I've noticed increased effort being made lately to attract new players to the mud. While this is undoubtedly very important, I wonder if enough effort is made to keep the veteran players, well, playing. And if not, what could be done to improve that?
Discuss. Or don't.
Cheers.
Quote from: charas on September 12, 2013, 11:45:37 AM
I've noticed increased effort being made lately to attract new players to the mud. While this is undoubtedly very important, I wonder if enough effort is made to keep the veteran players, well, playing. And if not, what could be done to improve that?
Discuss. Or don't.
Cheers.
Mid 2011 I left mad. I mean really mad. It started with an argument on the GDB. And while I don't mind if people disagree, I do mind being treated like an idiot. I think the single most important thing we can do for each other is pretend it's not the Internet and treat one another courteously. There are polite ways to differ and we should ( and I think over the years do) employ them.
With regards to play I think that we all need to self censor. Play the game in your mud-client and not your instant messenger.
Veteran players are largely subject to forces beyond anyone's control but their own: burnout, malaise, and general lifestyle changes that make it hard to find time/energy for Armageddon.
I think extended subguilds and skill bumps are a good way to let vets utilize their karma without necessarily playing supernatural classes, though. The best change that could be made to those is make them coded/regular applications already. (I also think for skill bumps you should be allowed as many bumps as you have karma/CGP, though possibly with limits on how many can go into any one skill and/or diminishing returns. So skill bumps beyond the first X would cost 2 CGP instead of just one for some skills.)
Quote from: Barzalene on September 12, 2013, 11:58:52 AMMid 2011 I left mad. I mean really mad. It started with an argument on the GDB. And while I don't mind if people disagree, I do mind being treated like an idiot. I think the single most important thing we can do for each other is pretend it's not the Internet and treat one another courteously. There are polite ways to differ and we should ( and I think over the years do) employ them.
With regards to play I think that we all need to self censor. Play the game in your mud-client and not your instant messenger.
Actually, this too. I do know of a few players that quit the game angrily under circumstances that could have been handled better by all parties involved.
I'm definitely feelin' the love. I just wish I had time to binge play like I did in my wild, irresponsible youth.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2013, 12:22:27 PM
I'm definitely feelin' the love. I just wish I had time to binge play like I did in my wild, irresponsible youth.
I feel bad now. Because the answer is yes for me too and my post was so negative. I have had a great experience this go round, in game, with staff via the request tool and on the boards.
If there were one thing about this game that's kept me hooked over the years it'd have to be what's been dubbed "gee-whiz factor". This is when you discover or experience something new about the game that makes you think "Wow, that's cool!" This game has many mysteries, secrets and experience that are just waiting to be discovered. The downside is that after a while the gee-whiz factor wears off.
Most of the players that have been around a while, have pretty much seen everything. While I'm not not personally claiming to have seen everything, there's probably little that I haven't seen or much that would surprise me anymore.
A fluid and changing world is a sure way to make sure that the game world isn't static and gives veteran players something new to discover and experience. The most recent HRPT does exactly this. I think it's awesome and am glad to see this kind of thing happening again, and so frequently. While I may not agree with some things (I loved the idea of Hlum nobility in Tuluk, I guess I'm falling out of love with Tuluk... maybe I'll manage to avoid smiting if I court Tektolnes), I love the idea that things are changing, especially when PC actions can and do influence those changes. One thing that is stifling is when player's actions and influence are the only things driving change. I'm of the opinion that while players should be able to initiate and influence changes, staff should be the driving forces relegating players to influence. While players should be expected to do things to make them happen, they should be able to expect that the game world is available to them to change when they do something. All players want feel like they (or anyone else) can leave their own mark on the game world. That's one of the things that makes our game so great, it's filled with a history created by the players.
After a few runs in the same clan, they can get boring with the only thing that is making them any different is their leader. There used to be (and this still might be the case) there were certain leaders that players would flock to. When people noticed these leaders, their clan's numbers would soar. Everyone knew that if they joined the clan with that leader they were going to have fun. LoD is the only one I feel comfortable naming, but there are several others that come to mind. People have fun in these clans because these leaders are proactive. They change the daily routine of their clanmates, they often inspire and empower the other members and give them purpose. It depresses me when I see role calls go out for sponsored leadership roles only to see another one go out only a month or two after. I think, "there goes another one". Being a leader in this game isn't for everyone. It takes some time, dedication, skill, knowledge and ambition. For the many of us that don't posses these natural abilities, we get inspired when leaders and staff are able to synergize more effectively, when staff let leaders know clearly what they want from their leaders while not only struggling leaders direction but the freedom to do their own thing, allowing them to engage their own creativity and take owner ship of whatever it is that they're doing. Often times the players vision and the staff's don't mesh, but when a clan leader and their clan staff can connect on new exciting ideas for a direction for their clan, this is where the magic beings to happen. Conversely, sometimes it's for a clan leader to feel like their on their own, I think this can contribute to leader atrophy, where some leaders lose their ambition and eventually give up.
Basically it comes down to Staff and their time, something that's always been scarce and in demand. I'm just glad that staff are currently doing much of this. Just knowing about the world changing events of the last HRPT alone make me want to play more, knowing that there's something new lurking in the future.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2013, 12:22:27 PM
I'm definitely feelin' the love. I just wish I had time to binge play like I did in my wild, irresponsible youth.
That pretty much sums up my current experience. Every time I play, I'm left feeling warm and fuzzy. I just don't play at
all like I used to. It was actually that lack of available play time that killed Arm for me up until recently. It profoundly changed the game for me, especially when contrasted with past "successful" characters I've run. But that's not something staff can make better, it's just something I had to adjust to.
I like the current direction of the game. I get the impression even as a fly on the wall that if I had the time and drive these days, I could make some new and interesting things happen while working with the staff. I feel like we've entered a good compromise on the player/staff-driven aspect of the game. It's good that all staff resources are focused on the current game these days, and it really shows.
As for the feeling of discovery, there's only so much that the world itself is going to give you. The real twists and turns are going to come from the characters themselves. I do have my own gripes about certain tropes that seem to be played over and over and over again. In fact, at my most "bitter, jaded veteran" moments, I'm prone to drop a sarcastic remark about the nature of PCs and pretend shock that something happened. Getting to know other Arm players can lead to this effect. Stupid me, I got married to one and RUINED ARM FOREVA. Note that none of this has anything to do with the codebase of the world, or staff actions; people change and so do perspectives.
There are some good thoughts in this thread. I'll just answer the question from my perspective. I don't have any insight yet. Also I agree with the "let's be cordial with each other" and the "can we pretend we're not in the interbutts." I think that the whole, "I can troll anybody I want or I can be as cruel as I like because it's the interbutt" philosophy sucks ass. I don't mind cruelty with a purpose, but thoughtless trolling is just that, thoughtless trolling, which dumbs down the environment both IG and on the GDB, so I am all for toning that down.
First played over a decade ago, been playing religiously (sigh, to the detriment of RL) for at least half as many years. I need roleplay in my life to survive daily stresses. In the past, when I was so new to the game I could only tolerate its difficulty in spurts, I would play P&P/tabletop games with friends to RP for the most part. Nowadays, because my schedule sucks, this MUD is the easiest way to get a quick fix of RP goodness.
Do I feel the love, being here this long? At times, I do, but half of the time it's tough love. Other times, I don't feel any love at all. I have felt like the imms have just outright hated on me in the past. But, I know they want me to play -- it's just, do they just want someone to kick around and treat like shit for the lulz? Am I a permanent loser in this game? I don't know. Also, I can't climb the social ladders, not the ones IG, not the GDB for sure. These are all really discouraging.
If you've ever gone into the learning theory literature, I am most definitely right at the "competent" phase (from novice to advanced beginner to competent to proficient to expert). The competent phase is defined by being emotionally invested in your outcomes. In my case, I feel a lot of pain when I fail to do something in this game, but also feel intense joys now and then when I rarely succeed. This phase in the player's development is the most difficult to get through -- in life, I usually fail to progress at many skills once I reach this phase. But if I'm going to keep going, dammit, because if I don't give it my all I can't look back and say that it was worth it. I apply the same philosophy to keep me going in my RL career path.
I also have the desire to see change: I want to see this game grow and inspire more and more people. It is a fantastic roleplaying environment. The world is just inspiring sometimes. I want to see the staff become larger, too. I think if there were 50 more players on every day, and 5 more staff to keep them all active and keep the world moving forward, that would just be amazing. I want to see this game attract major attention from the world, and I want to see this game used as a model for what immersive gaming is supposed to be.
So, I ain't quittin'. But, as I said above -- I don't feel the love a lot of the time.
Was anyone else vaguely hoping that this thread was going to be a poll with just the options "Yes" or "No"? Might just be me.
In terms of the game, I definitely feel the love. Staff have been amazing lately, and big things are happening. I like that. Our player numbers have jumped though the roof, and even late at night you stand a good chance of running into people in the population centers. If you never played when logging on after midnight meant seeing 'There are 2 players in the world, other than yourself' then you don't know how awesome that is. The Merchant clans are all staffed. The open noble Houses are all staffed. Could they use more people? Yes. But they're all there, and the gameworld gets a huge bump in variety and depth, as a result.
As to the GDB...don't look for love on the GDB. Self-love is the rule of law here. People may start to respect you, after you've been around a while, but what good is that? It won't keep newbs from mouthing off at you, it won't save you the moment someone who's been around longer disagrees with you, and since most veterans use alts in clan forums anyway, it won't even really help you to get to know people, seeking that ever elusive camaraderie some people seem to have.
Personally, my philosophy has been more to try to bring love to the GDB. Add to the gameworld. Make art. Write stories. Write utilities. Make interesting posts. If people like them, maybe you walk away with a little of that affection in change. And if not, well, at least YOU like them, right? Will it keep you from turning into a GDB troll necessarily? No. But at least it might put you on the black and help the next player to enjoy the game a little more.
Tough love. Sometimes. At best? I don't know. I love the game itself. And I appreciate the hard work the staff put into the game. But I've been playing for 5 years, and I can't get above 2 karma for different reasons at different times. And it seems silly. I have never missused power in the game, I've played a good raider before, and drov, there is even a statue to remember one of my No karma, no special app, completely normal guild/subguild commoner somewhere in the game world, built by someone else.
Why is this important to me? I know the usual arguement, "Don't worry about karma." Well after 5 years, it is nice to know that I am appreciated. Plus, the whole reason I started playing Arm 5 years ago was because I wanted to play a shadow mage.
Fredd, there was a reorg on the karma tree. Shadow mages are now 4 karma, which is withinh spec app distance of your current karma.
Also, I just wanted to be clear that I am not saying all veteran players are self-involved trolls who are only here to crush the spirit of newbs in favor of the way THEY want the game or the culture to be. But I am saying they all can be, myself included. It's a daily balancing act, but I think most everyone comes down on the aide of the community.
I bet I can guess what Fredd's question was about... ;D
Don't feel too bad. I'm up to ten years and only have two karma. Granted, I took some long hiatuses, and I've never asked for my account notes. I once special app'd a shadow mage because they also seem cool to me, but my app was rejected because I hadn't played another kind of mage yet. And since I'm not interested in playing a water or stone mage, I guess I'm just going to be forever playing mundanes.... which is fine by me, actually. The love I feel playing this game comes mostly from interactions with other players - the interpersonal relationships that my characters form. My interactions with staff have been pleasant all around. Of all the RPIs that I have played (pretty much all of them), I would say that Armageddon has the most professional staffing, which is a main reason that I keep coming back. So yes, I feel the love from staff, too, but is more of an efficient, benevolent dictator sort of love.
What can staff do to keep more vets around? Just keep up the good work. I like the game how it is already. As was pointed out by Marauder Moe, vets typically leave for reasons beyond staff control. When I leave for a while, it is usually due to either burnout or RL issues.
You should go ahead and play a stone mage. They are pretty rockin'.
Water mages are rather slick too.
lol
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 12, 2013, 04:14:59 PM
You should go ahead and play a stone mage. They are pretty rockin'.
And it's said the ladies love them.
But those wind mages know how to blow.
(I miss that bard.)
Krathi girls are hot. I dig redheads.
Elkrans keep things lively.
Drovians are at their best when the lights are off.
Nilazi... hmm... eh... I got nothing.
stop it
Quote from: James de Monet on September 12, 2013, 02:41:36 PM
Fredd, there was a reorg on the karma tree. Shadow mages are now 4 karma, which is withinh spec app distance of your current karma.
Yeah dude, special app one. Play one now!
I kinda hear you though. I've been playing for a while and all I ever wanted to play was a half-giant. Then they put in a more coherent special app system that I understand and feel comfortable with so I did. And it was fun.
True story.
Vaguely thread related even.
http://www.armageddon.org/original/type/Songs/search/ladies%20love%20a%20stone%20mage
For those who are confused.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2013, 04:20:59 PM
But those wind mages know how to blow.
(I miss that bard.)
>think frustration Maybe if I just found the right Whiran girl to settle down with I would feel the love.
You think, with frustration:
"Maybe if I just found the right Whiran girl to settle down with I would feel the love."
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 12, 2013, 04:14:59 PM
You should go ahead and play a stone mage. They are pretty rockin'.
Water mages are rather slick too.
Heh, I might one day. I'm about to start a new character soon, and I'm planning on using a (mundane) special app that I've had waiting in the wings for a long time now. So... maybe next time? I guess the most appealing idea of playing a magicker to me would be going through the manifestation process after having already socially integrated my character into a job and circle of friends. Somehow I have so far always come up with a more interesting mundane concept.
A bit more on topic: the addition of extended subguilds did help inject some new life into the game for me. That was a good idea.
First of all, I think veteran players are more likely to quit the game over a lack of time to play than they are over frustration about the game itself. You'd have to be really pissed to permanently give up a hobby of several years (and vets who do leave out of frustration tend to cool off and come back).
But I think a lot is being done lately to improve the experience of all players. The recent happenings in the game are a hopeful sign of more player-driven plots to come. Extended subguilds and the retuning of the karma system are pretty good. And additional players in the game thanks to increased voting helps overall with plots, clan population, etc. What may improve the experience further is looking at the more restrictive/subtractive changes that have been made, like closed clans, closed slave roles and ending certain types of promotions and considering whether there is a feasible way to reopen them (feasible as in, players are ready to handle it and staff have enough hands to take on the workload) or consider some kind of alternative, so the end result is additive.
Slaves and world expansion. To me, these are the two things that I currently dislike the state of. The latter appears to be happening which makes me very happy. Fix the former. When I play a mul, I want a master 90 percent of the time. Maybe I need to start a thread to collect ideas about how to make slavery a viable option. Of all the things that have changed over the past fifteen years, this is the thing we lost that made me the saddest.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2013, 04:20:59 PM
But those wind mages know how to blow.
