Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: Dresan on June 16, 2020, 02:15:39 PM

Title: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 16, 2020, 02:15:39 PM
While there have been improvements to the rinth lately playing a long term character out of the rinth can be painful lonely experience.

Instead of living in the rinth, and visiting southside slowly it become the other way around because the rinth lacks many of the feature that allow players just live their lives.

While lawlessness is a cool concept in theory it doesn't really work that well in practice.

I think there should be more hidden PC to act like soldiers on behalf of gangs. Gangs should enforce basic laws for those that have payed a monthly fee. Humans can pay for protection from westside gangs, elves can get protection eastside.(half-elves, dwarves and giants can pay either or both)  The area would be lawless for anyone hasn't paid or isn't the right race in the right area.

For those that have paid, they would get similar protection like with  other civilized locations, while people committing crimes against protected folk the would be wanted in that part of the rinth. Protected folk going after protected folk would be handled like cities.  Anyone performing magic would become wanted and attacked by gangs. Anyone would be able to find out if the person paid by waying an npc who can way you back and let you know if the name you've told them is protected or not.  Finally, protection feels for rinth locals would be reduced.

By providing these features to the rinth, people can live more normal lives in the rinth while steel keeping it a very unique location and feel.


Hostile NPC should stop attacking protected PCs.This will reduce the need to have to have stealth or just leave unconscious dead NPC everywhere in the rinth the moment you get one nice dagger. This current state of the rinth really promotes the  need for stealth in order to survive.

Lastly each side should have a set of apartments, which you can only rent if you are also protected.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 16, 2020, 02:20:44 PM
(This probably should go in general discussion feel free to move)
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 16, 2020, 02:46:04 PM
While I like the lawlessness mostly as it is now, I agree with the idea of east-side west-side protection for one key reason: to kill the meme of rinth gangs falling apart due to "murderhobo" [term mildly offensive] infighting.

At least three people have talked about this meme. Everything is going well in the 'rinth, until one (1) west sider starts war with the east side, or vice versa, or some form of infighting occurs. Everyone then backstabs eachother in a flurry and suddenly the 'rinth goes from 12 active players to one active player because you can't backstab yourself.

I have been so irritated when I've seen one (1) twinklord get so full of himself that he kills EVERY npc in the 'rinth, or singlehandedly starts a war with a gang, because it kills plots and makes no sense. As someone who grew up in a ghetto and has lived in several ghettos in several states, I can tell you an average block will have at least four people who will jump in on a fight if it breaks out to back up their gang or their people. Usually it's closer to 20 people. This idea is great not only for protecting PCs and plots, but for being realistic.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Pew Pew on June 16, 2020, 03:08:12 PM
I have been so irritated when I've seen one (1) twinklord get so full of himself that he kills EVERY npc in the 'rinth, or singlehandedly starts a war with a gang, because it kills plots and makes no sense. As someone who grew up in a ghetto and has lived in several ghettos in several states, I can tell you an average block will have at least four people who will jump in on a fight if it breaks out to back up their gang or their people. Usually it's closer to 20 people. This idea is great not only for protecting PCs and plots, but for being realistic.

I can attest to the above, I have been on both sides of Triste's description.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: mansa on June 16, 2020, 03:57:30 PM
I think any area of the game that would be a place that can be 'self contained' should have the following things:
a) a relatively safe space to store items/gear/treasure
This can be apartments, clan storage areas, warehouses

b) shopkeep NPCs that buy/sell items obtained/crafted from NPCs/foraging in the area.
This can be NPCs that buy rocks, food items, weapons, armors, containers, etc

c) a gathering place that is relatively safe for most players
This is usually a tavern or bar, but can also be a firepit or market.

d) two or three clans that can be joined to provide a focus (be that the clans' directives and purpose) to players who haven't thought that far about what to do.
This helps maintain a steady storytelling background by providing permanent political forces in an area

d-2) clan strength and enforcement via NPCs that will auto assist players within those clans with combat.
This can be something players can push towards - having their 'guard' npcs slowly expand and push out into different rooms and territories of the area.

e) "empty" areas in the game that can potentially be turned into home bases or estates for future player-created clams.
In the labyrinth, this is usually done by having empty and abandoned buildings.  These areas can be claimed by players and eventually turned into a home base.

f) more hobos to murderkill. A systematic approach on how to progress in your characters skills within the area.
Everybody wants to increase their coded skills and get better.  There should be a progression of how to get better at stealing, throw, slashing weapons, pick making, value, armor repair, and most skills that players have.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Khorm on June 16, 2020, 05:53:18 PM
what mansa said

i like elements of this. i think they're important points to consider when approaching zones of the game, but i also worry that making all of them a requirement would lead to a sort of weird homogeneity. if you take the same formulaic approach to areas you might end up with areas losing what makes them special or interesting and leaving them feeling somewhat flat.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 16, 2020, 06:19:54 PM
The way i picture it is a smaller area around tavern+apartment would be the most secure with largest number of NPCs (guards).  One on the far west, and one on the far east.

Paid protection (crim-code) would work like it does at night in redstorm/luirs. Unforgiving but slightly less effective the more you move away the secure locations and non-existent in the middle.

The central areas of the rinth would be neutral where the crazy murdering hobos roam.

This gives it its own unique flavor, providing some order while surrounded by all the lawlessness, and it allows for non-stealth characters to actually have a more enjoyable time and chance here, at least as good of a chance as any other location.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 16, 2020, 06:35:52 PM
The central areas of the rinth would be neutral where the crazy murdering hobos roam.

