So Mul's and Thyrzn are currently what I refer too as our "super mundane" races, but even then both of them are VERY weird. They aren't what I'd call mundane outside of guild requirements.

I had a thought that I'm still fleshing out, but I wanted to place a suggestion here of the idea's basic premise.

In the new levels of Karma, I would like to see essentially "Mundane Points" added in, that can be spent by a pure mundane class and race. So like Human, Dwarf, Half-Elf, and Maybe City Elf. And zero magicker classes, not even touched. These would represent a form of advance start that would be open to all without spec app.

Every 3 levels you'd gain a point, starting with 1 point. You get a choice of 5 options with these points.

For 1 point, you can get a stat bump in a stat of choice. Rolled TERRIBAD in one of your stats, but AI in the rest? Now you can compensate for that. OR increase those AI's even further.

For 2 points, you could have your starting money added too by half. Nothing else just more gear.

For 3 points, you could have your starting money doubled, and open up into a shop with above average gear, compared to the below average of the normal starting shop. With the caveat that when you leave this shop. you are set to your starting money amount again and cannot re-enter it.

For 3 points, you can bump all stats by one.

And for all your points at 9 karma(4), you could get what I call, an advanced template, which would bump 2 of your stats at random, and advance all your main job skills to around journeyman average, branching 2 of the more key skills in your class if they branch.(Stalker would branch poisoning, and hunt for example.)

In my mind this would allow players who have done a LOT of mundane play, to advance quicker, and get out the gates faster. And possibly allow mundane classes and races the appeal of the higher karma requiring classes and races.

What's the purpose of this?  Incentivize players who don't care about playing magickers to care about the karma system?

Feels like this proposed design would allow Karma to make mundane classes more powerful than those with less Karma, creating inequality where there was none before.  Why not allow specific mundane options to be gated behind Karma instead, such as the currently available Militia Private options that are currently special app.

I appreciate the thought into this but this would essentially be a bunch of people pandering for mundane buffs.  Magick is supposed to be more powerful and unbalancing.

The only way to mundane better is time and training, stats for sure matter but skill trumps them quickly.

Quote from: wizturbo on November 16, 2023, 06:50:55 PMWhat's the purpose of this?  Incentivize players who don't care about playing magickers to care about the karma system?

Feels like this proposed design would allow Karma to make mundane classes more powerful than those with less Karma, creating inequality where there was none before.  Why not allow specific mundane options to be gated behind Karma instead, such as the currently available Militia Private options that are currently special app.

Goal was to create something like those systems but without the need for staff intervention for each and every one.

Without overpowering them much as well.

The issue with those spec app options is again, they are gated behind spec apps for a reason. This is an attempt to generalize them.

And yes, the goal is to make players who don't care for magic, have a reason to care about the karma system. As well as offering a lever to tamp down on bad behavior of those people with.

Considering magickers can do FOIC things to stats within a couple days of play. I find the idea of a passive single bump to a stat not that over powering.

What about social roles for higher karma players? Let people app in a junior Salarri merchant or a junior noble to work under an established one. As it stands, the karma system does very little for someone who primarily engages in crafting or politics. There are other routes to take. Us social people need love too!

Quote from: adri on November 16, 2023, 07:05:26 PMWhat about social roles for higher karma players? Let people app in a junior Salarri merchant or a junior noble to work under an established one. As it stands, the karma system does very little for someone who primarily engages in crafting or politics. There are other routes to take. Us social people need love too!

Love these ideas as well.

Opening up spec or role apps for these would be good as well. Allowing them at 1 Karma is a good idea. With like 3 karma for a full member of the house and so on.

I'd love to start as a junior merchant, or a junior aide of a noble house. Being assigned to my first posting under the current merchant/noble.

That's not something we can do in the current setup. And it's a gap that's severely needed to be covered.

You could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

Quote from: adri on November 16, 2023, 07:30:46 PMYou could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

They struggle to even get folks to apply to be Byn Sergeants, you think there are people who are gonna be able to support two GMHs times three without being the same six players consistently?

Quote from: Pariah on November 16, 2023, 07:40:19 PM

Quote from: adri on November 16, 2023, 07:30:46 PMYou could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

They struggle to even get folks to apply to be Byn Sergeants, you think there are people who are gonna be able to support two GMHs times three without being the same six players consistently?

Byn leadership is different from basically any other posting in the game. This is a bad comparison.

