Criminal PCs

[creeper386]

"This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent, be it an animal or a humanoid." - help backstab

[Pariah]

Yeah I thought backstab worked on anything?

[Kavrick]

Yeah I thought backstab worked on anything?

As a menace to all rats, I can confirm that backstab works on creatures. Doesn't even have a penalty like something like riposte

[LidlessEye]

I strongly feel city type characters should have the means to practise backstab, sap and ranged skills in the city premises without resorting to homicide.

Respectfully, absolutely fucking not. A highly advanced Backstab will kill most PC's and/or drop them to about 10% of their health. The Backstab skill should be hard to skill up. Sap is pretty much a 1-hit KO, as well. I'm of the mind that, if a PC spam-grinds Backstab up then immediately goes to backstab a PC to death, for little reason other that they can - They should immediately and permanently lose access to any class/subclass with the Backstab skill.

I do not disagree that it should be hard to skill up. I merely question if the current methods are thematic, viz, backstabbing animals. I am asking for a method to train inside cities, which may be equally hard as going outside to backstab and sap animals. Perhaps 'murder this npc', 'kidnap that npc' criminal npc quests in the rinth?

you can't backstab animals to raise backstab? you have to murder humanoids to raise the skill afaik.

This is entering Find Out IC area.

Ultimately, Backstab is not a skill meant to be easily practiced. It was created that way, for a reason. If you tried to use it on someone in a "sparring" match, and a Staff member saw it - You would get the shit slapped out of you and a repeated offense would see you lose access to the skill - And any class related to it, all together.

If Staff are that heavy handed about the skill being practiced in a less-than-lethal method, why would they implement features that allow you to practice it with even more ease?

No, part of playing a successful PC criminal is not tied to the relative increase to the Backstab/Sap skills.

RETRACTED

[LindseyBalboa]

It works on animals. It doesn't raise your skill if you use it on animals. You can go and backstab all day on raptors and scorpions and not raise backstab.

source: me using backstab in the last ~two rl years, for whatever that's worth

Edited: imo it's not find out ic territory to find out that you actually have to use a skill as intended to practice it but mod if necessary not the intention to ruin anyone's fun

[MeTekillot]

Most successful criminals, both in real life and in-game, are actually deeply connected with establishment figures who benefit from having people at their beck and call who can get their hands dirty with plausible deniability. This is a good thing to keep in mind if you want to keep your criminal PC alive for longer.

[LidlessEye]

It works on animals. It doesn't raise your skill if you use it on animals. You can go and backstab all day on raptors and scorpions and not raise backstab.

source: me using backstab in the last ~two rl years, for whatever that's worth

Edited: imo it's not find out ic territory to find out that you actually have to use a skill as intended to practice it but mod if necessary not the intention to ruin anyone's fun

RETRACTED

[Hestia]

"This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent, be it an animal or a humanoid." - help backstab

Thank you creeper386 for that snippet from the help file.

To everyone else - if you think the above snippet is incorrect, submit a bug report in game, or a bug report in the request tool.

Anything more about results of your personal experience with, thoughts about, theories on the context of this snippet are either conjecture, incorrect, or hyperbole.

Feel free to edit your own posts to state as such, and remember if it's not in the help files /or/ posted specifically by staff in a staff announcement about changes or corrections to the mechanics, then it's mechanics that we leave for discovery in game and not on discord.

Thank you.

[Foulspawn]

Hey there, going to throw in my two cents as well:


I'm quite fresh here, a couple of months old on Arm, and I've been having a blast with criminality and how it works. Code-wise I don't see much support for it, true, but ultimately it's a lot about the kind of connections you can make. There's not too many targets for pickpocketing, but I consider it a means to an end rather than the end-goal for a character of that type. The risk vs reward is extremely skewed on the risk side from what I can tell, but at the very least I know I'm driving something for someone else as well.

I try to value interaction a bit above code mechanics and while I agree that the first few days I just kind of held my head down and worked my way up to make sure I wasn't spotted too easily, after that it was mostly about trying to act as someone's eyes or reminding people that their pockets aren't always safe.

It's a real feast or famine and without guidance I've had plenty of moments where I wanted to just stop it and go back to hunting, which feels natural and with actual tangible progress. But once I started to employ others as well, it's changed my perspective on this aspect.

It's a hard knock life for criminals and ultimately, you will lose, that's the name of the game, but damn is it fun along the way.