(I miss that bard.)
A grey-eyed bard says, in northern-accented sirihish:
"I will now perform, 'Erdlu Without No Bone.'"
Quote from: LauraMars on September 12, 2013, 05:22:42 PM
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2013, 04:20:59 PM
But those wind mages know how to blow.
(I miss that bard.)
A grey-eyed bard says, in northern-accented sirihish:
"I will now perform, 'Erdlu Without No Bone.'"
YOU UNDERSTAND ME.
(sorry. back to your regularly scheduled thread.)
I'm going to assume that Amandagreathouse is not feelin' the love.
Assumption: Correct.
That said, I am really enjoying my current clan staff.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 12, 2013, 06:27:31 PM
That said, I am really enjoying my current clan staff.
Going to take another wild guess, it's Calavera, isn't it? :)
Nope, it's actually not. I could tell you who it was, but that would be more revealing than the rules encourage and I'm not quite drunk enough to go -there-.
I still wish that there was a simple yes/no poll option that people could use.
I guarantee if there was, you would have a lot more responses that were a lot more honest and telling.
This thread is going to have to stay away from anything IC. And if you do have problems with staff, you must go through the request tool. I'm not trying to be a fascist, but these threads can devolve fast without ground rules.
We all do care about players new and old. We've all been playing for a long time ourselves. Some of us still play. Making the game fun and the world consistent is a difficult balancing act and sometimes you might not understand or agree with our actions. Sometimes we might even seem like jerks. That's not our intention. A lot of discussion and consensus goes into decisions we make on the request tool and they are rarely unilateral.
Also, due to the nature of the game, we can rarely tell you all of the factors that go into a decision. We can't be transparent about everything. This causes an inherent trust issue that has been around as long as the game has. When I was a player I had my fair share of staff issues. I'd go as far to say that it is normal. It's the price we have to pay to have a game that is, in part, based on secrecy and misery. The best I can tell you to do is communicate on the request tool and not post complaints on the GDB while drinking.
I feel the love just fine. Clan and unclanned staff have been pretty awesome, from my perspective over the last year+. Presently I'm in a situation where the act of waiting - is torture. I'm assuming it just plain isn't my turn yet, and will be shortly. I just wish shortly would come quicker! <fidget>
I agree with what Cutthroat said. I have been on and off many times since I started as a freshman in college. And when I'm not playing its because I'm just too busy in RL to have time to sit down and play. As far as newbies go I try to help out as much as possible, but I do try to limit the use of OOC and try to refer them to the helpers chat when it isn't anything more than syntax or something really quick that can be helped either IG or OOC wise.
The only time I'm not playing is when this happens:
(http://www.delvedigger.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Black-Knight-monty-python.jpg)
But even then..
I wouldn't consider myself a 'veteran' by any stretch, but I feel the love all the time. I like how great things are possible but improbable.
I feel like I give the love.. I certainly give newbie love, with the back of my hand...
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1722804/feel-my-pimp-hand-o.gif)
As a veteran player (12 years and counting) who did something pretty stupid a few years back, was banned for it, and eventually welcomed back, I can say I definitely feel the love.
The longer you play, the more likely you are to find yourself at cross purposes with the staff and man, you just gotta keep calm and carry the fuck on.
self-policing. I have no need of or desire to go down this path.
Quote from: manonfire on September 12, 2013, 08:10:45 PM
The longer you play, the more likely you are to find yourself at cross purposes with the staff and man, you just gotta keep calm and carry the fuck on.
Hard to do in the heat of the moment but great advice. Also, don't be afraid to admit you're wrong, or right. Intention is as hard to express now as it was 15 years ago through the net.
My 2 sids?
I think veterans should care more about what we need to do to keep this game going than anything we've lost. We should do whatever we can to get new players AND respect the opinion of those who knew the game when it was truly gritty. I feel the game is a wee bit different, staff is different and the longevity of characters is
definitely different but the vibe is still the same overall.
Sometimes I feel the love, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I feel like the lack of love people feel is due primarily because of assumption. I've had interactions with staff that have been -really- good and some not. I respect the fact that staff volunteers their time. I do things IC that I feel normal for the character as it develops, I play for the story, I'll never know every spell in the book, the geography of the land and I'll likely never get another point of karma. But I'll keep playing as long as I have the time to burn.
Things I'd change to the old ways?
Reopening of certain clans.
Harder to be "independent".
Slavery.
Red Robes. (or the equivalent of that in whatever clan - at no time should you be force stored because you're too powerful or be forced to stay a certain rank because PCs "can't play X)
Not having the above doesn't change the love for me.
Do I feel the love? Sure. When the players and staff want me to. In the end, I play this game for fun. I play this game cause I love it. Of course I feel the love. The love is towards the game, everything else is gravy.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 12, 2013, 06:30:44 PM
I still wish that there was a simple yes/no poll option that people could use.
I guarantee if there was, you would have a lot more responses that were a lot more honest and telling.
Yes, because nothing is more honest and telling than a straight "yes" or a "no."
I will agree that it's hard for people to air grievances though, as by necessity they require "sensitive" information to be brought forth to illuminate them. And as Wug said, that works out best in a request, and it's not really cool to post that on the gdb.
The "love" we speak of in this thread is really subjective as well. The sourest of grapes can be created from anything ranging to a staffer abusing their position in the mud by creating game-breaking items for themselves, or by a staffer denying support for whatever pet project you have. One person's imm tyranny is another person's imm justice. Due to the strict secrecy regarding IC aspects of the game (the thing that keeps it running properly, in my opinion), us random players can't have total insight into such things to judge them ourselves. That's just the sort of price you pay for a game like this.
But take all of that with a grain of salt. After all, we don't have the yes/no button in this thread so I may not be being entirely open or honest about my opinion. ::)
Oh, speaking of slavery, I'd love to play a slave role at least once in game.
I understand that staff had very good reason to put a stop to them, but that doesn't stop me wanting to one day try for that wooden sword, or skitter along in the wake of the mighty, throwing flower petals or what-not. :)
Good thing is, never know what cool things the staff have up their sleeves for the future.
I want to play a hunched red-gith that is a slave of the yellow gith.
No.
I feel misunderstood, distrusted, angry, violent, as if everyone who is my superior is talking about me behind me back, and I have no control over anything.
So I remind myself, when I get on my computer, I need to put those RL frustrations away. For the most part, I do. When I was a teenager, I didn't, and that made me want to ragequit many times. A couple of times I did. I've always been a lurker on the GDB, and even though I have a lot to say, I feel as if others say it better, so I let them.
The reasons I'm not feeling the love, or feeling appreciated by staff are many faceted, but one big reason is there are no perfect ways for staff to say 'Good job!' or 'You're role-playing super well!' There are no perfect ways for staff, as a group, or individual, to give you the kind of feeling that telling your friends about your amazing stories will give you. Despite that, I suggest not talking to Arm players. Ever. Or Staff, except via reports. Documented, hard-copy pages, with precise language, no sarcasm ever, no jokes, no foul language, no religion, no leeway. <--- that should be your ooc experience. I feel as if I have to log every single thing I do. (I don't, because I'm lazy). Why do I feel that way? Because we are people. Flawed, individual people.
I read a response to a report I sent the other day, and I disagreed. The neurolinguistic processes involved, the wording, the placement, my mood, my perception of the responder, and many other variables fed into my immediate response: What the F!! How is that, I mean, come on!! (self-edited to remove expletives).
I then employed my most recent technique for dealing with all OOC communication regarding Arm. Are you ready? Here it is. Reread. Reread. Reread. Reword. Go have a break. Reread. Rephrase. Insert mental image of someone smiling. Insert positive, happy tone that text will always fail to communicate. Turn everything I find offensive into good-natured humor. If all else fails, get over myself.
After this, I like the staff member more. I liked the response more. I understand that I actually did make a mistake. After seven years of complaining about X silently to myself, I decided to finally do X since everyone else was obviously doing X, without getting called out on it. I didn't get called out on X, instead, X was pointed out, and a personal opinion was given. And I got upset, at first. Until I decided I wouldn't, and now I'm feeling much better about the whole situation. I don't know how to fix X, but I'm confident that if I work with staff, we'll figure it out together.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 12, 2013, 11:58:52 AM
Play the game in your mud-client and not your instant messenger.
I would add, or in your head, or out loud with friends. No asked me, but I will still tell you how I CAN feel the love. More work, less play. I sent in some songs one time, I felt super loved, and no one knew it was me, commented, or gave me praise. Also, if I want something in the game, or about it to change, I'm gonna have to START doing it myself, and try to get others to help me. (or use a low-orbit ion cannon to destroy everything! jk. That's thing is just a myth)
Advice for everyone: Love the story. Not the code, staff, players, anything else. Love the story. I will cut off my foot if it keeps this story going. There have been 10,00+ stories told using arm, and I expect 100,00 more, at least. (someone please Gimf this, ((yes, it's a verb now))
A lot of times I get pissed off, or upset, disappointed, and any random number of other negative emotions, but I have to remember something: Armageddon contains a piece of my soul. I put it there. Whoever you are, however I feel about you, if you have contributed something good to Armageddon, even a good experience for someone else, thank you. You've given something to a world that contains a piece of my soul. I owe you my foot for that. (it's in the mail)
I love you, ginka. I love you, staff. I love you, players.
I'm going to back to lurking now. Please, try and feel the love. If you can't, try and add some.
That was very well put, Kevo. It's truly upsetting to see people so upset by actions we can make on Staff. We are human, and we make mistakes -- I for one have taken unnecessarily negative tones with players before, only to turn around and apologize for being pig-headed and rude. We are all playing this game, and taking part in this hobby, for one reason: we enjoy the eternal story. That is why people keep coming back, even after leaving for years.
It's sometimes disappointing to see people turn to other websites or AIM contacts in this endless pursuit of democratic knowledge -- If Staff know it, why can't I? And so on. Unfortunately, the only people being robbed in that situation are the people using those boards to assimilate knowledge, rather than actually playing the game. I have learned to remain positive and focus my efforts on bettering the game at large, rather than focusing my time on negativity and negative actions, either against players or against the game.
I am still astounded by situations and experiences in the game while on Staff. That is correct -- Even with the knowledge at my fingertips. Because what knowledge cannot convey is experience. What knowledge cannot predict is the eternal story -- the relationships, conflicts, and sometimes that brilliant resolution to a plot. You have to play the game for yourself to enjoy it, and just as discovering something by your own merit IRL is more satisfying than skipping to the end or reading the cliffnotes, so it is in Zalanthas. Knowledge will never trump the experience, the adrenaline rush just before dying, or the eldritch knowledge discovered by your PC that they know will lead to their death if others found out.
Enjoy the game.
Hmm, I'm beginning to think my choice of title wasn't ideal...
And sorry guys, I didn't want a poll.
To clarify, I'm playing right now, it's awesome, and I have no grief with players or staff whatsoever, don't think I ever had for that matter.
In addition I do believe that the structure of policies, communication channels and the various OOC rules of this MUD are well honed and efficient in minimizing grief for everybody involved.
BUT, and this is why I opened this thread, I also do believe that it would be beneficial to the game as a whole to explore new ways of making the elderly players feel loved and appreciated.
Since obviously I can only speak from personal experience, here's one example that first got me to think about this:
So I was running one of those characters a couple of years ago that was long lived and had achieved virtually everything possible in all the different avenues of Zalanthan life. So at one point I felt like I had hit a glass ceiling in pretty much every aspect imaginable. As I am sure many of you have too, at some point.
Now when I came up playing this game, I was under the assumption from witnessing things in game, that there were no glass ceilings. And I loved the idea. Alas, probing staff in that direction back then gave me the impression they did indeed exist.
So, eventually I found myself playing less and less and at one point decided to store, which I don't normally do. The following couple characters didn't quite do it for me so I gradually faded into a prolonged hiatus. Until now.
A scenario I assumed isn't all that rare among our playerbase.
To cut it short now, in my opinion one solution to mitigate the above described effect would be for staff to break glass ceilings for deserving long-lived characters. I for one would much rather see people playing their way into things over the years (where applicable) than insta-have them via special app/karma.
Also, jealous love-letters from Ginka to people who haven't logged in a while.
That was a really well meaning and nice post. However, all I could think after reading this line...
Quote from: charas on September 13, 2013, 03:06:09 AM
I also do believe that it would be beneficial to the game as a whole to explore new ways of making the elderly players feel loved and appreciated.
SHALEAH GON BE MAD
The glass ceiling is OOCly discouraging, but I don't really think it can be helped, for now. Another reason we should all vote and pump up our playerbase with new blood. Bigger pyramids of power need more people at the bottom tryin' to climb up.
Ok - a more thoughtful response. The "glass ceiling" thing. I know how you feel about that, completely. But there actually did used to be less of a ceiling for players, and when the long lived, well played characters achieved something and were promoted beyond the level most players could achieve...things had a tendency to get...weird.
For instance, a long time ago I played with a blue robe Templar who got a red robe. He was a red robe Templar. Did he deserve his red robe? Sure, of course. He was a great leader and had accomplished much. Did it throw the balance of power in the city off a little? Yeah, it totally did. You would see a red robe dealing with, like, the day to day dramas of some militia Privates, or dealing with elven thieves, and it just felt strange, because Red Robed Templars don't do that. Not the vnpc ones, anyway. But the player wasn't going to stop interacting with her clan because her character was Red now and too important. That doesn't make sense either and it wouldn't be fair to expect the player not to take an interest in the clan she had built. There's more examples of how things became strange (there was no player of equal rank in the city, for instance, so the politics became a bit one sided) and there are many other in game examples of other characters and their promotions as well which I won't get into.
So yeah - I understand the desire for advancement. It feels cool to accomplish things in this game and feel proud. I also understand why we don't have it beyond a certain level, because at some point it starts to become at odds with the documentation. Sometimes, our characters' stories have to end - better an end by promotion than a scrab bite to the foot.
Damnit Laura, always saying things so much clearer than me.
Totes agree. :)
P. s. I apologize if that post seemed weird and mispelled I typed it with my thumbs in bed
The glass ceilings are there because, after a certain point, representing the role realistically means spending more time roleplaying with staff characters and less time roleplaying with player characters. Then, due to the lack of staff availability and due to the fact that they have things to do besides keep you occupied, playing beyond the glass ceiling can be just as boring and frustrating as pressing up against it. The latter, at least, still has you rubbing shoulders with PCs and not sapping so much staff time.
