Do you feel the love?

[Nyr]

Also Nyr and Fredd, this thread's for lovers not for fighters.

Fair point! 

For some reason this image pops up in my head when I see this thread title:

[Fredd]

I bet I can guess what Fredd's question was about...  

Got in a fight with Nyr, and lost Karma.

This is a bad way to describe or look at interaction with staff or players on this game (probably bad to do this in description of other things in life, too).  It removes all of the context and boils everything down to what ultimately happened negatively to you (staff does not trust you as much and now your karma is one point lower) and arbitrarily assigns reasoning for that without looking at the larger picture (because you got in a fight with a staff member).  What did you get in a fight with a staff member over, exactly?  What is it that you did that caused a staff response?  For the sake of reassurance here, it was not an argument or disagreement and I doubt you can call it a fight.  It isn't that appropriate to discuss here because that's between you and staff.  However, it's also not doing any favors for you if you take great pains to avoid accepting responsibility for your own actions and instead try and paint it as a "fight" when the truth is much different than that.

Knew you were going to come back and say that. Truth of the matter, this is why I don't feel the love. Right here.

I didn't want to go into specifics. Did I do something wrong: absolutely. Did it make sense to me to do it: absolutely. Did You completely overreact? Absolutely. And did I put in a staff complaint because I felt you were out of line: Absolutely. 

So, I wanted to leave it at the arguement part of all that, and not bother with specifics. But I'm not embaressed about what I did. It made sense to me to do it, it was wrong, I learned my lesson. I didn't need a ban, I didn't need karma pulled, and I don't need you policing every post I make, and every request I put in, when I take pains to play in parts of the world you aren't.

So This is why I don't feel the love. I don't think I'm a problem player. I work hard to make my PC's well rounded, with depth, I try to help new players as much as possible, I try to improve the game world, and I vote daily, and I'm usualy really good with staff communication and account notes.

But this is how I'm treated.

[Wug]

Wug, here is your new avatar.

Hey man, I'm pretty sure you didn't make that.

[Nyr]

I'm sorry you're not feeling the love, Fredd.  I don't have any animosity towards you and I assure you that how this was handled was how it would be handled for any player in the same situation.

[manonfire]

Wug, here is your new avatar.

Hey man, I'm pretty sure you didn't make that.

You'll take your new avatar and you'll enjoy it or I swear I'll turn this car around.

[a french mans shirt]

For some reason this image pops up in my head when I see this thread title:

Yeah, I mean... everything seems to be fine right now, but I'm afraid somebody is going to start something. Maybe the thread should get locked?

I think for me the furthest I ever went, save for a stupid newbie moment the explanation of which I don't think is going to be helpful to many people, was this one thing a long time ago. I'd made a blind pc with the potential for great listening skills if trained, but without direction sense. They were blind, so I put people in their tdesc to give her an alibi for getting lost in total darkness and using torches in them. A member of staff thought I was trying to have vnpc protecters and gave me a warning, with my next screw-up to get me banned from the game. I'm pretty sure that never actually got resolved, but since I wasn't banned I don't feel like it matters, especially since its been a long time and I don't feel like I'm going to be a problem again.

So basically NEVER PUT ANYTHING ALIVE THAT CAN PROTECT YOU IN YOUR TDESC

I definitely feel the love when staff screws with my pc. One time, I didn't even have to ask! :3 I thought my asking in character reports and all that was getting irritating to those who were reading it: apparently someone decided to send (awesome thing) into (awesome event) for (awesome) and it was (awesome). I am both hopeful and afraid that it will happen again, especially since I have no intention of stopping asking in my reports. Its a joy to bring death or strange and hapless suffering to my pc for others to watch, and its nice of staff to help accommodate me, or to be patient until I realize I can do (thing I'm asking for) by myself.

There's also some other stuff but this is what came to mind first. Little things, big things.

Players: WOOOOOO

That is all for now because my brain is tired of writing.

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE

YOU KNOW WHO YOU BARZALENE



And everyone else whose GDB handles I don't actually remember.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think we're all a bunch of loveable assholes

[razorback]

I think we're all a bunch of loveable assholes

This.

