This is a thread to discuss the announcement located here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48319.0.html).
brothels, brothels, brothels, brothels brothels brothels brothels brothels
Wow!
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking cool.
Would things like mercenary groups also fall under the reign of this? At least, the first levels? I doubt they'd need a a minor house or anything, but it is a service.
I hope this is a preamble to allowing more player created clans in general, rather than just player created merchant houses.
Quote from: QuillDipper on November 01, 2014, 10:09:56 PM
Would things like mercenary groups also fall under the reign of this? At least, the first levels? I doubt they'd need a a minor house or anything, but it is a service.
Quote from: MeTekillot on November 01, 2014, 10:11:30 PM
I hope this is a preamble to allowing more player created clans in general, rather than just player created merchant houses.
Mercenary groups, whore houses, whatever players can come up with that other PCs are willing to pay for.
What about tribes and/or wilderness/non-city based clans?
Jaw. Dropped. No words. No. Words. Strange feelings of warmth. I... love you?
More praise coming when the shock's passed and I can articulate properly. Wow. Just... Wow.
Quote from: Delirium on November 01, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
What about tribes and/or wilderness/non-city based clans?
I'm not sure what you are asking.
Quote from: Delirium on November 01, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
What about tribes and/or wilderness/non-city based clans?
Yeah, this is a good question. Are they able to progress to the point of being a recognized d-tribe?
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on November 01, 2014, 10:34:55 PM
Quote from: Delirium on November 01, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
What about tribes and/or wilderness/non-city based clans?
Yeah, this is a good question. Are they able to progress to the point of being a recognized d-tribe?
I'm sorry, I don't follow what you are asking. Can you connect the dots between what you are asking and what the announcement is discussing/what this thread is for?
Will there be able to be player-created tribes or non-city clans that will receive the same coded, if not exact same, representation as this currently proposed system for player created clans?
Quote from: MeTekillot on November 01, 2014, 10:39:15 PM
Will there be able to be player-created tribes or non-city clans that will receive the same coded, if not exact same, representation as this currently proposed system for player created clans?
No.
Will this solely operate on PC sales or will there be also vNPC sales as well?
(http://i.imgur.com/R8skQJe.gif)
Brothels
First of all....holy fucking shit!!!
Second, will the leasing of warehouses etc be put on hold for the time being until this officially goes live?
Nevermind, misread! (related to a question by Phoenix)
Another one.
Is buying a license/merchant's token considered as being licensed/registered in terms of the first level of being recognized as a "Trader", or is being "registered" at the first level something else entirely separate from the current licenses/tokens in game?
Quote from: Phoenix on November 01, 2014, 10:41:53 PM
Will this solely operate on PC sales or will there be also vNPC sales as well?
Your shopkeeper NPC won't be selling to the virtual masses. The income that you get from that NPC will be based on PC sales only.
There may be points in the progression of the business where virtual sales are appropriate though. This will usually be after negotiating with PCs though. For instance your brothel might negotiate with a Byn Sergeant to provide services for an IC year to all their bynners for X amount of sid, and so on.
Quote from: Desertman on November 01, 2014, 10:51:03 PM
Another one.
Is buying a license/merchant's token considered as being licensed/registered in terms of the first level of being recognized as a "Trader", or is being "registered" at the first level something else entirely separate from the current licenses/tokens in game?
We are going with the existing merchant licenses (no reason not to use them, plus they served an almost entirely virtual purpose before, and will soon serve a greater one in being the first step towards such things).
Quote from: Desertman on November 01, 2014, 10:44:04 PM
First of all....holy fucking shit!!!
Second, will the leasing of warehouses etc be put on hold for the time being until this officially goes live?
Kind of? We won't be renting out any warehouses until we have the documentation all squared away. However since the requirement for warehouse renting entails being registered in the city state as pursuing that business for an IC year it does put us in the situation of no one meeting that requirement as of now. So by the time it's an issue warehouses should be fully functional and able to be leased.
Quote from: Nyr on November 01, 2014, 10:55:41 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 01, 2014, 10:51:03 PM
Another one.
Is buying a license/merchant's token considered as being licensed/registered in terms of the first level of being recognized as a "Trader", or is being "registered" at the first level something else entirely separate from the current licenses/tokens in game?
We are going with the existing merchant licenses (no reason not to use them, plus they served an almost entirely virtual purpose before, and will soon serve a greater one in being the first step towards such things).
To further clarify, and I think maybe what Dman was getting at:
When this goes live, are PCs who currently have a merchant's token or license already considered registered? Or will they be required to get officially registered through a templar and pay the five hundred coins plus whatever tax the templar determines to keep the license/token they previously purchased?
If Amos the Trader paid 400 coins to Faithful Lord So-and-So awhile back, does he get to keep that license and be registered? Or does he need to find So-and-So and pay another 500 coins plus a tax? Or does he just have to pay the remaining 100 coins plus a tax?
Edit: Also, this is very, very cool.
It may not be that fair to players of PCs that might have a token/license already, but they got it for (at least slightly) different reasons before--they shouldn't necessarily be able to jump in line and grab an available warehouse immediately. Also, the requirements wouldn't have been met--a year of tax history that wasn't required before, for instance, and not being (potentially) harried/forced into small bribes/politicking to get to the next point.
Everyone interested (ICly) will be on equal footing, at least initially.
Quote from: Nyr on November 01, 2014, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: Delirium on November 01, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
What about tribes and/or wilderness/non-city based clans?
I'm not sure what you are asking.
Like a clan that isn't a merchant house/trading company.
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 01, 2014, 11:31:41 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 01, 2014, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: Delirium on November 01, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
What about tribes and/or wilderness/non-city based clans?
I'm not sure what you are asking.
Like a clan that isn't a merchant house/trading company.
You're going to have to be more specific. This covers quite a few things. We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852162.html#msg852162)). What is your specific question?
Sounds like if you're not selling something, you don't get the benefit of these rules.
That means you can't just be some bumfuck tribe in the tablelands with a permanent camp.
Quote from: Nyr on November 01, 2014, 11:27:47 PM
It may not be that fair to players of PCs that might have a token/license already, but they got it for (at least slightly) different reasons before--they shouldn't necessarily be able to jump in line and grab an available warehouse immediately. Also, the requirements wouldn't have been met--a year of tax history that wasn't required before, for instance, and not being (potentially) harried/forced into small bribes/politicking to get to the next point.