Especially as ideally this would be an optional spec app, which are limited. Yes it could end up with the same 8 people, constantly in those roles. But I trust staff enough to tell people to play some other shite.

Quote from: Beytildana on November 16, 2023, 07:45:02 PM

Quote from: Pariah on November 16, 2023, 07:40:19 PM

Quote from: adri on November 16, 2023, 07:30:46 PMYou could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

They struggle to even get folks to apply to be Byn Sergeants, you think there are people who are gonna be able to support two GMHs times three without being the same six players consistently?

Byn leadership is different from basically any other posting in the game. This is a bad comparison.

Especially as ideally this would be an optional spec app, which are limited. Yes it could end up with the same 8 people, constantly in those roles. But I trust staff enough to tell people to play some other shite.

100% But I more meant the Byn Sergeant has more utility, more use than a second GMH family member.  They can be used a multitude of ways plus run contracts.  What is two merchants gonna do?  Argue about undercutting one another?  Feels sorta like overkill with GMH family members, think it would be better used to expand what the employees can do without sponsored roles.  Like letting crafters place orders and sell shit off the warehouse NPCs without their hand being held by the merchant.

It's not about getting people to play these roles as it is allowing them the option to. I know personally, I'd love the option.

Quote from: adri on November 16, 2023, 07:49:15 PMIt's not about getting people to play these roles as it is allowing them the option to. I know personally, I'd love the option.

Just curious, have you put in a role application for your second gmh and they denied it?  I think it's sorta like nobles, so few people wanna do it, if the concept works they might make miracles happen.

Quote from: Pariah on November 16, 2023, 07:53:56 PM

Quote from: adri on November 16, 2023, 07:49:15 PMIt's not about getting people to play these roles as it is allowing them the option to. I know personally, I'd love the option.

Just curious, have you put in a role application for your second gmh and they denied it?  I think it's sorta like nobles, so few people wanna do it, if the concept works they might make miracles happen.

Nah, not a bad idea really- but why not make it known that it can be done if it's an option? Sometimes, I don't want to play another indie crafter or GMH grunt. Blooded merchants are a totally different beast.

I would like to have non-player power associated with a karma ladder, rather than stronger characters.

Stuff like:
Additional Custom Craft per month (must be non-unique, non-clan)
Access to suggest-edit helpfiles (with approval required for change)
Armageddon.org email address.

Quote from: mansa on November 16, 2023, 08:58:54 PMI would like to have non-player power associated with a karma ladder, rather than stronger characters.

Stuff like:
Additional Custom Craft per month (must be non-unique, non-clan)
Access to suggest-edit helpfiles (with approval required for change)
Armageddon.org email address.

Ooooh, I can think of more of these too.

One of the other reasons I suggested player power here, was because a lot of people complain that mundane's are... MUCH weaker than Magickers to the point of them being unable to even compete in certain spheres.

So the thought was to add some equalization, or at least reduce some of the grindset of being a mundane.

Perhaps rather than stat boosts. Have things like, "Ally(Race)" and get given a MORTAL(Non-respawning) friendly body guard you can have placed in your apartment for example. Things that aren't direct player power but can add utility or theme to a character. Starting with a pet tame Jakhal or Rat in the Labyrinth. Things like that. And if you and it live long enough you can give it more than a generic description. Etc.

Or possibly more niche things, like adding a flag to a character that might not other wise have it. But obviously not any of the OP super powered flags like quit wilderness and so on.

It really is just a thought experiment at this point. And comments like yours and Adri's are ones I quite like, because they take my thoughts in new directions.

Quote from: adri on November 16, 2023, 07:30:46 PMYou could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

I have been asking for this since like April and instead got 'if you have karma you can app for it on a rolecall'. So yes, please.

I intensely hate the idea of boosting stats under any circumstances and I hope that never becomes a thing. Boosting things like starting skill levels, starting cash, clan rank etc. is fine, everyone has a chance to accomplish that through playing the game. Stat boosts just give you an objectively and permanently superior character. I know that when I try out a new RP game and see that senior players can buy benefits that surpass what my char can ever reach, without any drawbacks or added obligations to counterbalance the advantages, I log out immediately and never come back. It's the same reason why pay2win is universally despised in conventional gaming communities.

Karma should be for roles that require experience to play, or roles that are so powerful that only players who have proven trustworthy should play them. It shouldn't just be a ticket to statistically superior chars. Races, sponsored roles and non-mundane classes come with caveats, obligations, risks and opportunity costs, but +1 to all stats doesn't. It just makes you more likely to win in PvP and that's basically the only thing of any note that it affects. Senior players have enough advantages in that department as it is. On the contrary, I wish stats were less random so as to reduce the disparity in coded potential between characters who are otherwise cut from the same cloth.

