Skill Increase Notification

[Windstorm]

I've seen skill increase notifications happen in multiple other games that were (some more and some less) similar to the RPI format. I think Armageddon is in fact the lone holdout anywhere that totally refuses to tell you this.

My experience everywhere else is that it improved roleplay. People spent less time grinding.

I believe Armageddon would benefit from the same.

[Patuk]

I, too, would appreciate this immensely.

[dumbstruck]

Same. It makes things a lot easier. Knowing that there's a chance you don't get the skill the first time always makes me want to push for a second just in case. I'd rather just know. Also when people do incredibly unrealistic shit and see that it doesn't actually help, maybe they will do something else.

[Agent_137]

Or hide skill levels cough cough

I know that won't happen tho. 

Maybe there's a way to indicate skill progression that doesn't inject ooc so frequently into gameplay?

[Lizzie]

Or hide skill levels cough cough

I know that won't happen tho. 

Maybe there's a way to indicate skill progression that doesn't inject ooc so frequently into gameplay?

There is. You know you're better because - you're better.  Slashing skill: you can tell you're better because you notice that you don't miss as often, and when you hit, you hit harder more often. Bludgeoning: your weapon doesn't "bounce" off the opponent as often, and you "reel" your opponent more often.  Crafting: you can make more things with a raw material than you could yesterday, OR you succeed more often with stuff you had failed with regularly, up until today.  When things are easier to succeed with, OR when you branch a new skill, OR when your success is superior to yesterday's success, you know you're getting better.

[dumbstruck]

Or hide skill levels cough cough

I know that won't happen tho. 

Maybe there's a way to indicate skill progression that doesn't inject ooc so frequently into gameplay?

I think that as long as it's a permadeath game that's heavily gated by skill in many areas (by the lethality of content), people are going to keep trying, that and so long as skills branch on trees, people will try and branch their skills because they just can't start with everything the guild and subguild confer. If they did, I'd use about half as many skills about half as much or less.

[Agent_137]

good point. Remove branching instead!

I'm not being sarcastic. It's another hack and slash 1990s legacy that doesn't do us any favors as an RPI.

[dumbstruck]

good point. Remove branching instead!

I would be all over this. I wouldn't mind if proficiency was much slower if skills weren't tiered such that you had to master one to get another.

[bracken]

Upskill notification could be toggleable?

[Windstorm]

To me it represents a small-but-immense playability improvement and would be something that would go a long way towards retaining new players by making things less arcane.

I'd take a side of no branching along with it, excepting perhaps superkillmoves. Backstab and sap can stay branching.

[Kavrick]

I've played other muds that tell you when you get skill ups, it has literally never reduced the quality of RP or resulted on more powergaming. Knowing when your skills increase does nothing but give a nice Quality of Life improvement and increases player retention because I know it seems silly, but 'funny number going up' is a simple enough reward that it keeps people invested, tons of games do this.

Showing when you get gains also is a good improvement to the game's notoriously bad new-player experience, as at least this way new players will actually know if they're doing something right.

[Usiku]

This is something we've discussed a fair bit on our side. While it's currently on hold, I imagine we'll revisit it after the launch. I am strongly against an OOC note that actually pops up, as this isn't something we do and some players may find it very jarring, even if you personally don't. My suggestion is that for those eagerly hoping for a skill increase, we add a small icon, like an asterisk (*) or an uppy arrow thing (^), next to a skill in the skill interface if it has increased in the last 10 minutes or so. This way, you can type 'skill' periodically and check for yourself if it's important to you.

[Kavrick]

This is something we've discussed a fair bit on our side. While it's currently on hold, I imagine we'll revisit it after the launch. I am strongly against an OOC note that actually pops up, as this isn't something we do and some players may find it very jarring, even if you personally don't. My suggestion is that for those eagerly hoping for a skill increase, we add a small icon, like an asterisk (*) or an uppy arrow thing (^), next to a skill in the skill interface if it has increased in the last 10 minutes or so. This way, you can type 'skill' periodically and check for yourself if it's important to you.

I actually think this is a pretty great middle ground, I like it!

[Usiku]

In retrospect I think that might have been Ursun's idea originally, but that's the idea I preferred!

[Dresan]

I don't think an uptick message is necessary for a couple of reasons.


It is actuallly more of a gambling mechanic in games that takes away from this one, in the same way character levels would.

