Quote from: Patuk on October 17, 2021, 06:36:54 PM

Quote from: Veselka on October 17, 2021, 06:20:14 PM
Something to note: if you repeatedly run away without RP from people in power (be they raiders or Templars) they tend to not be super duper merciful if and when they catch up with you.

I agree that it behooves those in power (and with actual coded crime code power) to err on the side of caution. There are a ton more options for stories than straight up execution, be that threats, physical violence, mental violence, threats against their loved ones, and so on.

What makes sense in the context of the scene, of the people involved, of the crimes committed (or not committed)? It's a very subjective nuanced 'thing', and sometimes, it makes the most sense to execute someone. Other times, it makes sense to let them go with a warning, or with a physical reminder rather than death. It's different in Tuluk than it is in Allanak, too.

I think people jump to the conclusion that 'The Powers That Be' are always the problem, but I think it's a two way street. If your PC is being a dumb criminal and getting caught often, yeah, they're probably not going to make the cut (especially if they are a dingus and not playing ball). Whether it was on a Templar or Garrison Captain or whatever, it's surprising how stupid people can be when faced with mortal danger. I'm no stranger to getting angry PMs from people after I've killed them. I stand by the fact that it is a harsh setting, that if and when it makes sense for people in power to kill people (whether that means they are a defiler or a templar), if it makes IC sense, it makes IC sense. End of story. On to the next.

Should a Templar always let people off with a slap on the wrist? I am sure most people would agree that would be silly. Some people have to die. And there has to always be the mortal threat of death. That doesn't mean it's always the knee-jerk option, every time. But it is and should be ever present when dealing with a Templar.

This answer comes up every time, too.

What if X. What if Y. The setting has to be harsh. Death has to be a threat. I don't even disagree.

But ever since returning, Templars have been far more brutal and murderous than they were before I took my break. I don't like it, I don't want to be around them, and my fun is my own, as is that of other people. Your line mirrors the one staff gave me; fine. I'm going to join all these other people and not feel very surprised Allanak is so empty.

The more I think a out it, the more I realize this is the answer. And it isn't only true of Allanak.

Avoid the fun-ruiners and your fun won't be ruined.

The only problem in Allanak is that I'm not playing at the moment.

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 19, 2021, 10:04:39 AM
The only problem in Allanak is that I'm not playing at the moment.

You're definitely a fun creator. Miss ya but happy for ya.

But yeah, I went through my character list, thought about the causes of death... patuk and anyone who said templars are the problem won the thread.

Having access to an infinite number of insta-death NPCs doesn't mean you should access and abuse this power infinitely. Unless your goal is in fact depopulation.

That is actually a common thing of any city when leadership proves ... Irresponsible. If a templar gets too harsh and murderous without other templars to balance it out, the populace flees the city. First the PC GMH people begin to frequent less and less. Then other people.

This happens in the rinth as well. Each time a sponsored guild member begins to solve all of his internal problems with PK, suddenly - ghost town.

This happened in Tuluk. Can't start an antagonistic plot without Faithful being 100% aware of it, inviting you for a chat? Then you bring your antagonistic ideas into another rp sphere.

It's a common issue. It's totally IC to be brutal, but if you overdo it to a point of being detrimental to the game, then it's a problem.  And staff can't go out of the way to stomp you down, because the person did not technically break any rules. At best they can role call another templar in to balance out the brutality. But success rate of that is intermittent 'and' it takes time.


We all agree though. Any brutal action is justified if it ends with Shaleah playing the game and never leaving.

Okay, so, now that we have identified the ACTUAL problem (PK hungry templars/leaders), what's the solution?

Write a guide for new players along the lines of, "You might have heard Templars create plots, but they actually just railroad and end plots, do not approach?"

Give Leader PCs a PK limit of three players an IG year because it's not actually impressive when they PK someone at all given their gross power?

Do nothing and continue to let sadists have their sandbox while people with better things to do go elsewhere?

It's a little hard to find a good solution here, halp.

Embrace favoritism and give leadership roles to same people again and again as they proved themselves to be content positive instead of content negative?

Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 11:26:34 AM
Embrace favoritism and give leadership roles to same people again and again as they proved themselves to be content positive instead of content negative?

I love this game and I don't want to disparage it or even imply disparagement. But thanks for being so astute as you discussed this with me Socratically.

It hurts sometimes but I am glad there are ways to still enjoy the game as Patuk mentioned. Advice worth heeding. When I take this advice it concides with playing very casually and rarely but that is fine.

Templars are way less murderous than say... spiders.. carru.. scrab.. in my case err.. tandu.. gurth etc. You generally do have to break a pretty serious law, be straight up rude to them or be an abomination, usually, to warrant enough attention from a Templar for them to bothered about PKing you.

*turns up the ICly justified PK dial*

Nah fam.

Quote from: triste on October 19, 2021, 10:09:00 AM

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 19, 2021, 10:04:39 AM
The only problem in Allanak is that I'm not playing at the moment.

You're definitely a fun creator. Miss ya but happy for ya.

But yeah, I went through my character list, thought about the causes of death... patuk and anyone who said templars are the problem won the thread.

Having access to an infinite number of insta-death NPCs doesn't mean you should access and abuse this power infinitely. Unless your goal is in fact depopulation.

When you went through your character list, did you also note your own involvement for your PC's demise?

Takes two to tango y'all.

Quote from: triste on October 19, 2021, 11:00:35 AM
Okay, so, now that we have identified the ACTUAL problem (PK hungry templars/leaders), what's the solution?

Write a guide for new players along the lines of, "You might have heard Templars create plots, but they actually just railroad and end plots, do not approach?"

Give Leader PCs a PK limit of three players an IG year because it's not actually impressive when they PK someone at all given their gross power?

Do nothing and continue to let sadists have their sandbox while people with better things to do go elsewhere?

It's a little hard to find a good solution here, halp.

Good solution:

Go play in tribes. Avoid cities (and meaningful plots and stories). Cherish your PC's story over every other PC's story, because you are the star of the show. Repeat ad nauseum.

I'm fine with that, maybe because it resembles my life. Yes, I cycle through half elf loners, tribal loners, gicker loners, vagabond loners ad nauseum.

Judge me all you want, just please make the game fun for whoever plays it and what niches they fill. Don't whine if your cities go empty, instead offer better stories in those cities (that are less likely to end in abusing your power to murder people).

Last note because I like to end on positive terms.

That templar who I mentioned coming on to my character, but stopping, was great. He got my character involved in plots and never PKed any of my characters. The character I played after being away for four years, which he got involved in plots? A tribal.

This Templar was not a Care Bear, he was a Trade Minister. Ask any merchant on any planet and they will tell you that living customers and employees are good for business. Even morticians need hearse drivers and people left alive to mourn. And so this Templar dealt with Tribals, he did not PK them.

My tribal, a tribal like you just dismissively told me to play, got involved not only with Templars but also with Kukuali, who started a RPT which drew more players than we had in YEARS -- more than eighty players for multiple days -- and that's right, Kukuali was "just a tribal" too.

You can play in your dollhouse alone, or invite friends. Respect to all players. I like what Dar said about being content positive.

If it makes sense for any of my PCs to kill your special snowflake Pc, they will. Regardless of whether I the Player feel kind of bad about it or not. Or whether my PC is a leader or Templar or assassin or Elf or a nobody.

Get real, it's Armageddon, not Stardew Valley.

Also 'Content Positive' vs 'Content Negative'. It's the responsibility of Templars to reinforce documentation for their area of influence.

As an example, an escaped slave from Allanak will absolutely be killed if it is recaptured, particularly a Mul. They can't be reconditioned, and are therefore useless as a slave, and set a bad example for other slaves. It would be odd (though perhaps there would be extenuating circumstances IG) for a Templar to just release a recaptured slave.

As another example, if an elf criminal is given a second opportunity after being captured once, it isn't likely they will be given a third opportunity. They were given their second chance. Allanak is a brutal place. If everyone just receives hand-slaps, the authority of Allanak is laughably lax.