[DesertT]

Hey there, going to throw in my two cents as well:

I'm quite fresh here, a couple of months old on Arm, and I've been having a blast with criminality and how it works. Code-wise I don't see much support for it, true, but ultimately it's a lot about the kind of connections you can make. There's not too many targets for pickpocketing, but I consider it a means to an end rather than the end-goal for a character of that type. The risk vs reward is extremely skewed on the risk side from what I can tell, but at the very least I know I'm driving something for someone else as well.

I try to value interaction a bit above code mechanics and while I agree that the first few days I just kind of held my head down and worked my way up to make sure I wasn't spotted too easily, after that it was mostly about trying to act as someone's eyes or reminding people that their pockets aren't always safe.

It's a real feast or famine and without guidance I've had plenty of moments where I wanted to just stop it and go back to hunting, which feels natural and with actual tangible progress. But once I started to employ others as well, it's changed my perspective on this aspect.

It's a hard knock life for criminals and ultimately, you will lose, that's the name of the game, but damn is it fun along the way.

Fantastic response right here!!

Honestly, when I read threads like this, it feels like some people just want to be able to assassinate anyone they want, or at least the silkbloods.  To hell with any plots those sponsored roles were pulling the strings on, my assassin (who will likely die within a month, if not a week) needs street cred!!

So then nobles are stuck with reading about how they're not public enough, but when they come out in public, they're completely pickpocketed and someone tries to backstab them in the middle of the City.  Guess where they don't get pickpocketed and backstabbed?  In their estate!

Once again, I feel PART of the issue here is a lack of NPC targets.  Wilderness types have all sorts of NPC opportunities with wildlife and mobs.  City Criminals have to rely mostly on the PC population unless you're satisfied with that small bag that holds what, two dyes and a needle?

I don't want to turn this into the "what would inspire you to play in the City" thread, but more NPCs with better loot opportunities would be FANTASTIC!!

Otherwise, I do feel that Hestia, Miradus, and Dar all give exceptional tips for developing your criminal PC.

[Miradus]

Let me just point out briefly that if it sucks being the noble who nearly got backstabbed in the city ... it sucks doubly worse to be the assassin dragged to jail when caught trying to backstab a noble in the city.

Almost every criminal failure southside has mantishead potential. You have to be quick and good. This is why certain players (me) are drawn to it. I find stalking and killing players to be vastly superior to killing chalton #893. I also happen to believe that the potential of death improves the overall game.

During my last criminal run I saw burglars who didn't steal from rooms loaded with loot because "they want to see who lives there first", assassins who let people live because the fear of death in the city was superior to actual randos being murdered, and a general consensus of "we can shear the southside sheep regularly but we can only skin them once."

People aren't aware of when player restraint is being shown. Perhaps they simply think it's a time when there's no criminals playing.

But here's a clue for the clue bag ... there's always criminals. But like the Judge Holden quote ... wolves cull themselves, for what other creature could? When criminals get too loud and draw heat on all criminals as a resort, it's the other criminals who become their greatest threat and there's nobody better suited for that task.

[DesertT]

Let me just point out briefly that if it sucks being the noble who nearly got backstabbed in the city ... it sucks doubly worse to be the assassin dragged to jail when caught trying to backstab a noble in the city.

Wait wait wait wait wait...  You just tried to end someone else's character and you think it's somehow unjust to then have your character ended?  That seems a double standard to me.

So nobles should just expect to be backstabbed every RL day by different criminals?  Then called out for hiding in their estates because they're actually playing a role that (typically) is contributing or initiating multiple plotlines for other people to participate in while a wanna-be assassin is just trying to earn street cred?

Almost every criminal failure southside has mantishead potential. You have to be quick and good. This is why certain players (me) are drawn to it. I find stalking and killing players to be vastly superior to killing chalton #893. I also happen to believe that the potential of death improves the overall game.

Yes, a failure does have mantishead potential, but so does hunting in the wilds.  You have a higher mantishead potential if you resist arrest.  And of course, killing a player is going to be more fun that killing a chalton.  Is it because it strokes your ego?  Plus, I mean, chalton... really?  Why does it have to be a player and not an NPC?  This feel more like an OOC issue than an IC one.

