How about a Mundane Karma Advancement Track?

[RheaGhe]

So Mul's and Thyrzn are currently what I refer too as our "super mundane" races, but even then both of them are VERY weird. They aren't what I'd call mundane outside of guild requirements.

I had a thought that I'm still fleshing out, but I wanted to place a suggestion here of the idea's basic premise.

In the new levels of Karma, I would like to see essentially "Mundane Points" added in, that can be spent by a pure mundane class and race. So like Human, Dwarf, Half-Elf, and Maybe City Elf. And zero magicker classes, not even touched. These would represent a form of advance start that would be open to all without spec app.

Every 3 levels you'd gain a point, starting with 1 point. You get a choice of 5 options with these points.

For 1 point, you can get a stat bump in a stat of choice. Rolled TERRIBAD in one of your stats, but AI in the rest? Now you can compensate for that. OR increase those AI's even further.

For 2 points, you could have your starting money added too by half. Nothing else just more gear.

For 3 points, you could have your starting money doubled, and open up into a shop with above average gear, compared to the below average of the normal starting shop. With the caveat that when you leave this shop. you are set to your starting money amount again and cannot re-enter it.

For 3 points, you can bump all stats by one.

And for all your points at 9 karma(4), you could get what I call, an advanced template, which would bump 2 of your stats at random, and advance all your main job skills to around journeyman average, branching 2 of the more key skills in your class if they branch.(Stalker would branch poisoning, and hunt for example.)

In my mind this would allow players who have done a LOT of mundane play, to advance quicker, and get out the gates faster. And possibly allow mundane classes and races the appeal of the higher karma requiring classes and races.

[wizturbo]

What's the purpose of this?  Incentivize players who don't care about playing magickers to care about the karma system?

Feels like this proposed design would allow Karma to make mundane classes more powerful than those with less Karma, creating inequality where there was none before.  Why not allow specific mundane options to be gated behind Karma instead, such as the currently available Militia Private options that are currently special app.

[Pariah]

I appreciate the thought into this but this would essentially be a bunch of people pandering for mundane buffs.  Magick is supposed to be more powerful and unbalancing.

The only way to mundane better is time and training, stats for sure matter but skill trumps them quickly.

[RheaGhe]

What's the purpose of this?  Incentivize players who don't care about playing magickers to care about the karma system?

Feels like this proposed design would allow Karma to make mundane classes more powerful than those with less Karma, creating inequality where there was none before.  Why not allow specific mundane options to be gated behind Karma instead, such as the currently available Militia Private options that are currently special app.

Goal was to create something like those systems but without the need for staff intervention for each and every one.

Without overpowering them much as well.

The issue with those spec app options is again, they are gated behind spec apps for a reason. This is an attempt to generalize them.

And yes, the goal is to make players who don't care for magic, have a reason to care about the karma system. As well as offering a lever to tamp down on bad behavior of those people with.

Considering magickers can do FOIC things to stats within a couple days of play. I find the idea of a passive single bump to a stat not that over powering.

[adri]

What about social roles for higher karma players? Let people app in a junior Salarri merchant or a junior noble to work under an established one. As it stands, the karma system does very little for someone who primarily engages in crafting or politics. There are other routes to take. Us social people need love too!

[RheaGhe]

What about social roles for higher karma players? Let people app in a junior Salarri merchant or a junior noble to work under an established one. As it stands, the karma system does very little for someone who primarily engages in crafting or politics. There are other routes to take. Us social people need love too!

Love these ideas as well.

Opening up spec or role apps for these would be good as well. Allowing them at 1 Karma is a good idea. With like 3 karma for a full member of the house and so on.

I'd love to start as a junior merchant, or a junior aide of a noble house. Being assigned to my first posting under the current merchant/noble.

That's not something we can do in the current setup. And it's a gap that's severely needed to be covered.

[adri]

You could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

[Pariah]

You could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

They struggle to even get folks to apply to be Byn Sergeants, you think there are people who are gonna be able to support two GMHs times three without being the same six players consistently?

[Beytildana]

You could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

They struggle to even get folks to apply to be Byn Sergeants, you think there are people who are gonna be able to support two GMHs times three without being the same six players consistently?

Byn leadership is different from basically any other posting in the game. This is a bad comparison.

Especially as ideally this would be an optional spec app, which are limited. Yes it could end up with the same 8 people, constantly in those roles. But I trust staff enough to tell people to play some other shite.

[Pariah]

You could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

They struggle to even get folks to apply to be Byn Sergeants, you think there are people who are gonna be able to support two GMHs times three without being the same six players consistently?

Byn leadership is different from basically any other posting in the game. This is a bad comparison.

Especially as ideally this would be an optional spec app, which are limited. Yes it could end up with the same 8 people, constantly in those roles. But I trust staff enough to tell people to play some other shite.

100% But I more meant the Byn Sergeant has more utility, more use than a second GMH family member.  They can be used a multitude of ways plus run contracts.  What is two merchants gonna do?  Argue about undercutting one another?  Feels sorta like overkill with GMH family members, think it would be better used to expand what the employees can do without sponsored roles.  Like letting crafters place orders and sell shit off the warehouse NPCs without their hand being held by the merchant.

[adri]

It's not about getting people to play these roles as it is allowing them the option to. I know personally, I'd love the option.