If this was implemented in any form people would quickly understand why it is also redundant. The moment you failed at something, it would uptick, some variety would exist but not very much. The 'You failed' is already the uptick message people are looking for in most cases.

That said, I would like to make branching easier across the board though for all skills. And do recommend adding astrisk when the skill is at max potential for your class/subclass, that would actually be beneficial.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I think people might be focusing on the numbers and the skillups themselves more than being immersed in the world and even using the crafting (or practice) as potential RP opportunities.

Maybe if you're just in the learning phase and are one to give up easily, you stop for the day on your first fail. Or perhaps, if you're more determined, you might fail four or five times before you finally decide to stop. You may also be motivated to stop early due to shortage of materials and a desire to conserve them. There could be various factors that motivate your characters and affect their behaviors.. but I think an OOC notification that you got a skillup shouldn't be one of them.

[Armaddict]

I've seen skill increase notifications happen in multiple other games that were (some more and some less) similar to the RPI format. I think Armageddon is in fact the lone holdout anywhere that totally refuses to tell you this.

For better or worse, Armageddon is never really the place that did things just because they were being done elsewhere.  It's always kept to its own standards.  For strengths, that keeps it uniquely its own.  It can make it a place where certain values being maintained is an oasis for people who don't particularly like the trends of other centers.  For weakness, that does mean it is often lagging behind on change while the game feels out the impacts of those changes.

Basically, being a standout or not following the path of other games is not a convincing argument historically, though it -can- stimulate discussion by staff members who are of the same mind anyway.

[Kavrick]

Anybody that knows literally anything about game design will tell you that the idea that it's bad to look at other games that succeed and take from them is actually insane. Any time there's any discussion about mechanics that could improve the game, you get the same camp of players who want literally no changes ever at all. "Arm is good because it's not like other games." is not a sentence I've heard anyone say unironically. Armageddon is good because of it's fantastic and unique theme, it's vast world to explore and the way it mixes mechanics and roleplay into an enjoyable experience. Armageddon isn't fun because of all the clunky and obscured mechanics.

I have personally attempted to get people from the younger generations (that I'm in) to try and play the game. Most of them dropped the game because of how clunky and unintuitive is. The whole hidden mechanics thing only ever rewards older players, not new ones. If anyone is going to straight up tell me 'Yeah I would stop playing the game if there was a ^ next to a skill I recently got an increase for' then I would heavily doubt anything else they have to say.

Anyone saying that Armageddon is a good game because of how oocly inconvenient it is to play are just insulting all the work that's been put in for everything else.

[MarshallDFX]

I nuked a bunch of posts following from one that was insulting everybody.  Sorry to those who were saying non-rule breaking things that I blasted into moderation - I just don't think we need to argue the rudeness and I am somewhat short on time and wanted to clean it up.

(for what it's worth, I agree with the premise of a skill-up notice.  Could always have a toggle or make your client gag it if you hate it)

thread locked for now

[CirclelessBard]

I took some time to review the moderated posts for MarshallDFX and added back in the posts that seemed okay to add back in. I made my decisions based on whether they were replying to a rule-breaking post.

Please keep in mind the Community Rules and report content you believe is breaking the rules rather than reply to it.

Thank you! Thread will be unlocked shortly.

[Halaster]

Anybody that knows literally anything about game design will tell you that the idea that it's bad to look at other games that succeed and take from them is actually insane.

Anyone saying that Armageddon is a good game because of how oocly inconvenient it is to play are just insulting all the work that's been put in for everything else.

Agreed.  Which is why it's great no one in this thread said these things!

We don't intentionally say "Well, because some other game did it, we're not!".  As Armaddict explained, we don't make a change just because "everyone else is doing it".  Rather, we make a change because we decide that a specific change is good for us to make.  If there's something that "every other game like Arm is doing", we'll certainly have a think about it and decide if it's good for us, too.  But we base that decision on the merits of the change and the vision we have for the game, not because it's popular.  Granted, the popularity of something can help inspire the need to look into it, but that's about it.

[Kavrick]

We don't intentionally say "Well, because some other game did it, we're not!".  As Armaddict explained, we don't make a change just because "everyone else is doing it".  Rather, we make a change because we decide that a specific change is good for us to make.  If there's something that "every other game like Arm is doing", we'll certainly have a think about it and decide if it's good for us, too.  But we base that decision on the merits of the change and the vision we have for the game, not because it's popular.  Granted, the popularity of something can help inspire the need to look into it, but that's about it.

