Alrighty, after all the talk in the RAT thread about gemmers in 'Nak, I'll bite.
What are your thoughts on gemmers in 'Nak, esteemed GDB Commenter? Are they fine as is? Too overpowered? Too gimped and fatally broken as a PC role?
I personally think that the gemmed mage role is better now than it used to be some years ago, both when they were openly hired by most any House whether noble or merchant, or later in the "X-men days." That said, I also think that a "problem" with how PC gemmed mages are currently treated and act is that most players seemingly aren't quite comfortable with where the gemmers fit in. Are gemmers universally reviled, or are they good traveling companions like the helpfiles might suggest? Do we hate gemmers, or is it totally cool to accept their money that they make from finger wiggling?
It's a difficult line to walk!
I personally think one solution would be to emphasize the indentured nature of gemmer existence by enforcing either an IC law or an IC social norm where normal people don't do magicky or commercial business with gemmed mages without getting permission from a representative of the Powers That Be, in this case from templars or Oashi nobles. That way, the very act of doing business with a mage reinforces how out of the ordinary it is. Under this regime, the X-men still get to interact with nonmutants, but first they need permission from the Department of Homeland Security, and Storm has to work for the Government to keep the weather nice for Congressional golf outings while Colossus is put to work as a cheap Government forklift.
My thoughts on the GEMMED are as follows:
They're very attractive, and it's a shame I usually can't mudsex them as a mundane. We should come together as a community and do something about that.
I believe every single problem listed for these abominations in the RAT thread can be solved by a Zalanthian Hogwarts -- staff, I've got the room descriptions ready to go.
Oh, and, in closing, it's not the job of the gemmed to get up from the bar, newbs - yeah, that's right. I did it. I said it. 'Z' formation finger snap an' roll with it, chumps. It's the job of the mundanes to shower hate and fear, and it's the job of the gemmed to deal with being a social outcast and having limited opportunities to roleplay because of the role they chose.
It's totally fine if a gemmed desperately wants to be friends with his/her loved ones and thought of as another of the pack AGAIN (they ain't chose dat life, dat life chose dem), but it's your job to say, "No."
Honestly, I think the role's fine. If it's not for you, don't play it. Rogue gets caught? Store.
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nah, but, bruh, i wouldnt be caught dead playin' a gemmed. im gonna stick to my overly eccentric warriors with mental disorders. thank you and good day.
Gemmed seem to work fine, although I've only played one.
I don't think there needs to be anything done to make them more isolated, since they're pretty damn isolated as is. Lots of people complain about the gemmed working together, but it's part of the reason they are gemmed in the first place. They add fear and power to the Templarate who are already pretty damn scary.
Most people hate and/or fear magickers ICly, and they should. The Templarate and Oash use them for their own ends despite this, and some desperate people might hire them too.
From my admittedly limited perspective, I think they're fine as is.
To me they're fun the way that Stormers with crew responsibilities are fun--- you trade in lots of casual tavern talk for the rare and glorious roleplaying moments, seeing things that byn warrior/forgot my subguild #463573 two years in the byn will have to wait for an HRPT to see, and compared to them you get this a couple of times a month once the ball gets rolling and that's what you particularly wanted. Also: mountains of waiting. I think some of what it is is that players, by the time they start playing witches, they -know- they're going to be doing lots of waiting with a mundane in Storm/non-kuraci Luir's while they don't know what's in store for them as a witch until they actually try. The mundane in Storm takes advantage of this week's Steam sale, or rents some movies with the window of the client open on the side; I know I didn't do this with my first two witches and that that was part of the problem.
I don't see any problem with how people deal with witches or how witches deal with themselves or other witches apart from obvious or subtle newbie mistakes. Pretty good, guys. I however haven't heard of a gicker raider (i.e. letting their victim survive to spread the tale) in like a thousand years. Tsk tsk. Where's my horrifying death drowning in flames made of water that are also snakes? You know, the ones that sound like my mother calling for help?
I think gickers should be even -more- alienated as an idea in Tuluk. To me, it just seems right now like the bar is lowered slightly because everyone without exception is in the allanaki "doesn't tolerate gicker interaction" category, with some further down, but in a way that can still be found outside of tuluk.
My solution: gickers should be feared to the point where association with a known gicker can get an unprotected person disappeared, and more than that, like trade, should get someone disappeared and their friends under suspicion. These don't put too many new people in inadvertent danger of losing their characters (which is going to happen to pcs one way or the other) and will make gickers a more real danger. We could always use more fear in Tuluk!
Since pc gickers aren't really going to try to play there that much I think, this isn't going to affect gicker playability. In fact, I'd love to be a victim of this next time I play a gicker associater in Tuluk. Some fringe benefits are: people don't tell each other about strange dreams or strange things they've seen, keeping them bottled up in thinks and feels out of fear, or people tell their trusted ones who then tell the templarate for the social climbing or money. I know there's problems with this idea but I'd like to see such massive under-the-water paranoia about it that has eclipsed anything seen before, and see if that atmosphere is worth keeping.
Associating with magickers as a Tuluki citizen probably will get you disappeared.
My complaints about Gemmed roles stems from the fact that I'm not a fan of how they're often treated as a magical toolbox for the Templarate and it's kind of just assumed that if you are a Gemmer you are an auxiliary to any operations the Templarate and the Arm perform, and that as a result of Oash being the only actual employment option for the Gemmed, your only other choice is to submit and be part of the magical toolbox. I feel like there are a lot of npc/vnpc gemmers in roles that PCs can't easily pursue ICly without eliciting a 'what the fuck are you doing son' reaction from other PCs in game. What I mean by this is if you are playing a Gemmed mage, it's kind of expected of you by all the other PCs that your character's job is 'mage' and not 'tailor who turned out to shit fire' or 'bard/performer with the unfortunate ability to cause sandstorms'.
Obviously some people enjoy that or think that's okay. I'm not big on it, and as a result I avoid playing gemmed PCs.
In reply to the last post, Arm is a very "What have you done for me lately" game, especially for a role like a templar.
I tend to agree with a previous statement that the correct portrayal of the role relies more on reactions to your presence more than what you do, but with my one brief, magicker role, I treated myself like an outcast, shied away from the bar, and engaged in trivial self-loathing even around other gemmed. Everyone can pitch in.
Quote from: HavokBlue on June 25, 2014, 01:49:25 AM
magical toolbox for the Templarate
Isn't that exactly what they're supposed to be? The Templars keep them around because they're useful and the commoners leave them be because they fear both the gickers and the Templars. Gemmed are slaves in all but name.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 25, 2014, 04:09:11 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on June 25, 2014, 01:49:25 AM
magical toolbox for the Templarate
Isn't that exactly what they're supposed to be? The Templars keep them around because they're useful and the commoners leave them be because they fear both the gickers and the Templars. Gemmed are slaves in all but name.
it's pretty jarring to get yelled at by a templar because you've been playing your magicker for a whole week and haven't branched anything
Quote from: HavokBlue on June 25, 2014, 04:16:46 AM
Quote from: lordcooper on June 25, 2014, 04:09:11 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on June 25, 2014, 01:49:25 AM
magical toolbox for the Templarate
Isn't that exactly what they're supposed to be? The Templars keep them around because they're useful and the commoners leave them be because they fear both the gickers and the Templars. Gemmed are slaves in all but name.
it's pretty jarring to get yelled at by a templar because you've been playing your magicker for a whole week and haven't branched anything
The Templar should have known better than to expect you to branch, much less within a time period that is shorter than it takes to create a human life.
It would be kind of nice to have an extra clan in Allanak for them, particularly a combat one (already have a good excuse for the templars to want this, I'm willing to bet lots of gickers have died to simply not being able to defend themselves in combat long enough to get saved) with, you know, some other original purpose to exist like House Oash. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that gickers don't combat practice in House Oash. It'd have to be a gemmed quarter clan, but that's perfect. Something to actually keep gemmed in the quarter. Something less fancy and closer to the grit of subsistence than House Oash, probably couldn't get as low class as the Byn because magical toolboxes so many of them, and -nonhumans could join,- actually allowing non-crafting elf gickers to be able to sustain themselves inside the walls. I imagine a smart elf gicker could, certainly. But, seriously? For someone like me, the idea of combining a special app elf gicker with a burglarizing, theft or combat subguild sounds wasteful and OOCly suicidal. This all in mind with the idea that most elf players will try to stay inside the walls if they can help it.
I like gemmed. I've played a lot of them. Their internal struggles with what they are and how others react to them can be a lot of fun, and the fun exponentially rises when you've got a decent number of other gemmed PCs to interact with. But their place in society? Eh, I think that could use a little work.
The "X-Men days" had a lot of great moments, I think. You could play a gemmer and actually get interaction with others and have things to do for more than a small number of people, maybe do a little unofficial work for other clans. The hate/fear was still there with the good ones, but there was still begrudged cooperation going on.
Things did get out of hand though, with gemmed expecting to be treated like normal people and normal people actually treating them like *GASP* peers.
After the end of the world plots dried up, I feel like things went from one extreme to the other. The "gemmed should be isolated" mentality never held much water with me, because that mage is making the choice (or having the choice made for them) to be open about their nature and try to find a place in society. A rogue mage should be isolated. A gemmer should be able to have something more, even if no one is particularly happy to give it to them.
Most of the available opportunties are limited to grebbing or Oash. Templars will make use of them, sure, but those chances are few and far between depending on which element you pick. Some can offer their services and be bombarded with opportunity, while the ones who picked wrong might have to wait for months.
I've seen the idea for a gemmed tavern get thrown around a lot, and the reasoning not to make one seems to boil down to - but that would make gemmed have fewer reasons to go out into the other parts of the city and interact with people. Well... the mundane population is already doing a fine job of not giving gemmed a reason to be around others, unless they want to ask about the weather and be told, at best, to fuck off.
I never got to play in Tor, but I remember how back in the day they would be willing to hire on a small number of war mages to complement their mundane soldiers. I've been wishing to see something like that again. Find roles in other clans that can make use of gemmed, and make use of them to support mundanes rather than replace them entirely.
Or go in the other direction and turn the gemmed quarter into a self-sustained community. Build up the walls more, make it harder for outsiders to get in and the gemmed to get out. Let gemmed have their own separate culture, have means of survival that don't require going out into the normal parts of the city, and place shops with the things they'd need to live. The Circle of Magi from Dragon Age comes to mind.
Either way, I'd like to see something change. Because right now, the game world doesn't seem to know what it wants to do with gemmed. They could be removed entirely and it wouldn't shake up the status quo any.
Can't take my Gemmed away, tried already, Tek said no.
Having played a few Gemmed, I'd say they're like any other clan/group in the game, they have high points and low points, pros and cons. Like Delves, they're isolated, but not to the extreme delve clans are, there's plenty of opportunity to create and invest in your own plots, and at times, the gemmed community can be really hopping.
Quote
Elementalist Culture
(Magick Roleplay)
The Elementalist Temples in Allanak were built by the city as a way to deal with the elementalist population of Allanak. They were not built by the elementalists, or for the elementalists, or to attract elementalists to the city (although this has been an undesirable side effect).
By building the temples the city has created a place where elementalists can go and cast safely. This is in the belief that they're going to cast no matter what you do, so it might as well be somewhere safe, where you can keep an eye on them -- not to mention removed from the rest of the city into a quarter all their own.
The mentality of living in a city-state is that this is where you were born, this is where you will die, and spending your life anywhere else is almost unthinkable. Doubly so for elementalists, many of whom have probably never been away from the city far enough to lose sight of the gates. Life outside of the city, for them, is an almost unthinkably dangerous and barbaric fate.
The Elementalists of Allanak:
Just because an elementalist in Allanak is treated poorly does not mean they have an overwhelming desire to leave the city. Even slaves in a city-state setting will not leave the city-state when given the opportunity, instead fleeing to the slums or possibly trying to pose as an artisan if they have the skills to do so.
One reason for doing this is a lack of knowledge on the conditions of life outside of the city walls. There are gaj, anakore, gith, and worse out in the desert, and what do they know of such things? The land is covered with people that don't even speak a civilized language like sirihish, how would they communicate with them? And what about good wine, music, and comfortable clothing? There are people who will endure the prejudice of a city-state in return for having access to the lifestyle and culture it makes available to them.
