regarding 'a random thought' in ATS

[Akaramu]

I had a PC, Lantry, who was a Byn Sergeant that had flashbacks of a friend, Clay, who died on a mission in a horrible fashion to Gith (Think Scalping, Mutilation). Lantry was the only survivor (because he ran away, but the Byn didn't know that at the time, or didn't do anything about it). This was all a virtual backdrop. However, I had Biographies that detailed all of this that Staff read up on it seemed, and when I had flashbacks using feels/thinks, they would add little accentuations that fell in line with what I was doing, without dictating the scene or changing the feel.

My mindbender was interested in Lantry at the time. I almost sent you a kudos for actually rolling with [that one little thing I did] and not dismissing it, but I wanted to wait until Lantry died and then I forgot. There was one random comment from (the totally unwitting) Kolo that let me know Lantry rolled with it, and God, it was so awesome. Thanks. You rock. 

Oh, and your flashbacks were awesome too.

[Miradus]

Never had a psion approach me in any way at all, so I don't know how the mechanics work but here's my general principle:

If you want to give a player an ability which has the potential to END someone else's character or story, then it needs to have a saving throw.

If a psion says "I control your mind to make you attack that half giant guard over there" then I'm supposed to just capitulate? What's wrong about me emoting a visible exertion of willpower, trembling a moment, reaching for my axe, then managing to gain control over my own brain and NOT do what you want me to do?

As I understand it, there are either protocols or perhaps even rules against power-emoting. I can't walk up to someone and emote "I grab your weapon out of your hand" and expect that they'll give me their sword.

So am I, as a player, expected that where a psion is involved I'm supposed to just allow this other player to essentially end my character via what appears to be power-emoting?

I'm willing to play along to a certain extent, but if I wait days on a special app and I've got a good thing going and I'm enjoying the roleplay of a long-lived character, I'll be damned if I'm just going to throw that away because someone throws an echo my way. If it's like Marauder Moe describes as just injecting a thought, then hey, let's have some roleplay, but if it's expected I should immediately become a mind-controlled zombie then there ought to be a saving throw attached to it.

[Riev]

Miradus,

Nobody is saying that if someone makes you think "I'm going to punch that HG soldier in the face" that you have to follow through with it specifically. Although, if you do, super-kudos.

The problem is that people get a think that they didn't type in, and immediately assume "there's a mind-worm" and go fucking BALLISTIC like someone stole 20 coins from their inventory.

Just like in the real world, you can think or feel like stabbing someone in the face, you don't. You still have control over your behaviors, but it can be hard to wrestle that thought down, or reason why its not a good idea.

[Miradus]

Thanks for clarifying, Riev. This thread is all over the place and opinions are flying. Since I've never seen the mechanics of it going on (not important enough to be mindwormed) it doesn't seem clear to me what people expect.

Still doesn't. I know what RIEV expects now, but this thread has the usual fuzziness where half the players think they're playing a MUSH and the others a MUD. My suspicion is that when they have the power they want it to be a mush and when the power is against them they want it to be a mud.

I've been the recipient of a handful of staff interactions and they were definitely of the "Here's what just happened, you decide what to do." The decision was left to me to decide what my character would do and to either benefit from or suffer from the consequences.

I'd expect that same sort of freedom from other players as well.

[Jingo]

Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. 

[Ath]

I need to read up on this whole thread, but I want to say thank you for taking this constructively.  I have some good stuff to add, just going to check my boundaries first.

As for the staff forcing thoughts, I feel it's good for when you want to add to the scene.  There was a case where someone murdered another character, and their character was going nuts with guilt and other feelings and thoughts.  So I decided to do this "You feel the eyes of <victim> upon you." or it was something like this, I could have used an echo to make it look like "You seem to catch the eyes of <victim> looking upon you."  Either way, I forced them to "see" something.  This added to the scene.

I know a few of you have put in responses for me, I'll see about getting back to them here in a bit.

[Ath]

Ath's post:

I once had a thought forced that was so incredibly counter to how my character thought about things, I immediately thought about how strange that thought was because that person was <insert relationship>.

This started a whole 'think' dialogue about whether or not it made sense, which I actually thought was really entertaining.

Is that bad?