I agree with this, perhaps I said what I said in a heavy-handed manner. But I'd want to say that I don't think other games doing something is either a reason for or against making changes for armageddon. I just personally think that no game should be designed in a vacuum, references and looking at other games is just another part of healthy game development.

[Riev]

The idea of putting a character after a skill that "has failed recently" or "is ready to be failed" doesn't alleviate the issue. It still makes people spam skills every minute to check exactly what their 'timer' is. Any way someone can glean these "secretive code structures" will happen.

If the problem is that it ruins your immersion that someone breaks your barrier and the game responds with "You have learned how to maintain a stronger barrier!" is jarring ... I don't know. I'm playing a game, I'm not immersing myself like those people so I can't speak for them. What I CAN speak for is that there are so many "nosaves" and "toggles" that you almost should consider 'packages'. RP Package has these OOC communications off by default, BoneSwordz has then on by default.

[Agent_137]

letting your skill cooldowns dictate your character's activity is the wrong direction to go.  It's allowed but discouraged. Showing cooldowns would encourage it while still hiding the obtuse mechanics.

Better to be more public about the mechanics in help files so the ooc stays out of game. People could still let their cooldowns dictate their characters actions, but it'd be like it is now: discouraged and veiled with RP. 

The more we emphasize skill progression the more players will play for it instead of roleplay and then have a bad time when it goes up in smoke. 

[CirclelessBard]

I removed some arguments that were not a specific response to any particular player in the thread and didn't specifically have to do with the thread's topic. Per Rule 3, please keep the conversation on-topic. Thank you!

[Rokal]

I think a skill up notice would be nice.. but why not find a way to make it IC flavor?

player skills up.

You are feeling a bit more confident with <skill here>

Or, Player skills up,

You think "I think I'm getting better."

All sorts of potential flavor that actually also acts as a RP prompt for the character.

I think one of the most fun and healthiest ways to include these things is in an in-character way that can prompt roleplay alongside giving the player information.

[Riev]

That had been my suggestion prior. Rather than "your skill in lumberjacking has increased" it would be "You feel your skills in <skill name> have increased".

If this were to go in, keeping it as IC as possible would be best and it would make it easier for new people to understand the system. Rather than "yet another OOC mechanic to remember", its just an IC reminder that you got better at "slashing weapons".

[Mellifera]

This would be incredibly appreciated. Anything to tell us when to do less grinding and more RP.

[Cowboy]

RP and grinding can occur at the same time.

[Halaster]

randomize between:

force player think I sure do feel like I'm making some noticeable improvement to [skill]
force player feel proud of your improvement in the [skill] skill
echo player You can't help but notice that you are steadily improving in [skill]
force player think Is it just me or am I actually getting better at [skill]
etc


Note:  This is no way makes any commitment to adding these changes, it's just me contributing to the idea, albeit a bit silly

[Usiku]

Oddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

[Trevalyan]

As ever, the "silly" ideas have a great deal of merit. People will react appropriately: I can't imagine anyone but a mul in an existential crisis being upset about increasing weapons proficiency.

[Dune Bunny]

If making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

[Usiku]

If making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

It would be a whole lot more work coming up with a custom message for each skill, but that would definitely be a very slick implementation.

[Armaddict]

Just wanted to note here that my previous response was part of a larger response moderated because of what it responded to.

I'm totally okay with this and I don't think this is a case of some sort of tipping point, I was just worried about the justifications being used that were removed.

[Dune Bunny]

If making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

It would be a whole lot more work coming up with a custom message for each skill, but that would definitely be a very slick implementation.

As someone that plays way too many crafters, my post was a little rushed, and crafting skill biased, yes. XD

Making it something general for various categories might be the best way to do things?

Skills involving attacks, kick, weapon skills, etc. could all be appended with something like, 'but you recognized the mistake in your footing/swing/movements'. This might be a little confusing though, when you're not sure if it was the weapon skill, or fighting style that it counted for. Might be something we'd just have to deal with!

Things like parry/shield use could be 'but you can see how you need to adjust for the next attack.'

Listen style skills could be something to the effect of, "You could somewhat make it out, but not enough to catch it this time."

Watch: You saw some movement, but didn't quite catch it in time.

And so on. I'm definitely not volunteering to write them up, though. Just spitballing! =P

[dumbstruck]

If making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

It would be a whole lot more work coming up with a custom message for each skill, but that would definitely be a very slick implementation.