Another reason is the exact opposite, knowing exactly what life is like outside of the city walls. Possibly they've traveled, or are from another land, or have gone shadow walking if they're a drovian. They have seen life outside of the city state and don't care for the lawless nature of that life. Within the city-state at least the rules are known, and if observed with a great deal of humility, one can expect to live by them.
There are also undoubtably elementalists who are patriots of the city-state. For whatever reason they hold little or no animosity towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human, and actually use their powers to aid it. These people might be somewhat rare, but they do exist and you will find them in any group of persecuted people.
Elementalists in General:
A thought to keep in mind when working with elementalists is that they're not priests. Or philosophers. Or druids. Or seers. Or Wizards. They do not get their powers by prayer, worship, communing with a greater power, or studying ancient texts. Many of them make no effort whatsoever to nurture their power and never sought it out to begin with. They were born this way and that's that. Some elementalists doubtless view their powers as a curse, but have taken up the life of an elementalist because there's no escaping what they are.
Despite their powers elementalists are mortal, and have the same motivations as others of their race. A dwarven Whiran has a focus like any other dwarf, a Suk-Krathi elf is still sly, and a gypsy Vivaduan still tries to steal babies when she thinks no one is looking. These things don't change just because they can use magick. There is no philosophical bent that comes along with, or is a requirement of, having access to the elemental planes.
A Whiran may have no greater aspiration than to get drunk as often as possible, and only keeps up attendance at his temple because it gives him a community to rely on when times are hard. There are slackers, moochers, and freeloaders in every society, even one made up of elementalists, and they rarely stick around when times get hard.
I think the docs are pretty clear on this point, IMO. The Gemmed population in Allanak is to be accepted, if grudgingly. I can see a Northerner, or tribal from Luirs considering witches might get their powers from fucking animals and eating baby flesh, or whatever, but I'd assume the general 'Nakki, if they're not too retarded, would understand it's something they're born with, they're not defilers, and shouldn't be treated as such.
Sure, treat them with distrust, after all, they use powers. Powers you'll never be able to understand, I mean, c'mon, how does that water witch manage to pull that shit from nowhere? You may think they can curse you, you may even think that they're disgusting for indulging in such activity. However, I think the quarter in 'Nak's been there long enough, and has more than enough NPC's and VNPC's that go to and from the quarter (or should if you envision it right) that the general populace will understand that they have a place in society, around the level of breeds and elves, and serve a purpose.
Besides, Tek tolerates them, as do his Templars, who the fuck are you to question their judgement?
If a Gemmed strolls up to a bar and takes a seat beside you, move, or make him move. These are people who want interaction, probably the right kind, fear, mistrust, and a little being told their kind shouldn't be drinking with your kind, probably. These are players who've managed to show they at least have an inkling of how Magic works and is viewed in Zalanthas, and expect to be treated so, why else would they play a gemmed mage?
Instead of trying to improve or remove the gemmed's place in the game world, I'd like to see more people taking note of the docs, and thinking about it. Witches will happen anyway, better the witch you know, than the witch you don't.
I think that makes sense.
By the same token, Kol -
Sometimes I'd see a new player's PC, or someone who just isn't "getting it" show up and sit at the bar where there's a mage, and the person looks at them - obviously able to see the gem - and just starts treating the mage like any random stranger at the bar.
As someone who plays a gemmed mage on occasion, I find _that_ to be jarring. How do I respond to it? Well it depends. If I think it's truly a new player, and not just someone who's played before and -should- know better but has chosen not to..
then I might RP out confusion as to why they're treating my character as a normal person. I might ask them outright - and include my gem in an emote somehow to emphasize that I'm a gemmed mage and that should mean _something_ to them, for better or worse.
Or, if my character is a mean nasty ornery type, I might - again - indicate the gem somehow for emphasis - and tell them not to come so close because I'm in a bad mood and their dick might fall off.
If it's someone who -should- know better, but has chosen not to, I might do the same - but a little more forceful. And maybe treat that gem-lover like a pariah. I mean what sane mundane person would go out of their way to be nice to a gemmer they've never met before?
If my character has a history of interaction with a mundane, then there's plenty of opportunity for a certain amount of relaxation in the relationship, even if it's just a mutual tolerance. But when mundane and mage encounter each other for the very first time, there shouldn't be any room for that relaxation. There should be *some* amount of stress involved. And if there isn't, then whoever is NOT stressing, should be called out on it, in one way or another.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 25, 2014, 09:28:07 AM
Sometimes I'd see ... someone who just isn't "getting it" show up and sit at the bar where there's a mage, and the person looks at them - obviously able to see the gem - and just starts treating the mage like any random stranger at the bar.
Maybe that person is a rogue mage, and so doesn't react to magick with the same degree of fear and hate. Cause for suspicion but not necessarily bad roleplay.
I want to clear one thing up in here.
Gemmers are not glorified Templar slaves. Commoners are glorified slaves.
If a templar tells a commoner to do something, he had better do so ASAP. Gemmed are no exception to this.
Having to obey the templarate isn't what makes gemmers special, as that applies to everyone. What makes gemmers special is the templarate actually wanting to use them.
I think the OP's idea is something that already happens - just that it's done in back-rooms between templars and nobles/commoners who matter. I'm not sure Allanaki culture and attitudes would support something like an official license/contract Tuluki shadow artist-like system, but modified for the gemmed. On the one hand, templars like money, but on the other hand, they like the concentration of power that is provided by their absolute control of the gemmed. (And I would assume that power wins out.)
Still though, I like the thought of giving isolated roles more to do without having to ICly break the rules. I'm just not sure what to give gemmed, since they are easily the least-isolated isolated role. They can still interact with people, even if they are not trusted. They will always have one or more PC bosses to give them tasks to work on. The only thing I would advocate for gemmed is more opportunities for clanned employment besides Oash, because sometimes Oash fills up, and someone who really wants to be in a clan suddenly can't. Having a gemmed war-mage unit of the AoD makes a lot of sense to me, personally.
As for the overall wording of the descriptions of roles, I think it's long past time to strip phrases like "Stone mages make for great traveling companions" and such from the docs. I think it would be exceptional (not necessarily incorrect, but unusual) for an Allanaki commoner to hire a gemmed mage in this manner - these attitudes seem to apply to tribes with a more relaxed view of mages. To compensate, build up that Elementalist Culture documentation the documentation of other clans and groups. Define the "usual" role and perception of magickers individually for various areas of the world, and clans and tribes. Give players a clearly defined range of attitudes for their characters to start with about magick based on their origins and affiliations and let players develop their attitudes over time as they play.
Zai, there kind of is a Gemmed tavern.
I really like Red Ranger's idea, and it seems to fit Allanak thematically to me, but I think the problem is execution. There aren't Templars around all the time, which would mean anytime one wasn't around, no Gemmed and mundane could really get much done. And even when they are around, they're busy a lot.
Patuk has a point about everyone being beneath the Templarate's thumb, but there are things that distinguish the relationship between Gemmed and Templars and commoners and Templars. I don't want to get too IC here, but the temples are one obvious aspect of this. The Templarate provides a place for Gemmed to live. That in itself is a pretty big difference, and might be suggestive of some other aspects of the dynamic there.
Kol, the reasoning that 'Templars accept Gemmed so you should too' is perfectly logical, but think about this - have you ever seen a Templar get mad at a commoner for being mean to a Gemmed? Even if you have, how often have you seen it versus a Templar getting mad at someone for being mean to any of their other servants, like soldiers? There might be a reason for the difference.
I'd prefer gemmed to be segregated to their quarter and be rarely seen in the common populace. Give them their own watering hole in their neck of the woods.
Tolerated, not accepted, because:
Quote from: Kol on June 25, 2014, 08:58:32 AM
Besides, Tek tolerates them, as do his Templars, who the fuck are you to question their judgement?
Trusted? Heh. No. If they were trusted they wouldn't be wearing those lovely collars that keep them in check.
Also, I've played a gemmed whose primary role was not "gemmed". This character had another, mercantile profession. And it was very interesting to play, because while people were willing to use this PC's services, they were still disdainful on a personal level and had no respect for the level of skill exhibited in the work, because the artisan was a magicker. It was pretty cool.
Quote from: James de Monet on June 25, 2014, 03:39:37 PM
I really like Red Ranger's idea, and it seems to fit Allanak thematically to me, but I think the problem is execution. There aren't Templars around all the time, which would mean anytime one wasn't around, no Gemmed and mundane could really get much done. And even when they are around, they're busy a lot.
I see your concern that that requiring templarate approval of official gemmed-mundane transactions could decrease interaction for gemmer PCs, but I actually think it would INCREASE the interaction. Right now there IS some interaction between the two but to me it seems fitful and it often defaults to one extreme or the other: murderous rage over a gemmer setting foot in the Gaj vs blithe acceptance, "Hey he may be a walking tac nuke with leprosy but I'll happily outfit him with the finest gear marked with my GMH sigil 'cause his money is good here!" I think that my proposed change will increase interaction because it'll OOC'ly show players an obvious way to acknowledge that gemmers are different and dangerous while still interacting with them in a way other than the two extremes above.
Essentially, I think that the effect will be similar to the Freakonomics anecdote about parents picking up their kids late from daycares in Israel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aUhHb9bwdI).
Operationally, I think it could play out that the mundanes wanting to hire gemmers to do Magicky Thing X would seek out a templar or Oashi noble for written permission to hire a mage to do X. Alternatively, the gemmer could seek out the templar for written permission to take jobs doing Y. It could be flexible depending on all the personalities involved. Of course, there would be nothing stopping mundanes and gemmers from carrying out transactions without approval... but if they're caught there would be consequences.
Okay, do you think you could get the best of both worlds then by introducing a gemmed business license?
It would be an analogue to the current merchant's token, where one person in every transaction would have to have one. Mundanes might not want one themselves, because it would make then look like a wiggler lover, but a gemmed with one would be shown to be "safe" for commoners to do business with (like a dog with a 'pet me, I'm friendly' sign).
It would give Templars a stream of revenue, but also give them another way to control the gemmed, because now they could threaten to take their license away.
Edited to add: But the most important part is, it wouldn't hinder real-time interactions. You wouldn't need a Templar present to set up a deal if someone already had a license.
That's kind of a neat idea and it doesn't really require any work on the part of staff. Just an enterprising Templar PC.
It can be pretty damn hard as a newly gemmed merchant to keep doing business in that line of work. I like that idea.
Quote from: James de Monet on June 25, 2014, 05:36:31 PM
Okay, do you think you could get the best of both worlds then by introducing a gemmed business license?
It would be an analogue to the current merchant's token, where one person in every transaction would have to have one. Mundanes might not want one themselves, because it would make then look like a wiggler lover, but a gemmed with one would be shown to be "safe" for commoners to do business with (like a dog with a 'pet me, I'm friendly' sign).
It would give Templars a stream of revenue, but also give them another way to control the gemmed, because now they could threaten to take their license away.
Edited to add: But the most important part is, it wouldn't hinder real-time interactions. You wouldn't need a Templar present to set up a deal if someone already had a license.
Well, what I had in mind is that templars would hand out written permissions on a scroll, and each scroll would include the unique conditions of the permission.
So if Salarri Sam wants to hire Krathi Karl to provide fiery backup for a hunting mission, then Salarri Sam can go to Lord Templar Hardnose and get a scroll that says, "Salarri Sam hereby has my sanction to hire one (1) mage for their expedition to hunt mutant turnips to be completed by Feb 30, 2088. Signed, L.T. H.Nose."
Alternatively, maybe Krathi Karl is favored by Lord Templar Hardnose and he's already given Krathi Karl a scroll that says, "Krathi Karl henceforth has my explicit sanction to take contracts from any and all Allanaki citizens to provide his fiery magicks outside of the city's walls, up to and including conjuring his Flaming Pizza Bites. Signed, L.T. H.Nose." So in that case Salarri Sam would just need to ask Krathi Karl to help with the hunt, and Krathi Karl could help without having to gain another specific approval.