As another example, if a soldier deserts from their post and they are caught, they are executed. They aren't given a hand slap and told 'don't do that again'. The PC on the other side of that equation should be well aware of that -- if they aren't, I don't really know what to say.

As another example, if you are a mage in Tuluk and are discovered, you should absolutely expect a fate worse than death. There is historical precedent in Tuluk for the level of mage hatred they have. I have yet to see an exception to this.

Furthermore, if you are a mage sympathizer or consort with mages or worse, defilers and Mindbenders, you should absolutely expect death or worse in Tuluk. In Allanak, YMMV.

I find that people that are surprised by the brutality of either Tuluk or Allanak and their ruling class aren't paying very close attention to the documentation of the game world, and are then surprised when others reinforce it. It's pretty cut and dry to me. I don't see Templars stomping out every thief or elf they catch -- If anything I see them trying to show restraint, particularly on first meetings, and offering an opportunity to not shit the bed. Then, they shit the bed, and expect the Templar not to make good on their threat of 'if I catch you next time, there won't be a next time'.

Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 10:14:41 AM
That is actually a common thing of any city when leadership proves ... Irresponsible. If a templar gets too harsh and murderous without other templars to balance it out, the populace flees the city. First the PC GMH people begin to frequent less and less. Then other people.

This happens in the rinth as well. Each time a sponsored guild member begins to solve all of his internal problems with PK, suddenly - ghost town.

This happened in Tuluk. Can't start an antagonistic plot without Faithful being 100% aware of it, inviting you for a chat? Then you bring your antagonistic ideas into another rp sphere.

It's a common issue. It's totally IC to be brutal, but if you overdo it to a point of being detrimental to the game, then it's a problem.  And staff can't go out of the way to stomp you down, because the person did not technically break any rules. At best they can role call another templar in to balance out the brutality. But success rate of that is intermittent 'and' it takes time.


We all agree though. Any brutal action is justified if it ends with Shaleah playing the game and never leaving.

Totally valid to file a player complaint about a Templar that you don't think is playing in good faith.

I was playing a Salarr Family Member who was basically held liable for OOC shortcomings IC. The Templar in question ordered a custom craft (Surprise) and gave no real indication or instructions or specifics over what the end result should look like, just that it be made of a certain material. The item was made, and they were expecting it to be worn on the 'arms' slot and it was on the 'forearms' slot instead. They blew a lid, IC, and told my PC they were an idiot, incompetent, and so on. Alright, that's cool, but I just took it all IC and stopped taking orders from that Templar really and life went on. Offered to change it for free (OOC, contact staff and ask if the wear location could be changed) and they again rolled IC and said 'no it's fine I'll take it you're just an idiot'.

Life moves on, and then more orders come in from this Templar. The orders are put in, but we are going through Staff changes at the time, and things slow down, which happens in GMH often. It's fine. It should be expected. Your widgets are taking longer than usual. But, the Templar decides to go to Defcon 10, and start threatening my Salarr PC's employees (two of which are the master-crafters of the clan) as a sort of 'meta dig' (Well If I can't have anything, then no one can!). Demands to have the items in question in X amount of time or else.

So -- I filed a player complaint. This was outside of the normal ken. I was being held responsible IG for things that are entirely out of my control OOC, and then there are going to be IG consequences for that. Staff took a look at the situation from all sides. They agreed that Templars absolutely have authority to be dicks and assholes and demanding, but that in this case, it was a bit too much to hold a PC responsible for OOC constraints (Mastercrafts take at least 30 days, they can only be crafted when there are master crafters around, orders have to be filled by Staff and not in person by a PC most of the time, and so on). No one was stored, it was just a course correction.

So -- I think people should be less afraid of filing player complaints, particularly if they have a constructive course correction to offer for that leadership PC. Staff may not always take your point of view (they certainly haven't taken all of mine, particularly in recent times), but they do seem to consider everything objectively, or at least as much as they can. I doubt they want Murderhobo Templars instead of Templars that adhere to and reinforce documentation, foment plots and not end them all, and try to make their area of influence fun and dangerous.