I typically suggest confusion... your mind rules you.  I mean, could you be going crazy?  Does a Schizophrenic think they are wrong in their way of thinking and then acting upon it?  I mean, the mind is a hard are to define, we're getting into psychology here and we're just a role playing game.  You're going to role play your character how you wish, but the mind comes up with some of the strangest thoughts... you may not act on them always, but you will think it.

Hmmm, I wonder what popcorn with jelly tastes like?  Does that mean I'm going to go eat popcorn with jelly on it?  Maybe...

Man, I should just jump into this pit, my life is horrible.  Maybe I will jump into the pit because my character has been depressed as of late and the suicidal thoughts just push him over the edge.  Maybe I'm a happy go lucky character that has this suicidal though and then goes into a deep depression because my fragile mind thought such a bad thing, but i don't jump in.

Either way, the mind will have odd thoughts, we all know this.  In most cases people will justify in their own mind why they thought something.

[Armaddict]

Altogether, I thought it was a neat scene, because they were manipulating in such a way that it was my character having an internal dialogue about what they were feeling and why, which got to explain more of my character to them.

Strangely, they didn't use that to continue trying to influence me.  I often wondered what the actual motivation or end goal was for it, or whether they were just wanting some psi-interaction.

It went along the lines of "This person is evil.  You should leave them."
"I've never really thought about leaving before.  They take good care of me, and I enjoy taking care of them.  Why should I leave?"
"But what makes me think they're actually taking care of me?"

So on and so forth.  It was brief, but neat.  I had kind of expected it to be a more constant thing, and hopefully I didn't discourage further attempts just by not going with it immediately.

I do think it's a little jarring, and tempting to resist sharing the control of your character.  I don't blame staff for not wanting to do it when players can often react poorly (myself included).  But if you guys see the chance to jab in a reminder or something like that, and allow the sort of internal-conflict dialogue as above with that injected thought, it might even make you a contributing factor to character development.  *shrug*

[Armaddict]

Also, I don't see the question asked, and I think it would be healthy to get some different perspectives on it:

What -should- reveal someone as a psionicist?  We've talked about how a lot of subtle things tend to give them away which is bad, even if it doesn't give away their identity.  But what is the scale of subtlety?  Which echoes are the ones that would make your character's eyes suddenly bug out in realization that they've been fucked with?  Are there any?

Edited to add:  Myself, I go largely off of code, as per usual.  While subtle echoes are exactly that...when I have the code essentially telling me over and over that I'm feeling something off, or outright revealing an sdesc...that is specifically out of the norm and the danger of failure of those skills being used.  I consider that psionicist at the mercy of the player; they could be the crowd turning away from the failed steal attempt, or they could be the crowd that calls the soldier.

[Delirium]

I've played a wide spectrum of PCs in regards to how knowledgeable they are about the "dark side" of Zalanthas.

The most fun I've ever had is playing people who relentlessly assume there's a mundane explanation for everything.

Only when faced with very odd stuff in repeated doses or with flat-out impossibilities do they go "huh, something is strange here."

Take that for what you will.

I still think staff should be careful not to take the reins away from PCs; I'll use a loosely paraphrased and admittedly rare example:

A magical creature is here.
You are here.
Someone else is here.

You feel rage overcome you. (forced staff echo)

HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage.

A better echo would have been:

Rage emanates from a magical creature and pounds against your senses.

Then I could decide whether my character felt that rage or not, and how much of it, and react accordingly.

[Jihelu]

"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."
In what situation would this ever happen.

Except due to magick.



Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.

[Ath]

So I have been able to get the okay to post this.  This is an article that I wrote a few months ago as there was a rather large discussion on this topic.  The reason why?  Because of the unrealistic response that was made to a Psion affecting someones mind.  Think of this as one of the helpfiles that go over role playing of a specific race.

I'm still reviewing this, but I welcome you all to read it and provide constructive feedback if you'd  like.  We will be working up a final draft for it (this isn't final at all), and it will then get created into a helpfile.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HPtmmTi1RgMdOJO1NhvjjevHNLVV8TQFNBXi98L2PtI/edit?usp=sharing

[Ath]

Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. 

Be nice.  This can be said for quite a few, even potentially you.