[Pariah]

It's not about getting people to play these roles as it is allowing them the option to. I know personally, I'd love the option.

Just curious, have you put in a role application for your second gmh and they denied it?  I think it's sorta like nobles, so few people wanna do it, if the concept works they might make miracles happen.

[adri]

It's not about getting people to play these roles as it is allowing them the option to. I know personally, I'd love the option.

Just curious, have you put in a role application for your second gmh and they denied it?  I think it's sorta like nobles, so few people wanna do it, if the concept works they might make miracles happen.

Nah, not a bad idea really- but why not make it known that it can be done if it's an option? Sometimes, I don't want to play another indie crafter or GMH grunt. Blooded merchants are a totally different beast.

[mansa]

I would like to have non-player power associated with a karma ladder, rather than stronger characters.

Stuff like:
Additional Custom Craft per month (must be non-unique, non-clan)
Access to suggest-edit helpfiles (with approval required for change)
Armageddon.org email address.

[RheaGhe]

I would like to have non-player power associated with a karma ladder, rather than stronger characters.

Stuff like:
Additional Custom Craft per month (must be non-unique, non-clan)
Access to suggest-edit helpfiles (with approval required for change)
Armageddon.org email address.

Ooooh, I can think of more of these too.

One of the other reasons I suggested player power here, was because a lot of people complain that mundane's are... MUCH weaker than Magickers to the point of them being unable to even compete in certain spheres.

So the thought was to add some equalization, or at least reduce some of the grindset of being a mundane.

Perhaps rather than stat boosts. Have things like, "Ally(Race)" and get given a MORTAL(Non-respawning) friendly body guard you can have placed in your apartment for example. Things that aren't direct player power but can add utility or theme to a character. Starting with a pet tame Jakhal or Rat in the Labyrinth. Things like that. And if you and it live long enough you can give it more than a generic description. Etc.

Or possibly more niche things, like adding a flag to a character that might not other wise have it. But obviously not any of the OP super powered flags like quit wilderness and so on.

It really is just a thought experiment at this point. And comments like yours and Adri's are ones I quite like, because they take my thoughts in new directions.

[dumbstruck]

You could even limit them, 2 merchants per house, 2 nobles per house.. a big complaint about GMH life is the burnout. Let two Kuracis exist and work together or agaisnt each other, however the two players decide to go. I think it'd be nothing but helpful and the "role call" merchant could still be the clan lead.

I have been asking for this since like April and instead got 'if you have karma you can app for it on a rolecall'. So yes, please.

[Triskelion]

I intensely hate the idea of boosting stats under any circumstances and I hope that never becomes a thing. Boosting things like starting skill levels, starting cash, clan rank etc. is fine, everyone has a chance to accomplish that through playing the game. Stat boosts just give you an objectively and permanently superior character. I know that when I try out a new RP game and see that senior players can buy benefits that surpass what my char can ever reach, without any drawbacks or added obligations to counterbalance the advantages, I log out immediately and never come back. It's the same reason why pay2win is universally despised in conventional gaming communities.

Karma should be for roles that require experience to play, or roles that are so powerful that only players who have proven trustworthy should play them. It shouldn't just be a ticket to statistically superior chars. Races, sponsored roles and non-mundane classes come with caveats, obligations, risks and opportunity costs, but +1 to all stats doesn't. It just makes you more likely to win in PvP and that's basically the only thing of any note that it affects. Senior players have enough advantages in that department as it is. On the contrary, I wish stats were less random so as to reduce the disparity in coded potential between characters who are otherwise cut from the same cloth.

[RheaGhe]

I intensely hate the idea of boosting stats under any circumstances and I hope that never becomes a thing. Boosting things like starting skill levels, starting cash, clan rank etc. is fine, everyone has a chance to accomplish that through playing the game. Stat boosts just give you an objectively and permanently superior character. I know that when I try out a new RP game and see that senior players can buy benefits that surpass what my char can ever reach, without any drawbacks or added obligations to counterbalance the advantages, I log out immediately and never come back.

Karma should be for roles that require experience to play, or roles that are so powerful that only player who have proven trustworthy should play them. It shouldn't just be a ticket to statistically superior chars. Races and non-mundane classes come with caveats, risks and opportunity costs, but +1 to all stats doesn't. It just makes you more likely to win in PvP and that's basically the only thing of any note that it affects. Senior players have enough advantages in that department as it is. On the contrary, I wish stats were less random so as to reduce the disparity in coded potential between characters who are otherwise cut from the same cloth.

I agree with this a lot. It was mostly a thought to try and "equalize" between a high tier wilderness witch, and a higher tier mundane. I'm not sure how to add power without stats personally. And I suggested 2 or three other options that would add early power without violating the mundane idea.

Another idea I had, to kind of equalize, is possibly widening the diversity of the guilds, but again... And this is just my brain going cockeyed. That's probably another overhaul. Like the one Brokkr was proposing for guild overhauls.

Really though. Subclass mages just need to be removed without spec app, because otherwise they completely outstage and over play the mundane classes. And I think once we get to the point where they are all gone. We'll finally be at the point of equilibrium. So perhaps this system isn't quite needed, or it will be determined where it will be needed, as the system rolls out.

