Gemmed magickers, society, and YOU!

[TheWanderer]

On the other hand, anyone who would *openly* insult a mage, in public, should expect their dick to fall off some time in the near future. should expect their vagina to fall off some time in the near future. It goes both ways

I've seen just about enough of that beef bologna, people. Men aren't the only ones stupid enough to insult magickers.

You're damn right it goes both ways.

[Patuk]

You see, what I think the Gemmed could really benefit from is something of a constant enemy.

There's a lot of people mentioning the gemmed seal team phenomenon here, and that's something I dislike, too. You could blame the people behind the templars for this in part, but I think this happening is largely due to there being little else for Gemmed to do.

One option is for people playing Gemmed not to comply so well. 'Yes Lord Templar, I'm sure they're dead, nobody could have survived a fireball that big.' 'I dropped him down a hundred cords, Lord Templar, noooooothing to worry about.' 'What do you mean, taunting you right now? I electrocuted him to death!'  Barring that, gemmed can hide or go rogue. The problem with situations slike these is that it's a surefire way to get killed by your templar for not being a good little precision nuke, which I am on the fence about.

A second way to remove the prevalence of the gemmed seal team acting as the solution to anything is for them to have an enemy who poses an actual challenge to them. Chances are that one elf who ran off with the sergeant's favorite necklace won't get unavoidably killed by a bored whiran if said whiran is needed to ensure the rogue sorceror won't wipe out every patrol undertaken byHis Arm. I assume here that it is more fun for people to have an actual chalkenge when playing magickers, anyway.

Whereas I do prefer the second solution, the problem is that it's really, really hard to actually pose suxh a threat. As an example, the only thing that keeps the PC Allanaki templarate from wiping out all Sun Legion PC's ever is restraint. Whatever power Muk Utep might grant to his forces is far more cast into the realm of vNPCness than Allanak's magicks are, and so the north really isn't anything of a comparable enemy. When the very archebemy of your city-state has no way of fighting back, you know things are skewed.

I'd say the only real challenge the gemmed can and sometimes do get is a group of rogue magickers. Whereas that's cool and can make for fun plots, it's also not sustainable. If the big bad sorceror/nilazi/whatever happens to die, or enough of his minions kick it, the gemmed are gonna have nothing to do again. Brilliant.

In the end I think that for the Gemmed to have fun and not be the end of every mundane who dares cross a guy somewhere in Allanak, you'll need something to measure up to them. Whether you'll want to do that by adding some antimagick to the game, increase the power present in some clans, or create a more stable, villainous presence is something I have no influence over.

[Is Friday]

Gemmed have had opponents powerful enough to warrant their full resources before. The problem is that the structure of the MUD doesn't allow indie groups to compete for long because when you reach that point you either get stored or the full city turns its resources against you. If you want gemmed culture to change you need to restructure a lot of the game.

[palomar]

You see, what I think the Gemmed could really benefit from is something of a constant enemy.

There's a lot of people mentioning the gemmed seal team phenomenon here, and that's something I dislike, too. You could blame the people behind the templars for this in part, but I think this happening is largely due to there being little else for Gemmed to do.

One option is for people playing Gemmed not to comply so well. 'Yes Lord Templar, I'm sure they're dead, nobody could have survived a fireball that big.' 'I dropped him down a hundred cords, Lord Templar, noooooothing to worry about.' 'What do you mean, taunting you right now? I electrocuted him to death!'  Barring that, gemmed can hide or go rogue. The problem with situations slike these is that it's a surefire way to get killed by your templar for not being a good little precision nuke, which I am on the fence about.

I agree with the general idea, having a more constant enemy for the gemmed, but I'm not sure what it would actually be. Perhaps environmental

Lying to your commanding templar is most likely a sure way to get killed, and being sloppy while in their presence is probably also a bad idea (if they expect you to be good at what you do). Not focusing 100% on some tasks seems a more reasonable approach: "That guy? Oh I never found him." "The oblong jasper stone you told me to collect 1412 pieces of? Never found any/only found 5." And yes, they can hide or go rogue to some extent. Trying to get that little gem off your neck never seems to get old.