And then there's people like me who WANT killing templates cause "back in my day" they [Templars] *were* realllllllly corrupt and murderous.

Players get attached to their characters,  their plots. The sheer amount of time and care it takes for the characters to "get good" is INSANE when you can go click buttons, pair up with your buddy and go storm thecastle,  get l33t l00t and respawn immediately to try again.

What am I trying to say?

The problem isn't [location] - it's never the location. It's so much more complicated than that. 

The Armageddon I stopped playing a couple years ago was nowhere near as thematic as it was when I  started playing.  It's crazy to me [cause I'm old] that people think THIS is brutal and hostile. 

The issue could possibly be narrowed down to this question... How can we have fun playing a "game" when one of the objects of the game is to "live a full, rich life"  and one of the others is to master the code to make thriving in the world easier?

Do you live or do you grind?

Do you want to deal with the city dangers or the dangers in the wild?

YOU choose your reality when you create your character, my people.  Allanak is murderous and corrupt and oppressive.  It's simple.  Don't play there if you don't like that.

Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Also 'Content Positive' vs 'Content Negative'. It's the responsibility of Templars to reinforce documentation for their area of influence.

As an example, an escaped slave from Allanak will absolutely be killed if it is recaptured, particularly a Mul. They can't be reconditioned, and are therefore useless as a slave, and set a bad example for other slaves. It would be odd (though perhaps there would be extenuating circumstances IG) for a Templar to just release a recaptured slave.

Most people aren't escaped slaves.

Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
As another example, if an elf criminal is given a second opportunity after being captured once, it isn't likely they will be given a third opportunity. They were given their second chance. Allanak is a brutal place. If everyone just receives hand-slaps, the authority of Allanak is laughably lax.

Most people aren't elves. The people who are, don't get third chances. Nor second ones. They don't even do crime before they get killed.

Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
As another example, if a soldier deserts from their post and they are caught, they are executed. They aren't given a hand slap and told 'don't do that again'. The PC on the other side of that equation should be well aware of that -- if they aren't, I don't really know what to say.

Most people aren't soldiers.

Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
As another example, if you are a mage in Tuluk and are discovered, you should absolutely expect a fate worse than death. There is historical precedent in Tuluk for the level of mage hatred they have. I have yet to see an exception to this.

Most people aren't mages (yet). And certainly, the amount of Gemmed suggests that it's one role people do still play.

Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
I find that people that are surprised by the brutality of either Tuluk or Allanak and their ruling class aren't paying very close attention to the documentation of the game world, and are then surprised when others reinforce it. It's pretty cut and dry to me. I don't see Templars stomping out every thief or elf they catch -- If anything I see them trying to show restraint, particularly on first meetings, and offering an opportunity to not shit the bed. Then, they shit the bed, and expect the Templar not to make good on their threat of 'if I catch you next time, there won't be a next time'.

Nobody is surprised, is the thing. I have played this game for a decade. Triste has played it for even longer. The amount of people who are bright-eyed and new is a rounding error on Armageddon. People have played the game, for years and years; people have experience with how things were two, five, ten years ago. Pretending that they don't know the things they see and have seen is extremely condescending.

From the OP:

QuoteI think we all know it, but right now, Allanak has barely a population of players.

'The city is working as intended, nobody has done any wrong' is a valid opinion. The city is also a bit of a ghost town, which is difficult to square with things working as intended. Don't think anything should change? Fine. I find it unlikely that things will, too, and in the end the game owes nothing to anyone; Allanak can remain empty and desolate.

I don't think folks are trying to be patronizing - they're working with what they've got in the thread. There have been a number of posts from folks who seem to have recurring bad outcomes from their encounters with Templars, but almost uniformly these posts omit any indication of what actions or speech their PC was engaged in prior to execution.