Right now there are individuals who interact with gemmed for whatever reason. Most of them are very private about it in both interaction and dealings with them. Basically there are people that sometimes hire a mage, especially when there are no mundanes to do the job that requires to be done or the job is rather insane for anything short of a small army of mundanes. I think that all perfectly fine. For the most part gemmers at the tavern are ignored and that's about right as well. Its a more isolated role in terms of interaction. And it should remain so, otherwise, there would be little to no draw backs in playing a mage.
That said, mages are people first, yes they should be considered monsters, but my mage was just a regular person before he sudden manifested. My gemmer had the same urges any normal person would have, just that he was cursed with power. He did make friends, with the scum of society, just to give an example one was a rinthi breed. Many of the people he hung out with were breed or mutants, they were outcasts in their own way.
In regards to the ideas here though I wouldn't mind seeing large merchant houses or organization dealing with oash or templars and hiring mage services as support for whatever they are doing from time to time. Maybe under the table stuff too. The mage would need to know their place, they are just there to do a job, not make friends or interact too deeply with the heroes of the plot, the mundanes. There is a big difference between having a mage do some work for you, and being friends and chummy with one. I don't want to see someone inviting them to sit with them at a tavern, but taking them along on a really dangerous mission sounds okay to me.
I actually liked the x-men days of mages, especially the rogue mages, when every tribal elf was either a mage or in league with one. I didn't play one at the time, but was pretty involved in plotlines that were magick-heavy. It put the "awe" in awesome, for me. I was truly in awe of the effects, even the cantrips - the coded abilities, everything. I still am, and I've played several mages since then.
While I appreciate the need to -not- have a Allanaki Mage Council Part Deux, I think the game could benefit from having some kind of clan, or offshoot of a clan, for mages. Perhaps something like what the Atrium was intended to do with spies and assassins Aides and Concubines. In that way, more veteran players of mages, while playing those mages, could teach folks new to the magick system, or new to playing mages in Allanak, or just anyone who wants to roleplay their character being new to their situation, in a way that's officially sanctioned by the Templarate.
Then, once a member of this group "gets it," they might be pre-qualified to be clanned by any official clan that hires them, or makes use of them. So Oash would have mages who already have the basics of magick down pat, even if they haven't branched anything yet. Tor could hire their war mages again (if Tor was ever reopened). The Byn could even have a trusted, mage-school-approved rukkian on call for scouting expeditions, and individual PCs who -might- be willing to risk perma-tainting, get their healing done (for a small fee) by the local Vivaduan.
I think a general stigma against mages is a good thing and encourage it. Unfortunately, the concept of fantasy magick is just SO damned attractive, that some new players might not really understand the significance of the stigma, and set in-game prejudices aside and intentionally allow their PCs to openly court them or be attracted to them or try to be especially friendly to them.
This is when it really IS up to the player of the mage, to help steer them in the right direction. Even if your character is an angsty breed who just wants to be loved and is being approached by the opportunity for love. You're a breed. You can RP it as suspicion instead and really drive home to that player that it's a bad idea to flirt with, snuggle up to, seek out publically, express personal emotional attachment to, or otherwise show attraction to a mage - without the corresponding disgust and self-loathing that *should* go along with it.
The "you know, you'd be fine-looking, if it weren't for that gem around your neck" should be the closest any mage should get to a "relationship" with a mundane. If the mundane's player doesn't play along from the start, then the player of the mage should set the example in some IC way.
I think that might be some of what some of you have seen in places like the Gaj. When someone who seems fairly new, or even just ICly ignorant, starts chatting up a mage and ignores the fact that there's a gem around their neck - or doesn't understand what it MEANS..
and the gemmer starts reminding them, very blatantly, that if they get too close their dick might fall off.
That's not necessarily a threat that you need to call the Arm over. It might just be the player of a mage, who is observing someone really rejecting the docs that state plainly that mundanes SHOULD have some kind of problem with mages and not be so blatantly friendly with a mage they've never met before.
Once mage and mundane have an actual history, then sure - be friendly (in a "you'd be great if it weren't for the fact that you're a walking time-bomb" kind of way) and freak out the rest of the folks in the bar about it. But until you've established that history, your character -should- be hesitant at best - and avoid or even insult at worst.
The mage should expect to be avoided or insulted, and SHOULD wonder WTF is wrong with the mundane they've never met who is trying to chat them up as if they didn't notice that gem.
On the other hand, anyone who would *openly* insult a mage, in public, should expect their dick to fall off some time in the near future. It goes both ways :)
Quote from: Lizzie on June 29, 2014, 07:24:27 PM
On the other hand, anyone who would *openly* insult a mage, in public, should expect their dick to fall off some time in the near future. should expect their vagina to fall off some time in the near future. It goes both ways :)
I've seen just about enough of that beef bologna, people. Men aren't the only ones stupid enough to insult magickers.
You're damn right it goes both ways.
You see, what I think the Gemmed could really benefit from is something of a constant enemy.
There's a lot of people mentioning the gemmed seal team phenomenon here, and that's something I dislike, too. You could blame the people behind the templars for this in part, but I think this happening is largely due to there being little else for Gemmed to do.
One option is for people playing Gemmed not to comply so well. 'Yes Lord Templar, I'm sure they're dead, nobody could have survived a fireball that big.' 'I dropped him down a hundred cords, Lord Templar, noooooothing to worry about.' 'What do you mean, taunting you right now? I electrocuted him to death!' Barring that, gemmed can hide or go rogue. The problem with situations slike these is that it's a surefire way to get killed by your templar for not being a good little precision nuke, which I am on the fence about.
A second way to remove the prevalence of the gemmed seal team acting as the solution to anything is for them to have an enemy who poses an actual challenge to them. Chances are that one elf who ran off with the sergeant's favorite necklace won't get unavoidably killed by a bored whiran if said whiran is needed to ensure the rogue sorceror won't wipe out every patrol undertaken byHis Arm. I assume here that it is more fun for people to have an actual chalkenge when playing magickers, anyway.
Whereas I do prefer the second solution, the problem is that it's really, really hard to actually pose suxh a threat. As an example, the only thing that keeps the PC Allanaki templarate from wiping out all Sun Legion PC's ever is restraint. Whatever power Muk Utep might grant to his forces is far more cast into the realm of vNPCness than Allanak's magicks are, and so the north really isn't anything of a comparable enemy. When the very archebemy of your city-state has no way of fighting back, you know things are skewed.
I'd say the only real challenge the gemmed can and sometimes do get is a group of rogue magickers. Whereas that's cool and can make for fun plots, it's also not sustainable. If the big bad sorceror/nilazi/whatever happens to die, or enough of his minions kick it, the gemmed are gonna have nothing to do again. Brilliant.
In the end I think that for the Gemmed to have fun and not be the end of every mundane who dares cross a guy somewhere in Allanak, you'll need something to measure up to them. Whether you'll want to do that by adding some antimagick to the game, increase the power present in some clans, or create a more stable, villainous presence is something I have no influence over.
Gemmed have had opponents powerful enough to warrant their full resources before. The problem is that the structure of the MUD doesn't allow indie groups to compete for long because when you reach that point you either get stored or the full city turns its resources against you. If you want gemmed culture to change you need to restructure a lot of the game.
Quote from: Patuk on June 29, 2014, 07:45:00 PM
You see, what I think the Gemmed could really benefit from is something of a constant enemy.
There's a lot of people mentioning the gemmed seal team phenomenon here, and that's something I dislike, too. You could blame the people behind the templars for this in part, but I think this happening is largely due to there being little else for Gemmed to do.
One option is for people playing Gemmed not to comply so well. 'Yes Lord Templar, I'm sure they're dead, nobody could have survived a fireball that big.' 'I dropped him down a hundred cords, Lord Templar, noooooothing to worry about.' 'What do you mean, taunting you right now? I electrocuted him to death!' Barring that, gemmed can hide or go rogue. The problem with situations slike these is that it's a surefire way to get killed by your templar for not being a good little precision nuke, which I am on the fence about.
I agree with the general idea, having a more constant enemy for the gemmed, but I'm not sure what it would actually be. Perhaps environmental
Lying to your commanding templar is most likely a sure way to get killed, and being sloppy while in their presence is probably also a bad idea (if they expect you to be good at what you do). Not focusing 100% on some tasks seems a more reasonable approach: "That guy? Oh I never found him." "The oblong jasper stone you told me to collect 1412 pieces of? Never found any/only found 5." And yes, they can hide or go rogue to some extent. Trying to get that little gem off your neck never seems to get old.
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A second way to remove the prevalence of the gemmed seal team acting as the solution to anything is for them to have an enemy who poses an actual challenge to them. Chances are that one elf who ran off with the sergeant's favorite necklace won't get unavoidably killed by a bored whiran if said whiran is needed to ensure the rogue sorceror won't wipe out every patrol undertaken byHis Arm. I assume here that it is more fun for people to have an actual chalkenge when playing magickers, anyway.
Replace whiran with "a group of gemmed", and they'd be more likely to actually make a difference if they're protecting something/someone against an enemy like a sorcerer. In my most personal experience, leaders and minions have been less interested in going after dangerous enemies (ie, sorcerers) than you'd think they'd be.
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Whereas I do prefer the second solution, the problem is that it's really, really hard to actually pose suxh a threat. As an example, the only thing that keeps the PC Allanaki templarate from wiping out all Sun Legion PC's ever is restraint. Whatever power Muk Utep might grant to his forces is far more cast into the realm of vNPCness than Allanak's magicks are, and so the north really isn't anything of a comparable enemy. When the very archebemy of your city-state has no way of fighting back, you know things are skewed.
Sorcerers who survive a while are usually good at posing that kind of threat. Sometimes to the extent that the gemmed actually don't face up to the challenge and have to play it safe.
I think your example is wrong, simple as that. Both Templarates have powers granted by their Kings. The armies (soldiers) don't. Allanak has gemmed elementalists, which adds a certain advantage but it's far from game breaking. It is however true that both Templarates have vast virtual powers that are rarely directly represented in the game world (a bit more now with the city-state protection changes). In my ~10 years, I have not seen that kind of "wiping out" happen or being close to happening and I strongly doubt it's due to restraint only - the war has been both hot and cold and hot again during that time. Not even in the Copper War did the Allanaki templars or gemmed wipe out the Sun Legion PCs. I know Nak took significant losses among PC templars, soldiers and gemmed during that extended event. That's "no way of fighting back" for you right there.
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I'd say the only real challenge the gemmed can and sometimes do get is a group of rogue magickers. Whereas that's cool and can make for fun plots, it's also not sustainable. If the big bad sorceror/nilazi/whatever happens to die, or enough of his minions kick it, the gemmed are gonna have nothing to do again. Brilliant.
In the end I think that for the Gemmed to have fun and not be the end of every mundane who dares cross a guy somewhere in Allanak, you'll need something to measure up to them. Whether you'll want to do that by adding some antimagick to the game, increase the power present in some clans, or create a more stable, villainous presence is something I have no influence over.
There are lots of challenges for the gemmed, but not all are based on the fact that the gemmed are gemmed, but rather on being people/individuals/characters first and foremost. Of course, some things become challenges because they are gemmed. If you play a gemmed (or any magicker guild) primarily for the magick-related challenges whatever they may be, you'll most likely be disappointed. That's not saying their role in Allanak's society shouldn't or couldn't be adjusted or modified though.
The best part of the copper wars was being able to see allanaki magicks vs tuluki ingenuity. The copper wars really showed off those aspects of the cities. In one part of the copper wars, I remember a group of rukians were being used to sand shield the approaching nakki army, since tuluki soldiers were throwing set up boulders from the top of the cliffs.
This made me fall in love with tuluk for the longest time. The idea that tuluk would use their heads against allanaki who had decided to use magicks to solve their problems. In the face of a seemingly powerful abilities, I would have loved to see tuluk progress more in a way that allowed its mundanes to deal with magick. Better weapons, better poisons, better methods of fighting that were really tuluk only stuff. The way the game currently is doesn't really support much of this though, especially with any ingenuity being centered around GMHs basically. To balance that out however allanaki mundanes need very good reasons to hire or deal with gemmers and making gemmers more or less isolated outside major events.