Everyone interested (ICly) will be on equal footing, at least initially.
That's exactly what I was asking. Thank you for clarifying. :)
Super exciting about this. Unfortunately I don't think I'll ever have a long lived enough character for this.
Don't worry, you can always work for those who can!
I agree that this sounds exciting. I hope it works out.
This is so cool.
Another few questions:
As it stands now, anyone who wants to sell anything is required to get a token/license. That means that a merchant who is making and selling goods is required to have one, but so is the indy hunter who wants to be able to walk around the city and sell off some extra food. At this time both those PCs have tokens allowing them to sell.
If a PC isn't interested in pursuing the warehouse route and is content to just work and sell out of their pack or their apartment, with no want to expand into anything greater, are they needing to still get registered?
Does this mean that the hunter who wants to sell off extra food (who has a token to be able to do so) still needs to get registered, even if he/she isn't going to expand any sort of business? Is the new system of registered tokens/licenses required for anyone wanting to sell anything, regardless of whether they ever want to expand their business into a warehouse/shop/trading company etc?
Quote from: Nyr on November 01, 2014, 11:33:41 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 01, 2014, 11:31:41 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 01, 2014, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: Delirium on November 01, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
What about tribes and/or wilderness/non-city based clans?
I'm not sure what you are asking.
Like a clan that isn't a merchant house/trading company.
You're going to have to be more specific. This covers quite a few things. We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852162.html#msg852162)). What is your specific question?
I guess this answers my question. Thank you.
Quote from: manipura on November 02, 2014, 12:06:38 AM
If a PC isn't interested in pursuing the warehouse route and is content to just work and sell out of their pack or their apartment, with no want to expand into anything greater, are they needing to still get registered?
If he/she can get away with it, sure.
Quote
Does this mean that the hunter who wants to sell off extra food (who has a token to be able to do so) still needs to get registered, even if he/she isn't going to expand any sort of business? Is the new system of registered tokens/licenses required for anyone wanting to sell anything, regardless of whether they ever want to expand their business into a warehouse/shop/trading company etc?
If he/she can get away without registering, sure. Kind of like before, really. This is also why that level is "taxed at templarate discretion." Either a) don't piss off a templar, b) don't be noticed by a templar, c) make friends with a templar, or d) pay your taxes, scrub.
Got it. :)
Woo!
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fe/27/aa/fe27aa32f75f45431a467f235ee7bb75.jpg)
Now I can really start the dentists clan I've always dreamed of! I wonder what skill is needed to masterwork dentures?
Is this only for Allanak and Tuluk, or would it be possible to do this in Red Storm or Luir's Outpost?
Is the progression from one level to the next automated or is this handled on a case by case basis by staff through the request tool?
Will player shops sell to VNPCs similarly to how other shops can?
Wow, so many good things going through my head right now... All I have to say is:
Thank you!!!!! You guys are taking this game in a fantastic direction.
Once again the staff have hit for six! Wonderful addition.
My questions:
1. I have had to rewrite twice to get this question put properly. Seeing as some human and elven tribal clans already have shops in the major urban centers, does this mean that human and d elf tribals can become registered merchants in either city state (an possibly the Dun)? As opposed to only having a merchants token?
2. Depending on the response to number 1, would their crafters eventually have access to place goods in these existing shops?
It would be cool of these groups could have such privileges in the Wing Post or Cenyrs.
2. Are there any race/class restrictions on progressing up the ranks from registered merchant? For example how far up the ladder could a gemmed mage go?
Sticking to the docs as they presently are, this would be limited. Even if you could create a gemmed equivalent to the Byn for southland escorts..not many would want to use it if they played close to the docs. Will there be hard ceilings or will it be left up to player discretion and what the market will bear?
Looks really cool. Daunting though!
Are there any planned alternatives to the warehouse step? Just to piggyback off prior examples, it doesn't seem like burgeoning mercenary groups/brothels/whatever will get much use out of it besides proving they can pay their bills.
I'd imagine all sorts of training or kankin' happening in a warehouse just as well as else where.
I mean, if a warehouse is for storing goods and your fighters or your lovers are your goods .....
Yeah, but at that point it's just a huge, glorified apartment that you aren't supposed to sleep in, right down to 'only two keys'. :P
If you're allowed to do whatever you want with it, short of that caveat, I guess there's nothing to complain about.
Daaaaaamn you guys.
Yay!
Quote from: WWYD on November 02, 2014, 03:15:17 AM
Yeah, but at that point it's just a huge, glorified apartment that you aren't supposed to sleep in, right down to 'only two keys'. :P
If you're allowed to do whatever you want with it, short of that caveat, I guess there's nothing to complain about.
Yeah, this is a fair point actually.
Can the second step be potentially more malleable than "Warehouse"? It seems like this step is the one towards the limelight -- If it's a Warehouse "Space", can it be repurposed into the appropriate center of attention?
For example -- If this entrepreneur is running a brothel, it could be 'the waiting room for the whorehouse' and 'the whore house'. The main descriptions for the generic warehouse are saved, and if this entrepreneur runs out of dough, the place gets redecorated back to what it was before.
If the entrepreneur is a mercenary running Byn Lite, maybe the first room is a waiting room/contract office, while the back-room is a barracks.
If the entrepreneur is a craft-brewer, maybe the first room is a selling-floor, while the back room is a distillery.
In a Nutshell (tl;dr), when people hit the 'Warehouse Phase', can the rooms/descriptions be up for debate based on IC resources spent to re-decorate and re-purpose?
This is really, really cool.
Good job, y'all.
OMG, thank you guys!
This is great.
I wonder about the long-term impact on coded clans - it will be curious to see how it works out.
Also: It almost makes up for the sorc nerf ;)
This is pretty damn cool! Can't wait to see the first minor house(s) emerge. Thank you for implementing this excellent addition, staff!!
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 02, 2014, 12:29:34 AM
Is this only for Allanak and Tuluk, or would it be possible to do this in Red Storm or Luir's Outpost?
