Do you feel the love?

[Nyr]

If you can understand why something is a bad note and have truly improved beyond that point, I'd say throw your concerns to the wind and laugh at it.  We're not rubbing your face in what you did.  It's just part of the record.  Enjoy it and embrace it and learn to laugh at your past mistakes, especially if it was "nailing stuff to the ceiling," which is pretty funny (and if it wasn't yesterday it probably isn't keeping you back from any roles).

[Derain]

I feel like I learned from alot of my mistakes but it always hurts when I did my best in a character role then see alot of negative and never any positive. I learned my lesson and always wish up before a possible PK and I always wish up if something crazy might be about to happen just so staff don't get hind sight and complaints from 2 very biased points of view. But I guess it just seems grudges get held sometimes.

EDIT:I don't think NOW that staff hold grudges but it felt that way in the past

[FreeRangeVestric]

Eh. The topic question is not really a black and white one, to me. I feel frustration at (what I see as) a largely stagnant-by-design game world, but it's not like I have some ever-changing, multiplayer, immersive-RP game to compare Arm to in regards to this flaw perceived flaw. Hell, there's hardly an immersive roleplaying experience (in a format that suits me) to be had on the internet aside from this, as far as my searching has turned up. And I do certainly 'feel the love' when I am involved in all the delightful roleplay I've been involved in with you great people! I just wish I felt like said roleplay was a meaningful part in a bigger picture, I suppose, and I try to see that it is, but often find myself with lingering doubts...

Either way, Armageddon be a harsh mistress, so I'm here, love or no love.  

[Barzalene]

I do.  More and more all the time. Weird. Since coming back this time clan staff has be like dream staff. My reports are read. They say yes when they can. When they say no, I feel like the request was considered.

[Majikal]

There isn't much being done to retain veteran players, at all. IMO

[boog]

There isn't much being done to retain veteran players, at all. IMO

Just curious -- what do you think should be done?

[Fujikoma]

I dunno, maybe make the known a place where you can have an impact. As it is you have a mountain of vNPCs that will never be moved except as directed to, and seldom are they directed to move in positive ways, like getting a job and contributing to society.

[RogueGunslinger]

It sort of absurd to expect the relatively small staff to make personalized story interactions/animations for each and every long-time player. The workload behind doing that, as well as all the things they already do, would be astronomical. Especially when the players themselves are, 99 time out of 100, unwilling to put the same amount of work in.

[TimTembo]

Kind of a rant here.

Armageddon is what you make it. You get out what you put in, 99 percent of the time. Focus on retaining yourself and your own enjoyment by being original and creative, rather than expecting staff to do that for you.

If you made a compelling, vibrant character, you don't think you'd be entertained when you log in?

Not every PC I make hits that mark, but with some, I had a great time simply seeing what happened to them, without needing any staff interaction.

Are these people who need staff to entertain them making generic hunter #28275 and then saying "this game sucks" once they get bored of collecting gurth shells? Was the ultimate goal of their play building a wagon or a tavern, and, when they're unable to get it, they feel deeply wronged?

I don't get it. Stretch your comfort zone, make an awesome PC and you won't care about any of that shit. If you make the same character you always play, you're going to be bored.

There's a saying - boring people get bored. Make your own fun by being fun and the game will be good to you. People spend too much time looking to others to be some magical source of entertainment, and not enough time looking to themselves.

Reminds me of a teenager surrounded by games, electronics, books, sports, and friends, who says "there isn't anything to doooooooo!"

Remember when you were a kid and you could have amazing adventures with a stick, or a rock, and some imagination. That's the mindset you need to bring to the game.

[Cutthroat]

I don't know where the narrative that Armageddon is stagnant and unchangeable comes from. It is something that is brought up time and time again on the GDB, sometimes even when something in the game was just changed by a player (or more correctly, a group of players), making that argument even stranger to see.

