An awesome point was brought up, that people should be more receptive in their RP to an invasive thought (one not generated by entering syntax yourself).
unless it's totally something bizarre that the PC would never think, like 'I should dump this mug of ale on the head of that templar', how would your PC automatically know it came from outside?
Psionicists should have more leeway to mess with people without the knee-jerk 'kill everybody who it might possibly be' reaction.
It's a fine line - staff forcing feelings/thoughts onto PCs without a good, solid IC reason (and even then) removes control of the PC by its player. If the player has a solid reason for reacting in X way but staff is unaware of that reason and tries to force Y - it gets murky.
Otherwise, yes, completely agree - go with it, be willing to roll with a scene rather than refuse to "lose".
If random thoughts would be common, I'd be fine with them.
"I wonder what X tastes like with X"
"I should do something productive today"
etc.
Otherwise I'm going to assume everyones a mind worm and go on a genocide.
Quote from: Jihelu on November 15, 2016, 07:34:22 PM
If random thoughts would be common, I'd be fine with them.
"I wonder what X tastes like with X"
"I should do something productive today"
etc.
Otherwise I'm going to assume everyones a mind worm and go on a genocide.
random thoughts happen all day, virtually.
Ath's post:
I once had a thought forced that was so incredibly counter to how my character thought about things, I immediately thought about how strange that thought was because that person was <insert relationship>.
This started a whole 'think' dialogue about whether or not it made sense, which I actually thought was really entertaining.
Is that bad? :P
I believe Random Thoughts is the most popular gdb thread. Case clooooosed. Now there's Shower Thoughts, for situational randomness.
I fully support embracing forced thinks and feels. But I'm going to play devils advocate here because I do have mixed feelings about expectations. If you're on the giving end of it, either as staff or as a player, don't get upset if somebody doesn't play along. For one thing, it's logical to assume that if the one forcing thinks had enough control to make the thought seem native, they'd have the ability to simply control ones actions. As stated, an invasive think could easily be interpreted as foreign, as someone else speaking, inside the head, with the speakers mind-voice. Until the rules say otherwise I have no problem with characters suspecting something is up as long as it's played out similar to the way Armaddict described.
For another thing, some people do play to win and tbh those are the players that keep things really moving. They may never be beloved by staff or more highbrow drama gurus, but they're still out there and they're doing nothing wrong by wanting to control their PC's actions. Since there may be a way to overcome that control through coded commands, and since some players will act that way within the guidelines and rules of the game, you e got to accept it with good graces.
As a former player of psionicists, I suspect one out of five players are capable of reacting to psionics appropriately. Most cases result in the witch hunt mentioned in Ath's reply. This makes it INCREDIBLY frustrating to play psionicists. Nindworms should be able to insinuate themselves in and out of every situation. In reality if you use psi powers on someone, they'll probably just metafuck you for it.
And aggravating when you hear about Lord Templar suspecting someone because they idle alot. Or when the militia kill a psi because a half-giant from across the planet fingered them.
I don't know exactly what caused staff to change their tune. But when I was playing my psi, I was told that playing Psi is hardmode and that I should expect to get metaplayed.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 15, 2016, 08:58:36 PM
Ath's post:
I once had a thought forced that was so incredibly counter to how my character thought about things, I immediately thought about how strange that thought was because that person was <insert relationship>.
This started a whole 'think' dialogue about whether or not it made sense, which I actually thought was really entertaining.
Is that bad? :P
This is great actually. I don't mind players reacting in ways that are unpredictable or even having fun thought-conversations. I just get annoyed when players over react and proclaim they are in the presence of mindworms. Or just barrier-up without reaction.
On staff sending thoughts that inspire action involving someone else...like the "I feel like punching this guy in the face" - I would prefer not to have that happen to me, UNLESS the staff had seen me already complaining about "this guy" in thoughts or conversations, and knew that my PC definitely, absolutely, positively, was someone who WOULD think about punching "this guy" in the face.
Once upon a time there was a mindbender who tried to get my character to think his character was gorgeous, and that she wanted to make out with him. In the meantime, my character couldn't stand his character. So of COURSE when she felt these thoughts, she knew something was up. Because - those thoughts were NOT something that she WOULD have thought on her own.
Another time, someone tried to make her think she was hungry - WHILE she was taking that last bite of food that puts you over the edge of full to "you can't eat anymore." Again, she knew something was wrong, because there was just plain no way she would think that thought on her own.
So - as long as the random thoughts make sense for the situation and the character, I'm ALL for it. I'd love to have a random butt-itch, or feel a bit of dried snot threatening to roll out of my nostril, or feel a foot cramp coming on if I've been standing still for awhile. Or sure - a random "oh jeez what a stupid conversation they're having over there" kind of thing, IF my character is clearly already doing a mental eye-roll about the conversation.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 15, 2016, 10:14:03 PM
Once upon a time there was a mindbender who tried to get my character to think his character was gorgeous, and that she wanted to make out with him. In the meantime, my character couldn't stand his character. So of COURSE when she felt these thoughts, she knew something was up. Because - those thoughts were NOT something that she WOULD have thought on her own.
This shouldn't be done. It could easily be seen as a violation of consent rules. I'll admit that I have done it though. But only with players that I knew were comfortable with it on an ooc level.
A Lirathan once tried to get my character to get it on with a couple of other hunters. I basically just ignored it.
Immediatly assuming it was a psionicist though? That's just irritatingly bad.
Am I the only one who has made my char have a random thought that seemed out of char, then went on a mission to learn to shield their mind better, because they suspected the thought came from a mindbender, when in reality, I needed solo RP fodder?
Quote from: Raptor_Dan on November 16, 2016, 12:48:49 AM
Am I the only one who has made my char have a random thought that seemed out of char, then went on a mission to learn to shield their mind better, because they suspected the thought came from a mindbender, when in reality, I needed solo RP fodder?
I do the same thing but for twinking steal.
*This is a joke I think
Quote from: Jihelu on November 16, 2016, 01:16:37 AM
Quote from: Raptor_Dan on November 16, 2016, 12:48:49 AM
Am I the only one who has made my char have a random thought that seemed out of char, then went on a mission to learn to shield their mind better, because they suspected the thought came from a mindbender, when in reality, I needed solo RP fodder?
I do the same thing but for twinking steal.
*This is a joke I think
What you said, or what I said, because I was totally serious. It's a thing that happens to me IRL, intrusive thoughts, so at one point in time, during my 'let's rp mental illnesses' phase, I had a relatively normal char whom this happened to at different points.
Quote from: Raptor_Dan on November 16, 2016, 01:40:14 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on November 16, 2016, 01:16:37 AM
Quote from: Raptor_Dan on November 16, 2016, 12:48:49 AM
Am I the only one who has made my char have a random thought that seemed out of char, then went on a mission to learn to shield their mind better, because they suspected the thought came from a mindbender, when in reality, I needed solo RP fodder?
I do the same thing but for twinking steal.
*This is a joke I think
What you said, or what I said, because I was totally serious. It's a thing that happens to me IRL, intrusive thoughts, so at one point in time, during my 'let's rp mental illnesses' phase, I had a relatively normal char whom this happened to at different points.
Everyone gets these. But what is interesting, is that coming to the conclusion that someone else is planting thoughts in your mind is a marker for certain types of schizophrenia.
A few years ago I think staff or maybe a mindworm forced thoughts/imagery related to prior traumatic events my character had experienced. It happened at least twice; in each case it was during a time of stress, causing my character to respond with a kind of re-experiencing of the initial horror of the event. This would often slightly worry anyone who might be around her at the time. Because the flashbacks were based in something my character already saw, felt, or knew of, there was never any thought in my character's mind that I was being mindwormed, nor did I as a player think that was the case. As a player I was pretty sure a staff member observing the plot was doing it to add flavor to the scene. It was pretty awesome, whatever the case, and I'm of the opinion that in general such things are awesome.
With a much older criminal character I had who was a thuggish murderer, a mindworm/staffer once popped in and seemed to try and amplify the anger my character was experiencing over some feud he was stuck in. It seemed like there was some intent behind it, though; such as to cause my character to go berserk. The feelings kept getting more and more violent, like "You feel the urge to pound your head into a wall" or something, which wasn't normal for this criminal's behavior. The invasive feelings ended shortly after my character became confused at his steadily building rage, asking himself, "What am I, a fuckin mul all of a sudden?" The experience was weird but didn't make my character go on a mindworm witch-hunt. Instead I think he blamed the booze he had been drinking, or some spice he had done from earlier, and went on with his life.
I am glad to have had the above two experiences and think that in many situations, certain character types and situations really benefit from a little added (subconscious) thought.
Harmless everything you say makes sense, and is something that would cause your character confusion - but -would- be entirely possible without "outside" interference.
In the case of my characters, it went something like this:
My PC: think Man I can't stand Amos, I wish he'd stop asking me for a drink in private.
10 seconds later:
Sudden thought that I didn't type and enter: >You suddenly want to get jiggy with Amos.
my PC's response: "Why'd I even think that? Makes no sense. He's disgusting and I've been hating on him for a month already because he undermined my authority twice in public."
10 seconds later:
Sudden thought that I didn't type and enter: >You really want to jump his bones and be his mate forever.
my PC: Clearly someone is trying to manipulate my mind, because this urge makes zero sense given my absolute loathing of this guy. Plus, he's not good looking, nor is he my type, even if he didn't try to get me demoted twice already now.
Second situation:
eat steak
Oooh good food.
eat steak
>You are no longer hungry.
think But it's goooood..I'll finish it.
taste steak;taste steak;taste steak
score: You are stuffed.
Sudden thought in my character's head: >You're hungry and would like some steak.
my pc: "..."
Hahaha These are priceless responses to my OP question to the Imms I just wanted to clarify that my idea was to poke the minds of idol PC's with flavor, not to insinuate insanity lol
And, on that note.. a joke for all of you.
Unless you've already heard the one about the three sorcerers on the shield wall?
So the first Sorc says yeah last week I pitted my best warrior against my best flutist.. poor thing got three of her fingers cut off! But with a little dust, n, spit, blood n, you know.. I got those fingers reatached and two weeks later she's playing like the wind!
Second Sorc says Pshhh that's nothing.. Last week I had my favorite giant go and fetch me some of those sweet mountain fruits from you know where.. his poor ass fell most of the way down, ripped his leg clean off! BUT, a little sand n, blood n, elf'gasm' gland and yep, got his leg right back on. Two weeks later he can climb like.. well I gave him a rope.
Third Sorc says Shiiiittt... Really? Cause last week I was right out here on this edge with my prized fighter.. tall n blonde and handsome. He was riding his favorite Ox. I remember cause he was staring right at me.. as he rode over the edge, I think he was a Byn at some time.. Anyways! Took me a day an a bit to get down there to find em, and they was just splattered.. just bits n pieces ya know? But ya know.. with a bit a sand, a templars heart, a bunch a blood, a tuft of his blond hair, and a whack of Ox ass...two weeks later, shit he's running for president.
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 02:52:12 AM
Everyone gets these. But what is interesting, is that coming to the conclusion that someone else is planting thoughts in your mind is a marker for certain types of schizophrenia.
[/quote
Heh. You know, I read this whole thread and was like, "Who would REALLY assume that some other person is planting thoughts in their head?"
My first thought was that everyone else is playing characters who are a lot smarter than I am. A random thought in my head, heck, how would I even notice?
I like the examples that are being listed here. Dialogs like this help a lot.
Some of the more.. I suppose I could say 'esoteric' features of the game that touch more mundane aspects of everyday life are sometimes a challenge to roll with. At least in my own experience. Sometimes I have zero idea how to roll with what I've been given by strange, intrusive thoughts and feelings, so every once in a while, I'm forced to ignore it or shrug it off. Not because I don't want t play along, but because of a lack of give and take.