A second way to remove the prevalence of the gemmed seal team acting as the solution to anything is for them to have an enemy who poses an actual challenge to them. Chances are that one elf who ran off with the sergeant's favorite necklace won't get unavoidably killed by a bored whiran if said whiran is needed to ensure the rogue sorceror won't wipe out every patrol undertaken byHis Arm. I assume here that it is more fun for people to have an actual chalkenge when playing magickers, anyway.

Replace whiran with "a group of gemmed", and they'd be more likely to actually make a difference if they're protecting something/someone against an enemy like a sorcerer. In my most personal experience, leaders and minions have been less interested in going after dangerous enemies (ie, sorcerers) than you'd think they'd be.

Whereas I do prefer the second solution, the problem is that it's really, really hard to actually pose suxh a threat. As an example, the only thing that keeps the PC Allanaki templarate from wiping out all Sun Legion PC's ever is restraint. Whatever power Muk Utep might grant to his forces is far more cast into the realm of vNPCness than Allanak's magicks are, and so the north really isn't anything of a comparable enemy. When the very archebemy of your city-state has no way of fighting back, you know things are skewed.

Sorcerers who survive a while are usually good at posing that kind of threat. Sometimes to the extent that the gemmed actually don't face up to the challenge and have to play it safe.

I think your example is wrong, simple as that. Both Templarates have powers granted by their Kings. The armies (soldiers) don't. Allanak has gemmed elementalists, which adds a certain advantage but it's far from game breaking. It is however true that both Templarates have vast virtual powers that are rarely directly represented in the game world (a bit more now with the city-state protection changes). In my ~10 years, I have not seen that kind of "wiping out" happen or being close to happening and I strongly doubt it's due to restraint only - the war has been both hot and cold and hot again during that time. Not even in the Copper War did the Allanaki templars or gemmed wipe out the Sun Legion PCs. I know Nak took significant losses among PC templars, soldiers and gemmed during that extended event. That's "no way of fighting back" for you right there.

I'd say the only real challenge the gemmed can and sometimes do get is a group of rogue magickers. Whereas that's cool and can make for fun plots, it's also not sustainable. If the big bad sorceror/nilazi/whatever happens to die, or enough of his minions kick it, the gemmed are gonna have nothing to do again. Brilliant.

In the end I think that for the Gemmed to have fun and not be the end of every mundane who dares cross a guy somewhere in Allanak, you'll need something to measure up to them. Whether you'll want to do that by adding some antimagick to the game, increase the power present in some clans, or create a more stable, villainous presence is something I have no influence over.

There are lots of challenges for the gemmed, but not all are based on the fact that the gemmed are gemmed, but rather on being people/individuals/characters first and foremost. Of course, some things become challenges because they are gemmed. If you play a gemmed (or any magicker guild) primarily for the magick-related challenges whatever they may be, you'll most likely be disappointed. That's not saying their role in Allanak's society shouldn't or couldn't be adjusted or modified though.

[Dresan]

The best part of the copper wars was being able to see allanaki magicks vs tuluki ingenuity. The copper wars really showed off those aspects of the cities. In one part of the copper wars, I remember a group of rukians were being used to sand shield the approaching nakki army, since tuluki soldiers were throwing set up boulders from the top of the cliffs.


This made me fall in love with tuluk for the longest time. The idea that tuluk would use their heads against allanaki who had decided to use magicks to solve their problems. In the face of a seemingly powerful abilities, I would have loved to see tuluk progress more in a way that allowed its mundanes to deal with magick. Better weapons, better poisons, better methods of fighting that were really tuluk only stuff. The way the game currently is doesn't really support much of this though, especially with any ingenuity being centered around GMHs basically. To balance that out however allanaki mundanes need very good reasons to hire or deal with gemmers and making gemmers more or less isolated outside major events.

[Twilight]

It just seems what was an intentionally vague gray area gets hit with repeated attempts to set clear boundaries on "it should be this" or "it should be that".  Everyone seems to want to treat gemmed the "right" way, so you get trends IG of consistency of behavior.  The gray area has been narrowed over time by staff, but I would conjecture that there is still enough that it could be said consistency isn't necessarily a goal.