It would be more correct to say that it is hard to change the game, and it is. The simplest change you can make to the game is a mastercraft, and that takes getting a craft skill to master, something that is pretty hard to do. The hardest are large-scale social or building changes to cities, which (for the most part) is arranged by sponsored roles (there have been exceptions) and people associated with those PCs tag along and help out with the overall plot (again, with some exceptions).

It's not even about workload - staff, if anything, prioritizes this kind of work to the extent that they are willing to work with PCs with the ability to put these changes into motion. PCs without this ability have the next-best thing - the ability to tag along for the ride. This is basically a big reason for the existence of leader PCs, especially sponsored ones but also potentially PCs who work their way to a topmost point - to serve as an interface between staff and other PCs for running big plots.

There are various bigger changes that have happened in the game that are demonstrably the work of PCs. I'm sorry if you personally haven't been at least partly the cause of these bigger changes but there are ways to get involved in them. Since they don't happen too often, and require a bit of trust and being somewhat established, my tip is to just play longer-lived (doesn't have to be too long, but let's face it, a two-week ranger who dies outside the walls to a scrab/carru ain't changin' nothin') characters who ideally work closely with a clan, and/or join one completely.

[valeria]

I'm head scratching here, because extended subguilds/starting skill boosts have in my opinion been a huge, popular change that benefits veteran players.  Also, the huge increase in staff communication, transparency, responsiveness (see various changes and change-discussion threads, and the resulting changes to the changes; also see prompt and thorough responses to character reports and individual concerns, this has been all of my staffers lately, including indie staffers) has at least as far as I've seen led to a lot less disillusionment and frustration.  Which are more likely to knock off veteran players than newer players.

The single major thing that would improve my experience as a veteran player would be if only staff could come up with some way for me to play the game more now that I have a spouse, a house, a full time job, and a real life.  Alas, that's entirely in my control.

[Barzalene]

I'm sad to hear that Majikal isn't enjoying the game more. I remember playing in a clan with him about 5 years ago. Still one of my favorite people to rp with. Great pcs and great energy. But I think it's like anything. Sometimes, in this small sandbox we get some friction - get on each other's nerves and have some disappointments. I've quit three times so far for about a year each time. Ups and downs. So, hopefully things will turn around.

[FreeRangeVestric]

I don't know where the narrative that Armageddon is stagnant and unchangeable comes from...

Than I'll elaborate a bit, since I think this was at least partially directed towards my comment...

There is a lot to say, and much that I can't without getting into IC details that are inappropriate for the boards, but I suppose my biggest gripe is the restriction that makes it so players are only allowed to reach 'middle-management' levels, as it were, of any given clan. Rather than only being a detriment on the ambitions of the Templars/Nobles/Officers/Merchants/etc. in question, I think this has a detrimental effect on the gameworld as a whole. Because the majority of these organizations' power is made virtual by this policy, there is no way for it to significantly increase or, probably more importantly, decrease because of player action. Consequently, we have organizations that are powerful only because people say so, and nothing can be done to impact their stature in the world, unless it is through actions of the staff-controlled higher-ups of other clans.

Also, I -have- played characters in the mold of what your last paragraph describes, and it's these more than any others that have given me this view. Again, I can't say much without going into IC details, but (and this is said with nothing but love for the players whose characters were in place to take me 'along for the ride,' as you say) every plot I was involved in had been rendered 100% inconsequential in the space of...about a week after said character's death? I include in this having a minor role (at the time) in a clan heavily involved in the last HRPT and the events around it, which I think I am right in believing would have played out entirely the same if the vast majority of players present, including myself, were not involved.

Don't really buy the whole 'join a clan as a prerequisite to change the world' argument, either. Sure, they absolutely should be good ways to acquire influence, but having them as the -only- means to do so, when all clans answer to and have to keep their goals in line with a power structure that is not made up of PC's, makes organic, player-inspired change seem even less likely to occur, in my view.

[Cutthroat]

I don't know where the narrative that Armageddon is stagnant and unchangeable comes from...

