Please Make Arm 18+

[triste]

Apologies, McCarthyism and obscenity laws were 1950s, I am giving antiquated and oppressive policies too much credit here.

[triste]

The main thing I am arguing for here is this: we can be self governing, we do not have to constantly rely on staff to make sweeping policy updates that result in a restriction of what we do in game. Armageddon is the best RPI available because it is immersive, and you don't get immersion with artificial barriers and policies that cause you to suddenly lose parts of the playerbase. I can agree with OP but that would involve losing players like the one Metekillot mentioned. I can agree with a FTB policy but that is censorship and across the planet most developed countries have agreed censorship is bad for art and expression.

So how about this novel idea that other posters have promoted: the consent rules are clear so follow them and ask player age along with consent.

[Lizzie]

The main thing I am arguing for here is this: we can be self governing, we do not have to constantly rely on staff to make sweeping policy updates that result in a restriction of what we do in game. Armageddon is the best RPI available because it is immersive, and you don't get immersion with artificial barriers and policies that cause you to suddenly lose parts of the playerbase. I can agree with OP but that would involve losing players like the one Metekillot mentioned. I can agree with a FTB policy but that is censorship and across the planet most developed countries have agreed censorship is bad for art and expression.

So how about this novel idea that other posters have promoted: the consent rules are clear so follow them and ask player age along with consent.

I'm fine with an opt-in line during account creation that says something like:

Armageddon is considered an adult game. By submitting your application you acknowledge that you are at least
[whatever the age of consent is, in the location of the server] years of age. Please see "help consent" [with a hyperlink to that help file] for scene-specific rules.

[triste]

I'm fine with an opt-in line during account creation that says something like . . .

Yeah, I am fine with this and OP's suggestion after seeing counter proposals to limit RP options because there is nothing I dislike more than censoring and limiting possibilities in game. Let's keep the possibilities open in Arm like they are in art/literature. It's just a bit cruel to players who have mentioned they are under 18 and I wish this topic didn't come up at all. The existing policies from a legal perspective are fine.

[Miggy]

Legal age of consent in Illinois (where I believe the server is still located?) is 17, and in much of the country (USA) is sixteen. Some states it is 18. I believe the consent rules, plus the recent minimum age upping of PC's to 16, is enough. Also, without the ability to send pics, which seems to be the main concern of text based apps as far as the law is concerned, it would be difficult to hold anyone playing out a sex scene in a text based game legally accountable. I feel if you have a moral issue with it, it's safer to just FTB or not RP sex at all.

I don't see a lot of harm in having a disclosure statement like Lizzie suggested, but for the record, I think it's silly that we have to. If its a vote, I say to leave things as they are.

[Derain]

Apparently it no longer says 18+ hut the website used to. Disclosure statement is a decent idea I guess.

[LindseyBalboa]

Having an 18+ rating in America means your media is geared toward sex. If Arm is listed as an 18+ MU*, it will be labeled as a sex game. This is a game about people living in a wasteland, elves, dwarves, magic, and sorcerers. That's why I'm against an 18+ rating, because it will attract people that want to play this game like it's Shangri-La. I just found this game, and I want to keep playing a game about desert elves and mutated humans killing each other and betraying one another at the drop of a hat.

However.

I'm all for players being responsible. This is in the rules as-is, and if it's not being followed, that's against the intention of the game. Don't pose graphic sex in public. If you see that, report it. If you see shit that's shady, report it. If you decided to role-play sex, ask for consent. Ask for age, if that makes you feel better.

Armageddon having an 18+ rating does nothing at all in this regard except attract people that think that rating means sex is going to happen. There are already rules in place regarding age, consent, and sexuality, which is the norm for roleplaying MU*s. At best, a question at account creation might be helpful where it asks your date of birth, so staff can keep tabs on those that declare themselves underage, thereby removing a step from staff's workload. But quit acting like this is protecting minors (it's not), quit acting like it'll protect the game legally (it won't). It comes down to players having to be responsible, just like it does in real life with people having to follow the law and be responsible, and just like it comes down to in any other media.