CAM was interesting, but flawed.  If you extend more clan options for gemmed, it should be with the intent of creating conflict between the gemmed.  This could be through having them affiliated with organizations that might be in conflict (Oash, Tor, etc), or creating gemmed only organizations that are naturally in conflict with each other.  More GMH conflict than Tuluk vs Allanak conflict, as open magickal warfare is going to get squashed, but stuff that keeps gemmers using things other than their magick is good.

[charas]

What was the question? Uh, I like me a gemmer, it isn't an easy role to be sure, but I don't see anything wrong with it per se. I believe however that much of the discussion here on the GDB about gemmers and magickers in general is detrimental to the role as a whole. I'd hazard it makes people self-conscious/annoyed to play a gemmer/magicker from the get go. As well as those finding themselves in the situation of having to interact with one 'properly'.

More over, nothing is set in stone. The whole experience very much depends on the dynamics between the interacting characters. I played enough gemmed over the years to have experienced the whole spectrum, whether it involved templars, militia, nobles, commoners, even Tulukies - it was fun.

As to the seal team analogy, I guess it happens, but I personally never experienced it, there's always at least one 'liability' dude in the mix who puts everyone in jeopardy, and if there isn't, be that guy. Magickers are weird fuckers.

[valeria]

When I was a southern templar, I felt like my gemmed were constantly dying/getting killed off.  Maybe I just wasn't a good templar. 

[Molten Heart]

When I was a southern templar, I felt like my gemmed were constantly dying/getting killed off.  Maybe I just wasn't a good templar. 

Stop pitting them against each other in order to find out which one is the more worthy servant.

[i like me some ham]

There's one thing I've always believed was a problem of perception with both gemmed and elves, they don't get near the range of independent jobs that everyone else has the freedom to have.

Profession                                Gemmed                                                                                Elven

Whore                                      n/a                                                  Low or nonexistent elf pc numbers, unless you're a breed-lover
Bard                                   Lucky to break even                                                                       Alright  
Thief                            Hands, feet and head cut off                                                            Perfect/expected
Mugger                         Never leave them alive/storykiller                                       Low strength/game month just to train
Smuggler                    Dead if caught/give all to templar                                       What are you doing outside the gates?
Crafter-trader               No one wants your witch filth                                                                  Alright
Merchant                      No one wants to trade with you                                           One guy wants to trade with you
Arm informant       Eternal chance of killing you if you hear something good             Chance of beatings or becoming a soldier's bitch
Raider                       Never leave them alive/storykiller                                           Train for a game year before considering
Independent mercenary            n/a                                                                        Train for a game year before considering
Grebber                             Almost expected                                                           What are you doing outside the gates?

Long time ago I stored an elf and I don't remember why, but I remember staff replying that "There's nothing in the documentation that says elves can't greb."

I don't know which of the above are problems of perceptions except the n/a.... I imagine gickers attempting that are going to have dinner with the Arm at some point.

What I mean is a change in perception might benefit these groups, low elf strength and nasty witch in the room not withstanding.

I'm behind the gicker merchant token idea.

[James de Monet]

Your chart does not translate to mobile. It's all jumbled.

[RogueGunslinger]

Your chart doesn't translate to my experiences in game either.

For instance a Gemmed thief or a smuggler is super possible, maybe even better than the rogue classes. A Gemmed Raider can have multiple tools at their disposal to not give themselves away so they don't have to kill everyone they run into. Arm informant is probably the #1 job of long lived gemmed pc's of certain elements.

I don't know which of the above are problems of perceptions except the n/a.... I imagine gickers attempting that are going to have dinner with the Arm at some point.

Any raider is having dinner with the Templarate and its soldiers eventually, Gemmed aren't special in that case.

[Erythil]

Given how absurdly powerful and prevalent magic is in this setting, I've personally always found it somewhat baffling that more organizations don't keep a few spellcasters on the payroll.

I think people take the hating-them thing too far.  Treat them as second-class citizens, sure.  Never trust them, sure.  But the notion that you wouldn't want a friend who can melt people with the power of his mind or summon oases in the middle of the desert -- knowing that many of your enemies have such friends -- is tough for me to swallow.

I'd like to see a return to what the docs seem to suggest, where certain types of elementalists, particularly Vivaduans, are less hated than others.

[i like me some ham]

Your chart doesn't translate to my experiences in game either.

