Armageddon General Discussion Board

A few things lately regarding the steal command have bugged me. Just seems like there is complete disregard for RP in a lot of the occasions. I'm ALL for having sneaky types thieving, but some things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game for me because it just looks to me like the code is being abused. {EDIT} To anyone that does this with semotes and hemotes, forget about it. That's how it's meant to work. I still like to be mocked after I'm robbed though - that's more the point of this post than some whinge about how the steal command code itself has always worked in the 10+ years I've been around. It's always been easy to abuse, but I'm interested in the way we go about it IG.

I'm a huge fan of actually emoting when I'm hidden, even if it alerts people, because it creates a scene. Coming in, doing peek all, steal everything of worth, and leave - even if you are semoting and hemoting some magical feat of thievery - just seems to have the effect of everyone leaving taverns and reducing interaction overall between PCs. Having a thief on the loose that doesn't use their ultra stealth to just vanish and instead causes some chaos as well, is much more fun imo! Would love to see more of that. {EDIT} Anyone's character who this doesn't suit for good reasons, that's totally understandable too. I just want to promote a bit more chaos.

And sorry to anyone that is a legendary thief that knows their shit. I've had brilliant encounters of being robbed - love it - and absolutely none of them involved the steal command without at least SOME interaction.

When you try to kill someone, they can be 3 or more leagues away by the time you can recover enough to send another command.

When someone is shooting arrows at you, you can't take cover.

You can't shoot fireballs at distance.  You can instantly cover a league's worth of distance and charge at someone while they're shooting fireballs at you.

The crime code doesn't react to you hauling couches out of apartments.

You can craft multiple intricately-carved chests in a single morning of crafting.

A giant lizard only yields enough meat and shell to for about two days' worth of eating and two pieces of armor.

You can fail to skin said giant lizard and completely ruin the hide, meat, and shell, mysteriously.

You can kill said giant lizard BY YOURSELF with bone swords, and you don't even really have to be that good at fighting, in the grand scheme of things.

There are a lot of silly things in the game that we deal with.  Highlighting the "steal" command as being abused is literally just sour grapes at being a victim.  It takes a long time, a lot of patience, a lot of code knowledge, and a lot of luck to become a master pickpocket.  It's a lot easier to respect that and accept that you got robbed than it is to get incensed about it on the GDB.

People think serial PKers are the true terror of Armageddon, but it's really pickpockets.

Nope. I've got to strongly disagree. I've seen a very specific type of item being stolen across multiple people, which is making me think that there might be some elf thing going on.

If you see poor RP, report it. But unlike the vaguebooking doom and gloom commentary on the GDB about how apartments are worthless, I have not seen excessive stealing from apartments. Likewise I've heard of one poorly stolen item, and it created quite a bit of RP as a result. So ultimately that's a win and hopefully staff left a comment on the thief's account notes if necessary.

We have seen an explosion of city elf PCs, which according to GDB dogma, is a worthless race and contributes nothing to the game. Rather than vague book what could quite possibly be actions by them, I would just report the actions and let staff deal with it.

Finally: Get over having something stolen from you on occasion. I've certainly lost quite a bit recently (small items over an extended period of time). People dont bitch about unrealistic hunting, foraging or crafting. But the second a dagger or bit of coin gets stolen its the end of the world.

Finally I dont think emoting should be mandatory. It gives pickpockets two points of failure and given failing even once is a death sentence its simply too high of a risk with literally no benefit.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 16, 2019, 12:05:08 AM
When you try to kill someone, they can be 3 or more leagues away by the time you can recover enough to send another command.

When someone is shooting arrows at you, you can't take cover.

You can't shoot fireballs at distance.  You can instantly cover a league's worth of distance and charge at someone while they're shooting fireballs at you.

The crime code doesn't react to you hauling couches out of apartments.

You can craft multiple intricately-carved chests in a single morning of crafting.

A giant lizard only yields enough meat and shell to for about two days' worth of eating and two pieces of armor.

You can fail to skin said giant lizard and completely ruin the hide, meat, and shell, mysteriously.

You can kill said giant lizard BY YOURSELF with bone swords, and you don't even really have to be that good at fighting, in the grand scheme of things.

There are a lot of silly things in the game that we deal with.  Highlighting the "steal" command as being abused is literally just sour grapes at being a victim.  It takes a long time, a lot of patience, a lot of code knowledge, and a lot of luck to become a master pickpocket.  It's a lot easier to respect that and accept that you got robbed than it is to get incensed about it on the GDB.

rofl I agree there is lots of stuff we have to deal with. But that's not my point. The point is about making scenes fun. Equipment really isn't hard to obtain for certain characters so sour grapes is a bit much to presume. I'm specifically referring incidents that don't add much to the game because there just...wasn't any fun RP involved. The only effects are all the PCs leaving the taverns almost immediately. Think of muh tavern sitters!

I've seen this happen heaps in the past when I played, btw, as well as great scenes that involved RP, but it just seems if there's a lot of sneaky types or some real prominent ones it'd be cool to make things fun for others as well as yourself. Give an echo of faint laughter at the PC after you steal something. Anything! Give us sour grapes! I want sour grapes, damn it! That's why I'm here! I'm not a fan of OOC going, okay something stolen, we'll get another....Possible some people get angry about it, but I've never actually had something unique stolen from me so hard to tell how I'd react.

Quote from: John on May 16, 2019, 12:20:40 AM
Nope. I've got to strongly disagree. I've seen a very specific type of item being stolen across multiple people, which is making me think that there might be some elf thing going on.

If you see poor RP, report it. But unlike the vaguebooking doom and gloom commentary on the GDB about how apartments are worthless, I have not seen excessive stealing from apartments. Likewise I've heard of one poorly stolen item, and it created quite a bit of RP as a result. So ultimately that's a win and hopefully staff left a comment on the thief's account notes if necessary.

We have seen an explosion of city elf PCs, which according to GDB dogma, is a worthless race and contributes nothing to the game. Rather than vague book what could quite possibly be actions by them, I would just report the actions and let staff deal with it.

Finally: Get over having something stolen from you on occasion. I've certainly lost quite a bit recently (small items over an extended period of time). People dont bitch about unrealistic hunting, foraging or crafting. But the second a dagger or bit of coin gets stolen its the end of the world.

Finally I dont think emoting should be mandatory. It gives pickpockets two points of failure and given failing even once is a death sentence its simply too high of a risk with literally no benefit.

Not going to report it as they might have been doing excellent semotes/hemotes etc. But it's nice to throw flavour in as well...Personally, anyway.

Hmm, if everyone keeps presuming this is something I have against sneaky types I'll take the thread down. Was more intended to prompt discussion about thieving and how folks go about it.

There are certainly some occasions where I wouldn't throw out an emote due to the danger, but in the vast majority I would, particularly when you're an ultra ninja who vanish again anyway.

Quote from: Nile on May 16, 2019, 12:30:29 AMNot going to report it as they might have been doing excellent semotes/hemotes etc.

Then we might as well lock this thread because it seems to have no point. When you said

Quote from: Nile on May 15, 2019, 11:41:36 PMA few things lately regarding the steal command have bugged me. Just seems like there is complete disregard for RP in a lot of the occasions. I'm ALL for having sneaky types thieving, but some things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game for me because it just looks to me like the code is being abused.

What you apparently meant to say was

QuoteI have no idea how good or bad the theft RP has been. I'm not going to make any comments or aspersions against the current people playing thieves because I have no information on this subject.

I don't see the point of having a thread about something your claiming to have no direct knowledge on.

Quote from: John on May 16, 2019, 12:40:07 AM

Quote from: Nile on May 16, 2019, 12:30:29 AMNot going to report it as they might have been doing excellent semotes/hemotes etc.

Then we might as well lock this thread because it seems to have no point. When you said

Quote from: Nile on May 15, 2019, 11:41:36 PMA few things lately regarding the steal command have bugged me. Just seems like there is complete disregard for RP in a lot of the occasions. I'm ALL for having sneaky types thieving, but some things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game for me because it just looks to me like the code is being abused.

What you apparently meant to say was

QuoteI have no idea how good or bad the theft RP has been. I'm not going to make any comments or aspersions against the current people playing thieves because I have no information on this subject.

I don't see the point of having a thread about something your claiming to have no direct knowledge on.

If you read past the first line you'll note the emphasis I placed on RP. Should I edit the first line?

EDIT: Not for every incident can I comment. There's certainly some I could send reports about. But all of these are old now.

Quote from: Nile on May 16, 2019, 12:35:51 AM
Hmm, if everyone keeps presuming this is something I have against sneaky types I'll take the thread down. Was more intended to prompt discussion about thieving and how folks go about it.

There are certainly some occasions where I wouldn't throw out an emote due to the danger, but in the vast majority I would, particularly when you're an ultra ninja who vanish again anyway.

You appeared to have a problem with some thieves. I think such issues are better dealt with via character complaints then vaguebooking on the forum. Because then your not assuming your limited perspective is the correct perspective. Also when I said "get over having something stolen" I wasn't strictly speaking about you directly but the playerbase at large (or at least those who come to the GDB and complain about it or who react so badly as to avoid going to public venues because "oh noes! I might get my mount ticket stolen").

QuoteIf you read past the first line you'll note the emphasis I placed on RP. Should I edit the first line?

No. If you think there's poor RP on something you have limited knowledge of, don't vaguebook on the GDB, put in a complaint to staff.

Quote from: John on May 16, 2019, 12:44:27 AM

Quote from: Nile on May 16, 2019, 12:35:51 AM
Hmm, if everyone keeps presuming this is something I have against sneaky types I'll take the thread down. Was more intended to prompt discussion about thieving and how folks go about it.