Why not be a renown mekillot hunter?  Oh wait, they're not PC's and it doesn't stroke the ego to end them, or is it because they're actually dangerous unlike players who are not accustomed to PK?  Mekillots don't try to start plotlines for other players to get involved in, so when you kill one, you're not affecting multiple players' enjoyment.

During my last criminal run I saw burglars who didn't steal from rooms loaded with loot because "they want to see who lives there first", assassins who let people live because the fear of death in the city was superior to actual randos being murdered, and a general consensus of "we can shear the southside sheep regularly but we can only skin them once."

Is it weird that people who kill don't want the risk of being killed themselves?  When you kill other people, yes, you should expect repercussions.

People aren't aware of when player restraint is being shown. Perhaps they simply think it's a time when there's no criminals playing.

So does someone's pride have a need to let the player of said character know?  Wouldn't you want people to bask in a false sense of security?

I don't mind people playing criminals.  Not one bit.  But if your focus is to kill PCs because you find it "vastly superior", how does your character justify only focusing on PCs?  That's a curiosity.

I know why thieves mostly only steal from PC's, because they're typically the only ones carrying anything more stealing unless you want a small bag with a couple dyes and a sewing needle.

[LindseyBalboa]

lol this feels like it's gotten specific or personal maybe

[DesertT]

lol this feels like it's gotten specific or personal maybe

Well, when someone states specifically that they target PCs...

I just wonder how you justify that.

How does your character know that it's killing a PC?

[Kavrick]

lol this feels like it's gotten specific or personal maybe

Well, when someone states specifically that they target PCs...

I just wonder how you justify that.

How does your character know that it's killing a PC?

Gonna be honest, and maybe this is a more extreme opinion. But if you kill a pc for no other reason than an ooc desire to kill PCs for satisfaction, you should get karma docked. No one wants their character that they've put countless hours into killed by a random rinthi character who's maxed out backstab for no reason other than player satisfaction, that's not what this game should be about.

[Dar]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

[DesertT]

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

They specifically stated assassinating a noble.

If you want to test your PK skills against another PK'er, then by all means, have at!

But typically, people playing nobles aren't playing a combative role.  They're playing a role that's been entrusted to initiate and contribute to multiple other plotlines.

So what's the difference between killing chalton 838 and a non-combative PC?

[Kavrick]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

Playing an antag-like character should revolve around making "content" for other players imo. Randomly giving someone a mantis-head because you pointed them out in a crowd and decided to hide;backstab shmuck in my opinion isn't the right way about it. Now, this doesn't mean I think you should never kill another player, but the player should have a reason to believe it could happen. Being a rival gang member, being a noble who's been trying to prevent criminal activities and isn't taking bribes, someone that slighted your character. That sort of thing, your character should know their character, and ideally but not required, they should be aware about a threat to them.

[Dar]

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

They specifically stated assassinating a noble.

If you want to test your PK skills against another PK'er, then by all means, have at!

But typically, people playing nobles aren't playing a combative role.  They're playing a role that's been entrusted to initiate and contribute to multiple other plotlines.

So what's the difference between killing chalton 838 and a non-combative PC?

Because if we are sticking to assassin's trope, they are killers for hire. Assassins tend to be one of the tools Nobility uses in dealing with each other. More so, an assassin with a reputation of someone who can kill some other random murderer is of course useful, but hardly remarkable. An assassin with a reputation of someone who could be reliably hired to kill a noble rival? That's some achievement.

[Pariah]

Yeah, to ask a murderhobo type character whose whole life resolves around fighting and wanting to get good enough to murder folks, to not murder big juicy nobles is a bit of an ask.

While I tend to go pve versus pvp, I've had many acquaintances in game over the years with dwarves focuses to kill nobles, with psychosis and trauma that wants them to kill nobles.

Nobles are the big target and always will be.

[Dar]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

Playing an antag-like character should revolve around making "content" for other players imo. Randomly giving someone a mantis-head because you pointed them out in a crowd and decided to hide;backstab shmuck in my opinion isn't the right way about it. Now, this doesn't mean I think you should never kill another player, but the player should have a reason to believe it could happen. Being a rival gang member, being a noble who's been trying to prevent criminal activities and isn't taking bribes, someone that slighted your character. That sort of thing, your character should know their character, and ideally but not required, they should be aware about a threat to them.

And the randomly came from where?


Seriously. The guy expressed his opinion. You guys took his words at the worst possible shade and dog piled him for things he did not say.