Does this mean there are not templars negatively impacting the game with excess PK? No, that could be true, or it could be perceived as true and have the same chilling effect as if it were on activity in the region. But I find it unlikely that templars are simply blithely murdering whoever they happen to encounter for no reason or provocation whatsoever. Again, that is not to excuse templar PCs (it's really hard to judge a PK situation in the abstract since details matter and every situation is different) but if one player is repeatedly losing PCs to templars, templars are not the only constant in this equation that might merit examination.

PS, templars do kill without justification. I had a character a year or two ago who was accused of being a sorcerer (not true), clan dumped and killed in her clan hall. When I whined about this a while after I was told "Yeah your character was totally innocent and was framed to spare someone else's life. If you knew all the details, you'd think it was really cool!"

Victim blaming, little less cool. Some deaths I deserved but the facts are Templars often mash that kill button, "order guard kill stooge" or whatever it is. Outcome is, "sucks for you!" Remember kids Patuk has good advice here.

I've also lost PCs who were wrongly accused of being mages, spies, etc. It sucks tremendously, but it's not killing without justification. The justification is that you are presumed to be a sorcerer. If the templar knew you were innocent and they were in on it... that's still "justified" and it sucks tremendously.

What would you like to change to prevent that? I'm asking genuinely, not being snarky. What rule would improve that experience? "No framing people" is kind of silly and I don't think that's what you're suggesting. But what would you do differently?

Is it a bad time to mention that I haven't died to a templar ever. Nor have I ever been executed in Allanak. I've been captured as an abomination and dissapeared a few times in tuluk, but every time there is an ounce of corruption present, none of my characters ever died.

Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 04:46:05 PM
Is it a bad time to mention that I haven't died to a templar ever. Nor have I ever been executed in Allanak.

You aren't the only one!

Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 04:46:05 PM
Is it a bad time to mention that I haven't died to a templar ever. Nor have I ever been executed in Allanak.

Yes, because it invalidates everybody else who has experienced that.

It's not a good argument if it is summarized by "it doesn't happen to me, so it doesn't happen ever."

Templars have been complained about for a long, long time, by people that don't like the brutality of either city states. I think that's fine. I don't think that's a thing that needs to be fixed. There are clans outside those city-states if you don't like Templars, or you can be independent. I think Templars and their brutality are a staple of the game, and I have only seen 1-2 of them in my time that were genuinely murderhobos. Frankly, I think some of the stories are exaggerated. There's always a tale that you don't see behind the enemy. My one suggestion would be trying to do some of the corruption, as said in the name-sake of the game.

What I -do- believe needs to be fixed, however, is the lack of fun in city clans. My personal opinion is, that when the majority of the active world is independent, hardly any plots or happenings get pushed forwards because you often get little virtual support or political sway as some random dwarf hunter outside of 'threaten grebber' 'say drop bag' or 'cast mon un fireball'.

I personally would be playing in city clans (like the AoD for example) all the time if they had things to do that didn't entirely rely on PC criminality (which leads to soldiers getting very over-eager when it comes to enforcing crimes, even petty ones due to boredom), or RPTs that are ultimately very sparse in number. Not to mention how these clans and cities are almost always depopulated in recent times so even if you tried, your PC would have a whole lot of difficulty making up schemes of their own. This all heavily discourages clan play, and creates these empty cities. Everyone's out doing their own largely inconsequential thing instead of clanning it up.

I think this is one of the biggest "Allanak Problems".

How do you fix this? I'm not entirely sure. My only suggestion would be allowing people to role-app into being a Private or Trooper or the equivalent role in these clans, to skip the month of IRL time you need to invest before you're able to be counted as a full member inside that clan. More horizontal promotions could be added in to allow these apped-in roles space to still distinguish themselves. I personally don't play in clans all too often because I hate the boring times between RPTs and inside-city happenings, all the while the wait you need to do to become a full-fledged member of that clan. Being a recruit for the first time is cool, but for the eighth time? No thanks. I would much rather play as a tribal which spawns you in as an accepted member with immediate virtual support, or a clan that allows you to leave the gates to go hunt chaltons or what have you. The new sparring NPCs are a good step forwards in facilitating play in city clans such as the AoD/Legions, and I think it was a very good change for the better.