I don't think that retirement of a long-lived character should be viewed as a bad thing. Personally, I think that when you have a character who's had a full and interesting life, reached the glass ceiling in their clan, and has run out of interesting plot possibilities, retiring them is kind of like winning Armageddon. Let them live happily ever after or at least ride off into the sunset.
I agree with you guys, but to be fair, red-robing it up is on the extreme end of the spectrum of what I am talking about. Alas I fear further discussion of the 'glass ceilings' will be problematic since we do have to keep things rather vague up in here.
I can't really play this much as I used to, but yeah, I feel the love. Sometimes Natious and Hishn respond to my character reports with pictures of cats. I guess I'm just easy to please.
In all seriousness... I'm not really sure what we can do to encourage "veteran" players more than we already do. I mean, veteran players are the ones who tend to get access to things like karma, special apps, sponsored roles, and a lot of plots simply by their virtue of being more acquainted with the game and having some experience under their belts. None of these things are particularly "reserved" for older players, but I imagine it'd be difficult to get a special app for a psionicist approved if you've been playing less than a year.
In my opinion, the best rewards you get for being a player who's been around for a while aren't really the sort of thing staff or other players could just give you. They're in-game things such as having access to knowledge and survival skills that help you keep your character alive longer and get involved in more things.
If any thought is put into strategies to reward players or encourage them to feel the love, I'd rather it go to all players, not just veterans. Veterans have a lot of advantages already, and we shouldn't categorise our playerbase that way, because everyone started out new sometime.
I feel that, at a certain point, creating echoes, or animating npc's should be allowed for well-trusted, time-tested players. Monitored heavily, of course. It would help staff out, liven up the game, and we would not need thousands of storytellers to weave thousands of stories. Also, others could not be certain whether staff or the player was animating the NPC. IF you see an animation, as it is now, you know it is staff.
I'm sure there are flaws in I am not aware of.
The "glass ceiling" issue isn't as much of one as it used to be, I think - some roles have places in between the equivalent of "blue robe" and "red robe", that don't come with an official promotion but do come with additional responsibilities, and presumably, social rank. Other roles don't seem to as much. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think it's important to consider developing alternatives rather than completely reverse certain changes, and staff seem to be on the right track in that regard.
Perhaps mistakenly, I didn't think this was a poll about staff, but about the community. I mean we can't really affect staff, but we can own what we contribute.
Ok, I posted this before reading everything. I also posted before my brain is fully functional.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 13, 2013, 07:25:12 AM
Perhaps mistakenly, I didn't think this was a poll about staff, but about the community. I mean we can't really affect staff, but we can own what we contribute.
Ok, I posted this before reading everything. I also posted before my brain is fully functional.
Well.... I still love you! I know you don't know me (other than perhaps as that creepy anonymous dude over the internetz :-[) but I've always admired your horns! :-*
See there is love all around for everyone, sometimes whether we want it or not. :D
Editted to add something useful to the discussion:
To me its not that the player ceiling is too low but that npc and vnpc ceiling is way too high. This might be a shameless plug for my own vision of zalantas but if there weren't any over the top sorcerer kings fuelling the over powered black robes, then I think being a red robe or just a simple elementalist wouldn't be that bad in terms of power. Moving volcanoes might take a bit more prep time but otherwise achieving the absurd would still be possible with greater amount of effort and sacrifice
Quote from: LauraMars on September 13, 2013, 03:15:08 AM
That was a really well meaning and nice post. However, all I could think after reading this line...
Quote from: charas on September 13, 2013, 03:06:09 AM
I also do believe that it would be beneficial to the game as a whole to explore new ways of making the elderly players feel loved and appreciated.
SHALEAH GON BE MAD
See? How can you feel the love when they treat you like this? Damned disrespectful newbies. Back when -I- was a newbie we respected our elderly, helped them cross Caravan, paid for their ale, signatured their witty gdb posts and listened attentively to their stories. And we got killed crossing the desert every day to go to school too. Up hill both ways.
Back on topic.
Without the older, decrepit, experienced, Arm-educated hard knocks survivors err veterans, who would teach the newbies hire it's done the right way?
Things staff can do to show love?
1. Like OP said, get rid of the glass ceiling. Sit the character down, tell him/her that this promotion means such and such and let them have a chance. There is always someone above you, more power more watching.
2. Offer/ask/recommend players to play roles you think are suited for their play styles.
3. Kudos them.
4. Remember, just because you're the gate keepers doesn't mean you're always right.
5. Consider how you add account notes. The way some of them read is cringe worthy, some are downright lies, some even seem like personal attacks.
How about players?
1. Kudos, a lot, often. I know someone who kudos everyone and their mother when they die, that's awesome. Lets you know you impacted their character in some way. I rarely send them out, I should show more love.
2. Lead by example. Teach, mold, cultivate a great player when you see a newb. This is the only way -I- feel is acceptable to bend character for ooc reasons, spotting a newbie.
3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.
4. Vote!
Most importantly? How do we, as players, show STAFF the love?
1. Kudos. Whether it be every week on those character reports or actual kudos, send them in.
2. Treat them with respect.
3. Be grateful. Without them, we wouldn't have this wonderful addiction coursing through our veins.
4. Apologize if you were a fuck. Profusely if necessary.
5. Do what they ask.
The world is harsh enough without our having to bring it out here.
I heard shaleah was a real firebrand back in the day
in her youth
I should mention something.
edit: Ohh..... I get it now.
The reason staff respond better to my reports when I play "good" PCs is... that my reports are "good" also. The tone is better, and I am more thankful and positive and they feed off that and reflect it back to me.
Thanks, Shaleah. I read your post and now I see the light.
Quote from: ShaLeah on September 13, 2013, 09:08:44 AM3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.
I love the rest of the post, but I have to take exception to this. Send kudos instead.
I would really rather not cap an amazing scene with an awkward OOC exchange, i.e. do I ignore the OOC and feel like a total jackass or break my own rules and say "er, thanks, you too"? Don't put me in that position, man! Don't break OOC unless you
have to.
Maybe that makes me a grouchy hardass but I feel it really does improve the game when we keep strict boundaries of IC/OOC.
Sometimes I'll have staff comment on my apps and they'll say things like "interesting concept!" "neat idea!". etc. Thats nice. IT MAKS MUH FEEL GOOD IN THE HEARTSTRINGS. Then there are the times you get terse, one sided comments without being able to respond and you're left feeling like someone kicked you in the head. C'est la vie my nigs.
I wish the wish (lol) system was a little more transparent. Like if you knew if your clan staff was on, or simply if immortals were actually listed under who. But Wastrel! Then everyone would be wishing all the time! Just give people an allowance of a couple wishes a week. Big whoop. If you're a bigshot you get more. Also I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think all of the staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!
Quote from: Delirium on September 13, 2013, 11:26:16 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on September 13, 2013, 09:08:44 AM3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.
I love the rest of the post, but I have to take exception to this. Send kudos instead.
Word. Besides, then you can obsessively read and re-read the kudos email, and then put it in a special folder you created just for kudos so that you can look back on all the kudos you've ever received whenever you want to feel warm and fuzzy.
...not that I do that or anything.
Quote from: Wastrel on September 13, 2013, 11:31:30 AMAlso I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think the majority of staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!
Not sure what you're hearing (or from whom) but what barriers are you talking about?
Quote from: LauraMars on September 13, 2013, 11:34:24 AM
Quote from: Delirium on September 13, 2013, 11:26:16 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on September 13, 2013, 09:08:44 AM3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.
I love the rest of the post, but I have to take exception to this. Send kudos instead.
Word. Besides, then you can obsessively read and re-read the kudos email, and then put it in a special folder you created just for kudos so that you can look back on all the kudos you've ever received whenever you want to feel warm and fuzzy.
...not that I do that or anything.
You don't have to, I personally don't mind it. Better than not getting official kudos and not knowing your character affected them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2V_ZT-nyOs
As to the glass ceiling conundrum --
As Laura pointed out, it creates a schism when someone is promoted to a rank where their responsibilities mostly entail over-arching changes to their clan. They aren't really supposed to be dealing with the day to day, they have underlings for that. They would be dealing with much 'larger deals'. In the case of House Salarr, for example, a Master Agent or equiv. title would be dealing with those 20-30k orders from the Templarate to arm their armies, or a Kadian equiv. would be supplying uniforms for the rank-and-file of House Fale. These deals are almost 100% virtual. While we could make these deals non-virtual for the sake of a PC in this position -- All that does is create more work for us. Whenever we have an NPC dealing with an NPC, we have to stop ourselves and say "Now wait a minute...Who is benefiting from this? How much time is this taking me?" We would rather spend that time on PC to PC interaction, always.
Beyond this, yes, Staff does wish to have a strong hand in what an organization is doing. There is a reason this game has functioned and prospered for over 20 years -- Change happens, when it makes sense. There are a lot of actions that take place due to attrition, boredom, and for the sake of fun which are TOTALLY understandable. I have been there myself as a player, wanting to mix things up and spice up what I perceived as an otherwise dull playground. However, in the case of these large organizations like Salarr and the Templarate, such moves would be weighed carefully, by others of similar rank, or greater rank. The higher a PC gets in these organizations, the easier it is for them to make sweeping changes overnight. Combined with most of the job being 100% virtual, and not having day-to-day stuff to do...It usually leans towards decisions that are exaggerated and melodramatic, just to get something done.
There is a fine balancing act between vertical and horizontal promotions -- Something we have been instituting is creating more latitude to a role, with more customization and horizontal promotions. In the case of House Salarr, this might be something like 'taking over X account', while with a Templar it might be 'learning cool new thing X', or in the case of a Noble, taking over control of 'organization Y' within the House, or being put in charge of handling X Y Z that needs doing. These added responsibilities show that you are becoming more valuable as an employee or family member to your organization, without leading to the aforementioned problems with shattering the glass ceiling and letting people in to roles that would (honestly) be pretty boring if played properly.
Quote from: Kevo on September 13, 2013, 05:28:10 AM
I feel that, at a certain point, creating echoes, or animating npc's should be allowed for well-trusted, time-tested players. Monitored heavily, of course. It would help staff out, liven up the game, and we would not need thousands of storytellers to weave thousands of stories. Also, others could not be certain whether staff or the player was animating the NPC. IF you see an animation, as it is now, you know it is staff.
I'm sure there are flaws in I am not aware of.
This is an intriguing idea. The problem that I see with it is one-sidedness. Even if a player is a consummate professional, and never directly abuses the system, human nature will not generally make them want to create echoes that harm their character.
For example, say you are playing a Gemmed magicker. Writing echoes about how people start to get afraid of you when you get angry is realistic, and adds to the game world. Writing echoes about how people spit at you, and glare or ignore you when you walk into a bar is also realistic, but I can't help but imagine it would be far less common (especially when the player had no intention of REACTING to said mistreatment - reacting in way to overcome it just turns that negative back into a positive).
Maybe there would have to be a restriction that such abilities could not be used to relate to
your own character in any way. Dunno.
I also wanted to say: Kudos are not a tool meant for veterans. Everybody loves kudos! So, even if you're new and uncertain of the game world, if someone does something that makes you OOCly enjoy the game more (your character doesn't have to like it!), send them kudos! Veterans, send kudos to new people! A scene doesn't have to go 100% perfectly to warrant kudos. You can always note in the request that '(x) could have gone better, but (y) was awesome!'.
Share the love! Make a scene.
If you're a well-trusted player and you want to do environmental echoes or affect big plots then you should join the staff.
Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2013, 11:37:56 AM
Quote from: Wastrel on September 13, 2013, 11:31:30 AMAlso I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think the majority of staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!
Not sure what you're hearing (or from whom) but what barriers are you talking about?
The stopgap that forces all items/npcs/rooms to be approved by an admin or higher, really.
That does not seem like a very good idea to me.
Quote from: Wastrel on September 13, 2013, 03:27:41 PM
Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2013, 11:37:56 AM
Quote from: Wastrel on September 13, 2013, 11:31:30 AMAlso I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think the majority of staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!
Not sure what you're hearing (or from whom) but what barriers are you talking about?
The stopgap that forces all items/npcs/rooms to be approved by an admin or higher, really.
I wouldn't call it a stopgap (by definition, that's a temporary way of dealing with something). This is a procedure--we do this every time for consistency's sake. Yes, we do have an approval process for new items, new NPCs, and new rooms. This is true in general and it is doubly true when it is for a plot-related event. Right now I've got a few things I need to review for a project I've taken on; I let the storyteller know that I'd be able to review it today. In this case and most others, the review process is there to catch mistakes such as typos, bugs, or more systemic issues that need to be addressed. Having that extra set of eyes on it really helps! Even when we have this, we still occasionally have some areas where things slip past because it's a typo, but not an obvious one (for instance, juts and just are both spelled correctly, but mixing up the letters can make one into the other very easily). Additionally, it helps in training. There have been a few times when a craft has been submitted and I caught a problem with it that wouldn't be noticed unless it was implemented (usually). I let the staffer know and pointed out the issue. Finally, while it's not something I've seen, having that kind of requirement (anything new being built should be approved specifically by an admin+) also lessens the chances for favoritism and unfair situations.
It introduces delays for having things added to the game, yes, but not large delays. I think the tradeoff is definitely for the betterment of the game.
And I think it's those procedures that make Armageddon such a high-quality mud compared to many other muds I've tried in the past.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 13, 2013, 01:12:13 PM
If you're a well-trusted player and you want to do environmental echoes or affect big plots then you should join the staff.
That's the simplest way I've seen it put. I think there are just some ranks within organizations that shouldn't be attainable by PCs, and this coming from someone who -wants- to do one of those roles. But I agree, if I really wanted to do it, apply for staff.
Then again, that's a scary thought, and I'll stay licking my superiors boots, thank you. ;D
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 13, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
That does not seem like a very good idea to me.
It is a good idea. We all try to have multiple people look over what we make. Multiple layers of review ensures that we don't put low quality stuff into the game and that the theme stays consistent. We also need to document what we build so that when we leave and new staff come on they'll be able to see just what the heck that doohickey out in the middle of nowhere was for. A lot of the earlier stuff in game did not have the same review process and so it's very hard to track down what some things are, who they belonged to, and so on.
There's some impression that this presents a bottleneck. It doesn't. Most approval requests are done within a day or two and we're usually actively discussing things as we build them.
Quote from: Wug on September 13, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 13, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
That does not seem like a very good idea to me.
It is a good idea. We all try to have multiple people look over what we make. Multiple layers of review ensures that we don't put low quality stuff into the game and that the theme stays consistent. We also need to document what we build so that when we leave and new staff come on they'll be able to see just what the heck that doohickey out in the middle of nowhere was for. A lot of the earlier stuff in game did not have the same review process and so it's very hard to track down what some things are, who they belonged to, and so on.