[Triskelion]

With the recently buffed subclasses, I think things are as equal as they really need to be. Mundanes aren't truly meant to be as powerful as magickers, after all. Playing a non-mundane also comes with the lifelong risk of getting killed just for what you are, as well as a general inability to play in certain areas of the game. Since mundane subclasses now grant one or two masteries and a slew of advanced skills, you give up something of real value when taking a magic subclass.

There's plenty of room for benefits that are meaningful but not unfair. Maybe options for things like starting with a weapon of 'very good' quality, for instance. Otherwise, maybe soft-advantages like being a bastard child of a noble house, and then the PC nobles of that house can choose how much or how little they want to acknowledge and support that bastard.

I generally think this game places a little too much emphasis on characters' coded capabilities, which in turn makes players care a lot about that, as opposed to game systems that emphasize who characters are. While you can spec-app a lot of things, you can only spec-app, what, twice a year? Why not take some of the non-class/race things players might apply for and make them into karma options instead? Bastard status, literacy, non-standard character sizes, things like that.

[najdorf]

simple is better. current system is best.

[dunecrawler]

Access to suggest-edit helpfiles (with approval required for change)
Armageddon.org email address.

Anyone can suggest-edit helpfiles already, just put in a request. Sometimes they take a few weeks, but even when something is wrong in the helpfiles, even when I haven't provided an edit? Staff always managed to get to them eventually.

[Patuk]

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

[RheaGhe]

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

Was mostly an attempt to think of something initially to spur discussion, we've already all basically agreed it's a terrible idea for stat bumps that is. The other stuff could be interesting.

It was legit just a way I was thinking to automate advanced starts. Really maybe the stat bumps should be replaced in the initial post with, a skill taken to max, or a skill taken half way to it's max for the class. I'm not sure which would be more... Okay.

[whengravityfails]

Hard pass. Like the special app Byn Troopers and their ilk, anything to do with raising skills should strictly remain special app material. Raising stats should be off the table, period. Neither should ever be automated.

I do think more options ought to be available at various karma ranks (such as junior GMH member and so on) but that it still ought to take a special app for quality control.

[Master Color]

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

I can tell you that there are people who would jump into the game right now if they didn't need to invest 200 hours into getting anywhere with their character.

And secondly we already have templars, sorcerers and stat differentials. How bad are boosted mundane classes going to be, really?

Just make sure they stay out of the hands of the players that will abuse it.

[Patuk]

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

I can tell you that there are people who would jump into the game right now if they didn't need to invest 200 hours into getting anywhere with their character.

And secondly we already have templars, sorcerers and stat differentials. How bad are boosted mundane classes going to be, really?

Just make sure they stay out of the hands of the players that will abuse it.

Ever since we've had the new classes, 'getting anywhere' codedly isn't all that hard. Damn near everyone starts with parry, ride is easy to raise, you can just do stuff as you want.

This may not be enough for some people. Fair! I'm not opposed to seeing stuff get made quicker for these reasons. That's fine.

But do not gate it behind karma. Things are better when you can play a rando and be on a more-or-less equal playing field with other randos. I hate anything to do with changing that and will agitate against it where I can.

[Triskelion]

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

I can tell you that there are people who would jump into the game right now if they didn't need to invest 200 hours into getting anywhere with their character.

And secondly we already have templars, sorcerers and stat differentials. How bad are boosted mundane classes going to be, really?

Just make sure they stay out of the hands of the players that will abuse it.

But they would need to invest much more than 200 hours in order to get the karma it takes to get these objectively superior characters that you seem to advocate for. Nobody earns several points of karma in 200 hours of play. It takes much longer for a new player to earn karma than it would for them to raise their skills to a meaningful level or rise the ranks in a clan.

Stat boosts are not a question of keeping it out of the hands of players who will abuse it. You don't "abuse" +1 to all stats. You just get a codedly better character than everyone else who hasn't got that feature. That's precisely why it shouldn't be a karma option. If someone starts with a skill boost or a higher clan rank than recruit, that's not an unfair advantage. Someone starting with better stats definitely is, because that can't be earned through gameplay.

It's facetious to compare purchasing stat boosts to playing a templar or sorcerer. Those roles come with immense restrictions, obligations, scrutiny and risks. That's the tradeoff for the power they have. A templar is not free to wander the world and do whatever they want, and they're pretty limited in what they can do to raise their skills. A sorcerer is kill on sight literally everywhere in the entire gameworld and it's practically impossible for them to work with anybody who knows what they are. Neither of these roles can just be rolled up whenever you want, either. You have to wait for an opening AND then be granted permission.

It's really important for this game and its player retention that there's equity on the ground-level. It becomes a lot less appealing to play a human fighter if you know that there are other human fighters who have a higher potential than you can possibly achieve no matter what you do, how successful or diligent you are, or how exemplary your roleplay is. The players who would have the karma for these hypothetical stat boosts would already be senior players who know how to raise their skills and be in pole position for clan promotions, so it's not as if anyone can even hope to outpace them in these respects. It would just give them objectively superior characters with no caveats, and nothing good comes from that.