Simple, easy to understand concepts and suggestions are a good way to get someone to listen to what you want in a speedy manner. If you confuse me on what you mean for me to do or your meanings are unclear, it's more likely you're going to freak me out character wise or take me out of my character's head. Where if you simply say, "Touch your nose." Or convince my character of a concept, "Red is now blue." We're now cooking with fire. People could tell my character up and down that the color they are seeing is red, but they would eventually just start thinking they have suddenly gone colorblind, or in a merchant, think they have bad taste. Devastating, but a small change. Slowly build to more invasive things with tiny tweaks and changes. Work up to the big stuff. Tell a story.
I've been guilty of leaping right to the investigative stage, but reading over this thread, I actually see how not doing so could be more fun. I know psions are supposed to be powerful, but remember give and take and that people may not always understand a complex concept right out the gate, so work patiently and you may get more happy, glaze-eyed zombies.
Just my thoughts on it.
I'm legit dirt-league tier when it comes to RP and thinks/feels, so usually Psis leave me alone. I almost always roll with it when they poke around, though, and on almost EVERY one its happened to, assumed I just have a headache.
Because mindworms are things your parents tell you to scare you into doing the right thing. If they -were- real, the Highlord would have dealt with them LONG ago.
I enjoy when Staff enhances thoughts or feels that I am already having. It takes nuance to get right -- I had a PC, Lantry, who was a Byn Sergeant that had flashbacks of a friend, Clay, who died on a mission in a horrible fashion to Gith (Think Scalping, Mutilation). Lantry was the only survivor (because he ran away, but the Byn didn't know that at the time, or didn't do anything about it). This was all a virtual backdrop. However, I had Biographies that detailed all of this that Staff read up on it seemed, and when I had flashbacks using feels/thinks, they would add little accentuations that fell in line with what I was doing, without dictating the scene or changing the feel. Clay might ask him 'Why didn't you save me' or call him a coward for running away. All of these things were already in my Biographies of previous flashbacks, so they fit right in.
Forcing a random thought, or feeling, however, i'm not really that comfortable with. It isn't good Storytelling. Imagine if your GM during a game said 'You feel scared' or 'You think he's disgusting'. You'd probably find that pretty alienating. However, if the GM is creative and presents you with a situation they know will gross you out, or will make you scared or your PC scared, they've done a good job in my book. It takes finesse to figure this out, but forcing someone to feel one way or the other, or to have a random thought or another, can be sort of violating and intrusive to RP, rather than catering to and encouraging RP.
Zalanthans know that Mindworms are real -- They know that they can manipulate your thoughts, make you turn on your lover or best friend, maybe even make you stab a knife into a Templar. But would a normal Joe Shmoe be so vain as to think a mindworm would be messing with them? Probably not. But I wouldn't put it past a high-powered Aide or Agent to think those manipulative 'other thoughts' are not their own, or are a little fishy. A Mindworm has to be careful in these instances, and know their audience so to speak. A PC Psion is (I think) one of the hardest if not the hardest roles to play in ArmageddonMUD. There's no real guide or 'how to', and so much of how you portray it is nuanced and requires Staff conversation to make sure you are on the right track, way moreso than with Defilers/Scary Magickers, etc.
In the past my PC was manipulated for instance in a time when she was angry at PC A cause he did something bad. She'd start an argument, and then suddenly she thought stuff like: "Oh well... maybe he's not so bad. I've been too harsh, etc etc" Not her own thoughts. But I went with it anyway because I find, when there's an argument, there is always that nagging feeling that you might be wrong. Even though you don't want to admit it.
Also with other PC's I just played as if I didn't know what a PSI is, or that these stories were just a fairy tale. PSI's are awesome and should be thrown a bone. People who immediately sense there's some other being in their minds and just KNOW it's a psionicist mostly want to win the game. I find, unless you've been taught thoroughly IC what a PSI can do and how they work, you shouldn't be able to sense there's something weird going on.
There are certain physical discomforts that can happen at any time. That doesn't mean your char immediately knows there's something weird going on.
I just LOVE when PSI's find my PC's mind and toy around. It's great being manipulated and I think it's a huge part of the game.
I've had a couple occasions where the mindworm messing with me has been very off the mark with the thoughts they were making my PC think, just completely missing the mark. It can be a bit jarring when it's completely out of character, like Lizzie's example of being attracted to someone she hated, or Harmless and his criminal having feelings of wanting to bash his head against the wall. I've always gone the same route as Harmless though...thinking/recognizing that this is out of the ordinary and not something I'd ever thought before, then chalking it up to any number of reasons: being tired, stressed out, drunk or spiced etc.
It seems odd to me that anyone would think that the average Zalanthan would never consider that an out-of-the-ordinary thought would be a mindworm or someone manipulating them. I actually asked staff about this sort of thing, because there was a period when it seemed like a lot of PCs were suddenly deciding they were being messed with, and the response was basically "Common knowledge of mindbenders would be vague superstitions. They're bad scary things but no one can really grasp the limits of what trickery they do. Most Zalanthans would never expect their thoughts to be manipulated by an outsider and would obviously consider all thoughts to be their own."
I think I find it more jarring to suddenly have some average Amos claiming there's a mindworm around, because they thought things they wouldn't normally think, than it would be to have those uncharacteristic thoughts myself.
Like Iiyola, I quite like when a mindworm starts messing with me. I try to go with it, with my own thinks and feels that sort of expand on the original manipulation, even if it started with a thought that was very uncharacteristic.
QuoteI quite like when a mindworm starts messing with me. I try to go with it, with my own thinks and feels that sort of expand on the original manipulation, even if it started with a thought that was very uncharacteristic.
I was going to post basically this, so I'm being lazy!
I have no idea how in the world someone would detect that their thoughts weren't genuine so I assume it's not really for most PCs to ever detect. My PC thinks something, I'm going with it even if it's not good for them and even if it's not something I wrote into the console. Giving up control can be a lot of fun in roleplay. I recommend it very highly!
Heheh.
I'm glad the above shows my intuitions were off -- I've probably just been dealing with Descartes' daemon for too long.
When I first started getting thoughts sent to my client that I didn't type out, my initial intuition was that these would somehow 'feel' alien to my character. However, I sent a report in to staff before I did anything about it IG, and they basically said what you'all are saying above: you couldn't feel a difference in the thinking, although the content of the thoughts might lead to the inference that you were being fucked with.
I, too, have had a mindworm try to get my character to bury his axe in the head of a close and trusted friend.
Some mindworms have perhaps misunderstood that injecting a thought is not the same as mind control. I think you'll have much more success getting players to roll with it if you're subtle, clever, and persistent.
I think this and other supernatural abilities with heavy roleplay components (healing magick!!!) need expanded help file entries that define their non-coded capabilities and how to properly roleplay them.
Also, I do kinda like the idea of staff messing with player's heads more often to help "legitimize" intrusive thoughts.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 16, 2016, 11:39:05 AM
I had a PC, Lantry, who was a Byn Sergeant that had flashbacks of a friend, Clay, who died on a mission in a horrible fashion to Gith (Think Scalping, Mutilation). Lantry was the only survivor (because he ran away, but the Byn didn't know that at the time, or didn't do anything about it). This was all a virtual backdrop. However, I had Biographies that detailed all of this that Staff read up on it seemed, and when I had flashbacks using feels/thinks, they would add little accentuations that fell in line with what I was doing, without dictating the scene or changing the feel.
My mindbender was interested in Lantry at the time. I almost sent you a kudos for actually rolling with [that one little thing I did] and not dismissing it, but I wanted to wait until Lantry died and then I forgot. There was one random comment from (the totally unwitting) Kolo that let me know Lantry rolled with it, and God, it was so awesome. Thanks. You rock. 8)
Oh, and your flashbacks were awesome too.
Never had a psion approach me in any way at all, so I don't know how the mechanics work but here's my general principle:
If you want to give a player an ability which has the potential to END someone else's character or story, then it needs to have a saving throw.
If a psion says "I control your mind to make you attack that half giant guard over there" then I'm supposed to just capitulate? What's wrong about me emoting a visible exertion of willpower, trembling a moment, reaching for my axe, then managing to gain control over my own brain and NOT do what you want me to do?
As I understand it, there are either protocols or perhaps even rules against power-emoting. I can't walk up to someone and emote "I grab your weapon out of your hand" and expect that they'll give me their sword.
So am I, as a player, expected that where a psion is involved I'm supposed to just allow this other player to essentially end my character via what appears to be power-emoting?
I'm willing to play along to a certain extent, but if I wait days on a special app and I've got a good thing going and I'm enjoying the roleplay of a long-lived character, I'll be damned if I'm just going to throw that away because someone throws an echo my way. If it's like Marauder Moe describes as just injecting a thought, then hey, let's have some roleplay, but if it's expected I should immediately become a mind-controlled zombie then there ought to be a saving throw attached to it.
Miradus,
Nobody is saying that if someone makes you think "I'm going to punch that HG soldier in the face" that you have to follow through with it specifically. Although, if you do, super-kudos.
The problem is that people get a think that they didn't type in, and immediately assume "there's a mind-worm" and go fucking BALLISTIC like someone stole 20 coins from their inventory.
Just like in the real world, you can think or feel like stabbing someone in the face, you don't. You still have control over your behaviors, but it can be hard to wrestle that thought down, or reason why its not a good idea.
Thanks for clarifying, Riev. This thread is all over the place and opinions are flying. Since I've never seen the mechanics of it going on (not important enough to be mindwormed) it doesn't seem clear to me what people expect.
Still doesn't. I know what RIEV expects now, but this thread has the usual fuzziness where half the players think they're playing a MUSH and the others a MUD. My suspicion is that when they have the power they want it to be a mush and when the power is against them they want it to be a mud. :)
I've been the recipient of a handful of staff interactions and they were definitely of the "Here's what just happened, you decide what to do." The decision was left to me to decide what my character would do and to either benefit from or suffer from the consequences.
I'd expect that same sort of freedom from other players as well.
Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. ::)
I need to read up on this whole thread, but I want to say thank you for taking this constructively. I have some good stuff to add, just going to check my boundaries first.
As for the staff forcing thoughts, I feel it's good for when you want to add to the scene. There was a case where someone murdered another character, and their character was going nuts with guilt and other feelings and thoughts. So I decided to do this "You feel the eyes of <victim> upon you." or it was something like this, I could have used an echo to make it look like "You seem to catch the eyes of <victim> looking upon you." Either way, I forced them to "see" something. This added to the scene.
I know a few of you have put in responses for me, I'll see about getting back to them here in a bit.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 15, 2016, 08:58:36 PM
Ath's post:
I once had a thought forced that was so incredibly counter to how my character thought about things, I immediately thought about how strange that thought was because that person was <insert relationship>.
This started a whole 'think' dialogue about whether or not it made sense, which I actually thought was really entertaining.
Is that bad? :P
I typically suggest confusion... your mind rules you. I mean, could you be going crazy? Does a Schizophrenic think they are wrong in their way of thinking and then acting upon it? I mean, the mind is a hard are to define, we're getting into psychology here and we're just a role playing game. You're going to role play your character how you wish, but the mind comes up with some of the strangest thoughts... you may not act on them always, but you will think it.
Hmmm, I wonder what popcorn with jelly tastes like? Does that mean I'm going to go eat popcorn with jelly on it? Maybe...
Man, I should just jump into this pit, my life is horrible. Maybe I will jump into the pit because my character has been depressed as of late and the suicidal thoughts just push him over the edge. Maybe I'm a happy go lucky character that has this suicidal though and then goes into a deep depression because my fragile mind thought such a bad thing, but i don't jump in.
Either way, the mind will have odd thoughts, we all know this. In most cases people will justify in their own mind why they thought something.