There's some impression that this presents a bottleneck. It doesn't. Most approval requests are done within a day or two and we're usually actively discussing things as we build them.
I think MeTekillot was referring to Wastrel's idea about doing away with the current approval process for certain items, not saying the process is not a good idea.
Quote from: Wug on September 13, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
It is a good idea. We all try to have multiple people look over what we make. Multiple layers of review ensures that we don't put low quality stuff into the game and that the theme stays consistent. We also need to document what we build so that when we leave and new staff come on they'll be able to see just what the heck that doohickey out in the middle of nowhere was for. A lot of the earlier stuff in game did not have the same review process and so it's very hard to track down what some things are, who they belonged to, and so on.
There's some impression that this presents a bottleneck. It doesn't. Most approval requests are done within a day or two and we're usually actively discussing things as we build them.
I read everything you write in your avatar's voice. I even put in his pauses and imagine his facial expressions.
This is beautiful, and sad.
Quote from: Desertman on September 13, 2013, 04:36:40 PM
I read everything you write in your avatar's voice. I even put in his pauses and imagine his facial expressions.
This is beautiful, and sad.
Oh shit. I just realized I was doing that.
Personally, I'm pissed at Calavera. She kept calling my character fat Tony.
in this thread: people saying they're pissed when they're really overjoyed :P
Quote from: Dar on September 13, 2013, 05:29:14 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 13, 2013, 04:36:40 PM
I read everything you write in your avatar's voice. I even put in his pauses and imagine his facial expressions.
This is beautiful, and sad.
Oh shit. I just realized I was doing that.
Personally, I'm pissed at Calavera. She kept calling my character fat Tony.
Personally, I'm pissed at Nautious for referring to a dead character almost every time he answers a damned character report! Somehow I think he's trying to jab me.
(kidding, I love me some Natious) :-*
Quote from: Harmless on September 13, 2013, 05:46:19 PM
in this thread: people saying they're pissed when they're really overjoyed :P
Kudos Harmless!
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 13, 2013, 01:12:13 PM
If you're a well-trusted player and you want to do environmental echoes or affect big plots then you should join the staff.
I think his point was that by leveraging the high karma pbase to do these sorts of things as well, you could seriously increase the amount of it going on, thereby dramatically fleshing out the game world, without the need to triple(+) the number of "staff".
I don't think his point was just that he wants to do these things, and can't.
That being said, you can already do this to a lesser extent by use of emotes (>em stares toward the horizon as the dying rays of Suk-Krath scrabble for purchase across the unforgiving ground before slipping away.). You can add world flavor, you can paint a picture for other players, but you can only do it by referencing your own character, and you are forbidden from forcing emotions and reactions on other characters, virtual or no.
Actually mete was referring to the player animation thing. Or more likely he being sardonic towards me. I doubt he was agreeing with me.
Quote from: James de Monet on September 13, 2013, 06:02:16 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 13, 2013, 01:12:13 PM
If you're a well-trusted player and you want to do environmental echoes or affect big plots then you should join the staff.
, and you are forbidden from forcing emotions and reactions on other characters, virtual or no.
I don't agree in some instances on virtual PCs of certain types. Can't we, for example, have shopkeeps react a little after fucking up some haggling or buying something really expensive? I mean, if I just went to a Kadian and bought a two-large rock attached to a string, I think I'm allowed to power emote them at least nodding at me, and maybe, just -maybe- with a smile, too.
But I don't agree with anything beyond the mildest reactions, and only when other IG information is consistent with it.
Can I be a veteran?
I feel loved.
Quote from: Feco on September 13, 2013, 08:03:18 PM
Can I be a veteran?
I feel loved.
Yes, if just only for tonight. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0pqcIHyc3A)
Quote from: charas on September 12, 2013, 11:45:37 AM
I've noticed increased effort being made lately to attract new players to the mud. While this is undoubtedly very important, I wonder if enough effort is made to keep the veteran players, well, playing. And if not, what could be done to improve that?
Discuss. Or don't.
Cheers.
First agree on the goal. If the goal is to increase veteran presence, then encourage more play. Seems like a pretty simple concept. How do you do that? If you're having trouble coming up with some good answers, use the 180 degree technique:
"How can I discourage veteran players from playing Arm so much"
1) Don't answer them when they write to staff
2) Ignore reports
3) Ignore good play
4) Ridicule them openly for trying something new
5) Take Karma away anytime they ask for something
6) Reduce their character's stats when they make a mistake
7) Make sure they're alone as possible when logged in
8) Penalize them when they acquire too many hours per rl week on their character
9) Send negative notes to their account
10) Sabotage any efforts they have of starting a plot / quest
11) Log in frequently with a superior NPC and berate their character in front of everyone
The above is not an invitation for you to identify which has happened to you, which Imm was naughty or nice or which one is drinking coke over pepsi. The above is a list meant to encourage veteran sustainability and a more frequent presence. So, make a list of your own like I did above, then reverse them. Not every idea is going to be shiny metal, most of them probably won't be. That's how creative brainstorming works. Come up with a lot of shitty ideas and pluck a few hairy ideas from the heap, then maybe find one good one lurking in the leaves and kernels.
(For those of you on too much Red Bull and not enough sleep, the numbers below coincide with the numbers above)
1) Give veterans priority when responding. They're veterans and probably aren't asking (as many) stupid questions.
2) Give kudos and feedback on reports. I have to do weekly reports for work. If I have to do them for Arm too it'd be nice to be acknowledged as a great way to keep a busy staff member in the loop and not just something routine someone will get to after they've cleaned their fish tank.
3) Reward good play. There's all sorts of ways to do this. Animating an NPC, dropping an item where they can find it. Sending an interesting room echo, even a benign one can offer a splash of color to our otherwise green terminal (yes I still use zmud, I'm lame).
4) Offer recognition somehow for veterans who try new things. Maybe you help them out at just the right moment, maybe you call attention to their actions afterwards, either IC or OOC somehow. Master, autonomy and purpose. Read Daniel H. Pink - Drive (Does Arm still have the Amazon account? It's not expensive).
5) I'm sure there's already an established system for staff giving Karma, maybe there's no value in this one.
6) Increase character stats temporarily? Maybe character finds a goblet that temporarily increases stats, maybe they kill something that releases magickal properties that sends everyone in the room to full health / stam / mana, etc.
7) Maybe use NPC / avatars to bring a few iso characters together. A bartender asking to fetch something from the market? A house or clan needing supplies (honestly, make your shit run out more often. You have to be low on stuff, especially if you're a big house). If you have a clan with a room stock full of stuff, make some of it disappear, perhaps on an automated system. Organize routine and non-routine hunting parties, have an NPC teach some skills that are otherwise difficult to learn. Maybe add a woodworking skill to someone's skill list. I mean god forbid I get whittled to death by that assassin's uber carving skill.
8) Reward frequent players, most especially leaders. Establish hell week (or month), if the leader can finish a period of time and retain 80% of the starting characters then some rewards are in order, either IC or OOC. Hell maybe just a bit of your time would suffice, MUD sex, whatever the veteran wants, I'm not here to judge (you sick bastard). Just a bit of help here and there from staff, then veteran leader players really can make the game kick ass. They're like pizza, even if they suck they're still probably pretty good.
9) Positive notes to the account. I've had imms just say a quick hi when I log in, that was pretty cool, before the days of the note / request system, etc. Appreciating the fear of getting mobbed with impromptu requests, it's kinda cool to just converse briefly.
10) Help along the efforts of the player. I started an auction for an estabalished clan and an imm avatar / character showed up just in time to not make me look like a supreme ass, no small feat (thanks for that) and offer items I would've otherwise been unable to get / auction off on my own.
11) Log in once in a while with a superior NPC and encourage a direction / action of the veteran (then disappear before you get mobbed with requests ... heh)
Of course I focus on things a staff member can do to encourage veterans, what can normal players do?
Whether normal player or staff, the key is low-hanging fruit - what's the least amount of effort I have to put in to have some fun, for the staff member too? Be lazy, you have permission. What's a tiny thing that's easy to pull off that will generate a lot of fun? Is it something that can be done periodically? If it's fun, re-use the idea.
My 2¢
Now I would be interested to see a post about "what could veteran players do to encourage staff". ;)
Quote from: Wug on September 13, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 13, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
That does not seem like a very good idea to me.
It is a good idea. We all try to have multiple people look over what we make. Multiple layers of review ensures that we don't put low quality stuff into the game and that the theme stays consistent. We also need to document what we build so that when we leave and new staff come on they'll be able to see just what the heck that doohickey out in the middle of nowhere was for. A lot of the earlier stuff in game did not have the same review process and so it's very hard to track down what some things are, who they belonged to, and so on.
There's some impression that this presents a bottleneck. It doesn't. Most approval requests are done within a day or two and we're usually actively discussing things as we build them.
My post was in reference to Wastrel's proposal to remove this review process.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 14, 2013, 03:58:19 AM
Quote from: Wug on September 13, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 13, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
That does not seem like a very good idea to me.
It is a good idea. We all try to have multiple people look over what we make. Multiple layers of review ensures that we don't put low quality stuff into the game and that the theme stays consistent. We also need to document what we build so that when we leave and new staff come on they'll be able to see just what the heck that doohickey out in the middle of nowhere was for. A lot of the earlier stuff in game did not have the same review process and so it's very hard to track down what some things are, who they belonged to, and so on.
There's some impression that this presents a bottleneck. It doesn't. Most approval requests are done within a day or two and we're usually actively discussing things as we build them.
My post was in reference to Wastrel's proposal to remove this review process.
Gotcha!
Quote from: Welda on September 14, 2013, 03:30:47 AM
Now I would be interested to see a post about "what could veteran players do to encourage staff". ;)
What could veteran players* do for staff? Make me a weird forum avatar. If you make me a weird avatar I will make you a weird avatar in return. First person to make me a weird avatar gets a weird avatar.
*veteran player status is defined only within your own heart
Quote from: Welda on September 14, 2013, 03:30:47 AM
Now I would be interested to see a post about "what could veteran players do to encourage staff". ;)
We could bring formalized religion back the game, and each active Imm would have a shrine somewhere in the world. Players could make pilgrimages to them to receive your blessing, start wars in your name, and sing songs of your bounteous provision (now available on an ad hoc, as requested, catalogical basis!)
(http://s23.postimg.org/nlck2f1mj/itstoogayinhere.png)
Quote from: Wug on September 14, 2013, 04:40:25 AM
If you make me a weird avatar I will make you a weird avatar in return. First person to make me a weird avatar gets a weird avatar.
Aww, man! This when I'm 400 miles away from Photoshop?
But, let's be honest...we know how JDM feels about avatarious infidelity anyway...Also, for the record, HunterKiller, since we are on the topic of sharing the love, I don't know if I'm onboard with Goblets of Mass Heal +3, but I like your writing style. It amuses me. ;D
Quote from: James de Monet on September 14, 2013, 05:08:27 AM
Also, for the record, HunterKiller, since we are on the topic of sharing the love, I don't know if I'm onboard with Goblets of Mass Heal +3, but I like your writing style. It amuses me. ;D
Yeah, not quite on board for stat buffs for long-lived characters and healing magick for killing monsters either. Still, some good ideas in there, in particular the animating clan NPCs to drop in and swap stories of old times. :)
Quote from: Drayab on September 12, 2013, 04:01:03 PM
I bet I can guess what Fredd's question was about... ;D
Got in a fight with Nyr, and lost Karma. Adhira said I could have it back in 3 months if there's been no bad notes. Hence why it went to a question not account notes.
Was there negative notes?
No= Return karma point
yes= Dont return Karma (provide said notes so I can improve)
Quote from: Fredd on September 14, 2013, 08:00:26 AM
Got in a fight with Nyr
...Now I've got visions in my head of a swarm of little furry things with rocks fighting Fry from Futurama.
Wug, here is your new avatar.
(http://i.imgur.com/EFcA3U2.gif)
Quote from: Fredd on September 14, 2013, 08:00:26 AM
Quote from: Drayab on September 12, 2013, 04:01:03 PM
I bet I can guess what Fredd's question was about... ;D
Got in a fight with Nyr, and lost Karma.
This is a bad way to describe or look at interaction with staff or players on this game (probably bad to do this in description of other things in life, too). It removes all of the context and boils everything down to what ultimately happened negatively to you (staff does not trust you as much and now your karma is one point lower) and arbitrarily assigns reasoning for that without looking at the larger picture (because you got in a fight with a staff member). What did you get in a fight with a staff member over, exactly? What is it that you did that caused a staff response? For the sake of reassurance here, it was
not an argument or disagreement and I doubt you can call it a fight. It isn't that appropriate to discuss here because that's between you and staff. However, it's also not doing any favors for you if you take great pains to avoid accepting responsibility for your own actions and instead try and paint it as a "fight" when the truth is much different than that.
Hm, there are some decent ideas in here, and the tone stayed amazingly civil. I'm proud of you guys.
Quote from: Welda on September 14, 2013, 03:30:47 AM
Now I would be interested to see a post about "what could veteran players do to encourage staff". ;)
Go ahead and open one up, I am sure there are some things that could be done to increase the shelf-life of staff. And I believe someone already laid the foundation.
Quote from: ShaLeah on September 13, 2013, 09:08:44 AM
Most importantly? How do we, as players, show STAFF the love?
1. Kudos. Whether it be every week on those character reports or actual kudos, send them in.
2. Treat them with respect.
3. Be grateful. Without them, we wouldn't have this wonderful addiction coursing through our veins.
4. Apologize if you were a fuck. Profusely if necessary.
5. Do what they ask.
Let me just say here that it is the unbroken spirit of these staunch supporters of Ginka that made us make this thread walker accessible.
Quote from: Fathi on September 13, 2013, 04:55:55 AM
(...) Sometimes Natious and Hishn respond to my character reports with pictures of cats (...)
Thank you Fathi for putting a finger on the blatant, ney, rampant favoritism that is plaguing this mud - I have yet to receive one lousy picture.
(make it boobs)Quote from: Cutthroat on September 13, 2013, 05:57:22 AM
The "glass ceiling" issue isn't as much of one as it used to be, I think - some roles have places in between the equivalent of "blue robe" and "red robe", that don't come with an official promotion but do come with additional responsibilities, and presumably, social rank. Other roles don't seem to as much. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think it's important to consider developing alternatives rather than completely reverse certain changes, and staff seem to be on the right track in that regard.
Well, this makes me optimistic, I am looking forward to see how things will work out in the future.
Quote from: Feco on September 13, 2013, 08:03:18 PM
Can I be a veteran?
