So this got brought up in another threads and I didn't want to derail it so I figured I'd start a new one...

Quote from: creeper386 on February 20, 2023, 04:26:42 AM

Quote from: mansa on February 19, 2023, 08:54:58 PM
The frequent complaint from the playerbase is:
"A thief constantly tries to pickpocket me and fail, again and again, and yet I cannot catch them in the act."

I know the complaint. The solution I don't think is "we need more crimcode."

Thieves and other ill to do characters codedly and OOCily already just get crapped on, because of how I think in general stealth works and is just too insane.

I'd rather something like, "the more someone pick pockets the same person the more likely they are to not just fail, but critically fail."

Because I'm pretty sure I've had thieves follow me around town stealing out of my backpack. A tavern penalty doesn't stop thieving from being a problem, it just means thieving is less likely to happen in a tavern even though it's probably a great place for it.

I'm all my years playing here, I've never played a criminal PC that can codedly survive.

So I've read all sorts of tips and tricks, sorted through code releases in regard to the crimcode and all sorts of things to come up with the following nuggets.

It's best to attempt thievery at night, because if there isn't a soldier in an adjacent room, you have a chance of not getting wanted and then immediately ran at and murdered or thrown into a jail cell to be Templar'd after you're caught the second time by the same Templar.

We all know that everything in Arm is gained through failure.  But in this regard, it's super hard to fail and survive, at least that's my take on it.

Now have I been able to become an invisible stealth shadow that can't be found by anything short of magick, yes, but that's not the challenge really.  I've had that same master hide and sneaker go try to pickpocket a vendor in the middle of the night, with no soldier and get caught instantly, then wanted and have to sneak my way to (Insert non-guard area), to literally sit for hours if not real life days and that's really not living in my opinion.

I personally am what I would call an active player, I don't tend to idle in bars unless it's nighttime and I have nothing else to do, most of the time I'm connected to armageddon I'm actively crafting, killing shit, practicing some skill or casting spells (Sometimes all the above).

So where I've struggled with criminal based characters is that you literally have to get over the hump of getting caught each and everytime, failing but not getting wanted and avoid getting Templar'd for being a frequent flier in the dungeons.

So I've always sorta had a begrudging respect for those of you who actually make it over that hump but always wondered how.

Now the challenging part is a lot of this has to do with code, and I'm sure like everything else there are some twinky fucking things you can do, and I'm not trying to get those brought out here into public.  So I was wondering, is there anything that can be discussed here of how to realistically and non-twinky fuck play a criminal that actually can gain the skills to survive and thrive in one of the two city states?

Know an escape route is the best one.
Steal something, get caught, run off. Find your hidey hole (rinth, rooftops, others), and wait it out. Then try again. Yes, tedious. But so is waiting for your combat skills to raise.

Or, better yet, practice stealing on NPCs that won't make you wanted. Perhaps be ready for "Alternative" justice

But it's hard. I've found that being a leader is easier, that way your minions can just do the hard work for you.

1. Start out by trying to stay -off- the beaten path. There are NPCs (and PCs) who roam in all sorts of places, not just right in front of the bar, or at the most populated crossroads in the city.  Explore those places. Read the room descriptions (SO important). Look around in every available coded direction.  In other words, case the joint. Make a plan. Make another plan for failure. Then execute.

2. Don't spam-peek. Twice or thrice if you're sincerely trying to see what someone has worth stealing, sure. But if you're just trying to get your peek skill up, do it once. If you don't see anything then either you failed (at which you have likely moved up a smidge in skill and the timer won't let it budge again for awhile anyway), or your mark doesn't have anything you want to steal (in which case there's no point in peeking further).

3. Learn how to be more attentive toward others trying to steal near (or from) you.  You can learn - from a RP perspective - their techniques, methods, and what they did wrong when they fail.  What is happening when someone fails to see you reaching for his pocket? He is failing his perception skill check. You should probably learn a little more about what the intended victim experiences when he fails his perception checks. Increasing your own perception skills is always a good thing whether you're a victim or a thief.

4. Keep a couple hundred sids on you at all times so that in case you get caught - you have something to offer whoever caught you to "thank them for helping you be an upstanding citizen."

What Hestia said ... AND ...

Steal very lightweight things. Particularly in inventory. That sword may look great but you likely won't succeed unless you're at master and have very high agility.

Don't steal from vendors. Ever. It's an auto-fail.

In Allanak, if there's not a guard npc in your room or an adjacent room, then crimcode won't be activated on a fail.

There's two fails for theft: 1. You didn't get the item but nobody noticed. 2. Everyone noticed and your ass is in trouble.

The Gaj, while attractive, is for high skill thieves. Not for learning. There's guards EVERYWHERE and no easy escape. And if one player sees you, the entire city will know you are a thief. This may not matter, but if it does ... be aware.

