I think it'd be interesting if long serving lifesworn PCs were given new skills appropriate to their job.
Say one every 4 months RL played.
Examples.
Ranger Amos is now a private in the arm. He's been private for 4 months RL. He can choose something from the Arm of the Dragon skill pool.
Options: Subdue, Kick, Bash, Scan
Hunting clans:
Hunt, Archery, Scan, Direction Sense
Calvary clans:
Ride, Direction Sense, Charge, Trample
If you already have a skill, riding for example, it could boost you to riding with knees.
It'd be an interesting benefit to lifesworn and something to work towards.
You could just personally pick one of these as a goal and apply for it using the same logic, but a coded feature would be nice.
Having any skill develop after chargen outside the parameters of your guild/subguild is pretty difficult, if not impossible without a spec app prior to spawn.
I actually like the clan idea though.
Yes, I love this idea.
I remember years and years ago I used to have an assassin/hunter in kadius. He was taught by the best for years in hunting/skinning techniques. He practically became leader of his unit. And despite everything, getting a freaking hide off an animal was ridiculously rare. I swear to this day I believe that apprentice skinning on ranger is many times better than journeyman skinning on hunter sub-guild.
Arguably the staff at the time was not totally against the idea of just changing my character's main guild to ranger, but a few extra relevant skills or boosts to life-sworn who have been in the service for ic years would be a good benefit.
I like the idea of being able to change skills after chargen, either by giving up one skill to gain a new one, or whatever... Not sure I like the whole clan based system though. Seems pretty arbitrary to me. Being in a clan certainly can help you learn a skill, but so can any other IC pursuit.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 20, 2015, 06:39:28 PM
I like the idea of being able to change skills after chargen, either by giving up one skill to gain a new one, or whatever... Not sure I like the whole clan based system though. Seems pretty arbitrary to me. Being in a clan certainly can help you learn a skill, but so can any other IC pursuit.
Not totally arbitrary. It's one of those perks that can appeal to people in an OOC sense, making clan-life more attractive. Many people avoid clans because there just isn't much reason to join them once you have sufficient OOC knowledge of the game.
I'm of the mind frame that we can probably learn anything given the right talent with enough experience and mastery. Combat (really ANY) classes should get to the next level when they've mastered everything.
I like this idea. Rewarding lifesworn with more.
I strongly approve of this idea. It would help being clanned have the allure that it should. Also when you end up in a situation you -never- foresaw when you rolled up your PC, skills that would be used every day could be eventually developed.
I think this is a great idea and would serve as a coded, IC example of what makes people in clans more superior. It would give them the edge that in game terms they should have, but when it comes to playing almost never do. A Borsail Wyvern should be a more skilled swordsman than some random indie hunter, but the coded reality is if the Wyvern doesn't have anyone to spar with the indie hunter will always be the more superior fighter.
I disagree that a Borsail Wyvern should be a more skilled swordsman than an indie hunter of equal years experience.
The Borsail Wyvern should be more skilled in working as a unit, capturing slaves, and a variety of other skills...but pure swordplay is something that comes with regular use. The Wyvern might have just as much regular use, or perhaps even less, than that independent hunter. This is further reinforced by the fact that the independent hunter is using these sword skills in real, life or death combat. If a hunter lives 3 years, surviving regular life and death combat with their sword, it'd stand to reason that hunter would learn more than the Wyvern who just sits around and spars all day.
The benefits of being in a clan are not some kind of amazing skills in most cases. The benefits are generally superior equipment, safe training, luxuries such as food and lodging, and social status. I think it'd be neat if some clans taught their most trusted members skills that might be more rare and special, but that would be on a clan by clan basis, as not every clan would have these skills nor would they share them.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 21, 2015, 03:11:59 AM
I disagree that a Borsail Wyvern should be a more skilled swordsman than an indie hunter of equal years experience.
The Borsail Wyvern should be more skilled in working as a unit, capturing slaves, and a variety of other skills...but pure swordplay is something that comes with regular use. The Wyvern might have just as much regular use, or perhaps even less, than that independent hunter. This is further reinforced by the fact that the independent hunter is using these sword skills in real, life or death combat. If a hunter lives 3 years, surviving regular life and death combat with their sword, it'd stand to reason that hunter would learn more than the Wyvern who just sits around and spars all day.
The benefits of being in a clan are not some kind of amazing skills in most cases. The benefits are generally superior equipment, safe training, luxuries such as food and lodging, and social status. I think it'd be neat if some clans taught their most trusted members skills that might be more rare and special, but that would be on a clan by clan basis, as not every clan would have these skills nor would they share them.
So
"Yes but only super trusted people and it be an ic thing?" type deal? Or am I misreading you.
Let me it try it another way, since the Borsail thing was meant as an example and not a factual statement.
There are people who are part of large institutions that have sophisticated training and equipment with access to certain knowledge that is restricted or largely unknown by the average joe. Whether Borsail is or isn't one of these, or whether their wyverns are or are not, is beside the point. I didn't make my example for purposes of arguing for Borsail's favor, or any one specific clan. Players who are lifesworn and part of an organization that has advanced standards should have some form of edge over indies. Right now they don't. And I wouldn't be the first poster here to observe that being a part of a clan is often less advantageous than hoofing it alone. But the lack of advantage is purely a coded phenomenon and in no way part of the actual storyline of the game.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 21, 2015, 03:11:59 AM
The benefits are generally superior equipment, safe training, luxuries such as food and lodging, and social status. I think it'd be neat if some clans taught their most trusted members skills that might be more rare and special, but that would be on a clan by clan basis, as not every clan would have these skills nor would they share them.
I don't think the original poster was suggesting every single clan without exception should have one of these bonuses. He's just throwing it out there as a neat idea. One which I applaud and support.
house borsail gets +20 bonus to subdue
byn gets -2 penalty to wisdom, +15 alcohol resistance, +10 climb
Quote from: MeTekillot on February 21, 2015, 03:59:43 AM
byn gets -2 penalty to wisdom, +800 alcohol resistance, +10 climb
Sounds about right from what I've seen.
Quote from: Refugee on February 20, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
I strongly approve of this idea. It would help being clanned have the allure that it should. Also when you end up in a situation you -never- foresaw when you rolled up your PC, skills that would be used every day could be eventually developed.
Dig it. Would give that ex bynner ex salarri hunter soldier something to show for making the journey.
Quote from: i love toilets on February 21, 2015, 04:16:57 AM
Quote from: Refugee on February 20, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
I strongly approve of this idea. It would help being clanned have the allure that it should. Also when you end up in a situation you -never- foresaw when you rolled up your PC, skills that would be used every day could be eventually developed.
This pretty much happened to me!
Oh, for sure. Most of my PCs that I have a lifeplan for end up dying after 2 hours and 1 minute played. On the other hand, my other PCs end up being strange things like pickpocket/bards in a hunting clan or ranger/nomads serving as aides in a city clan.
What'd be kind of neat is if you actually chose your guild/subguild after a year played. This would simplify the chargen process and partly address some of the ideas in this thread!
Quote from: nauta on February 21, 2015, 10:03:57 AM
What'd be kind of neat is if you actually chose your guild/subguild after a year played. This would simplify the chargen process and partly address some of the ideas in this thread!
Cool idea...
To add: maybe if you were in a clan at the time, you'd have access to an additional set of
clan subguilds that were more reflective of the lifestyle. Things like a "soldier" subguild, or a "slaver" subguild, or a "House hunter" subguild, or a "sifter" subguild, or a "field physician" subguild. Just slightly different and unique variations on the existing subguilds that would render your character unique.
Note: I've read that it's hard for the staff to change your subguild, so that's why it's disallowed after chargen even if you've made a mistake. Maybe adding a subguild to a non-subguilded character is an easier process since you don't have to extract the old subguild first.
I like the premise but not the actual suggestion. I do think long-lived clannies do deserve perks of some kind or another but I think we should gravitate away from skills and think a bit more meta.
Jingo would be totally cool if long lived lieutenants got some ewww shiny powerups like copper weapons, supr specialized gear and maybe differently echoed combat styles etc.
I could also see combat skill -boosts- handed out via rank as well.
In general though, I'm not happy with the status quo as it is. It's too damn easy to get good at fighting just by leaving the city to hunt. Realistically anyone with specialized combat training should be able to trash even a big-game hunter.
Quote from: Refugee on February 20, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
I strongly approve of this idea. It would help being clanned have the allure that it should. Also when you end up in a situation you -never- foresaw when you rolled up your PC, skills that would be used every day could be eventually developed.
Quote from: Suhuy on February 21, 2015, 02:53:31 AM
I think this is a great idea and would serve as a coded, IC example of what makes people in clans more superior. It would give them the edge that in game terms they should have, but when it comes to playing almost never do. A Borsail Wyvern should be a more skilled swordsman than some random indie hunter, but the coded reality is if the Wyvern doesn't have anyone to spar with the indie hunter will always be the more superior fighter.
This is an excellent idea for basically all the reasons above. Think it would be a huge plus to going for clanned, and make being clanned something people actually compete for again. I see no downsides. +100.