No. Get out. ;)
Also Nyr and Fredd, this thread's for lovers not for fighters.
Quote from: charas on September 14, 2013, 10:14:34 AM
Also Nyr and Fredd, this thread's for lovers not for fighters.
Fair point! :)
For some reason this image pops up in my head when I see this thread title:
(http://doblelol.com/uploads/17/new-funny-shirts.jpg)
Quote from: Nyr on September 14, 2013, 08:22:42 AM
Quote from: Fredd on September 14, 2013, 08:00:26 AM
Quote from: Drayab on September 12, 2013, 04:01:03 PM
I bet I can guess what Fredd's question was about... ;D
Got in a fight with Nyr, and lost Karma.
This is a bad way to describe or look at interaction with staff or players on this game (probably bad to do this in description of other things in life, too). It removes all of the context and boils everything down to what ultimately happened negatively to you (staff does not trust you as much and now your karma is one point lower) and arbitrarily assigns reasoning for that without looking at the larger picture (because you got in a fight with a staff member). What did you get in a fight with a staff member over, exactly? What is it that you did that caused a staff response? For the sake of reassurance here, it was not an argument or disagreement and I doubt you can call it a fight. It isn't that appropriate to discuss here because that's between you and staff. However, it's also not doing any favors for you if you take great pains to avoid accepting responsibility for your own actions and instead try and paint it as a "fight" when the truth is much different than that.
Knew you were going to come back and say that. Truth of the matter, this is why I don't feel the love. Right here.
I didn't want to go into specifics. Did I do something wrong: absolutely. Did it make sense to me to do it: absolutely. Did You completely overreact? Absolutely. And did I put in a staff complaint because I felt you were out of line: Absolutely.
So, I wanted to leave it at the arguement part of all that, and not bother with specifics. But I'm not embaressed about what I did. It made sense to me to do it, it was wrong, I learned my lesson. I didn't need a ban, I didn't need karma pulled, and I don't need you policing every post I make, and every request I put in, when I take pains to play in parts of the world you aren't.
So This is why I don't feel the love. I don't think I'm a problem player. I work hard to make my PC's well rounded, with depth, I try to help new players as much as possible, I try to improve the game world, and I vote daily, and I'm usualy really good with staff communication and account notes.
But this is how I'm treated.
Quote from: manonfire on September 14, 2013, 08:07:48 AM
Wug, here is your new avatar.
(http://i.imgur.com/EFcA3U2.gif)
Hey man, I'm pretty sure you didn't make that.
I'm sorry you're not feeling the love, Fredd. I don't have any animosity towards you and I assure you that how this was handled was how it would be handled for any player in the same situation.
Quote from: Wug on September 14, 2013, 04:21:35 PM
Quote from: manonfire on September 14, 2013, 08:07:48 AM
Wug, here is your new avatar.
(http://i.imgur.com/EFcA3U2.gif)
Hey man, I'm pretty sure you didn't make that.
You'll take your new avatar and you'll enjoy it or I swear I'll turn this car around.
Quote from: Nyr on September 14, 2013, 10:22:01 AM
For some reason this image pops up in my head when I see this thread title:
(http://doblelol.com/uploads/17/new-funny-shirts.jpg)
Yeah, I mean... everything seems to be fine right now, but I'm afraid somebody is going to start something. Maybe the thread should get locked?
I think for me the furthest I ever went, save for a stupid newbie moment the explanation of which I don't think is going to be helpful to many people, was this one thing a long time ago. I'd made a blind pc with the potential for great listening skills if trained, but without direction sense. They were blind, so I put people in their tdesc to give her an alibi for getting lost in total darkness and using torches in them. A member of staff thought I was trying to have vnpc protecters and gave me a warning, with my next screw-up to get me banned from the game. I'm pretty sure that never actually got resolved, but since I wasn't banned I don't feel like it matters, especially since its been a long time and I don't feel like I'm going to be a problem again.
So basically NEVER PUT ANYTHING ALIVE THAT CAN PROTECT YOU IN YOUR TDESC
I definitely feel the love when staff screws with my pc. One time, I didn't even have to ask! :3 I thought my asking in character reports and all that was getting irritating to those who were reading it: apparently someone decided to send (awesome thing) into (awesome event) for (awesome) and it was (awesome). I am both hopeful and afraid that it will happen again, especially since I have no intention of stopping asking in my reports. Its a joy to bring death or strange and hapless suffering to my pc for others to watch, and its nice of staff to help accommodate me, or to be patient until I realize I can do (thing I'm asking for) by myself.
There's also some other stuff but this is what came to mind first. Little things, big things.
Players: WOOOOOO
That is all for now because my brain is tired of writing.
YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE
YOU KNOW WHO YOU BARZALENE
:P
And everyone else whose GDB handles I don't actually remember.
I think we're all a bunch of loveable assholes :D
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 14, 2013, 05:34:54 PM
I think we're all a bunch of loveable assholes :D
This.
Should added as a requirement. ;D
Quote from: Nyr on September 14, 2013, 04:33:57 PM
I'm sorry you're not feeling the love, Fredd. I don't have any animosity towards you and I assure you that how this was handled was how it would be handled for any player in the same situation.
Um..Alright. Sorry for being as upset as I was. Thank you Nyr.
I've played since the days of Thrain Ironsword and this MUD has never been better than it is right now. Some of the reasons include, interesting/developed clans, active/talented staff, tons of guilds and skills, character reports, lots of players, and an advanced economy. However, I read all five pages of this post and I don't think anyone mentioned the most important thing involved in retaining veteran players.....
(http://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/drum-roll-please.png)
FAIRNESSJust like Fox news, the game is the most fair and balanced it's ever been. Despite my Fox news reference, I'm actually being serious. One of the things that I confused as a newbie player was believing that staff was "fucking with me" when they were actually just having the game world react realisticly. If you keep going out and "hunting" gith, don't be surprised if one day a gith runs away and comes back with three of this buddies to kill you. The same thing can be said about the people in the labyrinth. If this happens, the staff aren't picking on you. It's intelligent humanoids banding together to defend themselves from a repetitive threat. Compared to the old days, the current staff is very friendly, balanced, and usually even keeled.
Back when I was a newbie... Before the days of coded tables, the mercy command, clothing with pockets, apartments, hitched mounts, sparring weapons, crafting, foraging... and worst of all... When you logged into the game, everything that was inside your backpack started out in your inventory and you had to put it all back inside manually. What was I talking about? Oh yeah, fairness. Here's an example from about 1995 of a real bummer:
I was playing a mantis warrior and headed up to the north road to try and find a tasty snack. When along comes a silly human, I cleverly ambush him and after a long fight he flees and falls off the Shield Wall to his death. I walk all the way down to the bottom, eat his corpse, and search through my new loot. AND guess what I find? A badass steel half-sword! I'm on top of the world. I'm showing off my sword to the other PC mantis and we're all high fiving our antennas. However, a few days later, I log in and realize my steel half-sword is now a bone half-sword! Doh, I'm like WTF? So, I wish up to the staff and told them my problem. The response I got was something like, "I thought there were too many steel half-swords in the game so I changed it." I responded with something like, "But I got this killing so and so fair and square." The response was something like, "Well, you caught that guy after another big fight and he'd lost his mount and you got lucky that he fell of the Shield Wall or he would have backstabbed you to death, so just pretend it was always bone." If this happened today, you could use the request tool and file a complaint and the staff would review it. Later, you'd get a reply like this, "So and so was having a bad day because you killed his PC and he acted a little rash. Here's your steel half-sword back." Guess what I got back then?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tjkQUZ9f9gk/S9COheDfJ_I/AAAAAAAACjs/KlHKFDSDPcg/s1600/Paulson+Games+Bone+Sword.jpg)
So, what can veteran players do to help out the staff?
- Obey the rules of the game
- Send in regular, concise, and interesting character reports
- Avoid leaking IC information via OOC communication
- Contently play the deputy for someone's sheriff
- Play the most interesting player to ever lose
- Play active characters that drive plots that require little to no staff support
Here are some interesting character ideas, to me, that require little to no staff support:
- Form a gang of Allanaki thieves that travels to other cities/villages and steal things. You immediately return to Allanak and fence the goods while giving the local templar a kick back to leave your gang alone.
- Form a band of raiders in Red Storm that raid/poach in the tablelands
- Make a desert elf merchant that takes advantage of tribal neutrality to trade between Allanak and Tuluk during the war
- Form a bardic group in Allanak that rivals any in Tuluk
- Form a band of Tuluki privateers that raid Allanak as partisans of an important Tuluki noble
Thanks to everyone for making this game rock of such a long time!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/601932_533145936721148_1553954637_n.jpg)
Quote from: williamson on September 15, 2013, 03:50:22 AM
- Form a band of Tuluki privateers that raid Allanak as partisans of an important Tuluki noble
Maybe the climate is good enough to try this again. No armorer dwarves will be allowed in the gang this time.
Quote from: Molten Heart on September 15, 2013, 12:17:32 PM
Quote from: williamson on September 15, 2013, 03:50:22 AM
- Form a band of Tuluki privateers that raid Allanak as partisans of an important Tuluki noble
Maybe the climate is good enough to try this again. No armorer dwarves will be allowed in the gang this time.
I did it backwards (Allanak privateers against Tuluk) A few years ago And it was a whole lot of fun. Just remember that kick-up!
I think this thread is going exceedingly well.
You may continue...
Quote from: Kevo on September 16, 2013, 09:19:21 AM
I think this thread is going exceedingly well.
You may continue...
I feel the love because of this thread >.>
Sometimes, it isn't exactly that the staff suck or that the players suck, but that the situation just sucks no matter how you try to approach it.
I can't give IC examples, but I can create a scenario.
Player has a sponsored role PC. Player's actions go against the role and a disciplinary action must be taken by staff.
Staff options:
1.) Send a warning to player, immediately after bad actions are noticed.
2.) Wait for player to submit a character report about their actions.
a.) Respond to report with immediate disciplinary action (force store, karma reduction)
b.) Respond to report with warning of above and guidance on actions.
3.) Let player continue to make mistakes and wait for IC consequences to unfold, or animate an NPC to discipline.
4.) Add a negative account note and do nothing else.
Okay, all four have their merits. But some seem worse than others, right? (2a seems the harshest, 3 seems like the player would enjoy the most, 4 is the worst by far because the player is totally ignorant of what is happening).
BUT -- situations are RARELY this simple.
Let's say player actions are really hampering the environment for other players. Does that push the staffer towards options 1? Or 3?
Let's say the player may actually benefit from 2a the most. Certainly, in the recent past this was apparently the thought the staff had.
Let's say the player is not filing reports often or consistently. Option 2 looks bad now, yes? Now it's time to consider 1 3, or 4.
If the player's playtimes are unpredictable, option 3 is a no-go. And wording a message in option 1 is tricky...
I hope this illustrates the difficulty. Why am I making this post? No, I'm not trying to tell staff how to do their jobs. I am posting this in an attempt to grieve and understand why staff has taken certain actions against me in the past, and to try and learn from it.
The final piece of the puzzle is that often, players aren't allowed to know the full situation surrounding their PCs. In the end, we need to trust the staff.
How can staff gain player trust? By setting the envronment in advance, by informing players of their mistakes, and by being consistent with their choices and actions.
Quote from: Harmless on September 16, 2013, 01:59:06 PM
Sometimes, it isn't exactly that the staff suck or that the players suck, but that the situation just sucks no matter how you try to approach it.
I can't give IC examples, but I can create a scenario.
Player has a sponsored role PC. Player's actions go against the role and a disciplinary action must be taken by staff.
Staff options:
1.) Send a warning to player, immediately after bad actions are noticed.
This is what we usually do if it can't wait until the next report.
Quote2.) Wait for player to submit a character report about their actions.
This is a good idea too.
Quotea.) Respond to report with immediate disciplinary action (force store, karma reduction)
This rarely occurs except for special cases.
Quoteb.) Respond to report with warning of above and guidance on actions.
This is pretty normal.
Quote3.) Let player continue to make mistakes and wait for IC consequences to unfold, or animate an NPC to discipline.
This is sometimes an option, too, depending on what is going on (if it is a sponsored role though we would make the effort to explain what's up first).
Quote4.) Add a negative account note and do nothing else.
This is more rare and typically does not happen. If we're adding a negative note we are usually letting the player know.
QuoteLet's say player actions are really hampering the environment for other players. Does that push the staffer towards options 1? Or 3?
It depends on the situation, we usually engage in dialogue with the player first.
QuoteLet's say the player may actually benefit from 2a the most. Certainly, in the recent past this was apparently the thought the staff had.
Then I suppose that's the option that staff takes.
QuoteLet's say the player is not filing reports often or consistently. Option 2 looks bad now, yes? Now it's time to consider 1 3, or 4.
Correct, we would discuss with the sponsored role what's going on.
QuoteIf the player's playtimes are unpredictable, option 3 is a no-go. And wording a message in option 1 is tricky...
If the player has unpredictable playtimes, those should be communicated to staff; this is a sponsored role, after all!
QuoteI hope this illustrates the difficulty. Why am I making this post? No, I'm not trying to tell staff how to do their jobs. I am posting this in an attempt to grieve and understand why staff has taken certain actions against me in the past, and to try and learn from it.
You might want to open up with staff in dialogue if you have a question about something that was done.
Thanks for your reply, Nyr...
Yeah, I have to seriously agree with Harmless, there. Not only does the situation sometimes suck, but Nyr's elaboration of possible actions puts things into better perspective from me.
Somebody mentioned the "glass ceiling" topic to me, so I thought I'd drop by and share a thought.
The people who are saying you don't want to wind up as a senior noble or red robe templar are exactly right. It really puts you in an awkward position as a player: do you obey the social norms and have about four PCs it's acceptable to hang out with in the game, or do you get your character involved in things that should really be beneath their notice? Plus, it puts the other nobles and templars in your city in a weird spot, because socially they're supposed to be beneath you, but they probably didn't app for a leadership role just so they could get bossed around by some other PC who's been around longer. The game is (or at least was) designed around some social checks and balances that break down if characters advance too far unchecked.
That's not saying I'm not all in favor of long-lived PCs in those roles, it's just the staff has to get creative with the perks you can earn (and it sounds like they have?) Nothing says junior nobles can't earn more money for doing good by their House, or that there's only so many perks that Tek will ever give a blue robe. If you aim to advance in those kinds of directions, "outward" instead of upward, I think you probably won't run into the issue of cutting off opportunities, both for yourself and others.