Altogether, I thought it was a neat scene, because they were manipulating in such a way that it was my character having an internal dialogue about what they were feeling and why, which got to explain more of my character to them.
Strangely, they didn't use that to continue trying to influence me. I often wondered what the actual motivation or end goal was for it, or whether they were just wanting some psi-interaction.
It went along the lines of "This person is evil. You should leave them."
"I've never really thought about leaving before. They take good care of me, and I enjoy taking care of them. Why should I leave?"
"But what makes me think they're actually taking care of me?"
So on and so forth. It was brief, but neat. I had kind of expected it to be a more constant thing, and hopefully I didn't discourage further attempts just by not going with it immediately.
I do think it's a little jarring, and tempting to resist sharing the control of your character. I don't blame staff for not wanting to do it when players can often react poorly (myself included). But if you guys see the chance to jab in a reminder or something like that, and allow the sort of internal-conflict dialogue as above with that injected thought, it might even make you a contributing factor to character development. *shrug*
Also, I don't see the question asked, and I think it would be healthy to get some different perspectives on it:
What -should- reveal someone as a psionicist? We've talked about how a lot of subtle things tend to give them away which is bad, even if it doesn't give away their identity. But what is the scale of subtlety? Which echoes are the ones that would make your character's eyes suddenly bug out in realization that they've been fucked with? Are there any?
Edited to add: Myself, I go largely off of code, as per usual. While subtle echoes are exactly that...when I have the code essentially telling me over and over that I'm feeling something off, or outright revealing an sdesc...that is specifically out of the norm and the danger of failure of those skills being used. I consider that psionicist at the mercy of the player; they could be the crowd turning away from the failed steal attempt, or they could be the crowd that calls the soldier.
I've played a wide spectrum of PCs in regards to how knowledgeable they are about the "dark side" of Zalanthas.
The most fun I've ever had is playing people who relentlessly assume there's a mundane explanation for everything.
Only when faced with very odd stuff in repeated doses or with flat-out impossibilities do they go "huh, something is strange here."
Take that for what you will.
I still think staff should be careful not to take the reins away from PCs; I'll use a loosely paraphrased and admittedly rare example:
A magical creature is here.
You are here.
Someone else is here.
You feel rage overcome you. (forced staff echo)
HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage.
A better echo would have been:
Rage emanates from a magical creature and pounds against your senses.
Then I could decide whether my character felt that rage or not, and how much of it, and react accordingly.
"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."
In what situation would this ever happen.
Except due to magick.
Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.
So I have been able to get the okay to post this. This is an article that I wrote a few months ago as there was a rather large discussion on this topic. The reason why? Because of the unrealistic response that was made to a Psion affecting someones mind. Think of this as one of the helpfiles that go over role playing of a specific race.
I'm still reviewing this, but I welcome you all to read it and provide constructive feedback if you'd like. We will be working up a final draft for it (this isn't final at all), and it will then get created into a helpfile.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HPtmmTi1RgMdOJO1NhvjjevHNLVV8TQFNBXi98L2PtI/edit?usp=sharing
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 03:05:29 PM
Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. ::)
Be nice. This can be said for quite a few, even potentially you.
Quote from: Ath on November 16, 2016, 04:18:17 PM
So I have been able to get the okay to post this. This is an article that I wrote a few months ago as there was a rather large discussion on this topic. The reason why? Because of the unrealistic response that was made to a Psion affecting someones mind. Think of this as one of the helpfiles that go over role playing of a specific race.
I'm still reviewing this, but I welcome you all to read it and provide constructive feedback if you'd like. We will be working up a final draft for it (this isn't final at all), and it will then get created into a helpfile.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HPtmmTi1RgMdOJO1NhvjjevHNLVV8TQFNBXi98L2PtI/edit?usp=sharing
Good read.
I think it would be good for a helpfile.
I do have a question though.
I recall one of my friends saying that staff told him a psion was 'hard mode' and that people wouldn't respond and things like that. Is that still going to be allowed? Would it be right to player complaint people who just refuse to react to psionic abilities or immediately hunt for you/meta you down?
It's kinda funny watching the doc and seeing all the Anon animals showing up. I'm glad to hear you like it, Jihelu. I'm pretty passionate on this topic because I see so many VERY well played Psions get screwed over because of bad role play. I cannot even count the amount of times I've seen a Psion try to do something very simple... maybe put a feeling like scratching their nose, and then you know what happens... nothing. The affected player does nothing. No thought, no feel, not even a simple emote where they scratch their nose. They ignore it.
It could use some editorial "tightening up" but the spirit is there. I appreciate how hard it is to say "how to react" when you can't even specifically mention what might happen that you'd react TO.
Quote from: Ath on November 16, 2016, 04:24:17 PM
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 03:05:29 PM
Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. ::)
Be nice. This can be said for quite a few, even potentially you.
I'm not justifying myself. But I wish threads like this would translate into the game.
But thank you for the document, Ath. It's very encouraging that staff are finally moving on this issue. Hammering away at you guys about it hasn't been the most positive experience but it does at least make me feel listened to.
I would say though, that I think there are more problems with psionicists. Including outdated documentation and weird and unexpected code effects. I'd be happy to correspond regarding some of the other issues facing psionicists.
Quote from: Jihelu on November 16, 2016, 04:16:29 PM
"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."
In what situation would this ever happen.
Except due to magick.
Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.
Bolded the relevant part. Yes, it is a unique situation but it goes to show that staff forced feelings/thoughts can be a minefield.
Quote from: Delirium on November 16, 2016, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on November 16, 2016, 04:16:29 PM
"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."
In what situation would this ever happen.
Except due to magick.
Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.
Bolded the relevant part. Yes, it is a unique situation but it goes to show that staff forced feelings/thoughts can be a minefield.
You don't have to react predictably. But you have to react in a way that doesn't insist on someone meddling with your mind.
Here are some possibilities:
You are clearly conflicted about your feelings and that induces further rage.
You stay calm despite exterior conditions
You become confused and possibly ill as a result of the internal conflict. *barf*
Rage and calm cancel each other out and perhaps a third emotion takes sway. Such as fear or disgust?
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 04:31:54 PM
Quote from: Ath on November 16, 2016, 04:24:17 PM
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 03:05:29 PM
Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. ::)
Be nice. This can be said for quite a few, even potentially you.
I'm not justifying myself. But I wish threads like this would translate into the game.
But thank you for the document, Ath. It's very encouraging that staff are finally moving on this issue. Hammering away at you guys about it hasn't been the most positive experience but it does at least make me feel listened to.
I would say though, that I think there are more problems with psionicists. Including outdated documentation and weird and unexpected code effects. I'd be happy to correspond regarding some of the other issues facing psionicists.
I know I'm going to do whatever I can to improve things... I'm no coder and there is so much we can "improve" in this game it's hard to narrow down a single thing. If you feel the docs our outdated though, send in a request with examples if you could and we can take a look at it. Documentation/Help Files is an easier area to fix than most others.
Quote from: Riev on November 16, 2016, 04:30:02 PM
It could use some editorial "tightening up" but the spirit is there. I appreciate how hard it is to say "how to react" when you can't even specifically mention what might happen that you'd react TO.
Yeah, I'd be up for having someone volunteer to edit it if they'd like. I'm no editor, I just spout out what comes to mind. Send in a Question/Request to one of the GMH Clans, Subject: Ath - Psion Helpfile Editing, if you are interested in helping.
^^
This is what I meant by "your thoughts and feelings are one thing, your actions are another". If you, as a player, suspect a staff/Psi is interacting with you, I say use thoughts and feelings and have a battle of internal strife. Feeling like you want to do something, and doing it, are completely different.
I've done "feel like pushing that fat fuck down the stairs" a few times before. Never did it, regrettably.
Jingo, I agree, that quote is a bit out of context with my original post.
Which is that forced feelings/thoughts may not always be realistic to the situation and should be offered carefully.
If it's a psionicist or XYZ creature, that is one thing, but phrasing is important in the echo itself to help make the scene more fluid.
As it is, I froze up due to the directly conflicting emotions - and ended up just having my character do just that. Complete with headclutch.
But it made the scene awkwardly written for me, so I'm pushing for staff / psionicists to consider how their echos are phrased.
A little can go a long way into making the scene more of a collaborative effort instead of a poweremote battle.
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 04:39:37 PM
Quote from: Delirium on November 16, 2016, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on November 16, 2016, 04:16:29 PM
"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."
In what situation would this ever happen.
Except due to magick.
Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.
Bolded the relevant part. Yes, it is a unique situation but it goes to show that staff forced feelings/thoughts can be a minefield.
You don't have to react predictably. But you have to react in a way that doesn't insist on someone meddling with your mind.
Here are some possibilities:
You are clearly conflicted about your feelings and that induces further rage.
You stay calm despite exterior conditions
You become confused and possibly ill as a result of the internal conflict. *barf*
Rage and calm cancel each other out and perhaps a third emotion takes sway. Such as fear or disgust?
I had a case like this:
You feel a shiver in your spine (or something).
[then a few seconds later]
You didn't feel that.
I wasn't -quite- sure how to deal with that. But the reason I bring it up: you could just do: feel calm rather than rage, in fact.
I'd like to see more feels/thinks from staff/psions/whomever. I tend to not use think/feel that often unless I know I have an audience.
Quote from: nauta on November 16, 2016, 04:47:01 PM
I had a case like this:
You feel a shiver in your spine (or something).
[then a few seconds later]
You didn't feel that.
Having been victim to this a couple times, take it into consideration, future Psis. You can't just say "You didn't see that" or something of that nature. Play with it a bit. Even a "You think: Am I cold right now?" to play it off, or something.
I've gotten the "You feel it was probably nothing" a number of times, and I've had to say "Yup, probably was nothing. La de da da da".
I'd still like to hear what exactly 'outs' a psionicist under these conditions, because the inference being picked up by me is that essentially, due to some or most reacting melodramatically and pre-emptively, that none of us should ever assume we can ever figure it out. The general mood is that even if they fail the psionic skill, it shouldn't out them...is that accurate, or am I right in saying that a critical fail should indeed have the chance of outing them, or that consistent lack of regard for the subtlety under which a mindbender works should start to steer things their way?
It's a powerful role when done correctly. If someone takes the time to eavesdrop and learn on characters to correctly influence them, then they can essentially manipulate anyone. My qualm comes with someone who essentially types in an echo that shows a complete lack of regard for the character they're influencing and then getting butthurt when it doesn't get 100% accepted. I don't mean that it's grounds to completely ignore it, but if you take a super loyal character and decide to make them feel like doing a betrayal act out of the blue, you should probably expect some serious pushback. Meanwhile, if you eavesdrop, and find their little things that they pick at, and aren't satisfied with, and make those things irritate them more over time, and implant those thoughts into events where they're unrelated...you are now in the power position of a psionicist.
I always regarded it as a high-karma role because of -that- potential. Not because they could just inject thoughts willy-nilly and the expectation was for it to be utterly adhered to. Also, I've never regarded them as utterly shielded from passive discovery either...we've had a lot of things in Armageddon that were referred to as 'like the boogie men', and I've never seen any case of enforcement over those who knew IC of the existence based solely off of new clans being opened, etc.
If you're doing it well, I'm going to play right along with it. If you're doing it poorly, I'm going to have the affect happen but make the pushback that I find utterly reasonable. And if the skillcheck says you fail and I notice something wrong, I'll notice something's wrong (though that jump to being wormed is a big one that I don't usually make unless there's other IC rumor of a worm, and then it's usually a -worry- rather than a certainty). If the skillcheck gives me your sdesc, I consider that the physics of the game telling me you just got -caught-, son.
Quote from: Delirium on November 16, 2016, 04:45:51 PM
Jingo, I agree, that quote is a bit out of context with my original post.
Which is that forced feelings/thoughts may not always be realistic to the situation and should be offered carefully.