Only for Allanak and Tuluk. There are no warehouses in Red Storm or Luir's Outpost, there is no political rivalry to influence to proceed in status, there is no ruling body that one can put a proposal before with the backing of a larger group.
Quote
Is the progression from one level to the next automated or is this handled on a case by case basis by staff through the request tool?
The only levels requiring explicit staff oversight for attaining are Trading Company and Minor House. At that level one would have the same sorts of powers as a sponsored role and would thus need to meet the same kind of requirements we'd expect out of sponsored roles, save the "maverick" clause.
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 02, 2014, 12:35:06 AM
Will player shops sell to VNPCs similarly to how other shops can?
Quote from: Adhira on November 01, 2014, 10:53:58 PM
Quote from: Phoenix on November 01, 2014, 10:41:53 PM
Will this solely operate on PC sales or will there be also vNPC sales as well?
Your shopkeeper NPC won't be selling to the virtual masses. The income that you get from that NPC will be based on PC sales only.
Quote from: Norcal on November 02, 2014, 02:39:13 AM
Once again the staff have hit for six! Wonderful addition.
My questions:
1. I have had to rewrite twice to get this question put properly. Seeing as some human and elven tribal clans already have shops in the major urban centers, does this mean that human and d elf tribals can become registered merchants in either city state (an possibly the Dun)? As opposed to only having a merchants token?
If you have a clan or tribe with actual holdings, you do not really fit the bill at this time.
Quote2. Are there any race/class restrictions on progressing up the ranks from registered merchant? For example how far up the ladder could a gemmed mage go?
The world is mostly a human, mundane as far as social status is concerned. Feel free to try. Expect to fail.
Quote
Sticking to the docs as they presently are, this would be limited. Even if you could create a gemmed equivalent to the Byn for southland escorts..not many would want to use it if they played close to the docs. Will there be hard ceilings or will it be left up to player discretion and what the market will bear?
Feel free to try. Expect to fail.
Quote from: WWYD on November 02, 2014, 02:49:56 AM
Looks really cool. Daunting though!
Are there any planned alternatives to the warehouse step? Just to piggyback off prior examples, it doesn't seem like burgeoning mercenary groups/brothels/whatever will get much use out of it besides proving they can pay their bills.
You can store business-related material there, expecting that it will be secured better than a typical apartment. You can train there, knowing that it is large enough to do this.
Whorehouse is only two letters from warehouse.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 02, 2014, 03:56:13 AM
For example -- If this entrepreneur is running a brothel, it could be 'the waiting room for the whorehouse' and 'the whore house'. The main descriptions for the generic warehouse are saved, and if this entrepreneur runs out of dough, the place gets redecorated back to what it was before.
If the entrepreneur is a mercenary running Byn Lite, maybe the first room is a waiting room/contract office, while the back-room is a barracks.
If the entrepreneur is a craft-brewer, maybe the first room is a selling-floor, while the back room is a distillery.
In a Nutshell (tl;dr), when people hit the 'Warehouse Phase', can the rooms/descriptions be up for debate based on IC resources spent to re-decorate and re-purpose?
Seeing as how you can hit the warehouse phase with only a few RL weeks of investment, I wouldn't expect to see your warehouse change in terms of how it looks.
Redecorate, sure, but at least at this time, it doesn't look like the front area of a warehouse is secured--just the warehouse itself.
(http://i.imgur.com/d1bGtP7.gif)
QuoteAt the earlier levels (registered merchant / warehouse lease holder), we recognize that PCs may have to sell things to NPCs in order to make ends meet if they are selling goods. However, from Shopkeeper up, goods and services should be geared towards fulfilling PC needs. Spamcrafting or flooding NPC merchant shops may face an OOC/IC response (blacklisting at merchants, for instance). Use common sense.
Since most PC-made items are essentially worthless to other PCs, this seems needlessly restrictive.
Quote from: WWYD on November 02, 2014, 02:49:56 AM
Looks really cool. Daunting though!
Actually, we based some of this on work done in 2006 by Halaster, which itself was based on the plot of a southern PC that went through these same motions to create a minor house. If it is a daunting process, understand that the daunting process resulted in lasting achievement by a player at least once before--and that was without any layout on how it could proceed.
Quote from: Delusion on November 02, 2014, 09:34:42 AM
QuoteAt the earlier levels (registered merchant / warehouse lease holder), we recognize that PCs may have to sell things to NPCs in order to make ends meet if they are selling goods. However, from Shopkeeper up, goods and services should be geared towards fulfilling PC needs. Spamcrafting or flooding NPC merchant shops may face an OOC/IC response (blacklisting at merchants, for instance). Use common sense.
Since most PC-made items are essentially worthless to other PCs, this seems needlessly restrictive.
Then it would behoove one to mastercraft items that PCs want.
Vibrating magickal dildos
I'm super excited about this.
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140402121259/gameofthrones/images/7/72/House-Stark-heraldry.jpg)
Houses are coming.
Quote from: Nyr on November 02, 2014, 08:53:26 AM
Seeing as how you can hit the warehouse phase with only a few RL weeks of investment, I wouldn't expect to see your warehouse change in terms of how it looks.
Redecorate, sure, but at least at this time, it doesn't look like the front area of a warehouse is secured--just the warehouse itself.
Odd, that is only the case in the Tuluki warehouses. That can be fixed. In Allanak at least, the front office is also locked. So yes, what you are suggesting should indeed be possible.
Can you create a clan without the aim of it becoming a "family" clan - i.e. something like the T'zai Byn, rather than House Terash?
Or is babby-making required RP for anyone who wants to establish a clan?
You can, but part of the requirements for becoming a 'Minor Merchant House' or essentially, a Service provider recognized by the city state is having a 2nd generation. This does not necessarily have to mean a child, blood relative etc, what it means is that you must have a clear line of succession for the business. This could be contractual, it could be a business partner and so on.
Quote from: Adhira on November 02, 2014, 12:46:52 PM
You can, but part of the requirements for becoming a 'Minor Merchant House' or essentially, a Service provider recognized by the city state is having a 2nd generation. This does not necessarily have to mean a child, blood relative etc, what it means is that you must have a clear line of succession for the business. This could be contractual, it could be a business partner and so on.
Awesome. I was a little confused by the wording, so this is great to know.
I'm sure you can think of a few ways to acquire babies without making them yourself ;).
