Discussion of Player-Created Clan Progression

[HavokBlue]

I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.

This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas.  There is a reason they are less civilized.

What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?

get out of my swamp

[wizturbo]

What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?

What do you mean by this?  Examples?

[MeTekillot]

sand lord v.2.0.

[wizturbo]

sand lord v.2.0.

Oh, that's easy, just figure out a way to overthrow Sandlord 1.0.  Siege Red Storm.  Make sure to bring lots of sandcloth, webbed-boots and water.

[Nyr]

I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.

This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas.  There is a reason they are less civilized.

What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?

You're going to have to be more specific.  This covers quite a few things.  We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here).  We also answered your previous, similar question (here).  This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting.  This is not for Red Storm.  This is not for Luir's.  This is not for Cenyr.  This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk.  This is not for tribes.

[wizturbo]

This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting.  This is not for Red Storm.  This is not for Luir's.  This is not for Cenyr.  This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk.  This is not for tribes.

Nyr, I've got some hypothetical scenarios that I'd love to hear your thoughts on.  I thought it might help alleviate any confusion, and give people an idea of what they could potentially dream up as ambitions for their own hypothetical lesser merchant house concepts.  The common theme of all three examples are satellite operations, closely tied to civilization, but not necessarily located there.

1.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kurac (as well as supported by House Oash in the senate), your house rose to prominence for its trade in prostitution.  Since Kurac is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to open up a tent in Luirs to peddle ass out of as well (taking a cut of the profits for themselves of course).  Doable?

2.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kadius(as well as supported by House Fale in the senate), your house sells sandcloth clothes that look stylish.   Since Kadius is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to have one of your men sell out of their pavilion in Red Storm.  Doable?

3.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak (a wannabe T'zai Byn) that's been sponsored by House Borsail, primarily by supplying them with beasts for the Arenas.  Since Borsail is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide they'll provide slave labor to help build you a base of operations closer to where the beasties are.   Doable?  

[Fujikoma]

I just think there's too many lawful clans already, as if people need more excuse to behave like a bunch of venomous serpents, and pander for the support of noble houses and merchant houses. How can you maintain neutrality in regards to trade if your supporters are noble houses and other merchant houses? Doesn't sound like a crew I want to join. Indie forever, suck it, clannies.

Though OOCly I applaud this change and think it's awesome, even if it doesn't benefit me.

[MeTekillot]

you don't maintain neutrality that is the whole thing i think because uh, conflict is a pretty big part of the game?

[Fujikoma]

you don't maintain neutrality that is the whole thing i think because uh, conflict is a pretty big part of the game?

Oh, I get, PLENTY, without having to go looking. I'm like a shit-magnet.

[Molten Heart]

I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.

This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas.  There is a reason they are less civilized.

What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?

You're going to have to be more specific.  This covers quite a few things.  We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here).  We also answered your previous, similar question (here).  This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting.  This is not for Red Storm.  This is not for Luir's.  This is not for Cenyr.  This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk.  This is not for tribes.

Fujiyama's examples are good ones, but this is a very general question asking -how- players can do these generalized things.  Obviously creating a city state is very unlikely, but I've seen player created cairns in the Red Desert as trade route markers.,  How do players start and follow through with the process to do this?  What steps should they take?

[Nyr]

1.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kurac (as well as supported by House Oash in the senate), your house rose to prominence for its trade in prostitution.  Since Kurac is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to open up a tent in Luirs to peddle ass out of as well (taking a cut of the profits for themselves of course).  Doable?

The short answer is yes; the long answer depends on actually securing that sort of contract both IC and having it pass muster with staff.  In general, this specific idea seems okay, but shouldn't be taken as tacit approval of such an idea two years down the road from now.

2.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kadius(as well as supported by House Fale in the senate), your house sells sandcloth clothes that look stylish.   Since Kadius is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to have one of your men sell out of their pavilion in Red Storm.  Doable?

Mostly the same as above except this time it needs more review due to it being in Red Storm, and likely more virtual contract wrangling stuff.

3.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak (a wannabe T'zai Byn) that's been sponsored by House Borsail, primarily by supplying them with beasts for the Arenas.  Since Borsail is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide they'll provide slave labor to help build you a base of operations closer to where the beasties are.   Doable?  