If it's a psionicist or XYZ creature, that is one thing, but phrasing is important in the echo itself to help make the scene more fluid.
As it is, I froze up due to the directly conflicting emotions - and ended up just having my character do just that. Complete with headclutch.
But it made the scene awkwardly written for me, so I'm pushing for staff / psionicists to consider how their echos are phrased.
A little can go a long way into making the scene more of a collaborative effort instead of a poweremote battle.
You can't assume that a psion has complete information. In fact, they're probably not even privy to any information except for maybe a handful of thoughts and feels. So disconnect is going to happen. I remember in a similar situation, I was just trying to keep someone (I don't know who or why) from getting killed so I made the decision to attempt to flush them into a state of calm. And while I admit it was against the grain, the fact that they immediately put up a barrier was extremely disappointing.
I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.
Quote from: 650Booger on November 16, 2016, 05:22:34 PM
I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.
It is actually the best way to get a psionicist player's attention. For good or ill.
Oh, I agree. Like I said, it can be akin to the vNPC's who decide or don't decide to call soldiers. It's something to notice, or it's not.
I haven't been deeply involved with a bender in a loooong time, so this is largely a moot point for me. I don't think I've been the focus of one for ages.
But I'm just trying to clarify, because what's been presented has thusfar seemed very one-sided and quick to demonize, and I want to insure that there are indeed instances where things can be 'found out'. And I don't think everyone being told that a critical fail should just be given a pass is exactly healthy, either.
I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of earth trembling. I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of temperature drops. I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of feeling hands in my pockets. I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of strange touches through the Way...until now. And this is very akin to what I've been talking about, where the code is purposely designed to give me information that I'm apparently supposed to ignore, which makes the design of it odd.
I think most of it should be reacted to, but dismissed, but they are there to urge care in the psionicist and the ever-present knowledge that they -can- be caught if they're not being careful. Someone being targeted and repeatedly noticing these 'off' things is legitimately obligated to start feeling some concern and start the beginnings of investigation...which may lead to the need to end their investigation via whatever means you have.
Again, this understanding was why it's high-karma in my head, not because they're super-powerful who can instantly make things happen exactly as they want because they type in a think for you. They are expected to use these things in a certain way that is simply easier to disburse to more trusted players.
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 05:23:31 PM
Quote from: 650Booger on November 16, 2016, 05:22:34 PM
I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.
It is actually the best way to get a psionicist player's attention. For good or ill.
I also don't think or feel enough, but will usually do so once I know there's an audience, like nauta said.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 16, 2016, 05:24:39 PM
Oh, I agree. Like I said, it can be akin to the vNPC's who decide or don't decide to call soldiers. It's something to notice, or it's not.
I haven't been deeply involved with a bender in a loooong time, so this is largely a moot point for me. I don't think I've been the focus of one for ages.
But I'm just trying to clarify, because what's been presented has thusfar seemed very one-sided and quick to demonize, and I want to insure that there are indeed instances where things can be 'found out'. And I don't think everyone being told that a critical fail should just be given a pass is exactly healthy, either.
I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of earth trembling. I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of temperature drops. I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of feeling hands in my pockets. I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of strange touches through the Way...until now. And this is very akin to what I've been talking about, where the code is purposely designed to give me information that I'm apparently supposed to ignore, which makes the design of it odd.
I think most of it should be reacted to, but dismissed, but they are there to urge care in the psionicist and the ever-present knowledge that they -can- be caught if they're not being careful. Someone being targeted and repeatedly noticing these 'off' things is legitimately obligated to start feeling some concern and start the beginnings of investigation...which may lead to the need to end their investigation via whatever means you have.
Again, this understanding was why it's high-karma in my head, not because they're super-powerful who can instantly make things happen exactly as they want because they type in a think for you. They are expected to use these things in a certain way that is simply easier to disburse to more trusted players.
Quote from: Jingo on November 16, 2016, 05:23:31 PM
Quote from: 650Booger on November 16, 2016, 05:22:34 PM
I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.
It is actually the best way to get a psionicist player's attention. For good or ill.
I also don't think or feel enough, but will usually do so once I know there's an audience, like nauta said.
I think a fair way to know if something is up, is to use a barrier. Barriers won't stop psi powers. But they're a good way to alert a player that they're being tampered with.
This is how I would deal with it.
Your barrier drops unexpectedly.
Your mind whirls and you can't seem to walk straight.
Soon after you have an inescapable urge to do X.
I would say that taken apart, none of those things should elicit suspicion. But together they might.
I dislike the use of barrier as a mindbender diagnostic, but would agree that if you had your barrier up for some other reason and that happened, yes.
Mostly, I'm not looking to argue -too- hard on it, as much as soften what I perceive as kind of an absolute stance on it. Basically to make room for healthy, thought-out suspicions, but not for the instantaneous 'huge jump' of 'HOLY SHIT THAT'S A MINDBENDER ECHO!' or 'HEY, I DIDN'T TYPE THAT! TIME FOR MY CHARACTER TO REALIZE THEY'RE BEING BENDED WITH FIVE MINUTES OF THINKS.'
Agreed in spirit, picking at semantics to clarify the messages.
Quote from: 650Booger on November 16, 2016, 05:22:34 PM
I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.
Some of the most fun experiences I've had in this game was because of a Psion and yes, this does get their attention. Good reactive players are like crack for a Psion.
I will give one of my favorite stories that has to do with one of my characters and a Psion. I was playing Corporal Zant of the AoD. One of his lovers was a Psion, Zant never knew at all. Zant's raise to Corporal was because he was so good at finding criminals, notably a Nilazi and a rival of this Psions, another Psion. He just thought the girl was really good at gathering information, she was a whore after all. Zant would get these people with a Templar at the time that he was loyal to. OOC I knew they had to be a Psion (I think I may have been staff at the time, I can't remember), but I played into it. Sometimes my thoughts and feelings were manipulated, but it fit so well into Zant's asshole nature.
This was one of my most fun characters, he was corrupt, he was being manipulated, but at the same time though he could have gotten away with murder in the open because the Templar loved him so much for making him look good. All because of this amazing Psion character.
In any case, I appreciate if any and all read up on the doc and let me know what you think. It's appreciate it. So far I am happy to see the positive feedback.
I thought it read well.
In the past I've been guilty of being overly reactive, largely due to a lack of documentation and discussion on the topic, and could stand to improve in that area.
So... any psions who might be able to guess who I'm playing, I volunteer as tribute. >.>
In all seriousness, it is good that it touches upon matters like that which are too sekrit to talk about much on the forums under normal circumstance because I'm betting I'm not the only one who learned to be extremely reactive mostly because of other people their pcs know IG taking a similar tack and not having docs to fall back on which counter it.
I think it would be a neat/interesting solution if there were a flag you could turn on to simply not get echoes from failed psionics (from the whole fool the player/fool the character line of reasoning). While it's more likely to make me think/feel when I get an echo that seems psionic in nature (ones which I assume are only due to a failure, though I could be wrong), I understand how some people might freeze up under a similar circumstance.
I would go so far as to suggest that it should be tacked onto the 'what you know' helps on where you're from, so that people who are new or don't think to look for it, see it and know what the default 'acceptable' level of reaction/interaction is. It might also be helpful to include an example or two when editing it down.
How I feel:
A psion who makes you feel/think/do something that doesnt make sense?
Inner emotions fight over it and you probably don't do it.
A psion who makes you feel/think/do something in a way you, your character, would do it because of proper research/paying attention?
Go for it without a second thought.
Quote from: Jihelu on November 16, 2016, 09:18:01 PM
How I feel:
A psion who makes you feel/think/do something that doesnt make sense?
Inner emotions fight over it and you probably don't do it.
A psion who makes you feel/think/do something in a way you, your character, would do it because of proper research/paying attention?
Go for it without a second thought.
Agreed. However my point was:
A psion who makes you think/feel/do something that is 100% opposite and contrary to what your character might ever think/feel/do in that particular circumstance?
Assume it's a mindbender who isn't nearly as clever as he thinks he is, and RP out that assumption.
You don't even necessarily know WHO the mindbender is. You just know it is one, because no way, no how, would your character have ever come up with that thought/feel/action without outside intervention.
Wait a minute.
My last post said I felt something.
Mind bender confirmed.
I'm so funny
I feel like
"Oh I just thought something really weird/stupid" and immediately going "It's a mind bender" Is one of those
"It only happens sometimes" things. Like if you actually know about them.
If you don't I could see it just as being "That was really stupid of me to think"
Assuming something you think is a mindbender implies you know what they can do/know they actually exist/know they can harm you inside the GLORIOUS HIGHLORDS CITY.
Even if the thought your character has is 100% uncharacteristic, I still don't think most PCs should be assuming it is a psion.
I always assume its a mindworm when I get a thought that isn't put in by me, otherwise I think I would lose my shit.
Quote from: manipura on November 16, 2016, 10:16:10 PM
Even if the thought your character has is 100% uncharacteristic, I still don't think most PCs should be assuming it is a psion.
I agree, I'm speaking specifically about the non-successes and non-normals. The light touches, the strange jitters. I'm under the assumption that they are specifically Way-Oriented in nature, because I don't know what a 'light touch' on your mind feels like aside from another Way-feeling. And even those, I think, are just oddities, until such a time as they are piling up, when they may become far-fetched worries, etc.
Again, I think it takes a long term consistency to start having it breach the realm of 'I think I might be going crazy, because I think someone else is messing with my head.'
Either that or a critical fail after those events are happening. Mostly, I don't think they are under a shroud of protection because they work through the way. I just think they're safer than we let them be -right now-, with the extreme, immediate conclusions.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 16, 2016, 10:23:10 PM
Quote from: manipura on November 16, 2016, 10:16:10 PM
Even if the thought your character has is 100% uncharacteristic, I still don't think most PCs should be assuming it is a psion.
I agree, I'm speaking specifically about the non-successes and non-normals. The light touches, the strange jitters. I'm under the assumption that they are specifically Way-Oriented in nature, because I don't know what a 'light touch' on your mind feels like aside from another Way-feeling. And even those, I think, are just oddities, until such a time as they are piling up, when they may become far-fetched worries, etc.
Again, I think it takes a long term consistency to start having it breach the realm of 'I think I might be going crazy, because I think someone else is messing with my head.'
Either that or a critical fail after those events are happening. Mostly, I don't think they are under a shroud of protection because they work through the way. I just think they're safer than we let them be -right now-, with the extreme, immediate conclusions.
Oh, that wasn't in response to successes and fails and anything like that, but specifically responding to:
Quote from: Lizzie on November 16, 2016, 10:00:18 PM
A psion who makes you think/feel/do something that is 100% opposite and contrary to what your character might ever think/feel/do in that particular circumstance?
Assume it's a mindbender who isn't nearly as clever as he thinks he is, and RP out that assumption.
I should have used quotes in the first response. :)
I think there are lots of excuses you can come up with to explain why your PC is having a completely backward thought, ranging from drank too much to too many hits on the head during sparring to sleep deprivation to literally starting to go crazy (if it's been something you've experienced frequently). Unless your character has had someone with knowledge of these things (which I'm thinking is a select handful of people) then I don't think they should even be considering it as an explanation.
Ah. Yes. Agreed.
If the skill succeeds, it succeeds. The oddity of it should be roleplayed around, but not treated as if it was a thief who just nicked your blade with watch on. They succeeded on it. The same way I say failures should be something that can be used, successes should be something where you take into account that it was a -success-.
Ideally, I'd like psionicists to learn more so that the force-thinks are more relevant and fit in, but I really can't expect that unless they let me know they're monitoring in the first place so that I can give them some thinks to go off of.
I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?
Quote from: solera on November 17, 2016, 01:44:48 AM
I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?