If we imagine that two characters had lived identical lives and end up rivals, and then a fight to the death means the one with karma-boosted stats wins because of that, in what game would that be fair? It's fair when a sorcerer is more powerful than you because they've had to survive as a lifelong exile, and even if spells are generally stronger than mundane skills, they did have to give up some non-magic potential in order to be a sorcerer. Maybe you both have the raider class but you got to spot his invisibility because your outdoorsman subclass gives you master scan while he's stuck with the low advanced scan of his main class and can't see you hiding. These things matter. They contribute to the overall balance of this game, and buying stat boosts with karma destroys that balance completely.

[adri]

Stat boosts aside, junior merchants and nobles would be huge. And I'd rather it a role app if you want to QC it - this would allow skill swaps and the like for characters and is more in line with how the karma system currently works.

[Pariah]

While I'm all for you guys playing whatever roles you like, specifically ones that historically nobody really wants to do (Nobles, GMH), outside a select few.

Do we have the playerbase to support them?  Will adding another Salarri or another Kadian do anything but give the existing GMH someone to hang out with or plot against?

What agency will the nobles have to actually do something versus just annoy me by making me bow at them in bars?

If you can provide positive answers to those questions, I would highly suggest you just toss an unsolicited role application in for the nooble or merchant of your choice, the worst they could say is no.  Stop waiting for permission, just do it.

[adri]

While I'm all for you guys playing whatever roles you like, specifically ones that historically nobody really wants to do (Nobles, GMH), outside a select few.

Do we have the playerbase to support them?  Will adding another Salarri or another Kadian do anything but give the existing GMH someone to hang out with or plot against?

What agency will the nobles have to actually do something versus just annoy me by making me bow at them in bars?

If you can provide positive answers to those questions, I would highly suggest you just toss an unsolicited role application in for the nooble or merchant of your choice, the worst they could say is no.  Stop waiting for permission, just do it.

Okay, but the whole post is about adding mundane options to the karma track, not whether it's currently possible to!

Why is giving GMH players potential plot or allies a bad thing? I don't understand the contrarian attitude when it comes to giving people more options.

[Pariah]

Okay, but the whole post is about adding mundane options to the karma track, not whether it's currently possible to!

Why is giving GMH players potential plot or allies a bad thing? I don't understand the contrarian attitude when it comes to giving people more options.

I'm not really against it, just want to make sure there is gonna be some net positive to it.

I personally wish all the noble houses were open, Oash, Jal etc etc. (Fuck those northies) so I could abus-roleplay with them.

However, when I log in and see 20 players logged in at 7pm EST, I sorta think that we need more indians than chiefs.

[adri]

Okay, but the whole post is about adding mundane options to the karma track, not whether it's currently possible to!

Why is giving GMH players potential plot or allies a bad thing? I don't understand the contrarian attitude when it comes to giving people more options.

I'm not really against it, just want to make sure there is gonna be some net positive to it.

I personally wish all the noble houses were open, Oash, Jal etc etc. (Fuck those northies) so I could abus-roleplay with them.

However, when I log in and see 20 players logged in at 7pm EST, I sorta think that we need more indians than chiefs.

Cool, that much I can understand. From that standpoint, I get it. Struggling to find people is also a negative - and the roles I mentioned COULD be more compound centric than say.. a hunter or a witch might be.

[Coda]

I like the idea of karma letting you app in as a Byn Trooper/GMH hunter/GMH Crafter/Circle Bard/Atrium-Trained-Aide, heck even past-their-initiate period Guild member, or higher-ranked Elf-tribe character - skill bumps with temporary (but generally lengthy) clan-locks (where appropriate) similar to the current Byn Trooper system that staff hand-stat but without the requirement of a spec app or hand-statting. 

I absolutely don't like the original idea of adding mundane power boosts like stat bumps and such, that's not what karma is and misses the point of what it represents.

[Master Color]

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

I can tell you that there are people who would jump into the game right now if they didn't need to invest 200 hours into getting anywhere with their character.

And secondly we already have templars, sorcerers and stat differentials. How bad are boosted mundane classes going to be, really?

Just make sure they stay out of the hands of the players that will abuse it.

But they would need to invest much more than 200 hours in order to get the karma it takes to get these objectively superior characters that you seem to advocate for. Nobody earns several points of karma in 200 hours of play. It takes much longer for a new player to earn karma than it would for them to raise their skills to a meaningful level or rise the ranks in a clan.

Stat boosts are not a question of keeping it out of the hands of players who will abuse it. You don't "abuse" +1 to all stats. You just get a codedly better character than everyone else who hasn't got that feature. That's precisely why it shouldn't be a karma option. If someone starts with a skill boost or a higher clan rank than recruit, that's not an unfair advantage. Someone starting with better stats definitely is, because that can't be earned through gameplay.

It's facetious to compare purchasing stat boosts to playing a templar or sorcerer. Those roles come with immense restrictions, obligations, scrutiny and risks. That's the tradeoff for the power they have. A templar is not free to wander the world and do whatever they want, and they're pretty limited in what they can do to raise their skills. A sorcerer is kill on sight literally everywhere in the entire gameworld and it's practically impossible for them to work with anybody who knows what they are. Neither of these roles can just be rolled up whenever you want, either. You have to wait for an opening AND then be granted permission.