Less likely.  All of the rest are in civilized locations that are themselves protected; it is unlikely in the extreme that Borsail or this lesser merchant house would either have, utilize, or waste the resources for a permanently manned base away from the city.

A locked up, unmanned, PC-only sort of outpost, subject to destruction by whomever might want to come by?  Maybe.  At that point, see all of the above.

Do all of that first and then get back with us.  There are tons of possibilities here, I wouldn't get hung up on the specifics of one or two that are farfetched.

[Nyr]

How can you maintain neutrality in regards to trade if your supporters are noble houses and other merchant houses?

The answer here is that you do not.  That is the point though.

[Nyr]

I'll also be looking forward to when the process is established enough that it can be applied to less civilized areas, because civilization = bad, awful, nasty mess of needless cruelty. More community cooking fires in out of the way places, and maybe armor repair shops, would be nice, too. Thanks for all the hard work on this stuff, the fallout should be hilariously toxic.

This will probably not ever be applied to less civilized areas.  There is a reason they are less civilized.

What can players do (if anything) to create change and improvements in less civilized areas?

You're going to have to be more specific.  This covers quite a few things.  We've said already one thing it doesn't cover (here).  We also answered your previous, similar question (here).  This seems similar to your last question, so I'll reiterate, this system is not for what (I think) you are suggesting.  This is not for Red Storm.  This is not for Luir's.  This is not for Cenyr.  This is not for any place but Allanak and Tuluk.  This is not for tribes.

Fujiyama's examples are good ones, but this is a very general question asking -how- players can do these generalized things.  Obviously creating a city state is very unlikely, but I've seen player created cairns in the Red Desert as trade route markers.,  How do players start and follow through with the process to do this?  What steps should they take?

I think those are good questions.  They probably should be asked in a different thread though. This is the player-created clan progression thread, discussing what we are implementing and what we'll support with that, and not what we'll do with cairns, trade route markers, or creating city-states.  If you have a line of questioning that has led to that point from this particular system, please elaborate so that we can give you an answer that has to do with this system.

[Nyr]

I just think there's too many lawful clans already

Every staff-supported clan in-game is not really close to anything that would be lawful.  The templarate makes the laws.  More specifically, they can make the laws up and also ignore them, in many cases.  Noble houses tend to be above the law.  Merchant Houses tend to exist outside the law due to the massive amount of coin they spend, but they are subject to the laws of the city-state they might be working in.  Sometimes.  And sometimes they aren't.  And sometimes all of the above break the "law" in order to achieve a specific end.  And sometimes they get caught, and sometimes they get punished.

To elaborate on this specific point related to this system, lawful is only as lawful as the templar in your pocket.  If you want to create an organization that is more or less as unlawful as possible, but reaches to the level of being a minor merchant house with the explicit approval of the Triumvirate or the Senate, this is doable.

You'd probably need a legitimate front, though.  Obfuscate your purpose with clever wording, rules, and secrecy.  Also, you'd need deep pockets filled with some sort of resource that the powers that be would enjoy, because you'd be paying off the local authorities on a regular basis.  If you don't have that, you will probably need to be affiliated with someone that has those deep pockets.

[Fujikoma]

I just think there's too many lawful clans already

Every staff-supported clan in-game is not really close to anything that would be lawful.  The templarate makes the laws.  More specifically, they can make the laws up and also ignore them, in many cases.  Noble houses tend to be above the law.  Merchant Houses tend to exist outside the law due to the massive amount of coin they spend, but they are subject to the laws of the city-state they might be working in.  Sometimes.  And sometimes they aren't.  And sometimes all of the above break the "law" in order to achieve a specific end.  And sometimes they get caught, and sometimes they get punished.

To elaborate on this specific point related to this system, lawful is only as lawful as the templar in your pocket.  If you want to create an organization that is more or less as unlawful as possible, but reaches to the level of being a minor merchant house with the explicit approval of the Triumvirate or the Senate, this is doable.

You'd probably need a legitimate front, though.  Obfuscate your purpose with clever wording, rules, and secrecy.  Also, you'd need deep pockets filled with some sort of resource that the powers that be would enjoy, because you'd be paying off the local authorities on a regular basis.  If you don't have that, you will probably need to be affiliated with someone that has those deep pockets.

