Criminal PCs

[Pariah]

So this got brought up in another threads and I didn't want to derail it so I figured I'd start a new one...

The frequent complaint from the playerbase is:
"A thief constantly tries to pickpocket me and fail, again and again, and yet I cannot catch them in the act."

I know the complaint. The solution I don't think is "we need more crimcode."

Thieves and other ill to do characters codedly and OOCily already just get crapped on, because of how I think in general stealth works and is just too insane.

I'd rather something like, "the more someone pick pockets the same person the more likely they are to not just fail, but critically fail."

Because I'm pretty sure I've had thieves follow me around town stealing out of my backpack. A tavern penalty doesn't stop thieving from being a problem, it just means thieving is less likely to happen in a tavern even though it's probably a great place for it.

I'm all my years playing here, I've never played a criminal PC that can codedly survive.

So I've read all sorts of tips and tricks, sorted through code releases in regard to the crimcode and all sorts of things to come up with the following nuggets.

It's best to attempt thievery at night, because if there isn't a soldier in an adjacent room, you have a chance of not getting wanted and then immediately ran at and murdered or thrown into a jail cell to be Templar'd after you're caught the second time by the same Templar.

We all know that everything in Arm is gained through failure.  But in this regard, it's super hard to fail and survive, at least that's my take on it.

Now have I been able to become an invisible stealth shadow that can't be found by anything short of magick, yes, but that's not the challenge really.  I've had that same master hide and sneaker go try to pickpocket a vendor in the middle of the night, with no soldier and get caught instantly, then wanted and have to sneak my way to (Insert non-guard area), to literally sit for hours if not real life days and that's really not living in my opinion.

I personally am what I would call an active player, I don't tend to idle in bars unless it's nighttime and I have nothing else to do, most of the time I'm connected to armageddon I'm actively crafting, killing shit, practicing some skill or casting spells (Sometimes all the above).

So where I've struggled with criminal based characters is that you literally have to get over the hump of getting caught each and everytime, failing but not getting wanted and avoid getting Templar'd for being a frequent flier in the dungeons.

So I've always sorta had a begrudging respect for those of you who actually make it over that hump but always wondered how.

Now the challenging part is a lot of this has to do with code, and I'm sure like everything else there are some twinky fucking things you can do, and I'm not trying to get those brought out here into public.  So I was wondering, is there anything that can be discussed here of how to realistically and non-twinky fuck play a criminal that actually can gain the skills to survive and thrive in one of the two city states?

[zealus]

Know an escape route is the best one.
Steal something, get caught, run off. Find your hidey hole (rinth, rooftops, others), and wait it out. Then try again. Yes, tedious. But so is waiting for your combat skills to raise.

Or, better yet, practice stealing on NPCs that won't make you wanted. Perhaps be ready for "Alternative" justice

But it's hard. I've found that being a leader is easier, that way your minions can just do the hard work for you.

[Hestia]

1. Start out by trying to stay -off- the beaten path. There are NPCs (and PCs) who roam in all sorts of places, not just right in front of the bar, or at the most populated crossroads in the city.  Explore those places. Read the room descriptions (SO important). Look around in every available coded direction.  In other words, case the joint. Make a plan. Make another plan for failure. Then execute.

2. Don't spam-peek. Twice or thrice if you're sincerely trying to see what someone has worth stealing, sure. But if you're just trying to get your peek skill up, do it once. If you don't see anything then either you failed (at which you have likely moved up a smidge in skill and the timer won't let it budge again for awhile anyway), or your mark doesn't have anything you want to steal (in which case there's no point in peeking further).

3. Learn how to be more attentive toward others trying to steal near (or from) you.  You can learn - from a RP perspective - their techniques, methods, and what they did wrong when they fail.  What is happening when someone fails to see you reaching for his pocket? He is failing his perception skill check. You should probably learn a little more about what the intended victim experiences when he fails his perception checks. Increasing your own perception skills is always a good thing whether you're a victim or a thief.

4. Keep a couple hundred sids on you at all times so that in case you get caught - you have something to offer whoever caught you to "thank them for helping you be an upstanding citizen."

[Miradus]

What Hestia said ... AND ...

Steal very lightweight things. Particularly in inventory. That sword may look great but you likely won't succeed unless you're at master and have very high agility.

Don't steal from vendors. Ever. It's an auto-fail.

In Allanak, if there's not a guard npc in your room or an adjacent room, then crimcode won't be activated on a fail.

There's two fails for theft: 1. You didn't get the item but nobody noticed. 2. Everyone noticed and your ass is in trouble.

The Gaj, while attractive, is for high skill thieves. Not for learning. There's guards EVERYWHERE and no easy escape. And if one player sees you, the entire city will know you are a thief. This may not matter, but if it does ... be aware.

As for escaping ... always escape upwards. You shouldn't be working on STEAL until you've gotten very good at CLIMB. Even if soldiers jump you, FLEE UP is a thing. Don't steal anywhere that there's not open ground that's free of guards between up and an up exit to a rooftop.