Than I'll elaborate a bit, since I think this was at least partially directed towards my comment...

There is a lot to say, and much that I can't without getting into IC details that are inappropriate for the boards, but I suppose my biggest gripe is the restriction that makes it so players are only allowed to reach 'middle-management' levels, as it were, of any given clan. Rather than only being a detriment on the ambitions of the Templars/Nobles/Officers/Merchants/etc. in question, I think this has a detrimental effect on the gameworld as a whole. Because the majority of these organizations' power is made virtual by this policy, there is no way for it to significantly increase or, probably more importantly, decrease because of player action. Consequently, we have organizations that are powerful only because people say so, and nothing can be done to impact their stature in the world, unless it is through actions of the staff-controlled higher-ups of other clans.

I can sympathize with that - the glass ceiling that exists for higher-tier promotions is frustrating, but I can also see how it makes sense from a purely OOC, game design perspective, in that PCs that are too socially powerful would not be able to feasibly interact with a majority of players ICly (for example, a senior noble or red-robed templar has no IC reason to visit the tavern and chum it up with lesser nobles). It also helps keep a bit of balance between clans, since no one clan will have a member or a leader who is officially significantly higher-ranked than another clan or leader. That helps make conflict more protracted, instead of Senior Noble PC from House A crushing Junior Noble PC from House B repeatedly.

The best solution to this problem is for staff to introduce more ICly feasible ranks and positions that are between the top-level of what PCs can currently reach, and the ranks that are currently out of reach, and make those new ranks within reach and make sense for a PC to hold without throwing off that balance.

Also, I -have- played characters in the mold of what your last paragraph describes, and it's these more than any others that have given me this view. Again, I can't say much without going into IC details, but (and this is said with nothing but love for the players whose characters were in place to take me 'along for the ride,' as you say) every plot I was involved in had been rendered 100% inconsequential in the space of...about a week after said character's death? I include in this having a minor role (at the time) in a clan heavily involved in the last HRPT and the events around it, which I think I am right in believing would have played out entirely the same if the vast majority of players present, including myself, were not involved.

Don't really buy the whole 'join a clan as a prerequisite to change the world' argument, either. Sure, they absolutely should be good ways to acquire influence, but having them as the -only- means to do so, when all clans answer to and have to keep their goals in line with a power structure that is not made up of PC's, makes organic, player-inspired change seem even less likely to occur, in my view.

I wouldn't have made the argument if it's not been demonstrated IG. Like I said, there are exceptions, but being in a clan makes it significantly more likely that you will be, or be underneath, someone with an interesting plot, simply because that influence makes it more likely to make that plot possible. And those PCs will have the rank to do such things and/or the approval from those that are currently vNPC and NPC heads of clans, so long as the goal is reasonable. You can't do everything, but that does help maintain some semblance of that balance I mentioned. For better or worse, the game's social structure in both cities is designed to keep indies down. It is meant to be extremely hard for an indie to get influence and extremely easy for a clanned person to get it.

[FreeRangeVestric]

Eh. Well, I guess since we are unable to bring specifics into either of our arguments, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Maybe there are plenty of player-made changes going on in the game presently and I am just not seeing any of them, and maybe one day my cynical and pessimistic soul will be lifted by something that happens to one of my characters. But than, if the changes are only there to be had for incredibly well-established, connected players, that doesn't seem to do much for the much talked-about ends of new player retention.

[ShaLeah]

I have to say that THAT is one of the things that would help me feel the love more.

I can sympathize with that - the glass ceiling that exists for higher-tier promotions is frustrating

Yes indeedy, 'specially when you've worked your ass off to earn it.

I tend to favor playability versus realism. I'd like us to be able to impact the world more. To not have staff blocking people from doing big things. I'd like to see that terrible Blue rise to a Red. I'd like to see that Agent make Senior Agent and have even more power. I'd like to see those sly, law abiding artists retire in Red Storm, wealthy and brazenly open about their escapades, would like those gems to be able to be zapped off by another sorceror, I'd like more doppelgangers and spies, more turn coats, more player/character greatness without restrictions.