(http://emojipedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/hundred-points-symbol.png)
Truth is, if staff catches that indy hunter twinking too badly, they might just have some rather "unfortunate" rolls, meanwhile, Amos the ruf circle machine can train his skills in relative safety. I agree that clans should get perks, I do not agree with the "always superior" notion. Clans are already far too powerful and untouchable socially as it is, they do not need to be more codedly powerful, in my opinion... that said, I -would- like to see skill additions in the event that someone actually fails at a skill -enough-, such as, enough RL months spent as a pickpocket or merchant trying to pull someone out of a fight, say with a low cap around high jman/low advanced, that could, eventually, be learned like a language skill (ever tried increasing these? It's a pain if you don't start with them in your skill list, especially when there's no one to practice with).
I'd think skills you can't perform without the skill in your skill list, like hide/pick/crafts/etc. would eventually, over IG years, be picked up, if you watch/scanned/listened long enough to actually observe what's going on when someone else fails a skill-check, but I don't see any reason for it to be restricted to clans, unless the power of clans to ruin plots for indies is downgraded dramatically. As it is, the odds are stacked heavily in favor of clans, if this is not working, I don't see how yet more "perks" are going to do anything to "fix" the situation for more than a handful of players who play for the already present perks. The reason clans aren't attractive isn't that there aren't enough perks, it's that there's not enough leeway to explore your character concept fully, and not enough say how much free time you get, or what you can do with your free time.
EDIT: Also, pay raises for clans. Seriously, the economy needs some major trickling here. It'd be nice if houses bought materials from independents or others from other clans more often. As it is, depending on the clan, some of the rules on how you can make and spend money are pretty stifling, considering the pay is barely enough to afford drinks over an extended period of time, much less an apartment.
Clans are untouchable and too powerful -- as opposed to? Almost every clan in-game is a hundreds (and sometimes thousand+) year old organization, with all the experience, power, and support that garners.
Quote from: Majikal on February 21, 2015, 04:17:39 AM
Dig it. Would give that ex bynner ex salarri hunter soldier something to show for making the journey.
I think the OPs suggestion is for lifesworn members, otherwise you would have people clan hopping to gain skills.
Which. . . would probably be a thing that happens. People join the military IRL then go works as mercenaries once their stint is done.
If this change goes live I'm playing a kuraci celf so they can get ride and make Zalanthas divide by zero.
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 21, 2015, 04:57:12 PM
Truth is, if staff catches that indy hunter twinking too badly, they might just have some rather "unfortunate" rolls, meanwhile, Amos the ruf circle machine can train his skills in relative safety.
Uhh? Not sure what you mean by this, but staff just animate the world realistically around you, they don't enforce twinking policy through IC means(at least, not anymore). That would be stupid. If, say, you're grinding skills on a bunch of elves in an elven area of the 'rinth, they may spawn a bunch of affiliated elves on you to hunt your ass down, but that is different. They won't just spawn a Mekillot on you because you're abusing the salting code, or suddenly reduce your forage skill.
That would lead to players complaining, and then staff having to deal with player complaining... a bunch of work they don't want to deal with.
It'd be cool if it also affected Indy Clans of a certain size/potential.
Then I would say rock on.
Quote from: MeTekillot on February 21, 2015, 05:24:21 PM
Clans are untouchable and too powerful -- as opposed to? Almost every clan in-game is a hundreds (and sometimes thousand+) year old organization, with all the experience, power, and support that garners.
Exactly. With that kind of backing, and the training structure in place, who really needs more coded skills? While I like the idea of being able to expand your skill list with enough dedication, I just don't see how this fixes the "too many indies" problem that I believe to be an illusion. If we expect clans to have PC numbers to reflect their vNPC lifesworn population, then I believe we have more alarming problems with the number of c-elves vs. breeds/dwarves/half-giants. There's a simple solution with some of the stricter clans that involves relaxing the iron grip on your playtime a little even before they hit the lifesworn part (to improve morale so they eventually DO reach that point), not everyone has all day to play just waiting for that one/two/three IG days off where they can get their tavern-sitting on, or other socializer activities, or mudsex, or whatever floats your boat.
This doesn't really involve a change to the code, even, simply a few small tweaks to the docs to give players a little more control over their time. Not everyone wants to spar/patrol/watch a tower all day every day just because it seems reasonable from a certain perspective. Granted, I'm sure a PC leader could have leeway to give extra leave days to certain recruits and above as a reward for performing well at their tasks, although I could be wrong and they could be hamstrung by staff into permanent "Wat are u doing? Get back 2 ruff circle!" mode that I've seen in the past (not singling anyone out here, I realize it's good RP, I also realize that it's infuriating on an OOC level to some of the people receiving the treatment over a long enough time period). I understand discipline is, in some ways, part of the job, it's also, not fun to play ALL THE DAMN TIME, except for a certain type of person.
Exactly. Playtimes tend to be low for fellow clanners in GMH or other clans. And sparring all the time gets really old. This is a coded benefit to having all that virtual backing and support -- if you're lifesworn, a veteran hunter or merc or whatever will be more likely to want to spend some virtual training time with you, to give you more skills, make you more surviveable, etc. It makes complete sense to me.
Quote from: Patuk on February 21, 2015, 05:37:13 PM
If this change goes live I'm playing a kuraci celf so they can get ride and make Zalanthas divide by zero.
Pretty sure an elf with the riding skill is do-able already. You just can't use it. Look at all the desert elf Rangers.
No clue, my one delf was a warrior because I found it wasteful to grab a class that is partially defined by great ride and then not ride. I just thought it would be funny.
Quote from: Patuk on February 21, 2015, 08:25:10 PM
No clue, my one delf was a warrior because I found it wasteful to grab a class that is partially defined by great ride and then not ride. I just thought it would be funny.
Ranger is defined by so much more than ride. A warrior delf definitely works though.
Quote from: Down Under on February 21, 2015, 05:48:20 PM
It'd be cool if it also affected Indy Clans of a certain size/potential.
Then I would say rock on.
500 purplish salts = 5% of random stat raise.
Like many discussions on the GDB, I think this one is between "If you follow the background of the game, and strictly adhere to the game world, this is something that is likely to happen" and "Why should PCs get more benefits than they do currently?"
In my opinion, its a game. Part of creating and maintaining the game world, is having a game that is worthwhile playing. If 5 people want something, and the other 195 are on the fence... probably won't be a big priority. And unfortunately, the GDB is a smaller-than-perceived percentage of the players.
Not sure why you say smaller than perceived when perception is going to be different for everyone. I have no idea the number of players who also use the GDB, do you?
Further more the GDB could only be 20% of the player-base, but still would give useful data in determining how many people like or dislike an idea. Not sure what that all has to do with this idea though, it's not like this thread is a poll.
I don't get why anyone thinks they should get more skills just because they're in a clan. Your character comes with the capacity to do a whole lot of stuff by virtue of the main guild - and the capacity to do even more stuff, that might be completely unrelated to the main guild, by virtue of the subguild (or extended subguild as the case may be).
If you want to play the realism game (which I know so many people do), here's realism:
In reality, you can't play a mage at all. And no matter how dextrous and agile and wise you are, you will not become a master crafter unless you have an actual talent for crafting. Not everyone has that creative bent. You might make a damned fine accountant. Or a genius brain surgeon. But stick a pair of knitting needles in your hands with a ball of yarn at your side, and you spend the next hour just staring at them, drool dripping down your chin.
The same goes for Arm, except with the lovely addition of UNrealistic fantasy fun.
I can be a mage, and become a genius drovian who masters the entire element. And maybe I can dabble a bit in sewing silk. But I won't have the creativity needed to design something unique. I'll only be able to make things off a pattern.
Or I could be a ranger - and know the Known World better than anyone else in my city, know the insides and outside of every creature, be able to pass safely through dangerous terrain wearing nothing but a loincloth and a pair of sunslits.. and maybe I could also filch a few sids from the pocket of the guy who passes me on my way to the bar. But I won't ever become a jeweler, because I just never had the knack for it. I'm observant, which means I might be able to tell you what it's worth since I've spent a lot of time selling stuff to people and have gotten a feel for numbers. But I can't MAKE anything pretty, because my talents are more in the line of killing stuff, not making stuff. Out of necessity I've figured out how to make arrows, but I don't have the creativity needed to design a new shaft, or cut a new style of arrowhead. I probably won't ever really be very good at bashing people in the head, because MY talents are in stealth - not in "in your face" conflict. I'm not very good at being physically bold.
That's how I see the skills in Armageddon. They are the *capacity* to learn. You don't have to learn all the skills that are available to you on your skills list. You can, but you don't have to. There's nothing stopping you from choosing to NOT get good at your auxilliary skills, until you are promoted in your clan. And then when you get promoted, you can choose to RP this promotion making it easier for you to learn new things. But those are things you already have the capacity to learn. You don't wake up one day and suddenly have the ability to figure-skate, when your ankles have been weak all your life.
Hard to draw a line like this, when best I can tell, there's a good deal of the population that wants nothing to do with being clanned. In my experience, clans already have very strong benefits, and they have draw backs just the same. Join the Salarr, get amazing things, relative freedom to wander anywhere in the world(assuming you don't catch an arrow to the throat...or knee). Join Kadius, do much the same, minus the +amazing-no-one-else-can-have-this-kill-gear, while getting instead the +looks-amazing-and-has-all-sorts-of-strange-things-stuff. Join the Arm or the Legion(I assume not because you wanna sew) and you've got sparring dummies, which have heavy potential to be used to get really good at what it is you do(which indies do not have), plenty of sparring partners, as well as all the leftover gear of your various spiritual ancestors in those groups whose shoes you are now filling...both literally and figuratively. Obviously, Byn doesn't play a point in this with it being about Lifesworn sorts. Cause there's really never a 'lifesworn' Bynner.