If you got dinged you will see in stat that you are wanted ONLY in a zone where crimcode exists. If you run into the rinth or up to a rooftop you won't know when it wears off, but generally 90 minutes is the norm.

If soldiers nab you, you don't HAVE TO go to jail. They will drag you extremely slowly from wherever you were caught down to the jail. So long as you have stamina to burn, you can attempt to break free. Do this especially in rooms where there is an up exit nearby, or only one soldier. The soldier you break free from will have a delay when you break free giving you time to run. PLUS, he won't be wielding a weapon so even if you're slow you won't get whammied.

Stealing is actually a lot harder than complaints on the GDB make it sound. There's a lot to it and it's difficult to learn. And your reward at master is a dagger worth 50 sid at the vendor and then player complaints filed and vaguebook whining on the GDB aimed at you.

Now do you want to talk about assassinations and how hard THEY are?

[Lutagar]

One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that criminals don't necessarily have to be antagonistic toward other pcs. The most successful criminal I'd ever had was one that stole almost exclusively from NPCs and used their ill begotten wealth to pay off Templars and influence people. Pick and choose your targets. Most PCs are usually remarkable - be a clever criminal that doesn't needlessly make enemies of remarkable people. Making a lifelong enemy of a mercenary probably isn't worth 100 sid.

If you're playing a loud and proud criminal mastermind that wants to take on law enforcement, you're probably going to lose.

[Armaddict]

Criminals are definitely one of the harder roles to play.  It's one where you really need to embrace the idea that you're going to die.  You aren't building a long-lived character, long-lived just kind of happens sometimes when you both play well AND circumstances line up.

Playing criminals is specifically about removing the feeling of safety from otherwise safe locations, and providing means and opportunity for those who cannot create means and opportunity.  It adds very important elements to city life...but in the end, you are fighting against crimcode(obvious), the population(the antagonist dogpile), and betrayal(forming groups with fellow criminals is building in necessary vulnerabilities).

A successful criminal is not necessarily long lived.  They're just someone who makes their mark in the city for long enough to help other people get things done, and keep people from feeling like the game is a PvE extravaganza.  That doesn't mean you're an asshole; it means you're making sure the world is alive in both directions, not just towards protecting you, but also harming you.

[MeTekillot]

If soldiers nab you, you don't HAVE TO go to jail. They will drag you extremely slowly from wherever you were caught down to the jail. So long as you have stamina to burn, you can attempt to break free. Do this especially in rooms where there is an up exit nearby, or only one soldier. The soldier you break free from will have a delay when you break free giving you time to run. PLUS, he won't be wielding a weapon so even if you're slow you won't get whammied.

NPC soldiers have some special edges, I believe to allow them to actually threaten criminal PCs due to their lack of intellect. They can draw weapons and attack instantly. They will fuck you up quick.

[Gunnerblaster]

From a roleplay perspective, jails are usually filled with various cutpurses and other lower tier miscreants so it always strikes me as a little unfair when a PC is thrown in jail and treated like they're the only person to have been caught in the past IRL week. Not trying to police the RP of any PC's in authoritative positions but it would be nice for them to take that into consideration.

[Pariah]

The few failed criminals I've played have all died to either npc soldiers killing them as they try and flee or a Templar killing them after a few times in jail.

The issue with bribery is getting the coins to provide the bribe.

The early game economy is rough, you're dumped in a world with apprentice or novice forage, similar for combat.  Add in the fact that criminals are normally not able to hunt well due to absence of wilderness skills like direction sense, ride etc.

So to make the Sid to be able to bribe the Templar when you start actually failing at pickpocket or whatever is difficult.  So for that reason, I think criminals are super hard to play.

[perfecto]

Now do you want to talk about assassinations and how hard THEY are?

I played an Assassin once in the olden days of Warriors and Rangers lol
Played her for 2 RL years, never killed anybody! hehehe Turns out they actually had a bitchin Templar's Aide skill-set!
Didn't hurt that I was decked out in 'don't fuck with me gear' and my name was Flay...

Oh wait, you meant Succeeding an Assassination.. Yeah that shit is Lightspeed Dicey!  The critical and limited timing you have to make your move (not miss!) and get away before mobs turn you into a puddle befitting a needy pot hole...  Well nobody really Teaches that...  Openly...

[LidlessEye]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

[Riev]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

[Dar]

1) Vendors:. Either they can't be pickpocketed from, or the difficulty is so high it's not worth the effort.  So if relying on code only, don't try to steal from vendors. Unless you are so great you almost never fail and you want to fail in a controlled environment for training purposes.

2) Practicing theft by learning how to sneak stuff off the ground does provide a certain level of skill.  Consider doing that first before switching to life targets.

3)Only because the person who saw you was an NPC, does not mean you should disregard them. Don't just go to a different room and continue stealing, react to getting spotted the same way you would if it was a PC.

4)Don't look like a thief.  If you are decked out in city sneaking gear, don't be upset when anything and everything missing gets blamed on you. If you show yourself in public, you best be known for other source of income. Even if it means you bought those Obsidian shards and gems you just sold to a PC merchant in the view of the tavern gossips.