This gives it its own unique flavor, providing some order while surrounded by all the lawlessness, and it allows for non-stealth characters to actually have a more enjoyable time and chance here, at least as good of a chance as any other location.

Yeah this is great, seems possible to implement, and by definition represents a compromise between how things are now (the central zone) and the desire for a small degree of setting appropriate stability.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 16, 2020, 07:53:33 PM
Yeah. The aggressive checkpoints and aggressive npcs should be moved further north the central area as well. The less savory shops would still remain there too requiring stealth or combat skills.

It would still be an incredibly dangerous place full of dangerous people working for and against different kind of interests around Allanak but more akin to Redstorm in play-ability.

And both redstorm and luirs can be pretty damn fun with some people to play with as a change of pace from southside allanak all the time.

I actually feel if you were to set up rinth like this, you would get more small gangs/crews forming up all on their own. Probably more so then anywhere else due to the mixture of freedom+proximity to allanak.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: rinthrat on June 17, 2020, 05:16:22 AM
 The NPCs aren't aggressive if you dress appropriately. If they attack you, that's on you.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 17, 2020, 08:32:49 AM
Lets be real. In terms of playability how many people don't get at least 1 nice item. Getting stuff is part of the game,and its a big part since you see how much people complain when they are losing  items as well as all the new items that come out regularly.   

Yeah most people are poor, but some people there have both coins and influence. The gang leaders and established PCs shouldn't be dressed in rags. They shouldn't need stealth to walk the streets, everyone would know not to fuck with them.

I am not saying aggressive NPC should exist just that they should exist in a smaller section of rinth that would be considered uncontested territory by the gangs. 

Tuluk doesn't need to come back, but Rinth needs to be brought up to the level of Luirs and Redstorm so we have another dense city environment that isn't allanak(southside).

Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 17, 2020, 08:49:48 AM
The NPCs aren't aggressive if you dress appropriately. If they attack you, that's on you.
This counterpoint doesn't address the full argument and has done an excellent job of distracting from the merits of OP's post without actually refuting the bulk of the arguments there.

This maybe refutes one of the points OP made. Maybe.

I know how to dress down to not get mugged. Let's pick just one of the other topics introduced though. We still need this to address some of the game, plot, and reality breaking crap that goes on now. I am annoyed when twinky-PCs are able to do stuff like kill multiple gang affiliated NPCs in a bar without any repercussions. After a twinky-PC does something like that, logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

It's also a headache for Staff when said twinky-PC [who is in effect exploiting broken mechanics OP is proposing we fix] ends up killing a more "permanent" NPC and Staff have to replace them. Really, it's silly, and if there was even just one tweak to code and mechanics that can fix this all-too-common and reality-defying scenario? I'm all for it.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: rinthrat on June 17, 2020, 10:32:41 AM
The NPCs aren't aggressive if you dress appropriately. If they attack you, that's on you.
This counterpoint doesn't address the full argument and has done an excellent job of distracting from the merits of OP's post without actually refuting the bulk of the arguments there.

This maybe refutes one of the points OP made. Maybe.

I know how to dress down to not get mugged. Let's pick just one of the other topics introduced though. We still need this to address some of the game, plot, and reality breaking crap that goes on now. I am annoyed when twinky-PCs are able to do stuff like kill multiple gang affiliated NPCs in a bar without any repercussions. After a twinky-PC does something like that, logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

It's also a headache for Staff when said twinky-PC [who is in effect exploiting broken mechanics OP is proposing we fix] ends up killing a more "permanent" NPC and Staff have to replace them. Really, it's silly, and if there was even just one tweak to code and mechanics that can fix this all-too-common and reality-defying scenario? I'm all for it.

OP suggests a lot of things that are already in place, unfortunately. Which makes it very difficult to argue about them. You need to pick apart a bunch of assumptions that are made, but aren't explicitly stated.

"Oh, the game should have X." - "It already has X, so - what exactly needs to change? Are you not aware of this? Am I misunderstanding you somehow? What do you want to change/do differently?"

I did not want to type out pages of this. And suggesting that you need combat or stealth skills to get past the checkpoints suggests that "OP is not aware how things work" is likely.

Quote

logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

Every single clanned NPC that sees this does attack twinky-PC. It would be nice if there was a sort of crimeflag attached to doing this that would reflect other NPCs being notified via the way. It doesn't make much sense outside of very busy spots, though. And it's not what OP suggested. OP

Edit: And that scenario of someone coming into the tavern and slaughtering everyone? It's not common at all.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 17, 2020, 10:47:17 AM
I did not want to type out pages of this. And suggesting that you need combat or stealth skills to get past the checkpoints suggests that "OP is not aware how things work" is likely.

I was aware, but again as mentioned above, how practical is it in a game where crafting and acquiring stuff is noticeable part of its gameplay.

The majority of people use stealth or go across knocking out everything in sight.

Kudos to those people that are willing to play without ever acquiring anything worth more then few coins but it doesn't detract from any of the other points I've made.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: rinthrat on June 17, 2020, 10:49:06 AM
Lets be real. In terms of playability how many people don't get at least 1 nice item. Getting stuff is part of the game,and its a big part since you see how much people complain when they are losing  items as well as all the new items that come out regularly.   

Yeah most people are poor, but some people there have both coins and influence. The gang leaders and established PCs shouldn't be dressed in rags. They shouldn't need stealth to walk the streets, everyone would know not to fuck with them.