Thanks much for your inspiration Nyr. You've given me a bit to think about, and I really appreciate it. Hmmmm... deep pockets, hot pockets, I have an idea.

[Evilone]

This is fantastic btw, but I just had a question.

Will there be any sort of system like this implemented for non independants? I don't see merchant houses having a need for the system, though they'd probably love the actual code system set in place to run the shops, but what about partisans to noble families and the like?  I just see a scenario of where a Noble hires on a crafting patron, and wants to eventually back them to open up a shop to be able to sell wares, and maybe even a Trade Company later on. Is this possible or thoughts to tweak the system so they can? Some of them wouldn't necessarily need step 2, depending on the noble, and would like to just go to step 3 then 4 after due time.

[HavokBlue]

I imagine if you want to set up a trading company in the north you're doing to need a patron, so...

[Nyr]

This is fantastic btw, but I just had a question.

Will there be any sort of system like this implemented for non independants? I don't see merchant houses having a need for the system, though they'd probably love the actual code system set in place to run the shops, but what about partisans to noble families and the like?  I just see a scenario of where a Noble hires on a crafting patron, and wants to eventually back them to open up a shop to be able to sell wares, and maybe even a Trade Company later on. Is this possible or thoughts to tweak the system so they can? Some of them wouldn't necessarily need step 2, depending on the noble, and would like to just go to step 3 then 4 after due time.

The scenario you're talking about would likely occur with the noble simply backing someone that would likely be eternally in their pocket in exchange for backing their business venture.  The "hires" part isn't really intended to happen, and shouldn't.

To look at it one way, it's an IC conflict of interest.  You have this guy working for House Vailka who has opened up his own shop.  Valika is paying him to be some sort of Valika employee, but he's also getting money on the side doing his own venture that his Valika noble is backing.  Valika may not necessarily like it virtually (given the payment stuff coming out of the HOUSE accounts to pay this guy).  Nenyuk definitely doesn't want that. The templarate definitely doesn't want that either, and for the same reasons.  It's corruption of the worst sort, and the powers that be simply won't stand for it!

"What, an IC conflict of interest?  Nenyuk and the templarate don't like corruption?  Do Allanak and Tuluk care about corruption laws like that?  That seems so un-Zalanthan!"  Take a step back; look at the power structure (and you might also want to read up on American super PACs).  If you skip these steps in the process because the employer should be able to catapult the entrepreneur upwards, you must understand that this makes the power structure unhappy.  Nenyuk misses out on money.  If the entrepreneur works directly for Valika, on Valika official payroll, they (technically) have the virtual House backing them in some capacity.  This is bad for Nenyuk because it has to consider the larger picture and not just the one guy.  If (instead) the entrepreneur is not officially affiliated with Valika in any officially employed capacity, Nenyuk can then feel free to lean on them in a real capacity, whether virtual or animated, and not worry about "official" backlash.  Templars also miss out on money.  They want their palms greased.  Taxes, fees, licensing, bribes, all of that.  Mess with a Valika employee too much and you might get Valika pissed off, but mess with some guy that a Valika noble likes, and you don't necessarily have the same concerns.  You can push them harder, and it's exceptionally unlikely that the larger virtual House gets involved.  So Nenyuk (and the local Templarate) would be pretty keen on making sure that the law is such that it requires such an "official" separation between the person that is a registered merchant and whomever might be their backer.

"Wait, so you mean...it's just an official thing?  Like, this guy's been working for my noble for 3 years, he wants to start his own business or I want him to do it to be my lackey and I have to fire him/make him leave my employ?"  Yes.

"But could I still just pay him out of pocket on my own to do this thing?"  Sure.  That's also an OOC limiter in this regard, though it's a smaller one.  Nobles can hire people and those people can then get automatically paid by that virtual House every week...but if they are not on the payroll/in the clan, they cannot get paid automatically.  Instead, they have to rely on noble coin, which (although paid out each week to the noble in a sizable amount) is finite.  It also only comes from that one noble, rather than represented as coin coming from the House, which takes us back to the corruption that the system would (hopefully) encourage.

And that's why politics in real life sucks, but also why it can be pretty fun in-game.

[Evilone]

Nice. I get it Thanks for the clarification.

[Norcal]

1.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kurac (as well as supported by House Oash in the senate), your house rose to prominence for its trade in prostitution.  Since Kurac is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to open up a tent in Luirs to peddle ass out of as well (taking a cut of the profits for themselves of course).  Doable?