As someone that plays way too many crafters, my post was a little rushed, and crafting skill biased, yes. XD

Making it something general for various categories might be the best way to do things?

Skills involving attacks, kick, weapon skills, etc. could all be appended with something like, 'but you recognized the mistake in your footing/swing/movements'. This might be a little confusing though, when you're not sure if it was the weapon skill, or fighting style that it counted for. Might be something we'd just have to deal with!

Things like parry/shield use could be 'but you can see how you need to adjust for the next attack.'

Listen style skills could be something to the effect of, "You could somewhat make it out, but not enough to catch it this time."

Watch: You saw some movement, but didn't quite catch it in time.

And so on. I'm definitely not volunteering to write them up, though. Just spitballing! =P

You feel like you know where you went wrong at <skill>.

It's not elaborate but it does fit almost any use case.

[Lizzie]

As long as it can be toggled off AND players know to /not/ try to explain ICly or use OOC to tell other characters that they'll get that message and should look for it, then I still don't like it but it wouldn't affect me.

The code informing you of a coded improvement with an IC echo is just jarring, to me. I much prefer to know that I'm improved, because - I'm improved. Or, if I really care that much, I can type SKILLS and see for myself. I'm not very fond of the echo we already get when we bump up a skill level. It just reminds me way too much of another game when you'd absorb exp points and get an echo every time your "head clears."

[Riev]

"I much prefer to know that I'm improved, because - I'm improved." - @Lizzie

I can respect that, even though I disagree. My question is: How do you know you improved? By just "knowing" you're better, I get that... but how do you, Lizzie the Player, know you improved at your skill?

Previously your answer seems to be "because I have more skills" or "I'm hitting more often" but how do you KNOW?

[Lizzie]

"I much prefer to know that I'm improved, because - I'm improved." - @Lizzie

I can respect that, even though I disagree. My question is: How do you know you improved? By just "knowing" you're better, I get that... but how do you, Lizzie the Player, know you improved at your skill?

Previously your answer seems to be "because I have more skills" or "I'm hitting more often" but how do you KNOW?

I know because I pay attention when I'm sparring, or if my ranger-ish character hunts the same types of critter routinely. If I'm playing a burglar, I know because I break fewer picks, and I can pick more intricate locks. If I'm playing a crafter, I know because the "list of stuff I can craft with this item" is longer now than it was a minute ago.  If I'm curious about my climb skill I know because I can actually climb without slipping more often. Archery - I hit my target more often or use fewer arrows on a regular basis, to kill the same critter type that needed more arrows to kill all last week.

Just like in real life - I know I'm better at something because it's easier to succeed more often.

[Riev]

The game uses a hidden dice system, so how do you KNOW you are improving, and aren't on a run of good dice rolls? I suspect you're either intuiting it based on the time you've played and staffed the game, or you are "generally aware" of an improvement.

Would I be correct in saying, then, that you don't "know" you advanced. You're intuiting it because you're "fighting better" or "using fewer tools". So what you know is that in some instances, you aren't failing.

Outside of that, I am still thinking at this point that with all the toggles and nosaves and such that at some point there will need to be multiple help files just to explain what you're turning on or off.

[Halaster]

Oddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

[Lotion]

Oddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

As long as the initial implementation is designed with this in mine that extra work can be offloaded to whoever feels like doing it later!

[ABoredLion]

Oddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

>You learned your lesson, with that mistake.

Works for just about anything as an easy stand in while the rest of the work gets done. That may be North American slang though, so might not hit contextually for other groups. I'm not sure if "learn your lesson" is a phrase in other places for some kind of mistake made that taught you something.

Of course, also make it so the message only goes out once. Alternatively give no message, and just put it on the skill menu as a * by the skill as suggested by someone else and it will never have to come up in game.

[eska]

Oddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

This will allow people to grind their skills faster. I don't think this improves RP in any way.
Bynner recruit: Oh I just got my slashing improved in my first spar. I better use another weapon in the next round or sit it off and wait for the cooldown.

[Kavrick]

This will allow people to grind their skills faster. I don't think this improves RP in any way.

I don't see how it'll let them do it faster if it doesn't change skill timers. It just means they don't have to redundantly keep grinding a skill because they don't know if it increased.

[burble]

I like the idea of showing "*" beside skills that can be improved. It shows if you are off the timer and if you've maxxed out a skill. It also levels the playing field between new players and vets. After all, the goal is to attract and retain new players, right?

