Gemmed magickers, society, and YOU!

[i like me some ham]

Kurac shows you can have a smoothly functioning all-in-one clan that is also enough of a monopoly not to have real competition. Thinking that one such clan in the gemmer quarter would provide a lot of benefits:

1. Acceptable sparring, for a better chance of staying alive on templar-issued death runs, or for people who did this before they were gemmed and want to specialize in it, whether they were guards, mercenaries, assassins, etc.
2. Give witches an actual chance to just stay in the gemmed quarter unless pulled out by the templarate or arm like the docs suggest
3. Gicks who craft for a living no longer have to depend on luck, reboots and mundane crafter population trends to sell their wares
4. Longer lifespans due to a don't-go-outside clan discouragement policy, leading to fewer stupid/job-related deaths
5. Magickal knowledge, tasks and items--- obviously, of marked lesser quality than Oash
6. Gickers can choose a subguild they don't have to live off of/utilize/utilize immediately (slipknife! slipknife! SLIPKNIFE!)
7. A pretty well-painted policy of the clan being the arm's/templarate official bitch with bare minimum ladder-climbing potential that exists merely to separate the recruit from the others--- both revealing the reality of witch life for newbies and avoiding problems that the council of mages ran into
8. Food and water only--- shit stuff, too. You don't like it, good luck on the flats.
9. Shit pay--- you don't like it, I heard Oash has a job open, and only ten other qualified nonabominations are applying. Also helps with the OOCly-driven belief that gickers are disproportionally rich compared to "healthy" persons, something I've always disliked.
10. More consolidation of the witch playerbase, mostly by making life markedly easier and more flexible inside the city.
11. Nonhuman and shaky-reputation witches can be officially employed
12. Byn-style drama plots based on socialization can now be pursued within the scope of a clan mentality-- how often does Oash let you keep badmouthing their most experienced witch, honestly?
13. Templars and soldiers don't have to search everywhere for needed witches--- its straight to the compound, where two or three are always logged in and know when five others will be around. Not such a perk on peak, but witches make good off-peak pcs.

I want to know your opinions on this one:

14. I'm assuming most gickers of the known would, if possible, have nothing to do with their unnaturalness, this might be a good chance to implement that as a thing: an Arm sargaent would, after enough cultural down-your-throat, take a look at a gicker, notice they have neither the House Oash cloak nor this one's uniform, and think, "Well they're probably fucking useless but maybe they'll know when Amos and Talia will be around."

[LauraMars]

The thing is...

As a Mage, you are already head and shoulders above the majority of the game in terms of coded power. Your role shouldn't (IMO) come with the same structures and opportunities as a mundane character.  A Mage is one of the most interesting, powerful, and unusual things you can play in this game. I think  that will naturally come with a lot of social drawbacks. I know people have different opinions about that. But I think part of the reason CAM got so bloated and let's face it, sort of snowflakey in its high magick nature was because it was basically playing a Mage without the marginalization and resource struggle and shame a gemmed Mage usually experiences. The socially marginalized Mage is the play experience I prefer anyway.

[Pale Horse]

I think someone made this point at one time or another but I can't remember the who.

The last few points sound like they might all be addressed (not perfectly, but still..) by having something similar to the Circle of Magi from Dragon Age fame.

[manonfire]

It's been tried, twice - CAM and Conclave. Shut down both times.

[Ouroboros]

The thing is...

As a Mage, you are already head and shoulders above the majority of the game in terms of coded power. Your role shouldn't (IMO) come with the same structures and opportunities as a mundane character.  A Mage is one of the most interesting, powerful, and unusual things you can play in this game. I think  that will naturally come with a lot of social drawbacks. I know people have different opinions about that. But I think part of the reason CAM got so bloated and let's face it, sort of snowflakey in its high magick nature was because it was basically playing a Mage without the marginalization and resource struggle and shame a gemmed Mage usually experiences. The socially marginalized Mage is the play experience I prefer anyway.