There are certainly some occasions where I wouldn't throw out an emote due to the danger, but in the vast majority I would, particularly when you're an ultra ninja who vanish again anyway.

You appeared to have a problem with some thieves. I think such issues are better dealt with via character complaints then vaguebooking on the forum. Because then your not assuming your limited perspective is the correct perspective. Also when I said "get over having something stolen" I wasn't strictly speaking about you directly but the playerbase at large (or at least those who come to the GDB and complain about it or who react so badly as to avoid going to public venues because "oh noes! I might get my mount ticket stolen").

QuoteIf you read past the first line you'll note the emphasis I placed on RP. Should I edit the first line?

No. If you think there's poor RP on something you have limited knowledge of, don't vaguebook on the GDB, put in a complaint to staff.

Vaguebook? I think it seems pretty pointed. I'm encouraging people directly to try and make scenes fun for all as much as they can. If you dislike this perspective, great, tell me yours!

The problem with stealing isn't really that you get stolen from, it's the absolutely no messaging that happens when you're stolen from that I think sucks.

So say you're stealing my fancy knife from my pack, you unlatch my backpack successfully, no message to me.  You steal the knife, no message, you are a pro so you relatch my backpack, slip knife belt, no message, sneak away, no message.

I think it's the plain invisibility of it that I find jarring.

I've always thought there should be some type of emote, like, "You felt someones hands in your pocket but couldn't catch them."

Now I know I have been stolen from, I can close off my packs, and shit or retreat to a safer area.

On a newbie character I had, I had literally over 500 coins stolen off me outta my pack on day one by some master thief, no message, reviewed logs, saw I put the coins back in my pack, closed my pack, then fast forward an hour and I go to get my coins and they are gone.  So barring some type of crazy bug, someone cleaned out my newb of all his coins.

So when it gets crazy or overpowered like that, I have a problem with it.  Sure, do people not know they are being pickpocketed in life, probably not.  But if you emptied my whole damn backpack of goods, I'd notice the weight difference or something.

As I said in that other thread, magickers don't really need karma checks, thieves do.

Quote from: Nile on May 16, 2019, 12:47:39 AMVaguebook? I think it seems pretty pointed. I'm encouraging people directly to try and make scenes fun for all as much as they can. If you dislike this perspective, great, tell me yours!

That it's not my job to assume people have had "complete disregard for RP" or that "things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game", nor do I assume that "code is being abused". If I think any of those things are actually true, I'd report it to staff and let them investigate.

That's my perspective. And trying to shame SOME OF the current crop of players playing a particular role seems like a pretty shitty thing to do to be honest.

Quote from: Cerelum on May 16, 2019, 12:53:44 AM
The problem with stealing isn't really that you get stolen from, it's the absolutely no messaging that happens when you're stolen from that I think sucks.

So say you're stealing my fancy knife from my pack, you unlatch my backpack successfully, no message to me.  You steal the knife, no message, you are a pro so you relatch my backpack, slip knife belt, no message, sneak away, no message.

I think it's the plain invisibility of it that I find jarring.

I've always thought there should be some type of emote, like, "You felt someones hands in your pocket but couldn't catch them."

Now I know I have been stolen from, I can close off my packs, and shit or retreat to a safer area.

On a newbie character I had, I had literally over 500 coins stolen off me outta my pack on day one by some master thief, no message, reviewed logs, saw I put the coins back in my pack, closed my pack, then fast forward an hour and I go to get my coins and they are gone.  So barring some type of crazy bug, someone cleaned out my newb of all his coins.

So when it gets crazy or overpowered like that, I have a problem with it.  Sure, do people not know they are being pickpocketed in life, probably not.  But if you emptied my whole damn backpack of goods, I'd notice the weight difference or something.

As I said in that other thread, magickers don't really need karma checks, thieves do.

Not sure how it could be implemented but something along those lines would solve any issues I have. Something subtle, perhaps depending on the location/weight/etc, that could be interpreted as a shift in weight or a light touch or nothing at all, depending on how the character wants to RP it.

And, John, I'm not trying to shame anyone. There's been some things IG that I've found just bizarre, yep, and perhaps should have been reported. I will certainly do so in the future and appreciate your advice, which I think is intended kindly. But I didn't report them at the time because I tend to give the benefit of the doubt as I've been there. Probably like 70% of my characters are some sort of sneak/thief. I've committed the exact deed I'm bitching about in years long past and if you or others feel shamed, even after I've explicitly noted folks might be doing exceptional RP with semotes and hemotes because it's impossible to know with how the code works, I apologise. It wasn't my intention to anger or shame anyone.

Clearly, this is an extremely touchy topic though, which makes me think this is a thread worth keeping open for a bit.

If you're hidden and you emote something a character shouldn't realistically see you're encouraging metagame. Doesn't seem like good RP.

I think the overlying point here is be a responsible player and don't steal 500 coins in one scene from a backpack.  Or steal couches or other furniture that's massive. Otherwise, those things aside, I think its balanced as is.

The mount ticket thiefs just hanging out in the stables are the worst, but I don't think there's anyway to really fix steal fairlyother than just hope the PC makes the right call.

I've had people steal from my characters, while my characters were in combat. Actively moving around trying to kill something. If that isn't bad RP, I don't know what is. I think I've even had it done to me while climbing in a set of climb rooms.

To the thief that does this sort of thing: You know who you are. You know who you've done it to. Hopefully staff notice you doing it.

Staff need to be sent a log or something whenever a player uses the steal command on another conscious character. Or hell, even an unconscious one. If someone isn't RPing stripping me while I'm knocked out while spam-stealing, I'd like to see someone punished for failure to roleplay. If someone doesn't do at least a single hidden emote or silent emote of slipping through the crowds, hunting for a mark before then spam-stealing from someone? That too to an extent is failure to roleplay and should be punished.

Quote from: Cabooze on May 16, 2019, 04:25:22 PM
I've had people steal from my characters, while my characters were in combat. Actively moving around trying to kill something. If that isn't bad RP, I don't know what is. I think I've even had it done to me while climbing in a set of climb rooms.

To the thief that does this sort of thing: You know who you are. You know who you've done it to. Hopefully staff notice you doing it.

Staff need to be sent a log or something whenever a player uses the steal command on another conscious character. Or hell, even an unconscious one. If someone isn't RPing stripping me while I'm knocked out while spam-stealing, I'd like to see someone punished for failure to roleplay. If someone doesn't do at least a single hidden emote or silent emote of slipping through the crowds, hunting for a mark before then spam-stealing from someone? That too to an extent is failure to roleplay and should be punished.

Why put a bunch of rules on stealing, but not for other PvP interactions?  Because you're being excessively butt-hurt about it.  The point is that there are NUMEROUS ways players are shitty, but this one gets brought up CONSTANTLY, because people just cannot let it go.  For some reason, being stolen from assaults the ego so intensely that all reason flies out the window.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 16, 2019, 04:54:58 PM
Why put a bunch of rules on stealing, but not for other PvP interactions?  Because you're being excessively butt-hurt about it.  The point is that there are NUMEROUS ways players are shitty, but this one gets brought up CONSTANTLY, because people just cannot let it go.  For some reason, being stolen from assaults the ego so intensely that all reason flies out the window.

I'm advocating for roleplay and roleplay enforcement. It applies to if my character just got backstabbed or something, on the brink of death, and the other player has an opportunity to flesh out a death scene, for example. Most I've noticed, don't. Not even a small emote. They prefer to get the emotes done after you're already dead or something and they have all your loot. 

Quote from: Synthesis on May 16, 2019, 04:54:58 PM

Quote from: Cabooze on May 16, 2019, 04:25:22 PM
I've had people steal from my characters, while my characters were in combat. Actively moving around trying to kill something. If that isn't bad RP, I don't know what is. I think I've even had it done to me while climbing in a set of climb rooms.

To the thief that does this sort of thing: You know who you are. You know who you've done it to. Hopefully staff notice you doing it.

Staff need to be sent a log or something whenever a player uses the steal command on another conscious character. Or hell, even an unconscious one. If someone isn't RPing stripping me while I'm knocked out while spam-stealing, I'd like to see someone punished for failure to roleplay. If someone doesn't do at least a single hidden emote or silent emote of slipping through the crowds, hunting for a mark before then spam-stealing from someone? That too to an extent is failure to roleplay and should be punished.

Why put a bunch of rules on stealing, but not for other PvP interactions?  Because you're being excessively butt-hurt about it.  The point is that there are NUMEROUS ways players are shitty, but this one gets brought up CONSTANTLY, because people just cannot let it go.  For some reason, being stolen from assaults the ego so intensely that all reason flies out the window.

Seemed to me that Cabooze was emphasising the RP. Who actually gets 'butt hurt' about losing some gear on an online game anyone with a clue will be able to get back with ease? Unique items, sure that's different, but none of the cases mentioned so far have even pertained to anything of that nature. Besides, there are very easy ways to prevent thievery too, which can be just as dodgy. It would be very easy for everything of any value to suddenly become unstealable if characters wanted to.

I just don't like doing these things IG because I enjoy it when the game develops little plots, which the type of RP I'm referring to at least might try to create (I can think of sooooo many ways I could do this without getting arrested or seen unless by some crazy 0 lag bot and several other conditions met), and want to encourage this sort of mayhem. Crazy ninja theft doesn't really drive plotlines, RP or anything except one player's personal satisfaction, which I get, but trust me it's way more fun, and will actually get people riled up, if you create even the tiniest of scenes for the makings of a plot.

EDIT: I mean, one of the ironies here is that I'm complaining how this theft DOESN'T irritate me. It' just an OOC okay lets get another. What irritates me personally a lot more is being taunted IG. Otherwise who are you angry at? Nobody. You just shrug it off like a vNPC theft because it may as well have been and replace the item. No pain whatsoever.