Editted: I take it back, there are lifesworn Bynners, but they're only lifesworn because they joined and then died to that spider nest or bat attack. Now they're just dead.
Quote from: ABoredLion on February 22, 2015, 03:33:40 PM
Hard to draw a line like this, when best I can tell, there's a good deal of the population that wants nothing to do with being clanned.
That's pretty hard to tell - I think a lot of the vociferous people on the GDB lean away from clans, but I'd be curious what the numbers actually are.
Quote from: nauta on February 22, 2015, 03:40:41 PM
Quote from: ABoredLion on February 22, 2015, 03:33:40 PM
Hard to draw a line like this, when best I can tell, there's a good deal of the population that wants nothing to do with being clanned.
That's pretty hard to tell - I think a lot of the vociferous people on the GDB lean away from clans, but I'd be curious what the numbers actually are.
I agree, I'd like to see the numbers. Finding unclanned people, especially that will work together for a common goal, or at least provide goods, services and coin to one another in exchange for services, can be difficult to find, especially if you'e a lowly grebber with a bunch of rocks trying to make connections only to be told "Thanks, but my House provides for all my needs".
On a side note, the problem with salting in general, and the increasingly finite amount of vendor coin, makes grebbing rocks significantly less profitable and encourages more salting, which means, less player interaction to make your coin. Eventually all you've got is a bunch of bags of rocks you can't pawn off, a bunch of thirst ticks, and hunger you've got to deal with. Some indie merchant wants to buy obsidian shards for their practice making X, while being unable to supply the coins to provide the incentive for amos the grebber to go out and collect the shards, this leads to further stagnation of the game economy, and, coming back to the subject matter of this post, forces more people into clans for their needs, but at what costs? Suddenly, character concepts are a bit more limited and you're not free to explore your character and build up a modest amount of coin so you can go join a clan already decked out in a hilariously hodge-podge collection of rags that just might, might allow you to survive longer in these clanned roles.
So that leaves you with what? Salting. Can make salting harder, but I think, honestly, it's not really the coin, beyond necessities and achieving certain milestones for your character that you'd like to achieve before committing yourself to clan, that matters, but the character interaction. Myself, I've always prefered to sell things to PCs, but that depends on there being coin to provide to reasonably compensate my PC for the work done and resources lost acquiring the materials, toss on that the costs of getting licensed and suddenly it's starting to look like a losing bargain. Alright, enough rambling, I have things I must be doing.
Salting WAS dangerous, when it was in an area that had constant elven raids, and people that wanted to kill you for your gear -and- the salt you spent all day grebbing.
Its gotten a LITTLE more dangerous with some new additions, but I personally think the skill needed to pull "quality" salt from the salting areas should be increased a bit. It won't stop anyone, but it'll require a few more days of combat training, or at least more risk, which might increase socialization.
Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
Salting WAS dangerous, when it was in an area that had constant elven raids, and people that wanted to kill you for your gear -and- the salt you spent all day grebbing.
Its gotten a LITTLE more dangerous with some new additions, but I personally think the skill needed to pull "quality" salt from the salting areas should be increased a bit. It won't stop anyone, but it'll require a few more days of combat training, or at least more risk, which might increase socialization.
Just cap them to buy one small per day.
I think salting is just about fine the way it is.
Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
Salting WAS dangerous, when it was in an area that had constant elven raids, and people that wanted to kill you for your gear -and- the salt you spent all day grebbing.
Its gotten a LITTLE more dangerous with some new additions, but I personally think the skill needed to pull "quality" salt from the salting areas should be increased a bit. It won't stop anyone, but it'll require a few more days of combat training, or at least more risk, which might increase socialization.
I agree, the quality salts could use with showing up a leeeeettle less often, not really equipped to guess what the magnitude of adjustment should be, but it would increase the value of cleaning kegs, I think. Salting would still be profitable, but the fact remains that unless your skilled merchants are going out salting they're going to have a lot trouble competing for the seemingly limited vendor coin with their crafted items in order to pay grebbers and hunters the kinds of prices that the grebbers and hunters need to charge to justify the expenses, risks and rarity of their advanced skills (which took time to build up, damnit, and they deserve some kind of reward to keep them coming back). With a merchant, you have to spend a good deal of money just to eventually break even (considering all the hoops you have to jump through to get anywhere with it, if you didn't pick a crafter subguild especially). This can be difficult to adjust, and, all things considered, it would be so much easier to go join a clan, then store out of boredom and roll up what you wish you'd rolled up in the first place, which is some kind of warrior/ranger/thief type and explore the known, rescuing folks in distress, or perhaps just putting them out of their misery because, hey, nice boots... or maybe join another clan and go hunt stuff down and hopefully keep your clan merchants supplied and entertained.
Maybe a few more risks, to encourage salters to band together in groups (hope the flying spiders nab amos first!) and increase interaction during these activites, because solo salting is soooo boring, but as part of a group it can be fun. Salting needs to be there for those slow times when anyone who would play a merchant or such has been burnt out to the extent where they just play something else. The rest can be fixed by simply increasing vendor coin supply. Then the merchanty types can pay their hunters and grebbers more, who will then take that coin, go to your clan, and hand it over for some hideously overpriced trinket, some of which will end up in your pocket to spend on, things you want. The movement of coin would do a lot to encourage people to interact, but only if there were more coin to be moved. Otherwise we may as well combine all clans into two and auto-start all players in them in order to eliminate indies and consolidate the player-base, if these are our goals, but that's extreme to the point of absurdity, so let's simply admit that discouraging market niches for those outside clans further does little to improve the experience on either end.
Is this discussion about having a skill pool, or about benefits you get by being lifesworn? Cause I think these are two separate topics.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 20, 2015, 06:07:55 PM
I think it'd be interesting if long serving lifesworn PCs were given new skills appropriate to their job.
Say one every 4 months RL played.
Examples.
Ranger Amos is now a private in the arm. He's been private for 4 months RL. He can choose something from the Arm of the Dragon skill pool.
Options: Subdue, Kick, Bash, Scan
Hunting clans:
Hunt, Archery, Scan, Direction Sense
Calvary clans:
Ride, Direction Sense, Charge, Trample
If you already have a skill, riding for example, it could boost you to riding with knees.
It'd be an interesting benefit to lifesworn and something to work towards.
I think the OP was talking more about benefits to being lifesworn. EMPHASIS ON LIFESWORN. Joining the Byn for a year doesn't get you ALCHOHOL_TOLERANCE(101283192391293) or anything, but as suggested... if you join the Arm, or Legions, Tor Scorpions, or Lifeswear to a Merchant House... maybe there is a pool of skills you can pick from that you can get +(x) skill in. So if you're an assassin with no skinning skill, but you're a First Hunter of Kadius, maybe you have a SOMEWHAT decent ability to skin a jozhal.
Or if you're a Lifesworn Private in the Arm, with eyes on being an officer... maybe you at least have SOME ability to subdue despite having rolled a pickpocket. Thats the suggestion.
I kind of wonder what this'd do to clans like tribes, the bardic circles, and noble houses like Oash or Kassigarh.
It'd also skew northen crime even further in the Legion's favor, but then Tuluk has about three PC's who get even slightly subversive, anyway.
I think this is a wonderful idea. In addition to encouraging people to play clanned without unduly punishing indies, this adds a little more flavor to the different roles. It'd make things feel a little less gamey.
Yes, this is feasible already in the Legions. I don't know that it has been implemented in other clans, but it's fair to say that long-lived, lifesworn roles in clans could have opportunities for specialization or advancement.
Oooooooo! Ok, now THAT'S interesting and exciting.
Quote from: Nyr on February 23, 2015, 09:17:39 AM
Yes, this is feasible already in the Legions. I don't know that it has been implemented in other clans, but it's fair to say that long-lived, lifesworn roles in clans could have opportunities for specialization or advancement.
This does not appear to be the case in all clans.
Everyone present their ideas for what skills should go into which skill pool?
Arm of the Dragon: SCAN, HUNT, SUBDUE, DISARM, BASH, KICK, PARRY, GUARD, FOUR WEAPONS + SHIELD USE.
My reasoning is they should be able to at least learn to counter sneaky types and eventually become proficient at close quarter combat. It should be written like a subguild description, heh.
Long serving members of the Arm of the Dragon may eventually learn to counter the criminal element in Allanak and engage them in brutal close quarters combat.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 23, 2015, 10:04:02 AM
Long serving members of the Arm of the Dragon may eventually learn to counter the criminal element in Allanak and engage them in brutal close quarters combat.
Bring it on!
More seriously, hunting clans, like Kadius and Salarr, should get SKINNING and HUNT.
I think the problem with the Arm of the Dragon is there's not enough guild ranger, guild burglar etc.at times, and too many guild warriors.
Most people wouldn't see more than one skill gain/boost anyway due to death.
Quote from: Nyr on February 23, 2015, 09:17:39 AM
Yes, this is feasible already in the Legions. I don't know that it has been implemented in other clans, but it's fair to say that long-lived, lifesworn roles in clans could have opportunities for specialization or advancement.
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 23, 2015, 09:36:32 AM
Oooooooo! Ok, now THAT'S interesting and exciting.
^^^ This.