I won't argue the point of coded power, as it's a bit outside the scope of this discussion. Let's just say every guild is as powerful as the player behind it. I would however point out we're not discussing mages in general, but gemmed mages in particular. A rogue mage has a lot of freedoms offered to them, and the social drawbacks that come with that role are indeed needed to balance their power and freedom. The question is whether the marginalization of the gemmed, to the extent it's currently enforced, makes or breaks the role for players. I would also emphasize that no one (that I've noticed at least) has said in this discussion that gemmed should no longer be second-class citizens or socially marginalized. It's the extent of that being discussed, not whether they continue to be such or not.

As I see it there's three different notions being expressed in this discussion so far...

1) The Gemmed are fine as they are, and the perceived or literal restrictions either enhance the class for those who enjoy isolationist roles or are needed to offset the class benefits.

2) The Gemmed feel too isolated and offer little incentive to play over a rogue mage. The solution to that is to group them into a single new clan (be that within the AoD or outside it).

3) The Gemmed feel too marginalized and are restricted as characters to being one-trick ponies for the Templars or Oash. The solution is to let them be able to seek employment opportunities from other existing clans or individuals, while still remaining the second-class citizens and social pariahs they should be.

I think those in the first camp likely tend to enjoy isolationist roles to begin with, and thus feel more comfortable in the Gemmed class than others do. I'm not discounting the validity of their play-style, but if this was the case with all players we wouldn't be having this discussion (and clans would all be empty). I would also point out that at least if the third solution from the above is explored, they would still be free to play their Gemmed as isolated as they might want to. My own desire isn't to see the class forced into social interactions in a single clan, but to broaden the options available to them. And the way each player can decide if they prefer to remain isolated or seek out more interaction.

Those in the second camp seem to understand there's a problem with the Gemmed class, but aren't agreed on exactly what it might be. In some cases these are players who never experienced the CAM days and don't know the problems that ensued, so on paper, the creation of a clanned structure for the Gemmed appeals to them. And in truth, the creation of something new is often the first solution proposed by players. I won't linger on whether or not that's a good idea, but I will say this... These players are very likely content in being limited to exploring magick as the sole aspect of their gemmed characters, and they already have valid options available to them. Those who want to focus on magick and its offensive abilities can comfortably do so under the direction of the Templars, and while that is their sole option it's still a valid one to their play-style. Those who don't care so much about combat but still have magickal exploration as their focus, and are human, have Oash available to them; a clan that's all about magick and its exploration (as far as gemmed in it are involved).

Personally I fall under the third camp. I feel that enough time has passed since the mistakes that led to the current restrictions, for slight adjustments to be made to policy to bring the Gemmed class closer to the documentation and their original vision. We're under a very different (and far more responsible) administration than we had in those days, who've learned from past mistakes and can successfully navigate through problems as they surface. And while I agree that the Gemmed class is too restricted by current policy, I think grouping them under any single new clan is begging for trouble from an IC and OOC stand-point.

From an IC view, the state should be looking to divide and conquer the Gemmed as much as possible. Since they've physically forced them into proximity in their ghetto, dividing them through varied interests and conflicts serves to keep any potential revolution or amassing of power at bay. Letting them get involved a bit more in society and other clans serves that purpose, while still remaining second-class citizens and at the beck and call of the state.

From an OOC view, a change of this sort would bring the Gemmed class closer to its documentation. It further offers a few more options for interaction to those players, as well as the option to enjoy a gemmed character who's sole focus in life doesn't revolve around magick. This would lead not only to a better experience for many players of Gemmed, but also potentially to less two-dimensional characters whom other players would enjoy interacting with.

Essentially what I and a few others are proposing, are the treatment of Gemmed to be a bit less like slaves and lepers and a bit more like northern Tribal Levies, the bit part emphasized for a reason. The proposed common link being that while both are essentially in service to their respective city-state, the Gemmed could at least have the option of employment like the Levies do, from parties who would be willing to hire them in the first place knowing their allegiance would always be to their city-state if called upon.

