Please Make Arm 18+

[Bebop]

In light of the recent change to eliminate characters younger than the age of 16 on Arm I would like to address another problem.

Although, I do not think RPing sex as a young character is good.  I think the real problem is making sure that players are not under eighteen years old.  Although the documentation says you must be eighteen to engage in sexual RP I would argue that Armageddon is thematically eighteen plus.  We need to protect real minors, not character minors that do not really exist.  I am much more concerned about an adult RPing sexually with a real minor, than two adults pretending to be minors.

While younger players will likely always creep in, I would urge staff to take a stance that Armageddon is thematically eighteen plus due to violence, drug use and sexual RP here. There is no way to get through this game without being hit on, propositioned, or seeing the various echoes about whores and vast sexuality.  I am not comfortable with the idea of engaging in any kind of romantic role play at any level with a player that maybe younger than that of eighteen years old.  Not flirting, not having them watch a strip show, and certainly not sex.  Newp.

I am also not comfortable RPing out graphic torture scenes with say a fourteen year old.

Muds are in a grey area because we are not beholden to things like T through M ratings.  Armageddon can not be rated by standard video game means.  This is much more comparable to a forum, chatroom style RP and the fact of the matter is the game has harsh themes that should not be accessible to non-adults. 

Please protect current players, younger would-be players, and the MUD overall by making sure we are never responsible for someone under the age of eighteen engaging in inappropriate scenes.  And although the docs say no RP with minors?  Players currently have absolutely no idea who is a player that is under eighteen and can play the game, just not sex.  There is no way to know.  We are are all safer by disallowing players who are minors.

At the end of the day, there are real people behind these keyboards and while we're on this topic I think this absolutely needs to be addressed and enforced by staff going forward.  This game is not the same as having a fourteen year old playing a tabletop.  If this were a chatroom or something it would definitely need player age restrictions.

[AdamBlue]

To be honest, though, I don't think it'll change much. Armageddon is implied to be adult, and while I wish there was a way to stop kids from playing because of the content, there's no way to gate it. Saying '18+ only' would probably actually attract more kids, and have the opposite of the intended effect. Kids are exposed to extreme casual violence on a daily basis through all forms of media that they'll ignore the warning messages, except for a few parents who 'don't want their kids exposed to sexual content', which is perfectly acceptable, but as always it's up to the parent to monitor what the fuck their kids are getting up to, not the people on the internet who provide a website, a gameworld, or anything else online. If a parent is letting their kid play Armageddon, then they're a bad parent or at least one that doesn't care, and that is none of our faults.

TLDR; Putting up a banner saying '18+' is only gonna make it more interesting towards teenagers who wanna break the rules.

[Dar]

I agree. We should definitely make it eighteen plus. That'll entice more young people to try our mud.

[Aromit]

Notes:
   You must be 18 years of age or older to ask for or give consent for sexual roleplay.

This is from the rules of consent. (see: help consent)

[Bebop]

Hi Aromit.  I know that it is.  But my point is that there is a lot more sexual RP that goes on other than outright RP such as strip teases, flirting, sexual behaviors, romantic relationships and so forth.  There is a lot of grey area here where a minor could exchange in soft sexual role playing in the game.  Likewise, how comfortable are people RPing nudity and intense gore/torture scenarios with like ... a thirteen year old.  I am not.  I think the entire game needs to be officially eighteen plus.

Also, the stating it's not eighteen plus because it'll entice more kids is like the ... let's not outlaw murder because it'll happen anyway, argument.  So let's not do that, please.  Sites with adult material have a social responsibility to keep kids away.  Maybe those barriers are flimsy but the game can at least take a stance.

The game is thematically not for children.  Our tagline alone makes that pretty clear.

[X-D]

But my point is that there is a lot more sexual RP that goes on other than outright RP such as strip teases, flirting, sexual behaviors, romantic relationships and so forth.

All of which happens in PG-13 movies.....

Just sayin.

[Bebop]

But my point is that there is a lot more sexual RP that goes on other than outright RP such as strip teases, flirting, sexual behaviors, romantic relationships and so forth.

All of which happens in PG-13 movies.....

Just sayin.

The difference is that in a movie a minor is watching the movie.  It is not reciprocal.  There is not an adult behind a computer screen pretending to be in a relationship with a character they're playing.

I mean, we can address this now, or we can address this when something goes horribly wrong.

[razorback]

Is the plan to force everyone wanting to play to submit three forms of I.D.?

Driver's License
SSN
Proof of Address?

While I understand and agree that the game isn't intended for minors nor should they be playing it, unless you actually plan to enforce something like the above, then the liars are still going to lie. It's the internet, and it is the ugly side of it, but the truth. You don't really know that the person claiming they're 18 is really 18.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Maybe we need a more prominent warning regarding consent and sexual RP.

