The rinth needs love

[Dresan]

While there have been improvements to the rinth lately playing a long term character out of the rinth can be painful lonely experience.

Instead of living in the rinth, and visiting southside slowly it become the other way around because the rinth lacks many of the feature that allow players just live their lives.

While lawlessness is a cool concept in theory it doesn't really work that well in practice.

I think there should be more hidden PC to act like soldiers on behalf of gangs. Gangs should enforce basic laws for those that have payed a monthly fee. Humans can pay for protection from westside gangs, elves can get protection eastside.(half-elves, dwarves and giants can pay either or both)  The area would be lawless for anyone hasn't paid or isn't the right race in the right area.

For those that have paid, they would get similar protection like with  other civilized locations, while people committing crimes against protected folk the would be wanted in that part of the rinth. Protected folk going after protected folk would be handled like cities.  Anyone performing magic would become wanted and attacked by gangs. Anyone would be able to find out if the person paid by waying an npc who can way you back and let you know if the name you've told them is protected or not.  Finally, protection feels for rinth locals would be reduced.

By providing these features to the rinth, people can live more normal lives in the rinth while steel keeping it a very unique location and feel.


Hostile NPC should stop attacking protected PCs.This will reduce the need to have to have stealth or just leave unconscious dead NPC everywhere in the rinth the moment you get one nice dagger. This current state of the rinth really promotes the  need for stealth in order to survive.

Lastly each side should have a set of apartments, which you can only rent if you are also protected.

[Dresan]

(This probably should go in general discussion feel free to move)

[triste]

While I like the lawlessness mostly as it is now, I agree with the idea of east-side west-side protection for one key reason: to kill the meme of rinth gangs falling apart due to "murderhobo" [term mildly offensive] infighting.

At least three people have talked about this meme. Everything is going well in the 'rinth, until one (1) west sider starts war with the east side, or vice versa, or some form of infighting occurs. Everyone then backstabs eachother in a flurry and suddenly the 'rinth goes from 12 active players to one active player because you can't backstab yourself.

I have been so irritated when I've seen one (1) twinklord get so full of himself that he kills EVERY npc in the 'rinth, or singlehandedly starts a war with a gang, because it kills plots and makes no sense. As someone who grew up in a ghetto and has lived in several ghettos in several states, I can tell you an average block will have at least four people who will jump in on a fight if it breaks out to back up their gang or their people. Usually it's closer to 20 people. This idea is great not only for protecting PCs and plots, but for being realistic.

[Pew Pew]

I have been so irritated when I've seen one (1) twinklord get so full of himself that he kills EVERY npc in the 'rinth, or singlehandedly starts a war with a gang, because it kills plots and makes no sense. As someone who grew up in a ghetto and has lived in several ghettos in several states, I can tell you an average block will have at least four people who will jump in on a fight if it breaks out to back up their gang or their people. Usually it's closer to 20 people. This idea is great not only for protecting PCs and plots, but for being realistic.

I can attest to the above, I have been on both sides of Triste's description.

[mansa]

I think any area of the game that would be a place that can be 'self contained' should have the following things:
a) a relatively safe space to store items/gear/treasure
This can be apartments, clan storage areas, warehouses

b) shopkeep NPCs that buy/sell items obtained/crafted from NPCs/foraging in the area.
This can be NPCs that buy rocks, food items, weapons, armors, containers, etc

c) a gathering place that is relatively safe for most players
This is usually a tavern or bar, but can also be a firepit or market.

d) two or three clans that can be joined to provide a focus (be that the clans' directives and purpose) to players who haven't thought that far about what to do.
This helps maintain a steady storytelling background by providing permanent political forces in an area

d-2) clan strength and enforcement via NPCs that will auto assist players within those clans with combat.
This can be something players can push towards - having their 'guard' npcs slowly expand and push out into different rooms and territories of the area.

e) "empty" areas in the game that can potentially be turned into home bases or estates for future player-created clams.
In the labyrinth, this is usually done by having empty and abandoned buildings.  These areas can be claimed by players and eventually turned into a home base.

f) more hobos to murderkill. A systematic approach on how to progress in your characters skills within the area.
Everybody wants to increase their coded skills and get better.  There should be a progression of how to get better at stealing, throw, slashing weapons, pick making, value, armor repair, and most skills that players have.