Noble aides without listen should definitely eventually develop it after years of service, from the amount of RL hours they stand around doing nothing else while their nobles at tables/couches mumble along. ::)
Maybe scan too, because all you're doing is just standing there looking around and being quiet a lot of the time. But definitely listen.
Sergeants/templars in military clans really need a good direction sense. I know that it cuts out the usefulness of rangers but if you don't have one at the moment, it impacts the whole clan's playability.
Letting combat clan members of long standing learn things like kick and bash makes sense, because they will have spent as much time practicing it as anyone else, having it done to them if nothing else.
Rewards for sticking with PCs, and sticking with clans, all wrapped up in one thing! Good idea.
I think it would just be nice to see whatever system the Legion has implemented across the board as a proper request system. My impression is regardless of whatever skills would be nice for x to have, it still has to be set by an imm manually. If it's case by case then just knowing the standards would be good.
I don't see this as something that should be only for lifesworm members of specific clans. This should be for any role where you gut it out and stick with it. If you're guild-merchant and you join the Byn, survive for 5 IC years, I don't see why you couldn't get some basic weapon skills even if you're not permanently part of the clan. (good luck surviving 5 IC years as guild-merchant in the Byn btw)....
Quote from: wizturbo on February 23, 2015, 07:49:47 PM
I don't see this as something that should be only for lifesworm members of specific clans. This should be for any role where you gut it out and stick with it. If you're guild-merchant and you join the Byn, survive for 5 IC years, I don't see why you couldn't get some basic weapon skills even if you're not permanently part of the clan. (good luck surviving 5 IC years as guild-merchant in the Byn btw)....
Sawbones, maker of neat shit. People won't want to lose you, especially if your PC has a good deal of insight on the goings on in other parts of the world. It can be done, it's not easy, but I'm fairly certain that with enough effort, maybe staff could bump that parry skill. I'd hazard to guess that if you wanted to survive in a combat clan with no combat skills, you'd be best off proving your worth first by making connections all over the known, as guild merchant -should- be doing. Connections, secrets are your sword and shield.
I once had a long lived ranger who's best friends were two very, very powerful, badass malarn dwarves. after a rl year of them kicking it I sent in a request asking if I would have picked anything for my time spending every waking moment with these warriors (I regularly used warriors skills during our training sessions). Staff added disarm, kick, and bash to my ranger. So staff isn't completely against the idea of getting skills added with a lot of time and work. Getting them just for being alive, meh. Getting them for putting in the work, informing staff through character reports what your end goal is. Yesh.
I'd want any system like this to be based on merit, not simply survival. That is to say, not for simply being 'long lived' - but doing stuff with that longevity.
To be 100% honest this isn't a system I was aware was in use in the Legions and so I was not appraising the Legion PCs with regards to putting them on this track. At the moment I am not changing that. I think a system like this needs a universal roll-out to be entirely fair.
So to put it plain: While the Legions apparently have the potential to have 'clanned development' no PC has been evaluated or modified since the documentation for the clan was changed and I personally have no plans to change that at this time.
Quote from: Rathustra on March 03, 2015, 09:13:13 AM
I'd want any system like this to be based on merit, not simply survival. That is to say, not for simply being 'long lived' - but doing stuff with that longevity.
I'm starting to have second thoughts. The idea of real or even perceived favoritism is dangerous to any game and leads to bitter people. Unless its a system everyone can partake in equally without needing any serious judgement calls from staff, I say we avoid it.
For example, if you make sergeant of a clan and have lived at least a year, then you can expect to be offered -one- extra skill added or skill boosts depending on choice of the player. They should be minor things but still something to make the character a bit more special to the person playing it. Again very standardized, and something that everyone would know about, basically becoming commanding officer would mean training from your clan regardless, because you got the promotion. It would be something everyone can work to achieve, even if that means killing your sergeant and taking his place.
There are other muds (a certain pk mud in particular) where staff gives players massive rewards in the form of skills, stat boosts, weapons, and everything in between based on their opinion of the character. If they think character is cool, they reward it, if they don't perhaps because they can't watch ever cool thing one character does, they simply ignore that character. It doesn't work and for all the additional work the staff put in into watching and trying to be fair, it will still lead to a lot of disgruntled players.
Quote from: Dresan on March 03, 2015, 09:38:24 AM
Quote from: Rathustra on March 03, 2015, 09:13:13 AM
I'd want any system like this to be based on merit, not simply survival. That is to say, not for simply being 'long lived' - but doing stuff with that longevity.
I'm starting to have second thoughts. The idea of real or even perceived favoritism is dangerous to any game and leads to bitter people. Unless its a system everyone can partake in equally without needing any serious judgement calls from staff, I say we avoid it.
This is my feeling as well. I am not interested in giving people bumps for simply existing - but quantifying fairly what passes for 'achievement' would just compound concerns players have over playing favorites (whether or not those are valid concerns is another debate). With karma we have an established, universal framework for assessing players for granting more karma or removing it. This framework is also applied by staff working and debating together. It would be a bigger step to come up with frameworks for every clan (as achievement varies from clan to clan) and then have the final say fall to just that clan's staff.
Quote from: Dresan on March 03, 2015, 09:38:24 AM
For example, if you make sergeant of a clan and have lived at least a year, then you can expect to be offered -one- extra skill added or skill boosts depending on choice of the player. They should be minor things but still something to make the character a bit more special to the person playing it. Again very standardized, and something that everyone would know about, basically becoming commanding officer would mean training from your clan regardless, because you got the promotion. It would be something everyone can work to achieve, even if that means killing your sergeant and taking his place.
Sergeants and actual leadership PCs are, you'd assume, achieving things by default - their OOC function in the game is to facilitate plots and generate entertainment for their underlings and those peripheral to those plots. I'd hope that leaders have suitable carrots over their heads to keep them in those roles already. Giving them more incentives could go either way, in my mind.
Quote from: Dresan on March 03, 2015, 09:38:24 AM
There are other muds (a certain pk mud in particular) where staff gives players massive rewards in the form of skills, stat boosts, weapons, and everything in between based on their opinion of the character. If they think character is cool, they reward it, if they don't perhaps because they can't watch ever cool thing one character does, they simply ignore that character. It doesn't work and for all the additional work the staff put in into watching and trying to be fair, it will still lead to a lot of disgruntled players.
While 'cool' characters will naturally get more attention - it's more interesting to monitor and discuss a character that's 'doing things' or is well played/portrayed vs. watching Yolo the dwarf - it's the case that we try to have our systems of rewards (IC promotion, OOC karma) be based more on results and reliability (respectively). In both cases there is debate and consensus before we grant anything. I think it is just the case that cool, interesting characters are more prone to achieve things because they're just better played.
Quote from: Rathustra on March 03, 2015, 10:23:55 AM
Quote from: Dresan on March 03, 2015, 09:38:24 AM
There are other muds (a certain pk mud in particular) where staff gives players massive rewards in the form of skills, stat boosts, weapons, and everything in between based on their opinion of the character. If they think character is cool, they reward it, if they don't perhaps because they can't watch ever cool thing one character does, they simply ignore that character. It doesn't work and for all the additional work the staff put in into watching and trying to be fair, it will still lead to a lot of disgruntled players.
While 'cool' characters will naturally get more attention - it's more interesting to monitor and discuss a character that's 'doing things' or is well played/portrayed vs. watching Yolo the dwarf - it's the case that we try to have our systems of rewards (IC promotion, OOC karma) be based more on results and reliability (respectively). In both cases there is debate and consensus before we grant anything. I think it is just the case that cool, interesting characters are more prone to achieve things because they're just better played.
I guess you will just need to take my word for it that how things are done here are far less subjective than other places. Image you looking at a player's assassin you like it so you award him additional weapon skills. While at the same time, yousee another character and deciding that because they are less interesting, you aren't even going to bother reading the reports they send and just to piss them off more you make sure you let them know that oocly as they are playing their character. :)
I think as the years have gone by this game has taken strides to make things at least seem less subjective, karma for example has guide lines and you can have your character notes reviewed based on those guide-lines. Frankly i think most people after a couple months of time of reasonable roleplaying get 2 karma anyways. In addition to the special app system, karma has become nice to have but not something totally necessary in order to play something cool or get some bonuses. The IC world already rewards long-lived character fairly well already if you ask me and since I can't get my own character to live past 4 months before dying or storing, that is a good thing. I don't think I've ever met a long-lived character who isn't interesting in one way or another, even if the only thing they can do is talk about past things they've experienced, people they have met and events they have lived through. :)
I suppose if the player wants to build a tower, become sorcerer king and destroy the cities, they would definitely need much more love and support from the staff. Depending on the scope of a plot, a person may or may not accomplish it. However every day things like clan promotions still pretty standardized at this point or already in the hands of other players who are playing supported roles such as templars.
Quote from: Rathustra on March 03, 2015, 09:13:13 AM
I'd want any system like this to be based on merit, not simply survival. That is to say, not for simply being 'long lived' - but doing stuff with that longevity.
To be 100% honest this isn't a system I was aware was in use in the Legions and so I was not appraising the Legion PCs with regards to putting them on this track. At the moment I am not changing that. I think a system like this needs a universal roll-out to be entirely fair.
So to put it plain: While the Legions apparently have the potential to have 'clanned development' no PC has been evaluated or modified since the documentation for the clan was changed and I personally have no plans to change that at this time.
i actually understand these sentiments exactly. The mentioned system the legions has is interesting - but i agree that other places should have it too before anything is -done- with it.