Public service announcement, put things inside a container in your pack that's large, like coins inside a large wooden box or large bag with other things essentially only having one object in your pack, and close the internal container.

Provided you keep enough weight of items in the bag or container it will be unstealable from while in your main backpack.

You can't open things inside of things with unlatch.

Russian doll your inventory!

Also almost everyone carries large containers with them like large bags or an extra backpack.  Never keep anything you wanna keep in them because peek will show them while they are unopened.

Then it's a steal bonanza.

Quote from: Cerelum on May 16, 2019, 08:09:57 PM
Public service announcement, put things inside a container in your pack that's large, like coins inside a large wooden box or large bag with other things essentially only having one object in your pack, and close the internal container.

Provided you keep enough weight of items in the bag or container it will be unstealable from while in your main backpack.

You can't open things inside of things with unlatch.

haha bingo.

...aaaaand that's why your mount ticket gets yoinked as soon as you > rent beetle.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 16, 2019, 08:43:52 PM
...aaaaand that's why your mount ticket gets yoinked as soon as you > rent beetle.

Quotehelp alias

Alias                                                               (Control)

   This command allows you to create mnemonics which will be expanded into
full commands when typed. Arguments following the mnemonic will be inserted
into the command, but replaceable parameters and substitutions are not
implemented. You can have a maximum of 100 aliases. Using the alias command
by itself will list your current aliases.

   To delete an alias, use the alias command with the name of the alias
you wish to delete, as in "alias spoo".

Syntax:
   alias <mnemonic> <text>
alias

Example:
   > alias ds draw sword   - Creates ds alias and assigns 'draw sword' to it
> alias ds              - Deletes the ds alias
> alias fb cast 'wek un suk-krath divan hekro'
> fb gith
(This will have the same effect as typing "cast 'wek un suk-krath divan

hekro' gith", except that from now on, you will just need to type "fb
<target>" instead of the whole spell.)

So simply create the following alias.

Alias ht hold ticket

ensure you're secondary hand is free before you rent your beetle and type Rent beetle and immediately type ht right after

They have about a second to sneak in their steal command before you're holding the ticket in your hand and it's unstealable.  If they time the delay on steal that well, then bless them they deserve the ticket.

I feel like Cerelum plays all the PCs I mercilessly grief with my pickpockets, because he's the one doing dumb shit when he thinks nobody is looking.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ClutteredWastefulCuscus-size_restricted.gif)

Quote from: Synthesis on May 16, 2019, 11:16:09 PM
I feel like Cerelum plays all the PCs I mercilessly grief with my pickpockets, because he's the one doing dumb shit when he thinks nobody is looking.

Possible, though every character I play normally has master scan and listen.  My current is the one rare one that does not.

This is just the Wheel of Hate, turning.

• Elves
• Half-elves
• Magickers
• Half-giant smarts
• Thieves
• Templars' Murderous Power
• Tavern sitters/Social roles
• Raiders
• Merchant House perks
• Nobility RP
• Indy wealth/ease
• Erotic RP

GDB personas pick one that they aren't doing right now with their own PC, beat on it mercilessly until they feel morally superior, then spin the Wheel again in a few weeks.  Repeat.

Quote from: Cerelum on May 16, 2019, 10:35:12 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 16, 2019, 08:43:52 PM
...aaaaand that's why your mount ticket gets yoinked as soon as you > rent beetle.

Quotehelp alias

Alias                                                               (Control)

   This command allows you to create mnemonics which will be expanded into
full commands when typed. Arguments following the mnemonic will be inserted
into the command, but replaceable parameters and substitutions are not
implemented. You can have a maximum of 100 aliases. Using the alias command
by itself will list your current aliases.

   To delete an alias, use the alias command with the name of the alias
you wish to delete, as in "alias spoo".

Syntax:
   alias <mnemonic> <text>
alias

Example:
   > alias ds draw sword   - Creates ds alias and assigns 'draw sword' to it
> alias ds              - Deletes the ds alias
> alias fb cast 'wek un suk-krath divan hekro'
> fb gith
(This will have the same effect as typing "cast 'wek un suk-krath divan

hekro' gith", except that from now on, you will just need to type "fb
<target>" instead of the whole spell.)

So simply create the following alias.

Alias ht hold ticket

ensure you're secondary hand is free before you rent your beetle and type Rent beetle and immediately type ht right after

They have about a second to sneak in their steal command before you're holding the ticket in your hand and it's unstealable.  If they time the delay on steal that well, then bless them they deserve the ticket.

And this us why the GDB cant have discussions on pickpockets and burglars. The GDB does do some good for the game, but it is largely filled stupid toxic crap like this.

Yo dawg, if I see you stashing your 0-stone valuables inside a pouch inside a bag inside a pack...

> mercy off

Actually, not sure if it's always been this way, but you can't hold a ticket (anymore)?

Sucks, well you can always alias putting shit away inside things very quickly and closing your pack.

Reminder that just because someone isn't directly involved in a plot or roleplay situation, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You being stolen from can trickle in to interactions in the criminal underbelly, the fact that your character has realistic ignorance of these events does not stop this.

Hey.

I have very little to complain about pick-pockets. I rarely notice when I have been stolen from, because most people are smart enough to steal something you'd easily miss. (I mean my character, my OCD knows I have fifteen feathers in my bag.)

The only real lesson I would want to give to pick-pockets is to perhaps just use common sense. If a noble is sitting down reading a book, and for some reason might not be codedly using "hold" for whatever reason, I don't know, they're holding a candle to illuminate the pages or whatever. And you pickpocket that book, while they're reading it. That's some stupid shit.

Same with all the scenes of Bynners and Soldiers I have seen who enter a place, take their helmet off "emote puts helmet under arm and salutes" and before they can think to "hold" the helmet, someone yanked it. Obviously they are saluting, drawing massive attention to themselves.

There are a myriad of those sort of instances that I feel are annoying. But if you see a grebber hauling in a bag and you yoink a scrab steak out of his bag while he wanders over to the roasting pits. Or a trader hauling a bag of shiny rings he just made. Etc. That is great, that is what it was intended for I think?

This is again the discussion of how much fun does stealing bring to the game. Same with PKing. You take something, you give something back. Hopefully your character provides fun for others because of their stealing. And not just to 'grief' people by yanking mount tickets for giggles. (Unless of course, that was what the pickpocket was hired to do. Thus creating fun for some other character as well.)

With great power comes responsibility. And I feel playing a criminal is very hard in that regard! Especially if you are a highly skilled one.

I never felt that pick-pocket was for stealing Lord Samos' bronze sword off his belt, but that is just me.

Some random thievery is needed to create the atmosphere of rampant crime. As it should be in Zalanthas. Mission achieved. If you genuinely want to go through all that hassle that Cerelum described to guarantee your personal invulnerability, it's your choice. But I can say that when I play thieves, I occasionally do some harmless thievery that's outside of plotwork. But when I see someone go to the extremes Cerelum describes, I'll admit, I'd go an extra mile as well.

Unfortunately, it is an allure of the game. Being stolen from. The stealth and the silent/hidden emotes. In truth, what should be changed is not the code, but the players and their expectations. Needless to say, stealing 500 off of newly created character is lame. And it is sad that this happens. I would've filed a player complaint about it. But with those people, we also have people who loot a corpse of a newbie, pick up the noobie coins, and then buy a piece of bone for 900 coins, just to get rid of it. Just because it's lame to use noob coins. Some players are awesome. Alas, some are not. But it is overall, fringe cases. Very fringe.

I honestly like the way thievery works. It's powerful and much like many other aspects in the game, can be game breaking if abused. So dont abuse it. Dont cheese things, and make the game better with your actions, not worse.

But if you fall victim to thievery. Dont take it as a personal insult. It is literally a way for a thief to interact with you in a way that the role and situation allows. If it really injured you so much, play with it. What can you do to regain the lost item, or prevent from being stolen from again. 'That' creates content and interactivity to the game. Seeing the emote of how you got stolen from is genuinely irrelevant.

This guy is being bashed for asking for more RP...something is wrong with that. Some of you have gotten way too meta.

Thieves should roleplay their theft.

Even if you don't think they must emote their thieving actions specifically, it's a requirement of playing Armageddon to roleplay. Arm's emotes/thinks/feels and modes of communication make up our roleplaying tools so whether before, during or after there should be roleplaying done using those tools. You can bet that staff do take notice if someone regularly isn't doing their due diligence and steals abusively. This really goes for all sorts of abuse and poor play.

Please do use the request tool if you believe that abuse is going on, this way it can be investigated by staff and addressed if it's found to be so.

It's actually valid to steal without emotes. I emote when I fail steal checks. Just don't spam peek.

The superior theft strategy is bashing with an etwo'd mace while they have those juicy unarmed defense penalties. If they walk around armed they look goofy so nobody will take their plots seriously. Either way you win.

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on May 19, 2019, 08:52:34 AM
This guy is being bashed for asking for more RP...something is wrong with that. Some of you have gotten way too meta.

Not really.

I'm in disagreement because it seems like he's asking for thieves to be held to a higher standard than everyone else.  See:  my long list of stupid shit that we also put up with.

For example:  everyone is like, "haha, go on X-D with your bad self" when he says something like "I'll give you one chance to play fair when I raid you, but after that, it's straight to the code,"  but when a pickpocket player says "if you hide your shit like a bitch, I'm going to grief you" it's META.

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on May 19, 2019, 08:52:34 AM
This guy is being bashed for asking for more RP...something is wrong with that. Some of you have gotten way too meta.