Sometimes it seems that you can only get things done IF staff agrees with you.

[FantasyWriter]

Sometimes it seems that you can only get things done IF staff agrees with you.

I don't think it's so much "agrees with you" as it is "agrees that it follows along with the status quo and/or the direction they would like to see the game going in."

That being said, a while back I was part of a group of independents that through patience and persistence made some very effective and lasting changes to a certain area of the world and managed to hold their own against the powers that be both PC and NPC in a way that, before I saw it for myself, I would have thought was only done "in the good old days."

So yes, big changes are possible, but they take time and a -lot- of planning. They also require that you not get butt-hurt when something you are trying utterly fails due to being justly smacked down by PCs, NPCs and teh world.

One piece of advice I can offer (and have several times in the past when the change-barrier came up):

Don't do this: Staff, I want a rickshaw, can I please have a rickshaw? What do I need to do to get a rickshaw?

Do do this: (part of a _REGULAR_ report) Rickshaw update: Below is a copy of the materials list that I submitted a couple months ago after researching early rickshaw and chariot construction.  The figures in parenthesis are what my PC currently has on hand in his warehouse.  Also there are two logs included in this report.  One of my PC trying to understand how to get the crude wheel's he's constructed to run on an axle without either binding up or being too wobbly, and the other is a log of a conversation he had with Kuraci mastercrafter Talia who, as mentioned before, he is sleeping with since she has worked on wagon projects before.  He's considered asking her outright for her help, but fears that she is too loyal to the House to work on something like this, especially since her boss refused to build it for Amos in the first place.

[LauraMars]

So for the glass ceiling I say this - play your leader pc to the hilt, do a good job, and before you get jaded because promotion is impossible, store your character, and secretly pretend it's because they got promoted.

Then in your head say to yourself, "They're out there right now, the Head Merchant of House Salarr...they succeeded...they're superrich and famous and successful, all because of the things I did."

It may not be true...but nobody will know your secret story.

[evilcabbage]

Senior Agent is achievable as a rank I'm -pretty- sure. It's when you get into the realm of influencing ENTIRE Houses that things start getting blocked, because now you're achieving way too much power and your life would essentially equate to sitting in an office plotting forever.

[Zoan]

Anything beyond Senior Agent/Lord focuses less on the adventure and intrigue and more on the macro-management and logistics of world trade. AKA boring.

[Harmless]

Since I last posted in this thread, I think already a few months ago, I have come to love the game a lot more. I have also had ample love from the staff... I wonder what switched, but I definitely grew up at least in part to explain the change.

Basically, the love just grows deeper with each new story and its conclusion. I was able to work with more PCs, more staff. I gave clan life a try again and I really, really enjoyed it. I felt the love from players and staff both.

I'm still around and I'm not going anywhere.


FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS.

[Scarecrow]

I deserved the negative note I got on my account, back from when I first started. I look back and use it as a thing to remind me how far I've come, and what stuff not to do.

[Italis]

Here's a thought experiment for folks who think the game is a little too stagnant.

1. Think of one player-driven change to the world and status-quo that you personally believe would massively improve the game for everyone involved. Imagine that you can (metaphorically) snap your fingers and make this change happen.

2. Now, imagine half a dozen equally plausible player-driven changes that would absolutely ruin your enjoyment of the entire game, forever. This is not just idle speculation, because I guarantee that there's a bunch of other players imagining these right now. Only difference is, they think it'd be friggin' awesome. They can also snap their fingers.

That right there is an argument for changes happening slow.

[Voular]

Italis just wants us to snap our fingers a lot.

[evilcabbage]

So what you're telling me here, is if I snap my fingers, that half the playerbase dies because of my plot (not to include me)?

I -like- this idea.