I don't think the entire game needs to be 18+, because... Kids are gonna play it anyway, and it'll just make us look even more sex focused and lessen our possibility for outreach and more player integration in the long run.

We've been fine for 20 years without putting the entire game behind closed doors. We're already seen as a place people only go to fuck. I'd rather not solidify that image, because then this game will well and truly be in a downward spiral to its death. Or at least, its utter stagnation.

[Barsook]

TLDR; Putting up a banner saying '18+' is only gonna make it more interesting towards teenagers who wanna break the rules.

I agree on this because I have done this when I was a teenager for certain games, including Second Life.

[perfecto]

This entire thing baffles me, from raising the min char gen age to these heckles for +18?

Maybe someone somewhere said something negative about this game we love (that I haven't seen or heard of) and that's got you all up in arms to fix it?

I've played this game for 23 years now and never, in the history of -ever- have a witnessed any PC or NPC or VNPC do anything sexual in any sense of the word with a childish figure.

If there really is some creep out there doing anything of the sort I hope the Imm's post their IP address for public knowledge and I'll go burn their house down personally but..

I think the only reason It's an issue this week is because We're making it an issue this week.

The people who play this game, love this game.  We're a community; from around the globe yes, but a community non the less.  We may chop each other up with bone swords, but we all care..   This issue should not be an issue. Period

[Lizzie]

This came up years ago. The point is...the ONLY reason to even have an age restriction is to hold the company harmless in case someone who violates the restriction does something that mom doesn't approve of, and tries to sue the company.

The company can say "well this here is proof that the player declared that he's 18, if he lied, that's on you for raising a rotten kid." Unfortunately, this strategy doesn't hold up in a court of law (there have been court cases about it).

It doesn't hold up in court, it doesn't deter kids from playing, it is certainly not a barrier to playing. All it does is make kids think "ooh - juicy game, totes trying it tomorrow."

In short, it's a kid-magnet advertising gimmick.

The more you emphasize sex - even by saying "don't do that" - the more enticing it is to people interested in games that emphasize sex.

Armageddon already has a LOT of emphasis in the official docs about sex. What it means, gender code, rape rules, consent rules, monogamy, equality of sexes...there's SO much written ABOUT sex in the docs, of COURSE kids are going to be attracted to playing it. All they see is sex sex sex, and they haven't even made an account yet.

If sex in the game really and sincerely isn't a big deal, we need to get rid of MOST of the documentation about it.

[Namino]

For what it is worth, I have never had a character that lived more than a few days played that has not been propositioned for sex. This includes fiercely isolationist roles like SLK. Despite making zero effort and having zero interest in sleeping with anyone with a character as difficult to approach as any in the game, I was still having to turn down sex. In the discord last night, a staffer was lamenting the fact that their gick was often swimming in tail and they should be the hardest to love characters in the game.

The reason I point this out is that the argument 'well the whole game isn't 18+!' is meaningless. No, not every piece of the game is. But, I contend it is impossible to play this game for any length on any character without having to make 18+ decisions, given the near certainty of a proposition for sexual roleplay. That has been my experience.

There is little to no way for a 14 year old to play Arm without having to turn down sex at some point.

Do we want a child to be the only one safeguarding the proper decision making process there?

Yes, people could still lie about their age and play anyway, but it's important to force a lie. That's why pornsites have that click through screen.

[Derain]

It's not enforceable unless you just make all sexual activity fade to blackk, no consent just straight fades.

[Namino]

I agree that it's unenforceable.

It is also my opinion (and the opinion of at least the US legal system) that there is an important ethical distinction between someone misleading you about their age vs not doing the due diligence of asking at all.

I don't play Arm at the moment. Not a well kept secret, so I'm not in danger of getting into a dangerous liaison with someone played by a child.

But if I was, I'd like to think there was at least a small barrier standing between me and that.

[AdamBlue]

I agree that it's unenforceable.

It is also my opinion (and the opinion of at least the US legal system) that there is an important ethical distinction between someone misleading you about their age vs not doing the due diligence of asking at all.

I don't play Arm at the moment. Not a well kept secret, so I'm not in danger of getting into a dangerous liaison with someone played by a child.

But if I was, I'd like to think there was at least a small barrier standing between me and that.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...
YOU want protection from accidentally being a pedophile in a fictional online game where everyone is assumed to be an adult, and framed it in the guise of 'protecting the children'?

[Dar]

Hahaha. Very true


We're not doing this to protect the children. Children know 'exactly' what they're doing. We're doing this to protect ourselves. Which is fine. It's lame, but it's the sign of the times. Not big enough deal to raise a stink over it.