If you actually read my reaction to his post, you'll see what I was responding to. Also: It's rare that I agree with Synthesis. But the post directly above mine? I actually agree with that.

I do feel this game has gotten too soft. I see people making a concerted effort to push back on that and I welcome their efforts.

Just as thieves are not trusted to RP appropriately (apparently), I don't trust the masses to appropriately RP and react(or specifically not react) to me flavoring emotes with me attempting to steal from people. So I, as I always have, will continue to use thinks/feels and the like while I do things assuming my character is hidden and not use actions the code forces me out of a hidden state when I'm trying to ambush someone or steal from them.

If something is missing, follow up in game. Talk to AOD or Guild and have people try to locate the item. Try to get it back through ransom and then attempt revenge. If your character wouldn't do those things, then don't. If you think you've been unrealistically stolen from, submit a player complaint and allow the staff to weigh in and appropriately correct behavior if necessary. But requesting someone who cannot be seen, as it being hidden or invisible is intended, act in a way that reveals them to you and you get to react is absurd. If you're not asking that people emote out things, what roleplay specifically are you looking for from someone your character cannot observe?

Quote from: John on May 20, 2019, 07:39:42 AM
I do feel this game has gotten too soft. I see people making a concerted effort to push back on that and I welcome their efforts.

This.

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on May 19, 2019, 08:52:34 AM
This guy is being bashed for asking for more RP...something is wrong with that. Some of you have gotten way too meta.

Heh, I've explained my position explicitly a few times and even apologised and edited my post to qualify and negate the silly assumptions people seem to make with regards to any sort of commentary regarding theft RP; that being, 'you're just mad'. This is such a poor argument it hardly warrants a response. I've played the game for 15 years. Acquiring items isn't an issue, it's just that it doesn't feel like interaction in a RP environment with actual players. You just assume some vNPC stole it, which is also fair enough, but I personally find it quite boring. If that's your thing. Go for it. I'll stick to playing the game in my own style. For me it's a plot over a line of code on a make believe character any day.

Just to clarify, do you wish for subtle emotes during most thievery while hidden, or unhidden emotes?

In the first case, it would add a sprinkle of flavor perhaps but it wont really drive plots right, since they'd still be a hidden "someone" in the emotes, whan can you do that you didn't before, emote out how pissed you are earlier instead of later? it would cut down how much theft can occur though.

Or do you wish for unhidden emotes, wherein your thief reveals himself fully? (Reveals himself with the command that is they might still RP thinking they're being subtley smooth)

Only the last case would drive plots, potentially.

Someone with a high enough watch skill might catch hemotes, as far as I know. If you are a thief sitting next to someone, you can easily emote something about being near, and hemote your actions - but GASP you run the risk of people seeing you.

You can already detect the theft with watch.

If you didn't see it, you didn't fucking see it.

Fuck giving people extra chances to see it.

End of story.

Quote from: PriestlySiren on May 23, 2019, 03:27:46 AM
Someone with a high enough watch skill might catch hemotes, as far as I know. If you are a thief sitting next to someone, you can easily emote something about being near, and hemote your actions - but GASP you run the risk of people seeing you.

Steal let's you add in a description of how  your stealing. Doing any additional emotes is simply asking to give people extra chances to detect a theft which isnt really realistic.

Stealth is just the next thing on the Hate-Cycle, but its been there for years.

Even if someone gloriously semotes the scene, thinks, has been planning it for weeks, the simple fact is, it comes down to the roll they get on their attempt to steal. If they succeed, you will never know about it.

Everything else is just fluff. Extra chances to catch them. Asking them to 'flaunt' their theft, so you know who to target. Some people may do that, most people are not going to show themselves off as a thief. Thievery is ILLEGAL, because this isn't Tuluk anymore. Someone knows you're a thief and you'll get backstabbed just because Inventory Elementalists are more feared than defilers.

I... just can't get behind "give victims more chances" in this situation. There are already super-meta ways to avoid being stolen from, and thieves can't just steal the broadsword off your back.

Quote from: Riev on May 23, 2019, 10:04:53 AM
Someone knows you're a thief and you'll get backstabbed just because Inventory Elementalists are more feared than defilers.

Quiet a eery thought.

Although what I'd rather have is them both getting instakilled.

Quote from: Riev on May 23, 2019, 10:04:53 AM
Stealth is just the next thing on the Hate-Cycle, but its been there for years.

Even if someone gloriously semotes the scene, thinks, has been planning it for weeks, the simple fact is, it comes down to the roll they get on their attempt to steal. If they succeed, you will never know about it.

Everything else is just fluff. Extra chances to catch them. Asking them to 'flaunt' their theft, so you know who to target. Some people may do that, most people are not going to show themselves off as a thief. Thievery is ILLEGAL, because this isn't Tuluk anymore. Someone knows you're a thief and you'll get backstabbed just because Inventory Elementalists are more feared than defilers.

I... just can't get behind "give victims more chances" in this situation. There are already super-meta ways to avoid being stolen from, and thieves can't just steal the broadsword off your back.

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on May 19, 2019, 08:52:34 AM
This guy is being bashed for asking for more RP...something is wrong with that. Some of you have gotten way too meta.

This is disingenuous.  Emotes are not Rp.  Actions are Rp.  A thief who takes a knife off your belt and sells it is doing what thieves do in real life.  They are playing the role of a thief.  Adding in extra emotes so that you get an extra chance to spot them with your carefully skill-max'd scan is not 'better rp', it's more flowery Rp.  It's a stylistic choice, and neither is wrong. 

As someone else pointed out, there are usually a bunch of trickled down interactions that happen after a theft that the victim doesn't see.  That doesn't mean that the thief is 'bad'.  This whole thread is just people posting sour grapes and Cerellum pushing crazy code-heavy anti-rp schemes to become invincible in this MUD that prides itself on its gritty permadeath environment.

Anecdote:

I was once hired to steal the spice pipe of a Kuraci Agent. It was purportedly a very favored pipe. I had to wait for him to not only be online, but for our times online to mesh. It took weeks of planning, finding out where he'd be, deciding if I set up a meeting and possibly expose myself, or have someone else set up a meeting for something innocuous.

Weeks of planning. Finally managed to find him, sneak around, unlatch his spice pouch, and steal the pipe.
I think my payment was like... 1000 coins or something extravagant (but not so much considering the time it took).
In the end, the Kuraci likely saw and experience nothing but the missing pipe.

I had later heard that the client who was requesting the theft, pointedly sparked up in front of the Agent with his own spice pipe (though it wasn't unique by any means, so not sure how that went).
You got stolen from. Maybe it was coins, maybe it was a mount ticket, maybe it was your pair of sunslits. Someone stole them for a reason, even if it was to sell your big inix to the slaughterhouse for a few hundred coins, or to sell it to some wary traveler who will pay top-coin for it.

Being stolen from sucks. The code is not designed to give the victim a million chances. It is, in no way, up to the thief to provide you with visible regular emotes so you see "someone pads around the tavern, making little noise" and give you the opportunity to back up against a wall, scan, and cry foul when they succeed.

Emoting /= RP

Playing your PC appropriately = RP, and there are various ways of doing this.

As Synthesis and PriestlySiren posit, Hemotes trigger a possibility of 'watch' catching them, and watch/scan in general tick a possibility of unstealthing someone AFAIK. Stealth isn't 100% perfect (though Miscreants are nigh invisible to most other classes besides Miscreant it seems). But considering how the AoD reacts to thieves, especially thieves that are stealing from people of some importance, it seems illogical that a thief would try to get caught. This is more for the benefit of Players other than the thief, than the thief PC or the player of the Thief.

There is nuance here, just as there is for PKs. If you think a PC is flagrantly disregarding RP for the sake of stealing constantly, or stealing in an unrealistic fashion, report them to Staff and let them look into it. If you think someone is PKing for the sake of griefing without RP to back it up, report them to Staff and let them look into it. But 9/10 times, I imagine there is RP that you just can't see from your PC's perspective.

The game is difficult enough as it is -- I think it is operating from a place of paranoia and self-preservation to assume that thieves are just a bunch of Soddy griefers. Are there a couple who operate in that fashion? Likely. Do they last long? Not likely, from my experience. The thieves that work the best are never seen, and never bragged about, or brag about themselves. You just look down one day and realize your (X) is missing and wonder if you misplaced it somewhere.

Anecdote:

Once, someone stole a precious thing that belonged to a character of mine and went through some third parties to ransom it back. I had such a great time with that little plot that I tried to send kudos, but staff couldn't figure out who was responsible.

The theft/ransom thing has actually happened to me twice, now that I'm thinking about it. I had a great time both times.

Anyway, play how you want to play. Some characters are going to be willing to take risks (as thiefs or as victims) and some aren't. Some players get really cheesed OOC about theft and will only play paranoid characters for that reason. Some players invested a lot of time into their thief character and don't want to risk having to start all over with a new character. So what? It's a game, people are here to have fun. Let them have fun as long as they aren't breaking game rules by not RPing at all.

As far as that goes, it's a mistake to assume that the only RP that happens is the RP you can see though. In theft, in PK, wherever. Thinks, feels, and biographies are roleplay. The only people that legit get to tell anyone that they're doing it wrong are on staff.

It's been brought up a great number of times.  In a perfect world, yes, it would be a written like a book, Nile, with description and plot-advancement and all sorts of 'it all happens for a reason' explanation to everyone.

But there's a problem.  The game, as acknowledged, isn't perfect.  But neither is the playerbase.  We're all good, but nowhere near perfect, particularly where a lot of us still have disagreements on how the game 'should be' in the first place.  Some want it to read like a novel.  Some want to just run a human existence inside of the most reliable simulation -I've- ever seen.