I played this game when the skill numbers were shown (0-100), when nothing was shown (just a list of skills) and this half-back method showing novice/apprentice/etc. Guess what, there was great fun and great stories under each system.

BUT, people were bonding over "secrets" about what constitutes a fail and how best to train since the beginning. The whole skillup system is a mini-game that some enjoy. I am not a fan of the skillup system. It's just an annoyance to get to the story for me (like the shell of a brazil nut).

Anyway, I am hoping the game succeeds so any change that makes the experience better for new players, I am all for it.

[Mellifera]

For the idea of showing a * or an ^ next to skills that have been increased, instead of it being a set timer, like 10 minutes, until that goes away, I think it would be better if it reset when your skill is ready to be trained again, when a failure will actually increase your skill. That way you have some awareness of when training it again is worth it or a waste of time that could otherwise be spent focusing on roleplay.

[eska]

This will allow people to grind their skills faster. I don't think this improves RP in any way.

I don't see how it'll let them do it faster if it doesn't change skill timers. It just means they don't have to redundantly keep grinding a skill because they don't know if it increased.

I will help me increase the skills faster.

[Lizzie]

The game uses a hidden dice system, so how do you KNOW you are improving, and aren't on a run of good dice rolls? I suspect you're either intuiting it based on the time you've played and staffed the game, or you are "generally aware" of an improvement.

Would I be correct in saying, then, that you don't "know" you advanced. You're intuiting it because you're "fighting better" or "using fewer tools". So what you know is that in some instances, you aren't failing.

Outside of that, I am still thinking at this point that with all the toggles and nosaves and such that at some point there will need to be multiple help files just to explain what you're turning on or off.

Consistency. This isn't rocket science. In real life, when I shoot at a target with my recurve bow at 40 yards, I know I'm improving because I am finding it easier to *consistently* hit the bullseye, than I did for the past month. I notice that all of THIS month, I'm not missing as much. The dice roll is the variables - wind, how "true" the target has been placed to face me, whether or not a bug has flown into the path of the target (I once shot through a beetle and stuck it to the outer edge of the bullseye), all the random things that can happen when you're shooting a bow in real life - those are the dice.

DESPITE the variables - I am more consistently succeeding. When I try a more challenging target - say, 50 yards, I notice that my shot, after adjusting my aim and finger placement for trajectory (there's a science to it), my 50-yard shot is almost exactly as "not impressive" as my 40-yard shot was, all last month.

In the game, when I used to bounce a knife off a gurth's shell CONSISTENTLY half the time the code had me engaged in combat with the thing, and my hits were doing just nicking and "hit" messages, I noticed the following month that I'm only bouncing maybe 1/4 of the time. Or maybe even only 1/8th of the time. My hits are more consistent, and I'm "wounding" the critter more often, and much quicker, for the whole month compared to how I did last month. I'm also able to dodge and parry its bites. I'm not getting hit hard at all anymore, and when it does make contact, it's only for 1-2hps each time. Compared with last month, when I was getting hit for many more 3-6 hit points than I was 1-3 hit points, and it's sometimes clipping me hard for 7-8 hit points.

That's how I know I've improved. I know, because I pay attention.

[AKawaiiBear]

i'd rather spend my time roleplaying instead of countinuing to grind "just incase" i've not got my skill gain yet
that certainty you've skilled up is far more respectful of a player's time, which is priceless in the seasonanal model, since it will inevitably end

[roughneck]

It wouldn't be game breaking for me, it might even be more immersive.

It's like when you make a move in chess and then later realize why it wasn't a good move and learn not to do that again.

Or when you're in the shower after BJJ practice and suddenly think to yourself, "oh, I shouldn't put my arm there anymore".

[Lizzie]

i'd rather spend my time roleplaying instead of countinuing to grind "just incase" i've not got my skill gain yet
that certainty you've skilled up is far more respectful of a player's time, which is priceless in the seasonanal model, since it will inevitably end

Some of us aren't looking for "skill gain." We're looking to finally beat our sparring partner. Or we're looking to be able to avoid our sparring partner constantly disarming us.  We might be looking to successfully skin that gurth, because we need to be able to acquire more gurth fat for the Salarr orders. We could be needing to get the price of silk down as far as possible, because it looks like Aide Susie likes our work and wants to buy more of it, but she doesn't get paid enough to cover the FULL undiscounted price of the raw materials AND the finished product.