It's really important for this game and its player retention that there's equity on the ground-level. It becomes a lot less appealing to play a human fighter if you know that there are other human fighters who have a higher potential than you can possibly achieve no matter what you do, how successful or diligent you are, or how exemplary your roleplay is. The players who would have the karma for these hypothetical stat boosts would already be senior players who know how to raise their skills and be in pole position for clan promotions, so it's not as if anyone can even hope to outpace them in these respects. It would just give them objectively superior characters with no caveats, and nothing good comes from that.

If we imagine that two characters had lived identical lives and end up rivals, and then a fight to the death means the one with karma-boosted stats wins because of that, in what game would that be fair? It's fair when a sorcerer is more powerful than you because they've had to survive as a lifelong exile, and even if spells are generally stronger than mundane skills, they did have to give up some non-magic potential in order to be a sorcerer. Maybe you both have the raider class but you got to spot his invisibility because your outdoorsman subclass gives you master scan while he's stuck with the low advanced scan of his main class and can't see you hiding. These things matter. They contribute to the overall balance of this game, and buying stat boosts with karma destroys that balance completely.

Yeah I don't care. I just don't want to grind 200 hours to survive my first carru attack, mega scrab, zone refresh swarm etc.

It should be an option for players who put in the work to climb the karma ladder.

[dumbstruck]

It should be an option for people who don't play the game to grind on carru and want to roleplay.

The fact that the game caters so much harder to the people who come to grind on carru than the ones who come to RP is the reason why you find so many of one and so few of the other.

You build a system and people engage with it and the type of people who enjoy engaging with that will stick around and the ones who don't won't.

[Triskelion]

I am going to be clear as I can about what I think is important here:

Do not fuck with mundane characters. Do not strengthen them based on karma. For the love of God leave that playing field equal.

One thing that drew me to Armageddon, coming off an IRE MUD, was that people mostly start off in the same boat. I was new, but my humans, elves, half-elves were the same as anyone else's, just as they are now.

Do not change this please. Karma is not a rewards program. It is not a stat boost system. It is not your way of getting stronger characters because you 'earned' it. Special-apped Byn troopers and the like are one thing, that's fine. But PLEASE don't start boosting mundane PCs just because someone has a big number by their karma score.

I can tell you that there are people who would jump into the game right now if they didn't need to invest 200 hours into getting anywhere with their character.

And secondly we already have templars, sorcerers and stat differentials. How bad are boosted mundane classes going to be, really?

Just make sure they stay out of the hands of the players that will abuse it.

But they would need to invest much more than 200 hours in order to get the karma it takes to get these objectively superior characters that you seem to advocate for. Nobody earns several points of karma in 200 hours of play. It takes much longer for a new player to earn karma than it would for them to raise their skills to a meaningful level or rise the ranks in a clan.

Stat boosts are not a question of keeping it out of the hands of players who will abuse it. You don't "abuse" +1 to all stats. You just get a codedly better character than everyone else who hasn't got that feature. That's precisely why it shouldn't be a karma option. If someone starts with a skill boost or a higher clan rank than recruit, that's not an unfair advantage. Someone starting with better stats definitely is, because that can't be earned through gameplay.

It's facetious to compare purchasing stat boosts to playing a templar or sorcerer. Those roles come with immense restrictions, obligations, scrutiny and risks. That's the tradeoff for the power they have. A templar is not free to wander the world and do whatever they want, and they're pretty limited in what they can do to raise their skills. A sorcerer is kill on sight literally everywhere in the entire gameworld and it's practically impossible for them to work with anybody who knows what they are. Neither of these roles can just be rolled up whenever you want, either. You have to wait for an opening AND then be granted permission.

It's really important for this game and its player retention that there's equity on the ground-level. It becomes a lot less appealing to play a human fighter if you know that there are other human fighters who have a higher potential than you can possibly achieve no matter what you do, how successful or diligent you are, or how exemplary your roleplay is. The players who would have the karma for these hypothetical stat boosts would already be senior players who know how to raise their skills and be in pole position for clan promotions, so it's not as if anyone can even hope to outpace them in these respects. It would just give them objectively superior characters with no caveats, and nothing good comes from that.

If we imagine that two characters had lived identical lives and end up rivals, and then a fight to the death means the one with karma-boosted stats wins because of that, in what game would that be fair? It's fair when a sorcerer is more powerful than you because they've had to survive as a lifelong exile, and even if spells are generally stronger than mundane skills, they did have to give up some non-magic potential in order to be a sorcerer. Maybe you both have the raider class but you got to spot his invisibility because your outdoorsman subclass gives you master scan while he's stuck with the low advanced scan of his main class and can't see you hiding. These things matter. They contribute to the overall balance of this game, and buying stat boosts with karma destroys that balance completely.

Yeah I don't care. I just don't want to grind 200 hours to survive my first carru attack, mega scrab, zone refresh swarm etc.

It should be an option for players who put in the work to climb the karma ladder.

It already is. You can apply for skill boosts. Those are fair because the same result can be achieved through gameplay. I don't remember if there's a direct karma option to roll in with skill boosts without spending a spec-app on it, but that could become a thing.

Stat boosts don't really change anything in terms of reducing the need to raise skills. If anything, stats mostly become relevant once you are skilled and the stats start to make up the difference between you and that other dude whose skills probably got stuck around the same level.

