regarding 'a random thought' in ATS

[Jingo]

Jingo, I agree, that quote is a bit out of context with my original post.

Which is that forced feelings/thoughts may not always be realistic to the situation and should be offered carefully.

If it's a psionicist or XYZ creature, that is one thing, but phrasing is important in the echo itself to help make the scene more fluid.

As it is, I froze up due to the directly conflicting emotions - and ended up just having my character do just that. Complete with headclutch.

But it made the scene awkwardly written for me, so I'm pushing for staff / psionicists to consider how their echos are phrased.

A little can go a long way into making the scene more of a collaborative effort instead of a poweremote battle.

You can't assume that a psion has complete information. In fact, they're probably not even privy to any information except for maybe a handful of thoughts and feels. So disconnect is going to happen. I remember in a similar situation, I was just trying to keep someone (I don't know who or why) from getting killed so I made the decision to attempt to flush them into a state of calm. And while I admit it was against the grain, the fact that they immediately put up a barrier was extremely disappointing.

[650Booger]

I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough. 

[Jingo]

I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.

It is actually the best way to get a psionicist player's attention. For good or ill.

[Armaddict]

Oh, I agree.  Like I said, it can be akin to the vNPC's who decide or don't decide to call soldiers.  It's something to notice, or it's not.

I haven't been deeply involved with a bender in a loooong time, so this is largely a moot point for me.  I don't think I've been the focus of one for ages.

But I'm just trying to clarify, because what's been presented has thusfar seemed very one-sided and quick to demonize, and I want to insure that there are indeed instances where things can be 'found out'.  And I don't think everyone being told that a critical fail should just be given a pass is exactly healthy, either.

I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of earth trembling.  I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of temperature drops.  I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of feeling hands in my pockets.  I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of strange touches through the Way...until now.  And this is very akin to what I've been talking about, where the code is purposely designed to give me information that I'm apparently supposed to ignore, which makes the design of it odd.

I think most of it should be reacted to, but dismissed, but they are there to urge care in the psionicist and the ever-present knowledge that they -can- be caught if they're not being careful.  Someone being targeted and repeatedly noticing these 'off' things is legitimately obligated to start feeling some concern and start the beginnings of investigation...which may lead to the need to end their investigation via whatever means you have.

Again, this understanding was why it's high-karma in my head, not because they're super-powerful who can instantly make things happen exactly as they want because they type in a think for you.  They are expected to use these things in a certain way that is simply easier to disburse to more trusted players.

I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.

It is actually the best way to get a psionicist player's attention. For good or ill.

I also don't think or feel enough, but will usually do so once I know there's an audience, like nauta said.

[Jingo]

Oh, I agree.  Like I said, it can be akin to the vNPC's who decide or don't decide to call soldiers.  It's something to notice, or it's not.

I haven't been deeply involved with a bender in a loooong time, so this is largely a moot point for me.  I don't think I've been the focus of one for ages.

But I'm just trying to clarify, because what's been presented has thusfar seemed very one-sided and quick to demonize, and I want to insure that there are indeed instances where things can be 'found out'.  And I don't think everyone being told that a critical fail should just be given a pass is exactly healthy, either.

I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of earth trembling.  I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of temperature drops.  I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of feeling hands in my pockets.  I've never been told I should dismiss echoes of strange touches through the Way...until now.  And this is very akin to what I've been talking about, where the code is purposely designed to give me information that I'm apparently supposed to ignore, which makes the design of it odd.

I think most of it should be reacted to, but dismissed, but they are there to urge care in the psionicist and the ever-present knowledge that they -can- be caught if they're not being careful.  Someone being targeted and repeatedly noticing these 'off' things is legitimately obligated to start feeling some concern and start the beginnings of investigation...which may lead to the need to end their investigation via whatever means you have.

Again, this understanding was why it's high-karma in my head, not because they're super-powerful who can instantly make things happen exactly as they want because they type in a think for you.  They are expected to use these things in a certain way that is simply easier to disburse to more trusted players.

I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.

It is actually the best way to get a psionicist player's attention. For good or ill.

I also don't think or feel enough, but will usually do so once I know there's an audience, like nauta said.

I think a fair way to know if something is up, is to use a barrier. Barriers won't stop psi powers. But they're a good way to alert a player that they're being tampered with.

This is how I would deal with it.