5)Theft is very powerful, but in itself is a net zero mechanic. Please use the skills creatively instead of destructively. If the total sum of your existence equals to the fact that nobody in the entire city can keep hold of a mount ticket, or a trinket in their apartment, and nothing else, then you are doing it wrong.


5)Fun and Content often plays a role in the effort other people go to find you out. If you are a 3 dimensional persona that steals sometimes that is interesting and engaging to play with, people will go out of their way to hire you, pay you off, or just ignore your antics.   

If you are a big mean stealing machine and nothing else, people will go to sherlock Holmes level deductions to confirm it's your fault, where you are at, where do you sleep, the level of softness your fecal matter is, and ultimately your exact height measurements with your head detached. 

[LidlessEye]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

Shooting rats in crowded streets? What if you hit someone?

[Riev]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

Shooting rats in crowded streets? What if you hit someone?

Thats what the breeds are for. They're not even really people, so you don't have to worry.

Now, if you want the REAL training on how to throw and shoot at someone, follow me into this totally-not-my-headquarters bar.

[Pariah]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide. Going out into the wilds to practise seems to be a bit meta, but unfortunately that seems to be the only means available as it is not possible (and unrealistic) to practise in a spar. After all, to cite an example, Cartel enforcers dont drive into the desert to shoot snakes and lizards. They probably use improvised shooting ranges or regular ones.

Fer a small, we'll replace them rats with breeds that -really- ain't keen on gettin' stabbed again today.

Shooting rats in crowded streets? What if you hit someone?

Don't quote me, cause I might be not recalling correctly, but I believe that there is a chance to hit others when you throw knives and shit.

I seem to remember trying to throw a poisoned knife at someone from an alley once and accidentally hitting and killing someone unintended.

[Gunnerblaster]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

[LidlessEye]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

[Pariah]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

On one of my very, very shortlived rinthers.  I knew a guy there that literally practiced it every in game day on various rinther npcs.  I always assumed he was gonna get yoinked by staff for being twinky with backstab, but it never happened.  Maybe even the staff don't like or care about rinthers hehe.

[LidlessEye]

Yes, that is a coded method, but is it a thematic method? Not all assassins are homicidal psychos. Some do it for a cause, most do it for the sids. Hence my suggestion of npc assigned npc marks, which is more thematic imo. Imagine getting a mission like, "Kill this NPC. They have (insert) hair and are (insert) built. They were last seen in (insert) location. Bring back the head as proof of kill."

Wouldn't that be fun?

[Pariah]

Yes, that is a coded method, but is it a thematic method? Not all assassins are homicidal psychos. Some do it for a cause, most do it for the sids. Hence my suggestion of npc assigned npc marks, which is more thematic imo. Imagine getting a mission like, "Kill this NPC. They have (insert) hair and are (insert) built. They were last seen in (insert) location. Bring back the head as proof of kill."

Wouldn't that be fun?

That would be cool, but if I remember right, all the rinthers PCs are clones of one another, they all look the same, but it's been years since I've been there.

[Riev]

As a note: on any Guild Leaders I've played, I have tried to tell people to "collect coins" from known NPCs that carry them. I give descriptions, I say "bring me their knife" or "I want one of their cufflinks".

People usually have the task done inside 10 minutes. There's only so many times I can send you after the same NPC before its going to be vNPCs.
Automating it sounds like a bad idea, when that NPC spawns inside the Mantis and you can't finish. I also think Arm has done well to shy away from automated quests outside simple jobs.

[Synthesis]

Principles of playing a successful, long-lived pickpocket:

1. Max your stealth skills before you even attempt to steal anything.

2. Stay away from people who can detect you.

3. Have a plausible cover story for how you make a living.

4. If the cops show up, leave. This is not modern Western civilization where you must be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

5. Give up on pickpocketing, join a clan, and only play your subclass.

[LindseyBalboa]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

you can't backstab animals to raise backstab? you have to murder humanoids to raise the skill afaik.

[Gunnerblaster]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

you can't backstab animals to raise backstab? you have to murder humanoids to raise the skill afaik.

This is entering Find Out IC area.

Ultimately, Backstab is not a skill meant to be easily practiced. It was created that way, for a reason. If you tried to use it on someone in a "sparring" match, and a Staff member saw it - You would get the shit slapped out of you and a repeated offense would see you lose access to the skill - And any class related to it, all together.

If Staff are that heavy handed about the skill being practiced in a less-than-lethal method, why would they implement features that allow you to practice it with even more ease?

No, part of playing a successful PC criminal is not tied to the relative increase to the Backstab/Sap skills.

[creeper386]

"This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent, be it an animal or a humanoid." - help backstab

[Pariah]

Yeah I thought backstab worked on anything?

[Kavrick]

Yeah I thought backstab worked on anything?

As a menace to all rats, I can confirm that backstab works on creatures. Doesn't even have a penalty like something like riposte

[LidlessEye]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

you can't backstab animals to raise backstab? you have to murder humanoids to raise the skill afaik.

This is entering Find Out IC area.