It sort of fits the Navajo regard for witchcraft (1950's terminology, but by modern nomenclature 'black magic')...To say someone 'knows' something of witchcraft, or that they might know a witch, is an offensive accusation that they themselves are a witch. Surely, to know of a witch, or to know someone who casts 'black magic', or anything about witchcraft or its trappings, means you yourself are a witch.
So to say 'A Mindbender was in my head! I swear it!' should almost be falling on your own sword. At least, if I were a dumb commoner, I wouldn't go around blabbing that there's a mind worm in my head.
Quote from: a french mans shirt on November 16, 2016, 10:18:32 PM
I always assume its a mindworm when I get a thought that isn't put in by me, otherwise I think I would lose my shit.
Now, if I were drunk one night or something and not responding to a situation appropriately, then yes, staff should probably be giving me a think.
Do people really start mindworm witchhunts based on the fact that one does a thing in your mind, probably honestly just to git gud? I suppose if you're the only noble during your playtime and you're bored out of your mind with nothing better to do.
I would try to OOCly give criminals/rogues/benders a chance; in the form of not being sure what they look like after you've met them with their hood up and things like that. They've got it rough as it is, always being hunted by people who literally don't have anything else to do due to the game not being perfect.
Quote from: solera on November 17, 2016, 01:44:48 AM
I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?
No, because rape is against the OOC rules of the game. Being mindbent is not. Let's not go there, okay?
Quote from: Lizzie on November 17, 2016, 08:18:13 AM
Quote from: solera on November 17, 2016, 01:44:48 AM
I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?
No, because rape is against the OOC rules of the game. Being mindbent is not. Let's not go there, okay?
I have to believe you misunderstood here because bringing up that game rule when another player makes a comparison for the purpose of discussion on the gdb seems unnecessary. I for one love Solera's approach and I've seen something similar played out by somebody that figured out they'd been bent. Deep, lasting shame and a feeling of violation. A pain and an impotent anger that will never go away, even if you find the culprit. It was the best.
One of the problems that causes a lot of the complaints here is the skill tree. That and, yes, it's hard mode. Player reactions to fail echoes is like 25% of the cause. Even so, I stand with Armaddict on reacting to the fails. For intrusive thoughts, to each his own. Please don't complain about people that don't play up to your standards.
Quote from: Bahliker on November 17, 2016, 08:49:22 AMPlayer reactions to fail echoes is like 25% of the cause. Even so, I stand with Armaddict on reacting to the fails. For intrusive thoughts, to each his own. Please don't complain about people that don't play up to your standards.
And yet, in the same paragraph, you did exactly that. I'll react to fail echoes however it makes sense for my character to react to them, at any given moment, given the circumstances. If you observe a reaction in game that you feel is inappropriate, then send a player complaint.
QuoteDo people really start mindworm witchhunts based on the fact that one does a thing in your mind, probably honestly just to git gud?
(http://www.relatably.com/m/img/nonchalant-memes/f5aa7ddb97b8a7a40eb15672ac65e85a8ad28ea750d604192eefdb983be5e7bf.jpg)
Quote from: Bahliker on November 17, 2016, 08:49:22 AM
One of the problems that causes a lot of the complaints here is the skill tree. That and, yes, it's hard mode. Player reactions to fail echoes is like 25% of the cause. Even so, I stand with Armaddict on reacting to the fails. For intrusive thoughts, to each his own. Please don't complain about people that don't play up to your standards.
It's really only hard mode if you play it as intended. It's easy enough to do if you figure out how to meta it. And that's what an attitude like this is asking for.
Oh. And yes. I will complain. I will complain loudly.
QuoteAnd that's what an attitude like this is asking for.
This isn't attitude. This is literally the game world telling the recipient what information they have. As noted, they should treat it for what it is, but it -is- a note that something out of the ordinary is felt. The difference is that we're agreeing that the jump from 'Hmm, that felt funny.' to 'I must have a mindworm in my head' is a fantastic leap, but when you say things like this you give me impression that you don't think anyone should ever take action based off of echoes we're given, regardless of whether you're actually succeeding or failing.
I don't go around playing thieves and saying that I have no choice but to meta because everyone is arbitrarily deciding that when they see the information given from a critical fail they never take into account that they should doubt the information the game gave them. That seems to be what you're insisting should happen here.
This is a MUD. Things are skill based and written in code. If critical fails shouldn't reveal the mindbender, or rather, give the opportunity for the revelation, then the game shouldn't have any reason to provide that information. Players can still play around it as desired, but this is not a risk-free role where you prance happily through people's brains and never have to worry about failure. You're one of the most hunted creatures in the Known, just like sorcery. People -do- know mindbenders exist, they just don't assume every thought in their head is planted by one. But a critical failure is the beginnings of something being -known- to be wrong, by design of the game.
This can be modified as seeing fit, but I'm not going to ignore the game poking at me and giving me information about things just because you like when people let you continue to be mindbender. I will play along with successes to the best of my ability, insofar as there isn't an expectation that I'll suddenly drop all prior character trends because you supplanted a thought; I'll have the thought, fit it into the current mindset, and if things mesh well, you may very well influence real actions, and I will play along with failures the same way I do any other 'hidden' skill failure in the game.
Essentially, you seem to feel jipped by skill failure, rather than viewing it as an integral part of the MUD, where I'm saying skill successes should definitely be treated as successes and not lead to the rooting out of a psionicist, but failures should also be treated like failures and reacted to in a sensible way. If that leads to you making the threat that you need to meta and twink it out for the role to be worth it to you, then so be it, but keep in mind the ability to resist that urge and play the way you have been might very well be the reason you get to play them.
I think I said last time this came up that if you find yourself in that position it is more natural to question yourself than suspect an outside influence.
That said I've made bad decisions in real time.
Last year (more than a year ago) my pc had issues with an elf. First pc elf I came across I typed kill elf.
Seconds later I realized I was an asshole. That's a moronic way to play, but sometimes you just react. I imagine that's what happened to many people when suddenly encountering a foreign thought in their head. Sad but true, we all screw up occasionally.
Having screwed up though we should own it and do better, not justify and defend.
Next time we get a random thought, hopefully we'll all roll with it, like good players.
Quote from: Barzalene on November 17, 2016, 10:43:20 AM
I think I said last time this came up that if you find yourself in that position it is more natural to question yourself than suspect an outside influence.
That said I've made bad decisions in real time.
Last year (more than a year ago) my pc had issues with an elf. First pc elf I came across I typed kill elf.
Seconds later I realized I was an asshole. That's a moronic way to play, but sometimes you just react. I imagine that's what happened to many people when suddenly encountering a foreign thought in their head. Sad but true, we all screw up occasionally.
Having screwed up though we should own it and do better, not justify and defend.
Next time we get a random thought, hopefully we'll all roll with it, like good players.
Yes, and as pointed out earlier in the thread, if we all use think/feel more, the 'foreign thought' will appear less foreign. I don't always get into a flow where I use think/feel often, but on PCs that I do, I find that a mindworm's 'suggestion' appears much less out of the blue. It may be in conflict with an emotion my PC is having, but I will typify that as internal struggle. Are people ever 100% certain about their actions? When I have trouble at work, I oscillate wildly between anger, acceptance, graciousness, humility, anger, vendetta, and so on. Emotions are fickle things that come and go quickly. So are thoughts. I have a million thoughts a day, and not all of them make sense or are in sequence.
So again -- I think people who are in a position to expect a mindworm, or are given reason to believe that a mindworm is in their heads, may jump to conclusions. They might not even be right. But most people? The real 'salt of the earth'? I doubt they would readily jump to that conclusion for reasons I mentioned earlier. When a regular Joe Amos says "I gots Mindworms in my head", it draws suspicion and doubt on to them, possibly even more than suspicion. If it doesn't, it should. I've seen people band together to hunt down a Mindworm, just because it's something to do.
We should really assess Mindworms as we assess Magickers -- Outside of the code. Yes, there are coded abilities. Yes -- They are capable of X Y Z, and veterans or people with the know how can determine the plateaus of these abilities. But we should remember that ArmageddonMUD isn't a H&S. There is code that should be acknowledged (As Armaddict points out in a post elsewhere). This isn't a MUSH, either. But there is finesse here that requires our imaginations and suspense of our meta-knowledge of the game and its code.
A Mindworm should be a terrifying thing to reveal, and to be the revealer may imply illicit knowledge of psionics. If they can read your thoughts and emotions, how will they not know that you were the one that fingered them? Would you be able to sleep at night, or without a knife under your pillow? Akin to Magick, we know that people have X Spells, but we also imagine that they might be able to curse us by wiggling their fingers at us. Zalanthans are and should be a superstitious ignorant people. I think we sometimes forget that in the face of 'winning'.
I should have said "only" 25%. It's not a complaint, more of a call to take a hard look at the other 75%, or at least a part of it. I guess in retrospect this doesn't add anything to this discussion. Too much of a derail, since only Ath and any of you secretly on staff are in a position to discuss it, and only a few others even know what I mean. Details would probably get me moderated.
I guess you're both right, I shouldn't fuss if people want to complain. That's my own M.O. and I shouldn't try to impose it on anyone. I've only once, to my knowledge, seen behavior that I thought really warranted staff intervention. It was before the request system. I could only wish all and hope for the best, and in my mind those were the golden years. So I'm comfortable taking that statement back.
Coming back around to the topic, it looks like people want an official word on rp guidelines of not actual rules. I feel like this isn't needed if things like fail mechanics and fail messages are changed. Let the system improve and the basic rp rules will cover the rest.
Eh, I'm not saying use the knowledge of code though. I'm saying read what the game world gives you.
These aren't emotes of a mage wiggling their fingers, where we react according to documentation. This is a mage casting a spell in front of you, but far more subtle (which is why I'm saying that it's repetitive fails that should lead to the beginnings of investigation, not a single echo of a strange feeling). I'm also purposely leaving out what the echos themselves are, so you have to kind of give me some leeway there.
I'm saying the game tells you feelings that you have, and you should react to them. The game tells you things that happen to you, and you should react to them. This is not one of those things that has a grey area; you are being told directly what you think on their successes, and you are being told directly what you feel on their failures. This is not an interpretive emote. This is not a 'Just fyi, this is going on so that you can roleplay better.' This is indeed not a MUSH, there's no need to twist things around so that echoes aren't -really- echoes, and skill failures aren't -really- skill failures.
If you fail on someone, it should not lead to the witch hunt. If you critically fail on someone, it might lead to someone getting worried, but not a witch hunt. If you fail on the same person multiple times, they have every justification to start thinking something is up. If you succeed all the time on one person...congratulations, you are now the super-scary mindworm!
QuoteI feel like this isn't needed if things like fail mechanics and fail messages are changed.
This was also what I inferred, and put into my other post; if this is -not- how the skill failures should be treated, then the code needs to be modified to reflect that, because the code is our law of physics that tells us, directly, what we are and aren't exposed to. The point of that other post was exactly this kind of situation, where we create a grey area basically just to tell other people who are reacting to things the game tells them that they should actually be doubting what the game tells them or allows them to do.
I love being bent. I love getting those forced thoughts. It's so fun! I love playing ignorance to what's happening. Last time I'm afraid I meta'd into trying to manipulate one psion with my character's interior world, but that's just one of my other mini games.
Occasionally things won't meld or feel right. I try to just let that slide, because, you know, if confusion or mismatch of emotions is the ticket price, I still want to go on the ride.
Anyway, I see these happy occasions as an opportunity to roleplay with another player on a different level than usual and I really enjoy them. Occasionally newer players get freaked and know "from the docs" and do their best to flush out the psion out post haste. I just want you to know, in my opinion, that's the least fun plot arc you can have if a psion has become interested in you.