It just seems what was an intentionally vague gray area gets hit with repeated attempts to set clear boundaries on "it should be this" or "it should be that". Everyone seems to want to treat gemmed the "right" way, so you get trends IG of consistency of behavior. The gray area has been narrowed over time by staff, but I would conjecture that there is still enough that it could be said consistency isn't necessarily a goal.
CAM was interesting, but flawed. If you extend more clan options for gemmed, it should be with the intent of creating conflict between the gemmed. This could be through having them affiliated with organizations that might be in conflict (Oash, Tor, etc), or creating gemmed only organizations that are naturally in conflict with each other. More GMH conflict than Tuluk vs Allanak conflict, as open magickal warfare is going to get squashed, but stuff that keeps gemmers using things other than their magick is good.
What was the question? Uh, I like me a gemmer, it isn't an easy role to be sure, but I don't see anything wrong with it per se. I believe however that much of the discussion here on the GDB about gemmers and magickers in general is detrimental to the role as a whole. I'd hazard it makes people self-conscious/annoyed to play a gemmer/magicker from the get go. As well as those finding themselves in the situation of having to interact with one 'properly'.
More over, nothing is set in stone. The whole experience very much depends on the dynamics between the interacting characters. I played enough gemmed over the years to have experienced the whole spectrum, whether it involved templars, militia, nobles, commoners, even Tulukies - it was fun.
As to the seal team analogy, I guess it happens, but I personally never experienced it, there's always at least one 'liability' dude in the mix who puts everyone in jeopardy, and if there isn't, be that guy. Magickers are weird fuckers.
When I was a southern templar, I felt like my gemmed were constantly dying/getting killed off. Maybe I just wasn't a good templar. :'(
Quote from: valeria on July 02, 2014, 09:31:41 PM
When I was a southern templar, I felt like my gemmed were constantly dying/getting killed off. Maybe I just wasn't a good templar. :'(
Stop pitting them against each other in order to find out which one is the more worthy servant.
There's one thing I've always believed was a problem of perception with both gemmed and elves, they don't get near the range of independent jobs that everyone else has the freedom to have.
Profession Gemmed Elven
Whore n/a Low or nonexistent elf pc numbers, unless you're a breed-lover
Bard Lucky to break even Alright
Thief Hands, feet and head cut off Perfect/expected
Mugger Never leave them alive/storykiller Low strength/game month just to train
Smuggler Dead if caught/give all to templar What are you doing outside the gates?
Crafter-trader No one wants your witch filth Alright
Merchant No one wants to trade with you One guy wants to trade with you
Arm informant Eternal chance of killing you if you hear something good Chance of beatings or becoming a soldier's bitch
Raider Never leave them alive/storykiller Train for a game year before considering
Independent mercenary n/a Train for a game year before considering
Grebber Almost expected What are you doing outside the gates?
Long time ago I stored an elf and I don't remember why, but I remember staff replying that "There's nothing in the documentation that says elves can't greb."
I don't know which of the above are problems of perceptions except the n/a.... I imagine gickers attempting that are going to have dinner with the Arm at some point.
What I mean is a change in perception might benefit these groups, low elf strength and nasty witch in the room not withstanding.
I'm behind the gicker merchant token idea.
Your chart does not translate to mobile. It's all jumbled.
Your chart doesn't translate to my experiences in game either.
For instance a Gemmed thief or a smuggler is super possible, maybe even better than the rogue classes. A Gemmed Raider can have multiple tools at their disposal to not give themselves away so they don't have to kill everyone they run into. Arm informant is probably the #1 job of long lived gemmed pc's of certain elements.
Quote from: i like me some ham on July 03, 2014, 07:58:54 AM
I don't know which of the above are problems of perceptions except the n/a.... I imagine gickers attempting that are going to have dinner with the Arm at some point.
Any raider is having dinner with the Templarate and its soldiers eventually, Gemmed aren't special in that case.
Given how absurdly powerful and prevalent magic is in this setting, I've personally always found it somewhat baffling that more organizations don't keep a few spellcasters on the payroll.
I think people take the hating-them thing too far. Treat them as second-class citizens, sure. Never trust them, sure. But the notion that you wouldn't want a friend who can melt people with the power of his mind or summon oases in the middle of the desert -- knowing that many of your enemies have such friends -- is tough for me to swallow.
I'd like to see a return to what the docs seem to suggest, where certain types of elementalists, particularly Vivaduans, are less hated than others.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 03, 2014, 06:37:50 PM
Your chart doesn't translate to my experiences in game either.
For instance a Gemmed thief or a smuggler is super possible, maybe even better than the rogue classes. A Gemmed Raider can have multiple tools at their disposal to not give themselves away so they don't have to kill everyone they run into. Arm informant is probably the #1 job of long lived gemmed pc's of certain elements.
Quote from: i like me some ham on July 03, 2014, 07:58:54 AM
I don't know which of the above are problems of perceptions except the n/a.... I imagine gickers attempting that are going to have dinner with the Arm at some point.
Any raider is having dinner with the Templarate and its soldiers eventually, Gemmed aren't special in that case.
I believe that, although something I'd like to point out, if someone else hadn't told me anything, if I were a gemmed right now deciding what my new job would be, I'd probably be too scared for a few of these jobs. (Although maybe that's the way it should be?) I'd like what gemmed can and can't do to be more clear-cut, same going for elves, and to tune down what seems to be overly paranoid narrow job options. A gemmed playing the lute for his dinner shouldn't raise any eyebrows for example but he will, at some point. Also, how many people are going to request his services, knowing full well that he can't do anything to harm them without killing himself? If nothing else, our exceptional level of paranoia will hurt that.
I like the idea of an official unit of the Arm specifically for gemmed. They wouldn't get their own barracks, they would get either food or water and have to take care of the other one, just as a reminder that they aren't worth shit, and they would be able to train with each other, and learn battle strategies for magick that they are expected to use. Perhaps a particular pc corporal would be responsible for overseeing and handling these lessons and those gickers, if not all the leadership. It may be a better idea to give them both food and water for livability and increased subguild/lifestyle options, I just like the idea of, given the nature of that job, some constant reminder that they can and will be destroyed for misusing their newfound knowledge and power on the slightest misstep.
There was a time when almost every southern clan had or tried to have an in house viv...Vivs at least were treated like the docs say...least I think so. They were not loved...or even liked, but they were useful water machines and healers...it made sense to have one. From the viv player side, you at least got a clan cloak and ranked above rinthi now...even got some pay.
Other clans hired only certain types of mages (other then viv) This also made sense, and they had limits.
I'm imagining an awkward Vivaduan teen in the T'zai Byn running around giving burly mercenaries water.
(http://robsmovievault.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/the-waterboy.jpg?w=450&h=346)
This was also back when, unless you DID have some creepy water-monkey traipsing around, you had to find or buy your own water for your minions, all the time.
For some: Realistic, gritty, plot creating
For others: Seriously, why did my character have to die because I play off-peak and my leader didn't get me the water I was promised.
Caveat: What follow are generalizations and broad-sweeping sentiments. Before someone comes along to say, "Hey! That wasn't my experience!" please keep in mind there are always exceptions to every rule. If my sentiments don't reflect your experience, I'm happy for you. But I think we have enough experience over a long enough period of time to tell at this point what's the rule and what's an exception, at least regarding the topic at hand.
As is the case with a few other aspects of Armageddon, the gemmed as a concept started one way and have ended up another. And as is often the case, that's the result of staff reacting to the player-base taking things too far in one direction. And rightfully so, that's not only their job but it was a needed shift from a situation that had gotten entirely out of control.
The problem is that any extreme can be detrimental to the game. My feeling is that pushing the magickal element so far away from what's tolerated created a different, but equally dangerous situation. No longer able to interact with society on any practical level, gemmed have to a large extent become rogue mages in all but name. And rogue mages in turn increased in numbers, since one of the two main attractions of the gem (interaction, the second being safety) became largely moot. The problem is that most players enjoy, if not need, interaction. Many things can be said about CAM and the end-of-days period, but one thing they did bring about was players who enjoyed the magickal element of Armageddon were able to enjoy a fair level of interaction with other players (and not just their own kind).
Having forced mages of any shape and color into a purely isolationist role pushed many players to seek out alternative solutions, and thus we tend to see cabals of both gemmed and rogue mages form to fill that need. And often purely due to lack of options, such groups tend to have very particular goals that can at the very least be problematic for staff to handle. Such groups will continue to form by necessity however, since players are social creatures by nature and as long as magick is such an in-grained aspect of Zalanthas, someone will want to explore and enjoy that aspect of the game.
That said, I do think enough time has passed since the days of CAM and "X-Men", for a small shift back towards the original documentation and concept of gemmed (and mages in general). I don't think the gemmed need any special attention however, only to have some existing opportunities open to them again.
For example, I don't think special units within the AoD (as someone suggested) are the right approach. Gemmed already have the option to work closely with the AoD when it's required, through the Templars. In fact that's one of the only two viable options open to them, the other being Oash. And both of those options focus entirely on a character's ability to weave magick, often forcing them into two-dimensional roles. Not only that, but such "units" tend to push us back towards what we (as a game) have tried to move away from.
Ideas such as transaction tokens have merit in my eyes, because they acknowledge one fundamental issue: Mages are people and had lives, dreams, aspirations and professions before realizing the power they were blessed and cursed with. Players shouldn't be forced to only focus on a single aspect of their character, any more than they are with other guild/sub/race options available to them (dwarven foci being a notable but unrelated exception). A guild choice shouldn't define a character entirely, only support the options available to them. This is true now more than ever, with extended sub-guilds able to offer substantial coded support to backgrounds and life-choices outside a character's guild.
I don't think that tokens or writs are necessary though. While nifty as ideas, and alluring as anything new to the game is to players, they're not really needed for things to change. All that's needed is for gemmed mages to have a few more options open to them as far as the life they want to live, and a slightly more balanced view of them from the commoner masses. Being able to be hired by more than Oash, especially for work that might not be directly related to magick, would go a very long way to balance things.
A character with a lifetime of experience in a given trade should have the opportunity to make a living in that trade, gem or no gem. Artisans should have the opportunity to be hired by a GMH for their trade-work (if the GMH wished to hire them of course). Sellswords should be able to ply their trade in the Byn, if they have the coin for it and the Sarge approves, just as any other degenerate and social pariah can. And with limitations and strict regulation, some gemmed should be able to be employed for the magical talents as well.
This isn't to say that these options should be enforced or backed up by some sort of affirmative action. That's the very reason I don't feel special treatment is appropriate to the setting. The hiring of gemmed in any capacity should always be up to the PC leadership (and staff), just as it is with any character. But clans should at least have the option available to them, if it makes sense for them to do so for IC reasons.
In the same line of thought, gemmed should have the option to accept contract work for their services (be they mundane of magickal in nature), from any party crazy or desperate enough to desire it. A Krathi should have the option to be hired a group of hunters, just as they might the AoD, since "sun mages are employed for purposes of combat".1 Rukkians should have the option to be hired by grebbers or merchant caravans, since "stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys".2 And Vivaduans... In a water-starved world, they should be able to be employed by just about anyone that wants to hire them. After all, "water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more".3
No tokens, or quotas, or other special treatment is needed. All that's needed is for staff to lift certain limitations they've implemented in reaction to past abuse, and let players of gemmed mages participate in society as their documentation states they can.
Pigeonholing gemmed into exclusive clans or roles only pushes us back to CAM days. They're already pushed together physically into their ghetto, and limiting their interactions to other gemmed has few (and by now well-documented) possible outcomes. By letting them interact with the rest of society, at least as far as their work goes, you not only divide them as a group, but also let them be swayed by the conflict that exists in society and other clans. In this sense it's not only a good approach for OOC reasons, but for IC reasons as well.
Of course someone will inevitably come along and say, "What's stopping you from doing so. Be the change!" Sadly, this discussion wouldn't be taking place if that was even an option. It has been ingrained into the status quo that only Oash and Templars can have any transaction relations with gemmed, and that has been enforced by many players both in the past and present. Further, players in PC leadership positions who have tried to hire gemmed into their clans in the past have had staff come down on them faster than you can blink. Not because staff are mean, but because that's the policy currently in effect and it's their duty to enforce it.