One last time for the people in the back, an 18+ rating will do much more harm than it would good. An "adults only" MU* means only one thing, and you know what that is.

[Barsook]

I'm all for players being responsible.

[Bebop]

To me it's very simple.

Does the game allow for extensive role play into graphic torture, sex, romance, killing, slavery, abuse, death, war and drug use?  Yes.  Then it is a game for adults.  Or make it seventeen plus.  Make it whatever age you can legally consent where you are.  But at this time we have no age limit at all.  Meaning a ten year old could be on this game, and by not having a standard we're saying that's okay as a community.

It's really, really fucked up to me that some people want to allow all of the graphic/sexual material in game but also want to conveniently not disclose that this is the dynamic of the game by putting a stipulation that you must be an adult to engage in a very thematically adult game.  If you don't want an eighteen plus standard on this game then don't have the following themes permitted to be RP'd in graphic detail. 

Trying to do both... having a game that is extremely graphic... and also NOT labeling it as graphic is not transparent and borderline immoral.  It is really, really sketchy you guys.  I have RP'd some raunchy ass sex, torture and death in this game.  I'm asking we be transparent that that kind of stuff goes on in our game.  And those kinds of things are not things I want to do alongside fourteen year olds.  Not with them.  Not around them.

If Arm was family friendly I wouldn't be advocating for some kind of protections for minors and adults playing this game in place.

If staff would like to make Arm more family friendly in lieu of making it transparent that the game is graphic by requiring people to be an adult to RP adult themes that's another choice.  This fence sitting, to my mind, is really questionable.  I for one, will not be playing Arm if it goes the family friendly route.  It still does not make it kid friendly at this time.  To me, the honest and transparent thing to do is make sure that is clearly disclosed and gate keep to make sure this is not a game where adults can engage with sexual, romantic and graphic RP with minors.

I want to also emphasize that you do not have to engage in ERP (where the 18+ consent rule) comes into play for sexual things to happen to your characters.  Characters will still be sexual, hit on characters, and say sexual flirtatious shit to them all day without ever needing to drop an ooc:  Consent?  Meaning that minors on this game will definitely and inevitably be exposed to sexual behavior without this consent rule ever mattering at all.

Hell, just walking into The End in Luir's one is exposed to sexual RP.  Why?  Because sex is thematic to this game.  And I love that it is.  What I don't love is the idea of playing in that world alongside a fourteen year old.  What I don't love is that a fourteen year old can be exposed to sexuality, romance and flirtation by someone who, behind the keyboard, is forty years old without consent ever coming into the discussion because flirting and romance don't require consent.  That is not okay, it is not okay to RP romantically with minors.

Can we police everyone to make sure they're following the rules or that they didn't lie about being legal age of consent?  We can not.  But it's about culturally taking a stance one way or the other.  To say, that we will not engage minors in graphic role play regarding sex, drugs, nudity, torture and intense adult situations intentionally alongside a majority adult and player base and we will do this by requiring our players to be adult.  We can control ourselves and what we as a community find acceptable.

If they lie to us, that's on them.  It's about stating intent.  Right now there are no age regulation on anything but direct ERP and I will continue to say that that is not enough and no one is enforcing that as it is.

[MeTekillot]

To me it's very simple.

Every person who plays the game is not you.

[Bebop]

To me it's very simple.

Every person who plays the game is not you.

It would stand to reason that by qualifying my opinion as solely my own perhaps no one would understand that better than myself.  But thank you for your heartfelt and valuable contribution.

I would also like to say, that the potential for sexual abuse and misconduct is no laughing matter.   Especially not when minors are involved. 

So you all will have to pardon my insistence on this issue because I believe it to be very, very important.  And I did not realize until recently that there were no age standards to this game as I had always assumed that due to the graphic nature of it it was for adult use.

Sometimes these issues come up.  Like the rape issue.  Or using "necker" as a racial slur and euphemism for the real life "n" word.  I am not going to apologize for bringing up something I feel is very important socially, culturally and legally.

Even if it doesn't go how I think it should go, even if this is not an easy discussion to have --- this is a discourse we need to have as a community.  Here.  Not on Reddit.  Not with strangers making us accountable.  And I don't regret starting it.