The bolded part especially, As someone whos -ran- Rps before. and doing things with the longevity is -important- to me with any plots or RPs i Run, most importantly I strive to make sure to help everyone involved understand character development and growth.
Going a bit off topic here, but.
When I Rp, the most fun I get isn't out of what my characters can do themselves or achieve themselves - its about how they can effect and influence other PCs, and their stories, and leave a lasting mark on them to allow them to develop further, and as one Pc effects another, the other pc effects another, and then a web of reactions, effects, happenings and growth spread like wild fire, and thats how -plot- happens.
My problem with this idea is that you incentivize clanned play over independent. There are some very interesting and potentially fun groups to run in that are indie, and you basically tell your playerbase that it's not worth their time to explore these options by implementing a large advantage like this. As someone already said, clans have huge benefits already.
Sure, it is only for lifesworn, but what does that even mean anymore? You could say you are lifesworn to an oranization but not actually do anything to reflect that in your IC actions. Do you still get bonus skills then? That's a large margin for interpretation.
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
My problem with this idea is that you incentivize clanned play over independent.
GOOD.
Quote from: Malken on March 03, 2015, 05:58:00 PM
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
My problem with this idea is that you incentivize clanned play over independent.
GOOD.
I just think it would be a shame if, creatively, people chose not to pursue indie organizations because logistically clans made more sense. Indies have their place in the whole macrocosm of the roleplay environment. So like Rathustra said, it would have to be implemented in such a way that measured merits over simply being in a clan for a long period.
I'd like to see sirihish literacy granted to very high-ranking lifesworn house aides/advisors. Slaves have it, after all...
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 06:08:36 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 03, 2015, 05:58:00 PM
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
My problem with this idea is that you incentivize clanned play over independent.
GOOD.
I just think it would be a shame if, creatively, people chose not to pursue indie organizations because logistically clans made more sense. Indies have their place in the whole macrocosm of the roleplay environment. So like Rathustra said, it would have to be implemented in such a way that measured merits over simply being in a clan for a long period.
Logistically, like you say, joining a clan makes a lot more sense ICly but it's really not well represented in game when a Corporal makes like 150 'sids a month and Bob the indie salter makes 150 'sids a day.
Everyone knows that indie has a HUGE bunch of advantages over clanned people so it's fine with me if we start finding ways to put people into clans. Indies really don't need anything else to make them attractive.
I on the other hand kinda feels like it's a shame that Rathustra has abandoned the Legion project for now because in my personal opinion, the Legion already has a very hard time to get new recruits to join AND to keep them.
Quote from: Malken on March 03, 2015, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 06:08:36 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 03, 2015, 05:58:00 PM
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
My problem with this idea is that you incentivize clanned play over independent.
GOOD.
I just think it would be a shame if, creatively, people chose not to pursue indie organizations because logistically clans made more sense. Indies have their place in the whole macrocosm of the roleplay environment. So like Rathustra said, it would have to be implemented in such a way that measured merits over simply being in a clan for a long period.
Logistically, like you say, joining a clan makes a lot more sense ICly but it's really not well represented in game when a Corporal makes like 150 'sids a month and Bob the indie salter makes 150 'sids a day.
Everyone knows that indie has a HUGE bunch of advantages over clanned people so it's fine with me if we start finding ways to put people into clans. Indies really don't need anything else to make them attractive.
I on the other hand kinda feels like it's a shame that Rathustra has abandoned the Legion project for now because in my personal opinion, the Legion already has a very hard time to get new recruits to join AND to keep them.
But because we're talking about skills, the sid is an afterthought. A PC with buffed up skills is inherently better off because they can survive. What good is your 20,000 sid in Nenyuk if you're dead? If we use Legions as an example, they're obviously out on the front lines(but the bulk of that is training for conflict that hasn't happened yet).
Is indie vs clanned actually something "everyone knows"? It seems to me clans have an advantage in getting plots while indies have an advantage in being able to do whatever the hell they want without having to answer to someone about their schedule. Not to speak too much about IC stuff, but it doesn't exactly seem like the Legion is undermanned right now. Compelling leadership/plots are probably the biggest driver for clan recruitment.
That said it would be really nice to see PCs who actively contribute to the game for a long period of time get skill boosts that help them with OOCly stirring stuff up. Listen for aides, direction sense/climb for militia types, etc etc.
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 03, 2015, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 06:08:36 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 03, 2015, 05:58:00 PM
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
My problem with this idea is that you incentivize clanned play over independent.
GOOD.
I just think it would be a shame if, creatively, people chose not to pursue indie organizations because logistically clans made more sense. Indies have their place in the whole macrocosm of the roleplay environment. So like Rathustra said, it would have to be implemented in such a way that measured merits over simply being in a clan for a long period.
Logistically, like you say, joining a clan makes a lot more sense ICly but it's really not well represented in game when a Corporal makes like 150 'sids a month and Bob the indie salter makes 150 'sids a day.
Everyone knows that indie has a HUGE bunch of advantages over clanned people so it's fine with me if we start finding ways to put people into clans. Indies really don't need anything else to make them attractive.
I on the other hand kinda feels like it's a shame that Rathustra has abandoned the Legion project for now because in my personal opinion, the Legion already has a very hard time to get new recruits to join AND to keep them.
But because we're talking about skills, the sid is an afterthought. A PC with buffed up skills is inherently better off because they can survive. What good is your 20,000 sid in Nenyuk if you're dead? If we use Legions as an example, they're obviously out on the front lines(but the bulk of that is training for conflict that hasn't happened yet).
If you want to talk about skills, indies still have the advantage.
Quote from: Tetra on March 03, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
But because we're talking about skills, the sid is an afterthought. A PC with buffed up skills is inherently better off because they can survive. What good is your 20,000 sid in Nenyuk if you're dead? If we use Legions as an example, they're obviously out on the front lines(but the bulk of that is training for conflict that hasn't happened yet).
Right, but from what I remember and from what I saw with the Legionnaire project, it didn't involve coded skills at all, it was all like.. A scout thing were you could take different paths and branch out your duties or something like that.
The way Armageddon is made to be played, a lot more people need to be into clans or else it doesn't work out at all, just take Tuluk as an example, the whole thing was built so that there would be inner-city partisan warfare for parts of the city to control but it never panned out that way because it's always lacking PCs in the major clans.
I'm also super happy to hear that the Legion isn't underclanned at the moment :) I always had a special penchant for that clan.
Quote from: Malken on March 03, 2015, 06:33:17 PM
The way Armageddon is made to be played, a lot more people need to be into clans or else it doesn't work out at all, just take Tuluk as an example, the whole thing was built so that there would be inner-city partisan warfare for parts of the city to control but it never panned out that way because it's always lacking PCs in the major clans.
Until Armageddon gets more regular players, the amount of things that are possible is pretty limited. I think that's why people push for consolidation, or removing parts of the world. The more closer players are, the more interaction you get, and it keeps things interesting not only for current players, but for new players who are trying out Armageddon for the first time.
Long term, consolidation wouldn't be much fun. But then, most times I don' t care if I don't see another pc for a week.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 21, 2015, 05:45:55 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 21, 2015, 04:57:12 PM
Truth is, if staff catches that indy hunter twinking too badly, they might just have some rather "unfortunate" rolls, meanwhile, Amos the ruf circle machine can train his skills in relative safety.
Uhh? Not sure what you mean by this, but staff just animate the world realistically around you, they don't enforce twinking policy through IC means(at least, not anymore). That would be stupid. If, say, you're grinding skills on a bunch of elves in an elven area of the 'rinth, they may spawn a bunch of affiliated elves on you to hunt your ass down, but that is different. They won't just spawn a Mekillot on you because you're abusing the salting code, or suddenly reduce your forage skill.
That would lead to players complaining, and then staff having to deal with player complaining... a bunch of work they don't want to deal with.
Shalooonsh once did this to me when I was a wee little lad playing a Jaxa Pah way back in 2011 or so. I learned my lesson pretty fast.
Quote from: Lizzie on February 21, 2015, 11:20:40 PM
I don't get why anyone thinks they should get more skills just because they're in a clan. Your character comes with the capacity to do a whole lot of stuff by virtue of the main guild - and the capacity to do even more stuff, that might be completely unrelated to the main guild, by virtue of the subguild (or extended subguild as the case may be).
Being a life sworn clan member is a sacrifice, severely limiting ones options. Some added bonuses would make being married to a clan more palatable for me.
Bonuses for not being lifesworn:
PH4T CASH
FREEDOM
Bonuses for being lifesworn:
Potentially an army of people to back you up
Political power
Steady paycheck
Steady food and water
Discount goodies from your local clan.
Yep. Being lifesworn blows.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 12, 2015, 07:02:17 PM
Yep. Being lifesworn blows.
It can if the reasons for one's enjoyment in the clan change, often times when playing in a clan those reasons are out of one's own control (changes in clan leadership/policies/staff/membership/etc.)
Nothing is out of your control. You just have to kill the right people.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 12, 2015, 06:55:57 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 21, 2015, 11:20:40 PM
I don't get why anyone thinks they should get more skills just because they're in a clan. Your character comes with the capacity to do a whole lot of stuff by virtue of the main guild - and the capacity to do even more stuff, that might be completely unrelated to the main guild, by virtue of the subguild (or extended subguild as the case may be).