For instance a Gemmed thief or a smuggler is super possible, maybe even better than the rogue classes. A Gemmed Raider can have multiple tools at their disposal to not give themselves away so they don't have to kill everyone they run into. Arm informant is probably the #1 job of long lived gemmed pc's of certain elements.

I don't know which of the above are problems of perceptions except the n/a.... I imagine gickers attempting that are going to have dinner with the Arm at some point.

Any raider is having dinner with the Templarate and its soldiers eventually, Gemmed aren't special in that case.

I believe that, although something I'd like to point out, if someone else hadn't told me anything, if I were a gemmed right now deciding what my new job would be, I'd probably be too scared for a few of these jobs. (Although maybe that's the way it should be?) I'd like what gemmed can and can't do to be more clear-cut, same going for elves, and to tune down what seems to be overly paranoid narrow job options. A gemmed playing the lute for his dinner shouldn't raise any eyebrows for example but he will, at some point. Also, how many people are going to request his services, knowing full well that he can't do anything to harm them without killing himself? If nothing else, our exceptional level of paranoia will hurt that.

I like the idea of an official unit of the Arm specifically for gemmed. They wouldn't get their own barracks, they would get either food or water and have to take care of the other one, just as a reminder that they aren't worth shit, and they would be able to train with each other, and learn battle strategies for magick that they are expected to use. Perhaps a particular pc corporal would be responsible for overseeing and handling these lessons and those gickers, if not all the leadership. It may be a better idea to give them both food and water for livability and increased subguild/lifestyle options, I just like the idea of, given the nature of that job, some constant reminder that they can and will be destroyed for misusing their newfound knowledge and power on the slightest misstep.

[X-D]

There was a time when almost every southern clan had or tried to have an in house viv...Vivs at least were treated like the docs say...least I think so. They were not loved...or even liked, but they were useful water machines and healers...it made sense to have one. From the viv player side, you at least got a clan cloak and ranked above rinthi now...even got some pay.

Other clans hired only certain types of mages (other then viv) This also made sense, and they had limits.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm imagining an awkward Vivaduan teen in the T'zai Byn running around giving burly mercenaries water.

[Riev]

This was also back when, unless you DID have some creepy water-monkey traipsing around, you had to find or buy your own water for your minions, all the time.

For some: Realistic, gritty, plot creating
For others: Seriously, why did my character have to die because I play off-peak and my leader didn't get me the water I was promised.

[Ouroboros]

Caveat: What follow are generalizations and broad-sweeping sentiments. Before someone comes along to say, "Hey! That wasn't my experience!" please keep in mind there are always exceptions to every rule. If my sentiments don't reflect your experience, I'm happy for you. But I think we have enough experience over a long enough period of time to tell at this point what's the rule and what's an exception, at least regarding the topic at hand.


As is the case with a few other aspects of Armageddon, the gemmed as a concept started one way and have ended up another. And as is often the case, that's the result of staff reacting to the player-base taking things too far in one direction. And rightfully so, that's not only their job but it was a needed shift from a situation that had gotten entirely out of control.

The problem is that any extreme can be detrimental to the game. My feeling is that pushing the magickal element so far away from what's tolerated created a different, but equally dangerous situation. No longer able to interact with society on any practical level, gemmed have to a large extent become rogue mages in all but name. And rogue mages in turn increased in numbers, since one of the two main attractions of the gem (interaction, the second being safety) became largely moot. The problem is that most players enjoy, if not need, interaction. Many things can be said about CAM and the end-of-days period, but one thing they did bring about was players who enjoyed the magickal element of Armageddon were able to enjoy a fair level of interaction with other players (and not just their own kind).

Having forced mages of any shape and color into a purely isolationist role pushed many players to seek out alternative solutions, and thus we tend to see cabals of both gemmed and rogue mages form to fill that need. And often purely due to lack of options, such groups tend to have very particular goals that can at the very least be problematic for staff to handle. Such groups will continue to form by necessity however, since players are social creatures by nature and as long as magick is such an in-grained aspect of Zalanthas, someone will want to explore and enjoy that aspect of the game.

That said, I do think enough time has passed since the days of CAM and "X-Men", for a small shift back towards the original documentation and concept of gemmed (and mages in general). I don't think the gemmed need any special attention however, only to have some existing opportunities open to them again.