And once again for emphasis, this requires zero code work from staff. Regular reporting should already be happening by Gemmed and could be made official if it isn't already, but that's about all the change that might be required outside of a post announcing the policy change and any restrictions thereof. It could even begin in a limited fashion as a test, much like re-introducing slave roles has been, and expanded if staff feels things are being handled in an acceptable fashion. A restriction of a single gemmed at most in any given clan outside Oash for example could be what gets the ball rolling, or could even be a permanent restriction. Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.

I hope staff does open this discussion up amongst themselves and if so, take under consideration what's been shared here so far. It feels like it would be a step towards a healthier game and player experience, but until it's tried (in a regulated fashion this time) we can't know for sure.

[Eyeball]

One thing that might occupy gemmed (and also rogues) a little would be a plague of elemental parasites that only elementalists (and those with detect magick on) could perceive and fight against. As they accumulate in an area, elementalists' connection to their elements becomes weaker (they'd regenerate more slowly). They'd not move and only defend passively, and when destroyed might leave a residue which, like a body, would fade after a while, but could be consumed by an elementalist for an immediate mana burst or component crafted (with high difficulty) into a mana stone that, broken, would give a smaller mana burst.

So mundanes don't give a crap at all, they don't have to deal with gemmed any more than now, and gemmed have something to pull together on now and then (sweeping the city of parasites).

[Rahnevyn]

Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.

To my knowledge there's nothing official stopping gemmed from doing this today, besides social taboos. If whatever the mage is asked to do breaks a law or goes against the interests of the city in a Templar's opinion, they'd be punished and/or killed, but otherwise, gemmed are not literally barred from doing work for anyone besides a templar or someone named Oash. It's just that very few people, even in Allanak, want to be seen associating with a mage, let alone hiring them for things.

[Armaddict]

I like the posts.

Ouroboros, your posts are great.  But they are based entirely on ignoring one of the main parts of this:  The more accepted a gemmed or mage population is, the -less- necessary a mundane population is.

Look.  We all know the magick code in Arm is pretty sweet.  We all know the spells are pretty dang awesome. But that's what leads to more and more interest in playing them...making everything -more- accessible only allows that to happen, which, in my eyes, will only lead to a dilution of the mundane.  This can be argued by saying that it allows more of the mundane to make use of the mage, but in either case it results in the same thing:  More exposure to magick.

Magick is an evil presence in the game, by default.  The reason this cycle comes up is because it is in a constant flux of becoming 'less evil' by perception:  It gets used more because it's useful.  Of COURSE it's useful, it's magick.  But without that pre-existing notion of it being evil and something to not be associated with, it literally removes an entire foundation of the kind of play you engage in through Armageddon.  It's absolutely game-changing, and my opinion is that it's not for the better.  I can find magic-friendly rpg's everywhere.  This is the one that keeps it gritty and real, with those occasional intrusions that are truly distressing.  A mage has gone rogue.  A mage has a vendetta.  A mage has left their lot in life to try for more, and they can take it leaps and bounds faster than anyone else.  The very mood of that changes when their employment from more groups becomes acceptable, because then other groups must hire their own to compete.  Everyone ends up needing a mage friend.  Again.  Game changes, drastically.

I say this as someone who played a noble several years back who tried to keep mage involvement in small military plots to a minimum by withdrawing funding and support.  The general response was 'Who cares, we have mages and will use them'.  That's not a return to documentation, that's against the very basis of how the society was built.  I say this as someone who has tried to enhance conflict on a small scale, only to have mages sent after me in a -very- short period of time.  This doesn't enhance roleplay.  It gives mages things to do, but zoom out and see a bigger picture, and this is far worse than any 'You killed my character and destroyed a plot'.  At least there, plotlines are continuing, just not that one.  This is taking an ooc desire to be able to play more magick, and appeasing it in a way that changes the very nature of conflict and problem solving in the game.