There's a huge difference between skills and stats. Anyone can raise their skills in a wide variety of ways. Nobody can raise their stats in any way at all. As such, buying stat boosts with karma creates a haves and have-nots situation where those with karma simply win the game.

[Patuk]

Carru knocking you down (scran don't do this) can be remedied by riding around on ye standard issue inix. You don't deserve to get jumped 200 hours' worth of play ahead of people for failing to prepare yourself well, and neither does anyone else.

[Kaathe]

Carru knocking you down (scran don't do this) can be remedied by riding around on ye standard issue inix.

side note, true but having decent ride skill important for not getting kicked off when your inix tanks the hit like the brick shithouse he is.

What's going on in this thread? I agree the karma ladder doesn't help anyone who only plays mundanes. It's pretty bare bones, and muls are so isolated I can see mundane players settling happily into 6 karma.


1 karma: Half-elf, city elf, dwarf
2 karma: Desert elf, thryzn, GMH/noble roles
3 karma: Templar roles
4 karma:
5 karma:
6 karma: Half-giants
7 karma:
8 karma: Mul
9 karma:
10 karma: Psis and sorc roles

As a mundane player, I pointed this out early. I suggested similar things, and prods made it clear that karma will not be used as a way to boost skills or stats over those without it.

Opening advanced start to junior merchants and gmh hunters was also a no-go because you want your leadership to have a choice in their hiring and firing so they can build their own crew.  You don't want these limited slots filled OOCly. This was less of a hard no, but I don't see people advocating for leaders having zero say in their crew.

I can tell you that there are people who would jump into the game right now if they didn't need to invest 200 hours into getting anywhere with their character.

200 is an exaggeration, but I agree that mundanes should train fast. But hey, we're essentially there!

1. Advanced start for our primary combat guilds
2. Custom spec app skill boosts have always been available
3. have you SEEN the new mundane subguilds? They're starting at jman even in weapon skills, and it's not low jman.

What else should we do?

Is the goal of incentivizing mundane players with karma even important?

IMO if we're happy playing mundanes over and over, we're probably not fucking shit up. And remember that role applications involve reading account notes and talking to their recent staff. If you're kicking ass but not bothering with karma reviews, it'll be seen when you put in for those roles you want.

[Riev]

200 hours is only 8d played and often times the benchmark is 10d played or 6 weeks of RL play, whichever is the most time.

It isn't about the skills as it is the fact that even if you are skilled enough to fight mekillots with no issue, there is no incentive to be that mundane fighter, because some OTHER 'mundane fighter' also has fireballs.

There's just nothing to incentivize playing a mundane role UNLESS in a leadership/sponsored role and only then because staff won't LET you be magickal or nonmundane (usually). I don't know how to fix that in karma, other than having mundane-only boosts (to people with a mundane class or class = none). Whether its in stats, or in "(1) custom item that is somehow integral to your roleplay" or something.

[Kaathe]

because some OTHER 'mundane fighter' also has fireballs.

and if this were to change?

[Patuk]

Carru knocking you down (scran don't do this) can be remedied by riding around on ye standard issue inix.

side note, true but having decent ride skill important for not getting kicked off when your inix tanks the hit like the brick shithouse he is.

True, and not something that takes 200 hours. Or even twenty. Yeah.

[MarshallDFX]

Hi, I think this thread has taken a turn to the snark, so I removed part of an exchange to moderated. Be kind, presume the best of others, and you don't have to 'win' arguments and all that.

[Riev]

because some OTHER 'mundane fighter' also has fireballs.

and if this were to change?

I think it would make mundanes feel a bit more of a choice, than a relegation.

I think main-class magickers are and will always be more powerful, but at least semi-limiting their capabilities by a subclass lets mundanes not feel like a consolation.

[Pariah]

I don't think anyone is trying to make Magickers less powerful.  If they wanted to, they could easily do it a few different ways.

Playing a mage, once you get past the first little humps of shitty beginner spells, it supposed to make you scary.  Being mundane can be scary too, but it takes a long time.

Are we trying to limit the scariness factor of mages, or just trying to make mundanes equal to mages, which they aren't supposed to be?

[Coda]

I don't think anyone is trying to make Magickers less powerful.  If they wanted to, they could easily do it a few different ways.

Playing a mage, once you get past the first little humps of shitty beginner spells, it supposed to make you scary.  Being mundane can be scary too, but it takes a long time.

Are we trying to limit the scariness factor of mages, or just trying to make mundanes equal to mages, which they aren't supposed to be?

I agree with this. Mages can be scary alone, because the role is more isolating. Guess what you can do as a mundane that (should be? Is? This is always a discussion point, be the change if you think it isn't hard enough) is much harder for a mage that could multiply how scary you can be?

I think part of the problem is people want to play Mad Max, the solo wanderer who kills all threats easily. And that's just not theme or the game.

Mundanes don't need more power, they can make friends. Work on your social skills a bit instead of spamming bash scrab, and you'll go far.

[RheaGhe]

I don't think anyone is trying to make Magickers less powerful.  If they wanted to, they could easily do it a few different ways.

Playing a mage, once you get past the first little humps of shitty beginner spells, it supposed to make you scary.  Being mundane can be scary too, but it takes a long time.

Are we trying to limit the scariness factor of mages, or just trying to make mundanes equal to mages, which they aren't supposed to be?

