Roleplaying theft?

[maxid]

This guy is being bashed for asking for more RP...something is wrong with that. Some of you have gotten way too meta.

This is disingenuous.  Emotes are not Rp.  Actions are Rp.  A thief who takes a knife off your belt and sells it is doing what thieves do in real life.  They are playing the role of a thief.  Adding in extra emotes so that you get an extra chance to spot them with your carefully skill-max'd scan is not 'better rp', it's more flowery Rp.  It's a stylistic choice, and neither is wrong. 

As someone else pointed out, there are usually a bunch of trickled down interactions that happen after a theft that the victim doesn't see.  That doesn't mean that the thief is 'bad'.  This whole thread is just people posting sour grapes and Cerellum pushing crazy code-heavy anti-rp schemes to become invincible in this MUD that prides itself on its gritty permadeath environment.

[Riev]

Anecdote:

I was once hired to steal the spice pipe of a Kuraci Agent. It was purportedly a very favored pipe. I had to wait for him to not only be online, but for our times online to mesh. It took weeks of planning, finding out where he'd be, deciding if I set up a meeting and possibly expose myself, or have someone else set up a meeting for something innocuous.

Weeks of planning. Finally managed to find him, sneak around, unlatch his spice pouch, and steal the pipe.
I think my payment was like... 1000 coins or something extravagant (but not so much considering the time it took).
In the end, the Kuraci likely saw and experience nothing but the missing pipe.

I had later heard that the client who was requesting the theft, pointedly sparked up in front of the Agent with his own spice pipe (though it wasn't unique by any means, so not sure how that went).
You got stolen from. Maybe it was coins, maybe it was a mount ticket, maybe it was your pair of sunslits. Someone stole them for a reason, even if it was to sell your big inix to the slaughterhouse for a few hundred coins, or to sell it to some wary traveler who will pay top-coin for it.

Being stolen from sucks. The code is not designed to give the victim a million chances. It is, in no way, up to the thief to provide you with visible regular emotes so you see "someone pads around the tavern, making little noise" and give you the opportunity to back up against a wall, scan, and cry foul when they succeed.

[Veselka]

Emoting /= RP

Playing your PC appropriately = RP, and there are various ways of doing this.

As Synthesis and PriestlySiren posit, Hemotes trigger a possibility of 'watch' catching them, and watch/scan in general tick a possibility of unstealthing someone AFAIK. Stealth isn't 100% perfect (though Miscreants are nigh invisible to most other classes besides Miscreant it seems). But considering how the AoD reacts to thieves, especially thieves that are stealing from people of some importance, it seems illogical that a thief would try to get caught. This is more for the benefit of Players other than the thief, than the thief PC or the player of the Thief.

There is nuance here, just as there is for PKs. If you think a PC is flagrantly disregarding RP for the sake of stealing constantly, or stealing in an unrealistic fashion, report them to Staff and let them look into it. If you think someone is PKing for the sake of griefing without RP to back it up, report them to Staff and let them look into it. But 9/10 times, I imagine there is RP that you just can't see from your PC's perspective.

The game is difficult enough as it is -- I think it is operating from a place of paranoia and self-preservation to assume that thieves are just a bunch of Soddy griefers. Are there a couple who operate in that fashion? Likely. Do they last long? Not likely, from my experience. The thieves that work the best are never seen, and never bragged about, or brag about themselves. You just look down one day and realize your (X) is missing and wonder if you misplaced it somewhere.

[valeria]

Anecdote:

Once, someone stole a precious thing that belonged to a character of mine and went through some third parties to ransom it back. I had such a great time with that little plot that I tried to send kudos, but staff couldn't figure out who was responsible.

The theft/ransom thing has actually happened to me twice, now that I'm thinking about it. I had a great time both times.