I am not saying aggressive NPC should exist just that they should exist in a smaller section of rinth that would be considered uncontested territory by the gangs. 

Tuluk doesn't need to come back, but Rinth needs to be brought up to the level of Luirs and Redstorm so we have another dense city environment that isn't allanak(southside).

Everyone in the 'rinth is 'dressed in rags'. Including the gang leaders. It's the setting of the place. And it's pretty jarring when someone decides that they need to walk around in kryl armor, leaves behind a trail of dead NPCs, and acts like that is perfectly normal "oh they attacked me first".

Leave the nice items for Southside. In the meantime put them in a bag, your clan storage area, wherever. If you absolutely need to wear them everywhere, don't play in the one place in the gameworld where that isn't acceptable.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 17, 2020, 10:52:06 AM
I disagree with you. Its a place where the majority are poor and there are very little in the way of resources but there are also some very powerful well connected organization working there.

I doubt the are starving or lack in anything they want.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Doublepalli on June 17, 2020, 11:00:44 AM
Oh eastsiders definitely visit the Guilds tavern like nobodies business, because they can/no virtual enforcment of westsides territory fr fr
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: rinthrat on June 17, 2020, 11:06:31 AM
I disagree with you. Its a place where the majority are poor and there are very little in the way of resources but there are also some very powerful well connected organization working there.

I doubt the are starving or lack in anything they want.

Have you checked what these NPCs are wearing?

Quote
Oh eastsiders definitely visit the Guilds tavern like nobodies business, because they can/no virtual enforcment of westsides territory fr fr

The point wasn't about visiting, this was about twinky mc twink showing up and killing everyone inside.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 17, 2020, 11:32:18 AM
Quote

logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

Every single clanned NPC that sees this does attack twinky-PC. It would be nice if there was a sort of crimeflag attached to doing this that would reflect other NPCs being notified via the way. It doesn't make much sense outside of very busy spots, though. And it's not what OP suggested. OP

Edit: And that scenario of someone coming into the tavern and slaughtering everyone? It's not common at all.

Keepin' it vague, but I've seen it happen twice in an IRL year span, or 5 IG years. That's far too frequent enough. I know it's the 'rinth, but who the hell can run a business when your employees get killed or assaulted so frequently. More importantly, it sucks for all the player characters and plots destroyed.

Again, about four people have joked about this, and even made meme (visual assets) about it. Memes often exist to describe things that happen to the point of becoming a stereotype. Yes, it does happen. Often.

Quote
Oh eastsiders definitely visit the Guilds tavern like nobodies business, because they can/no virtual enforcment of westsides territory fr fr

You removed the author when you quoted him there, but oh, he knows.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 17, 2020, 11:38:04 AM
It would be nice if there was a sort of crimeflag attached to doing this that would reflect other NPCs being notified via the way.

On a constructive/positive note I do want to say I agree about this. Because it reiterates my/OP's point.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: mansa on June 17, 2020, 11:44:31 AM
I'd like clarification on what's the problem with the labyrinth as it currently exists?


Is the problem that the Labyrinth is lacking for stuff to do, and that is forcing players out of the zone to get a more fulfilling playtime?
Is the problem that anybody can be killed by anybody and there's no NPC soldiers to keep the peace, so there isn't a 'safe space' for players to roleplay in and not worried about being killed?
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 17, 2020, 11:45:25 AM
Second point, but revise soldiers to affiliated gang members. Because obviously there wouldn't be soldiers in the rinth. I'll also let OP speak for himself.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 17, 2020, 11:46:11 AM
I'd like clarification on what's the problem with the labyrinth as it currently exists?

Not to derail, but when are you going to play again? :)
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: valeria on June 17, 2020, 12:50:04 PM
I'd like clarification on what's the problem with the labyrinth as it currently exists?

Is the problem that the Labyrinth is lacking for stuff to do, and that is forcing players out of the zone to get a more fulfilling playtime?

I don't know about the OP, but this has been my problem every time I've tried to play in the Rinth, and I've been there with both humans and elves.  There are no places to forage for most things.  Even though the entire place is a rubble heap, you can't forage stones, you can't forage food in most locations even though picking up bugs and half-rotten kalans should be your go-to for getting by, you can't forage city-style trash 'artifacts.'  You're pretty much forced into the City alleys to forage, which is counter-intuitive.  There aren't any rubbish piles like there are in the City proper, even though they should be there by room description.  It has a very few generic NPCs, despite the dynamic NPCs that now are available and exist elsewhere in the world.  It only has rats, even though it should also have lizards, especially on the roofs like they now have in the City proper after the big roof revamp.

After the description revamp, I think most or all the room descriptions got really buffed up and thematic, and the Rinth got a lot more 3D.  I love that.  I just think the rest could use a little love and fleshing out.

Is the problem that anybody can be killed by anybody and there's no NPC soldiers to keep the peace, so there isn't a 'safe space' for players to roleplay in and not worried about being killed?

I wouldn't agree with this sentiment though.  If this is your problem with the Rinth, I think you should just play somewhere else.  It's lawless by design, unless you're associated with one of the gangs in your gang stronghold, which is as it should be imo.  Though I have an issue with the ability of someone to just stand outside and throw knives into a tavern with no repercussions, if that's still the state of things.