[MeTekillot]

The "necker" issue was kind of oddly handled, in my opinion, as we still fully allowed the use of the word "gypsy", which is fully a racial slur IRL instead of a stand-in for one. We also call elves "slant-eyes" and "slants".

Knowing sexual liaison with minors is already covered under the law where Arm operates. I don't believe that writing terrible collaborative smut is covered under it. I've already stated how obvious it is when your roleplay partner is underage, or just dumb. This proposed policy change is unnecessary and will be ultimately harmful to the game's player numbers with no benefit whatsoever.

[Veselka]

Does the game allow for extensive role play into graphic torture, sex, romance, killing, slavery, abuse, death, war and drug use?  Yes.  Then it is a game for adults.  Or make it seventeen plus.  Make it whatever age you can legally consent where you are.  But at this time we have no age limit at all.  Meaning a ten year old could be on this game, and by not having a standard we're saying that's okay as a community.

A 10 year old could be on the game with or without a disclaimer that you should be 18+ to play the game.

It's really, really fucked up to me that some people want to allow all of the graphic/sexual material in game but also want to conveniently not disclose that this is the dynamic of the game by putting a stipulation that you must be an adult to engage in a very thematically adult game.  If you don't want an eighteen plus standard on this game then don't have the following themes permitted to be RP'd in graphic detail.

Literally no one is advocating for not disclosing that it is a game with mature themes. I think people are skeptical that a disclosure or disclaimer about this would do anything more than further amplify that the game is all about mature themes -- It isn't. Is there mature content? Of course. Is the game a FurryMUD? No. Is it a ERP focused MU*? No. We have extensive help files on consent and included in those help files is that you should be 18+ to engage in sexual RP.

Trying to do both... having a game that is extremely graphic... and also NOT labeling it as graphic is not transparent and borderline immoral.  It is really, really sketchy you guys.  I have RP'd some raunchy ass sex, torture and death in this game.  I'm asking we be transparent that that kind of stuff goes on in our game.  And those kinds of things are not things I want to do alongside fourteen year olds.  Not with them.  Not around them.

Of course this stuff goes on. Spoiler alert, you probably did those kinds of things alongside 14 year olds already. I too would like to limit underage people engaging in that behavior on the platform that is this game, but a disclaimer or an account signature that you are X age or higher isn't going to actually stop people that are underage from playing the game. The only thing that will stop those people from engaging in that activity is to remove that activity altogether, thereby disallowing them from participating.

If Arm was family friendly I wouldn't be advocating for some kind of protections for minors and adults playing this game in place.

If staff would like to make Arm more family friendly in lieu of making it transparent that the game is graphic by requiring people to be an adult to RP adult themes that's another choice.  This fence sitting, to my mind, is really questionable.  I for one, will not be playing Arm if it goes the family friendly route.  It still does not make it kid friendly at this time.  To me, the honest and transparent thing to do is make sure that is clearly disclosed and gate keep to make sure this is not a game where adults can engage with sexual, romantic and graphic RP with minors.

Staff literally can't do anything about it. Again, if there is a disclaimer or 'click through' option where you consent that you are 18+, people who are not 18+ will still click through and play the game. This means that those people will still be around you, except you will have the personal peace of mind that everyone must be telling the truth if they are playing a PC, and are 18+.

I want to also emphasize that you do not have to engage in ERP (where the 18+ consent rule) comes into play for sexual things to happen to your characters.  Characters will still be sexual, hit on characters, and say sexual flirtatious shit to them all day without ever needing to drop an ooc:  Consent?  Meaning that minors on this game will definitely and inevitably be exposed to sexual behavior without this consent rule ever mattering at all.

True. I was exposed to this when I played the game before I was 18. It didn't melt my brain or turn me towards Satan or make me into a sexual deviant. I was also reading Game of Thrones at the time which had copious mentions of female genitalia and was generally way more sexually creepy than anything I encountered in Armageddon.