I hope my perspective can help other players find different ways of sussing out fun.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 17, 2016, 11:13:57 AM
I'm saying the game tells you feelings that you have, and you should react to them. The game tells you things that happen to you, and you should react to them. This is not one of those things that has a grey area; you are being told directly what you think on their successes, and you are being told directly what you feel on their failures. This is not an interpretive emote. This is not a 'Just fyi, this is going on so that you can roleplay better.' This is indeed not a MUSH, there's no need to twist things around so that echoes aren't -really- echoes, and skill failures aren't -really- skill failures.
I mostly agree with this. I mean, you're absolutely right. You don't get to pretend you didn't just think something weird and you shouldn't go all bender crazy if all you get is a forced think or feel with no other suspicious echo from the game. The game says let there be thought and bam, there be thought. I worry about establishing hard lines though because there is leeway for extremes.
For example, I was playing with my 2 year old a little bit ago while I was thinking about this. And I thought, what if right now I had a surface thought that went something like, "I should give her up to human traffickers." First of all, thoughts as words? We could talk all day about what that actually is. Imagining the act would be an echo, no? "You imagine yourself getting a fat was of cash from some shady European." There's likely a power for that. Just thinking those words, that's a curious thing. Language is imagined as spoken, I believe. Thoughts aren't framed in language unless the thoughts involve language. Does that make sense? That's where I'm coming from when I consider that there's an element of player interpretation here. Secondly, to actually make me do something so against my grain, to consider it beyond a brief moment of self-loathing because I muse on such sick crap, to force not just surface thoughts but deeper motor function control, that's probably its own power. If I'm forced to think she's probably fine left alone for a few minutes so I can go take a shower, allowing the traffickers to come take her, that's a different story and one that I would hope for people to play along with. It's so fuzzy all around.
I also think I'm coming across as far more contentious than I actually am. I have no plans of starting mindbender witch hunts unless, like has been said, things get taken to an extreme.
Mostly, I'm trying to elaborate on the whole conundrum that people may be facing, and clarify from a code-based perspective for everyone. Don't treat the psionicist skill's success like proof that they exist, because...that's them succeeding, man. Even if it's a weird thought, it shouldn't ever come across as 'foreign'. Just weird. Likewise, don't get mad at people for reacting to failures...that's a failure, man, and the game definitely gives you that information for a reason other than to be ignored. It -is- to be reacted to, we just need to set the bar for how that reaction should compare.
Most of the time, a psionicist probably shouldn't have a hard time keeping under the radar. In reading that documentation though, I got the distinct impression that it was a roleplay guide, yes, but one that would go at odds with how the code functions. I think there could be some wording changes to show that suspicion can come along reasonably, but it's more of an over time, am-I-going-crazy sort of idea, rather than the stark, eye-widening realization that people often play it as (wrongly imo, I might add).
QuoteDoes that make sense? That's where I'm coming from when I consider that there's an element of player interpretation here.
It does make sense, but I consider it a moot point considering that it's the same method for which information is also gleaned by the class. It's the medium that we work with, and we work around it as much as possible. Your second example illustrates what I mean by 'real' psionicist manipulation, though...projecting the thought of 'You hate that guy.' is a lot less effective than 'You never noticed how much this behavior of his grates on your nerves.' But as noted, that's kind of hard to do sometimes due to those of us who use think and feel more sparingly.
You're right, it's the medium in which we play. It's like... Descriptive conveyance of... Coded conflict resolution of... Make believe fantasy telepathic powers... manipulating the most difficult to understand of human behaviors. But it had me thinking something that may help inform the discussion. Do you all think there is a meaningful difference between:
You think it's been a really crappy day.
And
You think, "It's been a really crappy day."
Is one better than the other for our purposes?
Not one of my PCs has been told in plain language what a mindbender's failed attempt feels like.
Or:
You think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyk-Vdd_Qrk
More seriously, this has been really helpful. Like I said, when I first got a think that I didn't type out, my gut reaction was to suppose that my character would view this thought as somehow foreign. Luckily, I filed a character report on it, and staff told me there's no difference at the level of qualia.
I wouldn't mind this being added to the help file (not sure which one). I also would like to figure out how to interact with mind benders. Without going into too many details (and I'm not sure you could answer these without going into those details, but):
1. Do they see thoughts and feels?
2. Do they see my emotes?
3. Do they see my psis?
4. Do they see my says?
Now, don't answer that, since I feel it'd be too revealing, but here's why I'd like to know sometimes:
You feel an itch on your ear. (Sent by a mindbender, or maybe staff.)
> em itches ^me ear
Did they see anything? Or should I have also done a corny thought: Oh I think I should scratch my ear?
How best can we interact with mind-benders?
The answer is probably: just do your thing and not fuss it.
Quote from: solera on November 17, 2016, 01:21:23 PM
Not one of my PCs has been told in plain language what a mindbender's failed attempt feels like.
I never said they were explained. I said that it was a distinctly different feel that was definitively Way-related that was subtle enough to be just a weird thing, but not subtle enough to be ignored over repeated exposures.
Quote from: path on November 17, 2016, 11:19:39 AM
I love being bent. I love getting those forced thoughts. It's so fun! I love playing ignorance to what's happening. Last time I'm afraid I meta'd into trying to manipulate one psion with my character's interior world, but that's just one of my other mini games.
Occasionally things won't meld or feel right. I try to just let that slide, because, you know, if confusion or mismatch of emotions is the ticket price, I still want to go on the ride.
Anyway, I see these happy occasions as an opportunity to roleplay with another player on a different level than usual and I really enjoy them. Occasionally newer players get freaked and know "from the docs" and do their best to flush out the psion out post haste. I just want you to know, in my opinion, that's the least fun plot arc you can have if a psion has become interested in you.
I hope my perspective can help other players find different ways of sussing out fun.
Best. You're never going to win. Neither is the psi. Search your feelings, trust in the dark side. Down tha path lies awesome.
Quote from: Bahliker on November 17, 2016, 01:58:40 PM
Quote from: path on November 17, 2016, 11:19:39 AM
I love being bent. I love getting those forced thoughts. It's so fun! I love playing ignorance to what's happening. Last time I'm afraid I meta'd into trying to manipulate one psion with my character's interior world, but that's just one of my other mini games.
Occasionally things won't meld or feel right. I try to just let that slide, because, you know, if confusion or mismatch of emotions is the ticket price, I still want to go on the ride.
Anyway, I see these happy occasions as an opportunity to roleplay with another player on a different level than usual and I really enjoy them. Occasionally newer players get freaked and know "from the docs" and do their best to flush out the psion out post haste. I just want you to know, in my opinion, that's the least fun plot arc you can have if a psion has become interested in you.
I hope my perspective can help other players find different ways of sussing out fun.
Best. You're never going to win. Neither is the psi. Search your feelings, trust in the dark side. Down tha path lies awesome.
Agreed. I think people think the 'I Found the Mindbender' is another notch for the belt, or somehow a really cool plotline. It really isn't.
Play your demented PCs to the hilt and don't elevate their thoughts/understandings to be important.
GET ON THE RIDE.
My first experience with a mindworm, when I was still a newb, I reacted and ran off and reported it to who might very well have been the mindworm themselves for all I know. They went with it IC...
"Everything is going to be fine, it's probably all those beatings you take. Here, I have something to fix that right up!" and handed me a purple tablet, and it dawned on me just what a shitty thing I'd done, so I took the tablet, had a hallucinagenic freak out, and never spoke of it again.
Later, I'd be involved in plots with people who'd say "I think Amos is a mindworm!"
"Really? Why?"
"Because he was the only other person at the bar and I felt some weird things."
"I feel weird things too, besides, that tavern's usually pretty busy, you're telling me it was cleared out for once?"
"Oh no they're after you too!"
"No they're not. Besides, mindworms aren't real."
"How can you say that?"
"Because, they're, not, real. And on the off-chance they are, do you think I'd really want a mindworm to think that I was a threat to their existence, with all they could do to make my life miserable."
"Suppose you got a point there."
Then there's being accused of being a mindworm which results in something akin to this:
think (angry) Because if I really was a mindworm I'd make you cut your own throat, asshole.
If I was a mindworm
You think to your self, there is no way Jihelu could be a mindworm
I'd make people think the people next to them were, and even actively try to frame them.
To throw people off my trail?
Nah.
Because it'd be funny.
Which is worse for being hunted, being a rogue or being a mindbender? What I mean is, 1. which is more difficult in general and 2. which is more metagamey?
I think in the case of psions the meta-game that is being pointed out is quite different from any meta-game with witches in at least this sense: it seems to me that a new player could well interpret the current documentation and echoes associated with mindworming to allow their character immediate and easy inference to: this is mindworm, it is bad, I should tell people.
a) Receiving a thought that you did not type in was (at least to me) something I didn't know how to process.
b) Funnily, staff once animated a kankfly and accidentally made it talk to my first character. I flipped out, and all those around her immediately suggested that it was likely a mindworm and to take precautions.
c) HELP PSIONICIST suggests that mind worms are fairly common.
d) The various echoes you do get are very confusing. I've also wished up receiving them on my first character, unsure how to interpret them.
So, in sum, I think its a lot more natural for people to respond to psionicists in the way that Jingo worries about. I agree with path that the -better- way would be to let the tickler tickle the mind, and live the ride.
How do we get there? As with a lot of code things, it just takes time and experience. Maybe your first encounter with a psionicist you flip out, but by #3 or #4 you realize that you can roll with it, and how to interpret things.
Quote from: a french mans shirt on November 18, 2016, 11:56:40 AM
Which is worse for being hunted, being a rogue or being a mindbender? What I mean is, 1. which is more difficult in general and 2. which is more metagamey?
Mindbender is worse, Mindbender is more meta-gamey.
To clarify, when someone is outed as 'the bender', it appears that all other functions of the world cease and the hunting of said bender pushes enemies into becoming friends, and the whole rabble gets pitchforks and goes hunting.
While some might say 'this is how it should be working, Mindworms should be hunted down and killed' -- You might then wonder aloud, why do Mindworms practice mainly on NPCs? Because of the fear that one -- Yes one -- critical fail among other things might ruin their (for a lack of a better word) fun. So you don't use skills on PCs until you are incredibly talented.
I would argue that is a slightly borked system. Mindworms should be able to practice on PCs without the fear that they will be outed 1/100 times.
I'd suggest altering the 'critical fail' message to be less cryptic and revealing, but to simultaneously make it difficult for a Mindworm to repeatedly use an ability. Doing things like causing physical damage to the Mindworm (Nosebleeds, HP loss), and other sorts of 'identifying marks' that people can pick up on, might be a more nuanced way of going about it.
As with many things related to Magick or Psionics though this is a difficult subject to broach on the GDB without revealing too much.
Mindbender all the way. Its a guild unto itself. Magickers now are at least a subguild so you supposedly have other things to fall back on.
Mindbenders don't have (as much) to fall back on, if someone starts sniffing around.
Mindbender is far worse. They're the only Guild that relies on other people's RP to be dangerous.
If you had to emote "flails around on fire" everytime a krathi flings a fireball at you, people wouldn't take them seriously either.
I would advise Mindbenders to only use their abilities on sponsored roles, but you can't even really trust the RP there sometimes.
Here's a comparison between mind benders and rogues.
Mindbenders are pickpockets
Rogues are burglars.
Mindbenders NEED a person or npc to train on, same with pickpocket, and failing these is fucking disastrous.
You could argue finding someone to help you with pickpocket training is easier than psion training, rip in piece tuluk, but messing up will start a witch hunt either way.
And depending on who you stole from/what you stole from you might get murdered.
Burglars don't necessarily need a pc to practice on. And in the same way 'someone might see me burglar/use magic' you may or may not get caught.
The only difference is doing Templar's can't look at you and see that you are a burglar the same way they can look at a magicker and tell he's an idiot becuase he's done [REDACTED]
I also think training on NPCs as a mindworm is frowned upon by staff.