I do think there should be more NPCs, especially in a range of skill sets that you usually see represented by PCs, including some that assist each other or assist people in certain clans.  Every time I've played there, elf PCs will hunt down people hunting elf NPCs and human PCs will hunt down people hunting human NPCs.  It makes very little sense to have a few big bad muggers on the streets, with the rest of the population mostly weak beggars and children just waiting for someone to skill up backstab on them.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 17, 2020, 01:18:53 PM
Regarding people tossing knives into taverns, it is still an issue, including at the Gaj. A lot of my gripe on that frankly might be resolved with a guard or bouncer NPC out front, or an inner room with said guard. Awesome another idea that happens to conform with reality.

Regarding people killing kids, that is my other gripe in a previous comment and possibly one of OP's. I get that in a strife stricken area there are wolves and sheep but things are so severely imbalanced that usually the sheep just end up dead en masse. You say you disagree about gang member protection, but you are effectively agreeing with your more NPCs comments. Yes awesome, these people we agree we want are east side west side guards, gang protection, people with backstories and stuff.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: valeria on June 17, 2020, 01:27:27 PM
Edit for page-roll conext:

Regarding people tossing knives into taverns, it is still an issue, including at the Gaj. A lot of my gripe on that frankly might be resolved with a guard or bouncer NPC out front, or an inner room with said guard. Awesome another idea that happens to conform with reality.

Regarding people killing kids, that is my other gripe in a previous comment and possibly one of OP's. I get that in a strife stricken area there are wolves and sheep but things are so severely imbalanced that usually the sheep just end up dead en masse. You say you disagree about gang member protection, but you are effectively agreeing with your more NPCs comments. Yes awesome, these people we agree we want are east side west side guards, gang protection, people with backstories and stuff.

I disagreeing with Dresan's crim-code idea specifically.  I think the Rinth should remain lawless, i.e., without crim code.  You're correct that I don't disagree about gang member protection/NPC-assists.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 17, 2020, 02:00:04 PM
To clarify while I am not proposing add 'law' or 'soldier', but I am proposing security through a crim-code which would be enforced by the gangs and the population which in the area.

The gangs are supposed to control territory, some NPC's already act as sentries if another npc attacks you.People shouldn't be walking around with active visible spells or openly casting. The locals and gangs should react. I think the place can have a few more secure location for PC without effecting the lawless theme.

I see more rinthi PCs living and playing almost anywhere other then the rinth, originally if you started in the rinth you should live there but most don't. Unless you can see hidden people magickally the place usually feels lonely because even if there are PCs there is a high demand for stealth.

Ultimately, I think my biggest problem with the rinth is it that the current state of the rinth does not support mundanes PCs or mundane interests very well. Frankly, I think the magickal protections afforded to Allanak southside should be present in the rinth as well (this would make for an awesome plot too ;) ).

 
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Gentleboy on June 17, 2020, 11:03:10 PM
Weird little tidbit,

I'd like it to be clarified that the rinth and the alleys aren't just always shady and dark. The suns beat down just as hard in the streets. If anything, the air would be thick and hazy. There aren't like garments over the walls to cast artificial shade.

I think that taking away the always 'dark' features of the rinth will help to make people realize that daylight exists even in the darkest parts. Dark hoods, black armors, why such an emphasis on the dark in a place with barely any shade? I've been thinking of that.

It's like in our minds, the rinth is a constantly dark place where the sun doesn't touch....BUT IT HAS TO.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on June 17, 2020, 11:25:49 PM
Weird little tidbit,

I'd like it to be clarified that the rinth and the alleys aren't just always shady and dark. The suns beat down just as hard in the streets. If anything, the air would be thick and hazy. There aren't like garments over the walls to cast artificial shade.

I think that taking away the always 'dark' features of the rinth will help to make people realize that daylight exists even in the darkest parts. Dark hoods, black armors, why such an emphasis on the dark in a place with barely any shade? I've been thinking of that.

It's like in our minds, the rinth is a constantly dark place where the sun doesn't touch....BUT IT HAS TO.

I mostly agree that tHe DaRkNeSs is played up too much, but check out these aerial photos of real life cities that are split by rich/poor like allanak [source: natgeo]
(https://i.ibb.co/9ys1WHw/splitcity1-Capture.png) (https://ibb.co/fr4yHd8)
(https://i.ibb.co/zX9DwxJ/1splitcity-Capture.png) (https://ibb.co/X70MTL8)

Notice that the streets are narrower. Hence less sunlight than the rich side.

Hence the 'rinth sometimes being called the narrows or the alleys. Hence those narrower streets being dark.
Furthermore buildings in the rinth can be around 3 stories so they are closer to the slums of Lima, Peru, Brazil, some old european cities. So arguably the 'rinth would be even darker than the slums in those photos if I am judging the heights of the buildings correctly.

However, I completely agree that the 'rinth would not be 100% lightless. Kowloon walled city is an example of a slum with a good percentage of sunlight-less area, but that slum had buildings 5+ stories and sustained by modern architecture.

TLDR: comparing the 'rinth as described [slums with narrow streets and up to 3 story tall buildings] to real life slums indicate it would be darker than the rest of Allanak in the most likely case, but probably not as dark as currently described.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Doublepalli on June 18, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Quote
Oh eastsiders definitely visit the Guilds tavern like nobodies business, because they can/no virtual enforcment of westsides territory fr fr

You removed the author when you quoted him there, but oh, he knows.
[/quote]

Not sure what that's supposed to mean Triste or who you think I played ..but I was definitely on the receiving end of eastsiders opening the guild door, murdering guildie NPCs and PC's alike in the tavern and eastsiders having more time spent Westside than Eastside....let's not forget the sewers, or the gicks spamcasting in them

There's definitely a disregard for gangs and territory. People just don't care. If they can do it, they do it.