Anyway, play how you want to play. Some characters are going to be willing to take risks (as thiefs or as victims) and some aren't. Some players get really cheesed OOC about theft and will only play paranoid characters for that reason. Some players invested a lot of time into their thief character and don't want to risk having to start all over with a new character. So what? It's a game, people are here to have fun. Let them have fun as long as they aren't breaking game rules by not RPing at all.

As far as that goes, it's a mistake to assume that the only RP that happens is the RP you can see though. In theft, in PK, wherever. Thinks, feels, and biographies are roleplay. The only people that legit get to tell anyone that they're doing it wrong are on staff.

[Armaddict]

It's been brought up a great number of times.  In a perfect world, yes, it would be a written like a book, Nile, with description and plot-advancement and all sorts of 'it all happens for a reason' explanation to everyone.

But there's a problem.  The game, as acknowledged, isn't perfect.  But neither is the playerbase.  We're all good, but nowhere near perfect, particularly where a lot of us still have disagreements on how the game 'should be' in the first place.  Some want it to read like a novel.  Some want to just run a human existence inside of the most reliable simulation -I've- ever seen.

That puts people at odds.  Sometimes, when a thief feels up to it, they may type in some flowers for the scene, make it fuckin' spectacular.  But sometimes, they may feel the weight of risk attached to something that was supposed to be successful; sure, you can say you'd play along, but a lot of people won't.  Some, assuming your emote means you wanted the interaction to go somewhere, will move it on in that direction.  Some will do it unconsciously.  Some will justify it in another way.

So as a thief player, it isn't 'I'm depriving you of the scene'.  It's not laziness.  It's not generally any of that...it's generally a desire for successful lifts to be just as ninja as they'd have to be in real life for there to be literally 0 reaction to their action.

It's a lot like raiding.  Generally speaking, players are pretty cool.  But under stressful or inconvenient circumstances that hold a great deal of weight due to loss of progress, loss of character, or loss of anonymity for your criminal mastermind, just bank on the general consensus to be 'greatest benefit without abuse'.  Take note of those who seem to make things positive for you, even as an enemy or antagonist, and kudos them, because while it can end up great, it can also end up really bad, and people willing to take that risk for you to enjoy the action are taking a leap with the hope you'll catch them.

I don't think you're wrong for wanting more out of it.  But I do think it's coming from a place that is not acknowledging the hardship of the other side.

[Nile]

Just to clarify, do you wish for subtle emotes during most thievery while hidden, or unhidden emotes?

In the first case, it would add a sprinkle of flavor perhaps but it wont really drive plots right, since they'd still be a hidden "someone" in the emotes, whan can you do that you didn't before, emote out how pissed you are earlier instead of later? it would cut down how much theft can occur though.

Or do you wish for unhidden emotes, wherein your thief reveals himself fully? (Reveals himself with the command that is they might still RP thinking they're being subtley smooth)

Only the last case would drive plots, potentially.

Moreso the flavour, so it doesn't feel like vNPC thieves every single time, of which there are a huge variety of ways to go about adding without jeopardising your identity at all and can be executed after a theft. It just adds to the game. For instance, in the past I would simply do my steal, move a room, shout something abusive in a random cloak and sprint off. Nobody knows you, but now we've got people on the lookout for someone in a fake cloak (which benefits my own PCs continuing theft). Someone might recognise something, who knows! I don't want to tell people every single way they can possibly do something to make things more fun, but it sure would add to the RP element of the game. Something like 75% of my characters have been sneaks of some type, so it's not like I'm unaware of what it's like to be a thief. That's actually the precise reason I was disappointed. Love the ransom idea above. That sort of thing is brilliant.

Honestly, a bit sad to come back to the game after a few years hiatus and see hostile responses to a well-intended thread. People seem very protective of their ability to be a de facto vNPC, haha. Either way, I'll probably drop off again everyone can relax about some random dude on the internet trying to promote RP discussion for a RP game.

[oggotale]

Gotcha.

