i'd rather spend my time roleplaying instead of countinuing to grind "just incase" i've not got my skill gain yet
that certainty you've skilled up is far more respectful of a player's time, which is priceless in the seasonanal model, since it will inevitably end

It wouldn't be game breaking for me, it might even be more immersive.

It's like when you make a move in chess and then later realize why it wasn't a good move and learn not to do that again.

Or when you're in the shower after BJJ practice and suddenly think to yourself, "oh, I shouldn't put my arm there anymore".

Quote from: AKawaiiBear on June 10, 2024, 08:48:54 AMi'd rather spend my time roleplaying instead of countinuing to grind "just incase" i've not got my skill gain yet
that certainty you've skilled up is far more respectful of a player's time, which is priceless in the seasonanal model, since it will inevitably end

Some of us aren't looking for "skill gain." We're looking to finally beat our sparring partner. Or we're looking to be able to avoid our sparring partner constantly disarming us.  We might be looking to successfully skin that gurth, because we need to be able to acquire more gurth fat for the Salarr orders. We could be needing to get the price of silk down as far as possible, because it looks like Aide Susie likes our work and wants to buy more of it, but she doesn't get paid enough to cover the FULL undiscounted price of the raw materials AND the finished product.

In other words - we're playing the game, hoping to improve, because our characters want to do more things, or do what they already do more efficiently. Not because we, the players, are looking for the coded clicker to tell us we did good and now get a treat.

It kind of sounds like there's a decent amount of consensus on this.  A range of acceptance of the idea from lukewarm to "Yes!!" - and a desire to have the ability to turn off the notification for those who might find it distracting.

I will say that I feel like the "jumpstart" option that we now have is going to make this conversation a lot different. In my experience, part of the reason for the grind on skills is that when a character first starts they are kind of useless at everything.   The roleplaying and interaction becomes so much more fun once you're at least decent at a few things.  Before that, you almost don't want to interact with people because you're just so awful at the things that oftentimes your concept has you at least OK at.

When I'm at that point with a new character, I do find myself checking skills often and focusing on skill gains because I just want to get them to a point where they are good enough at things to be relevant.  With the new system, I don't see having to do that anymore, which I think will be typing "skill" less often.

I will say that if we do add something like this, it will be very helpful for newer players.  There is a STEEP learning curve for this game and if we can help them out a bit without removing the mystery and discovery, I think that's a good thing. 

Quote from: Lizzie on June 10, 2024, 08:43:17 AM

Quote from: Riev on June 09, 2024, 11:07:26 PMThe game uses a hidden dice system, so how do you KNOW you are improving, and aren't on a run of good dice rolls? I suspect you're either intuiting it based on the time you've played and staffed the game, or you are "generally aware" of an improvement.

Would I be correct in saying, then, that you don't "know" you advanced. You're intuiting it because you're "fighting better" or "using fewer tools". So what you know is that in some instances, you aren't failing.

Outside of that, I am still thinking at this point that with all the toggles and nosaves and such that at some point there will need to be multiple help files just to explain what you're turning on or off.

Consistency. This isn't rocket science. In real life, when I shoot at a target with my recurve bow at 40 yards, I know I'm improving because I am finding it easier to *consistently* hit the bullseye, than I did for the past month. I notice that all of THIS month, I'm not missing as much. The dice roll is the variables - wind, how "true" the target has been placed to face me, whether or not a bug has flown into the path of the target (I once shot through a beetle and stuck it to the outer edge of the bullseye), all the random things that can happen when you're shooting a bow in real life - those are the dice.

DESPITE the variables - I am more consistently succeeding. When I try a more challenging target - say, 50 yards, I notice that my shot, after adjusting my aim and finger placement for trajectory (there's a science to it), my 50-yard shot is almost exactly as "not impressive" as my 40-yard shot was, all last month.

In the game, when I used to bounce a knife off a gurth's shell CONSISTENTLY half the time the code had me engaged in combat with the thing, and my hits were doing just nicking and "hit" messages, I noticed the following month that I'm only bouncing maybe 1/4 of the time. Or maybe even only 1/8th of the time. My hits are more consistent, and I'm "wounding" the critter more often, and much quicker, for the whole month compared to how I did last month. I'm also able to dodge and parry its bites. I'm not getting hit hard at all anymore, and when it does make contact, it's only for 1-2hps each time. Compared with last month, when I was getting hit for many more 3-6 hit points than I was 1-3 hit points, and it's sometimes clipping me hard for 7-8 hit points.

That's how I know I've improved. I know, because I pay attention.

In RL, you have a lot more indicators to let you know if you're good or not.  You feel the wind, you can see the small differences in an exact bullseye vs nearly a bullseye.  You have a better feel and understanding of your own body.  You don't have "staff" judging whether what you said was realistic in the setting.  You're not trying to "act" one way while reality is a different way (roleplaying).  If you talk about numbers in RL, no one gets on to you, "I hit the bullseyes 9 out of 10 times, so I'm that's 90% accuracy!".  I'm not saying we shouldn't do these things in an RPI game, I'm just trying to point out the differences from understanding your ability in RL.