Keep magick evil.  Keep it as something to be tightly controlled.  Make it match the historical and documented need to minimize its visibility.  Don't make a major sweeping change based on a general consensus of 'I really want to play it, but only if I get to play it my way.'  It's not a role for 'my way' unless those consequences are accepted, as it needs to be to keep this very unique experience intact.

[Armaddict]

Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.

To my knowledge there's nothing official stopping gemmed from doing this today, besides social taboos. If whatever the mage is asked to do breaks a law or goes against the interests of the city in a Templar's opinion, they'd be punished and/or killed, but otherwise, gemmed are not literally barred from doing work for anyone besides a templar or someone named Oash. It's just that very few people, even in Allanak, want to be seen associating with a mage, let alone hiring them for things.

Yes.  Social stigma needs to remain, is basically what I'm getting at.  Lessening it for the sake of allowing more magery to thrive is...detrimental, in my mind's eye.

[Ouroboros]

Or clan participation could be denied to start with, but gemmed could simply be officially permitted to take on contract work from clans and individuals. Without Templars hunting them down to kill them for it, I mean.

To my knowledge there's nothing official stopping gemmed from doing this today, besides social taboos. If whatever the mage is asked to do breaks a law or goes against the interests of the city in a Templar's opinion, they'd be punished and/or killed, but otherwise, gemmed are not literally barred from doing work for anyone besides a templar or someone named Oash. It's just that very few people, even in Allanak, want to be seen associating with a mage, let alone hiring them for things.

It's a murky issue at best, which if nothing else could be made clear to players. The fact clans have been restricted from hiring any gemmed in a coded fashion has over time led to the general belief that they gemmed can't be hired by anyone, on any basis, outside of a select few. It might not be written in stone (ie. documentation) but for all intent and purpose it might as well be. If you don't believe me, ask the players of any recent Templars what they think about it. Chances are you'll be told they're under the impression that only the Templars and Oash should be having any dealings with the gemmed, period. If you read over some of the comments in this discussion, you'll see that many share this belief as fact, even if it's a rumor.

Perhaps if this was clearly communicated to players, particularly those of Templars, more interactions would be forthcoming from both sides of things. It's a risk few are willing to take though, social stigma aside, when Templars are usually under the impression that the gemmed aren't just tools for them to use, but are tools only for them to use.

If the gemmed working for others is a non-issue though, and we're still facing the issues discussed here, then perhaps taking one step further would help things. Such as the ability for clans to hire gemmed codedly, in a restricted and limited fashion. If nothing else, that would help enforce the idea that while gemmed are icky, you won't find yourself in the cuddler just because you had a big enough need to hire one.

[Ouroboros]

Lots of good stuff.

While I appreciate you feel I'm forgetting the awesome allure of mages, I feel you're forgetting the rarity of them. Karma isn't being tossed around like candy these days, and at the end of the day mundanes will -always- outnumber non-mundanes. Not just because of karma, but because while the mage classes are interesting, they're not everyone's cup of tea. Just how other guilds and races aren't everyone's cup of tea. I personally don't play elves, for example. They're great, they're interesting, their tribes are amazing. Kudos to those who play them as well. But they're not for me. Just because I might have the karma for something, doesn't mean I enjoy playing it as well.

That aside, I think you're letting your fears (and past experiences) run away with you a bit. No one's said magick shouldn't be feared or distrusted. Nor do I agree with you on the foundations of magick in Zalanthan culture being reflective of their state in the game today. If you read the documentation for the mage guilds, what you walk away with isn't today's reality. It never was in fact, until the end-of-world events passed and staff took a clear direction away from anything magickal. Which was, in my opinion, a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and too sweeping in effect, but warranted at the same time due to events of the time.

