Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:53:27 PM

Someone please tell me why it is such a big deal to have a simple disclosure saying you must be eighteen plus to play this game?  Why is that such a big deal?  Why is it wrong to go ... I don't want fourteen year olds RPing being adults and engaging in romance with other characters?

It isn't wrong by a long shot. I too don't want 14 year olds (or anyone under age) to be RPing adults and engaging in romance with other characters.

I don't think a disclaimer will stop that from happening.

Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
Or why there is such a push to have minors participate in a game we all know is not kid-friendly in any shape way or form.

Bebop,

This statement is False. No one is PUSHING minors to participate in anything. You want people to take you and your posts seriously, but then you write inflammatory allegations like this, that are harmful to the community. There are MANY, many more games with MUCH persuasive advertising targeted towards minors that you should be taking this fight up against if you feel this strongly about the subject.

You could have simply sent in a request and said Hey Staff, could you put in a one liner in the account generation process to let people know this is a game for adults, and not appropriate for minors, so minors please get your parents permission before playing. Remember though, what is and is not deemed appropriate for each child is dependent upon what their parent's decide, not us.

Quote from: lostinspace on September 24, 2019, 11:50:21 AM
I'd rather lose the sexual RP and keep the younger players and characters.

I think you're onto something here. I'd much rather have a game that is friendly to children rather than have an 'adult' themed game. I've never really grasped the sexual roleplay, and while I don't care if others do it at the end of the day this is a fantasy themed "fighting" game. Not a sex-themed "fetish" game.

Quote from: Krath on September 24, 2019, 03:03:18 PM

Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
Or why there is such a push to have minors participate in a game we all know is not kid-friendly in any shape way or form.

Bebop,

This statement is False. No one is PUSHING minors to participate in anything.

Quote from: kahuna on September 24, 2019, 03:05:07 PM

Quote from: lostinspace on September 24, 2019, 11:50:21 AM
I'd rather lose the sexual RP and keep the younger players and characters.

I think you're onto something here. I'd much rather have a game that is friendly to children rather than have an 'adult' themed game. I've never really grasped the sexual roleplay, and while I don't care if others do it at the end of the day this is a fantasy themed "fighting" game. Not a sex-themed "fetish" game.

Say again?

The statement is still false, where is the PUSH you are talking about to have minors play? If you are uncomfortable emoting out, or fading to black, like delirium said:

Quote from: Delirium on September 24, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
The consent rules in place are enough. If this is something you are personally worried about as a player, then bring it up when asking for consent, or don't engage in that sort of roleplay, period. This goes for any mature content.

Heh, I'm not pushing for minors to participate in adult roleplay. I'm just saying if you're making us choose between 18+ or not I'm against it. I'd rather have a game that doesn't have sex rp and be open to all kinds of players than have one that forces 18+ themes on many of us that don't even want it.

I've said what I believe.  And I still believe it.  Arm, as it stands, is not for minors.  There is constant flirting, romance, nudity, sexuality, drug-use and gore.  It has not and has never been "family-friendly."  You guys can make the decision to make Arm more family friendly, or you can put a small stipulation that the game is for adults and take a stance to keep minors from RPing adult themes with adults.  Right now, it's some where in between.

I think it's ethically and legally questionable to say that sexual RP isn't allowed if you're under eighteen but you can be a minor and engage in adult relationships, pregnancy, drug-use, murder and torture with a player base that is predominantly quite adult.  Just no mudsex.  Have fun kids!  Not really my MO.  Is anyone enforcing that the minors that get into this game then don't RP sex with adults behind the screen?  No.

This conversation says a lot about us culturally and I'm not really sure what to think right now, so I'm deferring the conversation to you all and staff to consider what's being said and act or not act.

I've said what I think and why I think it.  I guess maybe I would have had better luck posting anonymously on Reddit after something already went very awry, than attempting to engage my own community about a concern proactively.  God forbid we be proactive here.

Clearly the sheer absurdity of adding a single line to character gen to confirm you're over eighteen to play this game is a hellscape which would bring it to ruin.  Certainly, adding small disclosure of this kind would be far more perilous than say a fourteen year old roleplaying out a sex scene or romantic relationship with a forty year old without any such attempt at preventing such a thing.  Priorities, right? 