And those are my personal thoughts on the subject.
1 Krathi Documentation (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Krathis)
2 Rukkian Documentation (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rukkians)
3 Vivaduan Documentation (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Vivaduans)
What Ouroboros said. Gemmed get heavy penalties tied to them. They can't extend their magick to such a helpful degree as a rogue could. (And often get locked in their temple if they're not savvy enough with their spells and how long they last and so on.) They are often first-time magickers, and such when confronted with a veteran rogue mage/mage-hunter players they also die rather quickly. I mean - the gem grants them the safety of the city, but it's a false safety. Since within the cities they have two viable options for survival and intrection and outside the city they're insta-targets for anti-allanaki or anti-mages since they're identified STRAIGHT away.
Perhaps remove the gem and have them tattooed on the hands (steal an idea from cool tuluk). Make it a crime for them to cover it up within the city. Or maybe just tattooed on their face for that matter. I know the gem itself plays a certain role, but the effects of it could be mitigated to something else somehow.
I mean. If your options is stay in Allanak and be bored or go outside the city and be killed by the first elf you see - you will always see a certain group of players drift away from it. Since they know they might have a more "fun" time playing a rogue.
I dunno, I would welcome a change for them. Any change.
A while back I played my first and only gemmed. I felt there was a mutually exclusive choice between playing an actual character who happens to be gemmed, and playing to the OOC fear of the templars killing you on a whim. Ultimately I can't really complain when choosing the former got that character killed; templars have absolute power and that's important to the game, etc. But I'd be lying if I were to say I were in a rush to play that role again.
How "while a back" was this? Did this start happening after you branched a few times i.e. became useful? Could you safely elaborate?
The few gemmed 'naki dwellers I've had haven't had this sort of issue, but I've never hit two game years played and I often like being a mundane for longer than two RL days. The chief problems I had with those roles was a lack of variability in jobs that were good enough to feed myself and the damned boredom I sometimes get when my pc's story isn't fanning the flames anymore. Lack of interaction sure, but I love Red Storm and can get used to that.
I suppose the reason House Oash has never interested me is that its classy. Gickers aren't classy people; and I usually want my grit. I know House Oash is politics and nobility grit but I mean subsistence and knowing you're a couple of kalans away from the people in that starving mob grit. When I'm not clanned by a high-class, million-sid clan that serves cherry-filled bread, I feel closer to the harsh survival. When I make a gicker, I want life for that gicker to be hard. There's no clan right now that would agree to provide that for my gemmed.
But yeah the merchant, noble houses, can retroactively open positions for perhaps one or two water witches each and we can just dip our toes in, see how it goes from there. Byn and Kurac would take clean record nonhuman vivs. The water would be deemed the same as normal water, as a well-known fact, and we can make sure no one's going to fucking kill everyone in the clan before we allow other gickers. Bet you sponsored roles would sure like a drovian on the payroll hmm hmm? And we could make a punishment for a clanned gicker doing something bad, I'm actually thinking about giving him to fellow gickers to tear apart and kill. They'd certainly want to; they want everyone watching to know they highly disapprove of the offender, and that they aren't like him. What mundane wants to risk killing a witch that knows there's no way out, even one who won't fight back? Remind gemmed that their existence is a responsibility to the Highlord.
Quote from: i like me some ham on July 06, 2014, 01:50:09 PM
Bet you sponsored roles would sure like a drovian on the payroll hmm hmm?
Yeah, they would. That's the problem. There's no siloing preventing magic-users from shitting all over mundanes' shticks, so all of these artificial constraints have been developed to ensure that Mundane #318 can do stuff and feel like he's got a shot at being halfway useful.
Balance magickers against mundanes better, and nobody will OOCly complain (as much) if there's a spooky gicker working as a spymaster for Lord Fancypants. That's the tightrope act: magic has to seem all magical without making it pointless to play a mundane. There should be certain tasks where a mundane is strictly better.
I have no idea how the new anti-magic defenses of city-states work, but it's probably a step in the right direction.
I found Ouroboros's post very well thought-out and have to admit I see his viewpoint, even if I lean toward mages being more isolated by nature. I hope it's taken into consideration if/when there are any staff-side discussions.
As for player complaints and "balance"... the one constant in Armageddon is that players will complain. no matter what.
Quote from: i like me some ham on July 06, 2014, 01:50:09 PM
How "while a back" was this? Did this start happening after you branched a few times i.e. became useful? Could you safely elaborate?
In this case I had spent not a small number of hours roleplaying the character before he manifested, and he had already developed a series of habits and personality that were not going to change simply because he became gemmed. He was not useful yet. He was low-status for reasons beyond being gemmed, making him even more expendable. But it would not have made sense to completely alter his play just because I was OOCly fearful of getting PK'd by a templar. Sitting in your little box spam casting until you are "useful" is part of the tidy little package it appears you're supposed to stick to if you're playing a long-lived gemmed that I am simply not interested in.
I never got that impression - maybe it depends on who's playing a Templar at the moment.
Which might need to be addressed?
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 06, 2014, 10:43:30 PM
Sitting in your little box spam casting until you are "useful" is part of the tidy little package it appears you're supposed to stick to if you're playing a long-lived gemmed that I am simply not interested in.
Can confirm. Tried to play a 'weak' gemmer (i.e someone only minimally touched by the element), was ordered to get stronger so I can kill baddies.
I think it depends on how you define "sitting around spam-casting." I've never felt it necessary to spam-cast for the same amount of time in one game-week I might have to spar, for example, if I were in the Byn, Militia, Legion, or any other clan that has mandatory sparring.
Or even in the same way, thankfully. Often, when I play gemmed, I "spam-cast" in pretty much the same way I do it when I'm a rogue. I have more freedom as a gemmed to pick and choose which spells I want to focus on - the sequence of learning. Outside the cities, I need to choose my priorities a little differently, plus I get actual targets to practice on if I feel it's worth the risk, whereas in temples, I don't have that option.
I find myself spam-casting around as often as I spam-craft if I'm a crafter by trade intending to actually get good at it (I've played merchants just for certain skills and not necessarily for crafting). Maybe for one game-hour during any given game-day. Or maybe I'll not use the coded skills for a couple of RL hours, and spend the last 1/2 hour before it's time to log out for the night in the temple spam-casting. Or I might log in early when no one's around to interact with, and spam-cast for 15-20 RL minutes, make the rounds of the city again, find nothing of interest, log out, and return later in my day to focus exclusively on RP and interaction.
The -only- time I've had problems interacting when I was playing a gemmed mage, was when I couldn't find anyone to interact with. Has nothing to do with the gem, has nothing to do with any IC prejudices. Has everything to do with "players logged in and congregated in the same general vicinity at random times of the day/evening."
If I'm logged in during early morning of a game-day, well I know I won't bump into any Bynners, Militia, or any other combat-oriented spar-scheduling clan, because they'll all be in their clan sparring yards.
If I check out the Gaj after late afternoon, I'm much more likely to run into people to interact with. I just don't consider that a problem at all. And I don't consider myself a spam-caster, as in, someone who sits in the temple all day/night spam-casting and rejecting interaction with the rest of the game world. I have no trouble mastering my entire spell list, and in fact I've discovered I tend to do it fairly efficiently, judging by IC comments other gemmed mages have made about their own progress.
So you can have both. You can have "casting sessions" AND you can interact with the game world, neither has to suffer for the other, the templars are happy to know you're trying, you're happy because you get to interact, and hopefully you make your own character interesting enough that other people are happy that you're interacting with them.
I would, for the record, really dig playing a gemmed character serving someone other than the military. Serving Oash is also serving the military. I really like the game's magical stuff (probably too much, staff might say), but I'm not very interested in combat.
Quote from: Zoan on July 07, 2014, 07:07:38 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 06, 2014, 10:43:30 PM
Sitting in your little box spam casting until you are "useful" is part of the tidy little package it appears you're supposed to stick to if you're playing a long-lived gemmed that I am simply not interested in.
Can confirm. Tried to play a 'weak' gemmer (i.e someone only minimally touched by the element), was ordered to get stronger so I can kill baddies.
It occurred to me that this isn't a problem specific to gemmers
Every rogue magicker I've played that's chummed around with other magickers was treated like a bit of an oddball for not being all branched out in a month
You're always gonna play a seemingly incompetent magicker when everybody's branched beyond your scope in a couple days played -- that's some unfortunate cheese right there.
New spells don't feel like achievements when fresh-faced Jim just fully branched his tree in three days played.
With the IC social pressure of being the most incompetent magicker around, and the OOC scorn for any who might dare spam cast, you've only the alcohol for comfort. Alcohol and maggggggick, bitches.
Quote from: Erythil on July 09, 2014, 05:14:56 AM
I would, for the record, really dig playing a gemmed character serving someone other than the military. Serving Oash is also serving the military. I really like the game's magical stuff (probably too much, staff might say), but I'm not very interested in combat.
How is serving Oash serving the military? I think all Gemmed have to serve the Templarate, which is associated with the military, no matter what. No one would be exempt from that, despite any organization they joined. And from what i've seen, the Templarate doesn't make a habit of scooping up all of Oash's Gemmed whenever they feel like it. Tends to put them in Oash's pockets, which higher-up Nobles (NPCs).
One of Allanak's key elements, to me, is its use of public punishment to instill fear.
It would be cool if the templars used the gemmed to perform public executions on a regular basis (i.e., preferentially). If there's a mage online, throw a hood on him/her to protect his/her identity, ring the bell, and toss him in the arena with the criminal.
A mage who is not an inborn killer would feel the full soul-crushing effect of effectively being owned by Allanak, and this way the gem is associated not just with "spellcaster", but doubles as a proverbial executioner's hood.
The big drawback is this might take away some of the mystery of how magick can kill (because everyone in Allanak can go and watch the show!). The other drawback is that the mage might get killed in the process, but in that case s/he wasn't worth much to begin with.
Quote from: CodeMaster on July 09, 2014, 01:28:10 PM
The other drawback is that the mage might get killed in the process, but in that case s/he wasn't worth much to begin with.
Which would probably only further the OOC pressure to skill-up spells that other people have complained about here.
Fair point, but that's IC pressure. A templar might forgo tossing you in the arena if you can come up with a bribe, too.
Edit: I should add that of course a templar doesn't want to kill mage after mage in the arena. That would look pathetic. So there's an incentive to make sure the mages are at least passable threats before tossing them in with Brak the magewrestler.
Quote from: Zoan on July 07, 2014, 07:07:38 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 06, 2014, 10:43:30 PM
Sitting in your little box spam casting until you are "useful" is part of the tidy little package it appears you're supposed to stick to if you're playing a long-lived gemmed that I am simply not interested in.
Can confirm. Tried to play a 'weak' gemmer (i.e someone only minimally touched by the element), was ordered to get stronger so I can kill baddies.
This goes back to even the Copper War. On one hand, my mage was being pressured to learn more magicks and on the other hand bitched at severely for "spam casting". If it hadn't been an inexperienced and underdeveloped Vivaduan, there would have been some dead bodies lying around, and they wouldn't haven been Tuluki.
Quote from: Reiloth on July 09, 2014, 12:37:00 PM
Quote from: Erythil on July 09, 2014, 05:14:56 AM
I would, for the record, really dig playing a gemmed character serving someone other than the military. Serving Oash is also serving the military. I really like the game's magical stuff (probably too much, staff might say), but I'm not very interested in combat.
How is serving Oash serving the military? I think all Gemmed have to serve the Templarate, which is associated with the military, no matter what. No one would be exempt from that, despite any organization they joined. And from what i've seen, the Templarate doesn't make a habit of scooping up all of Oash's Gemmed whenever they feel like it. Tends to put them in Oash's pockets, which higher-up Nobles (NPCs).
I suppose my perception may be colored by recent HRPT events.
Yeah, in general, I would say Oash's involvement with the military is scant. They are more geared towards R+D than warfare.
Quote from: Reiloth on July 09, 2014, 12:37:00 PM
Tends to put them in Oash's pockets, which higher-up Nobles (NPCs).