Ultimately, Backstab is not a skill meant to be easily practiced. It was created that way, for a reason. If you tried to use it on someone in a "sparring" match, and a Staff member saw it - You would get the shit slapped out of you and a repeated offense would see you lose access to the skill - And any class related to it, all together.

If Staff are that heavy handed about the skill being practiced in a less-than-lethal method, why would they implement features that allow you to practice it with even more ease?

No, part of playing a successful PC criminal is not tied to the relative increase to the Backstab/Sap skills.

RETRACTED

[LindseyBalboa]

It works on animals. It doesn't raise your skill if you use it on animals. You can go and backstab all day on raptors and scorpions and not raise backstab.

source: me using backstab in the last ~two rl years, for whatever that's worth

Edited: imo it's not find out ic territory to find out that you actually have to use a skill as intended to practice it but mod if necessary not the intention to ruin anyone's fun

[MeTekillot]

Most successful criminals, both in real life and in-game, are actually deeply connected with establishment figures who benefit from having people at their beck and call who can get their hands dirty with plausible deniability. This is a good thing to keep in mind if you want to keep your criminal PC alive for longer.

[LidlessEye]

It works on animals. It doesn't raise your skill if you use it on animals. You can go and backstab all day on raptors and scorpions and not raise backstab.

source: me using backstab in the last ~two rl years, for whatever that's worth

Edited: imo it's not find out ic territory to find out that you actually have to use a skill as intended to practice it but mod if necessary not the intention to ruin anyone's fun

RETRACTED

[Hestia]

"This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent, be it an animal or a humanoid." - help backstab

Thank you creeper386 for that snippet from the help file.

To everyone else - if you think the above snippet is incorrect, submit a bug report in game, or a bug report in the request tool.

Anything more about results of your personal experience with, thoughts about, theories on the context of this snippet are either conjecture, incorrect, or hyperbole.

Feel free to edit your own posts to state as such, and remember if it's not in the help files /or/ posted specifically by staff in a staff announcement about changes or corrections to the mechanics, then it's mechanics that we leave for discovery in game and not on discord.

Thank you.

[Foulspawn]

Hey there, going to throw in my two cents as well:


I'm quite fresh here, a couple of months old on Arm, and I've been having a blast with criminality and how it works. Code-wise I don't see much support for it, true, but ultimately it's a lot about the kind of connections you can make. There's not too many targets for pickpocketing, but I consider it a means to an end rather than the end-goal for a character of that type. The risk vs reward is extremely skewed on the risk side from what I can tell, but at the very least I know I'm driving something for someone else as well.

I try to value interaction a bit above code mechanics and while I agree that the first few days I just kind of held my head down and worked my way up to make sure I wasn't spotted too easily, after that it was mostly about trying to act as someone's eyes or reminding people that their pockets aren't always safe.

It's a real feast or famine and without guidance I've had plenty of moments where I wanted to just stop it and go back to hunting, which feels natural and with actual tangible progress. But once I started to employ others as well, it's changed my perspective on this aspect.

It's a hard knock life for criminals and ultimately, you will lose, that's the name of the game, but damn is it fun along the way.

[DesertT]

Hey there, going to throw in my two cents as well:

I'm quite fresh here, a couple of months old on Arm, and I've been having a blast with criminality and how it works. Code-wise I don't see much support for it, true, but ultimately it's a lot about the kind of connections you can make. There's not too many targets for pickpocketing, but I consider it a means to an end rather than the end-goal for a character of that type. The risk vs reward is extremely skewed on the risk side from what I can tell, but at the very least I know I'm driving something for someone else as well.

I try to value interaction a bit above code mechanics and while I agree that the first few days I just kind of held my head down and worked my way up to make sure I wasn't spotted too easily, after that it was mostly about trying to act as someone's eyes or reminding people that their pockets aren't always safe.

It's a real feast or famine and without guidance I've had plenty of moments where I wanted to just stop it and go back to hunting, which feels natural and with actual tangible progress. But once I started to employ others as well, it's changed my perspective on this aspect.

It's a hard knock life for criminals and ultimately, you will lose, that's the name of the game, but damn is it fun along the way.

Fantastic response right here!!

Honestly, when I read threads like this, it feels like some people just want to be able to assassinate anyone they want, or at least the silkbloods.  To hell with any plots those sponsored roles were pulling the strings on, my assassin (who will likely die within a month, if not a week) needs street cred!!

So then nobles are stuck with reading about how they're not public enough, but when they come out in public, they're completely pickpocketed and someone tries to backstab them in the middle of the City.  Guess where they don't get pickpocketed and backstabbed?  In their estate!

Once again, I feel PART of the issue here is a lack of NPC targets.  Wilderness types have all sorts of NPC opportunities with wildlife and mobs.  City Criminals have to rely mostly on the PC population unless you're satisfied with that small bag that holds what, two dyes and a needle?

I don't want to turn this into the "what would inspire you to play in the City" thread, but more NPCs with better loot opportunities would be FANTASTIC!!

Otherwise, I do feel that Hestia, Miradus, and Dar all give exceptional tips for developing your criminal PC.