I guess, I don't value that interaction in particular to be all that valuable though, and if you do it everytime it's actually a bit unimmersive for "me the thief" (because that's not how theft realistically works) ad also "me the victim".

I don't think it's at all necessary for the victim of a theft to get RP from their thief at all, the flavor and roleplay occurs for the thief and for those he decides to engage with given his loot later. This does not bother me.

Tbh as a victim I feel more immersed if I randomly notice a couple of my mount tickets have dissaepeared than if such a thing never occured. 

[maxid]

Honestly, a bit sad to come back to the game after a few years hiatus and see hostile responses to a well-intended thread. People seem very protective of their ability to be a de facto vNPC, haha. Either way, I'll probably drop off again everyone can relax about some random dude on the internet trying to promote RP discussion for a RP game.

Disagreement is not hostility, friend.  I don't agree with your assessment or the value of what you say. I'm not upset and neither should you be.

People are allowed to have dissenting opinions.

[Cerelum]

I personally think that the criminal roles, should be karma blocked more than the magicker roles.

But I think I've said that before.  The reason being is that when these folks with great agility and races that amplify it (looking at you elves) get high STEAL and Stealth Skills they are almost unstoppable.  Or apparently.

Now I don't have years of hunting thieves down under my belt, but I know had a MASTER scan, Master Listen Miscreant, who couldn't see some people who were hidden in the gaj.  And I don't mean the having to type look a few times to get the tick of how look shadow works.

I mean I could type look shadow 500 times and not see them, they were so far beyond me.  But yet kept popping someone emotes and stealing from folks.

Now I am not saying thieves should be gimped or easily caught or anything, but the problem is that they are much more disruptive to the game I feel.  Specifically the mount ticket stealers that will sit in the stables and wait for the rent mount command to steal ticket instantly.

I have even seen a few with my characters, but what do you do?  You can't kill em, cause the crime code will beat your ass and make you wanted.  You can't out them, because even aiming emotes at them doesn't stop them from hiding.

Those are the major problems I see with stealth, the majority of the places you get stolen from you have no recourse, even if you see the fucker.  Yeah I could report them to the AOD, but if they don't just happen to see the same hidden elf as me, they can't attack them or subdue them either.

Perhaps maybe make killing folks and attacking folks not instantly make you wanted would be the answer?  Maybe adding a window of say 10 minutes after getting stolen from, a free game to kill your ass time, where you don't trigger crime code because they deserve no protection from the law?

Ultimately I don't know the answer, but what we have right now works and I don't think anyone is going to even attempt to change it, till they find a way to make it better.  So maybe someone with some more experience in the steal code could chime in on how to better regulate it.

Or possibly make some rooms like the stables safe rooms, no stealing possible.

[oggotale]

I like the idea of being able to kill thieves that are discovered. Being discovered crime flags you anyway (i.e. the virtual/NPC police force all believe you're a thief) so it seems IC for the AoD to go easy on some dude for killing a thief. I don't think such a thing will ever be coded though.

Also, how the ever living shit is ocassionally being able to steal a mount ticket as disruptive to the game as gickery, my god. There are some non-RP things thieves have the power of doing, yes, but how can one even compare their powers to that of gickers, there's nowhere near enough they can do to warrant the same degree of OOC caution when handing out the role.

Plus, I'm fairly certain high agility elf miscreants with max hide and stealth ARE downright invisible, but if it were not so, I fail to see the viability of anyone playing that role at all. I also don't see how they're anything but a minor annoyance when they do abuse their powers. Sure they have the power to PG some stupid shit that can be immersion breaking at times, but them spying on you MUDsexing in a single-room apartment or stealing some mounttix seem little more than minor inconveniences.

Even when they're OOCly caught it seems like the kind of thing you'd give the elf a slap on the wrist for before scrambling his hair with a chuckle and telling him to get back to dicking around Allanak.

[path]

I have to be astoundingly lazy to keep my character's income realistically low most of the time. I wish I were stolen from more often. I actually can't even remember the last time I had something snatched. Jealous of Valeria here.