What?
As for people/clan leaders pressuring others to branch - yep, been there. Was awkward. And when you're a subjugated, indentured servant untouchable caste type with your phenomenal cosmic powers on a leash it's kind of weird to defy authority and not pRaCtIcE yOuR wEaVeS.
The issue with that is that it's always assumed your Gemmer is an auxiliary to the Arm of the Dragon despite that fact that there are probably a buttload of virtual Gemmed who want nothing to do with their magick.
Quote from: HavokBlue on July 10, 2014, 03:47:13 AM
The issue with that is that it's always assumed your Gemmer is an auxiliary to the Arm of the Dragon despite that fact that there are problems a buttload of virtual Gemmed who want nothing to do with their magick.
They should unionize.
Quote from: HavokBlue on July 10, 2014, 03:47:13 AM
The issue with that is that it's always assumed your Gemmer is an auxiliary to the Arm of the Dragon despite that fact that there are problems a buttload of virtual Gemmed who want nothing to do with their magick.
Pretty much everybody is eligible to be conscripted to help a templar. The only difference here is that templars usually need far less help from Amos the Salt Forager than they do from the people they keep around in order to exploit their creepy, unnatural powers.
CAM = gemmer labor union
Oash = GOP
There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.
If it ends up getting you killed, there kind of is.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 10, 2014, 10:51:10 AM
There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.
Way back in the day I briefly played a gemmed with no magickal powers whatsoever (he was a ranger). Do Templars make you prove that you have magickal powers before they hand you a gem these days? Could you just have some crazy guy who thought he was magickal?
Quote from: Narf on July 10, 2014, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 10, 2014, 10:51:10 AM
There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.
Way back in the day I briefly played a gemmed with no magickal powers whatsoever (he was a ranger). Do Templars make you prove that you have magickal powers before they hand you a gem these days? Could you just have some crazy guy who thought he was magickal?
... Cause you know, pickpockets are pretty much magickal.
"Witness as I summon small objects from the ether! Witness as I disappear from sight! Observe as I move through closed doors without a sound!"
Sounds like an abomination to me.
Quote from: Narf on July 10, 2014, 12:41:26 PM
Quote from: Narf on July 10, 2014, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 10, 2014, 10:51:10 AM
There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.
Way back in the day I briefly played a gemmed with no magickal powers whatsoever (he was a ranger). Do Templars make you prove that you have magickal powers before they hand you a gem these days? Could you just have some crazy guy who thought he was magickal?
... Cause you know, pickpockets are pretty much magickal.
"Witness as I summon small objects from the ether! Witness as I disappear from sight! Observe as I move through closed doors without a sound!"
Sounds like an abomination to me.
This is hilarious.
If you used your faux magic in the local tavern you should get crim flagged.
Quote from: Molten Heart on July 10, 2014, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: Narf on July 10, 2014, 12:41:26 PM
Quote from: Narf on July 10, 2014, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 10, 2014, 10:51:10 AM
There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.
Way back in the day I briefly played a gemmed with no magickal powers whatsoever (he was a ranger). Do Templars make you prove that you have magickal powers before they hand you a gem these days? Could you just have some crazy guy who thought he was magickal?
... Cause you know, pickpockets are pretty much magickal.
"Witness as I summon small objects from the ether! Witness as I disappear from sight! Observe as I move through closed doors without a sound!"
Sounds like an abomination to me.
This is hilarious.
If you used your faux magic in the local tavern you should get crim flagged.
Back almost an RL decade ago, one of my byn characters was watching a newbie perform "magic tricks" in the Bazaar in Nak. Slights of hand, etc. He reported the witch to the Templars.
I've never gotten pressure to branch, although once I was expected to have gotten a certain spell after one and a half days played by someone who was probably a secret breed with ultra wisdom, but I think that's because I usually prefer my gemmed to be vivs, and all people seem to want from them (in my experience) is water.
Quote from: Nyr on July 10, 2014, 09:06:31 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on July 10, 2014, 03:47:13 AM
The issue with that is that it's always assumed your Gemmer is an auxiliary to the Arm of the Dragon despite that fact that there are problems a buttload of virtual Gemmed who want nothing to do with their magick.
They should unionize.
I thought staff didn't want to see the CAM return. But if you do, hey, let us know! I imagine rally fliers will be passing around in no time... Then we get to have fun trying to locate where in the desert the body of Jimmy Krathi was buried using the new bury code!
Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 10, 2014, 10:29:44 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on July 10, 2014, 03:47:13 AM
The issue with that is that it's always assumed your Gemmer is an auxiliary to the Arm of the Dragon despite that fact that there are problems a buttload of virtual Gemmed who want nothing to do with their magick.
Pretty much everybody is eligible to be conscripted to help a templar. The only difference here is that templars usually need far less help from Amos the Salt Forager than they do from the people they keep around in order to exploit their creepy, unnatural powers.
That's one difference, sure, but hardly the only one. I think Havok's point wasn't really about whether the Gemmed should be eligible for conscription, but that it's the
only thing they're elegible for aside from Oash. And even Oash is an option generally limited to humans, so subhuman gemmed only have one option available to them.
Amos the Salt Forager can still get a job grebbing for a clan or a local merchant between whatever work a Templar might ask of him, while Malik the Gemmer is stuck wiggling his fingers (read: twiddling his thumbs) until his Templar comes up with the next suicide mission for him to embark on.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 10, 2014, 10:51:10 AM
There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.
There's no reason a Templar can't roleplay forcing you to get in touch with your element or die trying, either.
Kurac shows you can have a smoothly functioning all-in-one clan that is also enough of a monopoly not to have real competition. Thinking that one such clan in the gemmer quarter would provide a lot of benefits:
1. Acceptable sparring, for a better chance of staying alive on templar-issued death runs, or for people who did this before they were gemmed and want to specialize in it, whether they were guards, mercenaries, assassins, etc.
2. Give witches an actual chance to just stay in the gemmed quarter unless pulled out by the templarate or arm like the docs suggest
3. Gicks who craft for a living no longer have to depend on luck, reboots and mundane crafter population trends to sell their wares
4. Longer lifespans due to a don't-go-outside clan discouragement policy, leading to fewer stupid/job-related deaths
5. Magickal knowledge, tasks and items--- obviously, of marked lesser quality than Oash
6. Gickers can choose a subguild they don't have to live off of/utilize/utilize immediately (slipknife! slipknife! SLIPKNIFE!)
7. A pretty well-painted policy of the clan being the arm's/templarate official bitch with bare minimum ladder-climbing potential that exists merely to separate the recruit from the others--- both revealing the reality of witch life for newbies and avoiding problems that the council of mages ran into
8. Food and water only--- shit stuff, too. You don't like it, good luck on the flats.
9. Shit pay--- you don't like it, I heard Oash has a job open, and only ten other qualified nonabominations are applying. Also helps with the OOCly-driven belief that gickers are disproportionally rich compared to "healthy" persons, something I've always disliked.
10. More consolidation of the witch playerbase, mostly by making life markedly easier and more flexible inside the city.
11. Nonhuman and shaky-reputation witches can be officially employed
12. Byn-style drama plots based on socialization can now be pursued within the scope of a clan mentality-- how often does Oash let you keep badmouthing their most experienced witch, honestly?
13. Templars and soldiers don't have to search everywhere for needed witches--- its straight to the compound, where two or three are always logged in and know when five others will be around. Not such a perk on peak, but witches make good off-peak pcs.
I want to know your opinions on this one:
14. I'm assuming most gickers of the known would, if possible, have nothing to do with their unnaturalness, this might be a good chance to implement that as a thing: an Arm sargaent would, after enough cultural down-your-throat, take a look at a gicker, notice they have neither the House Oash cloak nor this one's uniform, and think, "Well they're probably fucking useless but maybe they'll know when Amos and Talia will be around."
The thing is...
As a Mage, you are already head and shoulders above the majority of the game in terms of coded power. Your role shouldn't (IMO) come with the same structures and opportunities as a mundane character. A Mage is one of the most interesting, powerful, and unusual things you can play in this game. I think that will naturally come with a lot of social drawbacks. I know people have different opinions about that. But I think part of the reason CAM got so bloated and let's face it, sort of snowflakey in its high magick nature was because it was basically playing a Mage without the marginalization and resource struggle and shame a gemmed Mage usually experiences. The socially marginalized Mage is the play experience I prefer anyway.
I think someone made this point at one time or another but I can't remember the who.
The last few points sound like they might all be addressed (not perfectly, but still..) by having something similar to the Circle of Magi from Dragon Age fame.
It's been tried, twice - CAM and Conclave. Shut down both times.
Quote from: LauraMars on July 11, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
The thing is...
As a Mage, you are already head and shoulders above the majority of the game in terms of coded power. Your role shouldn't (IMO) come with the same structures and opportunities as a mundane character. A Mage is one of the most interesting, powerful, and unusual things you can play in this game. I think that will naturally come with a lot of social drawbacks. I know people have different opinions about that. But I think part of the reason CAM got so bloated and let's face it, sort of snowflakey in its high magick nature was because it was basically playing a Mage without the marginalization and resource struggle and shame a gemmed Mage usually experiences. The socially marginalized Mage is the play experience I prefer anyway.
I won't argue the point of coded power, as it's a bit outside the scope of this discussion. Let's just say
every guild is as powerful as the player behind it. I would however point out we're not discussing mages in general, but gemmed mages in particular. A rogue mage has a lot of freedoms offered to them, and the social drawbacks that come with that role are indeed needed to balance their power and freedom. The question is whether the marginalization of the gemmed, to the extent it's currently enforced, makes or breaks the role for players. I would also emphasize that no one (that I've noticed at least) has said in this discussion that gemmed should no longer be second-class citizens or socially marginalized. It's the extent of that being discussed, not whether they continue to be such or not.
As I see it there's three different notions being expressed in this discussion so far...
1) The Gemmed are fine as they are, and the perceived or literal restrictions either enhance the class for those who enjoy isolationist roles or are needed to offset the class benefits.
2) The Gemmed feel too isolated and offer little incentive to play over a rogue mage. The solution to that is to group them into a single new clan (be that within the AoD or outside it).
3) The Gemmed feel too marginalized and are restricted as characters to being one-trick ponies for the Templars or Oash. The solution is to let them be able to seek employment opportunities from other
existing clans or individuals, while still remaining the second-class citizens and social pariahs they should be.
I think those in the first camp likely tend to enjoy isolationist roles to begin with, and thus feel more comfortable in the Gemmed class than others do. I'm not discounting the validity of their play-style, but if this was the case with all players we wouldn't be having this discussion (and clans would all be empty). I would also point out that at least if the third solution from the above is explored, they would still be free to play their Gemmed as isolated as they might want to. My own desire isn't to see the class
forced into social interactions in a single clan, but to broaden the options available to them. And the way each player can decide if they prefer to remain isolated or seek out more interaction.
Those in the second camp seem to understand there's a problem with the Gemmed class, but aren't agreed on exactly what it might be. In some cases these are players who never experienced the CAM days and don't know the problems that ensued, so on paper, the creation of a clanned structure for the Gemmed appeals to them. And in truth, the creation of something new is often the first solution proposed by players. I won't linger on whether or not that's a good idea, but I will say this... These players are very likely content in being limited to exploring magick as the sole aspect of their gemmed characters, and they already have valid options available to them. Those who want to focus on magick and its offensive abilities can comfortably do so under the direction of the Templars, and while that is their sole option it's still a valid one to their play-style. Those who don't care so much about combat but still have magickal exploration as their focus, and are human, have Oash available to them; a clan that's all about magick and its exploration (as far as gemmed in it are involved).
Personally I fall under the third camp. I feel that enough time has passed since the mistakes that led to the current restrictions, for slight adjustments to be made to policy to bring the Gemmed class closer to the documentation and their original vision. We're under a very different (and far more responsible) administration than we had in those days, who've learned from past mistakes and can successfully navigate through problems as they surface. And while I agree that the Gemmed class is too restricted by current policy, I think grouping them under any single new clan is begging for trouble from an IC and OOC stand-point.