Being a life sworn clan member is a sacrifice, severely limiting ones options. Some added bonuses would make being married to a clan more palatable for me.
Let's take a look at that.
Being a lifesworn clan member = not permanent - though it's intended to be, there are plenty of examples - past and present - of "lifesworn" clannies leaving those clans without it equalling a death sentence. You can't just quit your job like someone who isn't lifesworn, but the possibility exists in the right circumstances. So that's out of the way.
Next: No matter what you choose to play in the game, you are severely limiting your options. Desert elves aren't supposed to hang out in cities. They also can't ride a mount, or a wagon. They also can't be mindbenders, and they also can't be UNclanned, and they are limited to only three clans total. But they can uh - run fast? Yeah that's a great bonus.
Half-giants are supposed to be played as morons. They are also not able to rise in rank to Sergeant or Senior Aide in any clan, and many clans won't hire them at all. They are also codedly difficult - if not impossible - to spar with. They can't carry all that much in their enormous hands. But hey they can bash stuff real good and carry big boxes filled with heavy stuff. There's a bonus I could really love!
Mages can't cast openly in either city or in RSV and aren't supposed to exist in Tuluk at all. They're segregated and can't rent an apartment anywhere in Allanak except their own building. Only one clan will openly hire any gemmed mage, and zero clans will openly hire any ungemmed mage. So really, a mage is intended to be played by someone who enjoys solo RP. Bonuses: the gemmed ones get a gem bonus and a whole temple they can spam-cast in. That's about it.
I can go on with every guild, subguild, race, and location choice but hopefully you get the picture. Many character choices are limiting, and have few bonuses to offset the limitations that aren't available by anyone else. Being lifesworn in a clan is no different, nor should it be. The bonuses are "RP bonuses" and not coded bonuses. Although - there are actually some coded bonuses to being a higher ranking member of a clan. Also, if you're a member of a GMH, you -do- get skill bonuses that other PCs don't get: you get access to all those clan-based recipes.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 08:10:40 AM
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 12, 2015, 06:55:57 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 21, 2015, 11:20:40 PM
I don't get why anyone thinks they should get more skills just because they're in a clan. Your character comes with the capacity to do a whole lot of stuff by virtue of the main guild - and the capacity to do even more stuff, that might be completely unrelated to the main guild, by virtue of the subguild (or extended subguild as the case may be).
Being a life sworn clan member is a sacrifice, severely limiting ones options. Some added bonuses would make being married to a clan more palatable for me.
Let's take a look at that.
Being a lifesworn clan member = not permanent - though it's intended to be, there are plenty of examples - past and present - of "lifesworn" clannies leaving those clans without it equalling a death sentence. You can't just quit your job like someone who isn't lifesworn, but the possibility exists in the right circumstances. So that's out of the way.
Next: No matter what you choose to play in the game, you are severely limiting your options. Desert elves aren't supposed to hang out in cities. They also can't ride a mount, or a wagon. They also can't be mindbenders, and they also can't be UNclanned, and they are limited to only three clans total. But they can uh - run fast? Yeah that's a great bonus.
Half-giants are supposed to be played as morons. They are also not able to rise in rank to Sergeant or Senior Aide in any clan, and many clans won't hire them at all. They are also codedly difficult - if not impossible - to spar with. They can't carry all that much in their enormous hands. But hey they can bash stuff real good and carry big boxes filled with heavy stuff. There's a bonus I could really love!
Mages can't cast openly in either city or in RSV and aren't supposed to exist in Tuluk at all. They're segregated and can't rent an apartment anywhere in Allanak except their own building. Only one clan will openly hire any gemmed mage, and zero clans will openly hire any ungemmed mage. So really, a mage is intended to be played by someone who enjoys solo RP. Bonuses: the gemmed ones get a gem bonus and a whole temple they can spam-cast in. That's about it.
I can go on with every guild, subguild, race, and location choice but hopefully you get the picture. Many character choices are limiting, and have few bonuses to offset the limitations that aren't available by anyone else. Being lifesworn in a clan is no different, nor should it be. The bonuses are "RP bonuses" and not coded bonuses. Although - there are actually some coded bonuses to being a higher ranking member of a clan. Also, if you're a member of a GMH, you -do- get skill bonuses that other PCs don't get: you get access to all those clan-based recipes.
My point is the social and RP bonuses that a clan can offer at any given time are out of one's control while one's commitment to that clan is expected to be constant.
So, my character has been a member of Borsail for a little while and the Lady he serves is really amazing and I'm really enjoying the role. My character takes a life oath. For some reason my character's boss, Lady Borsail stops logging in. Because the political power of my character comes directly from Lady Borsail, this limits my character's ability and power. I tough it out but it's not really what I signed up for. My character is stalwart and loyal so he has no desire to leave the house just because he's not working directly for the same noble anymore, but from a game play perspective that's the whole reason I became involved in the clan and am now committed to it. Eventually Lady Borsail's character stores their character and my character and a new PC noble, Lord Borsail arrives. While my first boss, Lady Borsail was more martial focused, Lord Borsail is more of a social and political character. I'm a warrior and Lord Borsail doesn't see me as that useful for his goals so I go mostly underutilized. My enjoyment in the clan really slips and there isn't much I can do other than petition him and my clan staff, otherwise my only options are to store and make a new character.
Clans are heavily dependent on the other people in the clan, the leaders and clan staff. These are the bonuses that I attribute to a clan, things that can't be found other places in the game. When they change it changes the whole dynamic of a clan.
Nothing is in anybodies control. You think your skills are in your control? HAH! Your skills are in control of the dice which can at any time choose to completely fuck you over and have you dead. Lifesworn get AWESOME benefits and I would not mind playing a lifesworn character fifteen hundred billion times.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 13, 2015, 10:28:17 AM
Nothing is in anybodies control. You think your skills are in your control? HAH! Your skills are in control of the dice which can at any time choose to completely fuck you over and have you dead. Lifesworn get AWESOME benefits and I would not mind playing a lifesworn character fifteen hundred billion times.
Perhaps you are right, some may have no control. Is it possible they don't realize they have choices?
A possible solution may be swearing to people, not organisations, much as with some templar aides.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 12, 2015, 07:02:17 PM
Bonuses for not being lifesworn:
PH4T CASH
FREEDOM
Bonuses for being lifesworn:
Potentially an army of people to back you up What if you're a social PC?
Political power What if not applicable? Mutant/magicker?
Steady paycheck See first benefit
Steady food and water See first benefit
Discount goodies from your local clan. Again if you have fat cash, how does this matter.
Yep. Being lifesworn blows.
Yep. It does.
If you're a social PC a group of buddies backing you up is very fucking useful. Thanks for proving my point.
I like clans. Now let me say, I never played Xbox or fps games. The clicking and turning of numbers doesn't make me feel like I'm winning. I don't compare my PCs wealth to other PCs but to the world as advertised. I like that my planned PCs belong. I believe in the prestige of clans. Works for me. You may feel differently.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 13, 2015, 02:30:27 PM
If you're a social PC a group of buddies backing you up is very fucking useful. Thanks for proving my point.
Your tone seems more pointed than your point.
Those buddies have loyalty to the organization, not you, as a character or player. They could very well be the cause of your death. An independent is under no such strain, but if they choose to start an indie clan, they can at least run a litmus test of who they associate with or hire.
Your 'buddies' don't really mean much if you can't trust them with your life.
How does giving them skills help with any of those clan detriments? Somehow I doubt, by the way you're talking about them, you'd play in clans even if they did offer these benefits for long-lived life-sworn PC's.
Clans have a lot of benefits as is, and you don't seem to think they're enough. I don't think they really need more.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 13, 2015, 03:15:34 PM
How does giving them skills help with any of those clan detriments? Somehow I doubt, by the way you're talking about them, you'd play in clans even if they did offer these benefits for long-lived life-sworn PC's.
Clans have a lot of benefits as is, and you don't seem to think they're enough. I don't think they really need more.
I don't think lore-canon clans in the game should receive a chance to branch skills, but all clans, indie or otherwise. Not because clans are underwhelming(they can be), but because it's a realistic representation of life. You spend years in service to an organization, you are bound to learn new things.
I agree with that.
You're bound to learn things just by seeing them. You're bound to learn things by doing them. You can be taught things in real life that you don't otherwise have the skill for.
That isn't done here unless special exceptions are made because it would unbalance the game. Clan benefits are already great. 20k won't do you any good. Being buddies with your clan organization gives you benefits that indies will never get. A high-ranking Salarri has much more political clout, he has authority over a group of people that (generally) aren't out to kill him.
You want to make a case? ANYONE could be out to stab you in the back. Anyone. The chance is generally significantly less in an organization where you're hanging out and working with each other.
Honestly, I don't know what more you want.
Quote from: Tetra on March 13, 2015, 03:26:18 PM
You spend years in service to an organization, you are bound to learn new things.
That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.
Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.
I would like clans better if there was more freedom/more to do.
Little rules like "NEVER EVER LEAVE DA GATES FOR NO REASON!" which are brought on by an OOCLY construct of "Please don't lose that nice gear and feed it to the scrabs" was designed to keep newbies alive, who had yet learned the game. To See it carry over when a character clearly is capable of taking care of themselves. seems silly. Lets face one fact, being trapped in a schedule while watching your indie friends talk about their crazy adventures can be disheartening, while your on month 4 of log in, spar, sit at bar, spar, some rp, spar, log out.