Quote from: Triskelion on November 16, 2023, 10:35:20 PMI intensely hate the idea of boosting stats under any circumstances and I hope that never becomes a thing. Boosting things like starting skill levels, starting cash, clan rank etc. is fine, everyone has a chance to accomplish that through playing the game. Stat boosts just give you an objectively and permanently superior character. I know that when I try out a new RP game and see that senior players can buy benefits that surpass what my char can ever reach, without any drawbacks or added obligations to counterbalance the advantages, I log out immediately and never come back.

Karma should be for roles that require experience to play, or roles that are so powerful that only player who have proven trustworthy should play them. It shouldn't just be a ticket to statistically superior chars. Races and non-mundane classes come with caveats, risks and opportunity costs, but +1 to all stats doesn't. It just makes you more likely to win in PvP and that's basically the only thing of any note that it affects. Senior players have enough advantages in that department as it is. On the contrary, I wish stats were less random so as to reduce the disparity in coded potential between characters who are otherwise cut from the same cloth.

I agree with this a lot. It was mostly a thought to try and "equalize" between a high tier wilderness witch, and a higher tier mundane. I'm not sure how to add power without stats personally. And I suggested 2 or three other options that would add early power without violating the mundane idea.

Another idea I had, to kind of equalize, is possibly widening the diversity of the guilds, but again... And this is just my brain going cockeyed. That's probably another overhaul. Like the one Brokkr was proposing for guild overhauls.

Really though. Subclass mages just need to be removed without spec app, because otherwise they completely outstage and over play the mundane classes. And I think once we get to the point where they are all gone. We'll finally be at the point of equilibrium. So perhaps this system isn't quite needed, or it will be determined where it will be needed, as the system rolls out.

With the recently buffed subclasses, I think things are as equal as they really need to be. Mundanes aren't truly meant to be as powerful as magickers, after all. Playing a non-mundane also comes with the lifelong risk of getting killed just for what you are, as well as a general inability to play in certain areas of the game. Since mundane subclasses now grant one or two masteries and a slew of advanced skills, you give up something of real value when taking a magic subclass.

There's plenty of room for benefits that are meaningful but not unfair. Maybe options for things like starting with a weapon of 'very good' quality, for instance. Otherwise, maybe soft-advantages like being a bastard child of a noble house, and then the PC nobles of that house can choose how much or how little they want to acknowledge and support that bastard.

I generally think this game places a little too much emphasis on characters' coded capabilities, which in turn makes players care a lot about that, as opposed to game systems that emphasize who characters are. While you can spec-app a lot of things, you can only spec-app, what, twice a year? Why not take some of the non-class/race things players might apply for and make them into karma options instead? Bastard status, literacy, non-standard character sizes, things like that.

simple is better. current system is best.

Quote from: mansa on November 16, 2023, 08:58:54 PMAccess to suggest-edit helpfiles (with approval required for change)
Armageddon.org email address.

Anyone can suggest-edit helpfiles already, just put in a request. Sometimes they take a few weeks, but even when something is wrong in the helpfiles, even when I haven't provided an edit? Staff always managed to get to them eventually.

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

Quote from: Patuk on November 17, 2023, 03:13:21 AMI am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

Was mostly an attempt to think of something initially to spur discussion, we've already all basically agreed it's a terrible idea for stat bumps that is. The other stuff could be interesting.

It was legit just a way I was thinking to automate advanced starts. Really maybe the stat bumps should be replaced in the initial post with, a skill taken to max, or a skill taken half way to it's max for the class. I'm not sure which would be more... Okay.

Hard pass. Like the special app Byn Troopers and their ilk, anything to do with raising skills should strictly remain special app material. Raising stats should be off the table, period. Neither should ever be automated.

I do think more options ought to be available at various karma ranks (such as junior GMH member and so on) but that it still ought to take a special app for quality control.

Quote from: Patuk on November 17, 2023, 03:13:21 AMI am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

I can tell you that there are people who would jump into the game right now if they didn't need to invest 200 hours into getting anywhere with their character.

And secondly we already have templars, sorcerers and stat differentials. How bad are boosted mundane classes going to be, really?

Just make sure they stay out of the hands of the players that will abuse it.