Hell, just walking into The End in Luir's one is exposed to sexual RP.  Why?  Because sex is thematic to this game.  And I love that it is.  What I don't love is the idea of playing in that world alongside a fourteen year old.  What I don't love is that a fourteen year old can be exposed to sexuality, romance and flirtation by someone who, behind the keyboard, is forty years old without consent ever coming into the discussion because flirting and romance don't require consent.  That is not okay, it is not okay to RP romantically with minors.

It's the world we live in, Bebop. If you're worried about 14 year olds reading descriptive lines about naked prostitutes and dancers in the Storm's End in Luirs...I mean the world as it stands right now will drive you crazy.

Can we police everyone to make sure they're following the rules or that they didn't lie about being legal age of consent?  We can not.  But it's about culturally taking a stance one way or the other.  To say, that we will not engage minors in graphic role play regarding sex, drugs, nudity, torture and intense adult situations intentionally alongside a majority adult and player base and we will do this by requiring our players to be adult.  We can control ourselves and what we as a community find acceptable.

If they lie to us, that's on them.  It's about stating intent.  Right now there are no age regulation on anything but direct ERP and I will continue to say that that is not enough and no one is enforcing that as it is.

Again, I posit that this idea of a disclaimer or '18+ acknowledgment' does nothing to solve the problem of underage people playing the game and being exposed to the themes. Even if there was a gigantic banner on the main website before it even took you to the main webpage of 'Mature Content ahead: 18+ only, you consent you are 18 years old by clicking through', it would do nothing to stop underage people from clicking through and playing the game. It just offers to give you personal peace of mind that if they did that, it's on them, and not on you.

[MeTekillot]

Well said.

[Bebop]

It's really ick to me that what I'm also seeing arise is this idea that I'm puritanical and prude because I want to protect minors who can not consent to reciprocal romantic/graphic/sexual RP as or with an adult.

The world does not "drive me crazy."  Anyone that knows me knows I embrace sex and sexuality freely.  I'm a Satanic advocate of nudity, gender equality and lust.  As a consenting adult.  I am also a victim of sexual abuse as a minor and adult.

I can still be that adult and understand adults have to be gate keepers in their communities when it comes to minors and consent.  I am not making judgement calls about how erotic and romantic RP between a fourteen year old and an adult will do to them long term.

What I am saying is as the adults in the room embracing sexually graphic and violent RP we are responsible for creating standards as a community.  And I don't think it's asking a lot to say as a community this game about muder and betrayl with graphics sex and violence options is not for ten year olds or fourteen year olds.  That is a very low standard indeed.

This is not a book or a standard video game or movie.  This game is reciprocal.  It is not okay to have a fourteen year old engage romantically with a player in their thirties on the opposite side of the screen.

You can't control everyone but that doesn't mean you should go oh well.  Guess we won't set any standards as a community at all.  Vague minors shouldn't directly RP sex aside.

[Dar]

You know. I think accursed lands mud asks you if you are eighteen upon account creation. Not character creation, but account creation. I don't actually know what happens if you say no to the question. I've been answering yes since I was 14.  Regardless, it is not mentioned anywhere that it's an 18 year mud. In fact, it really isn't. It's not populated enough to be any type of mud at all. I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.

[Bebop]

Also this persistent argument about how people will sneak on anyway needs to go.  By that logic why have any laws or rules?   Why forbid character disclosure.   Why do anything?  Why have statutory rape laws?  Will it still happen?  Yes.  You make laws for a few reasons.

To take a moral stance on issues
To stipulate consequences for rules broken
To protect people

This strawman anarchy business needs to stop.   People are always going to break rules.  It doesn't mean rules are an effort in futility.

[MeTekillot]

Guess we won't set any standards as a community at all. 

You can see the standards we set via the 'help rules' command, as well as perusing the website's sections on the game rules.

[Bebop]

You know. I think accursed lands mud asks you if you are eighteen upon account creation. Not character creation, but account creation. I don't actually know what happens if you say no to the question. I've been answering yes since I was 14.  Regardless, it is not mentioned anywhere that it's an 18 year mud. In fact, it really isn't. It's not populated enough to be any type of mud at all. I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.