As far as the RP of it goes, I think it behooves the thief to be sensitive to the scene they're entering when they lift the object. If someone has just rented a mount, the ticket in their inventory would be, essentially, in hand. At least for the first few minutes.

I haven't heard emoting called flowery in AGES! Wow, that really brought 2006 back for me, guys. Anyway, I agree that roleplay can be done with no emotes whatever, possibly for the entire life of a character, and the character still consistent and well-played. I got to play with a PC a couple years ago who did the most astonishing job just using our tiny handful of socials. She was incredible! I adored her!

Nile, I'm honestly sorry the thieving hurt your experience. It's not at all impossible that it was handled incorrectly in a way you can't disclose. Then, usually when you bring something to staff attention, you never find out the resolution and that's also a bit frustrating. I do hope you can give the other player some leeway if that was the case. I like to think we're all in a state of improving ourselves, including our roleplay and grasp of the game as a whole.

[molecricket]

The tendency for pickpockets to be completely undetectable is part of an arms race between them and any PC in authority. If someone so much as gets a glimpse of your sdesc or mdesc or height or race while you're pickpocketing a random commoner on Stonecarver's, you're pretty much fucked 'cause now you're slated as Public Enemy #1. It sounds hyperbolic, but I just think it's an inevitable consequence of having only a few dozen PCs in a city of virtual thousands, where virtual crimes are happening all the virtual time. The jarring crimcode is also in part responsible for this; Apparently the militia really cares about protecting elves from getting their purse snatched by other elves, instead of just shrugging their shoulders and going "Meh, knife-ear business".

[maxid]

I have to be astoundingly lazy to keep my character's income realistically low most of the time. I wish I were stolen from more often. I actually can't even remember the last time I had something snatched. Jealous of Valeria here.

As far as the RP of it goes, I think it behooves the thief to be sensitive to the scene they're entering when they lift the object. If someone has just rented a mount, the ticket in their inventory would be, essentially, in hand. At least for the first few minutes.

I haven't heard emoting called flowery in AGES! Wow, that really brought 2006 back for me, guys. Anyway, I agree that roleplay can be done with no emotes whatever, possibly for the entire life of a character, and the character still consistent and well-played. I got to play with a PC a couple years ago who did the most astonishing job just using our tiny handful of socials. She was incredible! I adored her!

Nile, I'm honestly sorry the thieving hurt your experience. It's not at all impossible that it was handled incorrectly in a way you can't disclose. Then, usually when you bring something to staff attention, you never find out the resolution and that's also a bit frustrating. I do hope you can give the other player some leeway if that was the case. I like to think we're all in a state of improving ourselves, including our roleplay and grasp of the game as a whole.

Sure.  I don't disagree that it can be abused, and stealing a ticket out of someone's hand in the stable is generally pretty bad.  Also, I don't even dislike flowery rp, it was just a word I used to mean 'more writing' vs 'less writing'.  I come from MUSHes, and am used to writing a lot more, so there's no negative connotation there.  It's just a different way of doing things, and in Arm specifically, acting with code in a way that fits the role you're playing has been considered acceptable.

Nobody is arguing against roleplaying and having fun, the point is just being made that just because you don't see it, does not mean that it does not exist.

[path]

I have to be astoundingly lazy to keep my character's income realistically low most of the time. I wish I were stolen from more often. I actually can't even remember the last time I had something snatched. Jealous of Valeria here.

As far as the RP of it goes, I think it behooves the thief to be sensitive to the scene they're entering when they lift the object. If someone has just rented a mount, the ticket in their inventory would be, essentially, in hand. At least for the first few minutes.

I haven't heard emoting called flowery in AGES! Wow, that really brought 2006 back for me, guys. Anyway, I agree that roleplay can be done with no emotes whatever, possibly for the entire life of a character, and the character still consistent and well-played. I got to play with a PC a couple years ago who did the most astonishing job just using our tiny handful of socials. She was incredible! I adored her!

