This was brought to our notice by player suggestion.  If I can see a mount, and one end of the reins, I can probably figure out where the other end is, which is where you are, by definition, when hitched.

Quote from: armandhammer on March 12, 2022, 12:53:03 PM
Can we not sneak and hide while riding?

No, the game echos something like:
"That would be difficult while mounted."
and prevents you from doing so.

Quote from: armandhammer on March 12, 2022, 12:53:03 PM
Are there not (viable) in-game mounts that can sneak better than an inix? Would these not be smaller mounts, preventing big heavy armored PCs from being able to sneak around while riding?

Sneak, for the most part, allows players to enter the room without it echoing to other players.

NPCs, unfortunately, seem to detect when you enter remain into their room, even if you're sneaking.

Quote from: armandhammer on March 12, 2022, 12:53:03 PM
Does an interaction of ride skill, hide skill, sneak skill, and mounted creature's sneakability not determine whether we can sneak/hide past something while riding? Why not? Why are we not discussing this?

You can't hide while riding a mount.  The game code prevents this.

We're discussing it because a change was recently made to prevent you from sneaking and hiding in rooms while also being hitched to your mount.

Sneaking and hiding while ON your mount is a lot more palatable than sneaking and hiding while it trails behind you. Editing the code to allow the former while still barring the latter seems fine, sure.

Quote from: mansa on March 12, 2022, 03:14:38 PM
We're discussing it because a change was recently made to prevent you from sneaking and hiding in rooms while also being hitched to your mount.

Technically the change unhitches your mount when you type hide, it doesn't prevent you.  It's semantic but an important distinction.

It would be very cool if sunback/erdlu could sneakhide alongside their owner.

One big issue with this is that nobody can imagine a mount not being only physically hitched but also perhaps loyal to its owner due to the relationship they share and following them without being forcibly led. Beetles certainly seem disloyal but sunbacks, erdlu, and inix seem to have a much higher capacity for that sort of mutual respect.

It is also entirely reasonable for small groups to hide together. They are all aware of each others' location but outsiders wouldn't be able to trivially spot them. Hiding together with your mount would work just like that.

Making mount stealth based on a combination of your ride skill and stealth skills sounds sensible to me, and gives stalkers the edge they deserve in a situation like this while also allowing raider/scout to have a chance to maybe bring a mount a few rooms for an ambush.

Quote from: Riev on March 12, 2022, 08:57:50 AM
In this scenario... where are you hiding exactly where you can mount so quickly?

Behind a rock, who cares? It's a tarantula. I understand an intelligent creature could see a mount and figure out where the owner is, but dumb beasts? That specific example doesn't matter now, I aliased mount to mount name so it doesn't depend on being hitched.

The real problem is non-desert-elves now cannot move stealthily in the wilds for any reasonable distance because they will have to circle back for their mount. This wasn't the goal of the change. It's a side effect. Please fix. I don't really care how. Lots of good suggestions in this thread.

QuoteI understand an intelligent creature could see a mount and figure out where the owner is, but dumb beasts?

Going along that line of thought requires that you acknowledge what makes dumb beasts adept at hunting, in that case.  Other senses, other clues, other instincts.  I've always thought of wilderness stealth as inherently different from city stealth; you're masking signs of your passing, not just 'blending in'.  It's not just wear a ghillie suit and all is good, when it's being used against beast npc's.  You are knowledgeable and masking scents, breaking silhouettes, staggering steps, even adjusting breathing, if that's what it takes to NOT stick out as a humanoid in a beast environment.

So with that, I think it may be less of a 'look where the reins are!' and more of a 'GIANT ATTENTION GRABBER HERE, CHECK SENSES'.

That and I don't see anything particularly unrealistic about having to leave your mount behind to be stealthy.  That's...how I did it before the change, because it was always weird af typing 'sneak' then seeing a giant beetle following me every room.  I just view it like westerns; tether up the horse, get to what you're doing, come back to the horse.  That way its whinny doesn't give you away.

ETA:  Now all that talk about wilderness hide is different against other humanoids...but I also think that most people didn't try to sneak up on humanoids with a beast in tow in the first place.  Because uh...yeah.

I remember when I was 11 - 15, and we raised Akitas and horses. I used to take the dogs on my ride with my favorite horse literknot. He was a massive quarterhorse, it looked liked someone had ducttaped three footballs to each of his legs and wrapped them in fine leather. Our breeder and an older carriage horse (descendant of Rocketbar). The dogs would follow his lead mostly, too, and he, my lead.