This is exactly what I'm requesting.  An age standard in the rules and stipulated at character/account creation.  This is not game breaking.  It's a small step towards taking a stance against exposing minors that can not legally consent to sexual and graphic RP as a community.

[triste]

I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.

This is where I am at basically, the point of concession where all parties are happy. Slapping it all over the site will create an expectation for new players and hurt the roleplay environment. Adding it to chargen will collect data on players identifying if they are 18+ in an auditable way. Dubious as to who will be "saved" by this but all parties can be happy. Only a handful of casualties such as the player Metekillot mentioned (sorry lil buddy).

[Veselka]

You know. I think accursed lands mud asks you if you are eighteen upon account creation. Not character creation, but account creation. I don't actually know what happens if you say no to the question. I've been answering yes since I was 14.  Regardless, it is not mentioned anywhere that it's an 18 year mud. In fact, it really isn't. It's not populated enough to be any type of mud at all. I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.

This is exactly what I'm requesting.  An age standard in the rules and stipulated at character/account creation.  This is not game breaking.  It's a small step towards taking a stance against exposing minors that can not legally consent to sexual and graphic RP as a community.

No -- You're requesting a sleeping pill so you don't have to think about the problem anymore.

Creating a disclaimer doesn't stop people from lying about their age. If your actual problem is underage people playing the game and being exposed to mature content, there are pretty extreme steps that Staff could take to correct course and remove adult related themes/mature content from the game. That way, there is 0 chance that a minor will be exposed to mature content or themes, regardless of whether they lie about their age or not.

If your problem is knowing that underage people play the game, then adding a disclaimer that you should be 18+ to play the game will allow for you to stop thinking about it.

It isn't game breaking to add a disclaimer. But it also does nothing to address the actual perceived problem of underage people playing the game and engaging with mature themes. All you are codifying is a mysterious 'legal barrier' between the game's participants and the game developers. What you are addressing is culpability. A Disclaimer isn't going to suddenly drive away underage people from playing the game. It may deter some -- It may encourage others.

Minors who can't 'legally consent to sexual and graphic RP' will do exactly that, even if it is illegal. I started looking at porn websites when I was 14-15, even though it was federally illegal. I started playing Armageddon around the same time.

The only way to prevent minors from engaging in that behavior on our MUD is to remove that possibility entirely. I'm not against removing ERP from the game and requiring FTB. As Is Friday said earlier -- We could get that much more MCB accomplished without it. But that isn't exactly what you are positing -- You believe that a 18+ Banner/Inclusion in the rules (even though it is already included in the consent helpfile) would be a cure all for the MUD. No more 14 year olds or underage people would play the game. If they did, it's their fault. How does that fix anything?

[Veselka]

Also this persistent argument about how people will sneak on anyway needs to go.  By that logic why have any laws or rules?   Why forbid character disclosure.   Why do anything?  Why have statutory rape laws?  Will it still happen?  Yes.  You make laws for a few reasons.

To take a moral stance on issues
To stipulate consequences for rules broken
To protect people

This strawman anarchy business needs to stop.   People are always going to break rules.  It doesn't mean rules are an effort in futility.

I think we could just as easily tell you to stop your liberal fascist handwaving. But we aren't. We're trying to drive to the crux of the issue, and discuss why or why not a '18+ Only' disclaimer would benefit or not benefit the game and the community. It's a Discussion Board, not a Soapbox Forum.

Maybe stop telling people to stop? I think that's Staff's purview on the discussion board, not yours.

[Delirium]

This thread has pretty much run its course and we are going in circles.

Not gonna lock it but let's take some chill pills and a break from the circular debating and borderline attacks.

[Marauder Moe]

You know, actually, most major pron sites DON'T have an "18+ only" splash page, at least not anymore.

I'm not sure that Armageddon MUD needs to be held to a higher standard than pr0nhub.

[Lizzie]

We could go the total other way around, and have a warning on account creation:

"Warning - this is NOT a sex-themed game, and as such, we do have minors playing it. If you absolutely insist on ERPing your character's way into fame and fortune, please be advised that you might be ERPing with a 12-year-old whose mom doesn't realize her kid is fapping to a text game."