As for escaping ... always escape upwards. You shouldn't be working on STEAL until you've gotten very good at CLIMB. Even if soldiers jump you, FLEE UP is a thing. Don't steal anywhere that there's not open ground that's free of guards between up and an up exit to a rooftop.

If you got dinged you will see in stat that you are wanted ONLY in a zone where crimcode exists. If you run into the rinth or up to a rooftop you won't know when it wears off, but generally 90 minutes is the norm.

If soldiers nab you, you don't HAVE TO go to jail. They will drag you extremely slowly from wherever you were caught down to the jail. So long as you have stamina to burn, you can attempt to break free. Do this especially in rooms where there is an up exit nearby, or only one soldier. The soldier you break free from will have a delay when you break free giving you time to run. PLUS, he won't be wielding a weapon so even if you're slow you won't get whammied.

Stealing is actually a lot harder than complaints on the GDB make it sound. There's a lot to it and it's difficult to learn. And your reward at master is a dagger worth 50 sid at the vendor and then player complaints filed and vaguebook whining on the GDB aimed at you.

Now do you want to talk about assassinations and how hard THEY are?

One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that criminals don't necessarily have to be antagonistic toward other pcs. The most successful criminal I'd ever had was one that stole almost exclusively from NPCs and used their ill begotten wealth to pay off Templars and influence people. Pick and choose your targets. Most PCs are usually remarkable - be a clever criminal that doesn't needlessly make enemies of remarkable people. Making a lifelong enemy of a mercenary probably isn't worth 100 sid.

If you're playing a loud and proud criminal mastermind that wants to take on law enforcement, you're probably going to lose.

Criminals are definitely one of the harder roles to play.  It's one where you really need to embrace the idea that you're going to die.  You aren't building a long-lived character, long-lived just kind of happens sometimes when you both play well AND circumstances line up.

Playing criminals is specifically about removing the feeling of safety from otherwise safe locations, and providing means and opportunity for those who cannot create means and opportunity.  It adds very important elements to city life...but in the end, you are fighting against crimcode(obvious), the population(the antagonist dogpile), and betrayal(forming groups with fellow criminals is building in necessary vulnerabilities).

A successful criminal is not necessarily long lived.  They're just someone who makes their mark in the city for long enough to help other people get things done, and keep people from feeling like the game is a PvE extravaganza.  That doesn't mean you're an asshole; it means you're making sure the world is alive in both directions, not just towards protecting you, but also harming you.

Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 01:09:25 PM


If soldiers nab you, you don't HAVE TO go to jail. They will drag you extremely slowly from wherever you were caught down to the jail. So long as you have stamina to burn, you can attempt to break free. Do this especially in rooms where there is an up exit nearby, or only one soldier. The soldier you break free from will have a delay when you break free giving you time to run. PLUS, he won't be wielding a weapon so even if you're slow you won't get whammied.

NPC soldiers have some special edges, I believe to allow them to actually threaten criminal PCs due to their lack of intellect. They can draw weapons and attack instantly. They will fuck you up quick.

From a roleplay perspective, jails are usually filled with various cutpurses and other lower tier miscreants so it always strikes me as a little unfair when a PC is thrown in jail and treated like they're the only person to have been caught in the past IRL week. Not trying to police the RP of any PC's in authoritative positions but it would be nice for them to take that into consideration.

The few failed criminals I've played have all died to either npc soldiers killing them as they try and flee or a Templar killing them after a few times in jail.

The issue with bribery is getting the coins to provide the bribe.

The early game economy is rough, you're dumped in a world with apprentice or novice forage, similar for combat.  Add in the fact that criminals are normally not able to hunt well due to absence of wilderness skills like direction sense, ride etc.

So to make the Sid to be able to bribe the Templar when you start actually failing at pickpocket or whatever is difficult.  So for that reason, I think criminals are super hard to play.

Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 01:09:25 PM
Now do you want to talk about assassinations and how hard THEY are?

I played an Assassin once in the olden days of Warriors and Rangers lol
Played her for 2 RL years, never killed anybody! hehehe Turns out they actually had a bitchin Templar's Aide skill-set!
Didn't hurt that I was decked out in 'don't fuck with me gear' and my name was Flay...

Oh wait, you meant Succeeding an Assassination.. Yeah that shit is Lightspeed Dicey!  The critical and limited timing you have to make your move (not miss!) and get away before mobs turn you into a puddle befitting a needy pot hole...  Well nobody really Teaches that...  Openly...

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

1) Vendors:. Either they can't be pickpocketed from, or the difficulty is so high it's not worth the effort.  So if relying on code only, don't try to steal from vendors. Unless you are so great you almost never fail and you want to fail in a controlled environment for training purposes.

2) Practicing theft by learning how to sneak stuff off the ground does provide a certain level of skill.  Consider doing that first before switching to life targets.