Your barrier drops unexpectedly.
Your mind whirls and you can't seem to walk straight.
Soon after you have an inescapable urge to do X.

I would say that taken apart, none of those things should elicit suspicion. But together they might.

[Armaddict]

I dislike the use of barrier as a mindbender diagnostic, but would agree that if you had your barrier up for some other reason and that happened, yes.

Mostly, I'm not looking to argue -too- hard on it, as much as soften what I perceive as kind of an absolute stance on it.  Basically to make room for healthy, thought-out suspicions, but not for the instantaneous 'huge jump' of 'HOLY SHIT THAT'S A MINDBENDER ECHO!' or 'HEY, I DIDN'T TYPE THAT!  TIME FOR MY CHARACTER TO REALIZE THEY'RE BEING BENDED WITH FIVE MINUTES OF THINKS.'

Agreed in spirit, picking at semantics to clarify the messages.

[Ath]

I'm starting to realize that I don't think/feel nearly often enough.

Some of the most fun experiences I've had in this game was because of a Psion and yes, this does get their attention.  Good reactive players are like crack for a Psion. 

I will give one of my favorite stories that has to do with one of my characters and a Psion.  I was playing Corporal Zant of the AoD.  One of his lovers was a Psion, Zant never knew at all.  Zant's raise to Corporal was because he was so good at finding criminals, notably a Nilazi and a rival of this Psions, another Psion.  He just thought the girl was really good at gathering information, she was a whore after all.  Zant would get these people with a Templar at the time that he was loyal to.  OOC I knew they had to be a Psion (I think I may have been staff at the time, I can't remember), but I played into it.  Sometimes my thoughts and feelings were manipulated, but it fit so well into Zant's asshole nature.

This was one of my most fun characters, he was corrupt, he was being manipulated, but at the same time though he could have gotten away with murder in the open because the Templar loved him so much for making him look good.  All because of this amazing Psion character.

In any case, I appreciate if any and all read up on the doc and let me know what you think.  It's appreciate it.  So far I am happy to see the positive feedback.

[bardlyone]

I thought it read well.

In the past I've been guilty of being overly reactive, largely due to a lack of documentation and discussion on the topic, and could stand to improve in that area.

So... any psions who might be able to guess who I'm playing, I volunteer as tribute. >.>

In all seriousness, it is good that it touches upon matters like that which are too sekrit to talk about much on the forums under normal circumstance because I'm betting I'm not the only one who learned to be extremely reactive mostly because of other people their pcs know IG taking a similar tack and not having docs to fall back on which counter it.

I think it would be a neat/interesting solution if there were a flag you could turn on to simply not get echoes from failed psionics (from the whole fool the player/fool the character line of reasoning). While it's more likely to make me think/feel when I get an echo that seems psionic in nature (ones which I assume are only due to a failure, though I could be wrong), I understand how some people might freeze up under a similar circumstance.

I would go so far as to suggest that it should be tacked onto the 'what you know' helps on where you're from, so that people who are new or don't think to look for it, see it and know what the default 'acceptable' level of reaction/interaction is. It might also be helpful to include an example or two when editing it down.

[Jihelu]

How I feel:
A psion who makes you feel/think/do something that doesnt make sense?
Inner emotions fight over it and you probably don't do it.

A psion who makes you feel/think/do something in a way you, your character, would do it because of proper research/paying attention?
Go for it without a second thought.

[Lizzie]

How I feel:
A psion who makes you feel/think/do something that doesnt make sense?
Inner emotions fight over it and you probably don't do it.

A psion who makes you feel/think/do something in a way you, your character, would do it because of proper research/paying attention?
Go for it without a second thought.

Agreed. However my point was:
A psion who makes you think/feel/do something that is 100% opposite and contrary to what your character might ever think/feel/do in that particular circumstance?
Assume it's a mindbender who isn't nearly as clever as he thinks he is, and RP out that assumption.
You don't even necessarily know WHO the mindbender is. You just know it is one, because no way, no how, would your character have ever come up with that thought/feel/action without outside intervention.

[Jihelu]

Wait a minute.
My last post said I felt something.


Mind bender confirmed.
I'm so funny


I feel like
"Oh I just thought something really weird/stupid" and immediately going "It's a mind bender" Is one of those
"It only happens sometimes" things. Like if you actually know about them.
If you don't I could see it just as being "That was really stupid of me to think"

Assuming something you think is a mindbender implies you know what they can do/know they actually exist/know they can harm you inside the GLORIOUS HIGHLORDS CITY.