From an IC view, the state should be looking to divide and conquer the Gemmed as much as possible. Since they've physically forced them into proximity in their ghetto, dividing them through varied interests and conflicts serves to keep any potential revolution or amassing of power at bay. Letting them get involved a bit more in society and other clans serves that purpose, while still remaining second-class citizens and at the beck and call of the state.
From an OOC view, a change of this sort would bring the Gemmed class closer to its documentation. It further offers a few more options for interaction to those players, as well as the option to enjoy a gemmed character who's sole focus in life doesn't revolve around magick. This would lead not only to a better experience for many players of Gemmed, but also potentially to less two-dimensional characters whom other players would enjoy interacting with.
Essentially what I and a few others are proposing, are the treatment of Gemmed to be a
bit less like slaves and lepers and a
bit more like northern Tribal Levies, the bit part emphasized for a reason. The proposed common link being that while both are essentially in service to their respective city-state, the Gemmed could at least have the option of employment like the Levies do, from parties who would be willing to hire them in the first place knowing their allegiance would always be to their city-state if called upon.
And once again for emphasis, this requires zero code work from staff. Regular reporting should already be happening by Gemmed and could be made official if it isn't already, but that's about all the change that might be required outside of a post announcing the policy change and any restrictions thereof. It could even begin in a limited fashion as a test, much like re-introducing slave roles has been, and expanded if staff feels things are being handled in an acceptable fashion. A restriction of a single gemmed at most in any given clan outside Oash for example could be what gets the ball rolling, or could even be a permanent restriction. Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.
I hope staff does open this discussion up amongst themselves and if so, take under consideration what's been shared here so far. It feels like it would be a step towards a healthier game and player experience, but until it's tried (in a regulated fashion this time) we can't know for sure.
One thing that might occupy gemmed (and also rogues) a little would be a plague of elemental parasites that only elementalists (and those with detect magick on) could perceive and fight against. As they accumulate in an area, elementalists' connection to their elements becomes weaker (they'd regenerate more slowly). They'd not move and only defend passively, and when destroyed might leave a residue which, like a body, would fade after a while, but could be consumed by an elementalist for an immediate mana burst or component crafted (with high difficulty) into a mana stone that, broken, would give a smaller mana burst.
So mundanes don't give a crap at all, they don't have to deal with gemmed any more than now, and gemmed have something to pull together on now and then (sweeping the city of parasites).
Quote from: Ouroboros on July 12, 2014, 04:01:43 PM
Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.
To my knowledge there's nothing official stopping gemmed from doing this today, besides social taboos. If whatever the mage is asked to do breaks a law or goes against the interests of the city in a Templar's opinion, they'd be punished and/or killed, but otherwise, gemmed are not literally barred from doing work for anyone besides a templar or someone named Oash. It's just that very few people, even in Allanak, want to be seen associating with a mage, let alone hiring them for things.
I like the posts.
Ouroboros, your posts are great. But they are based entirely on ignoring one of the main parts of this: The more accepted a gemmed or mage population is, the -less- necessary a mundane population is.
Look. We all know the magick code in Arm is pretty sweet. We all know the spells are pretty dang awesome. But that's what leads to more and more interest in playing them...making everything -more- accessible only allows that to happen, which, in my eyes, will only lead to a dilution of the mundane. This can be argued by saying that it allows more of the mundane to make use of the mage, but in either case it results in the same thing: More exposure to magick.
Magick is an evil presence in the game, by default. The reason this cycle comes up is because it is in a constant flux of becoming 'less evil' by perception: It gets used more because it's useful. Of COURSE it's useful, it's magick. But without that pre-existing notion of it being evil and something to not be associated with, it literally removes an entire foundation of the kind of play you engage in through Armageddon. It's absolutely game-changing, and my opinion is that it's not for the better. I can find magic-friendly rpg's everywhere. This is the one that keeps it gritty and real, with those occasional intrusions that are truly distressing. A mage has gone rogue. A mage has a vendetta. A mage has left their lot in life to try for more, and they can take it leaps and bounds faster than anyone else. The very mood of that changes when their employment from more groups becomes acceptable, because then other groups must hire their own to compete. Everyone ends up needing a mage friend. Again. Game changes, drastically.
I say this as someone who played a noble several years back who tried to keep mage involvement in small military plots to a minimum by withdrawing funding and support. The general response was 'Who cares, we have mages and will use them'. That's not a return to documentation, that's against the very basis of how the society was built. I say this as someone who has tried to enhance conflict on a small scale, only to have mages sent after me in a -very- short period of time. This doesn't enhance roleplay. It gives mages things to do, but zoom out and see a bigger picture, and this is far worse than any 'You killed my character and destroyed a plot'. At least there, plotlines are continuing, just not that one. This is taking an ooc desire to be able to play more magick, and appeasing it in a way that changes the very nature of conflict and problem solving in the game.
Keep magick evil. Keep it as something to be tightly controlled. Make it match the historical and documented need to minimize its visibility. Don't make a major sweeping change based on a general consensus of 'I really want to play it, but only if I get to play it my way.' It's not a role for 'my way' unless those consequences are accepted, as it needs to be to keep this very unique experience intact.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 12, 2014, 07:39:00 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on July 12, 2014, 04:01:43 PM
Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.
To my knowledge there's nothing official stopping gemmed from doing this today, besides social taboos. If whatever the mage is asked to do breaks a law or goes against the interests of the city in a Templar's opinion, they'd be punished and/or killed, but otherwise, gemmed are not literally barred from doing work for anyone besides a templar or someone named Oash. It's just that very few people, even in Allanak, want to be seen associating with a mage, let alone hiring them for things.
Yes. Social stigma needs to remain, is basically what I'm getting at. Lessening it for the sake of allowing more magery to thrive is...detrimental, in my mind's eye.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 12, 2014, 07:39:00 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on July 12, 2014, 04:01:43 PM
Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.
To my knowledge there's nothing official stopping gemmed from doing this today, besides social taboos. If whatever the mage is asked to do breaks a law or goes against the interests of the city in a Templar's opinion, they'd be punished and/or killed, but otherwise, gemmed are not literally barred from doing work for anyone besides a templar or someone named Oash. It's just that very few people, even in Allanak, want to be seen associating with a mage, let alone hiring them for things.
It's a murky issue at best, which if nothing else could be made clear to players. The fact clans have been restricted from hiring any gemmed in a coded fashion has over time led to the general belief that they gemmed can't be hired by anyone, on any basis, outside of a select few. It might not be written in stone (ie. documentation) but for all intent and purpose it might as well be. If you don't believe me, ask the players of any recent Templars what they think about it. Chances are you'll be told they're under the impression that only the Templars and Oash should be having any dealings with the gemmed, period. If you read over some of the comments in this discussion, you'll see that many share this belief as fact, even if it's a rumor.
Perhaps if this was clearly communicated to players, particularly those of Templars, more interactions would be forthcoming from both sides of things. It's a risk few are willing to take though, social stigma aside, when Templars are usually under the impression that the gemmed aren't just tools for them to use, but are tools
only for them to use.
If the gemmed working for others is a non-issue though, and we're still facing the issues discussed here, then perhaps taking one step further would help things. Such as the ability for clans to hire gemmed codedly, in a restricted and limited fashion. If nothing else, that would help enforce the idea that while gemmed are icky, you won't find yourself in the cuddler just because you had a big enough need to hire one.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 12, 2014, 07:50:46 PMLots of good stuff.
While I appreciate you feel I'm forgetting the awesome allure of mages, I feel you're forgetting the rarity of them. Karma isn't being tossed around like candy these days, and at the end of the day mundanes will -always- outnumber non-mundanes. Not just because of karma, but because while the mage classes are interesting, they're not everyone's cup of tea. Just how other guilds and races aren't everyone's cup of tea. I personally don't play elves, for example. They're great, they're interesting, their tribes are amazing. Kudos to those who play them as well. But they're not for me. Just because I might have the karma for something, doesn't mean I enjoy playing it as well.
That aside, I think you're letting your fears (and past experiences) run away with you a bit. No one's said magick shouldn't be feared or distrusted. Nor do I agree with you on the foundations of magick in Zalanthan culture being reflective of their state in the game today. If you read the documentation for the mage guilds, what you walk away with isn't today's reality. It never was in fact, until the end-of-world events passed and staff took a clear direction away from anything magickal. Which was, in my opinion, a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and too sweeping in effect, but warranted at the same time due to events of the time.
Mages, in southern culture,
are an integral part of its foundation. Whether you like it or agree with it, that's the vision Allanak was written with to start with. And several types of mages, Vivs first and foremost, were a solid part of that culture on an every-day basis. They were never trusted or liked, but they were viewed more like a necesarry evil and less like witches in Salem, Mass. Right now I feel we've gone too far in the later direction, barely a step away from burning the gemmed in public... Wait, didn't that already... anyway. My point is there's social stigma and fear of the unknown, and there's what we have today which borders pure hate.
Either way, what's being discussed isn't a shift towards something new (as you seem to feel it is). It's a shift
back, to the original vision of gemmed. Gemmed had a lot more freedom and a lot less stigma in the past than what's being asked for here, and only a fraction of that is being requested. But it's definitely not a sweeping change to something new and undocumented.
Want to experience a world without magick? One where it's pure evil, despised by everyone unilaterally and uprooted at every turn? That's cool, that's what the North is for. In the south though, the gemmed are kept alive and used, like it or not. The only point of debate in this discussion is who they're used by. But what you want, and what it sounds like your southern noble wanted, goes against southern culture.
What if Kurac didn't hire them and the Arm hired them, basically to walk a tightrope for food and water but not money?
Make it trickle down as you get further south.
Well, as usual, there's no consensus so nothing will be done.
I love playing gemmed. I'm going to play a gemmed next and it's going to be hawt. SO HAWT!
Quote from: path on July 13, 2014, 05:12:45 PM
I love played gemmed. I'm going to play a gemmed next and it's going to be hawt. SO HAWT!
It's a fire witch!!! RUN!
Quote from: path on July 13, 2014, 05:12:45 PM
I love played gemmed. I'm going to play a gemmed next and it's going to be hawt. SO HAWT!
Then I will do a cool one.
Yeah. Let's set this up for ourselves. See what we can put together. We should just get in there and make it really fun.
Quote from: Eyeball on July 13, 2014, 04:51:42 PM
Well, as usual, there's no consensus so nothing will be done.
Oh, did you think an actual change would come from this conversation?
:D
More to the point, since when has Arm needed consensus to change?
Quote from: Narf on July 10, 2014, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 10, 2014, 10:51:10 AM
There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.
Way back in the day I briefly played a gemmed with no magickal powers whatsoever (he was a ranger). Do Templars make you prove that you have magickal powers before they hand you a gem these days? Could you just have some crazy guy who thought he was magickal?
Years ago I played a PC that was this old delusional man who thought he was a krathi. Well, I rolled this guy up right before the AoD were going on a nasty little RPT. The Templar who gemmed me said, "Oh, you're a Krathi? You're coming with us!" Let's just say they did not think it was amusing when they realized he was just this old faded fart.
We entered a dark room and they looked towards me and was all, "Krathi, light up that room!"
I emoted holding my breath and causing my face to grow red as I howled and channeled the raw powers of Suk-Krath. That poor old dude did not make it back from that RPT. I'm sure they all claimed "friendly fire".
Quote from: Ouroboros on July 12, 2014, 08:45:52 PM
It's a murky issue at best, which if nothing else could be made clear to players. The fact clans have been restricted from hiring any gemmed in a coded fashion has over time led to the general belief that they gemmed can't be hired by anyone, on any basis, outside of a select few. It might not be written in stone (ie. documentation) but for all intent and purpose it might as well be. If you don't believe me, ask the players of any recent Templars what they think about it. Chances are you'll be told they're under the impression that only the Templars and Oash should be having any dealings with the gemmed, period. If you read over some of the comments in this discussion, you'll see that many share this belief as fact, even if it's a rumor.
Perhaps if this was clearly communicated to players, particularly those of Templars, more interactions would be forthcoming from both sides of things. It's a risk few are willing to take though, social stigma aside, when Templars are usually under the impression that the gemmed aren't just tools for them to use, but are tools only for them to use.