Should added as a requirement. 

[Fredd]

I'm sorry you're not feeling the love, Fredd.  I don't have any animosity towards you and I assure you that how this was handled was how it would be handled for any player in the same situation.

Um..Alright. Sorry for being as upset as I was. Thank you Nyr.

[williamson]

I've played since the days of Thrain Ironsword and this MUD has never been better than it is right now. Some of the reasons include, interesting/developed clans, active/talented staff, tons of guilds and skills, character reports, lots of players, and an advanced economy. However, I read all five pages of this post and I don't think anyone mentioned the most important thing involved in retaining veteran players.....














FAIRNESS


Just like Fox news, the game is the most fair and balanced it's ever been. Despite my Fox news reference, I'm actually being serious. One of the things that I confused as a newbie player was believing that staff was "fucking with me" when they were actually just having the game world react realisticly. If you keep going out and "hunting" gith, don't be surprised if one day a gith runs away and comes back with three of this buddies to kill you. The same thing can be said about the people in the labyrinth. If this happens, the staff aren't picking on you. It's intelligent humanoids banding together to defend themselves from a repetitive threat. Compared to the old days, the current staff is very friendly, balanced, and usually even keeled.


Back when I was a newbie... Before the days of coded tables, the mercy command, clothing with pockets, apartments, hitched mounts, sparring weapons, crafting, foraging... and worst of all... When you logged into the game, everything that was inside your backpack started out in your inventory and you had to put it all back inside manually. What was I talking about? Oh yeah, fairness. Here's an example from about 1995 of a real bummer:

I was playing a mantis warrior and headed up to the north road to try and find a tasty snack. When along comes a silly human, I cleverly ambush him and after a long fight he flees and falls off the Shield Wall to his death. I walk all the way down to the bottom, eat his corpse, and search through my new loot. AND guess what I find? A badass steel half-sword! I'm on top of the world. I'm showing off my sword to the other PC mantis and we're all high fiving our antennas. However, a few days later, I log in and realize my steel half-sword is now a bone half-sword! Doh, I'm like WTF? So, I wish up to the staff and told them my problem. The response I got was something like, "I thought there were too many steel half-swords in the game so I changed it." I responded with something like, "But I got this killing so and so fair and square." The response was something like, "Well, you caught that guy after another big fight and he'd lost his mount and you got lucky that he fell of the Shield Wall or he would have backstabbed you to death, so just pretend it was always bone." If this happened today, you could use the request tool and file a complaint and the staff would review it. Later, you'd get a reply like this, "So and so was having a bad day because you killed his PC and he acted a little rash. Here's your steel half-sword back." Guess what I got back then?












So, what can veteran players do to help out the staff?

• Obey the rules of the game
• Send in regular, concise, and interesting character reports
• Avoid leaking IC information via OOC communication
• Contently play the deputy for someone's sheriff
• Play the most interesting player to ever lose
• Play active characters that drive plots that require little to no staff support

Here are some interesting character ideas, to me, that require little to no staff support:

• Form a gang of Allanaki thieves that travels to other cities/villages and steal things. You immediately return to Allanak and fence the goods while giving the local templar a kick back to leave your gang alone.
• Form a band of raiders in Red Storm that raid/poach in the tablelands
• Make a desert elf merchant that takes advantage of tribal neutrality to trade between Allanak and Tuluk during the war
• Form a bardic group in Allanak that rivals any in Tuluk
• Form a band of Tuluki privateers that raid Allanak as partisans of an important Tuluki noble

Thanks to everyone for making this game rock of such a long time!

[KankWhisperer]

[Molten Heart]

• Form a band of Tuluki privateers that raid Allanak as partisans of an important Tuluki noble

Maybe the climate is good enough to try this again.  No armorer dwarves will be allowed in the gang this time.

[Fredd]

• Form a band of Tuluki privateers that raid Allanak as partisans of an important Tuluki noble

Maybe the climate is good enough to try this again.  No armorer dwarves will be allowed in the gang this time.

I did it backwards (Allanak privateers against Tuluk) A few years ago And it was a whole lot of fun. Just remember that kick-up!

[Kevo]

I think this thread is going exceedingly well.