That puts people at odds.  Sometimes, when a thief feels up to it, they may type in some flowers for the scene, make it fuckin' spectacular.  But sometimes, they may feel the weight of risk attached to something that was supposed to be successful; sure, you can say you'd play along, but a lot of people won't.  Some, assuming your emote means you wanted the interaction to go somewhere, will move it on in that direction.  Some will do it unconsciously.  Some will justify it in another way.

So as a thief player, it isn't 'I'm depriving you of the scene'.  It's not laziness.  It's not generally any of that...it's generally a desire for successful lifts to be just as ninja as they'd have to be in real life for there to be literally 0 reaction to their action.

It's a lot like raiding.  Generally speaking, players are pretty cool.  But under stressful or inconvenient circumstances that hold a great deal of weight due to loss of progress, loss of character, or loss of anonymity for your criminal mastermind, just bank on the general consensus to be 'greatest benefit without abuse'.  Take note of those who seem to make things positive for you, even as an enemy or antagonist, and kudos them, because while it can end up great, it can also end up really bad, and people willing to take that risk for you to enjoy the action are taking a leap with the hope you'll catch them.

I don't think you're wrong for wanting more out of it.  But I do think it's coming from a place that is not acknowledging the hardship of the other side.

Quote from: oggotale on May 23, 2019, 02:14:31 AM
Just to clarify, do you wish for subtle emotes during most thievery while hidden, or unhidden emotes?

In the first case, it would add a sprinkle of flavor perhaps but it wont really drive plots right, since they'd still be a hidden "someone" in the emotes, whan can you do that you didn't before, emote out how pissed you are earlier instead of later? it would cut down how much theft can occur though.

Or do you wish for unhidden emotes, wherein your thief reveals himself fully? (Reveals himself with the command that is they might still RP thinking they're being subtley smooth)

Only the last case would drive plots, potentially.

Moreso the flavour, so it doesn't feel like vNPC thieves every single time, of which there are a huge variety of ways to go about adding without jeopardising your identity at all and can be executed after a theft. It just adds to the game. For instance, in the past I would simply do my steal, move a room, shout something abusive in a random cloak and sprint off. Nobody knows you, but now we've got people on the lookout for someone in a fake cloak (which benefits my own PCs continuing theft). Someone might recognise something, who knows! I don't want to tell people every single way they can possibly do something to make things more fun, but it sure would add to the RP element of the game. Something like 75% of my characters have been sneaks of some type, so it's not like I'm unaware of what it's like to be a thief. That's actually the precise reason I was disappointed. Love the ransom idea above. That sort of thing is brilliant.

Honestly, a bit sad to come back to the game after a few years hiatus and see hostile responses to a well-intended thread. People seem very protective of their ability to be a de facto vNPC, haha. Either way, I'll probably drop off again everyone can relax about some random dude on the internet trying to promote RP discussion for a RP game.

Gotcha.

I guess, I don't value that interaction in particular to be all that valuable though, and if you do it everytime it's actually a bit unimmersive for "me the thief" (because that's not how theft realistically works) ad also "me the victim".

I don't think it's at all necessary for the victim of a theft to get RP from their thief at all, the flavor and roleplay occurs for the thief and for those he decides to engage with given his loot later. This does not bother me.

Tbh as a victim I feel more immersed if I randomly notice a couple of my mount tickets have dissaepeared than if such a thing never occured. 

Quote from: Nile on May 25, 2019, 09:32:14 PM


Honestly, a bit sad to come back to the game after a few years hiatus and see hostile responses to a well-intended thread. People seem very protective of their ability to be a de facto vNPC, haha. Either way, I'll probably drop off again everyone can relax about some random dude on the internet trying to promote RP discussion for a RP game.

Disagreement is not hostility, friend.  I don't agree with your assessment or the value of what you say. I'm not upset and neither should you be.

People are allowed to have dissenting opinions.

I personally think that the criminal roles, should be karma blocked more than the magicker roles.

But I think I've said that before.  The reason being is that when these folks with great agility and races that amplify it (looking at you elves) get high STEAL and Stealth Skills they are almost unstoppable.  Or apparently.

Now I don't have years of hunting thieves down under my belt, but I know had a MASTER scan, Master Listen Miscreant, who couldn't see some people who were hidden in the gaj.  And I don't mean the having to type look a few times to get the tick of how look shadow works.

I mean I could type look shadow 500 times and not see them, they were so far beyond me.  But yet kept popping someone emotes and stealing from folks.

Now I am not saying thieves should be gimped or easily caught or anything, but the problem is that they are much more disruptive to the game I feel.  Specifically the mount ticket stealers that will sit in the stables and wait for the rent mount command to steal ticket instantly.

I have even seen a few with my characters, but what do you do?  You can't kill em, cause the crime code will beat your ass and make you wanted.  You can't out them, because even aiming emotes at them doesn't stop them from hiding.

Those are the major problems I see with stealth, the majority of the places you get stolen from you have no recourse, even if you see the fucker.  Yeah I could report them to the AOD, but if they don't just happen to see the same hidden elf as me, they can't attack them or subdue them either.

Perhaps maybe make killing folks and attacking folks not instantly make you wanted would be the answer?  Maybe adding a window of say 10 minutes after getting stolen from, a free game to kill your ass time, where you don't trigger crime code because they deserve no protection from the law?

Ultimately I don't know the answer, but what we have right now works and I don't think anyone is going to even attempt to change it, till they find a way to make it better.  So maybe someone with some more experience in the steal code could chime in on how to better regulate it.

Or possibly make some rooms like the stables safe rooms, no stealing possible.

I like the idea of being able to kill thieves that are discovered. Being discovered crime flags you anyway (i.e. the virtual/NPC police force all believe you're a thief) so it seems IC for the AoD to go easy on some dude for killing a thief. I don't think such a thing will ever be coded though.

Also, how the ever living shit is ocassionally being able to steal a mount ticket as disruptive to the game as gickery, my god. There are some non-RP things thieves have the power of doing, yes, but how can one even compare their powers to that of gickers, there's nowhere near enough they can do to warrant the same degree of OOC caution when handing out the role.

Plus, I'm fairly certain high agility elf miscreants with max hide and stealth ARE downright invisible, but if it were not so, I fail to see the viability of anyone playing that role at all. I also don't see how they're anything but a minor annoyance when they do abuse their powers. Sure they have the power to PG some stupid shit that can be immersion breaking at times, but them spying on you MUDsexing in a single-room apartment or stealing some mounttix seem little more than minor inconveniences.

Even when they're OOCly caught it seems like the kind of thing you'd give the elf a slap on the wrist for before scrambling his hair with a chuckle and telling him to get back to dicking around Allanak.

I have to be astoundingly lazy to keep my character's income realistically low most of the time. I wish I were stolen from more often. I actually can't even remember the last time I had something snatched. Jealous of Valeria here.

As far as the RP of it goes, I think it behooves the thief to be sensitive to the scene they're entering when they lift the object. If someone has just rented a mount, the ticket in their inventory would be, essentially, in hand. At least for the first few minutes.

I haven't heard emoting called flowery in AGES! Wow, that really brought 2006 back for me, guys. Anyway, I agree that roleplay can be done with no emotes whatever, possibly for the entire life of a character, and the character still consistent and well-played. I got to play with a PC a couple years ago who did the most astonishing job just using our tiny handful of socials. She was incredible! I adored her!

Nile, I'm honestly sorry the thieving hurt your experience. It's not at all impossible that it was handled incorrectly in a way you can't disclose. Then, usually when you bring something to staff attention, you never find out the resolution and that's also a bit frustrating. I do hope you can give the other player some leeway if that was the case. I like to think we're all in a state of improving ourselves, including our roleplay and grasp of the game as a whole.

The tendency for pickpockets to be completely undetectable is part of an arms race between them and any PC in authority. If someone so much as gets a glimpse of your sdesc or mdesc or height or race while you're pickpocketing a random commoner on Stonecarver's, you're pretty much fucked 'cause now you're slated as Public Enemy #1. It sounds hyperbolic, but I just think it's an inevitable consequence of having only a few dozen PCs in a city of virtual thousands, where virtual crimes are happening all the virtual time. The jarring crimcode is also in part responsible for this; Apparently the militia really cares about protecting elves from getting their purse snatched by other elves, instead of just shrugging their shoulders and going "Meh, knife-ear business".

Quote from: path on May 26, 2019, 02:36:50 AM
I have to be astoundingly lazy to keep my character's income realistically low most of the time. I wish I were stolen from more often. I actually can't even remember the last time I had something snatched. Jealous of Valeria here.

As far as the RP of it goes, I think it behooves the thief to be sensitive to the scene they're entering when they lift the object. If someone has just rented a mount, the ticket in their inventory would be, essentially, in hand. At least for the first few minutes.

I haven't heard emoting called flowery in AGES! Wow, that really brought 2006 back for me, guys. Anyway, I agree that roleplay can be done with no emotes whatever, possibly for the entire life of a character, and the character still consistent and well-played. I got to play with a PC a couple years ago who did the most astonishing job just using our tiny handful of socials. She was incredible! I adored her!

Nile, I'm honestly sorry the thieving hurt your experience. It's not at all impossible that it was handled incorrectly in a way you can't disclose. Then, usually when you bring something to staff attention, you never find out the resolution and that's also a bit frustrating. I do hope you can give the other player some leeway if that was the case. I like to think we're all in a state of improving ourselves, including our roleplay and grasp of the game as a whole.

Sure.  I don't disagree that it can be abused, and stealing a ticket out of someone's hand in the stable is generally pretty bad.  Also, I don't even dislike flowery rp, it was just a word I used to mean 'more writing' vs 'less writing'.  I come from MUSHes, and am used to writing a lot more, so there's no negative connotation there.  It's just a different way of doing things, and in Arm specifically, acting with code in a way that fits the role you're playing has been considered acceptable.