So I'm for more hardcore npc responsive retribution - because staff aren't always watching or care.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: number13 on June 18, 2020, 01:45:00 PM
Some old ideas that I've expressed before:

1) The Rinth should be a magic-free zone -- not even templar magic . Maybe Nilizi should be able to cast within the Rinth, but that's the end of it. There should also be some rooms in the Rinth that are psionically dead. 

This gives the Rinth a reason to exist, both ICly and OOCly, as a playground for mundanes.

2) Sections of the eastside and sections of the westside should be their own crime code jurisdictions, but only certain PCs/NPCs should be protected. If you toss a dagger into the Folley, or if a round-ear decides to backstab someone at the Basement, it should be nigh certain coded death via NPCs.

Related, the Basement NPCs should protect elves that get attacked, automatically.

3) The item prices that trigger the muggers should be increased somewhat. A newbie wandering in with starter gear shouldn't be jumped. At the same time, the strength of (some) muggers should be vastly increased....to Red Storm gang levels at the very least. And there should be automatic triggers that set off alarm bells at the staff level when an armored dwarf wanders into the Rinth to slaughter all the NPCs, so that rinthi powers-that-be can be animated and respond...with poisoned darts and brute squads.

The Rinth should be a playground for rinthi, not armored dwarves.

4) More hidden stuff. A lot more. The Rinth should be absolutely lousy with hidden crevices and secret passageways. It's got a few; maybe it's got more than I know about. But however much there currently is, it's not enough. Every other room in the Rinth should have some hidden fun in it.

Related, more salvage areas, for the recovery of material components of use to spell casters. Since elementalists are screwed in the nu-Rinth, they'll have to take extreme risks or employ mundanes to go in and grab stuff.

Related, a source of poisons in the Rinth. There should be (more) mushrooms growing around the rinth, in various hidden crevices.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Narf on June 18, 2020, 03:40:24 PM
Some old ideas that I've expressed before:

1) The Rinth should be a magic-free zone -- not even templar magic . Maybe Nilizi should be able to cast within the Rinth, but that's the end of it. There should also be some rooms in the Rinth that are psionically dead. 

This gives the Rinth a reason to exist, both ICly and OOCly, as a playground for mundanes.

2) Sections of the eastside and sections of the westside should be their own crime code jurisdictions, but only certain PCs/NPCs should be protected. If you toss a dagger into the Folley, or if a round-ear decides to backstab someone at the Basement, it should be nigh certain coded death via NPCs.

Related, the Basement NPCs should protect elves that get attacked, automatically.

3) The item prices that trigger the muggers should be increased somewhat. A newbie wandering in with starter gear shouldn't be jumped. At the same time, the strength of (some) muggers should be vastly increased....to Red Storm gang levels at the very least. And there should be automatic triggers that set off alarm bells at the staff level when an armored dwarf wanders into the Rinth to slaughter all the NPCs, so that rinthi powers-that-be can be animated and respond...with poisoned darts and brute squads.

The Rinth should be a playground for rinthi, not armored dwarves.

4) More hidden stuff. A lot more. The Rinth should be absolutely lousy with hidden crevices and secret passageways. It's got a few; maybe it's got more than I know about. But however much there currently is, it's not enough. Every other room in the Rinth should have some hidden fun in it.

Related, more salvage areas, for the recovery of material components of use to spell casters. Since elementalists are screwed in the nu-Rinth, they'll have to take extreme risks or employ mundanes to go in and grab stuff.

Related, a source of poisons in the Rinth. There should be (more) mushrooms growing around the rinth, in various hidden crevices.

I like all of these ideas (though I wouldn't make the entire rinth magic free, just parts of it).

The one exception is the increased value for gear. A lot of the starter gear doesn't fit the impoverished aesthetic of the rinth. It's my opinion that commoners from south Allanak should be able to look poor but still hold themselves above the northsiders.

Like the kid who wears 3 year old sneakers from K-mart standing atop the kid who's shoes were stiched back together so many times it's hard to tell what brand they used to be.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 18, 2020, 03:51:54 PM
I like the ideas. Sources of poison in the sewers would be a welcome addition.

I think pushing magick towards the sewers along with adding reasons for people to go there would really improve the place.

Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Gentleboy on June 18, 2020, 04:13:11 PM
Like seriously though. Is the Rinth the only fucking place the sun doesn't shine? Why are we acting like the alleys are in the dark. It's odd and changes the entire atmosphere. No more creeping in shadows, but needing to blend in. Be cool if instead of hide, a group of npcs can appear or something. I dunno.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: valeria on June 22, 2020, 08:32:25 AM
Like seriously though. Is the Rinth the only fucking place the sun doesn't shine? Why are we acting like the alleys are in the dark.

It's in the room descriptions that the alleys are dark because of all the old, crumbling buildings leaning against each other over them.  There are some bright, open areas.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Riev on June 24, 2020, 10:00:25 AM
I like the ideas. Sources of poison in the sewers would be a welcome addition.

I think pushing magick towards the sewers along with adding reasons for people to go there would really improve the place.

I tried, recently. There aren't enough resources, playability-wise, to make the sewers a viable option. More likely to see 'rinth changes than sewers.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Dresan on June 24, 2020, 06:05:00 PM
I wasn't thinking that the sewers should become viable in terms of living in them, more like a nice but dangerous exploration area with reasons to go down there.