[Jihelu]

So I have been able to get the okay to post this.  This is an article that I wrote a few months ago as there was a rather large discussion on this topic.  The reason why?  Because of the unrealistic response that was made to a Psion affecting someones mind.  Think of this as one of the helpfiles that go over role playing of a specific race.

I'm still reviewing this, but I welcome you all to read it and provide constructive feedback if you'd  like.  We will be working up a final draft for it (this isn't final at all), and it will then get created into a helpfile.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HPtmmTi1RgMdOJO1NhvjjevHNLVV8TQFNBXi98L2PtI/edit?usp=sharing

Good read.

I think it would be good for a helpfile.

I do have a question though.

I recall one of my friends saying that staff told him a psion was 'hard mode' and that people wouldn't respond and things like that. Is that still going to be allowed? Would it be right to player complaint people who just refuse to react to psionic abilities or immediately hunt for you/meta you down?

[Ath]

It's kinda funny watching the doc and seeing all the Anon animals showing up.  I'm glad to hear you like it, Jihelu.  I'm pretty passionate on this topic because I see so many VERY well played Psions get screwed over because of bad role play.  I cannot even count the amount of times I've seen a Psion try to do something very simple... maybe put a feeling like scratching their nose, and then you know what happens... nothing. The affected player does nothing.  No thought, no feel, not even a simple emote where they scratch their nose.  They ignore it.

[Riev]

It could use some editorial "tightening up" but the spirit is there. I appreciate how hard it is to say "how to react" when you can't even specifically mention what might happen that you'd react TO.

[Jingo]

Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. 

Be nice.  This can be said for quite a few, even potentially you.

I'm not justifying myself. But I wish threads like this would translate into the game.

But thank you for the document, Ath. It's very encouraging that staff are finally moving on this issue. Hammering away at you guys about it hasn't been the most positive experience but it does at least make me feel listened to.

I would say though, that I think there are more problems with psionicists. Including outdated documentation and weird and unexpected code effects. I'd be happy to correspond regarding some of the other issues facing psionicists.

[Delirium]

"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."

In what situation would this ever happen.

Except due to magick.

Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.

Bolded the relevant part. Yes, it is a unique situation but it goes to show that staff forced feelings/thoughts can be a minefield.

[Jingo]

"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."

In what situation would this ever happen.

Except due to magick.

Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.

Bolded the relevant part. Yes, it is a unique situation but it goes to show that staff forced feelings/thoughts can be a minefield.

You don't have to react predictably. But you have to react in a way that doesn't insist on someone meddling with your mind.

Here are some possibilities:

You are clearly conflicted about your feelings and that induces further rage.
You stay calm despite exterior conditions
You become confused and possibly ill as a result of the internal conflict. *barf*
Rage and calm cancel each other out and perhaps a third emotion takes sway. Such as fear or disgust?

[Ath]

Funny how some players come out one way on the gdb but then jump on the meta bandwagon as quick as the rest while in game. 

Be nice.  This can be said for quite a few, even potentially you.

I'm not justifying myself. But I wish threads like this would translate into the game.

But thank you for the document, Ath. It's very encouraging that staff are finally moving on this issue. Hammering away at you guys about it hasn't been the most positive experience but it does at least make me feel listened to.

I would say though, that I think there are more problems with psionicists. Including outdated documentation and weird and unexpected code effects. I'd be happy to correspond regarding some of the other issues facing psionicists.

I know I'm going to do whatever I can to improve things... I'm no coder and there is so much we can "improve" in this game it's hard to narrow down a single thing.  If you feel the docs our outdated though, send in a request with examples if you could and we can take a look at it.  Documentation/Help Files is an easier area to fix than most others.

It could use some editorial "tightening up" but the spirit is there. I appreciate how hard it is to say "how to react" when you can't even specifically mention what might happen that you'd react TO.

Yeah, I'd be up for having someone volunteer to edit it if they'd like.  I'm no editor, I just spout out what comes to mind.  Send in a Question/Request to one of the GMH Clans, Subject:  Ath - Psion Helpfile Editing, if you are interested in helping.

[Riev]

^^

This is what I meant by "your thoughts and feelings are one thing, your actions are another". If you, as a player, suspect a staff/Psi is interacting with you, I say use thoughts and feelings and have a battle of internal strife. Feeling like you want to do something, and doing it, are completely different.