[manipura]

Even if the thought your character has is 100% uncharacteristic, I still don't think most PCs should be assuming it is a psion.

[a french mans shirt]

I always assume its a mindworm when I get a thought that isn't put in by me, otherwise I think I would lose my shit.

[Armaddict]

Even if the thought your character has is 100% uncharacteristic, I still don't think most PCs should be assuming it is a psion.

I agree, I'm speaking specifically about the non-successes and non-normals.  The light touches, the strange jitters.  I'm under the assumption that they are specifically Way-Oriented in nature, because I don't know what a 'light touch' on your mind feels like aside from another Way-feeling.  And even those, I think, are just oddities, until such a time as they are piling up, when they may become far-fetched worries, etc.

Again, I think it takes a long term consistency to start having it breach the realm of 'I think I might be going crazy, because I think someone else is messing with my head.'

Either that or a critical fail after those events are happening.  Mostly, I don't think they are under a shroud of protection because they work through the way.  I just think they're safer than we let them be -right now-, with the extreme, immediate conclusions.

[manipura]

Even if the thought your character has is 100% uncharacteristic, I still don't think most PCs should be assuming it is a psion.

I agree, I'm speaking specifically about the non-successes and non-normals.  The light touches, the strange jitters.  I'm under the assumption that they are specifically Way-Oriented in nature, because I don't know what a 'light touch' on your mind feels like aside from another Way-feeling.  And even those, I think, are just oddities, until such a time as they are piling up, when they may become far-fetched worries, etc.

Again, I think it takes a long term consistency to start having it breach the realm of 'I think I might be going crazy, because I think someone else is messing with my head.'

Either that or a critical fail after those events are happening.  Mostly, I don't think they are under a shroud of protection because they work through the way.  I just think they're safer than we let them be -right now-, with the extreme, immediate conclusions.

Oh, that wasn't in response to successes and fails and anything like that, but specifically responding to:

A psion who makes you think/feel/do something that is 100% opposite and contrary to what your character might ever think/feel/do in that particular circumstance?
Assume it's a mindbender who isn't nearly as clever as he thinks he is, and RP out that assumption.

I should have used quotes in the first response.

I think there are lots of excuses you can come up with to explain why your PC is having a completely backward thought, ranging from drank too much to too many hits on the head during sparring to sleep deprivation to literally starting to go crazy (if it's been something you've experienced frequently).  Unless your character has had someone with knowledge of these things (which I'm thinking is a select handful of people) then I don't think they should even be considering it as an explanation.

[Armaddict]

Ah.  Yes.  Agreed.

If the skill succeeds, it succeeds.  The oddity of it should be roleplayed around, but not treated as if it was a thief who just nicked your blade with watch on.  They succeeded on it.  The same way I say failures should be something that can be used, successes should be something where you take into account that it was a -success-.

Ideally, I'd like psionicists to learn more so that the force-thinks are more relevant and fit in, but I really can't expect that unless they let me know they're monitoring in the first place so that I can give them some thinks to go off of.

[solera]

I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?

[Reiloth]

I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?

It sort of fits the Navajo regard for witchcraft (1950's terminology, but by modern nomenclature 'black magic')...To say someone 'knows' something of witchcraft, or that they might know a witch, is an offensive accusation that they themselves are a witch. Surely, to know of a witch, or to know someone who casts 'black magic', or anything about witchcraft or its trappings, means you yourself are a witch.

So to say 'A Mindbender was in my head! I swear it!' should almost be falling on your own sword. At least, if I were a dumb commoner, I wouldn't go around blabbing that there's a mind worm in my head.

[a french mans shirt]

I always assume its a mindworm when I get a thought that isn't put in by me, otherwise I think I would lose my shit.

Now, if I were drunk one night or something and not responding to a situation appropriately, then yes, staff should probably be giving me a think.

Do people really start mindworm witchhunts based on the fact that one does a thing in your mind, probably honestly just to git gud? I suppose if you're the only noble during your playtime and you're bored out of your mind with nothing better to do.

I would try to OOCly give criminals/rogues/benders a chance; in the form of not being sure what they look like after you've met them with their hood up and things like that. They've got it rough as it is, always being hunted by people who literally don't have anything else to do due to the game not being perfect.