[Khorm]

what mansa said

i like elements of this. i think they're important points to consider when approaching zones of the game, but i also worry that making all of them a requirement would lead to a sort of weird homogeneity. if you take the same formulaic approach to areas you might end up with areas losing what makes them special or interesting and leaving them feeling somewhat flat.

[Dresan]

The way i picture it is a smaller area around tavern+apartment would be the most secure with largest number of NPCs (guards).  One on the far west, and one on the far east.

Paid protection (crim-code) would work like it does at night in redstorm/luirs. Unforgiving but slightly less effective the more you move away the secure locations and non-existent in the middle.

The central areas of the rinth would be neutral where the crazy murdering hobos roam.

This gives it its own unique flavor, providing some order while surrounded by all the lawlessness, and it allows for non-stealth characters to actually have a more enjoyable time and chance here, at least as good of a chance as any other location.

[triste]

The central areas of the rinth would be neutral where the crazy murdering hobos roam.

This gives it its own unique flavor, providing some order while surrounded by all the lawlessness, and it allows for non-stealth characters to actually have a more enjoyable time and chance here, at least as good of a chance as any other location.

Yeah this is great, seems possible to implement, and by definition represents a compromise between how things are now (the central zone) and the desire for a small degree of setting appropriate stability.

[Dresan]

Yeah. The aggressive checkpoints and aggressive npcs should be moved further north the central area as well. The less savory shops would still remain there too requiring stealth or combat skills.

It would still be an incredibly dangerous place full of dangerous people working for and against different kind of interests around Allanak but more akin to Redstorm in play-ability.

And both redstorm and luirs can be pretty damn fun with some people to play with as a change of pace from southside allanak all the time.

I actually feel if you were to set up rinth like this, you would get more small gangs/crews forming up all on their own. Probably more so then anywhere else due to the mixture of freedom+proximity to allanak.

[rinthrat]

 The NPCs aren't aggressive if you dress appropriately. If they attack you, that's on you.

[Dresan]

Lets be real. In terms of playability how many people don't get at least 1 nice item. Getting stuff is part of the game,and its a big part since you see how much people complain when they are losing  items as well as all the new items that come out regularly.   

Yeah most people are poor, but some people there have both coins and influence. The gang leaders and established PCs shouldn't be dressed in rags. They shouldn't need stealth to walk the streets, everyone would know not to fuck with them.

I am not saying aggressive NPC should exist just that they should exist in a smaller section of rinth that would be considered uncontested territory by the gangs. 

Tuluk doesn't need to come back, but Rinth needs to be brought up to the level of Luirs and Redstorm so we have another dense city environment that isn't allanak(southside).

[triste]

The NPCs aren't aggressive if you dress appropriately. If they attack you, that's on you.

This counterpoint doesn't address the full argument and has done an excellent job of distracting from the merits of OP's post without actually refuting the bulk of the arguments there.

This maybe refutes one of the points OP made. Maybe.

I know how to dress down to not get mugged. Let's pick just one of the other topics introduced though. We still need this to address some of the game, plot, and reality breaking crap that goes on now. I am annoyed when twinky-PCs are able to do stuff like kill multiple gang affiliated NPCs in a bar without any repercussions. After a twinky-PC does something like that, logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

It's also a headache for Staff when said twinky-PC [who is in effect exploiting broken mechanics OP is proposing we fix] ends up killing a more "permanent" NPC and Staff have to replace them. Really, it's silly, and if there was even just one tweak to code and mechanics that can fix this all-too-common and reality-defying scenario? I'm all for it.

[rinthrat]

The NPCs aren't aggressive if you dress appropriately. If they attack you, that's on you.

This counterpoint doesn't address the full argument and has done an excellent job of distracting from the merits of OP's post without actually refuting the bulk of the arguments there.

This maybe refutes one of the points OP made. Maybe.