Mages, in southern culture, are an integral part of its foundation. Whether you like it or agree with it, that's the vision Allanak was written with to start with. And several types of mages, Vivs first and foremost, were a solid part of that culture on an every-day basis. They were never trusted or liked, but they were viewed more like a necesarry evil and less like witches in Salem, Mass. Right now I feel we've gone too far in the later direction, barely a step away from burning the gemmed in public... Wait, didn't that already... anyway. My point is there's social stigma and fear of the unknown, and there's what we have today which borders pure hate.

Either way, what's being discussed isn't a shift towards something new (as you seem to feel it is). It's a shift back, to the original vision of gemmed. Gemmed had a lot more freedom and a lot less stigma in the past than what's being asked for here, and only a fraction of that is being requested. But it's definitely not a sweeping change to something new and undocumented.

Want to experience a world without magick? One where it's pure evil, despised by everyone unilaterally and uprooted at every turn? That's cool, that's what the North is for. In the south though, the gemmed are kept alive and used, like it or not. The only point of debate in this discussion is who they're used by. But what you want, and what it sounds like your southern noble wanted, goes against southern culture.

[a french mans shirt]

What if Kurac didn't hire them and the Arm hired them, basically to walk a tightrope for food and water but not money?

Make it trickle down as you get further south.

[Eyeball]

Well, as usual, there's no consensus so nothing will be done.

[path]

I love playing gemmed. I'm going to play a gemmed next and it's going to be hawt. SO HAWT!

[FantasyWriter]

I love played gemmed. I'm going to play a gemmed next and it's going to be hawt. SO HAWT!

It's a fire witch!!! RUN!

[Barsook]

I love played gemmed. I'm going to play a gemmed next and it's going to be hawt. SO HAWT!

Then I will do a cool one.

[path]

Yeah. Let's set this up for ourselves. See what we can put together. We should just get in there and make it really fun.

[manonfire]

Well, as usual, there's no consensus so nothing will be done.

Oh, did you think an actual change would come from this conversation?

[Patuk]

More to the point, since when has Arm needed consensus to change?

[mattrious]

There's no reason you can't roleplay being unable to get in touch with your elements.

Way back in the day I briefly played a gemmed with no magickal powers whatsoever (he was a ranger). Do Templars make you prove that you have magickal powers before they hand you a gem these days? Could you just have some crazy guy who thought he was magickal?

Years ago I played a PC that was this old delusional man who thought he was a krathi. Well, I rolled this guy up right before the AoD were going on a nasty little RPT. The Templar who gemmed me said, "Oh, you're a Krathi? You're coming with us!" Let's just say they did not think it was amusing when they realized he was just this old faded fart.

We entered a dark room and they looked towards me and was all, "Krathi, light up that room!"

I emoted holding my breath and causing my face to grow red as I howled and channeled the raw powers of Suk-Krath. That poor old dude did not make it back from that RPT. I'm sure they all claimed "friendly fire".

[Rahnevyn]

It's a murky issue at best, which if nothing else could be made clear to players. The fact clans have been restricted from hiring any gemmed in a coded fashion has over time led to the general belief that they gemmed can't be hired by anyone, on any basis, outside of a select few. It might not be written in stone (ie. documentation) but for all intent and purpose it might as well be. If you don't believe me, ask the players of any recent Templars what they think about it. Chances are you'll be told they're under the impression that only the Templars and Oash should be having any dealings with the gemmed, period. If you read over some of the comments in this discussion, you'll see that many share this belief as fact, even if it's a rumor.

Perhaps if this was clearly communicated to players, particularly those of Templars, more interactions would be forthcoming from both sides of things. It's a risk few are willing to take though, social stigma aside, when Templars are usually under the impression that the gemmed aren't just tools for them to use, but are tools only for them to use.

If the gemmed working for others is a non-issue though, and we're still facing the issues discussed here, then perhaps taking one step further would help things. Such as the ability for clans to hire gemmed codedly, in a restricted and limited fashion. If nothing else, that would help enforce the idea that while gemmed are icky, you won't find yourself in the cuddler just because you had a big enough need to hire one.