Assuming the other ideas were implemented mages would not be stifled there and you could find poisons there.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on June 25, 2020, 05:24:43 PM
I wasn't thinking that the sewers should become viable in terms of living in them, more like a nice but dangerous exploration area with reasons to go down there.

Assuming the other ideas were implemented mages would not be stifled there and you could find poisons there.

Honestly, I wish there were rogue gicker/ mugger NPC spawns down there instead of just rats.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: number13 on June 26, 2020, 06:51:31 PM
Honestly, I wish there were rogue gicker/ mugger NPC spawns down there instead of just rats.

There used to be *other* things that spawned in the sewers/tunnels. And I've heard that once upon a very long time ago there was an entire little village of sewer dwellers to the west of the well.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on June 26, 2020, 06:57:37 PM
Honestly, I wish there were rogue gicker/ mugger NPC spawns down there instead of just rats.

There used to be *other* things that spawned in the sewers/tunnels. And I've heard that once upon a very long time ago there was an entire little village of sewer dwellers to the west of the well.

The sewers are as empty as the red desert. Both are an absolute joke. People constantly talk about the gith of the Red, but the scariest thing out there is the possibility of having to spend any stretch of time resting your mount in the sun.

The sewers have the veneer of having been interesting at one time, with lots of talk about horrors and stuff, and extremely little substance.

-I tried, recently.-

Imagine going down there for any reason other than transportation or the rare byn/saber contract. Lol

Keep in mind it is TECHNICALLY realistic for there to be exactly nothing of interest in a sewer or big swathe of desert. Realism wins again, folks.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Hauwke on June 26, 2020, 08:09:23 PM
Honestly, I wish there were rogue gicker/ mugger NPC spawns down there instead of just rats.

There used to be *other* things that spawned in the sewers/tunnels. And I've heard that once upon a very long time ago there was an entire little village of sewer dwellers to the west of the well.

The sewers are as empty as the red desert. Both are an absolute joke. People constantly talk about the gith of the Red, but the scariest thing out there is the possibility of having to spend any stretch of time resting your mount in the sun.

The sewers have the veneer of having been interesting at one time, with lots of talk about horrors and stuff, and extremely little substance.

-I tried, recently.-

Imagine going down there for any reason other than transportation or the rare byn/saber contract. Lol

Keep in mind it is TECHNICALLY realistic for there to be exactly nothing of interest in a sewer or big swathe of desert. Realism wins again, folks.

It really depends on which side of the Red you are on, the trade route is relatively 'safe'.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: satine on July 14, 2020, 01:59:20 AM
There used to be some terrifying stuff down there, are all the hidden rooms down there gone as well?
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Cind on July 15, 2020, 06:38:45 AM
If someone removed the few sewer horrors that used to be down there, something is truly wrong with how we live our lives.

They were shiny, black, had spiky shells, and truly looked like eldritch horrors. Indeed, the wonders of the universe are vast. Nothing strikes fear into the heart, if you've ever been lucky enough to see one, like seeing the mdesc of something called 'a tentacled sewer horror,' or whatever they were named before.

What if tons of these things invaded the whole rinth, but were programmed not to attack pure-blood elves? I'm imagining interesting and fun solutions to our problems in the game that, honestly, you kind of know no one would survive.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Riev on July 15, 2020, 09:14:57 AM
There used to be some terrifying stuff down there, are all the hidden rooms down there gone as well?

I recently mapped out a bunch of sewer stuff, and outside of it being difficult to traverse for VERY little payoff, there are definitely still some hidden gems (haha) down there.

Unfortunatey, it takes like 8 stamina per room to move which makes travel a literal all-day event.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on July 15, 2020, 02:54:22 PM
Maybe I'm myopic, but the sewer is extremely underwhelming.

Weirdly the proof that the rinth is overlooked can be seen in the archeological items that some of the NPCs wear. There's a muslin shirt with a half a sentence mdesc and it weighs like 4 stone. The NPCs in the mantis have unusual stuff on that I've never seen before elsewhere.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: BOXCARS on July 31, 2020, 09:23:49 PM
Chiming in to say while I like the idea of paying off the muggers for protection, they exist somewhat to enforce a standard level of poverty among the rinthi. While there's certainly very simple ways to circumvent them, speaking as a newer player they're a very good crash course in knowing your place. A good rinthi knows the more you have the more you lose, hence spending a large amount of your profits on tattoos (which are quite difficult to take away) or spice (which probably won't last more than a smoke session or three).

A rags to riches story is all good and well, but the rinth is a bucket of crabs that pull each other under. A constant cycle of poverty from within and without to reinforce your life of survivalist crime. This is why we can't (and probably shouldn't) have nice things.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Incognito on August 17, 2020, 12:47:43 PM
I might add here (without going into IC details) that the gent in the rinth who requires a payment to see him, would do well to get some decent gear in his inventory, for sale.

Earlier he had all kinds of goodies (and this is too old, so IC info doesn't matter here) including fuses and explosives and picks etc.

Now he just has really crappy stuff that no one would be interested in buying, leave alone paying to peruse - making his existence quite redundant for all practical purposes in the game.

Perhaps some of the rinthi starting location gear could be made available to him, to sell?
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: roughneck on August 17, 2020, 01:04:43 PM
I might add here (without going into IC details) that the gent in the rinth who requires a payment to see him, would do well to get some decent gear in his inventory, for sale.

Earlier he had all kinds of goodies (and this is too old, so IC info doesn't matter here) including fuses and explosives and picks etc.