I know how to dress down to not get mugged. Let's pick just one of the other topics introduced though. We still need this to address some of the game, plot, and reality breaking crap that goes on now. I am annoyed when twinky-PCs are able to do stuff like kill multiple gang affiliated NPCs in a bar without any repercussions. After a twinky-PC does something like that, logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

It's also a headache for Staff when said twinky-PC [who is in effect exploiting broken mechanics OP is proposing we fix] ends up killing a more "permanent" NPC and Staff have to replace them. Really, it's silly, and if there was even just one tweak to code and mechanics that can fix this all-too-common and reality-defying scenario? I'm all for it.

OP suggests a lot of things that are already in place, unfortunately. Which makes it very difficult to argue about them. You need to pick apart a bunch of assumptions that are made, but aren't explicitly stated.

"Oh, the game should have X." - "It already has X, so - what exactly needs to change? Are you not aware of this? Am I misunderstanding you somehow? What do you want to change/do differently?"

I did not want to type out pages of this. And suggesting that you need combat or stealth skills to get past the checkpoints suggests that "OP is not aware how things work" is likely.

logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

Every single clanned NPC that sees this does attack twinky-PC. It would be nice if there was a sort of crimeflag attached to doing this that would reflect other NPCs being notified via the way. It doesn't make much sense outside of very busy spots, though. And it's not what OP suggested. OP

Edit: And that scenario of someone coming into the tavern and slaughtering everyone? It's not common at all.

[Dresan]

I did not want to type out pages of this. And suggesting that you need combat or stealth skills to get past the checkpoints suggests that "OP is not aware how things work" is likely.

I was aware, but again as mentioned above, how practical is it in a game where crafting and acquiring stuff is noticeable part of its gameplay.

The majority of people use stealth or go across knocking out everything in sight.

Kudos to those people that are willing to play without ever acquiring anything worth more then few coins but it doesn't detract from any of the other points I've made.

[rinthrat]

Lets be real. In terms of playability how many people don't get at least 1 nice item. Getting stuff is part of the game,and its a big part since you see how much people complain when they are losing  items as well as all the new items that come out regularly.   

Yeah most people are poor, but some people there have both coins and influence. The gang leaders and established PCs shouldn't be dressed in rags. They shouldn't need stealth to walk the streets, everyone would know not to fuck with them.

I am not saying aggressive NPC should exist just that they should exist in a smaller section of rinth that would be considered uncontested territory by the gangs. 

Tuluk doesn't need to come back, but Rinth needs to be brought up to the level of Luirs and Redstorm so we have another dense city environment that isn't allanak(southside).

Everyone in the 'rinth is 'dressed in rags'. Including the gang leaders. It's the setting of the place. And it's pretty jarring when someone decides that they need to walk around in kryl armor, leaves behind a trail of dead NPCs, and acts like that is perfectly normal "oh they attacked me first".

Leave the nice items for Southside. In the meantime put them in a bag, your clan storage area, wherever. If you absolutely need to wear them everywhere, don't play in the one place in the gameworld where that isn't acceptable.

[Dresan]

I disagree with you. Its a place where the majority are poor and there are very little in the way of resources but there are also some very powerful well connected organization working there.

I doubt the are starving or lack in anything they want.

[Doublepalli]

Oh eastsiders definitely visit the Guilds tavern like nobodies business, because they can/no virtual enforcment of westsides territory fr fr

[rinthrat]

I disagree with you. Its a place where the majority are poor and there are very little in the way of resources but there are also some very powerful well connected organization working there.

I doubt the are starving or lack in anything they want.

Have you checked what these NPCs are wearing?

Oh eastsiders definitely visit the Guilds tavern like nobodies business, because they can/no virtual enforcment of westsides territory fr fr

The point wasn't about visiting, this was about twinky mc twink showing up and killing everyone inside.

[triste]

logically the entire guild and west side should want to kill the twinky-PC who did this [feel free to use east side in this analogy if you prefer]. However that is simply not the way it works, and that is simply not realistic.

Every single clanned NPC that sees this does attack twinky-PC. It would be nice if there was a sort of crimeflag attached to doing this that would reflect other NPCs being notified via the way. It doesn't make much sense outside of very busy spots, though. And it's not what OP suggested. OP

Edit: And that scenario of someone coming into the tavern and slaughtering everyone? It's not common at all.