I agree with this. Mages can be scary alone, because the role is more isolating. Guess what you can do as a mundane that (should be? Is? This is always a discussion point, be the change if you think it isn't hard enough) is much harder for a mage that could multiply how scary you can be?

I think part of the problem is people want to play Mad Max, the solo wanderer who kills all threats easily. And that's just not theme or the game.

Mundanes don't need more power, they can make friends. Work on your social skills a bit instead of spamming bash scrab, and you'll go far.

First: Mages can also make friends. In fact, I can't think of any high end mage in the last years I've played who didn't have at least one non-mage, or other mage accompanying them most times. If not 3 or 4.

Second: Being a mage can come with a slew of perks that a mundane would have to leverage some very important friends for, or just not be able to compete.

Third: Telling people to work on their social skills rather than spamming bash scrab, is very much denigrating the fact that people do try to socialize and team up. But to a large degree, there's whole mundane sections of the game dead. Or just flailing about bleeding people because there's nothing really interesting going on FOR mundane people.

[Lizzie]

And whose fault is that, that there's nothing really interesting going on FOR mundane people?

Try to meet folks to create a group: no one's around to meet.
Try to offer your grebbing/hunting skills to a GMH: no one's around to offer it to.
Try to give a reward to a grebber/hunter for doing something your noble/templar approves of: no one's around to reward
Try to chase a criminal: no criminals are doing anything worth chasing them over.

I say if you want more interesting things to happen, show up and make things more interesting. No one is impressed with your l33t skillz, if all you ever do with them is spam-practice or apartment-train and then go out killing mobs outside the gates all day.

[RheaGhe]

And whose fault is that, that there's nothing really interesting going on FOR mundane people?

Try to meet folks to create a group: no one's around to meet.

Or they are all magickers. Which is my point.

Try to offer your grebbing/hunting skills to a GMH: no one's around to offer it to.

Or they are all full with inactive players that when they are online sit barriered up or busy. I do not envy the current crop of merchants really. Also you could be a magicker and do this. Which is my point.

Try to give a reward to a grebber/hunter for doing something your noble/templar approves of: no one's around to reward

Or they aren't interested in interacting with a templar or noble. Also the grebber/hunter could also be a magicker. Which was my point.

Try to chase a criminal: no criminals are doing anything worth chasing them over.

Because the spaces criminals occupy are infested with magickers that don't tend to fuck around.

I say if you want more interesting things to happen, show up and make things more interesting.

Or be a magicker and be able to make interesting things happen yourself. With less effort. And less people required.

No one is impressed with your l33t skillz, if all you ever do with them is spam-practice or apartment-train and then go out killing mobs outside the gates all day.

This is a very charged statement. I would go on a limb and say maybe 1 in 20 people play like this. That said, there are literally certain factions that only allow you to spam practice all day.

Mundanes can make friends. Magickers can too.
Anything you can do on a Mundane, a hidden magicker can do just as well or better. Barring leadership roles that are explicitly forbidden from being magickers.

[Pariah]

It seems like there is an ooc worry about witches more than an IC one.

I've seen a few times that the hunters/grebbers might be witches.  Yeah, they might be, they also could be psionicists and other fucked up shit.

I personally, when I'm in a spot of hiring folks, or asked about dude A or B for hiring from a leader, I just sorta yolo it.  "They got skills?  They seem like they have their head on their shoulders?"

Treat the hidden magicker like the military used to do "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." is how I've always dealt with it.

Plus if you start to have suspicions on the dude, that's a plot to start following him, pay someone else to follow him, get a known gemmed to follow them and watch them, plots plots plots.

I've had some "very" successful (In clan relation) hunters/grebbers that nobody knew was a witch, I just did my shit on the sly and took precautions.  I also have never been the type of player that the moment my mana hits 100% to run and go drain it.  I practice it normally but not to the point I'm a mage before a man.  I'm always a man before a mage.

I've also had hidden magickers that get discovered like two days in, it happens it's a numbers game.  But I will say to most Templar's credit (in the south of course) they normally give you the whole, "Wear this gem or die ultimatum" and it's not like, "OMG you know six spells you lied to me DIE!" I think secretly they sorta respect the hustle.

To me, the problem of magicker versus mundane I think lies in the fact the only "accepted" magicker role, the gem is bogged with downsides and no upsides that I can't get into here.  If there were more employment options for gemmed then it wouldn't be horrible and some people like that ability to be outward about their I do magick shit, but I personally don't mind just being secretive about it then hitting you with a fireball when you fuck around and find out as I'm employed as a house hunter.

But I will say one thing I tend to do, which will probably 100% give me away if someone pays attention is drop subtle hints I'm different.  If I'm a water witch for instance, I'll often talk about how I have no problem keeping myself watered, and to good friends even sometimes offer to "fill their skin next time at my favorite wilderness water hole" (I'm not going to any wilderness waterhole.).  And I will say to their credit I've never been insta turned in by them for the coded give aways.

I also will do things that put me on the bleeding edge of discovery, oh you want me to do X and Y that has a huge chance of discovering me?  Yeah challenge accepted, because going and spamcasting in my apartment everytime my mana hits 100% is BORING AS FUCK.  I'd rather actually play the game and do the mage shit on the sly.  Sure I might not top out my spell list in two days played like other players who grind the fuck outta their magick, but I'm cool with that.