If the gemmed working for others is a non-issue though, and we're still facing the issues discussed here, then perhaps taking one step further would help things. Such as the ability for clans to hire gemmed codedly, in a restricted and limited fashion. If nothing else, that would help enforce the idea that while gemmed are icky, you won't find yourself in the cuddler just because you had a big enough need to hire one.
Being in a position to know fairly well, I hope, I would disagree with this being the perception. The players in these roles are always free to ask staff for clarification, of course. I won't say it's never happened, but being Cuddler'd simply for hiring a mage isn't a very common occurrence at all.
If a character is truly afraid that they might be punished by a Templar for trying to hire a mage for something, perhaps a bribe would be in order. A Templar who's in need of extra beer money could definitely shake down someone who's been making steady use of a gemmer's services and collect a "use of gemmed mages tax". But then a Templar could just as well shake down a character for a hundred other reasons not related to gemmed at all.
Anyway, there is no law in Allanak restricting who gemmed mages may work for (there are plenty of laws restricting how and where and to what ends they may use their powers, though). Oash has no special dispensation to hire mages, it's just that most other powerful organizations have absolutely no interest in doing so. On the individual level, in my mind it's pretty clear that Allanak does not try to stop anyone who isn't a templar from interacting with or employing a gemmer - take for example the fact that their quarter is open to the public despite that it could be easily gated off. There are plenty of NPC and vNPC beggars in the Vivaduan temple begging for healing, as another example - the templars didn't send those people there, nor did they give them permission to go, they were just sick and desperate enough to try and hire a healer on their own.
We could look at making this more definitive in documentation, but I still think you're underestimating the social stigma around interacting with a gemmed mage. As long as you aren't hiring a gemmer for something illegal, I would go so far as to say you should be
less concerned about what Templars might think of the arrangement than what society in general would think. By and large, no one "normal" in Allanak wants much to do with them. If you work with gemmed mages openly, your friends will want to stop being friends with you. You're cursed and deranged. You can also kiss your chances of employment with Borsail or Fale or most other noble houses goodbye. If you're working with a GMH, you better hope your customers don't hear about it, even in the south and doubly so up north. Associating with mages puts you on the fringe of society, and that's not where most people should want to be.
I appreciate your feedback on this so far, Rahnevyn. For one, it's comforting to hear you feel public perception isn't as skewed as I feared it is, regarding the legality of hiring gemmed. As staff you definitely have a bird's eye view of the landscape while we can only see what's in front of us.
Bribing a Templar is a good approach to everything, including just passing by them on the road. It's not a matter of not wanting to bribe one, as much as whether you're bribing them to look the other way on something normally not permitted, or just bribing them to keep them happy in general. Since there's no law restricting who the gemmed work for though, it sounds like it's the later instance.
Either way, making that a bit more defined in documentation could help, yes. I can fully accept that my view of the legality of hiring gemmed might be skewed, and it's good to be corrected, but at the same time that means I can't be the only one with that view. Point being, a bit more definition in documentation would likely help more than just myself, and particularly players that are new to the setting and hit with conflicting information.
This bit troubled me however, and I'm hoping you can expand on it:
Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 14, 2014, 02:01:15 PMOash has no special dispensation to hire mages, it's just that most other powerful organizations have absolutely no interest in doing so.
Is this valid from an OOC standpoint as well, or simply the IC justification offered for OOC restrictions in place? That is to say, are these powerful organizations (assuming to include Noble and GM Houses) able to hire mages as desired and generally tend not to because they have no interest in doing so for IC reasons at the PC level? Or is the lack of interest from the organization something passed down to the PC level from staff as the IC reasoning behind them not being permitted to hire gemmed, due to OOC policy?
Beyond that... I've found that the stigma of gemmed magick is very mercurial, which is why I haven't focused on it as much in this discussion. The clearest indication of that being how often the "cycle of hate" rises and falls among the player-base. It's also something that's changed over time, and in no small part, due to staff direction. I do have some questions for you, or any staff member, the answers to which might help shed some light on a topic that frequently troubles players.
1) Taking the Vivaduans as an example, per their public documentation, they can be worth incredible sums of money and more so as permanent members of large organizations or Houses. How would you as staff explain how once (and per documentation, still) most powerful organizations were eager to keep at least a Vivaduan on the payroll, and today would rather gnaw off their left arm than hire one?
2) Can you explain why the mage documentation often paints a picture of certain mages being hireable and to an extent even desirable for certain tasks, while in practice today and in your own words, anyone working with the gemmed is "cursed and deranged" and will lead to being socially ostracized by even your friends?
3) How did we go from a "widespread unease generally felt around any mage" in documentation to what you (accurately) described is the social stigma of gemmed interaction today? Do you feel it's simply the guidance of staff towards a new direction that led us here?
4) Do you feel there's room, or even a way, to take even a single step towards matching reality with the documentation and original vision for the gemmed? And if so, is that something staff has considered and/or be willing to do, or is it something you feel should happen from players? If staff policy is what brought us here, is that something players can even begin to have an effect on?
I look forward to your thoughts and appreciate your patience with us.
Quote from: Ouroboros on July 14, 2014, 05:33:55 PM
stuff
I think there was a shift in mindset somewhere along the way to the feeling that mages should generally be shunned by most clans to avoid it becoming a magical arms race between competing clans (ie. the Guild and the Jaxa or Salarr/Kadius/Kurac).
These are questions a more senior staff member could comment on if they feel inclined - I don't want to answer them definitively myself, as they start to veer towards game policy and vision, and that goes above my pay grade :) . I posted in order to help clarify what the reality in Allanak today is, that in general a gemmed mage should not feel like they are going to be executed if they do something (legal) for a non-templar/non-Oash, and someone crazy enough to hire a gemmed mage (for something that doesn't interfere with / affect the city at large) should not fear execution just for contracting them.
What I will say is that some of the Noble Houses in Allanak have a well known, very public dislike of magickers, gemmed or otherwise, and those attitudes are backed by and stem from IC events that have happened over their histories. In general magick is the purview of the templarate; the nobility have no want or need of it in their personal lives. They are very content to let the templarate handle the dirty business of controlling the gemmed, and would prefer to keep the mages at arms' length and pretend they didn't exist or have anything to do with the day to day running of the city. Water and protection come from the Highlord and his templars. What the templars do with the mages is something most nobility would prefer not to think about.
The documentation does a good job of describing some of the abilities of mages and how they might be useful - what it doesn't delve into as much are the drawbacks (social, political, codedly or otherwise) that come with associating yourself with one. In other words, no, I wouldn't see the current state of affairs as an OOC policy that prevents clans beside Oash from hiring mages, I would view it as those clans having no IC reasons to hire gemmed mages openly that would outweigh the cost in doing so.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 14, 2014, 06:12:37 PMThese are questions a more senior staff member could comment on if they feel inclined - I don't want to answer them definitively myself, as they start to veer towards game policy and vision, and that goes above my pay grade :)
Understood. I hope one such administrator is willing to shed some light in the spirit of clarity, if not towards open discourse. No pressure of course, we're all busy people. :)
Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 14, 2014, 06:12:37 PMIn other words, no, I wouldn't see the current state of affairs as an OOC policy that prevents clans beside Oash from hiring mages, I would view it as those clans having no IC reasons to hire gemmed mages openly that would outweigh the cost in doing so.
I think I understand what you're saying, but here's what's troubling me. The IC costs outweighing the benefits come into effect directly due to OOC policy. So how is it an IC decision and not an OOC policy?
Clans once were permitted to hire gemmed and did so. A change happened at some point, and it came from an OOC decision staff made for xyz reasons. As a result, the public image of gemmed was altered to dissuade any and all associations with them. That was a change in policy, so to speak, which has led us today to clans being effectively unable to hire gemmed. I trust you realize there's no practical difference between "You're not permitted to because it's an OOC policy we implemented." and "Your Seniors state you're not permitted to because of IC repercussions, due to the OOC policy we implemented."
The lines are a bit blurred from my perspective, which is why I hoped you could shed light. :)
I've just done some catching up in this thread so this may be a little belated, but.... I feel like "templars" these types of discussions are often painted as a cohesive group, but that's a mischaracterization. They're actually they're as variable as characters as any other group of people. So I tend to think saying templars do X or templars should do X is simply too broad. Some templars might be all for letting you hire gemmed (whether bribed or not), and others might not.
I'd also point out that, to a templar, hiring a mage for a brief and limited task might be one thing, and trying to/looking like you're trying to buy its loyalty might be quite another.
Quote from: Rahnevyn
In general magick is the purview of the templarate; the nobility have no want or need of it in their personal lives. They are very content to let the templarate handle the dirty business of controlling the gemmed, and would prefer to keep the mages at arms' length and pretend they didn't exist or have anything to do with the day to day running of the city. Water and protection come from the Highlord and his templars.
Quote
In the amphitheater below, the pot-bellied, black-robed templar says:
"I would like to remind the members of this esteemed body that the comforts and public services provided to all of the citizens by the City Ministry, as with all things, have a cost."
In the amphitheater below, the pot-bellied, black-robed templar says:
"The City Ministry takes full advantage of the abilities of elementalists, whenever possible, to minimize costs."
In the amphitheater below, the pot-bellied, black-robed templar says:
"To cast aside these elementalist resources would require the City Ministry to procure suitable replacements."
In the amphitheater below, the pot-bellied, black-robed templar says:
"Replacements which would come at a significantly higher cost."
In the amphitheater below, the pot-bellied, black-robed templar says:
"Clearly, the City Ministry budget would require additional funds to keep his Highlord's city maintained at the same levels he has decreed for it."
In the amphitheater below, the pot-bellied, black-robed templar says:
"I would be remiss in my fiduciary duty to his Highlord if I didn't introduce a measure to reallocate funds to the City Ministry budget from House stipends.
I'd expect nobles to be quite aware of how much they and the city owe to the gemmed, nevertheless, even if the general populace is not.
Precisely why I used the words 'prefer' and 'pretend', Eyeball. I actually had that very log in mind when I wrote that.
(edit: so as not to derail, if anyone would like to discuss that particular scene in more depth, let me plug the discussion thread: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47505.0.html)
Quote from: valeria on July 14, 2014, 07:40:30 PM
I've just done some catching up in this thread so this may be a little belated, but.... I feel like "templars" these types of discussions are often painted as a cohesive group, but that's a mischaracterization. They're actually they're as variable as characters as any other group of people. So I tend to think saying templars do X or templars should do X is simply too broad. Some templars might be all for letting you hire gemmed (whether bribed or not), and others might not.
I'd also point out that, to a templar, hiring a mage for a brief and limited task might be one thing, and trying to/looking like you're trying to buy its loyalty might be quite another.
The part of templars in the discussion was broad intentionally, at least on my end, because I was looking to have the letter of the law clarified. I agree not every Templar is cut from the same cloth, just like every gemmed isn't, and every character in general isn't. However, from the moment the hiring of gemmed by third parties isn't outlawed and is "only" social taboo, what a Templar chooses or chooses not to do is strictly them acting on their own. No different then a Templar deciding to fine you for wearing green on a given day. You can't argue it either way (in most cases), but at least both you and the Templar are aware that he or she is flexing muscle as opposed to upholding the law. And since no one would actually be breaking the law, I would hope a Templar would simply be out for a bribe and not for blood.
As far as loyalty is concerned though, I don't think that's come into question in the discussion. Anyone looking to hire gemmed should fully realize their first loyalty is to the city-state they serve, it's as plain as the gem around their neck. That doesn't even seem like something a Templar would need to question actually, unless we're talking about personal loyalty. Like a Templar being pissy over a gemmed being more loyal to another Templar over them. That's a different matter though, and outside the scope of the discussion.
I love being gemmers and mages. They're all-round fun for me and I play them more than I play anything else, because I enjoy what they bring to MY Armageddon experience (just like lots of people love playing mundanes).
I do not so much enjoy sitting in a designated alone-place all the time because I have a gem, and thus everyone shudders when they see me and ignore me from there on. I mean, I DO like it, but at the same time I don't. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I love being a social pariah, but don't like the literal boredom that comes from it.