Keepin' it vague, but I've seen it happen twice in an IRL year span, or 5 IG years. That's far too frequent enough. I know it's the 'rinth, but who the hell can run a business when your employees get killed or assaulted so frequently. More importantly, it sucks for all the player characters and plots destroyed.

Again, about four people have joked about this, and even made meme (visual assets) about it. Memes often exist to describe things that happen to the point of becoming a stereotype. Yes, it does happen. Often.

Oh eastsiders definitely visit the Guilds tavern like nobodies business, because they can/no virtual enforcment of westsides territory fr fr

You removed the author when you quoted him there, but oh, he knows.

[triste]

It would be nice if there was a sort of crimeflag attached to doing this that would reflect other NPCs being notified via the way.

On a constructive/positive note I do want to say I agree about this. Because it reiterates my/OP's point.

[mansa]

I'd like clarification on what's the problem with the labyrinth as it currently exists?


Is the problem that the Labyrinth is lacking for stuff to do, and that is forcing players out of the zone to get a more fulfilling playtime?
Is the problem that anybody can be killed by anybody and there's no NPC soldiers to keep the peace, so there isn't a 'safe space' for players to roleplay in and not worried about being killed?

[triste]

Second point, but revise soldiers to affiliated gang members. Because obviously there wouldn't be soldiers in the rinth. I'll also let OP speak for himself.

[Dresan]

I'd like clarification on what's the problem with the labyrinth as it currently exists?

Not to derail, but when are you going to play again?

[valeria]

I'd like clarification on what's the problem with the labyrinth as it currently exists?

Is the problem that the Labyrinth is lacking for stuff to do, and that is forcing players out of the zone to get a more fulfilling playtime?

I don't know about the OP, but this has been my problem every time I've tried to play in the Rinth, and I've been there with both humans and elves.  There are no places to forage for most things.  Even though the entire place is a rubble heap, you can't forage stones, you can't forage food in most locations even though picking up bugs and half-rotten kalans should be your go-to for getting by, you can't forage city-style trash 'artifacts.'  You're pretty much forced into the City alleys to forage, which is counter-intuitive.  There aren't any rubbish piles like there are in the City proper, even though they should be there by room description.  It has a very few generic NPCs, despite the dynamic NPCs that now are available and exist elsewhere in the world.  It only has rats, even though it should also have lizards, especially on the roofs like they now have in the City proper after the big roof revamp.

After the description revamp, I think most or all the room descriptions got really buffed up and thematic, and the Rinth got a lot more 3D.  I love that.  I just think the rest could use a little love and fleshing out.

Is the problem that anybody can be killed by anybody and there's no NPC soldiers to keep the peace, so there isn't a 'safe space' for players to roleplay in and not worried about being killed?

I wouldn't agree with this sentiment though.  If this is your problem with the Rinth, I think you should just play somewhere else.  It's lawless by design, unless you're associated with one of the gangs in your gang stronghold, which is as it should be imo.  Though I have an issue with the ability of someone to just stand outside and throw knives into a tavern with no repercussions, if that's still the state of things.

I do think there should be more NPCs, especially in a range of skill sets that you usually see represented by PCs, including some that assist each other or assist people in certain clans.  Every time I've played there, elf PCs will hunt down people hunting elf NPCs and human PCs will hunt down people hunting human NPCs.  It makes very little sense to have a few big bad muggers on the streets, with the rest of the population mostly weak beggars and children just waiting for someone to skill up backstab on them.

[triste]

Regarding people tossing knives into taverns, it is still an issue, including at the Gaj. A lot of my gripe on that frankly might be resolved with a guard or bouncer NPC out front, or an inner room with said guard. Awesome another idea that happens to conform with reality.

Regarding people killing kids, that is my other gripe in a previous comment and possibly one of OP's. I get that in a strife stricken area there are wolves and sheep but things are so severely imbalanced that usually the sheep just end up dead en masse. You say you disagree about gang member protection, but you are effectively agreeing with your more NPCs comments. Yes awesome, these people we agree we want are east side west side guards, gang protection, people with backstories and stuff.