You may continue...

[Fredd]

I think this thread is going exceedingly well.


You may continue...

I feel the love because of this thread >.>

[Harmless]

Sometimes, it isn't exactly that the staff suck or that the players suck, but that the situation just sucks no matter how you try to approach it.

I can't give IC examples, but I can create a scenario.


Player has a sponsored role PC. Player's actions go against the role and a disciplinary action must be taken by staff.

Staff options:

     1.) Send a warning to player, immediately after bad actions are noticed.
     2.) Wait for player to submit a character report about their actions.
            a.) Respond to report with immediate disciplinary action (force store, karma reduction)
            b.) Respond to report with warning of above and guidance on actions.
     3.) Let player continue to make mistakes and wait for IC consequences to unfold, or animate an NPC to discipline.
     4.) Add a negative account note and do nothing else.

Okay, all four have their merits. But some seem worse than others, right? (2a seems the harshest, 3 seems like the player would enjoy the most, 4 is the worst by far because the player is totally ignorant of what is happening).

BUT -- situations are RARELY this simple.

Let's say player actions are really hampering the environment for other players. Does that push the staffer towards options 1? Or 3?

Let's say the player may actually benefit from 2a the most. Certainly, in the recent past this was apparently the thought the staff had.

Let's say the player is not filing reports often or consistently. Option 2 looks bad now, yes? Now it's time to consider 1 3, or 4.
    If the player's playtimes are unpredictable, option 3 is a no-go. And wording a message in option 1 is tricky...


I hope this illustrates the difficulty. Why am I making this post? No, I'm not trying to tell staff how to do their jobs. I am posting this in an attempt to grieve and understand why staff has taken certain actions against me in the past, and to try and learn from it.

The final piece of the puzzle is that often, players aren't allowed to know the full situation surrounding their PCs. In the end, we need to trust the staff.

How can staff gain player trust? By setting the envronment in advance, by informing players of their mistakes, and by being consistent with their choices and actions.

[Nyr]

Sometimes, it isn't exactly that the staff suck or that the players suck, but that the situation just sucks no matter how you try to approach it.

I can't give IC examples, but I can create a scenario.


Player has a sponsored role PC. Player's actions go against the role and a disciplinary action must be taken by staff.

Staff options:

      1.) Send a warning to player, immediately after bad actions are noticed.

This is what we usually do if it can't wait until the next report.

2.) Wait for player to submit a character report about their actions.

This is a good idea too.

a.) Respond to report with immediate disciplinary action (force store, karma reduction)

This rarely occurs except for special cases.

b.) Respond to report with warning of above and guidance on actions.

This is pretty normal.

3.) Let player continue to make mistakes and wait for IC consequences to unfold, or animate an NPC to discipline.

This is sometimes an option, too, depending on what is going on (if it is a sponsored role though we would make the effort to explain what's up first).

4.) Add a negative account note and do nothing else.

This is more rare and typically does not happen.  If we're adding a negative note we are usually letting the player know.

Let's say player actions are really hampering the environment for other players. Does that push the staffer towards options 1? Or 3?

It depends on the situation, we usually engage in dialogue with the player first.

Let's say the player may actually benefit from 2a the most. Certainly, in the recent past this was apparently the thought the staff had.

Then I suppose that's the option that staff takes.

Let's say the player is not filing reports often or consistently. Option 2 looks bad now, yes? Now it's time to consider 1 3, or 4.

Correct, we would discuss with the sponsored role what's going on.

If the player's playtimes are unpredictable, option 3 is a no-go. And wording a message in option 1 is tricky...

If the player has unpredictable playtimes, those should be communicated to staff; this is a sponsored role, after all!

I hope this illustrates the difficulty. Why am I making this post? No, I'm not trying to tell staff how to do their jobs. I am posting this in an attempt to grieve and understand why staff has taken certain actions against me in the past, and to try and learn from it.

You might want to open up with staff in dialogue if you have a question about something that was done.

[Harmless]

Thanks for your reply, Nyr...

[Kevo]

Yeah, I have to seriously agree with Harmless, there. Not only does the situation sometimes suck, but Nyr's elaboration of possible actions puts things into better perspective from me.