Nile, I'm honestly sorry the thieving hurt your experience. It's not at all impossible that it was handled incorrectly in a way you can't disclose. Then, usually when you bring something to staff attention, you never find out the resolution and that's also a bit frustrating. I do hope you can give the other player some leeway if that was the case. I like to think we're all in a state of improving ourselves, including our roleplay and grasp of the game as a whole.

Sure.  I don't disagree that it can be abused, and stealing a ticket out of someone's hand in the stable is generally pretty bad.  Also, I don't even dislike flowery rp, it was just a word I used to mean 'more writing' vs 'less writing'.  I come from MUSHes, and am used to writing a lot more, so there's no negative connotation there.  It's just a different way of doing things, and in Arm specifically, acting with code in a way that fits the role you're playing has been considered acceptable.

Nobody is arguing against roleplaying and having fun, the point is just being made that just because you don't see it, does not mean that it does not exist.

Oldie but a goodie.
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/224/1.html

[maxid]

Oldie but a goodie.
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/224/1.html

Also entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  Thief characters might be doing beautifully crafted emotes full of shimmering moonlight and skillful artistry... there's just no guarantee that you, the stolen-from sees them.  They either might use those when their character isn't being an unseen shadow, or they might use hemote and just be that stealthy. 

I play thieves sometimes.  I also tend to write emotes on the longer end of the allowed scale.  These are not mutually exclusive.  They, in fact, have nothing to do with each other.  I was merely making the point that 'using steal and walking out without visible emotes' is not bad rp.  Even 'using steal and walking out sans emotes' is not bad Rp.  And it's unfair and lazy to claim that it is. 

You don't see the rest of the interaction around it.  To you, your pack disappears.  To a myriad of other people, there may be trickle down reactions and interesting play.  Interesting scenes happen all the time in Arm without you seeing them.  The only difference is that in a scene with a thief, some of your stuff makes an appearance.

[Hauwke]

Oldie but a goodie.
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/224/1.html

Also entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  Thief characters might be doing beautifully crafted emotes full of shimmering moonlight and skillful artistry... there's just no guarantee that you, the stolen-from sees them.  They either might use those when their character isn't being an unseen shadow, or they might use hemote and just be that stealthy. 

I play thieves sometimes.  I also tend to write emotes on the longer end of the allowed scale.  These are not mutually exclusive.  They, in fact, have nothing to do with each other.  I was merely making the point that 'using steal and walking out without visible emotes' is not bad rp.  Even 'using steal and walking out sans emotes' is not bad Rp.  And it's unfair and lazy to claim that it is. 

You don't see the rest of the interaction around it.  To you, your pack disappears.  To a myriad of other people, there may be trickle down reactions and interesting play.  Interesting scenes happen all the time in Arm without you seeing them.  The only difference is that in a scene with a thief, some of your stuff makes an appearance.

It's about role play, making it relevant.

[maxid]

It's, at best, tangential to the discussion.  It's premise is that beautiful emotes are good.  Nobody's disputing that.  It has no bearing on whether thieves should give your scan (master) extra chances to detect them by using hemote. 

The beauty of the hemote is irrelevant, and liking/writing good flowery poses doesn't preclude you from not hemoting during theft.

[Hauwke]

They should use hemotes, the code reflects something was done and an emote reflects how it was done. Code does not equal RP in Arm and Emote does not equal RP in Arm. RP in Arm is a combination of the two to tell a story.

[maxid]

nah.

Do what you like.  If staff doesn't like it they'll let you know.  Play your role, whether that includes making sure Hauwke and Cerelum get a dozen chances for their carefully min-max'd scan to see you or not.

[Cabooze]

nah.

Do what you like.  If staff doesn't like it they'll let you know.  Play your role, whether that includes making sure Hauwke and Cerelum get a dozen chances for their carefully min-max'd scan to see you or not.