Quote from: Mook on November 02, 2014, 12:49:30 PM
I'm sure you can think of a few ways to acquire babies without making them yourself ;).
...Magick?
Will people be allowed to adopt others into their families, much like the GMH also sometimes do?
Quote from: Delirium on November 02, 2014, 12:40:07 PM
Can you create a clan without the aim of it becoming a "family" clan - i.e. something like the T'zai Byn, rather than House Terash?
Or is babby-making required RP for anyone who wants to establish a clan?
Adhira touched on this already, which is great.
I'll explain why the announcement only mentions family for becoming a minor house. This is really the only player example we've had to follow, and it seemed like a good way to ground things for the announcement. You've got a kid and they're growing up to do the same thing. Your question is a good one though and it points out where it needs to be made more clear.
If it is instead a different sort of business that makes it to that stage, then a clear system of succession (not just the next person named, but how things pass on from there in the future) must be established. This isn't exactly entirely a "good" thing, either--it means all debts and obligations also pass to that new person. The founder might be entirely too business-savvy and they may have all sorts of contacts. The heir (whomever it might be) may not have any of that, and could run it into the ground.
Quote from: Delirium on November 02, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Awesome. I was a little confused by the wording, so this is great to know.
Yeah, we need to tweak that wording. Thanks for bringing this up, this is what we were hoping with having this discussion before launch, it'll help us refine things as best we can. :)
My question.
I see nothing in the staff post about non-product IE, clans that do not make items for sale or provide items for sale.
Does that mean they are not allowed or simply that the system as stated will be adapted to them as well?
It said they can provide services.
Quote from: X-D on November 02, 2014, 01:21:27 PM
My question.
I see nothing in the staff post about non-product IE, clans that do not make items for sale or provide items for sale.
Quote1) Registered Merchant
A registered merchant is someone that is an independent merchant or trader. They are not affiliated with an existing organization, and at this point, they are only starting out with this official venture.
Requirements:
- Must be selling something. This can be a good or a service.
Quote from: regarding shopkeepersIf you are selling a service instead, you may work with clan staff to set up a "hawker" that can "advertise" for your business venture, and be utilized for limited communication purposes in-game.
Yep, you can.
I'm thinking with the drop code, as long as the warehouse is all save rooms can leave plenty of room for redecorating without the need for any changing to descriptions.
A pile of rags sits in a corner, partially obscured by a curtain.
Bam, whorehouse. Etc. Be imaginative! I could see more need for variety of furniture with this sort of thing.
If a warehouse isn't available to move onto step 2, is your progress essentially halted (until you, say, kill one of the existing warehouse owners)?
[edit: step 2 not step 3]
Quote from: CodeMaster on November 02, 2014, 01:49:12 PM
If a warehouse isn't available to move onto step 2, is your progress essentially halted (until you, say, kill one of the existing warehouse owners)?
[edit: step 2 not step 3]
Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.
Quote from: Adhira on November 02, 2014, 01:54:56 PM
Quote from: CodeMaster on November 02, 2014, 01:49:12 PM
If a warehouse isn't available to move onto step 2, is your progress essentially halted (until you, say, kill one of the existing warehouse owners)?
[edit: step 2 not step 3]
Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.
Very cool... I don't envy our future PC warehouse owners - you all are going to have a huge target painted on your back. :)
Awesome to have things spelled out. I am a big fan of transparency when it comes to how things are ran and how decisions are made (in general, not just here).
In contract to what was said earlier, I would have expected the time required to get from one step to the next to be longer, butthat is certainly not a complaint.
Thanks staff!
Ah, had missed those in the larger picture, cool.
I tried thinking about the possibilities made available for this, and my brain just took a gigantic shit in my head. Wow, thanks, I don't think I'll sleep for days.
Then I read the part about: humans only, and thought, what? Surely not. This is the perfect opportunity for elves to actually make a clan for themselves, and yet... nope. Still! Awesome!
EDIT: Although... a clever elf could certainly pick a human they could trust, manipulate, or otherwise have leverage over.
So you can combine Player-Created Tribe and Player-Created Clan?
Do we have any idea when this system will go live? It sounds really awesome!
It looks like warehouses might be online in a month give or take?
I am really excited for people to start pursuing this stuff.
I didn't know they were down?
I don't think you can rent one right now. Weren't you supposed to go through indie staff and animated Nenyuk agents to get them before?
I think House Nenyuk needs to be open again...
I don't know, I think a lot of this can be handled by the Templarate and in the North at least, there's another house with a specialty in this sort of thing.
Well, those enterprising elven, dwarven and breed wannabe warehouse owners can always have a human proxy if they can find one they trust enough right? Let the human act as the head of the company while you give all the orders. They said you get two keys. If that one dies, let the next human in your company step up to take his place. This might also work to keep the target off the actual "bosses" back. Hmm...now I am having some great ideas popping into my mind. I have said enough... :P
Quote from: bcw81 on November 02, 2014, 10:09:35 PM
Do we have any idea when this system will go live? It sounds really awesome!
Probably in a few weeks.
Quote from: HavokBlue on November 03, 2014, 02:15:07 AM
It looks like warehouses might be online in a month give or take?
I am really excited for people to start pursuing this stuff.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 03, 2014, 02:23:05 AM
I didn't know they were down?
Warehouse use has been few and far between. We have watched to see how players used warehouses. At first, clan organizations that already had plenty of storage were sending out clanmembers (or loosely associated clan members) to get warehouses. We nixed that--it was not intended to be additional storage for people that had it, but additional storage for independents. One independent or two
did get on a ways with some of their own ventures. One became inactive, the other was killed.
Warehouses are currently not available for a few reasons.
1) No one has one.
2) No one fits the requirements to get one given the new system.
3) We need to make some changes to the ones in Tuluk to allow the front office area to lock. Not a big deal, but it changes the possibilities immensely.
Once the system is online and in documentation, people can get their licenses and all that and start killing each other to get a warehouse that is open. Or break in and steal everything, if possible.
Quote from: HavokBlue on November 03, 2014, 02:40:28 AM
I don't think you can rent one right now. Weren't you supposed to go through indie staff and animated Nenyuk agents to get them before?