[Miradus]

Let me just point out briefly that if it sucks being the noble who nearly got backstabbed in the city ... it sucks doubly worse to be the assassin dragged to jail when caught trying to backstab a noble in the city.

Almost every criminal failure southside has mantishead potential. You have to be quick and good. This is why certain players (me) are drawn to it. I find stalking and killing players to be vastly superior to killing chalton #893. I also happen to believe that the potential of death improves the overall game.

During my last criminal run I saw burglars who didn't steal from rooms loaded with loot because "they want to see who lives there first", assassins who let people live because the fear of death in the city was superior to actual randos being murdered, and a general consensus of "we can shear the southside sheep regularly but we can only skin them once."

People aren't aware of when player restraint is being shown. Perhaps they simply think it's a time when there's no criminals playing.

But here's a clue for the clue bag ... there's always criminals. But like the Judge Holden quote ... wolves cull themselves, for what other creature could? When criminals get too loud and draw heat on all criminals as a resort, it's the other criminals who become their greatest threat and there's nobody better suited for that task.

[DesertT]

Let me just point out briefly that if it sucks being the noble who nearly got backstabbed in the city ... it sucks doubly worse to be the assassin dragged to jail when caught trying to backstab a noble in the city.

Wait wait wait wait wait...  You just tried to end someone else's character and you think it's somehow unjust to then have your character ended?  That seems a double standard to me.

So nobles should just expect to be backstabbed every RL day by different criminals?  Then called out for hiding in their estates because they're actually playing a role that (typically) is contributing or initiating multiple plotlines for other people to participate in while a wanna-be assassin is just trying to earn street cred?

Almost every criminal failure southside has mantishead potential. You have to be quick and good. This is why certain players (me) are drawn to it. I find stalking and killing players to be vastly superior to killing chalton #893. I also happen to believe that the potential of death improves the overall game.

Yes, a failure does have mantishead potential, but so does hunting in the wilds.  You have a higher mantishead potential if you resist arrest.  And of course, killing a player is going to be more fun that killing a chalton.  Is it because it strokes your ego?  Plus, I mean, chalton... really?  Why does it have to be a player and not an NPC?  This feel more like an OOC issue than an IC one.

Why not be a renown mekillot hunter?  Oh wait, they're not PC's and it doesn't stroke the ego to end them, or is it because they're actually dangerous unlike players who are not accustomed to PK?  Mekillots don't try to start plotlines for other players to get involved in, so when you kill one, you're not affecting multiple players' enjoyment.

During my last criminal run I saw burglars who didn't steal from rooms loaded with loot because "they want to see who lives there first", assassins who let people live because the fear of death in the city was superior to actual randos being murdered, and a general consensus of "we can shear the southside sheep regularly but we can only skin them once."

Is it weird that people who kill don't want the risk of being killed themselves?  When you kill other people, yes, you should expect repercussions.

People aren't aware of when player restraint is being shown. Perhaps they simply think it's a time when there's no criminals playing.

So does someone's pride have a need to let the player of said character know?  Wouldn't you want people to bask in a false sense of security?

I don't mind people playing criminals.  Not one bit.  But if your focus is to kill PCs because you find it "vastly superior", how does your character justify only focusing on PCs?  That's a curiosity.

I know why thieves mostly only steal from PC's, because they're typically the only ones carrying anything more stealing unless you want a small bag with a couple dyes and a sewing needle.

[LindseyBalboa]

lol this feels like it's gotten specific or personal maybe

[DesertT]

lol this feels like it's gotten specific or personal maybe

Well, when someone states specifically that they target PCs...

I just wonder how you justify that.

How does your character know that it's killing a PC?

[Kavrick]

lol this feels like it's gotten specific or personal maybe

Well, when someone states specifically that they target PCs...

I just wonder how you justify that.

How does your character know that it's killing a PC?

Gonna be honest, and maybe this is a more extreme opinion. But if you kill a pc for no other reason than an ooc desire to kill PCs for satisfaction, you should get karma docked. No one wants their character that they've put countless hours into killed by a random rinthi character who's maxed out backstab for no reason other than player satisfaction, that's not what this game should be about.

[Dar]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

[DesertT]

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

They specifically stated assassinating a noble.

If you want to test your PK skills against another PK'er, then by all means, have at!

But typically, people playing nobles aren't playing a combative role.  They're playing a role that's been entrusted to initiate and contribute to multiple other plotlines.

So what's the difference between killing chalton 838 and a non-combative PC?

[Kavrick]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

Playing an antag-like character should revolve around making "content" for other players imo. Randomly giving someone a mantis-head because you pointed them out in a crowd and decided to hide;backstab shmuck in my opinion isn't the right way about it. Now, this doesn't mean I think you should never kill another player, but the player should have a reason to believe it could happen. Being a rival gang member, being a noble who's been trying to prevent criminal activities and isn't taking bribes, someone that slighted your character. That sort of thing, your character should know their character, and ideally but not required, they should be aware about a threat to them.

[Dar]

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

They specifically stated assassinating a noble.

If you want to test your PK skills against another PK'er, then by all means, have at!