Nobody is arguing against roleplaying and having fun, the point is just being made that just because you don't see it, does not mean that it does not exist.

Quote from: maxid on May 26, 2019, 10:27:34 PM

Quote from: path on May 26, 2019, 02:36:50 AM
I have to be astoundingly lazy to keep my character's income realistically low most of the time. I wish I were stolen from more often. I actually can't even remember the last time I had something snatched. Jealous of Valeria here.

As far as the RP of it goes, I think it behooves the thief to be sensitive to the scene they're entering when they lift the object. If someone has just rented a mount, the ticket in their inventory would be, essentially, in hand. At least for the first few minutes.

I haven't heard emoting called flowery in AGES! Wow, that really brought 2006 back for me, guys. Anyway, I agree that roleplay can be done with no emotes whatever, possibly for the entire life of a character, and the character still consistent and well-played. I got to play with a PC a couple years ago who did the most astonishing job just using our tiny handful of socials. She was incredible! I adored her!

Nile, I'm honestly sorry the thieving hurt your experience. It's not at all impossible that it was handled incorrectly in a way you can't disclose. Then, usually when you bring something to staff attention, you never find out the resolution and that's also a bit frustrating. I do hope you can give the other player some leeway if that was the case. I like to think we're all in a state of improving ourselves, including our roleplay and grasp of the game as a whole.

Sure.  I don't disagree that it can be abused, and stealing a ticket out of someone's hand in the stable is generally pretty bad.  Also, I don't even dislike flowery rp, it was just a word I used to mean 'more writing' vs 'less writing'.  I come from MUSHes, and am used to writing a lot more, so there's no negative connotation there.  It's just a different way of doing things, and in Arm specifically, acting with code in a way that fits the role you're playing has been considered acceptable.

Nobody is arguing against roleplaying and having fun, the point is just being made that just because you don't see it, does not mean that it does not exist.

Oldie but a goodie.
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/224/1.html

Quote from: path on May 27, 2019, 08:41:47 AM
Oldie but a goodie.
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/224/1.html

Also entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  Thief characters might be doing beautifully crafted emotes full of shimmering moonlight and skillful artistry... there's just no guarantee that you, the stolen-from sees them.  They either might use those when their character isn't being an unseen shadow, or they might use hemote and just be that stealthy. 

I play thieves sometimes.  I also tend to write emotes on the longer end of the allowed scale.  These are not mutually exclusive.  They, in fact, have nothing to do with each other.  I was merely making the point that 'using steal and walking out without visible emotes' is not bad rp.  Even 'using steal and walking out sans emotes' is not bad Rp.  And it's unfair and lazy to claim that it is. 

You don't see the rest of the interaction around it.  To you, your pack disappears.  To a myriad of other people, there may be trickle down reactions and interesting play.  Interesting scenes happen all the time in Arm without you seeing them.  The only difference is that in a scene with a thief, some of your stuff makes an appearance.

Quote from: maxid on May 27, 2019, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: path on May 27, 2019, 08:41:47 AM
Oldie but a goodie.
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/224/1.html

Also entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  Thief characters might be doing beautifully crafted emotes full of shimmering moonlight and skillful artistry... there's just no guarantee that you, the stolen-from sees them.  They either might use those when their character isn't being an unseen shadow, or they might use hemote and just be that stealthy. 

I play thieves sometimes.  I also tend to write emotes on the longer end of the allowed scale.  These are not mutually exclusive.  They, in fact, have nothing to do with each other.  I was merely making the point that 'using steal and walking out without visible emotes' is not bad rp.  Even 'using steal and walking out sans emotes' is not bad Rp.  And it's unfair and lazy to claim that it is. 

You don't see the rest of the interaction around it.  To you, your pack disappears.  To a myriad of other people, there may be trickle down reactions and interesting play.  Interesting scenes happen all the time in Arm without you seeing them.  The only difference is that in a scene with a thief, some of your stuff makes an appearance.

It's about role play, making it relevant.

It's, at best, tangential to the discussion.  It's premise is that beautiful emotes are good.  Nobody's disputing that.  It has no bearing on whether thieves should give your scan (master) extra chances to detect them by using hemote. 

The beauty of the hemote is irrelevant, and liking/writing good flowery poses doesn't preclude you from not hemoting during theft.

They should use hemotes, the code reflects something was done and an emote reflects how it was done. Code does not equal RP in Arm and Emote does not equal RP in Arm. RP in Arm is a combination of the two to tell a story.

nah.

Do what you like.  If staff doesn't like it they'll let you know.  Play your role, whether that includes making sure Hauwke and Cerelum get a dozen chances for their carefully min-max'd scan to see you or not.

Quote from: maxid on May 27, 2019, 10:15:22 PM
nah.

Do what you like.  If staff doesn't like it they'll let you know.  Play your role, whether that includes making sure Hauwke and Cerelum get a dozen chances for their carefully min-max'd scan to see you or not.

I can't really get behind this kind of stance, and I find it to be a problematic one at that. Promotion of lacking roleplay isn't good for the game. Despite what some people think, Staff isn't always watching.

Quote from: Cabooze on May 27, 2019, 10:46:32 PM
I can't really get behind this kind of stance, and I find it to be a problematic one at that. Promotion of lacking roleplay isn't good for the game. Despite what some people think, Staff isn't always watching.

I'm not doing that thankfully.  I'm taking the position that both are fine ways to play depending on the circumstances, and you shouldn't let gdb loudmouths define how you interact with the game. 

My posts have been all about praising big, flowery poses while also mentioning that they're not necessary for one to be 'Rping well'.

I'm not sure where this fella got all offended all the sudden.

But my concern with stealth and thievery is that even if you detect it, you have no recourse.

If I know someone is getting stolen from, and I see the act, I can't type kill thief or kill shadow without losing my character to the guards.

There are literally ways for a thief who's detected and wanted to get away by spamming move directions faster than the npc's can subdue/attack him.  While I could be in a more deserted area, one that doesn't trigger the guards when he fails on me, and then attack him and suddenly the whole city knows I attacked someone.

There should be ways to retaliate against thieves that aren't, "Get an arm player." "Get a templar."

If you take the outdoors for instance, you can roll up on a stranger, type kill stranger and murder him, no issues if he doesn't run away or you get him reel-locked.

But in town, the way stealth works, you can literally see someone steal from your friend/girl/randomdude and you can't do shit about it.

That's why I think that getting caught should make you free game to EVERYONE.

Catch a rinther in my pocket, kill rinther, DING.  Problem solved.

It's almost like the lawlessness of the sands makes it harder to exist, whereas within the city you can get away with a grey area of behavior, kept dubiously safe by a brutal and merciless Templarate that doesn't tolerate anyone else exercising power.

It'd be cool if there was a game where the cities had that as a major part of their theme.

Quote from: maxid on May 27, 2019, 11:59:33 PM
It's almost like the lawlessness of the sands makes it harder to exist, whereas within the city you can get away with a grey area of behavior, kept dubiously safe by a brutal and merciless Templarate that doesn't tolerate anyone else exercising power.

It'd be cool if there was a game where the cities had that as a major part of their theme.

Yes but tell me, say there are no Templar PC's on.  Or they are doing some Templary thing in their golden tower?

Or the Arm is all asleep.

Is your suggestion to tell the nearest soldier of tektolnes about the theft?

I don't think you understood a single word I typed.

You're not allowed to exercise violence in the city because you're not in the Arm/Templarate.  You're protected, the thief is protected, everyone is protected. 

Authoritarian states monopolize the power to kill.  It's one of the ways that they keep people in line.  If you could kill anyone who looked at you funny, or who you claimed was stealing from you, the area would be lawless.

Thievery/pickpocketing exist within this and exploit the monopoly of power held by the AoD/Templarate because it helps keep them safe.  That's one of the costs of living in a city where that drunk dwarf can't one-hit-two-handed maul your character to death because he's REALLY tired of being called a stump today.

Being minorly stolen from now and then is part of the deal.  If you get stolen from, guess what?  The Templars actually should not give much of a shit.  You are not special.  You are a (likely) a filthy commoner who is whining about a two-sid piece of equipment in a city full of millions.  You thinking your special enough to warrant immediate satisfaction is, honestly, kinda bad Rp. 

You're suffering from the fishbowl effect.  There are like 200 people total that play this game, and 20-60 are on at a time (rough numbers).  This doesn't reflect the vnpc population of Allanak at all.  Templars interact more with PCs because PCs pose at them more, but in reality you're likely intensely unimportant.  You don't have as much recourse when being stolen from.  It is not 2019.  Your character does not live in a society like the one your recognize when you go outside.  Theft, death, and horrific abuses of power are a part of every day life, and that's just how it is in Zalanthas.

All I ask for, is a few hemotes here and there. And no, its not so I can detect your pc, I rarely ever roll a PC with scan at any rate. No, I ask for hemotes because that is what I would do. Reciprocation is important to maintaining a working relationship within the game. At the end of the day, you aren't stealing from a player, you are stealing from some random on the street and that isn't the players fault.

Conversly, people need to chill the fuck out when someone steals their 5 sid gith knife from their belt. Dude, calm, it is literally the cheapest item in the game.

Quote from: Hauwke on May 28, 2019, 01:53:51 AM
All I ask for, is a few hemotes here and there.

Why don't you ask for semotes, instead?  It was quite literally created for these purposes. It doesn't echo inappropriate meta-knowledge to other PCs who shouldn't be getting it.