I felt  cool enough to roll down dirt roads I didn't own, and once came across two dudes on four wheelers ith guns, bolted across the field, and me, my horse, and my dogs drove into the brush. It hurt, because there was no path, but literknot listened, and the dogs could get through. I got chased. But repeatedly, I was sneaking, and hiding, effectively, without dropping off my mount.

The cost was literknot's chest, and my legs, were scraped to all hell. The enviroment was green, and thicj with brush. But there in zalanthas there are also swells, and rises in dunes, geographical features like gorges or outcroppings, many of the examples listed before this post, and weather so foul and terrible, it's blinding. Blinding sand could sting your eyes, while mounted on an inix you searched for that breed on an erdlu climbing over or under you on the same winding, multi-layered steppes.

Hiding on a mount seemed real to me, especially since I 'used the foliage in the area for cover'.

My experience is quite the opposite.  Cattle may be dumb, but it is quite hard to sneak up on them on a horse.  Once you are line of sight and relatively close, they notice you.  They also act differently, if it is just a horse or if it is a horse with a rider.

Ditto deer, except they are even more observant and skittish.

Have yet to surprise a mountain lion.

I do not have much a problem with the change.

That being said, because of the change...

You (staff) Should put in a method to tie or hobble a mount.

So I can hobble my mount, Yes, I know IRL that is just to slow an animal down so you can catch it again. And Arm mounts do not wander. But it would be something you attach that makes it take longer to take the mount.

As it sits now and for all of arm mount history, It is just as silly that somebody can run in and simply type hitch mount with no delay and be gone.

I think a hobble should be an actual item that takes a set amount of time to put on and the same or even a bit more time to take off.

Also allow a tie command, so you actually tie your mount off to something, if there are things around to tie too. AND that should have a timer on both. So, if I say type "tie inix 20" It takes 20 seconds to do it, it takes the same to undo it. Have a min and a max to that, Say, 30-40 seconds on the max side.

Again, while people might think it is silly that somebody can hide and make a mount unstealable, It is just as silly that somebody can be off with it before I can react from feet away.

Rather than hobbling, maybe just add significant delay to stand and rest (for mounts)?

(Yes, this makes your noob scout vs scrab stage harder.)

I'm good with all sorts of ideas for mounts and wilderness difficulties.  Hell, I've been nerdy enough on survival youtube channels that I wished there was shelter building in Arm before.

I just don't think the idea of dismounting so that stealth works, despite stealth not working for the giant thing lumbering next to you, should be viewed as some sort of valid action.  I think the prospect of having a mount stolen while you're off that way is reasonable.  I am okay with mitigators to this.  I am okay with stealthy mounts as well.

As with all things stealth, there's all sorts of cool things to be toyed with to make fun with an otherwise shallow but powerful dynamic.

if there are stealthy mounts then I hope there is at least one very good stealthy mount that can be tamed. creating a useful tool like that and then clan locking it or city locking it sucks

Quote from: Brokkr on June 01, 2022, 10:14:58 PM
My experience is quite the opposite.  Cattle may be dumb, but it is quite hard to sneak up on them on a horse.  Once you are line of sight and relatively close, they notice you.  They also act differently, if it is just a horse or if it is a horse with a rider.

Ditto deer, except they are even more observant and skittish.

Have yet to surprise a mountain lion.

Man, you sure got a point here. I've cornered animals, and THEY hid, but I've never been able to get close to an animal while mounted. Nigh friggin impossible from Earth animals, so with our jakhals and worms? Lol.

Then again, never rode a beetle. Seems like, if you want a sneaky mount, it needs to alreaey be a sneaky animal, and I can't think of an animal example IG that's also ridable.

Halfling on a cheotan? Not likely to be releant to our discussion.

Quote from: Filthy_Grey_Rat on June 03, 2022, 02:02:12 PM
Man, you sure got a point here. I've cornered animals, and THEY hid, but I've never been able to get close to an animal while mounted. Nigh friggin impossible from Earth animals, so with our jakhals and worms? Lol.

Counterpoint: Slavonic bear cavalry are so sneaky IRL I've still never seen one in action.

Quote from: Tisiphone on June 03, 2022, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: Filthy_Grey_Rat on June 03, 2022, 02:02:12 PM
Man, you sure got a point here. I've cornered animals, and THEY hid, but I've never been able to get close to an animal while mounted. Nigh friggin impossible from Earth animals, so with our jakhals and worms? Lol.

Counterpoint: Slavonic bear cavalry are so sneaky IRL I've still never seen one in action.

Typically they're found in {Redacted}
-This is FOI'RL' info, plz dont share, Mark.