But typically, people playing nobles aren't playing a combative role.  They're playing a role that's been entrusted to initiate and contribute to multiple other plotlines.

So what's the difference between killing chalton 838 and a non-combative PC?

Because if we are sticking to assassin's trope, they are killers for hire. Assassins tend to be one of the tools Nobility uses in dealing with each other. More so, an assassin with a reputation of someone who can kill some other random murderer is of course useful, but hardly remarkable. An assassin with a reputation of someone who could be reliably hired to kill a noble rival? That's some achievement.

[Pariah]

Yeah, to ask a murderhobo type character whose whole life resolves around fighting and wanting to get good enough to murder folks, to not murder big juicy nobles is a bit of an ask.

While I tend to go pve versus pvp, I've had many acquaintances in game over the years with dwarves focuses to kill nobles, with psychosis and trauma that wants them to kill nobles.

Nobles are the big target and always will be.

[Dar]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

Playing an antag-like character should revolve around making "content" for other players imo. Randomly giving someone a mantis-head because you pointed them out in a crowd and decided to hide;backstab shmuck in my opinion isn't the right way about it. Now, this doesn't mean I think you should never kill another player, but the player should have a reason to believe it could happen. Being a rival gang member, being a noble who's been trying to prevent criminal activities and isn't taking bribes, someone that slighted your character. That sort of thing, your character should know their character, and ideally but not required, they should be aware about a threat to them.

And the randomly came from where?


Seriously. The guy expressed his opinion. You guys took his words at the worst possible shade and dog piled him for things he did not say.

[Kavrick]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

Playing an antag-like character should revolve around making "content" for other players imo. Randomly giving someone a mantis-head because you pointed them out in a crowd and decided to hide;backstab shmuck in my opinion isn't the right way about it. Now, this doesn't mean I think you should never kill another player, but the player should have a reason to believe it could happen. Being a rival gang member, being a noble who's been trying to prevent criminal activities and isn't taking bribes, someone that slighted your character. That sort of thing, your character should know their character, and ideally but not required, they should be aware about a threat to them.

And the randomly came from where?


Seriously. The guy expressed his opinion. You guys took his words at the worst possible shade and dog piled him for things he did not say.

I don't understand why you're getting defensive over this. I do not know this other player and I'm not accusing them of anything. They brought up the concept and topic of PKing characters and I expanded the nuance that I think should be involved in such things. I'm not trying to point fingers or calling someone out, I haven't even personally experienced random PKs so I don't have some sort of grudge. Im sorry if you thought I was trying to accuse someone of such behaviour, I just wanted to discuss the topic of criminal character PKing

The only thing I will say is that straight up saying that you find it more enjoyable to kill PCs is generally going to be a red flag to a fair amount of people.

[Dar]

And if I'm playing a guard. I'll find it more enjoyable to succeed in protecting a PC against another PC. And if I'm playing a merchant, I will find it more enjoyable to buy and sell to other PCs. If I'm playing a pickpocket, I will find it more enjoyable to steal and extort other PCs.  Will I be playing solely for that reason? No, I'd like to think my characters will be multi dimensional with their own stories. But to say that interacting with other PCs is not more enjoyable then playing single player is strange in my mind. I'll also find it strange if other people would immediately denigrate me as some kind of griefer, if I expressed my preferences honestly without going out of my way to cover every coveat to as not to be misunderstood. Reason why I reacted so defensively of another player is that the way I read it, his statements were read very wrong and ... maybe you guys shouldn't assume the worst of others so easily. Perhaps it's me who's read it wrong.

[Gunnerblaster]

We're getting a bit off-topic here, about Criminal PC's versus PvPer's.

If you want a good example of a Criminal PC that usually doesn't involve just randomly killing people, look no further than Thomas "Tommy" Shelby of Peaky Blinders. Head of a massive criminal op and it's not all about wanton violence and senseless murder. A good criminal doesn't need to rely on murdering someone for their goods. That's a really low brow standard for players wanting to play a criminal PC.

Just my final thoughts on Assassins backstabbing people:
It is my firm belief that Staff can, and will, viciously punish players who use abilities, such as Backstab, for only the purpose of killing other players simply because they can and want to. It's not roleplay and thus not beneficial for the game. If that's all a player is interested in, Armageddon isn't the game they should be playing - They add nothing of value and their departure would not be missed. Personally, I believe everyone bothering to comment in this thread cares about Armageddon, in some shape or form, and would likely not be reading through the GDB if their only purpose was to run around, backstabbing other players for the lulz.

[Miradus]

There are certain people who are "off limits" to me. I don't generally bother "builders" who are trying to create player clans or do something that takes time UNLESS they insert themselves into that PK world.

But there are other roles I feel are fair game and when they rolled out of chargen they "enabled" their pk flag.

Templars, nobles, gemmers or any witch of any type, pitchcloaks, muls, or raiders.

If you're playing one of those roles, you are fair game. If you have a complaint about being pkilled, then use the request tool. Otherwise, your opinion is no more valid than my own.

I play this game because it has blood in it. Permadeath. Stakes. Things that matter.