Quote from: Cabooze on May 27, 2019, 10:46:32 PMI can't really get behind this kind of stance, and I find it to be a problematic one at that. Promotion of lacking roleplay isn't good for the game. Despite what some people think, Staff isn't always watching.

Failing to emote isn't failing to roleplay. Plenty of roleplay can happen without a single emote.

That said, the steal command does an emote to be appended on and that is more then sufficient to describe how the theft attempt is happening.

Quote from: Cerelum on May 28, 2019, 12:01:48 AM

Quote from: maxid on May 27, 2019, 11:59:33 PM
It's almost like the lawlessness of the sands makes it harder to exist, whereas within the city you can get away with a grey area of behavior, kept dubiously safe by a brutal and merciless Templarate that doesn't tolerate anyone else exercising power.

It'd be cool if there was a game where the cities had that as a major part of their theme.

Yes but tell me, say there are no Templar PC's on.  Or they are doing some Templary thing in their golden tower?

Or the Arm is all asleep.

Is your suggestion to tell the nearest soldier of tektolnes about the theft?

Hell no. Contact the thief and ask for some coin to keep quiet. Screw helping whoever got stolen from.

You can attack anyone who is crimflagged without gaining a crimflag.

Quote from: Armaddict on May 28, 2019, 09:14:07 AM
You can attack anyone who is crimflagged without gaining a crimflag.

This was not true back in 2002. I don't know whether or not it's true today. I've only lost one character to this code quirk. If it has been updated that's awesome.

Most definitely true.  Was also true in 2002.  I don't know the circumstance of your lost character, but this is tried and true.

Just don't do it to someone who's already subdued and being dragged to jail, everyone will just call you a twink for that, cuz the feelbads are real.

Quote from: Armaddict on May 28, 2019, 09:14:07 AM
You can attack anyone who is crimflagged without gaining a crimflag.

I too have died to soldiers and/or been arrested for attacking folks who failed to steal from me.

It would be interesting to know if this is in fact true, I'm gonna have to start walking around with my weapons out and give it a try next time.

Quote from: Nameless Face on May 28, 2019, 08:30:08 AM

Quote from: Hauwke on May 28, 2019, 01:53:51 AM
All I ask for, is a few hemotes here and there.

Why don't you ask for semotes, instead?  It was quite literally created for these purposes. It doesn't echo inappropriate meta-knowledge to other PCs who shouldn't be getting it.

Alright, that was a mistake. I meant to write semotes.

Not every failed steal attempt results in a crimflag, even in populated areas.

'You get caught!  People notice, but then look away.'

Or something like that.

Edit:  Also, be careful if you have scan and they're hidden.  This nuance is not super familiar to me, and I know that there can be mixups with 'assist' order in the case of npc's.  i.e. Assist the one who got attacked over pursue crimcode.  It's a very dangerous area, but some of us took risks because the 'oh no you din't' was stronger than the fear of crimcode, and I've taken that risk as recently as 2015 or so.  I've killed people in the Gaj knowing I could hold off soldiers long enough to finish the fight, flee, and be taken to jail to tell a templar 'They stole from me.'  Note that templars will generally not be happy about the law being taken out of their hands.

Part of the advantage of playing 'back in the day' was that hide used to break while moving room to room unless you were shadowing someone, even if you were sneaking.  So you -had- to deal with crimcode, and had to deal with the prospect of fighting through soldiers to get to a safe place.  Since you had to deal with it, you had to be at least somewhat familiar with it.  Hell, I can remember when patrolling npc's started and how big of a boon it was, because you could learn which npc's to shadow to move from here to there without breaking your hide.

Like I said, it's not particularly liked, but I feel with some context and responsibility, you really should shed the idea that you're just completely helpless to defend yourself from shady sorts.  Shady people know they're taking risks.  Or they should, anyway.

Also, as I mentioned before, the Templarate/AoD do not want your PC to feel like they can execute people in the street.  That's the sole purview of the AoD/Templarate.  This is intentional.  This is how brutal dictatorships work.

You're not meant to be able to show off your carefully min-maxed hack/riposte/chopping (master) in the middle of a city.  That's not to theme.

Kind of a digression that I went on there, just a response to the 'you can't attack them' thing.

The OP was more concerned about the roleplay involved, and so I'd reiterate what was said in my first post to keep on topic.

Worrying about crim code and losing your character seems to be at conflict with the desire to have more role-play involved. If your character would attack someone who stole from them, or who they witnessed stealing from someone else, then just do it. If your character is more worried about soldiers arresting/killing them, then report it to someone else if the theft is seen. It seems to me that the thief in this example has already done their part in playing their role.

Either way, whether I lose my character or not.  I am waiting for the next thief to steal from me now.  Weapons in hand.  Crime code, who needs it!

Quote from: Hauwke on May 28, 2019, 01:53:51 AM
All I ask for, is a few hemotes here and there.

Any of which carries a good chance of being noticed, getting you watched, then causing you to fail the actual steal and immediately either being carted off to jail or killed by the guards. What you are asking for is unreasonable as hell.

For every 'bad criminal' story anyone can give, I can give you back five 'bad victim' stories.

How about the guy who never saw a single thing yet gave the Arm the complete sdesc of the first rinther he saw? Or the templar who believed him and hauled the protesting rinther to the cuddler to be ripped apart? Or the guy who got knocked out in the street in one hit with a sap from hiding, yet suddenly someone in a completely different city Way'd the mugger threatening to kill them if they harmed the victim? Or the literally DOZENS of people who have the ability in the dead of the night to see past your dark hooded cloak and your face wrap to give your complete long description to the guards? Or the 5-minutes-out-of-chargen character whose knife you just tole off their belt and every templar, Byn sergeant, three nobles, and all the Jade, as well as two sponsored role characters in Luir's suddenly are threatening you and putting a 10 large bounty on your head?

I'm sorry, but I don't trust the playerbase NEAR enough to be giving up any hemotes when there's no risk to them and ALL the risk to me. That's the bottom line. You're asking for something that thieves and criminals don't get back in return. Literally every criminal character is simply a ticking time bomb of mantis head waiting to explode once they're known as a thief, a burglar, or mugger.

I don't trust the player base enough either, countless times have a I done something and people merely spam a coded response until they succeed.

Learn to lose people. That goes for both sides.

Have to agree with you both, the risk for flavor is often the end of said character in this circumstance. Truly has to do with the impatience of the playerbase (which can go either way, I regret not being impatient enough and giving cheeseballs time to spam away) and fear of the expected.

I once attempted to mug someone and had them at odds, both of us RPing away before an emoteless twink arrived with a sap! Luckily, I had nosave combat on so I managed to easily flee while getting a say and emote off.

Disappointing to find out later there was a mob of players nearby that my character narrowly avoided, it was enjoyable but I totally understand that distaste for hemoting - for once your character dies in that way, your adventure ends with a foul taste in the mouth.

Hate to say it but I've seen too many characters outlive their stay on more than one occasion, nauseating enough to just say: nah, no more 👎 which I admit is a sad conclusion to make. Playing too safe just isn't something I admire! Risk takers on the other hand I do, at least then they have earned the benefit of the doubt and may live further for risky storymaking.

I actually could care less for PvP buuut after some unsatisfying situations, I'm at the same point where you two are! Kill first, ask questions later *edginess intensifies*.

Further: isn't being Templar'd the worst?!

It's funny. First we get threads at how weak celves are and they needed more coded advantage. Now there's talk of how powerful they are at stealth and thievery.

Quote from: Dar on May 29, 2019, 01:44:30 AM
It's funny. First we get threads at how weak celves are and they needed more coded advantage. Now there's talk of how powerful they are at stealth and thievery.

Serioously. We've got people playing a (according to the GDB) unplayable race and people are bitching because they're not getting 20 attempts at spotting the thief per steal command

Quote from: John on May 29, 2019, 03:20:42 AM

Quote from: Dar on May 29, 2019, 01:44:30 AM
It's funny. First we get threads at how weak celves are and they needed more coded advantage. Now there's talk of how powerful they are at stealth and thievery.

Serioously. We've got people playing a (according to the GDB) unplayable race and people are bitching because they're not getting 20 attempts at spotting the thief per steal command

I feel like everyone just wants their PC to live forever and never lose anything based on the comments in this thread and other threads and it is honestly confusing to me.

Maybe that thief DOES h/semote, you just do not see it.

The game is not intended to be fair or equal for the players. Every selection and choice has pros and cons.

Don't want to get stolen from? Do not wear or flaunt around in expensive shit.

What do you do when you get stolen from? If you can afford expensive gear that attracts thieves you can bribe people. That includes all PC's of the AOD, Guild, celf thief clans, player run clans etc.

No, PC on to bribe? Run to the nearest npc and wish up, RP a scene, wait for an animation. If there is not an animation, send ing your log via request tool.

Like in real life, do not expect immediate results, but expect the thief to be dealt with in time. This works about 60-70% of the time and creates RP for many people.

Just please stop asking staff to nerf the game to shit. This is a harsh, desert environment in a dog eat dog world.

Since time immemorial players have been outraged over being stolen from. Almost more than being pkilled even! There's something deeply, personally upsetting about thieves to the Armageddon player. But...

Emoting does not = RP (same with semoting and hemoting). It's verbal decoration. Add to this the fact that it is codedly possible to make yourself 100% steal proof if you apply a few simple measures. You can literally cockblock the hell out of thieves to the point that they are powerless. Imagine if there was a clever coded way to make it so mages can't cast spells on you. Imagine the conversation we'd be having then. If we're going to talk about what's overpowered, I'd start with the fact that you can nullify a thief's primary skill from ever working. That seems pretty overpowered to me.