[Kavrick]

you guys are taking words of  another dude to an extreme that he proooobably did not mean.  How about rephrasing this another way.   When I'm playing an assassin trope character, I am not doing it to endlessly kill chalton, or any other NPCs. I would like to play and interact with other characters played by other players in this multi-player game.  Even if that interaction revolves around murder.

And he's not very far off. You can play a hunting character and spend a rl year never interacting with a single PC. Kill critters, explore, sell product of your hunt to npc merchants, buy gear from npc merchants, kill critters, explore, etc, etc, etc.

Criminals usually tend to eventually need to put their skills against other players. They don't "have" to, but ... it's more fun to.

Playing an antag-like character should revolve around making "content" for other players imo. Randomly giving someone a mantis-head because you pointed them out in a crowd and decided to hide;backstab shmuck in my opinion isn't the right way about it. Now, this doesn't mean I think you should never kill another player, but the player should have a reason to believe it could happen. Being a rival gang member, being a noble who's been trying to prevent criminal activities and isn't taking bribes, someone that slighted your character. That sort of thing, your character should know their character, and ideally but not required, they should be aware about a threat to them.

And the randomly came from where?


Seriously. The guy expressed his opinion. You guys took his words at the worst possible shade and dog piled him for things he did not say.

I don't understand why you're getting defensive over this. I do not know this other player and I'm not accusing them of anything. They brought up the concept and topic of PKing characters and I expanded the nuance that I think should be involved in such things. I'm not trying to point fingers or calling someone out, I haven't even personally experienced random PKs so I don't have some sort of grudge. Im sorry if you thought I was trying to accuse someone of such behaviour, I just wanted to discuss the topic of criminal character PKing

The only thing I will say is that straight up saying that you find it more enjoyable to kill PCs is generally going to be a red flag to a fair amount of people.

[Dar]

And if I'm playing a guard. I'll find it more enjoyable to succeed in protecting a PC against another PC. And if I'm playing a merchant, I will find it more enjoyable to buy and sell to other PCs. If I'm playing a pickpocket, I will find it more enjoyable to steal and extort other PCs.  Will I be playing solely for that reason? No, I'd like to think my characters will be multi dimensional with their own stories. But to say that interacting with other PCs is not more enjoyable then playing single player is strange in my mind. I'll also find it strange if other people would immediately denigrate me as some kind of griefer, if I expressed my preferences honestly without going out of my way to cover every coveat to as not to be misunderstood. Reason why I reacted so defensively of another player is that the way I read it, his statements were read very wrong and ... maybe you guys shouldn't assume the worst of others so easily. Perhaps it's me who's read it wrong.

[Gunnerblaster]

We're getting a bit off-topic here, about Criminal PC's versus PvPer's.

If you want a good example of a Criminal PC that usually doesn't involve just randomly killing people, look no further than Thomas "Tommy" Shelby of Peaky Blinders. Head of a massive criminal op and it's not all about wanton violence and senseless murder. A good criminal doesn't need to rely on murdering someone for their goods. That's a really low brow standard for players wanting to play a criminal PC.

Just my final thoughts on Assassins backstabbing people:
It is my firm belief that Staff can, and will, viciously punish players who use abilities, such as Backstab, for only the purpose of killing other players simply because they can and want to. It's not roleplay and thus not beneficial for the game. If that's all a player is interested in, Armageddon isn't the game they should be playing - They add nothing of value and their departure would not be missed. Personally, I believe everyone bothering to comment in this thread cares about Armageddon, in some shape or form, and would likely not be reading through the GDB if their only purpose was to run around, backstabbing other players for the lulz.

[Miradus]

There are certain people who are "off limits" to me. I don't generally bother "builders" who are trying to create player clans or do something that takes time UNLESS they insert themselves into that PK world.

But there are other roles I feel are fair game and when they rolled out of chargen they "enabled" their pk flag.

Templars, nobles, gemmers or any witch of any type, pitchcloaks, muls, or raiders.

If you're playing one of those roles, you are fair game. If you have a complaint about being pkilled, then use the request tool. Otherwise, your opinion is no more valid than my own.

I play this game because it has blood in it. Permadeath. Stakes. Things that matter.

I don't want padded rails on everything. I GET pkilled about nine times as often as I DO pkill. Staff hasn't smacked me down for it, so I refuse to accept criticism from the typical GDB carebear crowd.

You people remind me why I stop posting here.