You get kind of jealous and ready to type REBEL at a moments notice because, you're bored, your leadership you haven't seen in weeks, and the clans moving at snail pace towards anything. Whether you character lack the ability to move things forward, or perhaps as the player lacks that level of skill/game knowledge to move things forward themselves... you find the clan vacated.
I try them every once and awhile and give it a good go, but I rarely last long in clans, they just don't provide that most important resource.... FUN, in fact structurally they get in the way of a lot fun. Whether ICly constructed or OOCLY limitations, I'm sure many players could care less about sid/skills/and gear if they could just have more FUN.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 05:31:29 PM
That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.
Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.
I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.
Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".
Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.
Quote from: rodic on March 13, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
I would like clans better if there was more freedom/more to do.
Little rules like "NEVER EVER LEAVE DA GATES FOR NO REASON!" which are brought on by an OOCLY construct of "Please don't lose that nice gear and feed it to the scrabs" was designed to keep newbies alive, who had yet learned the game. To See it carry over when a character clearly is capable of taking care of themselves. seems silly. Lets face one fact, being trapped in a schedule while watching your indie friends talk about their crazy adventures can be disheartening, while your on month 4 of log in, spar, sit at bar, spar, some rp, spar, log out.
You get kind of jealous and ready to type REBEL at a moments notice because, you're bored, your leadership you haven't seen in weeks, and the clans moving at snail pace towards anything. Whether you character lack the ability to move things forward, or perhaps as the player lacks that level of skill/game knowledge to move things forward themselves... you find the clan vacated.
I try them every once and awhile and give it a good go, but I rarely last long in clans, they just don't provide that most important resource.... FUN, in fact structurally they get in the way of a lot fun. Whether ICly constructed or OOCLY limitations, I'm sure many players could care less about sid/skills/and gear if they could just have more FUN.
My experience, limited though it is, is that many leaders will impose those restrictions, but in clans where it makes sense (not soldiers or Byn) they will relax those rules for those who prove themselves capable.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 13, 2015, 05:55:17 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 05:31:29 PM
That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.
Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.
I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.
Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".
Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.
Really, no. Some people are tone-deaf. They can make noise, but they can't sing. Some people aren't coordinated enough to handle a bow and arrow. It is a skill, not an intrinsic knowledge. Some people will never be capable of passing the tests required to enter Law School. Or Medical School. Some people, no matter how interested they might be in the subject, will never be able to successfully fix a computer. Or drive a stick-shift. Or teach a history course to a 5th grade class. Knowing something isn't enough. Skill is also necessary. If you don't have the skill, then knowledge won't help. You might know how to do something - but that doesn't mean you can do it. It just means you know how. Practical application involves skill that you either have or you don't. You can develop skills, but you have to have the capacity for that skill to start with. If you don't have the capacity for it, then you don't have the capacity for it.
Thankfully, I actually believe this is true, or I might have just had a colonoscopy performed by an Avon Lady instead of an actual doctor today.
There a difference between someone never passing the bar and never being ABLE to pass the bar. The difference is in how they are taught, and how motivated they are to learn. I can look at some poor, starving 50 year old man in a third world country and tell you 100% that man will never pass the bar. That doesn't mean he doesn't have what it takes to pass the bar.
People who are tone deaf (roughly 5% of the population) are different. That's like saying someone who is deaf will never learn to sing. Well, yeah, duh. Just like someone who's born blind will never be able to paint a sunset. Just like a man with only one hand will never play a guitar. These people are not fully healthy or fully functional.
If someone isn't coordinated enough to learn how to use a bow(really really easy to learn the basics, I could show you in twenty minutes) then they probably have some form of developmental disorder, physical disorder, or are approaching the task the wrong way with wrong information.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 13, 2015, 06:00:56 PM
Quote from: rodic on March 13, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
I would like clans better if there was more freedom/more to do.
Little rules like "NEVER EVER LEAVE DA GATES FOR NO REASON!" which are brought on by an OOCLY construct of "Please don't lose that nice gear and feed it to the scrabs" was designed to keep newbies alive, who had yet learned the game. To See it carry over when a character clearly is capable of taking care of themselves. seems silly. Lets face one fact, being trapped in a schedule while watching your indie friends talk about their crazy adventures can be disheartening, while your on month 4 of log in, spar, sit at bar, spar, some rp, spar, log out.
You get kind of jealous and ready to type REBEL at a moments notice because, you're bored, your leadership you haven't seen in weeks, and the clans moving at snail pace towards anything. Whether you character lack the ability to move things forward, or perhaps as the player lacks that level of skill/game knowledge to move things forward themselves... you find the clan vacated.
I try them every once and awhile and give it a good go, but I rarely last long in clans, they just don't provide that most important resource.... FUN, in fact structurally they get in the way of a lot fun. Whether ICly constructed or OOCLY limitations, I'm sure many players could care less about sid/skills/and gear if they could just have more FUN.
My experience, limited though it is, is that many leaders will impose those restrictions, but in clans where it makes sense (not soldiers or Byn) they will relax those rules for those who prove themselves capable.
It might be a poor example I admit. It's hard to describe accurately. In my experience, certain restrictions can lead to a sense of tedium being in clans that is hard to deal with from a player stand point. They're hard of over come, I know other players find the more social aspects great, partly because they have that level of skill and knowledge in terms of culture. It's like you can only tavern sit so many nights, spar so many times, before you wish a few beetles would land on caravan way and things could get interesting.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 06:11:48 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 13, 2015, 05:55:17 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 05:31:29 PM
That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.
Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.
I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.
Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".
Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.
Really, no. Some people are tone-deaf. They can make noise, but they can't sing. Some people aren't coordinated enough to handle a bow and arrow. It is a skill, not an intrinsic knowledge. Some people will never be capable of passing the tests required to enter Law School. Or Medical School. Some people, no matter how interested they might be in the subject, will never be able to successfully fix a computer. Or drive a stick-shift. Or teach a history course to a 5th grade class. Knowing something isn't enough. Skill is also necessary. If you don't have the skill, then knowledge won't help. You might know how to do something - but that doesn't mean you can do it. It just means you know how. Practical application involves skill that you either have or you don't. You can develop skills, but you have to have the capacity for that skill to start with. If you don't have the capacity for it, then you don't have the capacity for it.
Thankfully, I actually believe this is true, or I might have just had a colonoscopy performed by an Avon Lady instead of an actual doctor today.
While what you're saying is true to certain extent, we're essentially talking about nature vs nurture. The common fallacy people fall into is that they believe that their ability to do anything relies on one or the other, when in reality it is about both.
It is entirely possible for humans to learn something and be relatively proficient at it with no natural talent or background whatsoever. Talent is not just about pre-determined aptitudes, it's about understanding and experience. Yes, aptitudes will give you an edge, but that doesn't prevent you from learning a skill in the first place.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 06:11:48 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 13, 2015, 05:55:17 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 05:31:29 PM
That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.
Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.
I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.
Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".
Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.
Really, no. Some people are tone-deaf. They can make noise, but they can't sing. Some people aren't coordinated enough to handle a bow and arrow. It is a skill, not an intrinsic knowledge. Some people will never be capable of passing the tests required to enter Law School. Or Medical School. Some people, no matter how interested they might be in the subject, will never be able to successfully fix a computer. Or drive a stick-shift. Or teach a history course to a 5th grade class. Knowing something isn't enough. Skill is also necessary. If you don't have the skill, then knowledge won't help. You might know how to do something - but that doesn't mean you can do it. It just means you know how. Practical application involves skill that you either have or you don't. You can develop skills, but you have to have the capacity for that skill to start with. If you don't have the capacity for it, then you don't have the capacity for it.
Thankfully, I actually believe this is true, or I might have just had a colonoscopy performed by an Avon Lady instead of an actual doctor today.
Contrary to what you seem to believe people are not born with a hard coded set of skills they can and can't learn and to claim such is on a level of absurdity equivalent to any other pseudoscience bullshit.
Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.
Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.
That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.
It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 07:49:48 PM
Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.
Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.
That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.
It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.
That's not really a sound example, as nobody in Zalanthas can perform brain surgery. We aren't talking about rocket science, just learning how to skin an animal(not difficult at all) or hiding(also not hard), or whatever else someone might study for years in their clan.
Quote from: Tetra on March 13, 2015, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 07:49:48 PM
Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.
Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.
That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.
It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.
That's not really a sound example, as nobody in Zalanthas can perform brain surgery. We aren't talking about rocket science, just learning how to skin an animal(not difficult at all) or hiding(also not hard), or whatever else someone might study for years in their clan.
And I am saying there is nothing in saying "I swear on my life" that explains how someone can now suddenly successfully skin an animal, when they couldn't an hour ago. There is also nothing in saying "Lifesworn Amos, I release you from your oath" that explains how someone who was suddenly able to skin an animal three years ago and for the past three years up until this moment, suddenly can't anymore.
I have nothing against the idea of adding benefits to clanned PC life - but I don't think skills should be one of those benefits.
I suppose that depends on what you count as easy or not.
Most people can learn how to ride a horse without looking like an idiot, fry an egg without burning the shit out of it, or how to blend into a crowd without standing out very much in a relatively short time.
It's also not very relevant.
Archery, for example, is way more difficult than it looks. The Japanese would say that a thousand days of archery practice is a good start, and the English considered yeomen fit for firing longbows after eleven or so years of practice only. Mind that this would mean people were fit for military use after eleven years, let alone the 'shoot a dude squarely through his throat from a long distance' kind of thing Zalanthans are capable of.