Now he just has really crappy stuff that no one would be interested in buying, leave alone paying to peruse - making his existence quite redundant for all practical purposes in the game.

Perhaps some of the rinthi starting location gear could be made available to him, to sell?


Turn it into rental space for whores, spice, or guarded storage or something.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Incognito on August 17, 2020, 01:28:21 PM
There used to be some terrifying stuff down there, are all the hidden rooms down there gone as well?

I recently mapped out a bunch of sewer stuff, and outside of it being difficult to traverse for VERY little payoff, there are definitely still some hidden gems (haha) down there.

Unfortunatey, it takes like 8 stamina per room to move which makes travel a literal all-day event.

If I'm not very much mistaken, the main purpose of the sewers (besides having resources/or lacking in them), is to be an arduous trek, for IC reasons which should be self-explanatory.

Yes there WAS a lot of stuff down there, at one point, and also had many plots that originated and ended there, but now that stuff is gone.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Riev on August 17, 2020, 03:04:52 PM
So what I'm getting from that is...

"The place is designed to be an arduous trek, and there used to be cool stuff that made the trek worth it but most of that stuff is gone now"

Cool.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: rohenne on August 18, 2020, 06:51:02 AM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Lotion on August 18, 2020, 08:20:37 AM
So what I'm getting from that is...

"The place is designed to be an arduous trek, and there used to be cool stuff that made the trek worth it but most of that stuff is gone now"

Cool.
Knowing that you can get from the desert to the rinth without seeing a templar seems like a very compelling reason
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on August 18, 2020, 10:07:01 AM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

In favor too, particularly if said squalid slums periodically do squalid slum things like have a few rooms catch on fire or have a floor collapse.

A rentable room with a hole in the ceiling that people can openly crawl through, that sort of thing!
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Fredd on August 18, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

In favor too, particularly if said squalid slums periodically do squalid slum things like have a few rooms catch on fire or have a floor collapse.

A rentable room with a hole in the ceiling that people can openly crawl through, that sort of thing!

This used to exist in commoners square. There was really shitty apartments that you could search out cracks leading to the roof. No one kept stuff in them.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: BOXCARS on August 18, 2020, 03:34:29 PM
A squalid slum apartment building would be a hilarious, fitting and interesting addition to the rinth.
I for one can see all the fun times that could be had there, and its half-abandoned, substandard conditions and terrible reputation.

That being said: there are a few concerns.

1. The rinth thrives in limitation. One of those primary limitations are homelessness and an unstable environment. There are clans to be involved with and ladders to climb to get a safe place in the rinth but a dedicated "home" building would detract from the many dens, squatted buildings and horrible corners of the rinth. These places are underused as they are. I know this apartment building would be dangerous and unreliable itself, but I think it would have a subconscious effect seeing it much the same way other apartment areas are.

2. Erecting and changing establishments anywhere, including the rinth, is up to player/staff interaction. Money, supplies, etc.
If nobody does the huge task themselves, there's the chance for a virtual building that has "always been there" being available but I wouldn't hold your breath.

3. Gankquest, quest for the gank. Apartment killing, we all know it (or soon will). The rinth is an easy place to PK as it is, and if the apartments are already unreliable at best then often it will boil down to "meet me at the span", but instead its the killing room where we gank noobies and take their starter large and sell their boots. While there's some good use possibly as an interrogation room, its not the only decent place that can happen.

I love the idea, I just don't know if it would work.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on August 18, 2020, 04:28:18 PM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

In favor too, particularly if said squalid slums periodically do squalid slum things like have a few rooms catch on fire or have a floor collapse.

A rentable room with a hole in the ceiling that people can openly crawl through, that sort of thing!

This used to exist in commoners square. There was really shitty apartments that you could search out cracks leading to the roof. No one kept stuff in them.

Those were the ones I was thinking of because I used to rent one!

Your counter point here is actually a counterpoint to BOXCARS's argument, thus reinforcing the one I'm making and what rohenne and others are musing about. These apartments really didn't offer security. They were just a resource for roleplay.

Also, I think I've just realized you literally cannot ERP in the 'rinth without risking being automatically stored and banned. LMAO. Might want to warn new players about that before they get banned (hopefully it's not too late but I bet $100 dollars it is because I like winning bets).
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Fredd on August 18, 2020, 04:42:23 PM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

In favor too, particularly if said squalid slums periodically do squalid slum things like have a few rooms catch on fire or have a floor collapse.

A rentable room with a hole in the ceiling that people can openly crawl through, that sort of thing!

This used to exist in commoners square. There was really shitty apartments that you could search out cracks leading to the roof. No one kept stuff in them.

Those were the ones I was thinking of because I used to rent one!

Your counter point here is actually a counterpoint to BOXCARS's argument, thus reinforcing the one I'm making and what rohenne and others are musing about. These apartments really didn't offer security. They were just a resource for roleplay.

Also, I think I've just realized you literally cannot ERP in the 'rinth without risking being automatically stored and banned. LMAO. Might want to warn new players about that before they get banned (hopefully it's not too late but I bet $100 dollars it is because I like winning bets).

I've had erp in the rinth. How are you banned for it?
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on August 18, 2020, 04:44:58 PM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

In favor too, particularly if said squalid slums periodically do squalid slum things like have a few rooms catch on fire or have a floor collapse.

A rentable room with a hole in the ceiling that people can openly crawl through, that sort of thing!

This used to exist in commoners square. There was really shitty apartments that you could search out cracks leading to the roof. No one kept stuff in them.

Those were the ones I was thinking of because I used to rent one!