Don't get me wrong, I loooooved my templar. It's just looking back I think I would have loved him just as much if his robe was blue instead of red. Maybe the final "end game" for a PC in those types of roles could be to do something Really Cool, and go down in history or get something named after you or see a bit of lore you'd never otherwise see... but then get promoted and stored off right after.
<3 and bye again.
Quote from: ale six on September 17, 2013, 12:11:11 AM
Maybe the final "end game" for a PC in those types of roles could be to do something Really Cool, and go down in history or get something named after you or see a bit of lore you'd never otherwise see... but then get promoted and stored off right after.
Now that. That right there is an idea. A good idea. It sucks to live long enough to get stored (I haven't so I can only imagine - I always die sooner or later), but it would absolutely rock to go out as ale suggests.
Quote from: Nyr on September 16, 2013, 02:07:34 PM
You might want to open up with staff in dialogue if you have a question about something that was done.
Nyr: I took your suggestion, and got some useful clarifications that helped me to turn the page and move on from what happened. So, thanks for personally recommending that I send another request. I'm glad I did.
Ah! Now I really want to play this game some more...
And now I feel tha lurve. :)
Edit: to reply to ale six and 7deadly: How our characters "go out" is
EXTREMELY important to us players. It is, in a way, everything, because they all go out sometime and that is the first thing we'll recall when we think back on them.
So, I like that staff are accommodating to our thoughts and requests on our losses. Not once, but twice, a staffer has written very thoughtful, detailed replies to requests I sent in that can be summed up as, "I died or was stored and I am unhappy about it." So staff get this, and help us novices move on when needed.
The sting and pain of permadeath are balanced by some very thoughtful messages from staff when needed, in my experience.
Quote from: Harmless on September 17, 2013, 10:43:40 AM
The sting and pain of permadeath are balanced by some very thoughtful messages from staff when needed, in my experience.
This.
When my first long-lived character died (in a horribly stupid way that was entirely my own fault) I sat there staring at the screen, half in shock and half about to freak out. My phone 'dinged' immediately after I got the mantis head and I knew it was that awful generic email that says "Hey, sorry you died! Please play again!"...you know, the one that's like salt being rubbed in an open wound, the one that makes you feel like someone's kicking you when you're already down?
But then, not long after that initial email, my phone dinged again. I had just sent in a character report a day or two before and this second email was from staff saying something along the lines of "Hey, I just noticed that your PC died! Can you let me know what happened?"
It was a little thing, but it was nice to feel like someone had noticed and was going to give me a chance to vent/explain. Even though it wasn't a response to a request that was questioning the circumstances surrounding my PCs death, it was still nice to know that someone was willing to listen to how the whole thing unfolded.
I'd never thought of that farewell death email as salt in the wound. That's exactly how it feels. Thanks manipura.
Maybe it should not come for 24hrs?
I am feeling the love. Armageddon feels more 'alive' now that ever before, IMO. I like Armageddon because I come here to see and have awful things happen to me, and be done by me. I like when my characters are vulnerable and someone kicks them when they are down. It just makes revenge all the tastier when the meal arrives.
Hate, hate, hate. Treachery, treachery, treachery.
I love this game.
I really like how karma doesn't steal all the cool stuff and make it unreachable; it is perfectly reachable; so if you don't particularly want karma but you want magick, sorcery, muls and psions, you don't ever have to think about karma ever again, and just go play where the crazy is and get yourself involved.
One thing I would fix would be an ability to replay to closed requests so I can tell whoever it was that replied to my last request that they are a damn genius.
A game that allows you to play out the fantasy of being a dwarf who will do anything to anyone and their mother in order to get a full-body suit of human skin is a winner in my book.
Quote from: Harmless on September 17, 2013, 10:43:40 AM
The sting and pain of permadeath are balanced by some very thoughtful messages from staff when needed, in my experience.
My favorite from-staff message came after the death of a beloved PC of mine during an HRPT. It was basically "lol, I killed you pretty good right there" and "you'll never have a PC that awesome again!" It was a nice capstone to a good run. Then again, I practically cheered when that PC died since I couldn't have hoped for a better way to go. The personal touch is definitely appreciated, though I do like the automated response as well. I don't know, I feel like it adds some dark humor to the whole thing. I think it's definitely better than nothing.
I just remind myself that every ending is a new beginning, but then again I'm practically a serial PC storer, so maybe I'm just used to it.
I love everything (except them fucking too-lucks).
same
Quote from: Zoltan on September 20, 2013, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: Harmless on September 17, 2013, 10:43:40 AM
The sting and pain of permadeath are balanced by some very thoughtful messages from staff when needed, in my experience.
My favorite from-staff message came after the death of a beloved PC of mine during an HRPT. It was basically "lol, I killed you pretty good right there" and "you'll never have a PC that awesome again!" It was a nice capstone to a good run. Then again, I practically cheered when that PC died since I couldn't have hoped for a better way to go. The personal touch is definitely appreciated, though I do like the automated response as well. I don't know, I feel like it adds some dark humor to the whole thing. I think it's definitely better than nothing.
I just remind myself that every ending is a new beginning, but then again I'm practically a serial PC storer, so maybe I'm just used to it.
Quote from: StaffYour Character Report request has been resolved. I was gonna comment on this in full, but then, uh. Well. Yeah.
Quote from: Morrolan on September 20, 2013, 05:33:53 PMQuote from: StaffYour Character Report request has been resolved. I was gonna comment on this in full, but then, uh. Well. Yeah.
I now fear sending character reports for this reason.
:Notes
"Tonto is the name of the lone ranger's indian cohort"
I remember when, on these very boards, Italis made this comment after one of my characters died:
Don't rejoice, Saellyn might end up in your clan next.
A normal person might have taken this as a slap to the face because it implied a character was terrible. I thought it was a hilarious comment that merely suggested when I brought the pain, I BROUGHT THE PAIN, and I brought a healthy (sometimes unhealthy) dose of mischief with me wherever I went.
I think I've toned down a... lot. After my hiatus, I stopped giving a damn about karma. Returning, now? I just kind of want to play and see how the world turns for me.
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 12, 2013, 08:34:03 AM
Returning, now? I just kind of want to play and see how the world turns for me.
Ahhh..... mon mal petit chou...
Now I feel the love.
I definitely feel staff have been rather patient, understanding and tolerant of me, as well as many of the players... That said, will I ever get a point of karma? Probably not. If I get that point, what are the chances of it being stripped away in a week? I don't know, reading the rules, I think pretty high.
I have started sending in character reports, just the act of typing them up helps me to understand the character I'm playing a bit better. Maybe I don't send them in as regularly as I should, but I feel it has been an exercise that has allowed me to get deeper into my character, as well as provide the staff with some idea why X did Y, or didn't do, as I'm just getting used to using the think command, I'm pretty sure my characters can be a bit baffling from the outside.
Staff have been good about responding to my reports, and encouraging me to write more of them. I've not once gotten a reply that made me think "well, f--- you too". Speaking of rubbing the salt in the wound, Nyr resolved a description change request of mine, after one of them, one I was really enjoying playing, with the message:
QuoteYour Description Change request has been resolved.
Unfortunately, resolved by the death of your PC. :(
Good luck with your current one,
I seriously had a good, long laugh at that, I don't know why, maybe it was the frowny face, but I found it hilarious. Really made my day and helped me get over the loss, no sarcasm.
I once received kudos from someone who indirectly killed one of my earlier characters. It completely wiped the rage I felt away. Was I mad at the player? No, was mad that I lost my character. Did I drink too much and send emails I probably shouldn't have? Yes, because it was like someone just murdered a good friend of mine and I skipped a few steps and went straight to a maddening fury. But I still play my next character as if they knew nothing of the previous one. (I don't think posting this violates any rules because it's very, very vague)
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for providing such a wonderful place to play around in. I never, ever thought I'd get into RP, but was willing to give it a shot, and I'm very glad I did.
I've always had so much respect for the staff here and am in love with the posters on the GDB. I played a game for years that was stagnant and full of rampant favoritism, staff changes and pure vitriol. As a player, you could never change the world, not even a little bit.
I came here and found acceptance and a great community on the GDB. If you ever need to realize how good we've got it here, I dare you to try another RPI, or hell, any text game claiming to be RP based. You will realize the staff and players here are a thousands times more amazing than anything else you'll find in online MUD gaming.
So, yes. I feel the love! All the love.
Oh, on the GDB, very rarely feel the love I do in game... Think somehow people go to great lengths to make things sound much more harsh than they really are, and make themselves seem more mean... I know you're all a bunch of phonies, I still love you, though.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 12, 2013, 03:46:39 PM
That said, will I ever get a point of karma? Probably not. If I get that point, what are the chances of it being stripped away in a week? I don't know, reading the rules, I think pretty high.
Don't sweat it, karma is nowhere near this kind of mortal struggle. In fact, there are a standardized list of criteria, one of which is player longevity, meaning if you can play for I think 6 months, maybe a year, without trying to hack the MUD or making some other egregious error, you're guaranteed 1 point. Your GDB account was created almost 6 months ago, maybe you should try submitting an account notes request. That comes with an automatic review of your karma level.
I am, quiet frankly, terrified to request account notes, because that could seriously go wrong, and I'm not sure I want to read everything I might get in return... It's only been almost six months? It feels like a lot longer than that. Oh, that's my GDB account, I didn't sign up when I first started playing.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 14, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
I am, quiet frankly, terrified to request account notes, because that could seriously go wrong, and I'm not sure I want to read everything I might get in return... It's only been almost six months? It feels like a lot longer than that. Oh, that's my GDB account, I didn't sign up when I first started playing.
Staff don't make negative account notes before contacting you about the issue first. I think you'll be fine.
Oh? I've received very few of those, and they weren't very harshly worded. I might have to look into that. I think I've received much more positive than negative feedback, maybe I should wait a short while before requesting, still. Maybe squeeze more out of that six month window.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 14, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
I am, quiet frankly, terrified to request account notes, because that could seriously go wrong, and I'm not sure I want to read everything I might get in return... It's only been almost six months? It feels like a lot longer than that. Oh, that's my GDB account, I didn't sign up when I first started playing.
You likely are going to be surprised at just how little you notes will have in them. But it's a good way to get staff to do a Karma review.
Patuk is right, but even if he wasn't you still shouldn't be afraid. If you are making mistakes and don't know about them how could you ever fix them?
I am by no means a veteran. I have played on and off for a year or so as time has allowed, and have gotten a couple account notes both positive and ambiguously neutral/negative. Firstly, let me establish I appreciate the karma system. I have no business playing a templar in Tuluk, largely due to the fact that I have experienced most of my gameplay in 'Nak. However, if I were a veteran player, I would find it annoying that I would not have access to, say, a wind or void mage. After all, what is karma a measure of? My roleplaying capacity? My contributions to the game? Trust that I won't exploit the roles? Fundamentally, is karma not the staff's way of saying "We trust you'll contribute to the game with access to this."? I dunno, it seems silly to me that there would be players who have a firm grasp of 'gicker culture, and had a few water and earth notches under their belt, but they're denied access to wind. I don't ask for a perfect system, but I WILL say that karma has, as a new player, been harder to accrue than I had expected, and sometimes I feel like I'm making something that I think will get me karma so I can play something I'm actually interested in at the moment. This is detrimental to my roleplay, and I sometimes feel like I'm just going through the motions. Now, if I had been in this rat race for years? I'd feel pretty unsatisfied with staff, even if it was simply something they overlooked. I'm certain little malice goes into denying roles, but it seems a common sentiment, even among vets, that we feel like adults whose mother keeps slapping their hands away from the cookie jar. As for me, I guess I have to play a few more rangers before they decide I'm ready for that gemmed Rukkian learning experience. :D
I don't think you ought to make acquiring karma the goal for any concept you play. Just play roles that are fun or satisfying to you, and help out the RP of the people you're around. Karma will come, or it won't. But you'll be having a good time no matter what.
I understand what you mean with the cookie jar analogy, I've felt that way myself. But on the other hand, you know players you wouldn't want to be playing with the power of a wind witch! (Some of them shouldn't be playing with the power of backstab, lol, judging by the dead NPCs laying around busy streets sometimes) And I'm glad, when I think about that, that staff is careful about handing out karma.
1 karma is enough karma anyway, as you can special app up to things that cost 4, and that includes a lot of the juiciest stuff.
If you're interested in playing magickers that cost 4 karma or more, you really should be sure to get practice with the 2 karma costing magickers first; they are kind of the "step up" to the others. There is much less social stigma against them (that's a HUGE, HUGE generalization, take it with a pinch of salt) but in general they are more "surviveable."
You can probably qualify to get 1 karma already. If you've been playing for 6 months or more at least, and have played at least one character to a decent age, then go ahead and consider putting in an "account notes request" and see what happens. ;)
Quote from: Asche on November 18, 2013, 12:59:53 PM
I am by no means a veteran. I have played on and off for a year or so as time has allowed, and have gotten a couple account notes both positive and ambiguously neutral/negative. Firstly, let me establish I appreciate the karma system. I have no business playing a templar in Tuluk, largely due to the fact that I have experienced most of my gameplay in 'Nak. However, if I were a veteran player, I would find it annoying that I would not have access to, say, a wind or void mage. After all, what is karma a measure of? My roleplaying capacity? My contributions to the game? Trust that I won't exploit the roles? Fundamentally, is karma not the staff's way of saying "We trust you'll contribute to the game with access to this."? I dunno, it seems silly to me that there would be players who have a firm grasp of 'gicker culture, and had a few water and earth notches under their belt, but they're denied access to wind. I don't ask for a perfect system, but I WILL say that karma has, as a new player, been harder to accrue than I had expected, and sometimes I feel like I'm making something that I think will get me karma so I can play something I'm actually interested in at the moment. This is detrimental to my roleplay, and I sometimes feel like I'm just going through the motions. Now, if I had been in this rat race for years? I'd feel pretty unsatisfied with staff, even if it was simply something they overlooked. I'm certain little malice goes into denying roles, but it seems a common sentiment, even among vets, that we feel like adults whose mother keeps slapping their hands away from the cookie jar. As for me, I guess I have to play a few more rangers before they decide I'm ready for that gemmed Rukkian learning experience. :D
I don't know about the void mages, but wind mages were actually moved up the karma chain because of abuse problems. So with Whirans the choice for what karma they take to play was based on empirical data.
Quote from: Patuk on October 14, 2013, 12:55:56 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 14, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
I am, quiet frankly, terrified to request account notes, because that could seriously go wrong, and I'm not sure I want to read everything I might get in return... It's only been almost six months? It feels like a lot longer than that. Oh, that's my GDB account, I didn't sign up when I first started playing.
Staff don't make negative account notes before contacting you about the issue first.