Yes, you had to get staff to set it up. There was no automated system for rental. This will still be a largely manual process, though we expect that there will be code available for automatic deductions from bank accounts on a periodic basis.
Quote from: Barsook on November 03, 2014, 05:33:02 AM
I think House Nenyuk needs to be open again...
Of the Great Merchant Houses, Nenyuk is in the unenviable position of (probably) being the most boring one to play; its reach and grasp far exceeds most clans. I think it is unlikely we will ever open it back up, even for this.
Players too rich? Want harsh and gritty? Let elves run Nenyuk, BAM, problem solved.
I had also gotten a feeling that the warehouses under the old system didn't quite "work." I do remember one being used as a shop and that was quite nice, but that was the only interaction with warehouses I ever saw. It seemed to me you could cram all the stuff you needed in to an apartment for a fraction of the cost.
Weren't they something like 5000 sid to rent? That seems like a lot of coin to pull together through legitimate (i.e. non-twinking) means, but I've never played a merchant. This new system doesn't make them any cheaper.
My feeling is that this system has the potential to do some rebalancing of the game economy by creating a money sink for those merchants who do acquire "excessive" amounts of coin without anything to spend it on. This will only work though if the independents feel like they have to go in to this system for protection. The GMH and Templarates (and potentially other organizations) will need to be sure to provide those incentives.
5000 coins is really nothing for mid-level merchants. Especially if they have a couple of hunters working for them, bringing in hides and materials.
What this system does (for me) is provide a road-map for where and what that Warehouse can be to an Indy Group. It isn't just going to be a storage area -- It can be a plethora of things, and it is a stepping stone towards a higher goal. I like that quite a bit.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 03, 2014, 01:44:02 PM
5000 coins is really nothing for mid-level merchants. Especially if they have a couple of hunters working for them, bringing in hides and materials.
What this system does (for me) is provide a road-map for where and what that Warehouse can be to an Indy Group. It isn't just going to be a storage area -- It can be a plethora of things, and it is a stepping stone towards a higher goal. I like that quite a bit.
I agree with this line of thinking, we shouldn't think of them as purely "warehouses". They're facilities. They provide a larger amount of space to work with. They might be setup as a training facility, a workshop to build things that are usually too big to build elsewhere, even a place to practice fighting. They're not residential facilities though, that part comes when you get a compound.
You know, if the wagonmaking skill ever goes in...
Staff-side documentation is now in beta phase (over 4500 words of material, FWIW). We've already made a few changes from the original announcement, and I think some are in this thread.
A couple of those changes:
- If a clan does make it to the trading company level (stage 4), ownership CAN be transferred. Painfully, but it can be done. Ownership transfer implies that the new owner takes on all debts and obligations of the organization and must establish their own tax history, since they are "new."
- A Minor Merchant House must set up a line of succession, but it doesn't have to be hereditary. The key point here is that the "heir" assumes all debts and obligations of the organization. Succession is pretty painless.
We've laid out basic guidelines for everything from costs to building guidelines, including stuff that players may want to do (that is okay to do) and stuff that players may want to do (that is not okay to do). We also have old code that is being repurposed to use for shopkeepers, so the only code stuff that is remaining at this point is a way to squeeze bank accounts on a periodic basis.
Once we've reviewed these beta staff docs and clarified any remaining questions on them (there are still a couple that came up while writing them), we'll have player documentation put up on the website.
This is a great step towards the sandbox grail a lot of people love.
I have some complaints about (stuff), but I assume they'll work themselves out in a healthy "find out IC" format without any need for intervention. In other words, duck and cover (or, my favorite, run like hell, THEN do that)!
I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.
EDIT: Edited to remove info that shouldn't be public, whoops.
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 12:04:09 PM
I have some complaints about (stuff), but I assume they'll work themselves out in a healthy "find out IC" format without any need for intervention. In other words, duck and cover (or, my favorite, run like hell, THEN do that)!
Like?
Quote
I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.
This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas. There is a reason they are less civilized.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 01:07:08 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 12:04:09 PM
I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.
This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas. There is a reason they are less civilized.
What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 13, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 01:07:08 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 12:04:09 PM
I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.
This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas. There is a reason they are less civilized.
What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?
get out of my swamp
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 13, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?
What do you mean by this? Examples?
sand lord v.2.0.
Quote from: MeTekillot on November 13, 2014, 07:05:22 PM
sand lord v.2.0.
Oh, that's easy, just figure out a way to overthrow Sandlord 1.0. Siege Red Storm. Make sure to bring lots of sandcloth, webbed-boots and water.
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 13, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 01:07:08 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 12:04:09 PM
I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.
This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas. There is a reason they are less civilized.
What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?
You're going to have to be more specific. This covers quite a few things. We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852162.html#msg852162)). We also answered your previous, similar question (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852247.html#msg852247)). This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting. This is not for Red Storm. This is not for Luir's. This is not for Cenyr. This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk. This is not for tribes.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 09:25:44 PM
This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting. This is not for Red Storm. This is not for Luir's. This is not for Cenyr. This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk. This is not for tribes.
Nyr, I've got some hypothetical scenarios that I'd love to hear your thoughts on. I thought it might help alleviate any confusion, and give people an idea of what they could potentially dream up as ambitions for their own hypothetical lesser merchant house concepts. The common theme of all three examples are satellite operations, closely tied to civilization, but not necessarily located there.
1. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kurac (as well as supported by House Oash in the senate), your house rose to prominence for its trade in prostitution. Since Kurac is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to open up a tent in Luirs to peddle ass out of as well (taking a cut of the profits for themselves of course). Doable?
2. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kadius(as well as supported by House Fale in the senate), your house sells sandcloth clothes that look stylish. Since Kadius is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to have one of your men sell out of their pavilion in Red Storm. Doable?
3. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak (a wannabe T'zai Byn) that's been sponsored by House Borsail, primarily by supplying them with beasts for the Arenas. Since Borsail is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide they'll provide slave labor to help build you a base of operations closer to where the beasties are. Doable?
I just think there's too many lawful clans already, as if people need more excuse to behave like a bunch of venomous serpents, and pander for the support of noble houses and merchant houses. How can you maintain neutrality in regards to trade if your supporters are noble houses and other merchant houses? Doesn't sound like a crew I want to join. Indie forever, suck it, clannies.