Lets steer clear of the mechanics a bit guys, I'd appreciate it.
So there was a bit of discussion on this staff side and we came to the term that Psionics in the form of a Forced thought or feeling, are Forced, not injected. So what the means is to the receiver, it's their own mind making this thought or feeling. I really cannot go into any more detail to be honest due to mechanics of the skills and of the guild itself, but I wanted to share this clarity as it thought it would help in this discussion.
At the same point I do think at some point I may look at writing a Guild Roleplaying Guide for Psions. If at least, it will show staff's wants for Roleplay when it comes to a Psion, and guidelines that we request to be followed. Of course with any Guide, it isn't going to be all hard rules, there can always be situations, but it is more suggestions to good roleplay. For example "It's bad form to just tell someone to jump off a cliff with your powers. Subtle application is more effective and likely to get proper response."
Either way, I do appreciate the feedb and I also did get a volunteer to edit the new helpfile that is being built.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 17, 2016, 02:05:14 PM
Agreed. I think people think the 'I Found the Mindbender' is another notch for the belt, or somehow a really cool plotline. It really isn't.
Sometimes it's IC for the character to seek a notch for their belt, for instance because they desperately need recognition from their superiors. I did this once for that very IC reason, and to be fair, my character overreacted a bit because she was so friggin' desperate for a templar (Or Torgun, that ole meanie head) to tell her she did a good job with SOMETHING. I wouldn't have done it if I wasn't also OOCly convinced the person was a bender, though. I would have felt too bad about it otherwise.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 18, 2016, 03:14:04 PM
I also think training on NPCs as a mindworm is frowned upon by staff.
Yes, this was true last I knew. Probably still is. It is however okay to just 'contact elf', you don't have to pick specific PCs you know.
Quote from: Ath on November 18, 2016, 03:59:51 PM
Lets steer clear of the mechanics a bit guys, I'd appreciate it.
So there was a bit of discussion on this staff side and we came to the term that Psionics in the form of a Forced thought or feeling, are Forced, not injected. So what the means is to the receiver, it's their own mind making this thought or feeling. I really cannot go into any more detail to be honest due to mechanics of the skills and of the guild itself, but I wanted to share this clarity as it thought it would help in this discussion.
At the same point I do think at some point I may look at writing a Guild Roleplaying Guide for Psions. If at least, it will show staff's wants for Roleplay when it comes to a Psion, and guidelines that we request to be followed. Of course with any Guide, it isn't going to be all hard rules, there can always be situations, but it is more suggestions to good roleplay. For example "It's bad form to just tell someone to jump off a cliff with your powers. Subtle application is more effective and likely to get proper response."
Either way, I do appreciate the feedb and I also did get a volunteer to edit the new helpfile that is being built.
Absolutely -- New helpfiles would be wonderful, and having a sort of 'What you know about Psionics: Commoner Edition' would be a helpful guide post as well. It's as simple as the story nauta mentioned -- New players don't know it's possible to have thoughts forced on you, or what that is. So something to OOCly approach the subject, so the player is informed, even if the PC isn't, would be cool.
It's a -really- important thing that you said here that should definitely be included in the helpfile -- That a forced thought or emotion is not fabricated externally from your mind. It is -your- mind fabricating that thought or emotion. So, even if it is left-field, it is your mind having a left-field moment.
What I can infer though, is that repeated failures on the Mindbender's part, or simply too bizarre of thoughts or conflicting moods back to back, may make someone who is suspicious or doubtful even more doubtful and suspicious.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 18, 2016, 05:01:43 PM
Absolutely -- New helpfiles would be wonderful, and having a sort of 'What you know about Psionics: Commoner Edition' would be a helpful guide post as well. It's as simple as the story nauta mentioned -- New players don't know it's possible to have thoughts forced on you, or what that is. So something to OOCly approach the subject, so the player is informed, even if the PC isn't, would be cool.
+1
Ath, as long as it is "permissible" for the receiver to actively deny the thought, that's fine. Like:
>[forcethink]You think you are falling in love with Amos.
>[methink] Wait, what? The guy I just put a bounty out on because I hate him? What a profoundly ridiculous thought.
>[methink] Here's another profoundly ridiculous thought. I am from another galaxy, and the black moon is made out of moldy cheese.
and it thoughts like that - that are *totally contrary* to what's actually going on with my character, continue in a profoundly ridiculous way, it would be a logical final step to conclude that a mindbender must be fucking with my character's head.
Compare with something more believable to my character:
>[forcethink] You think you might be doubting your decision to put a bounty out on Amos.
followed an hour later by:
>[forcethink] You are really starting to doubt your decision about Amos' bounty.
followed the next day by:
>[forcethink] Amos really isn't all that bad, it's just a misunderstanding.
followed a couple of hours later by:
>[forcethink] Amos is actually kind of cute, isn't he.
and so on - gradually, until the mindbender no longer has to [forcethink] anything, because my character is fully convinced that she's in love with Amos.
The way I see it, you are not your thoughts. And thoughts can conflict with your 'higher brain' sort of functions, but still be your own contrarianism or annoying devil's advocate. So in my personal experience, when a thought comes from left field and i'm like...But wait, maybe that is right. No, no...I still hate Amos.
Just because you have a thought or a feeling doesn't mean you act on it, unless you choose to. Maybe I am falling in love with Amos...No, no that's silly. But maybe he is kind of cute? Hrmmm.
I for one would love a psi to brainfuck my characters at times. Would liven up RP and give a new direction to things for example.
Forcedthinks culminating in this: You love so and so after some time
I now have the avenue to pursue this person if it makes sense. There are a few folks I would never go for and thats ok because its still my mind trying to convince me of this thing.
Just because I have thoughts about hoisting the black flag and slitting throats doesn't mean I'll follow through with it.
But everyone's had Those Thoughts.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 18, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
The way I see it, you are not your thoughts. And thoughts can conflict with your 'higher brain' sort of functions, but still be your own contrarianism or annoying devil's advocate. So in my personal experience, when a thought comes from left field and i'm like...But wait, maybe that is right. No, no...I still hate Amos.
Just because you have a thought or a feeling doesn't mean you act on it, unless you choose to. Maybe I am falling in love with Amos...No, no that's silly. But maybe he is kind of cute? Hrmmm.
What I included in my post (and I corrected the spelling - word is if, not it):
Quoteand if thoughts like that - that are *totally contrary* to what's actually going on with my character, continue in a profoundly ridiculous way, it would be a logical final step to conclude that a mindbender must be fucking with my character's head.
So yes - I'm agreeing with you (and everyone else here) - a thought here and there that makes no sense - is fine, it's great to RP with it, run with it, grok it utterly.
But when someone is *continually* putting ridiculously contrary thoughts into your head, then it's time to acknowledge the fact of Zalanthas that mindbenders DO exist, their existence is not a secret (though what they can do is), and apparently, whatever is going on in your head MIGHT VERY POSSIBLY be the result of a mindbender.
I say this because in real life, there is no mindbender to turn to, and therefore, the only conclusion is "my mind is not healthy" (whether you're going insane, you're taking mind-altering drugs, someone is poisoning you, you read too much fake news on the internet). In Zalanthas, mindbenders DO exist, and without knowing ANYTHING about mindbenders other than the nomenclature, it stands to reason that they ARE absolutely positively one possible cause for "thoughts that don't make sense for me to think but keep being thought, regardless." The character's mind, quite literally, is being bent. By a mindbender, which is an entity in Zalanthas that is known to exist. What do they do? They bend minds. What is happening to me, the character? Well I could just be going crazy. But it could also be a mindbender. How do I know this? Because I know mindbenders exist, and are therefore on possible explanation.
Yeeeaaaah, I think the only reason there continues to be any appearance of contrariness is because it keeps on falling back towards a presentation of absolutism as far as there being no risk for discovery.
I'm sorry. But they can be discovered. It just shouldn't be done through immediate and jarring leaps of knee-jerk reactions. That's been reiterated many times throughout the thread, but keeps falling back into 'I dunnooooo...' or 'Any time you think it could be a psionicist, you're automatically doing something wrong.'
The forcethink seems to be the major topic of debate, but I'm speaking all around. Consistent manipulations of the way that are felt are the same as being persistently shadowed by someone who's good, but is still human (and therefore imperfect), as a glimpse in the corner of your vision. When you look, it's not there. At first you dismiss it. Then you think you might be going crazy. Then you're sure of it (or actually crazy, but that's other people's roleplay, not yours, when you bring it up, as you more than likely will at this stage). Insisting that everyone stop at the 'I must be crazy' stage is stepping pretty far out of the boundary to, once again, create a grey area that isn't there. My insistence is that your successes are not glimpses at the corner of my eye. They aren't even noticed, they are completely internalized. But exposure to failures gives that glimpse that gives a moment of opportunity for the external stimuli to perceived as external rather than internal, and if you choose to ignore it (as you probably should, for the first couple), that's great.
But not everyone will. Ever. Not in real scenarios, not in fake scenarios, not ever. There is no such thing as completely uniform behavior to any given stimuli that is real, which is why I say that if you want there to be no perceived stimuli, then the game code needs to remove the idea that there is a stimuli, i.e. remove failure messages altogether. But I think that, all around, is counter-intuitive to the basis of the MUD.
Edited to add: I should say I'm not accusing anyone of actually saying it's an absolute, but the appearance of posts goes that way even when speaking of general rules without specific cases of exceptions; much like documentation, the lack of acknowledgement that it's not always true makes it something that can be taken as 'it -must- be done this way.'
Quote from: Lizzie on November 18, 2016, 05:04:42 PM
Ath, as long as it is "permissible" for the receiver to actively deny the thought, that's fine. Like:
>[forcethink]You think you are falling in love with Amos.
>[methink] Wait, what? The guy I just put a bounty out on because I hate him? What a profoundly ridiculous thought.
>[methink] Here's another profoundly ridiculous thought. I am from another galaxy, and the black moon is made out of moldy cheese.
I'd be fine with this.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 18, 2016, 06:19:37 PM
Yeeeaaaah, I think the only reason there continues to be any appearance of contrariness is because it keeps on falling back towards a presentation of absolutism as far as there being no risk for discovery.
I'm sorry. But they can be discovered. It just shouldn't be done through immediate and jarring leaps of knee-jerk reactions. That's been reiterated many times throughout the thread, but keeps falling back into 'I dunnooooo...' or 'Any time you think it could be a psionicist, you're automatically doing something wrong.'
The forcethink seems to be the major topic of debate, but I'm speaking all around. Consistent manipulations of the way that are felt are the same as being persistently shadowed by someone who's good, but is still human (and therefore imperfect), as a glimpse in the corner of your vision. When you look, it's not there. At first you dismiss it. Then you think you might be going crazy. Then you're sure of it (or actually crazy, but that's other people's roleplay, not yours, when you bring it up, as you more than likely will at this stage). Insisting that everyone stop at the 'I must be crazy' stage is stepping pretty far out of the boundary to, once again, create a grey area that isn't there. My insistence is that your successes are not glimpses at the corner of my eye. They aren't even noticed, they are completely internalized. But exposure to failures gives that glimpse that gives a moment of opportunity for the external stimuli to perceived as external rather than internal, and if you choose to ignore it (as you probably should, for the first couple), that's great.
But not everyone will. Ever. Not in real scenarios, not in fake scenarios, not ever. There is no such thing as completely uniform behavior to any given stimuli that is real, which is why I say that if you want there to be no perceived stimuli, then the game code needs to remove the idea that there is a stimuli, i.e. remove failure messages altogether. But I think that, all around, is counter-intuitive to the basis of the MUD.