I'm probably doing a bad job explaining myself, but a text-based game just doesn't have the ability to provide the kind of feedback to someone that RL does.  Heck, it doesn't even have the ability to provide the kind of feedback to someone that a video game does.  As a result, you sometimes have to make concessions to make up for the lack of ability to provide input to people.

Personally, I'm kind of ambivalent towards this idea.  I can totally understand the arguments to both sides, and they're good arguments, too.  Good cases are being made on either side!

Quote from: Athapaxis on June 10, 2024, 11:32:26 AMI will say that if we do add something like this, it will be very helpful for newer players.  There is a STEEP learning curve for this game and if we can help them out a bit without removing the mystery and discovery, I think that's a good thing. 

IMO this is a good reason all on its own to make a change of this nature.

Also, indicators of skill increase provide a dopamine hit to the brain. Providing dopamine hits makes games more sticky and fun. Stickiness and fun are how we get and retain players. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving players' brains what they are seeking, and there's plenty that's right with it. It's just literally a chemical reaction in the body, why not leverage it?

QuoteWhen I'm at that point with a new character, I do find myself checking skills often and focusing on skill gains because I just want to get them to a point where they are good enough at things to be relevant.

This is common. This is a problem for a role playing game.

Telling players when they can stop grinding a specific skill isn't going to fix the problem. It's going to lead to longer time in the sparring ring as you're incentivized to wait for all your combat skills to get a check mark. Players may walk away from that sparring session with a dopamine hit, but it'd have been better if they were enjoying the roleplay part of the game and not the OOC skill-up part. Roleplay memories last, characters do not.

Fixing the actual problem is complex. The recently boosted subclasses and broadened advanced start help a lot. But until people feel like they can engage and RP out of char gen in spite of their low skills, the problem will persist.

Quote from: Agent_137 on June 10, 2024, 03:02:31 PMIt's going to lead to longer time in the sparring ring as you're incentivized to wait for all your combat skills to get a check mark.

This part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

That aside, we already spend a long time in the sparring ring counting to ten, or counting to three, or whatever we think may be "enough fails". What if we KNEW we got it on the 1, and can move on to more things?

Quote from: Riev on June 10, 2024, 03:10:03 PMThis part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

In speaking with staff of 'other muds' who implemented this exact change, they said that it does actually reduce how much time people are spending sparring vs other RP.

It does increase the phenomenon of homing in on the most effective methods, though. Whether or not that's undesirable is up to personal opinion.

We could push this suggestion in the opposite direction, and put huge delays on when skill levels actually say they've improved when you check your skills.  Or maybe when you're high on a certain spice and think you're invincible, you THINK your skills are really awesome but they aren't (falsely showing higher level in skills than actual) or maybe if your character has low self esteem, you think all your skills are bad.  Just make it all totally random and unpredictable!   

Quote from: Halaster on June 10, 2024, 03:44:19 PM

Quote from: Riev on June 10, 2024, 03:10:03 PMThis part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

In speaking with staff of 'other muds' who implemented this exact change, they said that it does actually reduce how much time people are spending sparring vs other RP.

I'm glad their experience is what I expect, but the way that quoted made it seem like I expect the opposite.

I think people already spend a lot of time sparring to get "as many fails as they feel they can" whereas this could lend to already knowing you got the fail and you can move on quicker.


That said? I personally like the RP you can have during sparring, resting, and such. I know I am in the minority, but I would still rather everyone know we got our Guard training done for the day so lets go get drunk and 'tok pile that mouthy breed at the Gaj.

I am absolutely loving the changes just announced!

One question I had, is the 6 hours listed in help skills for skill timers IG hours or RL hours?

Quote from: Riev on June 10, 2024, 03:10:03 PMThis part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

That aside, we already spend a long time in the sparring ring counting to ten, or counting to three, or whatever we think may be "enough fails". What if we KNEW we got it on the 1, and can move on to more things?

Well I wasn't thinking of just one skill, but multiple weapon skills, parry, flee, kick, etc for both you and your sparring partner(s).

I'm not worried about my time in the sparring ring. I'm worried that this indicates a player and staff acceptance of the grind.

But the added transparency is good. Maybe it'll make the grind more fun so it's not a grind. Or maybe it'll make the slow combat skill grind more obvious and people will want more changes. That's what's good about transparency.


PS
lol the skill transparency changes dropped while I was writing this.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60487.0.html

So yeah, happy to see the increased transparency, the learn skill to reduce grind even more, and the spell-branch-info. Great stuff. See you in the sparring ring where hopefully we all get fails quickly and can head to the bar!

I like that it's a step forward, but my main issue is that it might confuse new players. If the + lasts six hours, then it might make them think that they cant raise it until it goes away. I understand not wanting to make it exact so people use it as a power-gaming tool, but I think there could be some sort of middle ground?

The only thing the really stops people from grinding is when they think they have reached max poential.

If we are going this route, for these reasons, I strongly recommend adding an indicator for when max potential for the skill has been reached.

You guys - we're 5 days away from where instead of talking about all of this stuff we can try it out.  I'm freaking excited!! 

I seriously think we may be about to witness some of the best Arm we've ever seen.