Though OOCly I applaud this change and think it's awesome, even if it doesn't benefit me.
you don't maintain neutrality that is the whole thing i think because uh, conflict is a pretty big part of the game?
Quote from: MeTekillot on November 13, 2014, 10:35:04 PM
you don't maintain neutrality that is the whole thing i think because uh, conflict is a pretty big part of the game?
Oh, I get, PLENTY, without having to go looking. I'm like a shit-magnet.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 09:25:44 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 13, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 01:07:08 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 12:04:09 PM
I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.
This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas. There is a reason they are less civilized.
What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?
You're going to have to be more specific. This covers quite a few things. We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852162.html#msg852162)). We also answered your previous, similar question (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852247.html#msg852247)). This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting. This is not for Red Storm. This is not for Luir's. This is not for Cenyr. This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk. This is not for tribes.
Fujiyama's examples are good ones, but this is a very general question asking -how- players can do these generalized things. Obviously creating a city state is very unlikely, but I've seen player created cairns in the Red Desert as trade route markers., How do players start and follow through with the process to do this? What steps should they take?
Quote from: wizturbo on November 13, 2014, 09:51:25 PM
1. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kurac (as well as supported by House Oash in the senate), your house rose to prominence for its trade in prostitution. Since Kurac is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to open up a tent in Luirs to peddle ass out of as well (taking a cut of the profits for themselves of course). Doable?
The short answer is yes; the long answer depends on actually securing that sort of contract both IC and having it pass muster with staff. In general, this specific idea seems okay, but shouldn't be taken as tacit approval of such an idea two years down the road from now.
Quote2. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kadius(as well as supported by House Fale in the senate), your house sells sandcloth clothes that look stylish. Since Kadius is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to have one of your men sell out of their pavilion in Red Storm. Doable?
Mostly the same as above except this time it needs more review due to it being in Red Storm, and likely more virtual contract wrangling stuff.
Quote
3. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak (a wannabe T'zai Byn) that's been sponsored by House Borsail, primarily by supplying them with beasts for the Arenas. Since Borsail is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide they'll provide slave labor to help build you a base of operations closer to where the beasties are. Doable?
Less likely. All of the rest are in civilized locations that are themselves protected; it is unlikely in the extreme that Borsail or this lesser merchant house would either have, utilize, or waste the resources for a permanently manned base away from the city.
A locked up, unmanned, PC-only sort of outpost, subject to destruction by whomever might want to come by? Maybe. At that point, see all of the above.
Do all of that first and then get back with us. There are tons of possibilities here, I wouldn't get hung up on the specifics of one or two that are farfetched.
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 10:29:04 PMHow can you maintain neutrality in regards to trade if your supporters are noble houses and other merchant houses?
The answer here is that you do not. That is the point though.
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 13, 2014, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 09:25:44 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 13, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 01:07:08 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 12:04:09 PM
I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.
This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas. There is a reason they are less civilized.
What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?
You're going to have to be more specific. This covers quite a few things. We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852162.html#msg852162)). We also answered your previous, similar question (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48318.msg852247.html#msg852247)). This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting. This is not for Red Storm. This is not for Luir's. This is not for Cenyr. This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk. This is not for tribes.
Fujiyama's examples are good ones, but this is a very general question asking -how- players can do these generalized things. Obviously creating a city state is very unlikely, but I've seen player created cairns in the Red Desert as trade route markers., How do players start and follow through with the process to do this? What steps should they take?
I think those are good questions. They probably should be asked in a different thread though. :) This is the player-created clan progression thread, discussing what we are implementing and what we'll support with that, and not what we'll do with cairns, trade route markers, or creating city-states. If you have a line of questioning that has led to that point from this particular system, please elaborate so that we can give you an answer that has to do with this system.
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 10:29:04 PM
I just think there's too many lawful clans already
Every staff-supported clan in-game is not really close to anything that would be lawful. The templarate makes the laws. More specifically, they can make the laws
up and also ignore them, in many cases. Noble houses tend to be above the law. Merchant Houses tend to exist outside the law due to the massive amount of coin they spend, but they are subject to the laws of the city-state they might be working in. Sometimes. And sometimes they aren't. And sometimes all of the above break the "law" in order to achieve a specific end. And sometimes they get caught, and sometimes they get punished.
To elaborate on this specific point related to this system, lawful is only as lawful as the templar in your pocket. If you want to create an organization that is more or less as unlawful as possible, but reaches to the level of being a minor merchant house with the explicit approval of the Triumvirate or the Senate, this is doable.
You'd
probably need a legitimate front, though. Obfuscate your purpose with clever wording, rules, and secrecy. Also, you'd need deep pockets filled with some sort of resource that the powers that be would enjoy, because you'd be paying off the local authorities on a regular basis. If you don't have that, you will probably need to be affiliated with someone that has those deep pockets.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 11:21:06 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 13, 2014, 10:29:04 PM
I just think there's too many lawful clans already
Every staff-supported clan in-game is not really close to anything that would be lawful. The templarate makes the laws. More specifically, they can make the laws up and also ignore them, in many cases. Noble houses tend to be above the law. Merchant Houses tend to exist outside the law due to the massive amount of coin they spend, but they are subject to the laws of the city-state they might be working in. Sometimes. And sometimes they aren't. And sometimes all of the above break the "law" in order to achieve a specific end. And sometimes they get caught, and sometimes they get punished.
To elaborate on this specific point related to this system, lawful is only as lawful as the templar in your pocket. If you want to create an organization that is more or less as unlawful as possible, but reaches to the level of being a minor merchant house with the explicit approval of the Triumvirate or the Senate, this is doable.
You'd probably need a legitimate front, though. Obfuscate your purpose with clever wording, rules, and secrecy. Also, you'd need deep pockets filled with some sort of resource that the powers that be would enjoy, because you'd be paying off the local authorities on a regular basis. If you don't have that, you will probably need to be affiliated with someone that has those deep pockets.
Thanks much for your inspiration Nyr. You've given me a bit to think about, and I really appreciate it. Hmmmm... deep pockets, hot pockets, I have an idea.
This is fantastic btw, but I just had a question.