For example, I don't think special units within the AoD (as someone suggested) are the right approach. Gemmed already have the option to work closely with the AoD when it's required, through the Templars. In fact that's one of the only two viable options open to them, the other being Oash. And both of those options focus entirely on a character's ability to weave magick, often forcing them into two-dimensional roles. Not only that, but such "units" tend to push us back towards what we (as a game) have tried to move away from.

Ideas such as transaction tokens have merit in my eyes, because they acknowledge one fundamental issue: Mages are people and had lives, dreams, aspirations and professions before realizing the power they were blessed and cursed with. Players shouldn't be forced to only focus on a single aspect of their character, any more than they are with other guild/sub/race options available to them (dwarven foci being a notable but unrelated exception). A guild choice shouldn't define a character entirely, only support the options available to them. This is true now more than ever, with extended sub-guilds able to offer substantial coded support to backgrounds and life-choices outside a character's guild.

I don't think that tokens or writs are necessary though. While nifty as ideas, and alluring as anything new to the game is to players, they're not really needed for things to change. All that's needed is for gemmed mages to have a few more options open to them as far as the life they want to live, and a slightly more balanced view of them from the commoner masses. Being able to be hired by more than Oash, especially for work that might not be directly related to magick, would go a very long way to balance things.

A character with a lifetime of experience in a given trade should have the opportunity to make a living in that trade, gem or no gem. Artisans should have the opportunity to be hired by a GMH for their trade-work (if the GMH wished to hire them of course). Sellswords should be able to ply their trade in the Byn, if they have the coin for it and the Sarge approves, just as any other degenerate and social pariah can. And with limitations and strict regulation, some gemmed should be able to be employed for the magical talents as well.

This isn't to say that these options should be enforced or backed up by some sort of affirmative action. That's the very reason I don't feel special treatment is appropriate to the setting. The hiring of gemmed in any capacity should always be up to the PC leadership (and staff), just as it is with any character. But clans should at least have the option available to them, if it makes sense for them to do so for IC reasons.

In the same line of thought, gemmed should have the option to accept contract work for their services (be they mundane of magickal in nature), from any party crazy or desperate enough to desire it. A Krathi should have the option to be hired a group of hunters, just as they might the AoD, since "sun mages are employed for purposes of combat".¹ Rukkians should have the option to be hired by grebbers or merchant caravans, since "stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys".² And Vivaduans... In a water-starved world, they should be able to be employed by just about anyone that wants to hire them. After all, "water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more".³

No tokens, or quotas, or other special treatment is needed. All that's needed is for staff to lift certain limitations they've implemented in reaction to past abuse, and let players of gemmed mages participate in society as their documentation states they can.

Pigeonholing gemmed into exclusive clans or roles only pushes us back to CAM days. They're already pushed together physically into their ghetto, and limiting their interactions to other gemmed has few (and by now well-documented) possible outcomes. By letting them interact with the rest of society, at least as far as their work goes, you not only divide them as a group, but also let them be swayed by the conflict that exists in society and other clans. In this sense it's not only a good approach for OOC reasons, but for IC reasons as well.

Of course someone will inevitably come along and say, "What's stopping you from doing so. Be the change!" Sadly, this discussion wouldn't be taking place if that was even an option. It has been ingrained into the status quo that only Oash and Templars can have any transaction relations with gemmed, and that has been enforced by many players both in the past and present. Further, players in PC leadership positions who have tried to hire gemmed into their clans in the past have had staff come down on them faster than you can blink. Not because staff are mean, but because that's the policy currently in effect and it's their duty to enforce it.

And those are my personal thoughts on the subject.


¹ Krathi Documentation
² Rukkian Documentation
³ Vivaduan Documentation

[Voular]

What Ouroboros said. Gemmed get heavy penalties tied to them. They can't extend their magick to such a helpful degree as a rogue could. (And often get locked in their temple if they're not savvy enough with their spells and how long they last and so on.) They are often first-time magickers, and such when confronted with a veteran rogue mage/mage-hunter players they also die rather quickly. I mean - the gem grants them the safety of the city, but it's a false safety. Since within the cities they have two viable options for survival and intrection and outside the city they're insta-targets for anti-allanaki or anti-mages since they're identified STRAIGHT away.