Edited to add: I should say I'm not accusing anyone of actually saying it's an absolute, but the appearance of posts goes that way even when speaking of general rules without specific cases of exceptions; much like documentation, the lack of acknowledgement that it's not always true makes it something that can be taken as 'it -must- be done this way.'
Theoretically a mindworm should be able to convince you that it was just a meaningless trick of your mind.
Forcethink: "Bah. That was probably nothing."
The reason I didn't do this was because I was worried about confirming someone's ooc suspicions about the incident.
I don't think I've ever received that devoted of attention. Either that or the psionicist failing gets bug-eyes at realizing they just failed and immediately panic and retreat (I did that once with my psionicist). I think once you hit that level, the average player should realize that they're going to be truly interacted with and see where this story takes them. Here's to hoping some mindbenders do it for your benefit from time to time. ;D
However, my memory has been tickled. During the Copper War, there was a large gathering of conscripts, soldiers, commoners, and nobles that were all gathered and given a huge diatribe about how the north employed the mind tricks as mindbenders, and to be on the look out for this, this, and this.
This grants precedence to the idea that while many commoners won't know, there will be some that will. There will be urban legends about it, the same as sorcery. They are in reality not a boogieman, but a real, acknowledged enemy of the state and all its commoners. And there is a general idea of what it means to be 'bended'.
That negates none of the conversation that has been had, aside from the creation of the idea that they are invisible threats that are rarely acknowledged to exist. It changes none of the etiquette/code acknowledgement that I said before.
Yo Ath. I sent an e-mail with some observations about the Psionicist class.
Take a look.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 18, 2016, 07:20:32 PM
However, my memory has been tickled. During the Copper War, there was a large gathering of conscripts, soldiers, commoners, and nobles that were all gathered and given a huge diatribe about how the north employed the mind tricks as mindbenders, and to be on the look out for this, this, and this.
In my day-to-day, I assume "being bended" and being on the look out for "Northie bender traps" is just that kind of thing parents tell their kids to make them behave. Sort of like the boogeyman, only it turns out he DOES exist. So it goes through a few layers, starting with:
"They don't REALLY exist, its just an excuse"
to
"Okay, so maybe something LIKE it exists, but no way would they give a shit about me"
to
"They definitely seem to exist, and I think I know someone that its happening to but if I say anything they'll think I'm one"
etc etc etc
Quote from: nauta on November 18, 2016, 12:12:53 PM
c) HELP PSIONICIST suggests that mind worms are fairly common.
???
I was always under the impression that they were rather uncommon. I think one of the FAQs has a list of guilds from most common to least common, and psionicists are at the bottom.
Am I missing something...? Where is it suggested that mindworms are common?
I also would never have the idea that they were common, and I think the helpfile suggesting so is a misread.
I do think that they are only as 'unknown' as mages were in the north. People know they exist, but it's suppressed. There has never in my recollection prior to this post been posited with any certainty that they should be considered something boogie-mannish in any way other than that they're frightening to people. This part about people not even believing they exist is pretty new, and I'm not sure where that sprouted from, but the more I read that idea the more foreign it is in nature.
I can get behind a lot of pro-psionicist things in this thread, but that's a part that seems pretty out of whack with how things have been treated in the game for a long time. We've been having discussions on how people should be meeting in person because of the insecurity of the Way, even.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 19, 2016, 04:32:02 AM
There has never in my recollection prior to this post been posited with any certainty that they should be considered something boogie-mannish in any way other than that they're frightening to people. This part about people not even believing they exist is pretty new, and I'm not sure where that sprouted from, but the more I read that idea the more foreign it is in nature.
I'm not going to go back through a handful of pages to check how this idea was worded...but could it have been meant more like "I can't wrap my head around how it could be possible, and I've never known anyone who felt anything weird in their heads and I haven't felt anything too weird either, and I haven't ever seen anyone who -looks- strange...so maybe probably they aren't even real things and it's all just a scary story"?
Quote from: manipura on November 19, 2016, 03:35:05 AM
Quote from: nauta on November 18, 2016, 12:12:53 PM
c) HELP PSIONICIST suggests that mind worms are fairly common.
???
I was always under the impression that they were rather uncommon. I think one of the FAQs has a list of guilds from most common to least common, and psionicists are at the bottom.
Am I missing something...? Where is it suggested that mindworms are common?
Yeah, sorry -- what Armaddict said. I meant it in the sense that it suggests that we'd have a general knowledge of their existence
pace some of the suggestions above that they are akin to bogeymen. Here's the relevant bit:
Quote
Psionicists have come to be known as mindbenders, and masters of the
Way. They deal with manipulation of the Way, bending it to serve their
plots and designs. Because of their ability to deal directly with people's
minds, true psionicists are killed on sight (though of course none would
be so foolish as to announce their presence openly, just as a defiler
would not) in just about every civilized region of Zalanthas, due to
their highly dangerous potential.
Quote from: manipura on November 19, 2016, 03:35:05 AM
Quote from: nauta on November 18, 2016, 12:12:53 PM
c) HELP PSIONICIST suggests that mind worms are fairly common.
???
I was always under the impression that they were rather uncommon. I think one of the FAQs has a list of guilds from most common to least common, and psionicists are at the bottom.
Am I missing something...? Where is it suggested that mindworms are common?
It's the least common among the list of playable guilds. It's a pretty literal statement. I mean - "waiter/waitress/housekeeping/janitor" is not a coded available guild, and so in regards to the criteria "list of guilds" they are unplayable. And yet - in regards to the overall theme of the game, they're probably more common than anything else.
In regards to the list of guilds, mindbenders are the rarest. But in regards to the different types of people dwelling on the planet Zalanthas - they might not be all that rare.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 18, 2016, 05:04:42 PM
Ath, as long as it is "permissible" for the receiver to actively deny the thought, that's fine. Like:
>[forcethink]You think you are falling in love with Amos.
>[methink] Wait, what? The guy I just put a bounty out on because I hate him? What a profoundly ridiculous thought.
>[methink] Here's another profoundly ridiculous thought. I am from another galaxy, and the black moon is made out of moldy cheese.
and it thoughts like that - that are *totally contrary* to what's actually going on with my character, continue in a profoundly ridiculous way, it would be a logical final step to conclude that a mindbender must be fucking with my character's head.
Compare with something more believable to my character:
>[forcethink] You think you might be doubting your decision to put a bounty out on Amos.
followed an hour later by:
>[forcethink] You are really starting to doubt your decision about Amos' bounty.
followed the next day by:
>[forcethink] Amos really isn't all that bad, it's just a misunderstanding.
followed a couple of hours later by:
>[forcethink] Amos is actually kind of cute, isn't he.
and so on - gradually, until the mindbender no longer has to [forcethink] anything, because my character is fully convinced that she's in love with Amos.
I agree with this for the most part, in that the player is still the de facto controller of their own character, and in that even if he or she accepts that their character -has been successfully mindbent- they retain most of the control and right to interpret the changes (esp considering the mechanical limitations of that ability and the possibility that the thoughts make no narrative sense). But in your example I have to ask, who in the world has the power to -make- your character fall in love with Amos against her will, if not a psionicist making her think things she wouldn't otherwise think? Let's assume the ability to make you think things is a step shy of physically making you lean over and start making out with amos right away. I don't believe there's a coded way for a psionicist to step in and rewrite your background and personality profile for you, so what other way is there to control your pc and make her get down with Amos but manipulating her thoughts one think command at a time? Actually let me rephrase, because I'm not asking that question, I know that answer and it's not what I'm getting it. Here it is: why is that not the way to make her fall in love with amos and why do you get to decide how many psionic commands it takes?
Again this comes down to what we think the commands "think" and "feel" represent. According to the help files, think sounds to me like nothing but surface and feel is a lot deeper. If you get a "you feel in love with amos" does that change things for you? Or, switching to another approach, what if "You see the tall, muscular man in a sudden new light. He's handsome and charming and you can't get enough of that smile. It's true love." appears on your screen.
I believe this is why it's an 8 karma role, and should honestly be by special request even for 8ks.
They control other characters period fullstop. Unless they're telling you to pick up the hot coal that isn't in the room, you kind of have to play along or you're not playing at all.
(http://87804c6124014826b3ef-3d214fd474cd2df9cdee1b4ee2b1a895.r73.cf2.rackcdn.com/601452.jpg)
QuoteI'm not going to go back through a handful of pages to check how this idea was worded...but could it have been meant more like "I can't wrap my head around how it could be possible, and I've never known anyone who felt anything weird in their heads and I haven't felt anything too weird either, and I haven't ever seen anyone who -looks- strange...so maybe probably they aren't even real things and it's all just a scary story"?
Yup, I went back and reread and some were very benignly worded so as to allow room for what I've been talking about, which is acknowledgement that they exist. Essentially their stance is just 'I have lots of reasons to doubt that a single occurrence is a mindbender', which I'm on board with.
There were only a couple that took on a more assertive tone of 'They shouldn't even be regarded as real', and I managed to lump them together due to repetition and intermingling.
QuoteUnless they're telling you to pick up the hot coal that isn't in the room, you kind of have to play along or you're not playing at all.
While I for the most part agree, the statement that they're no longer trying to roleplay is an extreme and seems more like an attempt at bashing them into behaving a certain way, but as long as we're creating theoreticals to argue about which is more viable than the other, then really it's pretty hard to come down on someone for having a different theoretical approach. For all we know, it could indeed have been played wrong for the opposite reasonall this time, because every drunkass having weird thoughts should have been blaming a bender, or every human cheating on a monogamous relationship should be blaming the actions on the Way.
This is why I say we stick to letting the code tell us whether we know things or not. It's quick, simple, and not really a point that can be argued against unless it's a call to change the code itself. That's pretty much how I intend to <continue to> do it, albeit with a little more care to try and give some information to help their manipulations along.
Yeah, it's hard to come down on someone because it's all theoretical approaches. The whole thing is an imaginary abstract of an imaginary abstract. Once you compare how people use think and feel vs how they are described, then how the various powers interact with those commands and the interface in general... It's the greyest area of the whole game. Nobody is wrong in this thread. Even if hard lines are drawn by the staff, it's going to be fuzzy.
I do think if you try to say "my character wouldn't do that" to a benders manipulation, you're not role playing. It's like saying your character wouldn't get his butt kicked.
"But my character wouldn't in a million years think that for real!"
"Guess what, it does now."
But even if that's the hard line layed out for us, there needs to be an understanding of limitations and setting-specific mechanics. Does it wear off over time? Is there a recovery breakthrough possible, like repressed memories? Could the changes be obvious to an outsider (like glassy-eyed parroting of the planted ideas when they're questioned), can a logical paradox break the hold and reveal the worst of it? Mind control is such a cool concept in fiction. But it always seems to behave differently and there's usually rules well established.
Having your character forced to think that they are in love with Amos now, or want to kill him, because a mindbender made them believe that, is a beautiful idea that doesn't currently have a real route to reality because we don't want to force anyone's character to think anything with that strength. If we had flags we could toggle on and off for things like this I would like that.
>forcethink on
You are now allowing the roleplayed consequences of forced thinks.
>forcethink off
You are no longer allowing roleplayed consequences from forced thinks.
I would kill for this idea because I've had seven or eight occurrences of mindbenders messing with me and none of them have been anything but practice sessions to git gud.
Imagine if you worked hard for the last few months and graduated the Atrium, became an aide, survived your noble's constrained death, began to work for his killer to survive, proven your loyalty, became an Advisor...
and typed >forcethink on.
Beautiful!
???
Might as well have "magick on/off" and "harshness on/off".
QuoteMight as well have "magick on/off"
They took out nilazis. Therefore...we are all nilazis now.
Muhahahaha!
(I'd totally be a magick off kind of guy.)
Quote from: Reiloth on November 20, 2016, 01:10:03 PM
???
Might as well have "magick on/off" and "harshness on/off".