I don't want padded rails on everything. I GET pkilled about nine times as often as I DO pkill. Staff hasn't smacked me down for it, so I refuse to accept criticism from the typical GDB carebear crowd.

You people remind me why I stop posting here.

[Pariah]

There are certain people who are "off limits" to me. I don't generally bother "builders" who are trying to create player clans or do something that takes time UNLESS they insert themselves into that PK world.

But there are other roles I feel are fair game and when they rolled out of chargen they "enabled" their pk flag.

Templars, nobles, gemmers or any witch of any type, pitchcloaks, muls, or raiders.

If you're playing one of those roles, you are fair game. If you have a complaint about being pkilled, then use the request tool. Otherwise, your opinion is no more valid than my own.

I play this game because it has blood in it. Permadeath. Stakes. Things that matter.

I don't want padded rails on everything. I GET pkilled about nine times as often as I DO pkill. Staff hasn't smacked me down for it, so I refuse to accept criticism from the typical GDB carebear crowd.

You people remind me why I stop posting here.

This is why certain people play and there is nothing wrong with it.

Some people just play to chop muthafuckas up with bone swords.

Miradus is what I call a murderhobo and I say that with all the respect in the world.  They are the perfect ones for your crimson raiders and antagonistic roles.

[Kavrick]

There are certain people who are "off limits" to me. I don't generally bother "builders" who are trying to create player clans or do something that takes time UNLESS they insert themselves into that PK world.

But there are other roles I feel are fair game and when they rolled out of chargen they "enabled" their pk flag.

Templars, nobles, gemmers or any witch of any type, pitchcloaks, muls, or raiders.

If you're playing one of those roles, you are fair game. If you have a complaint about being pkilled, then use the request tool. Otherwise, your opinion is no more valid than my own.

I play this game because it has blood in it. Permadeath. Stakes. Things that matter.

I don't want padded rails on everything. I GET pkilled about nine times as often as I DO pkill. Staff hasn't smacked me down for it, so I refuse to accept criticism from the typical GDB carebear crowd.

You people remind me why I stop posting here.

I just play this game for the roleplay enviroment, not to play a pvp pk-fest. I don't think any sort of PK should happen without rp leadup or motivations, that's my only point. This is an RPI MUD, roleplay should always come before mechanics.

[Miradus]

This is why certain people play and there is nothing wrong with it.

Some people just play to chop muthafuckas up with bone swords.

Miradus is what I call a murderhobo and I say that with all the respect in the world.  They are the perfect ones for your crimson raiders and antagonistic roles.

What's amusing about this is how little I actually kill people. I trap them, I scare them, occasionally I maim them. Once I trapped some in the sewer and made them answer riddles to earn back their torches. I ate some aide's tongue and forced him to Way for the rest of his career.

But I don't really kill that much. Mostly I try to create characters who exist to motivate people into moving the story along. The grand story, not any individual story. I don't know how many times I've seen where I was an antagonist to some fucker for awhile and then they finally catch and kill me. And then about two weeks later they store, I assume because they're bored now.

People are like, "Well why don't you limit your murder to NPC's?"

What rank hypocrisy that statement is. Why don't you sell just to vendor NPC? Why don't you go sit in an empty bar and talk to NPCs? Why don't you go into your apartment and mudsex with NPCs? (Well some of you might. I don't know. I have found weird shit in apartments.)

If you're in a clan right now, go look at the rumors post and you will see over the past few RL years postings of this or that terrible thing or person who has tormented the group and generated a ton of content. And most of them will have been me.

You're welcome.

[Ibzie]

If you're playing characters with the pure intention of hunting down PCs and to top it off realize that's a high risk endeavour, there's really no stakes for you. There are stakes for the people you're targeting, since they're putting effort into creating a narrative, on your end the only stake is loss of stats, which while annoying doesn't in any way compare to several ruined plotlines. Death is a reality in Armageddon, but I don't find the criticisms 'carebearish'. Death is and should be a reality with *good reasoning* and *proper storytelling*. Not just: 'I feel like backstabbing a noble, today.'

The duality of (criminal) man:

I try to value interaction a bit above code mechanics and while I agree that the first few days I just kind of held my head down and worked my way up to make sure I wasn't spotted too easily, after that it was mostly about trying to act as someone's eyes or reminding people that their pockets aren't always safe.

This is why certain players (me) are drawn to it. I find stalking and killing players to be vastly superior to killing chalton #893. I also happen to believe that the potential of death improves the overall game.

[Gunnerblaster]

I don't want padded rails on everything. I GET pkilled about nine times as often as I DO pkill. Staff hasn't smacked me down for it, so I refuse to accept criticism from the typical GDB carebear crowd.

You people remind me why I stop posting here.

You're taking this too personally, I think. My post, for example, was made as an in-general statement but it feels like you took that as a direct insult. If you haven't had any issues from Staff, in regards to how you play, then clearly you're putting in the necessary legwork to enrich the game and not just going around, senselessly killing people.

If you're going to take every post in this forum as a direct critique to you, then maybe you shouldn't be posting here.

[Miradus]

Don't worry yourself overly much about how I take things.