Will there be any sort of system like this implemented for non independants? I don't see merchant houses having a need for the system, though they'd probably love the actual code system set in place to run the shops, but what about partisans to noble families and the like? I just see a scenario of where a Noble hires on a crafting patron, and wants to eventually back them to open up a shop to be able to sell wares, and maybe even a Trade Company later on. Is this possible or thoughts to tweak the system so they can? Some of them wouldn't necessarily need step 2, depending on the noble, and would like to just go to step 3 then 4 after due time.
I imagine if you want to set up a trading company in the north you're doing to need a patron, so...
Quote from: Evilone on November 16, 2014, 07:02:13 AM
This is fantastic btw, but I just had a question.
Will there be any sort of system like this implemented for non independants? I don't see merchant houses having a need for the system, though they'd probably love the actual code system set in place to run the shops, but what about partisans to noble families and the like? I just see a scenario of where a Noble hires on a crafting patron, and wants to eventually back them to open up a shop to be able to sell wares, and maybe even a Trade Company later on. Is this possible or thoughts to tweak the system so they can? Some of them wouldn't necessarily need step 2, depending on the noble, and would like to just go to step 3 then 4 after due time.
The scenario you're talking about would likely occur with the noble simply backing someone that would likely be eternally in their pocket in exchange for backing their business venture. The "hires" part isn't really intended to happen, and shouldn't.
To look at it one way, it's an IC conflict of interest. You have this guy working for House Vailka who has opened up his own shop. Valika is paying him to be some sort of Valika employee, but he's also getting money on the side doing his own venture that his Valika noble is backing. Valika may not necessarily like it virtually (given the payment stuff coming out of the HOUSE accounts to pay this guy). Nenyuk definitely doesn't want that. The templarate definitely doesn't want that either, and for the same reasons. It's corruption of the worst sort, and the powers that be simply won't stand for it!
"What, an IC conflict of interest? Nenyuk and the templarate don't like corruption? Do Allanak and Tuluk care about corruption laws like that? That seems so un-Zalanthan!" Take a step back; look at the power structure (and you might also want to read up on American super PACs). If you skip these steps in the process because the employer should be able to catapult the entrepreneur upwards, you must understand that this makes the power structure unhappy. Nenyuk misses out on money. If the entrepreneur works directly for Valika, on Valika official payroll, they (technically) have the virtual House backing them in some capacity. This is bad for Nenyuk because it has to consider the larger picture and not just the one guy. If (instead) the entrepreneur is not officially affiliated with Valika in any officially employed capacity, Nenyuk can then feel free to lean on them in a real capacity, whether virtual or animated, and not worry about "official" backlash. Templars also miss out on money. They want their palms greased. Taxes, fees, licensing, bribes, all of that. Mess with a Valika employee too much and you might get Valika pissed off, but mess with some guy that a Valika noble likes, and you don't necessarily have the same concerns. You can push them harder, and it's exceptionally unlikely that the larger virtual House gets involved. So Nenyuk (and the local Templarate) would be pretty keen on making sure that the law is such that it requires such an "official" separation between the person that is a registered merchant and whomever might be their backer.
"Wait, so you mean...it's just an official thing? Like, this guy's been working for my noble for 3 years, he wants to start his own business or I want him to do it to be my lackey and I have to fire him/make him leave my employ?" Yes.
"But could I still just pay him out of pocket on my own to do this thing?" Sure. That's also an OOC limiter in this regard, though it's a smaller one. Nobles can hire people and those people can then get automatically paid by that virtual House every week...but if they are not on the payroll/in the clan, they cannot get paid automatically. Instead, they have to rely on noble coin, which (although paid out each week to the noble in a sizable amount) is finite. It also only comes from that one noble, rather than represented as coin coming from the House, which takes us back to the corruption that the system would (hopefully) encourage.
And that's why politics in real life sucks, but also why it can be pretty fun in-game.
Nice. I get it ;D Thanks for the clarification.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2014, 11:00:12 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on November 13, 2014, 09:51:25 PM
1. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kurac (as well as supported by House Oash in the senate), your house rose to prominence for its trade in prostitution. Since Kurac is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to open up a tent in Luirs to peddle ass out of as well (taking a cut of the profits for themselves of course). Doable?
The short answer is yes; the long answer depends on actually securing that sort of contract both IC and having it pass muster with staff. In general, this specific idea seems okay, but shouldn't be taken as tacit approval of such an idea two years down the road from now.
Quote2. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kadius(as well as supported by House Fale in the senate), your house sells sandcloth clothes that look stylish. Since Kadius is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to have one of your men sell out of their pavilion in Red Storm. Doable?
Mostly the same as above except this time it needs more review due to it being in Red Storm, and likely more virtual contract wrangling stuff.
Quote
3. You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak (a wannabe T'zai Byn) that's been sponsored by House Borsail, primarily by supplying them with beasts for the Arenas. Since Borsail is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide they'll provide slave labor to help build you a base of operations closer to where the beasties are. Doable?
Less likely. All of the rest are in civilized locations that are themselves protected; it is unlikely in the extreme that Borsail or this lesser merchant house would either have, utilize, or waste the resources for a permanently manned base away from the city.
A locked up, unmanned, PC-only sort of outpost, subject to destruction by whomever might want to come by? Maybe. At that point, see all of the above.
Do all of that first and then get back with us. There are tons of possibilities here, I wouldn't get hung up on the specifics of one or two that are farfetched.
I wonder about kind of the opposite of this? Say you have a non aligned family out of the Table lands (some non clanned human tribals), that develops a cool product and wants to establish a Trading Company in X city state. Is this possible, or must the PC be a citizen of the city state they want to start their company in?
Quote from: Norcal on November 17, 2014, 11:13:34 AM
I wonder about kind of the opposite of this? Say you have a non aligned family out of the Table lands (some non clanned human tribals), that develops a cool product and wants to establish a Trading Company in X city state. Is this possible, or must the PC be a citizen of the city state they want to start their company in?
This is possible, but only if Jihae is gibbous and Lirathu winks at you on the fifth day of the month of Ascending Sun.
This is also a farfetched idea, like the other ones laid out before. You're laying out several things and then asking if this specific end goal is possible. There are several assumptions here.