I've done "feel like pushing that fat fuck down the stairs" a few times before. Never did it, regrettably.

[Delirium]

Jingo, I agree, that quote is a bit out of context with my original post.

Which is that forced feelings/thoughts may not always be realistic to the situation and should be offered carefully.

If it's a psionicist or XYZ creature, that is one thing, but phrasing is important in the echo itself to help make the scene more fluid.

As it is, I froze up due to the directly conflicting emotions - and ended up just having my character do just that. Complete with headclutch.

But it made the scene awkwardly written for me, so I'm pushing for staff / psionicists to consider how their echos are phrased.

A little can go a long way into making the scene more of a collaborative effort instead of a poweremote battle.

[nauta]

"HOWEVER, my PC is (due to X reason) essentially incapable of feeling rage."

In what situation would this ever happen.

Except due to magick.

Even quiet somber people can get pissed off less they are mentally unable.

Bolded the relevant part. Yes, it is a unique situation but it goes to show that staff forced feelings/thoughts can be a minefield.

You don't have to react predictably. But you have to react in a way that doesn't insist on someone meddling with your mind.

Here are some possibilities:

You are clearly conflicted about your feelings and that induces further rage.
You stay calm despite exterior conditions
You become confused and possibly ill as a result of the internal conflict. *barf*
Rage and calm cancel each other out and perhaps a third emotion takes sway. Such as fear or disgust?

I had a case like this:

Code Select Expand


You feel a shiver in your spine (or something).
[then a few seconds later]
You didn't feel that.


I wasn't -quite- sure how to deal with that.  But the reason I bring it up: you could just do: feel calm rather than rage, in fact.

I'd like to see more feels/thinks from staff/psions/whomever.  I tend to not use think/feel that often unless I know I have an audience.

[Riev]

I had a case like this:

Code Select Expand


You feel a shiver in your spine (or something).
[then a few seconds later]
You didn't feel that.


Having been victim to this a couple times, take it into consideration, future Psis. You can't just say "You didn't see that" or something of that nature. Play with it a bit. Even a "You think: Am I cold right now?" to play it off, or something.

I've gotten the "You feel it was probably nothing" a number of times, and I've had to say "Yup, probably was nothing. La de da da da".

[Armaddict]

I'd still like to hear what exactly 'outs' a psionicist under these conditions, because the inference being picked up by me is that essentially, due to some or most reacting melodramatically and pre-emptively, that none of us should ever assume we can ever figure it out.  The general mood is that even if they fail the psionic skill, it shouldn't out them...is that accurate, or am I right in saying that a critical fail should indeed have the chance of outing them, or that consistent lack of regard for the subtlety under which a mindbender works should start to steer things their way?

It's a powerful role when done correctly.  If someone takes the time to eavesdrop and learn on characters to correctly influence them, then they can essentially manipulate anyone.  My qualm comes with someone who essentially types in an echo that shows a complete lack of regard for the character they're influencing and then getting butthurt when it doesn't get 100% accepted.  I don't mean that it's grounds to completely ignore it, but if you take a super loyal character and decide to make them feel like doing a betrayal act out of the blue, you should probably expect some serious pushback.  Meanwhile, if you eavesdrop, and find their little things that they pick at, and aren't satisfied with, and make those things irritate them more over time, and implant those thoughts into events where they're unrelated...you are now in the power position of a psionicist.

I always regarded it as a high-karma role because of -that- potential.  Not because they could just inject thoughts willy-nilly and the expectation was for it to be utterly adhered to.  Also, I've never regarded them as utterly shielded from passive discovery either...we've had a lot of things in Armageddon that were referred to as 'like the boogie men', and I've never seen any case of enforcement over those who knew IC of the existence based solely off of new clans being opened, etc.

If you're doing it well, I'm going to play right along with it.  If you're doing it poorly, I'm going to have the affect happen but make the pushback that I find utterly reasonable.  And if the skillcheck says you fail and I notice something wrong, I'll notice something's wrong (though that jump to being wormed is a big one that I don't usually make unless there's other IC rumor of a worm, and then it's usually a -worry- rather than a certainty).  If the skillcheck gives me your sdesc, I consider that the physics of the game telling me you just got -caught-, son.