But ultimately the point I'm trying to make is assume everyone is normal till they give you reason not to, stop assuming everyone is a mage (even if they are) because your character wouldn't just run around Allanak thinking every Amos he runs into is some sekret witch.

[Lizzie]

Yeah you know Pariah is right (go ahead and shoot me now).

YOU know these are probably mages. Your character knows no such thing. Play your character. If you want things to be interesting FOR YOUR MUNDANE character (which was what I responded to, and quoted)...
Then play an interesting mundane character.

[RheaGhe]

Yeah you know Pariah is right (go ahead and shoot me now).

YOU know these are probably mages. Your character knows no such thing. Play your character. If you want things to be interesting FOR YOUR MUNDANE character (which was what I responded to, and quoted)...
Then play an interesting mundane character.

Pariah missed the point entirely.

My point was not that everyone is a secret witch.

My point is, that there is nothing you can argue a mundane can do, that a magicker can't do better.

[Pariah]

Yeah you know Pariah is right (go ahead and shoot me now).

YOU know these are probably mages. Your character knows no such thing. Play your character. If you want things to be interesting FOR YOUR MUNDANE character (which was what I responded to, and quoted)...
Then play an interesting mundane character.

Pariah missed the point entirely.

My point was not that everyone is a secret witch.

My point is, that there is nothing you can argue a mundane can do, that a magicker can't do better.

I understood what you were getting at.

But you can't plug a dam with your finger.

That's just one of the things that's part of nature in this game.  Witches will always be better at certain things.

I wholeheartedly WISH that someday they go back to all full guild witches for perspective Karma levels and make subguilds spec apps, so that less people use them as instant win roles.

They already started with the drov and viv classes, hopefully it continues.

[Coda]

Eh, people not understanding theme aside (Magick is scary, bad, and evil, but you also, ICly, know next to nothing about it) - mundanes are supposed to be the ones with groups against magickers who are more isolated.  That not always being true is just people rping badly, and should probably be monitored/commented on by staff. 

But it absolutely, hands down, doesn't mean that this thread where OP asks for +5 to strength or whatever just for being mundane is reasonable.  This thread has been mostly reasonable people who point out the docs, theme, world, and vibes all say magickers are outsiders.  And then the few people who prefer mundane roles and really, really want buffs.  The latter need to reassess why they play the role playing intensive game.  If it's just to be the strongest and bestest then Aardwolf might be more to their liking.  Karma isn't 'buffs' it's trust with roles that show greater understanding of the world, and staff trust that you'll play it properly because you do understand it.

Frankly, anyone asking for buffs for being mundane should get knocked right on down to 0, because it shows a clear and complete misunderstanding of the most basic theme and lore helpfiles.

But that's just me, and I'm frankly a bit exhausted of the 'give me +5 strength and fast-skill combat!' types who make the game less interesting.

[RheaGhe]

Eh, people not understanding theme aside (Magick is scary, bad, and evil, but you also, ICly, know next to nothing about it) - mundanes are supposed to be the ones with groups against magickers who are more isolated.  That not always being true is just people rping badly, and should probably be monitored/commented on by staff. 

But it absolutely, hands down, doesn't mean that this thread where OP asks for +5 to strength or whatever just for being mundane is reasonable.  This thread has been mostly reasonable people who point out the docs, theme, world, and vibes all say magickers are outsiders.  And then the few people who prefer mundane roles and really, really want buffs.  The latter need to reassess why they play the role playing intensive game.  If it's just to be the strongest and bestest then Aardwolf might be more to their liking.  Karma isn't 'buffs' it's trust with roles that show greater understanding of the world, and staff trust that you'll play it properly because you do understand it.

Frankly, anyone asking for buffs for being mundane should get knocked right on down to 0, because it shows a clear and complete misunderstanding of the most basic theme and lore helpfiles.

But that's just me, and I'm frankly a bit exhausted of the 'give me +5 strength and fast-skill combat!' types who make the game less interesting.

There are entire factions setup on the fringes which explicitly allow mundane to mix with magick. Either openly in the case of certain tribals. Or unopenly in the case of certain other groups.

There are explicitly factions within the cities, and positions that place magickers in groups with Mundanes.

The docs say magickers are outsiders, and to be feared. But they don't exclusively say that.

[Edited by Moderator]

The most ANYONE has suggested, is +1 to each stat. And that was me. AND I ADMITTED IT WAS DUMB... On page 1 or possibly the start of page 2. And said it was mostly just to get conversations started on just what karma could provide as a lever to allow players who might not care for magick or all the high tier races, to have an incentive to be used as a lever to care about Karma.

Which is a gap in the system as I saw it.

[Inklings]

I would like to have non-player power associated with a karma ladder, rather than stronger characters.

Stuff like:
Additional Custom Craft per month (must be non-unique, non-clan)



Access to suggest-edit helpfiles (with approval required for change)
Armageddon.org email address.

I love this idea. Idk about the email address, though, unless that would help facilitate approval from staff for the aforementioned things or others so as not to get lost in the sauce.

[mansa]

Don't post snide comments about moderation in the threads.  Those posts will just be moved to moderation.

This thread will be unlocked in a bit.

::edit::
Unlocked