That is bullshit and just really pissed me off so I'll stick with "That is bullshit".
Yeah not true.
It's actually policy to do it that way. If it wasn't done that way it was a long time ago or it was an oversight.
Staff has actually made it more clear over the years when it comes to how exactly you earn karma. There are categories through which a player earns karma by demonstrating achievements in the particular categories:
Longevity
Good communication
Ability to roleplay
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
Contributes to the game
Leadership
So if anything, it's actually become slightly easier to earn karma by demonstrating these things in-game (and with regards to communication, in requests as well).
That's not to say you should set out to play a character specifically to earn a point in "understanding magick and its place in the game world". Instead, play an Allanaki who is cautiously uneasy around gemmed, or a Tuluki who fears or hates mages. And so on for the other categories. It basically adds up to this: play by the documentation, and get involved with other players, which is actually pretty easy as it's the point of the game. :)
You should also consider character reports. The reports are an extra effort and not required, but they definitely draw a bit more attention to your character, and a monthly report can be enough and doesn't take too much time to write. (You could go with a report every two weeks if your character is especially involved, but a good rule of thumb is to not send reports more often than that unless it's required for your role). And it's generally okay to ask for bits of advice or a "how am I doing?" sort of question every once in a while, as generally staff will give you a few tips and steer you in the right direction and give words of encouragement.
Quote from: Nyr on November 18, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
It's actually policy to do it that way. If it wasn't done that way it was a long time ago or it was an oversight.
Is it? I'll be sending in a request about this then to spare the masses.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 18, 2013, 05:57:58 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 18, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
It's actually policy to do it that way. If it wasn't done that way it was a long time ago or it was an oversight.
Is it? I'll be sending in a request about this then to spare the masses.
Since a very long time, yes. As I said, if it wasn't done that way, it was a long time ago, or it was an oversight.
Quote from: ashyom on August 20, 2006, 07:22:06 PM
Generally, staff try to let players know when they've received a negative note, yes. Sometimes we forget or are in a hurry. Human and all that.
If you're curious, feel free to request your account notes, but do keep in mind that we prefer that you don't request it more than 2 or 3x a year.
Ashyom
From this very thread:
Quote from: Nyr on September 16, 2013, 02:07:34 PM
Quote from: Harmless on September 16, 2013, 01:59:06 PM4.) Add a negative account note and do nothing else.
This is more rare and typically does not happen. If we're adding a negative note we are usually letting the player know.
A thread on the entirety of notes:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,36715.0.html
So yes, that's the way it should be, though it doesn't always end up that way.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 18, 2013, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: Patuk on October 14, 2013, 12:55:56 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 14, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
I am, quiet frankly, terrified to request account notes, because that could seriously go wrong, and I'm not sure I want to read everything I might get in return... It's only been almost six months? It feels like a lot longer than that. Oh, that's my GDB account, I didn't sign up when I first started playing.
Staff don't make negative account notes before contacting you about the issue first.
That is bullshit and just really pissed me off so I'll stick with "That is bullshit".
I dunno. The one time (never again!) that I requested notes every negative comment I read produced a reaction of "Oh, yeah. That's true, I remember getting an email about that."
The reason I dont' request any more is because I hate to be reminded of the cheap, sloppy play that I've engaged in years before. I try to do better. One day, even, maybe I'll ap another Templar! =)
I've had awesome interactions and I've had shitty interactions whether in-game or through e-mail/requests. Imms are human and some can be plain old dicks while others are incredibly awesome and motivating. I say just play your game and you'll find who, where, and what makes you happy in this game. Afterall I know plenty of players the imms probably think are dicks, maybe even me. :) Cheers. I still love all of you (even if you're a meanie head).
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 18, 2013, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: Patuk on October 14, 2013, 12:55:56 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 14, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
I am, quiet frankly, terrified to request account notes, because that could seriously go wrong, and I'm not sure I want to read everything I might get in return... It's only been almost six months? It feels like a lot longer than that. Oh, that's my GDB account, I didn't sign up when I first started playing.
Staff don't make negative account notes before contacting you about the issue first.
That is bullshit and just really pissed me off so I'll stick with "That is bullshit".
I was heartened by Nyr's reply, then disheartened. If ShaLeah is like me, the important distinction is "before". That is, do staff talk to you about the incident beforehand, and based on that, make the note (which is how I interpreted the bold part as saying, and then Nyr agreeing to). Or do they make the note then notify you about it (which seems to be what the quotes that Nyr provided refer to).
As a player, there is a huge difference. There has been a few times when reading my notes (typically a year or more later) when I really wish there had been a discussion upfront, as it was obvious that something was observed then noted without context. And then there were the ones that were dead on :)
Easily avoided by doing character reports. The way I've seen it unless it's a glaring issue, staff will put as much effort into discussing things with you as you will with them. If you don't care enough report and open that dialog with them, why blame them for doing the same?
I also think people take neutral advice/observations and treat it as hostile or offensive account notes. I know I have before.
Because you don't know there is an issue to discuss in the first place?
That said, I wish I had been doing character reports years before I started, it probably could have avoided some (bad) things. Process can create mindset though, so I was just pointing out what had been said was not necessarily the same as what was quoted to back up that it was already that way.
Back on topic, I always feel the love from Nautious in every single report, even when he is bitchslapping me. He's an artist.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 18, 2013, 08:22:31 PM
Back on topic, I always feel the love from Nautious in every single report, even when he is bitchslapping me. He's an artist.
I do have me a Natty-Ice crush.
Account notes, especially PC specific information is by no means the be all end all. We have made mistakes, we will reverse notes. We will add account information about how a player has improved , especially with a poor, colorful past. Most notes we make with other Staff in mind, not the player themselves. This doesn't excuse making needlessly negative comments, and we have curbed this significantly even in the last year.
When I was a player, I was convinced Nessalin had a vendetta against me. I could swear every negative action taken against me by Staff was somehow his doing or influenced by his opinion of me. This view is ultimately narcissistic -- when I came upstairs, Nessalin had no such grudge. On Staff, we devote as much time as possible to catering to the player base. We want you guys to have fun. We have our opinions and that is natural. We want you to play to documentation. We are not out to get you. If you think notes on your account are undeserved and have prevented you from getting a role or something, let's talk about it. Otherwise, I would recommend not taking the narcissistic route.
Just wanted to clarify in case I was unclear. I'm not making characters just to accrue karma. I'm making characters who are far lower on my totem pole for what I'd like to try than, say, the earth mage I've been wanting to play for months, or the water mage I'm thinking about now. Actually, in regards to mages, those are the elements I'm most interested in playing. I've invested a fair amount of time studying the docs (possibly more than I've played, really) and I'd like to believe I have a fair understanding of 'Nak, at the very least. Hell, in the time I've played, I've helped gem a couple mages, helped execute an elf in the Gaj, I've done a little work for merchant Houses and I've been killed by players. I've also had my character suddenly killed by a wandering creature, like so many of the other players.
I'd like to think I'm ready to begin biting into Arm, rather than just tasting, but most of the responses to my requests for account notes and special apps have been met with "You just haven't played enough." Which is certainly true for some of them. But, while my characters don't live long, I die learning new things like everyone else. I'll be honest, it made me want to stop playing for a while when my last special app was denied. I just got burnt out, and honestly a little frustrated, because I had really connected to those characters for the short time they were around, but it seemed like no one really noticed them. Which, given the size of the playerbase and the time invested by the staff, is certainly a petty thing to complain about. But I was genuinely saddened when all my assassin got for her account notes were: "Doesn't follow the schedule for sparring." It implied someone had been watching me, and they were thoroughly non-plussed. I recognize its petty, but if I'm being honest, it made me tired of Arm for a good bit. I'm only just coming back, and having a blast, but I'm not sure what I need to do for a bit of trust or recognition of my attempts to contribute. Anyways, this is a long, rambling post, but the answer to "Do I feel the love?" is "I recognize a lot of love and effort goes into this game."
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 18, 2013, 08:22:31 PM
Back on topic, I always feel the love from Nautious in every single report, even when he is bitchslapping me. He's an artist.
This is true. No offense to any other imms, but Natious has >skill Report replying (Master). I always get a kick out of responses.
Taijan is the best report answerer ever. If you're ever not sure what you want to do with yourself, go hang with Taijan. Taijan is awesome. Complete awesome.
Staff opinion of players, karma, and all that all come down to human interactions, limited severely by a text based environment and interpretation of a very complex setting.
However, based on my experience over the past several years, there is nothing wrong with trying to gain karma by playing specific roles. I would consider special apping a magicker. I would look into leadership, especially if gained from the ground up. These are direct ways to demonstrate your knowledge of the setting, and are far more effectice than a passive approach.
Quote from: Harmless on November 19, 2013, 08:48:45 AM
Staff opinion of players, karma, and all that all come down to human interactions, limited severely by a text based environment and interpretation of a very complex setting.
However, based on my experience over the past several years, there is nothing wrong with trying to gain karma by playing specific roles. I would consider special apping a magicker. I would look into leadership, especially if gained from the ground up. These are direct ways to demonstrate your knowledge of the setting, and are far more effectice than a passive approach.
I fully endorse this.
Special apped a magicker about a day ago. Now its just a matter of nervous waiting. >> Time to refresh my request page every other hour!
Quote from: Asche on November 30, 2013, 09:11:12 AM
Special apped a magicker about a day ago. Now its just a matter of nervous waiting. >> Time to refresh my request page every other hour!
Special apps can take a LONG time to get approved. Anywhere from a few days, to a few months. If you're wanting to play Arm, don't "not play" while you wait for your special app to be approved. If you are character-less presently, you *can* app a regular non-special character now, even if you have a special app in the queue. And if it gets approved, you can still play your current character as long as you'd like, and play that approved special app character at your convenience.
Totally feeling the love. My current clan imm has been very helpful and supportive - and patient with my ridiculous questions. :P
I've had such good experience with staff. Except that they keep leaving. I am almost positive this is not because of me though.
Been feeling increased levels of love lately, and also have been mellowing out in general. And, as always, in learning about the incredible variety of roles that can be enjoyed here, I am discovering more things that I enjoy playing and also others I will do differently next time.
Currently, all I feel about the MUD and staff is fully positive. I am also really appreciating Nyr's wisdom in particular, though I am also a little scared by it...
Old new player returning here. I have always felt that the staff and players were cool. Problem children were dealt with promptly. My last major player was during the Rebellion (how's that for aging). Since then my playing has been sporadic but I have spurts of time to burn (thanks to the end of the year use it or lose it vacation time and other matters). I feel comfortable devoting time to developing a character. In that process, I am not seeking praise from the staff so much as opportunities to develop my character, good or bad. The environment has been great for doing that and I see the staff in that role of which I am grateful. Gone are the days of rampages of pk twinkish muls (yay!) that lurk hidden outside of gates to toss bolos at you #vent. I'm trying to relearn the game in general and it's been an addicting, steep learning curve. My standard: 'run like a tregil from EVERYTHING'tm that looks remotely dangerous works for me! I apologize for any staff watching me wonder wth I am doing (reading help files, trying to figure out a syntax, trying to relearn the emote structure, misspellings abound).
Back in my reckless youth, I saw playing a magic character as disposable character and played kind of fast and loose with them. My appeal for them has since waned and I like my mundanes. I might be ambitious and play a Southerner maybe...
Welcome back DxGrief. It's always nice to see new players join and veteran players return. :)
Character reports and longevity. I burned through over thirty characters, none of whom lasted more than 5-10 days played, before I cracked a monster long-lived PC and begin to grow from there. I've always felt very comfortable with the staff, (even when my PC was being a dick) and in one particular respect they -really- engaged with me and did some stuff I still rank as the best interactions I've ever had on a MUD.
Do I feel the love? Yes and no. From other players, to the in-game world, it's amazing. I love it. Staff, its also a yes and no. Sometimes staff are awesome, sometimes you want to stick 'em with a knife, it's just how it goes. Also, when reading through account notes,
I often feel like slapping myself for past noobish actions, though even when you try, and do improve greatly, reading through account notes makes my morale feel completely crushed.
Quote from: Doublepalli on January 13, 2014, 06:08:17 PM
Do I feel the love? Yes and no. From other players, to the in-game world, it's amazing. I love it. Staff, its also a yes and no. Sometimes staff are awesome, sometimes you want to stick 'em with a knife, it's just how it goes. Also, when reading through account notes,
I often feel like slapping myself for past noobish actions, though even when you try, and do improve greatly, reading through account notes makes my morale feel completely crushed.
I -do- sometimes wish there was a limitation on how old your negative account notes could be. I'm saying like, after five years, if your notes have been neutral or good, maybe just remove the "nailed furniture to the ceilings of every tenement he lived in" because you obviously learned your lesson. Its not that I don't trust staff to take current and relatively current behavior into account, but DAMN is it demoralizing to see that a long time ago, someone who had the power to affect future applications didn't like you.
That said, while I've had less time to play lately, and I don't necessarily feel the "love", I do think things are taking a turn for the positive. It feels like staff are saying no to my mastercrafted argosy manned by flying kryl, so I can ride from Tuluk to Red Storm in under an hour.... but at least they're saying no poilitely!
If you can understand why something is a bad note and have truly improved beyond that point, I'd say throw your concerns to the wind and laugh at it. We're not rubbing your face in what you did. It's just part of the record. Enjoy it and embrace it and learn to laugh at your past mistakes, especially if it was "nailing stuff to the ceiling," which is pretty funny (and if it wasn't yesterday it probably isn't keeping you back from any roles).
I feel like I learned from alot of my mistakes but it always hurts when I did my best in a character role then see alot of negative and never any positive. I learned my lesson and always wish up before a possible PK and I always wish up if something crazy might be about to happen just so staff don't get hind sight and complaints from 2 very biased points of view. But I guess it just seems grudges get held sometimes.
EDIT:I don't think NOW that staff hold grudges but it felt that way in the past
Eh. The topic question is not really a black and white one, to me. I feel frustration at (what I see as) a largely stagnant-by-design game world, but it's not like I have some ever-changing, multiplayer, immersive-RP game to compare Arm to in regards to this flaw perceived flaw. Hell, there's hardly an immersive roleplaying experience (in a format that suits me) to be had on the internet aside from this, as far as my searching has turned up. And I do certainly 'feel the love' when I am involved in all the delightful roleplay I've been involved in with you great people! I just wish I felt like said roleplay was a meaningful part in a bigger picture, I suppose, and I try to see that it is, but often find myself with lingering doubts...
Either way, Armageddon be a harsh mistress, so I'm here, love or no love. ;)
I do. More and more all the time. Weird. Since coming back this time clan staff has be like dream staff. My reports are read. They say yes when they can. When they say no, I feel like the request was considered.