Perhaps remove the gem and have them tattooed on the hands (steal an idea from cool tuluk). Make it a crime for them to cover it up within the city. Or maybe just tattooed on their face for that matter. I know the gem itself plays a certain role, but the effects of it could be mitigated to something else somehow.

I mean. If your options is stay in Allanak and be bored or go outside the city and be killed by the first elf you see - you will always see a certain group of players drift away from it. Since they know they might have a more "fun" time playing a rogue.

I dunno, I would welcome a change for them. Any change.

[hyzhenhok]

A while back I played my first and only gemmed. I felt there was a mutually exclusive choice between playing an actual character who happens to be gemmed, and playing to the OOC fear of the templars killing you on a whim. Ultimately I can't really complain when choosing the former got that character killed; templars have absolute power and that's important to the game, etc. But I'd be lying if I were to say I were in a rush to play that role again.

[i like me some ham]

How "while a back" was this? Did this start happening after you branched a few times i.e. became useful? Could you safely elaborate?

The few gemmed 'naki dwellers I've had haven't had this sort of issue, but I've never hit two game years played and I often like being a mundane for longer than two RL days. The chief problems I had with those roles was a lack of variability in jobs that were good enough to feed myself and the damned boredom I sometimes get when my pc's story isn't fanning the flames anymore. Lack of interaction sure, but I love Red Storm and can get used to that.

I suppose the reason House Oash has never interested me is that its classy. Gickers aren't classy people; and I usually want my grit. I know House Oash is politics and nobility grit but I mean subsistence and knowing you're a couple of kalans away from the people in that starving mob grit. When I'm not clanned by a high-class, million-sid clan that serves cherry-filled bread, I feel closer to the harsh survival. When I make a gicker, I want life for that gicker to be hard. There's no clan right now that would agree to provide that for my gemmed.

But yeah the merchant, noble houses, can retroactively open positions for perhaps one or two water witches each and we can just dip our toes in, see how it goes from there. Byn and Kurac would take clean record nonhuman vivs. The water would be deemed the same as normal water, as a well-known fact, and we can make sure no one's going to fucking kill everyone in the clan before we allow other gickers. Bet you sponsored roles would sure like a drovian on the payroll hmm hmm? And we could make a punishment for a clanned gicker doing something bad, I'm actually thinking about giving him to fellow gickers to tear apart and kill. They'd certainly want to; they want everyone watching to know they highly disapprove of the offender, and that they aren't like him. What mundane wants to risk killing a witch that knows there's no way out, even one who won't fight back? Remind gemmed that their existence is a responsibility to the Highlord.

[number13]

Bet you sponsored roles would sure like a drovian on the payroll hmm hmm?

Yeah, they would. That's the problem. There's no siloing preventing magic-users from shitting all over mundanes' shticks, so all of these artificial constraints have been developed to ensure that Mundane #318 can do stuff and feel like he's got a shot at being halfway useful.

Balance magickers against mundanes better, and nobody will OOCly complain (as much) if there's a spooky gicker working as a spymaster for Lord Fancypants.  That's the tightrope act: magic has to seem all magical without making it pointless to play a mundane.  There should be certain tasks where a mundane is strictly better.

I have no idea how the new anti-magic defenses of city-states work, but it's probably a step in the right direction.

[Delirium]

I found Ouroboros's post very well thought-out and have to admit I see his viewpoint, even if I lean toward mages being more isolated by nature. I hope it's taken into consideration if/when there are any staff-side discussions.

As for player complaints and "balance"... the one constant in Armageddon is that players will complain. no matter what.

[hyzhenhok]

How "while a back" was this? Did this start happening after you branched a few times i.e. became useful? Could you safely elaborate?

In this case I had spent not a small number of hours roleplaying the character before he manifested, and he had already developed a series of habits and personality that were not going to change simply because he became gemmed. He was not useful yet. He was low-status for reasons beyond being gemmed, making him even more expendable. But it would not have made sense to completely alter his play just because I was OOCly fearful of getting PK'd by a templar. Sitting in your little box spam casting until you are "useful" is part of the tidy little package it appears you're supposed to stick to if you're playing a long-lived gemmed that I am simply not interested in.

[Delirium]

I never got that impression - maybe it depends on who's playing a Templar at the moment.

Which might need to be addressed?