[ale six]

Somebody mentioned the "glass ceiling" topic to me, so I thought I'd drop by and share a thought.

The people who are saying you don't want to wind up as a senior noble or red robe templar are exactly right. It really puts you in an awkward position as a player: do you obey the social norms and have about four PCs it's acceptable to hang out with in the game, or do you get your character involved in things that should really be beneath their notice? Plus, it puts the other nobles and templars in your city in a weird spot, because socially they're supposed to be beneath you, but they probably didn't app for a leadership role just so they could get bossed around by some other PC who's been around longer. The game is (or at least was) designed around some social checks and balances that break down if characters advance too far unchecked.

That's not saying I'm not all in favor of long-lived PCs in those roles, it's just the staff has to get creative with the perks you can earn (and it sounds like they have?) Nothing says junior nobles can't earn more money for doing good by their House, or that there's only so many perks that Tek will ever give a blue robe. If you aim to advance in those kinds of directions, "outward" instead of upward, I think you probably won't run into the issue of cutting off opportunities, both for yourself and others.

Don't get me wrong, I loooooved my templar. It's just looking back I think I would have loved him just as much if his robe was blue instead of red. Maybe the final "end game" for a PC in those types of roles could be to do something Really Cool, and go down in history or get something named after you or see a bit of lore you'd never otherwise see... but then get promoted and stored off right after.

<3 and bye again.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Maybe the final "end game" for a PC in those types of roles could be to do something Really Cool, and go down in history or get something named after you or see a bit of lore you'd never otherwise see... but then get promoted and stored off right after.

Now that. That right there is an idea. A good idea. It sucks to live long enough to get stored (I haven't so I can only imagine - I always die sooner or later), but it would absolutely rock to go out as ale suggests.

[Harmless]

You might want to open up with staff in dialogue if you have a question about something that was done.

Nyr: I took your suggestion, and got some useful clarifications that helped me to turn the page and move on from what happened. So, thanks for personally recommending that I send another request. I'm glad I did.

Ah! Now I really want to play this game some more...

And now I feel tha lurve.  

Edit: to reply to ale six and 7deadly: How our characters "go out" is EXTREMELY important to us players. It is, in a way, everything, because they all go out sometime and that is the first thing we'll recall when we think back on them.

So, I like that staff are accommodating to our thoughts and requests on our losses. Not once, but twice, a staffer has written very thoughtful, detailed replies to requests I sent in that can be summed up as, "I died or was stored and I am unhappy about it." So staff get this, and help us novices move on when needed.

The sting and pain of permadeath are balanced by some very thoughtful messages from staff when needed, in my experience.

[manipura]

The sting and pain of permadeath are balanced by some very thoughtful messages from staff when needed, in my experience.

This.

When my first long-lived character died (in a horribly stupid way that was entirely my own fault) I sat there staring at the screen, half in shock and half about to freak out.  My phone 'dinged' immediately after I got the mantis head and I knew it was that awful generic email that says "Hey, sorry you died!  Please play again!"...you know, the one that's like salt being rubbed in an open wound, the one that makes you feel like someone's kicking you when you're already down?

But then, not long after that initial email, my phone dinged again.  I had just sent in a character report a day or two before and this second email was from staff saying something along the lines of "Hey, I just noticed that your PC died!  Can you let me know what happened?"

It was a little thing, but it was nice to feel like someone had noticed and was going to give me a chance to vent/explain.  Even though it wasn't a response to a request that was questioning the circumstances surrounding my PCs death, it was still nice to know that someone was willing to listen to how the whole thing unfolded.

[ShaLeah]

I'd never thought of that farewell death email as salt in the wound. That's exactly how it feels. Thanks manipura.

Maybe it should not come for 24hrs?

[Scarecrow]

I am feeling the love. Armageddon feels more 'alive' now that ever before, IMO. I like Armageddon because I come here to see and have awful things happen to me, and be done by me. I like when my characters are vulnerable and someone kicks them when they are down. It just makes revenge all the tastier when the meal arrives.
Hate, hate, hate. Treachery, treachery, treachery.
I love this game.