Similarly, intricate crafts take a shitton of effort to do well. Weaving carpets in detailed patterns is a skill that takes decades of practice in some areas. Zalanthas has no metal, and its technology would mean that its craftsmen would require a ridiculous amount of skill to craft good wares with the means they have at their disposal.
I don't think anyone is saying that 90% of people can't be pretty okay at hiding places or cooking things or stabbing people or riding animals or most other skills.
I just don't think achieving master grade in any skill is something you should laugh at.
It would be silly to base additional skills solely on being lifesworn, however I believe it's reasonable that someone who's lifesworn might be taught or pick up specialized skills over time. As far as code wise, it could be something that happens slowly, only inside a special area in a clan compound by people of a certain clan ranking.
For example, Lets a warrior/caravan guard who works for Kadius spends many hours of his down time around their tailors, watching them sew and create different outfits. It could be coded in such a way that this character might branch clothworking and then by practicing -inside the clans crafting area- could slowly advance that skill (but only while inside the clan's special crafting area.) It could be much slower than usual progression to reflect the time it takes to learn and the learning/skill gains only taking place inside the clan area to reflect the specialized knowledge/instruction available there. Now, lets pretend that some unspeakable natural tragedy occurs and House Kadius no longer exists and this character is no longer employed by Kadius, they would still possess that knowledge/skill but because of the lack of those unique specialized learning opportunities, any special skills gained from Kadius wouldn't progress.
I think it's a plausible idea.
I don't think it's a matter of grade though, Patuk. I think it is just flat out nonsensical to suddenly know a new skill that you were previously incapable of learning, just because you say "I swear." Swearing an oath should have nothing at all to do with skills. Skills shouldn't be a reward for swearing an oath. A bonus should. Or access to a new area of the estate that you never had access to. Permission to bring friends to your quarters that you never had permission to bring before. Access to the clan bank account. A new special livery reserved only for lifesworn people of your rank. Those are things that could/should go with swearing a lifeoath.
I think it's equally absurd in the reverse, when your life-oath is waived after you've received a "life-oath-based skill" and you suddenly lose your skill. I also happen to think a life-oath should actually BE a life-oath. If you swear it, then that's it. You're with the clan until you die, no exceptions. If you violate the rules, you die earlier rather than later - but you die a member of the clan.
... That's so contrived and BS. Nah.
Thank you for contributing Saellyn.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 08:50:30 PM
I don't think it's a matter of grade though, Patuk. I think it is just flat out nonsensical to suddenly know a new skill that you were previously incapable of learning, just because you say "I swear." Swearing an oath should have nothing at all to do with skills. Skills shouldn't be a reward for swearing an oath. A bonus should. Or access to a new area of the estate that you never had access to. Permission to bring friends to your quarters that you never had permission to bring before. Access to the clan bank account. A new special livery reserved only for lifesworn people of your rank. Those are things that could/should go with swearing a lifeoath.
I think it's equally absurd in the reverse, when your life-oath is waived after you've received a "life-oath-based skill" and you suddenly lose your skill. I also happen to think a life-oath should actually BE a life-oath. If you swear it, then that's it. You're with the clan until you die, no exceptions. If you violate the rules, you die earlier rather than later - but you die a member of the clan.
Good points!
You could probably address both concerns by:
(a) having it irreversible! (Although sidenote: losing skills through lack of use would be cool.)
(b) having it triggered not because of the oath but because a senior member in the clan (or staff) issued a command, like the other commands they can do, e.g., promote, dump, etc. There'd be a list of skills that a given clan offers and when the leader feels the clan member has "earned" the new skill through role play (a subjective call on the leader/staff's part), they just do: "clanteach skinning Amosa".
MODIFIED TO ADD: I remember when I was in a clan the coolest bit was when a certain Sr. Agent who had pretty low playtimes would come on and gather around his little erdlulings and teach us neat things about taints (TAINTS TAINTS TAINTS TAINTS) and cures and other neat little bits of lore. This would be sort of like that.
As long as 'lifeoaths" are reversable (and they are), then an irreversable skill-boost won't wash. It'll just encourage people to join clans to buff up their existing skills, which would take long enough to earn the right to swear a life oath - then do so - then find an excuse to get fired without being hunted and killed. Karma-based main guild plus extended subguild plus clan-based skills that aren't part of either - and not having to answer to a clan because lifeoaths don't really mean lifeoaths? I don't think that's a good idea at all.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 09:08:25 PM
As long as 'lifeoaths" are reversable (and they are), then an irreversable skill-boost won't wash. It'll just encourage people to join clans to buff up their existing skills, which would take long enough to earn the right to swear a life oath - then do so - then find an excuse to get fired without being hunted and killed. Karma-based main guild plus extended subguild plus clan-based skills that aren't part of either - and not having to answer to a clan because lifeoaths don't really mean lifeoaths? I don't think that's a good idea at all.
Someone taking multiple lifeoaths for twinky reasons sounds like something that would be very apparent to staff (and players).
Literally everything can
potentially be abused.
I too think quashing the flow of ideas because I can conceive of a way it will be unfair if someone abuses it. The game should go back to being basically a MUSH with basic kill/flee code and be done with all this silly powergaming.
I didn't bring up taking multiple lifeoaths. I'm talking about someone who actually is expecting to end up independent, who joins a clan just to get their skills up and learn extra skills that aren't already on their guild/subguild lists.
There are already clan-based skills in GMHs that you lose if you are no longer with that clan. There's no way to RP around that really - they don't use special needles to sew those cloaks, they're using the exact same cloth that they used the day before, they're sitting at a table that's an exact duplicate of the one they sat at in the clan hall except this one's in their apartment - the same apartment they made half of those clan-based items while they were in the clan.
It doesn't make any IC sense, it's a "because it's a clan-based thing and non-clannies shouldn't have it, period" kind of thing. It -does- make OOC sense. The OOC sense is to prevent people from joining clans JUST to get those recipes, then leaving the clan and making all those same clan-based items. The same rule should apply with skills. But it makes no IC sense already, with the clan-based recipe loss. Adding another thing that makes no sense - makes no sense.
Make clan skills require incremental teaching to increase. You learn backstab because someone in the Guild taught it to you, you get it to apprentice, they have to continue to teach you for you to get it to journeyman, and so on.
Thank you Lizzie. Someone else who stands by me.
If someone joined my clan just to get a skill bonus and then broke their lifeoath and left, I'd have them hunted down and killed.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 08:26:57 PM
Quote from: Tetra on March 13, 2015, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2015, 07:49:48 PM
Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.
Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.
That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.
It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.
That's not really a sound example, as nobody in Zalanthas can perform brain surgery. We aren't talking about rocket science, just learning how to skin an animal(not difficult at all) or hiding(also not hard), or whatever else someone might study for years in their clan.
And I am saying there is nothing in saying "I swear on my life" that explains how someone can now suddenly successfully skin an animal, when they couldn't an hour ago. There is also nothing in saying "Lifesworn Amos, I release you from your oath" that explains how someone who was suddenly able to skin an animal three years ago and for the past three years up until this moment, suddenly can't anymore.
I have nothing against the idea of adding benefits to clanned PC life - but I don't think skills should be one of those benefits.
I think you're painting a really ugly portrait of the implications this system would entail. You don't suddenly *wake up one day because you lifeswore and magically know how to shoot a bow*.
It would be supplemented with RP over in-game years and okay'd by staff with a system of checks and balances. ::)
I think there are two arguments here over mechanics, as well. There are CODED BENEFITS to joining a clan, hinted at by Lizzie. But what is being suggested is the possibility to speak with staff about additions of skills NOT SPECIFICALLY using a special application but rather because a hunting clan has the ability to (over time) teach you to at least get to low Journeyman in a skill.
Is this correct?
Quote from: Riev on March 14, 2015, 12:13:33 AM
I think there are two arguments here over mechanics, as well. There are CODED BENEFITS to joining a clan, hinted at by Lizzie. But what is being suggested is the possibility to speak with staff about additions of skills NOT SPECIFICALLY using a special application but rather because a hunting clan has the ability to (over time) teach you to at least get to low Journeyman in a skill.
Is this correct?
Yes(but I would say they would get it at novice with a shorter entry threshold to apply, cap out at low-mid journeyman). And it would be approved by someone based on a history of roleplay demonstrating the PC's lifestyle involving the use/practice of said skill.
You can already do that with the request tool. It isn't automatic, but it is already possible.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 14, 2015, 07:56:17 AM
You can already do that with the request tool. It isn't automatic, but it is already possible.
I think if it were a gradual automated (coded) process based on certain metrics (whatever they might be) rather than something staff did manual, but instead would just oversee, I believe it'd have a much greater chance of success, being easier to manage. It'd also be standardized and not viewed as a merit based reward that depended upon the judgement of individual staffers each individual time someone made a request. Instead it'd be something that was common for anyone willing to put in the time and dedication to a clan.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 14, 2015, 07:56:17 AM
You can already do that with the request tool. It isn't automatic, but it is already possible.
Like so many other things that are "possible", there don't appear to be any guidelines or rules that govern this type of request. It seems more like it would be "if you want a new skill, ask, and then find out what happens". People seem to be pushing for more of a "Yes, this kind of thing can happen, and here are some basic rules to think about before you assume it is a given"