Being in a position to know fairly well, I hope, I would disagree with this being the perception. The players in these roles are always free to ask staff for clarification, of course. I won't say it's never happened, but being Cuddler'd simply for hiring a mage isn't a very common occurrence at all.

If a character is truly afraid that they might be punished by a Templar for trying to hire a mage for something, perhaps a bribe would be in order. A Templar who's in need of extra beer money could definitely shake down someone who's been making steady use of a gemmer's services and collect a "use of gemmed mages tax". But then a Templar could just as well shake down a character for a hundred other reasons not related to gemmed at all.

Anyway, there is no law in Allanak restricting who gemmed mages may work for (there are plenty of laws restricting how and where and to what ends they may use their powers, though). Oash has no special dispensation to hire mages, it's just that most other powerful organizations have absolutely no interest in doing so. On the individual level, in my mind it's pretty clear that Allanak does not try to stop anyone who isn't a templar from interacting with or employing a gemmer - take for example the fact that their quarter is open to the public despite that it could be easily gated off. There are plenty of NPC and vNPC beggars in the Vivaduan temple begging for healing, as another example - the templars didn't send those people there, nor did they give them permission to go, they were just sick and desperate enough to try and hire a healer on their own.

We could look at making this more definitive in documentation, but I still think you're underestimating the social stigma around interacting with a gemmed mage. As long as you aren't hiring a gemmer for something illegal, I would go so far as to say you should be less concerned about what Templars might think of the arrangement than what society in general would think. By and large, no one "normal" in Allanak wants much to do with them. If you work with gemmed mages openly, your friends will want to stop being friends with you. You're cursed and deranged. You can also kiss your chances of employment with Borsail or Fale or most other noble houses goodbye. If you're working with a GMH, you better hope your customers don't hear about it, even in the south and doubly so up north. Associating with mages puts you on the fringe of society, and that's not where most people should want to be.

[Ouroboros]

I appreciate your feedback on this so far, Rahnevyn. For one, it's comforting to hear you feel public perception isn't as skewed as I feared it is, regarding the legality of hiring gemmed. As staff you definitely have a bird's eye view of the landscape while we can only see what's in front of us.

Bribing a Templar is a good approach to everything, including just passing by them on the road. It's not a matter of not wanting to bribe one, as much as whether you're bribing them to look the other way on something normally not permitted, or just bribing them to keep them happy in general. Since there's no law restricting who the gemmed work for though, it sounds like it's the later instance.

Either way, making that a bit more defined in documentation could help, yes. I can fully accept that my view of the legality of hiring gemmed might be skewed, and it's good to be corrected, but at the same time that means I can't be the only one with that view. Point being, a bit more definition in documentation would likely help more than just myself, and particularly players that are new to the setting and hit with conflicting information.

This bit troubled me however, and I'm hoping you can expand on it:

Oash has no special dispensation to hire mages, it's just that most other powerful organizations have absolutely no interest in doing so.

Is this valid from an OOC standpoint as well, or simply the IC justification offered for OOC restrictions in place? That is to say, are these powerful organizations (assuming to include Noble and GM Houses) able to hire mages as desired and generally tend not to because they have no interest in doing so for IC reasons at the PC level? Or is the lack of interest from the organization something passed down to the PC level from staff as the IC reasoning behind them not being permitted to hire gemmed, due to OOC policy?

Beyond that... I've found that the stigma of gemmed magick is very mercurial, which is why I haven't focused on it as much in this discussion. The clearest indication of that being how often the "cycle of hate" rises and falls among the player-base. It's also something that's changed over time, and in no small part, due to staff direction. I do have some questions for you, or any staff member, the answers to which might help shed some light on a topic that frequently troubles players.