OK, you have a human tribal group that is not really worth much of anything, so it's mostly a virtual tribe. Also, they care about coin and want to interact with the city-states (many tribes do not do the former and prefer to barter and have the tribe's interests at heart, not "capitalism"). Also, they trust banks and trust the city-states to the point that they'd give their money towards one of the city-states even though they are tribals out of the Tablelands. (I suppose there is logic here that exchanging this "cool product" for "clinky bits of obsidian" in exchange for "other stuff" is good for the tribe, but the richer your tribe becomes in relation to its miniscule size, the more likely it is that it will fall prey to raiders.)
Let's move past all of that and assume it's all kosher and makes sense.
That's all
before you get to the other assumptions that assume you are successful at each stage. You go to the city-state and you become a registered merchant and probably get taxed out the ass because why not, you're a dirty human tribal and aren't even a citizen of the city, who gives a crap whether you get mad about it? "What are you gonna do, move away?" Then you somehow survive at least a year of (one would hope) potentially grueling conditions in which the city folk screw your PC over, and you decide that you're going to throw even more money at this situation and invest in a warehouse. Meanwhile, you've probably been keeping track of your virtual tribe and are trying to do what is best for them, but they're still out in the wastes and you and maybe some other PC tribemates are now in the city, trying to make money to pay for things that can be used for them, even while you're getting taxed out the ass. Somehow you manage to survive for another year or so and you get the bright idea that, yes, you can hire your tribal cousin and have him/her run the shop for you in the city. You pay out the ass to do it and now you've got a shop selling this "cool product". Meanwhile, a mugging goes poorly and your cousin dies in the city when someone attacks him. Oh no, now you have to get another cousin...or maybe some non-family/non-tribal person that you can "trust" to treat your shop well. Is the virtual tribe angry? Maybe, but let's move on with this idea to make a trading company. Well, of course you hire someone new to manage this shop thing--you're in this far, why not? You also hire another guy to guard the shop, because it's a great idea. And then finally, over the course of (at least) five years and paying massive amounts of money towards the city-state, you get to a point where you say,
you know what? This has been such a great idea, we're barely making money but we're able to take care of the tribe, right--let's throw more money at this. I'll go get with this totally non-tribal group to give me more funding in exchange for me getting a compound--hey, I can move the tribe into the city, too. Hmm, well, even though you've got the potential backing of some group of humans in the city-state that are willing to give you money in exchange for you being their vanguard of tribal derp--because at this point, you've probably consigned your entire tribe to the fate of being associated with a city-state indefinitely--now you have to actually get IC approval from a Red Robe equivalent.
Bribes can ease all passages, perhaps, but what gambles are you prepared to make? Are you prepared to try and become a citizen? That's a lengthy process in Tuluk, and if there is such a process in Allanak, one can probably expect it would be either lengthy or costly (or both). What does this do to your tribal identity, does this matter to you at all? Are you a sellout now? How is this affecting the tribe? Do they disown you? Let's assume that you do happen to fulfill whatever obligations that the city-state has on you...great! Now you've completed your goal! Your tribe is now indebted to foreigners (and you've become one yourself, more than likely betraying the heritage you grew up with), but it's all okay because as long as you make enough of that "cool product" and everything goes perfectly well, you probably will be able to continue paying tons of these clinky bits of sharp volcanic rocks out to people that you don't really know, and may possibly make some kind of profit (meaning you have more coins than you owe), which you can use...wait, why'd you do this again?
Anyway, the short answer: probably not, you probably need to be a citizen.
The slightly longer answer: Play a good human tribal and do
that. If the rest comes about while you play a good human tribal group over the course of many IC years, then that is great. Expect to fail miserably and be treated poorly because you're not a local, and expect that you'll probably never see your way through this system.
Ok, thanks. I was wondering because of this:
c.950 (Year 26 Age 13)
The well-known dune traders of the realm begin to organize into merchant companies.
I thought it would be fun to replicate this happening for another dune trader group, to the extent possible. Yet your arguments make sense, and obviously, the times have changed.
Quote from: Nyr on November 17, 2014, 12:23:42 PM
The slightly longer answer: Play a good human tribal and do that. If the rest comes about while you play a good human tribal group over the course of many IC years, then that is great. Expect to fail miserably and be treated poorly because you're not a local, and expect that you'll probably never see your way through this system.
I view this whole system as 99% giving the player base something to daydream about and hope to build, rather than actually managing to pull off in most cases. For dune traders, or citizens alike. Just seeing all the upstarts and failures will create tons of fun for the game though.
Quote from: Norcal on November 17, 2014, 05:07:21 PM
Ok, thanks. I was wondering because of this:
c.950 (Year 26 Age 13)
The well-known dune traders of the realm begin to organize into merchant companies.
I thought it would be fun to replicate this happening for another dune trader group, to the extent possible. Yet your arguments make sense, and obviously, the times have changed.
Understand that the process of "historical dune traders organizing into merchant companies" occurred over the course of 200 years, from "it being mentioned in 950" to "mercantilism rises." This occurred AFTER the evolution of bendune into cavilish. This is the process that this language went through:
QuoteCavilish (Languages)
Part of the so-called 'nomadic' group of languages, this tongue was
evidently descended directly from Bendune. It shares most of the same
characteristics, such as vowel usage, but possesses a sentence-structuring
approach more similar to that of Sirihish or Tatlum.
The legendary dune traders of ages past, once traveling merchants of
nomadic heritage who spoke Bendune, settled in the city-states at Gol
Krathu and Vrun Driath somewhere in the vicinity of one thousand years
after the Dragon's departure from the Known World. At once they began to
adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish. Within
their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech.
With the passage of generations, the younger family members, eager to
assimilate more fully into the culture of the city-states, made more and
more use of Sirihish language structures. As time wore on, their native
Bendune became so changed that it was categorized by scholars as its own
language.
Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the
Merchants' Tongue, since it is used almost exclusively by the current
members and owning families of Merchant Houses.
150 years after the rise of mercantilism, the economy was almost entirely in the hands of the Great Merchant Houses. We are now 300 years beyond even
that point. I guess my point here is that using stuff that happened 600 years ago in-game as inspiration for an idea is fine, but the game itself has also moved on from there. If you want to make a trading company, establish one as a citizen. The work of tribals 600 years ago made it possible for you to do this.