There isn't much being done to retain veteran players, at all. IMO
Quote from: Majikal on January 23, 2014, 09:09:41 PM
There isn't much being done to retain veteran players, at all. IMO
Just curious -- what do you think should be done?
I dunno, maybe make the known a place where you can have an impact. As it is you have a mountain of vNPCs that will never be moved except as directed to, and seldom are they directed to move in positive ways, like getting a job and contributing to society.
It sort of absurd to expect the relatively small staff to make personalized story interactions/animations for each and every long-time player. The workload behind doing that, as well as all the things they already do, would be astronomical. Especially when the players themselves are, 99 time out of 100, unwilling to put the same amount of work in.
Kind of a rant here.
Armageddon is what you make it. You get out what you put in, 99 percent of the time. Focus on retaining yourself and your own enjoyment by being original and creative, rather than expecting staff to do that for you.
If you made a compelling, vibrant character, you don't think you'd be entertained when you log in?
Not every PC I make hits that mark, but with some, I had a great time simply seeing what happened to them, without needing any staff interaction.
Are these people who need staff to entertain them making generic hunter #28275 and then saying "this game sucks" once they get bored of collecting gurth shells? Was the ultimate goal of their play building a wagon or a tavern, and, when they're unable to get it, they feel deeply wronged?
I don't get it. Stretch your comfort zone, make an awesome PC and you won't care about any of that shit. If you make the same character you always play, you're going to be bored.
There's a saying - boring people get bored. Make your own fun by being fun and the game will be good to you. People spend too much time looking to others to be some magical source of entertainment, and not enough time looking to themselves.
Reminds me of a teenager surrounded by games, electronics, books, sports, and friends, who says "there isn't anything to doooooooo!"
Remember when you were a kid and you could have amazing adventures with a stick, or a rock, and some imagination. That's the mindset you need to bring to the game.
I don't know where the narrative that Armageddon is stagnant and unchangeable comes from. It is something that is brought up time and time again on the GDB, sometimes even when something in the game was just changed by a player (or more correctly, a group of players), making that argument even stranger to see.
It would be more correct to say that it is hard to change the game, and it is. The simplest change you can make to the game is a mastercraft, and that takes getting a craft skill to master, something that is pretty hard to do. The hardest are large-scale social or building changes to cities, which (for the most part) is arranged by sponsored roles (there have been exceptions) and people associated with those PCs tag along and help out with the overall plot (again, with some exceptions).
It's not even about workload - staff, if anything, prioritizes this kind of work to the extent that they are willing to work with PCs with the ability to put these changes into motion. PCs without this ability have the next-best thing - the ability to tag along for the ride. This is basically a big reason for the existence of leader PCs, especially sponsored ones but also potentially PCs who work their way to a topmost point - to serve as an interface between staff and other PCs for running big plots.
There are various bigger changes that have happened in the game that are demonstrably the work of PCs. I'm sorry if you personally haven't been at least partly the cause of these bigger changes but there are ways to get involved in them. Since they don't happen too often, and require a bit of trust and being somewhat established, my tip is to just play longer-lived (doesn't have to be too long, but let's face it, a two-week ranger who dies outside the walls to a scrab/carru ain't changin' nothin') characters who ideally work closely with a clan, and/or join one completely.
I'm head scratching here, because extended subguilds/starting skill boosts have in my opinion been a huge, popular change that benefits veteran players. Also, the huge increase in staff communication, transparency, responsiveness (see various changes and change-discussion threads, and the resulting changes to the changes; also see prompt and thorough responses to character reports and individual concerns, this has been all of my staffers lately, including indie staffers) has at least as far as I've seen led to a lot less disillusionment and frustration. Which are more likely to knock off veteran players than newer players.
The single major thing that would improve my experience as a veteran player would be if only staff could come up with some way for me to play the game more now that I have a spouse, a house, a full time job, and a real life. Alas, that's entirely in my control.
I'm sad to hear that Majikal isn't enjoying the game more. I remember playing in a clan with him about 5 years ago. Still one of my favorite people to rp with. Great pcs and great energy. But I think it's like anything. Sometimes, in this small sandbox we get some friction - get on each other's nerves and have some disappointments. I've quit three times so far for about a year each time. Ups and downs. So, hopefully things will turn around.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 24, 2014, 06:18:52 AM
I don't know where the narrative that Armageddon is stagnant and unchangeable comes from...
Than I'll elaborate a bit, since I think this was at least partially directed towards my comment...
There is a lot to say, and much that I can't without getting into IC details that are inappropriate for the boards, but I suppose my biggest gripe is the restriction that makes it so players are only allowed to reach 'middle-management' levels, as it were, of any given clan. Rather than only being a detriment on the ambitions of the Templars/Nobles/Officers/Merchants/etc. in question, I think this has a detrimental effect on the gameworld as a whole. Because the majority of these organizations' power is made virtual by this policy, there is no way for it to significantly increase or, probably more importantly, decrease because of player action. Consequently, we have organizations that are powerful only because people say so, and nothing can be done to impact their stature in the world, unless it is through actions of the staff-controlled higher-ups of other clans.
Also, I -have- played characters in the mold of what your last paragraph describes, and it's these more than any others that have given me this view. Again, I can't say much without going into IC details, but (and this is said with nothing but love for the players whose characters were in place to take me 'along for the ride,' as you say) every plot I was involved in had been rendered 100% inconsequential in the space of...about a week after said character's death? I include in this having a minor role (at the time) in a clan heavily involved in the last HRPT and the events around it, which I think I am right in believing would have played out entirely the same if the vast majority of players present, including myself, were not involved.
Don't really buy the whole 'join a clan as a prerequisite to change the world' argument, either. Sure, they absolutely should be good ways to acquire influence, but having them as the -only- means to do so, when all clans answer to and have to keep their goals in line with a power structure that is not made up of PC's, makes organic, player-inspired change seem even less likely to occur, in my view.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on January 24, 2014, 03:36:04 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 24, 2014, 06:18:52 AM
I don't know where the narrative that Armageddon is stagnant and unchangeable comes from...
Than I'll elaborate a bit, since I think this was at least partially directed towards my comment...
There is a lot to say, and much that I can't without getting into IC details that are inappropriate for the boards, but I suppose my biggest gripe is the restriction that makes it so players are only allowed to reach 'middle-management' levels, as it were, of any given clan. Rather than only being a detriment on the ambitions of the Templars/Nobles/Officers/Merchants/etc. in question, I think this has a detrimental effect on the gameworld as a whole. Because the majority of these organizations' power is made virtual by this policy, there is no way for it to significantly increase or, probably more importantly, decrease because of player action. Consequently, we have organizations that are powerful only because people say so, and nothing can be done to impact their stature in the world, unless it is through actions of the staff-controlled higher-ups of other clans.
I can sympathize with that - the glass ceiling that exists for higher-tier promotions is frustrating, but I can also see how it makes sense from a purely OOC, game design perspective, in that PCs that are too socially powerful would not be able to feasibly interact with a majority of players ICly (for example, a senior noble or red-robed templar has no IC reason to visit the tavern and chum it up with lesser nobles). It also helps keep a bit of balance between clans, since no one clan will have a member or a leader who is officially significantly higher-ranked than another clan or leader. That helps make conflict more protracted, instead of Senior Noble PC from House A crushing Junior Noble PC from House B repeatedly.
The best solution to this problem is for staff to introduce more ICly feasible ranks and positions that are between the top-level of what PCs can currently reach, and the ranks that are currently out of reach, and make those new ranks within reach and make sense for a PC to hold without throwing off that balance.
QuoteAlso, I -have- played characters in the mold of what your last paragraph describes, and it's these more than any others that have given me this view. Again, I can't say much without going into IC details, but (and this is said with nothing but love for the players whose characters were in place to take me 'along for the ride,' as you say) every plot I was involved in had been rendered 100% inconsequential in the space of...about a week after said character's death? I include in this having a minor role (at the time) in a clan heavily involved in the last HRPT and the events around it, which I think I am right in believing would have played out entirely the same if the vast majority of players present, including myself, were not involved.
Don't really buy the whole 'join a clan as a prerequisite to change the world' argument, either. Sure, they absolutely should be good ways to acquire influence, but having them as the -only- means to do so, when all clans answer to and have to keep their goals in line with a power structure that is not made up of PC's, makes organic, player-inspired change seem even less likely to occur, in my view.
I wouldn't have made the argument if it's not been demonstrated IG. Like I said, there are exceptions, but being in a clan makes it significantly more likely that you will be, or be underneath, someone with an interesting plot, simply because that influence makes it more likely to make that plot possible. And those PCs will have the rank to do such things and/or the approval from those that are currently vNPC and NPC heads of clans, so long as the goal is reasonable. You can't do
everything, but that does help maintain some semblance of that balance I mentioned. For better or worse, the game's social structure in both cities is designed to keep indies down. It is meant to be extremely hard for an indie to get influence and extremely easy for a clanned person to get it.
Eh. Well, I guess since we are unable to bring specifics into either of our arguments, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Maybe there are plenty of player-made changes going on in the game presently and I am just not seeing any of them, and maybe one day my cynical and pessimistic soul will be lifted by something that happens to one of my characters. But than, if the changes are only there to be had for incredibly well-established, connected players, that doesn't seem to do much for the much talked-about ends of new player retention.
I have to say that THAT is one of the things that would help me feel the love more.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 24, 2014, 04:15:05 PM
I can sympathize with that - the glass ceiling that exists for higher-tier promotions is frustrating
Yes indeedy, 'specially when you've worked your ass off to earn it.
I tend to favor playability versus realism. I'd like us to be able to impact the world more. To not have staff blocking people from doing big things. I'd like to see that terrible Blue rise to a Red. I'd like to see that Agent make Senior Agent and have even more power. I'd like to see those sly, law abiding artists retire in Red Storm, wealthy and brazenly open about their escapades, would like those gems to be able to be zapped off by another sorceror, I'd like more doppelgangers and spies, more turn coats, more player/character greatness without restrictions.
Sometimes it seems that you can only get things done IF staff agrees with you.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 24, 2014, 04:43:08 PM
Sometimes it seems that you can only get things done IF staff agrees with you.
I don't think it's so much "agrees with you" as it is "agrees that it follows along with the status quo and/or the direction they would like to see the game going in."
That being said, a while back I was part of a group of independents that through patience and persistence made some very effective and lasting changes to a certain area of the world and managed to hold their own against the powers that be both PC and NPC in a way that, before I saw it for myself, I would have thought was only done "in the good old days."
So yes, big changes are possible, but they take time and a -lot- of planning. They also require that you not get butt-hurt when something you are trying utterly fails due to being justly smacked down by PCs, NPCs and teh world.
One piece of advice I can offer (and have several times in the past when the change-barrier came up):
Don't do this: Staff, I want a rickshaw, can I please have a rickshaw? What do I need to do to get a rickshaw?
Do do this: (part of a _REGULAR_ report) Rickshaw update: Below is a copy of the materials list that I submitted a couple months ago after researching early rickshaw and chariot construction. The figures in parenthesis are what my PC currently has on hand in his warehouse. Also there are two logs included in this report. One of my PC trying to understand how to get the crude wheel's he's constructed to run on an axle without either binding up or being too wobbly, and the other is a log of a conversation he had with Kuraci mastercrafter Talia who, as mentioned before, he is sleeping with since she has worked on wagon projects before. He's considered asking her outright for her help, but fears that she is too loyal to the House to work on something like this, especially since her boss refused to build it for Amos in the first place.
So for the glass ceiling I say this - play your leader pc to the hilt, do a good job, and before you get jaded because promotion is impossible, store your character, and secretly pretend it's because they got promoted.
Then in your head say to yourself, "They're out there right now, the Head Merchant of House Salarr...they succeeded...they're superrich and famous and successful, all because of the things I did."
It may not be true...but nobody will know your secret story.
Senior Agent is achievable as a rank I'm -pretty- sure. It's when you get into the realm of influencing ENTIRE Houses that things start getting blocked, because now you're achieving way too much power and your life would essentially equate to sitting in an office plotting forever.
Anything beyond Senior Agent/Lord focuses less on the adventure and intrigue and more on the macro-management and logistics of world trade. AKA boring.
Since I last posted in this thread, I think already a few months ago, I have come to love the game a lot more. I have also had ample love from the staff... I wonder what switched, but I definitely grew up at least in part to explain the change.
Basically, the love just grows deeper with each new story and its conclusion. I was able to work with more PCs, more staff. I gave clan life a try again and I really, really enjoyed it. I felt the love from players and staff both.
I'm still around and I'm not going anywhere.
FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS.
I deserved the negative note I got on my account, back from when I first started. I look back and use it as a thing to remind me how far I've come, and what stuff not to do.
Here's a thought experiment for folks who think the game is a little too stagnant.
1. Think of one player-driven change to the world and status-quo that you personally believe would massively improve the game for everyone involved. Imagine that you can (metaphorically) snap your fingers and make this change happen.
2. Now, imagine half a dozen equally plausible player-driven changes that would absolutely ruin your enjoyment of the entire game, forever. This is not just idle speculation, because I guarantee that there's a bunch of other players imagining these right now. Only difference is, they think it'd be friggin' awesome. They can also snap their fingers.
That right there is an argument for changes happening slow.
Italis just wants us to snap our fingers a lot.
So what you're telling me here, is if I snap my fingers, that half the playerbase dies because of my plot (not to include me)?
I -like- this idea.
Wellllp. I kinda said my piece here, and find it seems categorically unwise to argue with staff, but... Just can't help myself I guess! I'll keep it brief, at least. ;)
I wasn't expressing a wish at all for changes to be made in the space of 'a snap of the fingers.' In my original post here, I was lamenting a feeling that I had/have, that the game experience is basically, "Scenes happen, than you die, and it really wouldn't have changed the grand scheme of things (aside from ultimately petty details) one way or another if you had been there to put in those days and days worth of game-time or not."
I don't want to come across as quite so negative as people seem to be interpreting me. Like I said originally, the question in the topic isn't entirely black and white. Despite my cynicism, I still love the game, and am thoroughly addicted. :)
Can we snap other people's fingers?
Quote from: BleakOne on February 03, 2014, 03:35:00 AM
Can we snap other people's fingers?
Pretty sure I saw that happening in one of the logs on the website.
I guess someone was actually "being the change"! :D
OMFG, KUDOS?! Now I just feel all warm and squishy inside. Whoever sent that, thanks! Though, uh, you quiet possibly will never know who you sent it to.
EDIT: Bleak One, that avatar of yours, those things gave me terrible nightmares when I was a child... *shivers*