1) Taking the Vivaduans as an example, per their public documentation, they can be worth incredible sums of money and more so as permanent members of large organizations or Houses. How would you as staff explain how once (and per documentation, still) most powerful organizations were eager to keep at least a Vivaduan on the payroll, and today would rather gnaw off their left arm than hire one?

2) Can you explain why the mage documentation often paints a picture of certain mages being hireable and to an extent even desirable for certain tasks, while in practice today and in your own words, anyone working with the gemmed is "cursed and deranged" and will lead to being socially ostracized by even your friends?

3) How did we go from a "widespread unease generally felt around any mage" in documentation to what you (accurately) described is the social stigma of gemmed interaction today? Do you feel it's simply the guidance of staff towards a new direction that led us here?

4) Do you feel there's room, or even a way, to take even a single step towards matching reality with the documentation and original vision for the gemmed? And if so, is that something staff has considered and/or be willing to do, or is it something you feel should happen from players? If staff policy is what brought us here, is that something players can even begin to have an effect on?

I look forward to your thoughts and appreciate your patience with us.

[HavokBlue]

stuff

I think there was a shift in mindset somewhere along the way to the feeling that mages should generally be shunned by most clans to avoid it becoming a magical arms race between competing clans (ie. the Guild and the Jaxa or Salarr/Kadius/Kurac).

[Rahnevyn]

These are questions a more senior staff member could comment on if they feel inclined - I don't want to answer them definitively myself, as they start to veer towards game policy and vision, and that goes above my pay grade . I  posted in order to help clarify what the reality in Allanak today is, that in general a gemmed mage should not feel like they are going to be executed if they do something (legal) for a non-templar/non-Oash, and someone crazy enough to hire a gemmed mage (for something that doesn't interfere with / affect the city at large) should not fear execution just for contracting them.

What I will say is that some of the Noble Houses in Allanak have a well known, very public dislike of magickers, gemmed or otherwise, and those attitudes are backed by and stem from IC events that have happened over their histories. In general magick is the purview of the templarate; the nobility have no want or need of it in their personal lives. They are very content to let the templarate handle the dirty business of controlling the gemmed, and would prefer to keep the mages at arms' length and pretend they didn't exist or have anything to do with the day to day running of the city. Water and protection come from the Highlord and his templars. What the templars do with the mages is something most nobility would prefer not to think about.

The documentation does a good job of describing some of the abilities of mages and how they might be useful - what it doesn't delve into as much are the drawbacks (social, political, codedly or otherwise) that come with associating yourself with one. In other words, no, I wouldn't see the current state of affairs as an OOC policy that prevents clans beside Oash from hiring mages, I would view it as those clans having no IC reasons to hire gemmed mages openly that would outweigh the cost in doing so.

[Ouroboros]

These are questions a more senior staff member could comment on if they feel inclined - I don't want to answer them definitively myself, as they start to veer towards game policy and vision, and that goes above my pay grade

Understood. I hope one such administrator is willing to shed some light in the spirit of clarity, if not towards open discourse. No pressure of course, we're all busy people.

In other words, no, I wouldn't see the current state of affairs as an OOC policy that prevents clans beside Oash from hiring mages, I would view it as those clans having no IC reasons to hire gemmed mages openly that would outweigh the cost in doing so.

I think I understand what you're saying, but here's what's troubling me. The IC costs outweighing the benefits come into effect directly due to OOC policy. So how is it an IC decision and not an OOC policy?

Clans once were permitted to hire gemmed and did so. A change happened at some point, and it came from an OOC decision staff made for xyz reasons. As a result, the public image of gemmed was altered to dissuade any and all associations with them. That was a change in policy, so to speak, which has led us today to clans being effectively unable to hire gemmed. I trust you realize there's no practical difference between "You're not permitted to because it's an OOC policy we implemented." and "Your Seniors state you're not permitted to because of IC repercussions, due to the OOC policy we implemented."

The lines are a bit blurred from my perspective, which is why I hoped you could shed light.