The short answer is yes; the long answer depends on actually securing that sort of contract both IC and having it pass muster with staff.  In general, this specific idea seems okay, but shouldn't be taken as tacit approval of such an idea two years down the road from now.

2.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak that's been sponsored by House Kadius(as well as supported by House Fale in the senate), your house sells sandcloth clothes that look stylish.   Since Kadius is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide it's okay for you to have one of your men sell out of their pavilion in Red Storm.  Doable?

Mostly the same as above except this time it needs more review due to it being in Red Storm, and likely more virtual contract wrangling stuff.

3.  You manage to build a lesser merchant house in Allanak (a wannabe T'zai Byn) that's been sponsored by House Borsail, primarily by supplying them with beasts for the Arenas.  Since Borsail is your house's sponsor, and they love you, they decide they'll provide slave labor to help build you a base of operations closer to where the beasties are.   Doable?  

Less likely.  All of the rest are in civilized locations that are themselves protected; it is unlikely in the extreme that Borsail or this lesser merchant house would either have, utilize, or waste the resources for a permanently manned base away from the city.

A locked up, unmanned, PC-only sort of outpost, subject to destruction by whomever might want to come by?  Maybe.  At that point, see all of the above.

Do all of that first and then get back with us.  There are tons of possibilities here, I wouldn't get hung up on the specifics of one or two that are farfetched.

I wonder about kind of the opposite of this?  Say you have a non aligned family out of the Table lands (some non clanned human tribals), that develops a cool product and wants to establish a Trading Company in X city state.  Is this possible, or must the PC be a citizen of the city state they want to start their company in?

[Nyr]

I wonder about kind of the opposite of this?  Say you have a non aligned family out of the Table lands (some non clanned human tribals), that develops a cool product and wants to establish a Trading Company in X city state.  Is this possible, or must the PC be a citizen of the city state they want to start their company in?

This is possible, but only if Jihae is gibbous and Lirathu winks at you on the fifth day of the month of Ascending Sun.

This is also a farfetched idea, like the other ones laid out before.  You're laying out several things and then asking if this specific end goal is possible.  There are several assumptions here.

OK, you have a human tribal group that is not really worth much of anything, so it's mostly a virtual tribe.  Also, they care about coin and want to interact with the city-states (many tribes do not do the former and prefer to barter and have the tribe's interests at heart, not "capitalism").  Also, they trust banks and trust the city-states to the point that they'd give their money towards one of the city-states even though they are tribals out of the Tablelands.  (I suppose there is logic here that exchanging this "cool product" for "clinky bits of obsidian" in exchange for "other stuff" is good for the tribe, but the richer your tribe becomes in relation to its miniscule size, the more likely it is that it will fall prey to raiders.)

Let's move past all of that and assume it's all kosher and makes sense.

That's all before you get to the other assumptions that assume you are successful at each stage.  You go to the city-state and you become a registered merchant and probably get taxed out the ass because why not, you're a dirty human tribal and aren't even a citizen of the city, who gives a crap whether you get mad about it?  "What are you gonna do, move away?"  Then you somehow survive at least a year of (one would hope) potentially grueling conditions in which the city folk screw your PC over, and you decide that you're going to throw even more money at this situation and invest in a warehouse.  Meanwhile, you've probably been keeping track of your virtual tribe and are trying to do what is best for them, but they're still out in the wastes and you and maybe some other PC tribemates are now in the city, trying to make money to pay for things that can be used for them, even while you're getting taxed out the ass.  Somehow you manage to survive for another year or so and you get the bright idea that, yes, you can hire your tribal cousin and have him/her run the shop for you in the city.  You pay out the ass to do it and now you've got a shop selling this "cool product".  Meanwhile, a mugging goes poorly and your cousin dies in the city when someone attacks him.  Oh no, now you have to get another cousin...or maybe some non-family/non-tribal person that you can "trust" to treat your shop well.  Is the virtual tribe angry?  Maybe, but let's move on with this idea to make a trading company.  Well, of course you hire someone new to manage this shop thing--you're in this far, why not?  You also hire another guy to guard the shop, because it's a great idea.  And then finally, over the course of (at least) five years and paying massive amounts of money towards the city-state, you get to a point where you say, you know what?  This has been such a great idea, we're barely making money but we're able to take care of the tribe, right--let's throw more money at this.  I'll go get with this totally non-tribal group to give me more funding in exchange for me getting a compound--hey, I can move the tribe into the city, too.  Hmm, well, even though you've got the potential backing of some group of humans in the city-state that are willing to give you money in exchange for you being their vanguard of tribal derp--because at this point, you've probably consigned your entire tribe to the fate of being associated with a city-state indefinitely--now you have to actually get IC approval from a Red Robe equivalent.