I'm cool with the way things are. Age of 16 is an age of consent in most countries. Some are lower, but I dont think there are any that's higher. Are there?

To be honest. I would feel a little bit uncomfortable with a twenty year old as well. It's sad to say this, but they're kids in my mind as well.

[titansfan]

This seems silly. When I was a teenager starting this game,  I knew there were very adult concepts to it. I've never been big into the whole mudsexing thing but I've definitely been in my fair share of slaughter,  bloodshed, and torture/sacrificial stuff. The kids will always get through whatever barriers are stacked up.

[Namino]

Yeah...

I mean, I'm a little confused at your response Adam. I did say people will lie but it's still important to make the effort for the sake of ethical accountability.

I just want to clarify that you don't feel the possibility of exchanging explicit sexual messages with someone underage is concerning because... you already assumed without asking that they're an adult? And because the character they're currently cosplaying is fictional? That's the line you're taking on this?

[Gentleboy]

Hi all, I'm real mixed about this!

I do agree that the possibility of me being an adult and engaging in sexual activity with a minor (unbeknownst) is horrifying.

I'm 22 now, I started Rping (on other sites and forums) when I was 13. That helped me to become the writer and described I am now. Drugs, sex, and violence aren't radical ideas that 13+ year olds are just hearing about. Especially if they have somehow found a MUD game on the internet.

If a minor found this game, they must have been searching for it. And why? Because they want what we want. Beautiful writing and a realistic environment to practice and grow in.

So: yeah, I'm mixed on the topic... not the sex part. Yeah no: please let's not engage minors sexually.

[triste]

Agree with Gentleboy for all the same reasons. I started mudding when I was 11 and when I started winning national writing contests as a kid I even joked to the Poet Laureate of the United States that it was because I played MUDs.

I think the most pragmatic thing we can do as players in this situation is before ERP (not necessarily just the graphically sexual, romantic at all) that we OOC and ask if the other player is over 18.

I also want to dispell all the bad press and implications from previous posters that this is some kind of hotbed for paedophillic activity and that "justifies" not playing. When I started mudding as a kid it was with a bunch of classmates, family members, friends from the library -- the same people I played DnD with. I don't want to deny anyone a great hobby like this.

[Namino]

Hey. If we're swapping stories.

I was 12 years old when I had my first explicit sex scene in a mud with a female player 23 years my senior.

She lived close to mr irl and we started exchanging emails and text messages outside the game soon after with her asking me to come see her.

Idk if she knew how old I was. I like to think not and that she would have been horrified had she known. But she didn't ask and I didn't tell because there was just a culture of assumption. If she had asked, would I have lied? Maybe. Like I agreed, it's not enforceable. I don't know because no one, her or otherwise, asked me at any point.

Maybe you're the sort of person who looks at that and goes 'the twelve year old is the one who had the onus to be the responsible party here'! Idk.

Triste's suggestion is fine. As long as somewhere between chargen and the explicit sexual depiction, someone gets expressly asked their age, idgaf.

[triste]

It may be best to just ask because if you stamp 18+ over the game kids are going to sneak in anyway and it adds a smutty implication to the game. If you actively ask the kid is going to have to make a decision to tell the truth or not and it is more clear and contractual.

From my experience more gross/wrong stuff happened over instant messaging apps but not a single widely used instant messenger app has decided to handle it by making the whole platform 18+. That would be ludicrous and more importantly it wouldn't work. Just ask if someone is 18+ before doing 18+ things problem solved.

[lairos]

I started playing Armageddon when I was 15 or so. While I am all for ensuring we protect the community as a whole I dont see how this really does anything but attract those players and there is no way to manage stopping them from playing.

Much akin to these 17+ video games that 12 year olds are playing and some of them do have that to where they are given options for sexual situations. They may not be typing directly but they certainly are moving forward on those and getting it visually instead.

I'm all for options to protect the community it's just a matter of how and I dont see how this does that for us if it cant be managed. We have the 18+ in the consent rules so I'm not sure what else needs to be done.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Putting a big "18+ ONLY, SEXY GAME" sign up will only make more sex and less RP happen.

It fucking sucks when awful things happen to younger people. But younger people are gonna play the game anyway, so yknow what'll happen if we start gating things off? Silence. The young folk who do get iffed over will stay silent out of guilt and/or fear they'll be banned for being under 18.

Instead of shutting the blinds and barring the doors, we should be reaching out, offering support, and bettering the way we deal with reports of misbehaviour so people actually feel safe about coming forward with this.

Additionally, monitoring newer players' actions for a time might be an idea.

Closing things off will not only hurt the game, but those you currently see as at risk.