Quote from: Brokkr on September 24, 2019, 02:57:41 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on September 24, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Please at least have the courtesy, if you are going to throw around arguments based on the law, to have a specific understanding of what the laws are.

Quote from: Heade on September 24, 2019, 02:47:01 PM
First off, there is no jury in a civil case.

While not the case internationally, in the US we do have juries for civil trials.

You're right. High profile cases involving corporations and punitive damages will almost always have a jury. But most civil cases do not. If it is a family law case(divorce, estates, custody, etc), any small claims suit (varies by state, but generally under $10k), a probate case, or a case involving a juvenile, it is heard before a judge or magistrate rather than a jury. Since arm isn't exactly overflowing with profits, I'd contend that any civil suit brought would fall under one of the above categories.

But it doesn't really matter. The point is to have that 18+ clause to protect the players and creators of the game from both civil and criminal liability while maintaining the integrity of the game world as it was intended.

Literally it already says 18+ we aren't going to card you to make an account there is no fucking way to verify.

Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 03:13:27 PM
I've said what I believe.  And I still believe it.  Arm, as it stands, is not for minors.  There is constant flirting, romance, nudity, sexuality, drug-use and gore.  It has not and has never been "family-friendly."  You guys can make the decision to make Arm more family friendly, or you can put a small stipulation that the game is for adults and take a stance to keep minors from RPing adult themes with adults.  Right now, it's some where in between.

I think it's ethically and legally questionable to say that sexual RP isn't allowed if you're under eighteen but you can be a minor and engage in adult relationships, pregnancy, drug-use, murder and torture with a player base that is predominantly quite adult.  Just no mudsex.  Have fun kids!  Not really my MO.  Is anyone enforcing that the minors that get into this game then don't RP sex with adults behind the screen?  No.

This conversation says a lot about us culturally and I'm not really sure what to think right now, so I'm deferring the conversation to you all and staff to consider what's being said and act or not act.

I've said what I think and why I think it.  I guess maybe I would have had better luck posting anonymously on Reddit after something already went very awry, than attempting to engage my own community out a concern proactively.  God forbid we be proactive here.

I think you're exaggerating the amount of adult stuff that goes on in the game. Most of the stuff is combat oriented, fighting, sparring, etc. Some PCs engage in it but I'd be interested to see statistically how many do (which is impossible). My time here has been long and storied and I rarely run into it so we've obviously had two very different experiences on the game.

I have seen sex scenes in teen fantastical fiction books, aren't they for 13 to 19, not just 18 -19? If so, then it makes no sense for Arm to be 18+ for sex. I feel like a lot of modern day fantastical fiction books are just reflecting on real life things. Just my two sids.

Quote from: kahuna on September 24, 2019, 03:05:07 PM
I think you're exaggerating the amount of adult stuff that goes on in the game. Most of the stuff is combat oriented, fighting, sparring, etc. ... at the end of the day this is a fantasy themed "fighting" game.

If that is what arm is, I'm not interested. But I don't agree with you. That isn't what arm is.

If you haven't had that sort of experience in arm, it could be because of what you personally focus on playing. If you're the guy who always pushes everyone else to get to the sparring room, and ways everyone you know to get them there and so on, you sort of mold your own experience. A lot of players/characters aren't going to way you and say they're mudsexxing, robbing a house, or torturing someone for information or pleasure and are otherwise indisposed. You should also be aware that a LOT of people play this game and specifically avoid all clans or organizations that have "sparring" as part of the schedule. I assure you there is much more to the game and RPing experience than combat-oriented activities. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say there are at least as many players who almost NEVER use the combat code as there are those who focus on it to the exclusion of other types of RP.

I see no harm in asking for a player's age however...
Players will lie to play the game anyway and there is no true way of enforcing this.


My one daughter is DYING to play it. I told her when she's 18.

Quote from: Derain on September 24, 2019, 03:19:55 PM
Literally it already says 18+ we aren't going to card you to make an account there is no fucking way to verify.

Where does it already say that? If you can point that out, I think that would satisfy most reasonable concerns (unreasonable concerns won't be satisfied until this is either a bona-fide sex mud, or until it is fully Disneyfied.)