In other words - we're playing the game, hoping to improve, because our characters want to do more things, or do what they already do more efficiently. Not because we, the players, are looking for the coded clicker to tell us we did good and now get a treat.

[Athapaxis]

It kind of sounds like there's a decent amount of consensus on this.  A range of acceptance of the idea from lukewarm to "Yes!!" - and a desire to have the ability to turn off the notification for those who might find it distracting.

I will say that I feel like the "jumpstart" option that we now have is going to make this conversation a lot different. In my experience, part of the reason for the grind on skills is that when a character first starts they are kind of useless at everything.   The roleplaying and interaction becomes so much more fun once you're at least decent at a few things.  Before that, you almost don't want to interact with people because you're just so awful at the things that oftentimes your concept has you at least OK at.

When I'm at that point with a new character, I do find myself checking skills often and focusing on skill gains because I just want to get them to a point where they are good enough at things to be relevant.  With the new system, I don't see having to do that anymore, which I think will be typing "skill" less often.

I will say that if we do add something like this, it will be very helpful for newer players.  There is a STEEP learning curve for this game and if we can help them out a bit without removing the mystery and discovery, I think that's a good thing. 

[Halaster]

The game uses a hidden dice system, so how do you KNOW you are improving, and aren't on a run of good dice rolls? I suspect you're either intuiting it based on the time you've played and staffed the game, or you are "generally aware" of an improvement.

Would I be correct in saying, then, that you don't "know" you advanced. You're intuiting it because you're "fighting better" or "using fewer tools". So what you know is that in some instances, you aren't failing.

Outside of that, I am still thinking at this point that with all the toggles and nosaves and such that at some point there will need to be multiple help files just to explain what you're turning on or off.

Consistency. This isn't rocket science. In real life, when I shoot at a target with my recurve bow at 40 yards, I know I'm improving because I am finding it easier to *consistently* hit the bullseye, than I did for the past month. I notice that all of THIS month, I'm not missing as much. The dice roll is the variables - wind, how "true" the target has been placed to face me, whether or not a bug has flown into the path of the target (I once shot through a beetle and stuck it to the outer edge of the bullseye), all the random things that can happen when you're shooting a bow in real life - those are the dice.

DESPITE the variables - I am more consistently succeeding. When I try a more challenging target - say, 50 yards, I notice that my shot, after adjusting my aim and finger placement for trajectory (there's a science to it), my 50-yard shot is almost exactly as "not impressive" as my 40-yard shot was, all last month.

In the game, when I used to bounce a knife off a gurth's shell CONSISTENTLY half the time the code had me engaged in combat with the thing, and my hits were doing just nicking and "hit" messages, I noticed the following month that I'm only bouncing maybe 1/4 of the time. Or maybe even only 1/8th of the time. My hits are more consistent, and I'm "wounding" the critter more often, and much quicker, for the whole month compared to how I did last month. I'm also able to dodge and parry its bites. I'm not getting hit hard at all anymore, and when it does make contact, it's only for 1-2hps each time. Compared with last month, when I was getting hit for many more 3-6 hit points than I was 1-3 hit points, and it's sometimes clipping me hard for 7-8 hit points.

That's how I know I've improved. I know, because I pay attention.

In RL, you have a lot more indicators to let you know if you're good or not.  You feel the wind, you can see the small differences in an exact bullseye vs nearly a bullseye.  You have a better feel and understanding of your own body.  You don't have "staff" judging whether what you said was realistic in the setting.  You're not trying to "act" one way while reality is a different way (roleplaying).  If you talk about numbers in RL, no one gets on to you, "I hit the bullseyes 9 out of 10 times, so I'm that's 90% accuracy!".  I'm not saying we shouldn't do these things in an RPI game, I'm just trying to point out the differences from understanding your ability in RL.

I'm probably doing a bad job explaining myself, but a text-based game just doesn't have the ability to provide the kind of feedback to someone that RL does.  Heck, it doesn't even have the ability to provide the kind of feedback to someone that a video game does.  As a result, you sometimes have to make concessions to make up for the lack of ability to provide input to people.

Personally, I'm kind of ambivalent towards this idea.  I can totally understand the arguments to both sides, and they're good arguments, too.  Good cases are being made on either side!

[Gimfalisette]

I will say that if we do add something like this, it will be very helpful for newer players.  There is a STEEP learning curve for this game and if we can help them out a bit without removing the mystery and discovery, I think that's a good thing. 