[Lizzie]

I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?

No, because rape is against the OOC rules of the game. Being mindbent is not. Let's not go there, okay?

[Bahliker]

I just allow strange thoughts to enter or initiate my thought stream, and keep rethinking them until they fit better. Glaring foreign ones, I suppose my PC would think they were either flashbacks to a nightmare, or then, a sign of a 'bender/ spice / insanity. Admitting you had a witch in your head would be like admitting you had been raped by one?

No, because rape is against the OOC rules of the game. Being mindbent is not. Let's not go there, okay?

I have to believe you misunderstood here because bringing up that game rule when another player makes a comparison for the purpose of discussion on the gdb seems unnecessary. I for one love Solera's approach and I've seen something similar played out by somebody that figured out they'd been bent. Deep, lasting shame and a feeling of violation. A pain and an impotent anger that will never go away, even if you find the culprit.  It was the best.

One of the problems that causes a lot of the complaints here is the skill tree. That and, yes, it's hard mode. Player reactions to fail echoes is like 25% of the cause. Even so, I stand with Armaddict on reacting to the fails. For intrusive thoughts, to each his own. Please don't complain about people that don't play up to your standards.

[Lizzie]

Player reactions to fail echoes is like 25% of the cause. Even so, I stand with Armaddict on reacting to the fails. For intrusive thoughts, to each his own. Please don't complain about people that don't play up to your standards.

And yet, in the same paragraph, you did exactly that. I'll react to fail echoes however it makes sense for my character to react to them, at any given moment, given the circumstances. If you observe a reaction in game that you feel is inappropriate, then send a player complaint.

[Jingo]

Do people really start mindworm witchhunts based on the fact that one does a thing in your mind, probably honestly just to git gud?

[Jingo]

One of the problems that causes a lot of the complaints here is the skill tree. That and, yes, it's hard mode. Player reactions to fail echoes is like 25% of the cause. Even so, I stand with Armaddict on reacting to the fails. For intrusive thoughts, to each his own. Please don't complain about people that don't play up to your standards.

It's really only hard mode if you play it as intended. It's easy enough to do if you figure out how to meta it. And that's what an attitude like this is asking for.

Oh. And yes. I will complain. I will complain loudly.

[Armaddict]

And that's what an attitude like this is asking for.

This isn't attitude.  This is literally the game world telling the recipient what information they have.  As noted, they should treat it for what it is, but it -is- a note that something out of the ordinary is felt.  The difference is that we're agreeing that the jump from 'Hmm, that felt funny.' to 'I must have a mindworm in my head' is a fantastic leap, but when you say things like this you give me impression that you don't think anyone should ever take action based off of echoes we're given, regardless of whether you're actually succeeding or failing.

I don't go around playing thieves and saying that I have no choice but to meta because everyone is arbitrarily deciding that when they see the information given from a critical fail they never take into account that they should doubt the information the game gave them.  That seems to be what you're insisting should happen here.

This is a MUD.  Things are skill based and written in code.  If critical fails shouldn't reveal the mindbender, or rather, give the opportunity for the revelation, then the game shouldn't have any reason to provide that information.  Players can still play around it as desired, but this is not a risk-free role where you prance happily through people's brains and never have to worry about failure.  You're one of the most hunted creatures in the Known, just like sorcery.  People -do- know mindbenders exist, they just don't assume every thought in their head is planted by one.  But a critical failure is the beginnings of something being -known- to be wrong, by design of the game.

This can be modified as seeing fit, but I'm not going to ignore the game poking at me and giving me information about things just because you like when people let you continue to be mindbender.  I will play along with successes to the best of my ability, insofar as there isn't an expectation that I'll suddenly drop all prior character trends because you supplanted a thought; I'll have the thought, fit it into the current mindset, and if things mesh well, you may very well influence real actions, and I will play along with failures the same way I do any other 'hidden' skill failure in the game.

Essentially, you seem to feel jipped by skill failure, rather than viewing it as an integral part of the MUD, where I'm saying skill successes should definitely be treated as successes and not lead to the rooting out of a psionicist, but failures should also be treated like failures and reacted to in a sensible way.  If that leads to you making the threat that you need to meta and twink it out for the role to be worth it to you, then so be it, but keep in mind the ability to resist that urge and play the way you have been might very well be the reason you get to play them.