Why not just add the line to account creation? One time "verification" that says you're an adult, and then we're done.

I will admit that I'd prefer Arm to remain adult themed. I've never played a whore, but I want that option to be possible. I want to be able to write in my rinthi background that my character survived off of whoring during a young age and that fucked him up so bad that he is now psychologically open to murdering people ... en masse. Just so he would NEVER need to do the things he did before.

I want to play a character like that. I want to stumble into characters like that. Or worse. It's a gritty atmosphere mud. It's one of it's best qualifying factors. It's why I played Armageddon, instead of SoI when that was an option.

I like complicated anti hero character traits. I like villains to be villains because their lives are fucked up. I like Deadpool more then Avengers. There. I said it.

It's my personal preference and if the GMs begin to whitewash away the grit just to appease some people who go out of their way to find faults, I will probably move on to some other mud.

Quote from: Dune Bunny on September 24, 2019, 04:27:26 PM
Why not just add the line to account creation? One time "verification" that says you're an adult, and then we're done.

I think this is the easiest, too.  As has been suggested.

I agree that it won't keep kids from playing the game.  Rating movies R doesn't keep kids from watching them.  That doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do to put the information out there, for many of the reasons stated.

People often don't read a wall of text.  I'd like to see it something that has to be replied to.  "Yes, I am over 18."

I think protecting the players and staff of the game are worth that effort.  It doesn't seem like much trouble to go to.  If there ever is a problem, we have to remember that most people out there won't "get" us, or our hobby.  Why not put forth a bit of effort to avoid that?

It's not as if children are hard to identify based on their behavior IC or OOC. I don't condone sexual roleplay with minors, but if you end up in it, you're either willfully ignorant or easily duped. Otherwise, the rest of the themes don't seem like they'll be permanently damaging to a minor's psyche. Teenagers study genocide and torture in school; playing a game that features it isn't going to rot their fragile little brains. Rating boards like the MPAA and ESRB are based around profits and liability, not around what people consider moral.

Mostly I just don't want us to have to stone Thomoto to death. He's a good kid.

Quote from: Delirium on September 24, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
The consent rules in place are enough. If this is something you are personally worried about as a player, then bring it up when asking for consent, or don't engage in that sort of roleplay, period. This goes for any mature content.

Quote from: MeTekillot on September 24, 2019, 05:47:07 PM
Mostly I just don't want us to have to stone Thomoto to death. He's a good kid.

+1 to that.

I think all parties can be happy by just being more vigilant about the already existing consent rules and maybe specifically confirming the age of players present.

Why not make a policy that all sexual role-play would be Fade-to-Black, and move forward from there. This would solve many problems.

Quote from: Wasteland Wanderer on September 24, 2019, 05:54:34 PM
Why not make a policy that all sexual role-play would be Fade-to-Black, and move forward from there. This would solve many problems.

I am not in favor of anything that restricts roleplay options within the bounds of existing policy and law. I think the best analogy for Armageddon is literature legally speaking. If a policy like this were applied to Armageddon it would feel like:
- The Fire of the Vanities during the Renaissance
- Literary censorship during McCarthyism
- Farenheit 451

I am not in favor of that at all.

Sexual roleplay makes deeper character connections, making it that much more satisfying to backstab someone's waifu to hurt them.

My 2 sids: Having played many, many, many sexual relationships without explicit play beyond PG-13'ish fades, I'll put in that there isn't much lost by fading from a roleplaying perspective. I'm of the opinion that it actually opens up a lot of time you'd otherwise be spending erping for more interesting interaction. So instead of emoting about fornication for 45 minutes or whatever, you can have a 2-3 minute fade scene and 40 minutes of relationship RP.

I also cut out the weird IC/OOC concerns as stated above and do not make anyone feel too awkward roleplaying with me. I think some players are understandably embarrassed if they find out the player of their IG partner isn't within their desired parameters.

I don't know of any RPI with a policy like this, nor is it enforceable like the suggestion from OP. Are Imms now going to have the job of looking for people who ERP and ban them with this policy? Seems counter to the intent of OP anyway.

I again stick to my literature analogy,  I don't enjoy 1940s style censorship.