Your counter point here is actually a counterpoint to BOXCARS's argument, thus reinforcing the one I'm making and what rohenne and others are musing about. These apartments really didn't offer security. They were just a resource for roleplay.

Also, I think I've just realized you literally cannot ERP in the 'rinth without risking being automatically stored and banned. LMAO. Might want to warn new players about that before they get banned (hopefully it's not too late but I bet $100 dollars it is because I like winning bets).

I've had erp in the rinth. How are you banned for it?

Having ERP in public places is a big naughty no-no. I got negative account notes for doing that once years ago, and I've heard of players being reported for it. Not sure about banning, but I think it happens. While I was mostly making light and cracking a joke, yes, there are rules against public ERP.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: Fredd on August 18, 2020, 04:48:31 PM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

In favor too, particularly if said squalid slums periodically do squalid slum things like have a few rooms catch on fire or have a floor collapse.

A rentable room with a hole in the ceiling that people can openly crawl through, that sort of thing!

This used to exist in commoners square. There was really shitty apartments that you could search out cracks leading to the roof. No one kept stuff in them.

Those were the ones I was thinking of because I used to rent one!

Your counter point here is actually a counterpoint to BOXCARS's argument, thus reinforcing the one I'm making and what rohenne and others are musing about. These apartments really didn't offer security. They were just a resource for roleplay.

Also, I think I've just realized you literally cannot ERP in the 'rinth without risking being automatically stored and banned. LMAO. Might want to warn new players about that before they get banned (hopefully it's not too late but I bet $100 dollars it is because I like winning bets).

I've had erp in the rinth. How are you banned for it?

Having ERP in public places is a big naughty no-no. I got negative account notes for doing that once years ago, and I've heard of players being reported for it. Not sure about banning, but I think it happens. While I was mostly making light and cracking a joke, yes, there are rules against public ERP.

There are places you can go and hide that aren't really public. But some shitty apartments wouldn't be bad, even if it was a Joy Hotel, when you are really renting for hours, kinda like the Gaj back room. It would be nice to see rival gangs pop up in the rinth, and apartments might help that, giving people outside The Guild a place to talk somewhat privately.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on August 18, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
i really really liked the idea of apartments in the rinth.

like surely some enterprising slum lord with some goons could take over an abandoned building and turn it into semi-secure housing for those well-off enough rinthis who could afford a shitty little room of their own to hide their stolen teapots or whatever have you.


it gets to a point where you basically have to join a clan and use their space or leave the rinth and go anywhere else because there is no way to secure even a modicum of privacy for any business you may want to do.

In favor too, particularly if said squalid slums periodically do squalid slum things like have a few rooms catch on fire or have a floor collapse.

A rentable room with a hole in the ceiling that people can openly crawl through, that sort of thing!

This used to exist in commoners square. There was really shitty apartments that you could search out cracks leading to the roof. No one kept stuff in them.

Those were the ones I was thinking of because I used to rent one!

Your counter point here is actually a counterpoint to BOXCARS's argument, thus reinforcing the one I'm making and what rohenne and others are musing about. These apartments really didn't offer security. They were just a resource for roleplay.

Also, I think I've just realized you literally cannot ERP in the 'rinth without risking being automatically stored and banned. LMAO. Might want to warn new players about that before they get banned (hopefully it's not too late but I bet $100 dollars it is because I like winning bets).

I've had erp in the rinth. How are you banned for it?

Having ERP in public places is a big naughty no-no. I got negative account notes for doing that once years ago, and I've heard of players being reported for it. Not sure about banning, but I think it happens. While I was mostly making light and cracking a joke, yes, there are rules against public ERP.

There are places you can go and hide that aren't really public. But some shitty apartments wouldn't be bad, even if it was a Joy Hotel, when you are really renting for hours, kinda like the Gaj back room. It would be nice to see rival gangs pop up in the rinth, and apartments might help that, giving people outside The Guild a place to talk somewhat privately.

Basically this. My favorite apartment in this game is the one in Tuluk that's basically a little dirt hole in the ground. I had so many grubby characters living out of that and while I couldn't keep things there overnight without something being stolen, it was still lovely for roleplay.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: BOXCARS on August 18, 2020, 11:24:22 PM
Okay I love the feedback rolling in, petty gangs based out of the apartments would be really cool ngl.

Nothing stop that from happening right now but I might be a little no-new-toys gang.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: triste on August 19, 2020, 10:07:42 AM
Okay I love the feedback rolling in, petty gangs based out of the apartments would be really cool ngl.

Nothing stop that from happening right now but I might be a little no-new-toys gang.

Word. If the 'rinth got any content -- like RPTs that were staff supported at least half as often as the southside got RPTs -- that would be like water to my crops.

I love the 'rinth forever because of its scrappy, player driven energy. In effect, that is part of it's ethos. The only part of the game I've made a permanent-ish mark on is the 'rinth, due to my character's involvement in an insane and completely player-driven scene.

The super-crappy-'rinth-grade apartment idea is a better idea for how staff can support the 'rinth than more RPTs or clan content because it fits the existing player-driven ethos of the 'rinth. It would support scenes like you and rohenne imagine.
Title: Re: The rinth needs love
Post by: BOXCARS on August 20, 2020, 02:33:09 PM
I would strongly recommend some kind of basic layout plan.
Rooms, secret exits, building location, maybe dummy up some descriptions.
Its a good proof of concept for a pitch and even if it never happens you have a cool piece of Arm apocrypha.