3)Only because the person who saw you was an NPC, does not mean you should disregard them. Don't just go to a different room and continue stealing, react to getting spotted the same way you would if it was a PC.

4)Don't look like a thief.  If you are decked out in city sneaking gear, don't be upset when anything and everything missing gets blamed on you. If you show yourself in public, you best be known for other source of income. Even if it means you bought those Obsidian shards and gems you just sold to a PC merchant in the view of the tavern gossips.

5)Theft is very powerful, but in itself is a net zero mechanic. Please use the skills creatively instead of destructively. If the total sum of your existence equals to the fact that nobody in the entire city can keep hold of a mount ticket, or a trinket in their apartment, and nothing else, then you are doing it wrong.


5)Fun and Content often plays a role in the effort other people go to find you out. If you are a 3 dimensional persona that steals sometimes that is interesting and engaging to play with, people will go out of their way to hire you, pay you off, or just ignore your antics.   

If you are a big mean stealing machine and nothing else, people will go to sherlock Holmes level deductions to confirm it's your fault, where you are at, where do you sleep, the level of softness your fecal matter is, and ultimately your exact height measurements with your head detached. 

Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 08:44:11 AM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

Shooting rats in crowded streets? What if you hit someone?

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 01:30:18 PM

Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 08:44:11 AM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

Shooting rats in crowded streets? What if you hit someone?

Thats what the breeds are for. They're not even really people, so you don't have to worry.

Now, if you want the REAL training on how to throw and shoot at someone, follow me into this totally-not-my-headquarters bar.

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 01:30:18 PM

Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 08:44:11 AM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

Shooting rats in crowded streets? What if you hit someone?

Don't quote me, cause I might be not recalling correctly, but I believe that there is a chance to hit others when you throw knives and shit.

I seem to remember trying to throw a poisoned knife at someone from an alley once and accidentally hitting and killing someone unintended.

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 22, 2023, 03:56:40 PM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 24, 2023, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 22, 2023, 03:56:40 PM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

On one of my very, very shortlived rinthers.  I knew a guy there that literally practiced it every in game day on various rinther npcs.  I always assumed he was gonna get yoinked by staff for being twinky with backstab, but it never happened.  Maybe even the staff don't like or care about rinthers hehe.

Yes, that is a coded method, but is it a thematic method? Not all assassins are homicidal psychos. Some do it for a cause, most do it for the sids. Hence my suggestion of npc assigned npc marks, which is more thematic imo. Imagine getting a mission like, "Kill this NPC. They have (insert) hair and are (insert) built. They were last seen in (insert) location. Bring back the head as proof of kill."

Wouldn't that be fun?

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 24, 2023, 12:53:29 PM
Yes, that is a coded method, but is it a thematic method? Not all assassins are homicidal psychos. Some do it for a cause, most do it for the sids. Hence my suggestion of npc assigned npc marks, which is more thematic imo. Imagine getting a mission like, "Kill this NPC. They have (insert) hair and are (insert) built. They were last seen in (insert) location. Bring back the head as proof of kill."

Wouldn't that be fun?

That would be cool, but if I remember right, all the rinthers PCs are clones of one another, they all look the same, but it's been years since I've been there.

As a note: on any Guild Leaders I've played, I have tried to tell people to "collect coins" from known NPCs that carry them. I give descriptions, I say "bring me their knife" or "I want one of their cufflinks".

People usually have the task done inside 10 minutes. There's only so many times I can send you after the same NPC before its going to be vNPCs.
Automating it sounds like a bad idea, when that NPC spawns inside the Mantis and you can't finish. I also think Arm has done well to shy away from automated quests outside simple jobs.

Principles of playing a successful, long-lived pickpocket:

1. Max your stealth skills before you even attempt to steal anything.

2. Stay away from people who can detect you.

3. Have a plausible cover story for how you make a living.

4. If the cops show up, leave. This is not modern Western civilization where you must be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

5. Give up on pickpocketing, join a clan, and only play your subclass.

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 24, 2023, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 22, 2023, 03:56:40 PM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

you can't backstab animals to raise backstab? you have to murder humanoids to raise the skill afaik.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on February 25, 2023, 11:34:02 PM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 24, 2023, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 22, 2023, 03:56:40 PM

Quote from: LidlessEye on February 22, 2023, 04:26:41 AM
I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

you can't backstab animals to raise backstab? you have to murder humanoids to raise the skill afaik.

This is entering Find Out IC area.

Ultimately, Backstab is not a skill meant to be easily practiced. It was created that way, for a reason. If you tried to use it on someone in a "sparring" match, and a Staff member saw it - You would get the shit slapped out of you and a repeated offense would see you lose access to the skill - And any class related to it, all together.

If Staff are that heavy handed about the skill being practiced in a less-than-lethal method, why would they implement features that allow you to practice it with even more ease?

No, part of playing a successful PC criminal is not tied to the relative increase to the Backstab/Sap skills.