IMO this is a good reason all on its own to make a change of this nature.

Also, indicators of skill increase provide a dopamine hit to the brain. Providing dopamine hits makes games more sticky and fun. Stickiness and fun are how we get and retain players. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving players' brains what they are seeking, and there's plenty that's right with it. It's just literally a chemical reaction in the body, why not leverage it?

[Agent_137]

When I'm at that point with a new character, I do find myself checking skills often and focusing on skill gains because I just want to get them to a point where they are good enough at things to be relevant.

This is common. This is a problem for a role playing game.

Telling players when they can stop grinding a specific skill isn't going to fix the problem. It's going to lead to longer time in the sparring ring as you're incentivized to wait for all your combat skills to get a check mark. Players may walk away from that sparring session with a dopamine hit, but it'd have been better if they were enjoying the roleplay part of the game and not the OOC skill-up part. Roleplay memories last, characters do not.

Fixing the actual problem is complex. The recently boosted subclasses and broadened advanced start help a lot. But until people feel like they can engage and RP out of char gen in spite of their low skills, the problem will persist.

[Riev]

It's going to lead to longer time in the sparring ring as you're incentivized to wait for all your combat skills to get a check mark.

This part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

That aside, we already spend a long time in the sparring ring counting to ten, or counting to three, or whatever we think may be "enough fails". What if we KNEW we got it on the 1, and can move on to more things?

[Halaster]

This part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

In speaking with staff of 'other muds' who implemented this exact change, they said that it does actually reduce how much time people are spending sparring vs other RP.

[Roon]

It does increase the phenomenon of homing in on the most effective methods, though. Whether or not that's undesirable is up to personal opinion.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

We could push this suggestion in the opposite direction, and put huge delays on when skill levels actually say they've improved when you check your skills.  Or maybe when you're high on a certain spice and think you're invincible, you THINK your skills are really awesome but they aren't (falsely showing higher level in skills than actual) or maybe if your character has low self esteem, you think all your skills are bad.  Just make it all totally random and unpredictable!   

[Riev]

This part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

In speaking with staff of 'other muds' who implemented this exact change, they said that it does actually reduce how much time people are spending sparring vs other RP.

I'm glad their experience is what I expect, but the way that quoted made it seem like I expect the opposite.

I think people already spend a lot of time sparring to get "as many fails as they feel they can" whereas this could lend to already knowing you got the fail and you can move on quicker.


That said? I personally like the RP you can have during sparring, resting, and such. I know I am in the minority, but I would still rather everyone know we got our Guard training done for the day so lets go get drunk and 'tok pile that mouthy breed at the Gaj.

[cnemus]

I am absolutely loving the changes just announced!

One question I had, is the 6 hours listed in help skills for skill timers IG hours or RL hours?

[Agent_137]

This part I have often disagreed with. I don't feel that it does, and nobody has proof that it does other than "probably".

That aside, we already spend a long time in the sparring ring counting to ten, or counting to three, or whatever we think may be "enough fails". What if we KNEW we got it on the 1, and can move on to more things?

Well I wasn't thinking of just one skill, but multiple weapon skills, parry, flee, kick, etc for both you and your sparring partner(s).

I'm not worried about my time in the sparring ring. I'm worried that this indicates a player and staff acceptance of the grind.

But the added transparency is good. Maybe it'll make the grind more fun so it's not a grind. Or maybe it'll make the slow combat skill grind more obvious and people will want more changes. That's what's good about transparency.


PS
lol the skill transparency changes dropped while I was writing this.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60487.0.html

So yeah, happy to see the increased transparency, the learn skill to reduce grind even more, and the spell-branch-info. Great stuff. See you in the sparring ring where hopefully we all get fails quickly and can head to the bar!

[Kavrick]

I like that it's a step forward, but my main issue is that it might confuse new players. If the + lasts six hours, then it might make them think that they cant raise it until it goes away. I understand not wanting to make it exact so people use it as a power-gaming tool, but I think there could be some sort of middle ground?

[Dresan]

The only thing the really stops people from grinding is when they think they have reached max poential.

If we are going this route, for these reasons, I strongly recommend adding an indicator for when max potential for the skill has been reached.

[Athapaxis]

You guys - we're 5 days away from where instead of talking about all of this stuff we can try it out.  I'm freaking excited!! 

I seriously think we may be about to witness some of the best Arm we've ever seen.