I'm too old to be gaslighted.

[Gunnerblaster]

There have been some pretty awesome contributions to the thread and I wanted to repost them because they're very valid and insightful into how the criminal code will react to things, such as petty theft. I think, in order to allow players interested in getting more involved in criminal activities, without having to learn via having PC's die to relatively silly mistakes, there should be a bit more coded clarity on how the crim code works.

Know an escape route is the best one.
Steal something, get caught, run off. Find your hidey hole (rinth, rooftops, others), and wait it out. Then try again. Yes, tedious. But so is waiting for your combat skills to raise.

1. Start out by trying to stay -off- the beaten path. There are NPCs (and PCs) who roam in all sorts of places, not just right in front of the bar, or at the most populated crossroads in the city.  Explore those places. Read the room descriptions (SO important). Look around in every available coded direction.  In other words, case the joint. Make a plan. Make another plan for failure. Then execute.

2. Don't spam-peek. Twice or thrice if you're sincerely trying to see what someone has worth stealing, sure. But if you're just trying to get your peek skill up, do it once. If you don't see anything then either you failed (at which you have likely moved up a smidge in skill and the timer won't let it budge again for awhile anyway), or your mark doesn't have anything you want to steal (in which case there's no point in peeking further).

3. Learn how to be more attentive toward others trying to steal near (or from) you.  You can learn - from a RP perspective - their techniques, methods, and what they did wrong when they fail.  What is happening when someone fails to see you reaching for his pocket? He is failing his perception skill check. You should probably learn a little more about what the intended victim experiences when he fails his perception checks. Increasing your own perception skills is always a good thing whether you're a victim or a thief.

4. Keep a couple hundred sids on you at all times so that in case you get caught - you have something to offer whoever caught you to "thank them for helping you be an upstanding citizen."

Steal very lightweight things. Particularly in inventory. That sword may look great but you likely won't succeed unless you're at master and have very high agility.

Don't steal from vendors. Ever. It's an auto-fail.

In Allanak, if there's not a guard npc in your room or an adjacent room, then crimcode won't be activated on a fail.

There's two fails for theft: 1. You didn't get the item but nobody noticed. 2. Everyone noticed and your ass is in trouble.

The Gaj, while attractive, is for high skill thieves. Not for learning. There's guards EVERYWHERE and no easy escape. And if one player sees you, the entire city will know you are a thief. This may not matter, but if it does ... be aware.

As for escaping ... always escape upwards. You shouldn't be working on STEAL until you've gotten very good at CLIMB. Even if soldiers jump you, FLEE UP is a thing. Don't steal anywhere that there's not open ground that's free of guards between up and an up exit to a rooftop.

If you got dinged you will see in stat that you are wanted ONLY in a zone where crimcode exists. If you run into the rinth or up to a rooftop you won't know when it wears off, but generally 90 minutes is the norm.

If soldiers nab you, you don't HAVE TO go to jail. They will drag you extremely slowly from wherever you were caught down to the jail. So long as you have stamina to burn, you can attempt to break free. Do this especially in rooms where there is an up exit nearby, or only one soldier. The soldier you break free from will have a delay when you break free giving you time to run. PLUS, he won't be wielding a weapon so even if you're slow you won't get whammied.

1) Vendors:. Either they can't be pickpocketed from, or the difficulty is so high it's not worth the effort.  So if relying on code only, don't try to steal from vendors. Unless you are so great you almost never fail and you want to fail in a controlled environment for training purposes.

2) Practicing theft by learning how to sneak stuff off the ground does provide a certain level of skill.  Consider doing that first before switching to life targets.

3)Only because the person who saw you was an NPC, does not mean you should disregard them. Don't just go to a different room and continue stealing, react to getting spotted the same way you would if it was a PC.

4)Don't look like a thief.  If you are decked out in city sneaking gear, don't be upset when anything and everything missing gets blamed on you. If you show yourself in public, you best be known for other source of income. Even if it means you bought those Obsidian shards and gems you just sold to a PC merchant in the view of the tavern gossips.

5)Theft is very powerful, but in itself is a net zero mechanic. Please use the skills creatively instead of destructively. If the total sum of your existence equals to the fact that nobody in the entire city can keep hold of a mount ticket, or a trinket in their apartment, and nothing else, then you are doing it wrong.


5)Fun and Content often plays a role in the effort other people go to find you out. If you are a 3 dimensional persona that steals sometimes that is interesting and engaging to play with, people will go out of their way to hire you, pay you off, or just ignore your antics.   

Principles of playing a successful, long-lived pickpocket:

1. Max your stealth skills before you even attempt to steal anything.

2. Stay away from people who can detect you.

3. Have a plausible cover story for how you make a living.

4. If the cops show up, leave. This is not modern Western civilization where you must be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

5. Give up on pickpocketing, join a clan, and only play your subclass.

Most successful criminals, both in real life and in-game, are actually deeply connected with establishment figures who benefit from having people at their beck and call who can get their hands dirty with plausible deniability. This is a good thing to keep in mind if you want to keep your criminal PC alive for longer.