I can't really get behind this kind of stance, and I find it to be a problematic one at that. Promotion of lacking roleplay isn't good for the game. Despite what some people think, Staff isn't always watching.

[maxid]

I can't really get behind this kind of stance, and I find it to be a problematic one at that. Promotion of lacking roleplay isn't good for the game. Despite what some people think, Staff isn't always watching.

I'm not doing that thankfully.  I'm taking the position that both are fine ways to play depending on the circumstances, and you shouldn't let gdb loudmouths define how you interact with the game. 

My posts have been all about praising big, flowery poses while also mentioning that they're not necessary for one to be 'Rping well'.

[Cerelum]

I'm not sure where this fella got all offended all the sudden.

But my concern with stealth and thievery is that even if you detect it, you have no recourse.

If I know someone is getting stolen from, and I see the act, I can't type kill thief or kill shadow without losing my character to the guards.

There are literally ways for a thief who's detected and wanted to get away by spamming move directions faster than the npc's can subdue/attack him.  While I could be in a more deserted area, one that doesn't trigger the guards when he fails on me, and then attack him and suddenly the whole city knows I attacked someone.

There should be ways to retaliate against thieves that aren't, "Get an arm player." "Get a templar."

If you take the outdoors for instance, you can roll up on a stranger, type kill stranger and murder him, no issues if he doesn't run away or you get him reel-locked.

But in town, the way stealth works, you can literally see someone steal from your friend/girl/randomdude and you can't do shit about it.

That's why I think that getting caught should make you free game to EVERYONE.

Catch a rinther in my pocket, kill rinther, DING.  Problem solved.

[maxid]

It's almost like the lawlessness of the sands makes it harder to exist, whereas within the city you can get away with a grey area of behavior, kept dubiously safe by a brutal and merciless Templarate that doesn't tolerate anyone else exercising power.

It'd be cool if there was a game where the cities had that as a major part of their theme.

[Cerelum]

It's almost like the lawlessness of the sands makes it harder to exist, whereas within the city you can get away with a grey area of behavior, kept dubiously safe by a brutal and merciless Templarate that doesn't tolerate anyone else exercising power.

It'd be cool if there was a game where the cities had that as a major part of their theme.

Yes but tell me, say there are no Templar PC's on.  Or they are doing some Templary thing in their golden tower?

Or the Arm is all asleep.

Is your suggestion to tell the nearest soldier of tektolnes about the theft?

[maxid]

I don't think you understood a single word I typed.

You're not allowed to exercise violence in the city because you're not in the Arm/Templarate.  You're protected, the thief is protected, everyone is protected. 

Authoritarian states monopolize the power to kill.  It's one of the ways that they keep people in line.  If you could kill anyone who looked at you funny, or who you claimed was stealing from you, the area would be lawless.

Thievery/pickpocketing exist within this and exploit the monopoly of power held by the AoD/Templarate because it helps keep them safe.  That's one of the costs of living in a city where that drunk dwarf can't one-hit-two-handed maul your character to death because he's REALLY tired of being called a stump today.

Being minorly stolen from now and then is part of the deal.  If you get stolen from, guess what?  The Templars actually should not give much of a shit.  You are not special.  You are a (likely) a filthy commoner who is whining about a two-sid piece of equipment in a city full of millions.  You thinking your special enough to warrant immediate satisfaction is, honestly, kinda bad Rp. 

You're suffering from the fishbowl effect.  There are like 200 people total that play this game, and 20-60 are on at a time (rough numbers).  This doesn't reflect the vnpc population of Allanak at all.  Templars interact more with PCs because PCs pose at them more, but in reality you're likely intensely unimportant.  You don't have as much recourse when being stolen from.  It is not 2019.  Your character does not live in a society like the one your recognize when you go outside.  Theft, death, and horrific abuses of power are a part of every day life, and that's just how it is in Zalanthas.