Bribes can ease all passages, perhaps, but what gambles are you prepared to make?  Are you prepared to try and become a citizen?  That's a lengthy process in Tuluk, and if there is such a process in Allanak, one can probably expect it would be either lengthy or costly (or both).  What does this do to your tribal identity, does this matter to you at all?  Are you a sellout now?  How is this affecting the tribe?  Do they disown you?  Let's assume that you do happen to fulfill whatever obligations that the city-state has on you...great!  Now you've completed your goal!  Your tribe is now indebted to foreigners (and you've become one yourself, more than likely betraying the heritage you grew up with), but it's all okay because as long as you make enough of that "cool product" and everything goes perfectly well, you probably will be able to continue paying tons of these clinky bits of sharp volcanic rocks out to people that you don't really know, and may possibly make some kind of profit (meaning you have more coins than you owe), which you can use...wait, why'd you do this again?

Anyway, the short answer:  probably not, you probably need to be a citizen.

The slightly longer answer:  Play a good human tribal and do that.  If the rest comes about while you play a good human tribal group over the course of many IC years, then that is great.  Expect to fail miserably and be treated poorly because you're not a local, and expect that you'll probably never see your way through this system.

[Norcal]

Ok, thanks.  I was wondering because of this:

c.950 (Year 26 Age 13)
The well-known dune traders of the realm begin to organize into merchant companies.

I thought it would be fun to replicate this happening for another dune trader group, to the extent possible. Yet your arguments make sense, and obviously, the times have changed.

[wizturbo]

The slightly longer answer:  Play a good human tribal and do that.  If the rest comes about while you play a good human tribal group over the course of many IC years, then that is great.  Expect to fail miserably and be treated poorly because you're not a local, and expect that you'll probably never see your way through this system.

I view this whole system as 99% giving the player base something to daydream about and hope to build, rather than actually managing to pull off in most cases.  For dune traders, or citizens alike.  Just seeing all the upstarts and failures will create tons of fun for the game though.

[Nyr]

Ok, thanks.  I was wondering because of this:

c.950 (Year 26 Age 13)
The well-known dune traders of the realm begin to organize into merchant companies.

I thought it would be fun to replicate this happening for another dune trader group, to the extent possible. Yet your arguments make sense, and obviously, the times have changed.

Understand that the process of "historical dune traders organizing into merchant companies" occurred over the course of 200 years, from "it being mentioned in 950" to "mercantilism rises."  This occurred AFTER the evolution of bendune into cavilish.  This is the process that this language went through:

Cavilish                                                          (Languages)

   Part of the so-called 'nomadic' group of languages, this tongue was
evidently descended directly from Bendune. It shares most of the same
characteristics, such as vowel usage, but possesses a sentence-structuring
approach more similar to that of Sirihish or Tatlum.

   The legendary dune traders of ages past, once traveling merchants of
nomadic heritage who spoke Bendune, settled in the city-states at Gol
Krathu and Vrun Driath somewhere in the vicinity of one thousand years
after the Dragon's departure from the Known World. At once they began to
adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish. Within
their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech.

   With the passage of generations, the younger family members, eager to
assimilate more fully into the culture of the city-states, made more and
more use of Sirihish language structures. As time wore on, their native
Bendune became so changed that it was categorized by scholars as its own
language.

   Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the
Merchants' Tongue, since it is used almost exclusively by the current
members and owning families of Merchant Houses.

150 years after the rise of mercantilism, the economy was almost entirely in the hands of the Great Merchant Houses.  We are now 300 years beyond even that point.  I guess my point here is that using stuff that happened 600 years ago in-game as inspiration for an idea is fine, but the game itself has also moved on from there.  If you want to make a trading company, establish one as a citizen.  The work of tribals 600 years ago made it possible for you to do this.