How does one RP without emotes. I can't imagine a book being even slightly, little, interesting if it reads like a repetitive jumble of pre-set sentences. Does good roleplay not manifest as good writing?

But alright, I think I do get what sort of conception of roleplay folks who say that have, in some sense. That being said, I find that semotes and hemotes / solo-emotes help "get me in the mood" of the character and immersed in him (even if telling a good story as would be described in a good book ISN'T the main goal).

Quote from: oggotale on May 30, 2019, 12:38:58 PM
How does one RP without emotes. I can't imagine a book being even slightly, little, interesting if it reads like a repetitive jumble of pre-set sentences. Does good roleplay not manifest as good writing?

Emotes. Thinks. Feels. These are all things we use to roleplay our character's actions and thoughts, get us in the mood, and help round out the believability that they are a real person.

Kill. Bash. Backstab. Steal. Poison. These are all things we use to roleplay our character's actions, get us in the mood, and round out the believability that they are a real person with real talents.

You do not NEED to emote, to roleplay being a thief, or a warrior, or a ranger. You don't NEED to do more than "nod" or "grunt". You don't need to do much to roleplay a character, Armageddon just gives you a lot of tools to help the narrative.

Quote from: oggotale on May 30, 2019, 12:38:58 PM
How does one RP without emotes. I can't imagine a book being even slightly, little, interesting if it reads like a repetitive jumble of pre-set sentences. Does good roleplay not manifest as good writing?

But alright, I think I do get what sort of conception of roleplay folks who say that have, in some sense. That being said, I find that semotes and hemotes / solo-emotes help "get me in the mood" of the character and immersed in him (even if telling a good story as would be described in a good book ISN'T the main goal).

Not a single person has disagreed with the idea that emotes are cool, useful tools for characterization.

They singular argument that's been presented is 'if you don't give my minmax'd scan character 18 chances to spot you so that I'm immune to your thievery, you're a bad, terrible rper.' 

That's been disagreed with, and its been pointed out that, within Armageddon, there's more to 'playing a role' than pretty emotes.

Imagine a book without action, or internal dialogue. This is the meat and potatoes of 'RP' and what a character is. Verbose descriptions of actions are actually secondary to the actions themselves. Internal dialogue, via think and feel (which are pretty exclusive to ArmageddonMUD, and haven't always been around and we take for granted most of the time) provide greater insight into motivations behind those actions.

So yes, emoting does not = Role-play. It isn't the definition of Role-play, particularly on this MUD compared to say a MUSH, where emoting is one of the only means to RP. It can certainly add into the equation of Role-play, and I would be leery of someone who never emoted, never appended description to their actions. But the actions themselves are what define the PC and their believability and how they fit into the setting.

As pointed out elsewhere, the real arbiters of what makes good and bad RP are the guidelines of documentation, and Staff to enforce them. If the guidelines of documentation don't match up to a grey area, Staff seems to adjust the documentation to make that more firm for future schisms.

We as players can only assume and guess at another PC's motivations and whether or not they are thinking, or twinking. It's best to give the benefit of the doubt, and if you have sincere doubt to their motivations/level of RP, you can file a player complaint.

I'm not advocating RP without any emotes ever, nor am I saying it's good form to do so. I'm just saying emoting in and of itself does not equal RP.

Moreover, not every action must be followed up with an emote. Sometimes I used the hunt command and throw out an emote or two for further illustration, sometimes I don't. Same with any skill really. I'm sure some players RP stealing with an hemote or vague, suggestive emote, and other times they don't do that at all. Sometimes a raider comes charging in and attacks without emoting, sometimes they might be more expressive with their RP. Whatever the case, their RP is not defined by their emotes.

I'm not saying it's okay to never ever emote whatsoever. In fact that notion is so far removed from the topic I'm surprised it even came up.

Cool discussion. Nice to know a lot of players are happy for this interaction to occur.

Will keep in mind that people aren't too fussed about RP regarding theft. I've been putting in too much effort in the past. lol

Quote from: Nile on June 03, 2019, 01:52:52 AM
Cool discussion. Nice to know a lot of players are happy for this interaction to occur.

Will keep in mind that people aren't too fussed about RP regarding theft. I've been putting in too much effort in the past. lol

Lol. Please quote the people who said they don't want RP to occur when stealing is happening. Lol.

Quote from: John on June 03, 2019, 02:40:11 AM

Quote from: Nile on June 03, 2019, 01:52:52 AM
Cool discussion. Nice to know a lot of players are happy for this interaction to occur.

Will keep in mind that people aren't too fussed about RP regarding theft. I've been putting in too much effort in the past. lol

Lol. Please quote the people who said they don't want RP to occur when stealing is happening. Lol.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. Where did I say that?

I presume you're trying to extrapolate from the words 'aren't being too fussed' in reference to the typical player's mentality? Lol. Did I do something to piss you off, dude? Because you sure seem to have a weird bias going on. To clarify for you, not being too fussed means I won't worry too much about making theft into an actual interaction with emotes/a shout from the next room/mumbling an apology and leaving before they can look/ or anything that could attract attention and stick to semotes/hemotes as much as it suits me to do so. How's that? All of this should have been obvious if you'd read my posts but I'm happy to go over it this one last time for you :)

Quote from: Nile on June 03, 2019, 01:52:52 AM
Will keep in mind that people aren't too fussed about RP regarding theft. I've been putting in too much effort in the past. lol

I think most people would interpret this post as saying you won't bother RPing when you use the steal command. I don't think anything else you said merits a response.

Quote from: John on June 03, 2019, 07:46:05 AM

Quote from: Nile on June 03, 2019, 01:52:52 AM
Will keep in mind that people aren't too fussed about RP regarding theft. I've been putting in too much effort in the past. lol

I think most people would interpret this post as saying you won't bother RPing when you use the steal command. I don't think anything else you said merits a response.

I thought the discussion was generally along the lines of its perfectly acceptable with semotes/hemotes and you shouldn't feel pressured to stir up a plot with every theft? Did I miss something or are you just trying to prove some sort of personal point?

EDIT: Reading back I'm really not sure how you got to this point. I clearly referenced the discussion immediately before the comment you began trying to draw dubious conclusions from in some weird attempt to put me down or something. By referencing the discussion I provided context which you perhaps missed. Or you can try arguing with me like this all night. I love this sort of thing.

Quote from: Nile on June 03, 2019, 01:52:52 AM
Cool discussion. Nice to know a lot of players are happy for this interaction to occur.

Will keep in mind that people aren't too fussed about RP regarding theft. I've been putting in too much effort in the past. lol

Personally, I HOPE there is RP behind me being stolen from.

However, I also ensure that any amount of coins I have, less than 100, is being carried in my inventory. If I have 259 coins, 59 is in my inventory.

If I have a mount ticket? It goes into my belt, or a pouch. If you can unlatch that pouch, and steal the ticket, without me noticing? You just made yourself a couple small, and next time the ticket is going up my ass.

Quote from: Riev on June 03, 2019, 10:21:42 AM

Personally, I HOPE there is RP behind me being stolen from.

However, I also ensure that any amount of coins I have, less than 100, is being carried in my inventory. If I have 259 coins, 59 is in my inventory.

If I have a mount ticket? It goes into my belt, or a pouch. If you can unlatch that pouch, and steal the ticket, without me noticing? You just made yourself a couple small, and next time the ticket is going up my ass.

This sort of attitude, where you leave yourself realistically not PERMALOCKED DOWN COMPLETELY encourages good rp from thieves in my experience.  Thievery, like PK or any other pvp aspect of Arm can easily become an arms race (heh get it), and de-escalating makes everyone have more fun.

While I am not broke by any means in character, I find it jarring OOCLY when I had someone coins and they don't put them away.

I realize that it's totally their choice but it's still odd to me.

I'll admit that being stolen from makes me go for blood, it just feels invasive and wrong which of course it's designed to.

Maybe I'll start carrying 10 or 20 coins in inventory just to see what happens but I bet they will be gone in one trip around the city or to a bar.

After playing a ton of sneaky types I've found one of the best ways for a paranoid character to deal with theft, when they know they are a mark or are just naturally paranoid, or it just fits RP wise, is to keep a bunch of decoy pouches/coins etc all over my character for when you may need them (likely never). Then either they need to rob you blind and risk fucking up a bunch, or just hope they get lucky and grab the one thing with the your valuables inside. I also like this for organisation sake when I have a variety of specific items. Each pouch for a particular type of item. Certainly makes being stolen from more of a challenge regardless of what's going on and a realistic way of dealing with theft.

I mean, when I've lived in certain cities and particularly dangerous areas, I would always have a decoy wallet with nothing in it except like 20 bucks or something for anybody trying to mug me with a knife or whatever (i remember a guy IRL tried mugging me once years back in my early/mid twenties. Didn't get anything except a few bruises each when it clicked that he didn't have a weapon on him) and another one in a hidden pocket with anything valuable. Another time, this time in Cambodia after doing some asian meth in a brothel in a baaaaaad part of Phnom Penh I got a knife pulled on me, flipped out the decoy wallet, they took the 20 bucks, then I got out of there with the 50 odd dollars (they trade in US dollars since their own currency is basically worthless) I'd taken with me. Shit is proven to work IG and IRL.

Stealing a couch is actually really easy Irl.

Most people would need a trailer to get anywhere far with a couch unless they were SUPER dedicated and extremely fit.

Quote from: Hauwke on July 11, 2019, 02:50:38 AM
Most people would need a trailer to get anywhere far with a couch unless they were SUPER dedicated and extremely fit.

Or drunk as shit. I've seen this done/am guilty of it. Depends where you gotta take the couch really.

Me and a group of friends used to prank each other by putting the others couches on their roof.

I failed to factor in drunk antics and groups, extremely good points.