On the one hand, the RP opportunities of having a mundane that can can-trip seems endless and almost make me salivate with the potential new characters that can be made.
I wonder if this will increase or decrease the amount of magic we see in game though?
Perhaps the potential fun of a combination like this makes the question entirely moot, not to mention the ability for them to more effectively be part of society and hide/survive without needing magic. Heck even going the other way around and being a gemmer might not be so bad either after all running in and bashing a mage you think is unprepared might have new funny consequences.
I guess it will all depend on how much the magickal sub-guilds cost in the end. Not too much i hope. :-[
I'm always for less people knowing what guild a person is using.
Might make for more low end magick. But less high end magick.
Not to mention...as already said, Makes guild sniffing ALOT riskier...Is he really a newb mage or is he a 90 day UBER DOOM WARRIOR THAT WILL EAT YOUR FACE that knows a few spells...Hhhmmmmm.
Course, More low end and less high end magick actually fits with the docs better. Since there is a section that says, Many people work to learn a spell or two.
Think the real question is - will they be required to take the gem.
Guess we just have to wait and see.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on September 16, 2011, 04:31:59 PM
Think the real question is - will they be required to take the gem.
I'm 101.5% sure that they will be.
I'm having a hard time seeing how magickal subguilds that aren't sorcerers would fit into today's gameworld & code.
So probably no gems. Mostly death.
If they're elementalists, definitely gems. A wiggler's a wiggler. Unless they're a sorc. Then they should die.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 16, 2011, 04:34:59 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on September 16, 2011, 04:31:59 PM
Think the real question is - will they be required to take the gem.
I'm 101.5% sure that they will be.
You totally stole my line. Imposter!
Quote from: Delirium on September 16, 2011, 04:36:53 PM
I'm having a hard time seeing how magickal subguilds that aren't sorcerers would fit into today's gameworld & code.
So probably no gems. Mostly death.
I've known of PCs who were only partly elementalists, a few times. They weren't sorcerors. I think this is probably just something that hasn't been fully represented in the code previously, even though it's been part of the gameworld.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 16, 2011, 04:34:59 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on September 16, 2011, 04:31:59 PM
Think the real question is - will they be required to take the gem.
I'm 101.5% sure that they will be.
I agree with Brytta. I don`t think anything will change RP wise in terms of how the world view mages, basically if you can cast even a single spell you are a mage, regardless of your other talents. With the exception being how powerful organizations treat these guys, i could see some GMH knowingly keep some of these guys around due to their exceptional talents.
Seriously i`m almost salivating with the potential of these combinations.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on September 16, 2011, 04:31:59 PM
Think the real question is - will they be required to take a lirapet to the face.
ftfy
I wonder if you could take a magical subguild with a magicker main guild... Half-breed Drovian-Krathi. Internal conflict forever.
It's fun to think about. From the direction that I've seen the game go over the last few years, I doubt it would happen outside of a special application.
I could see component crafting subguilds and maybe some innate sense guilds that mimic spells. An innate sight to detect invisibility for example. I think some expanded psionic powers would be way sweeter than magicker subguilds.
But I don't think spells would work if it isn't sorcery.
subguild to see if someone is a gicker or not. all you need.
I'm also excited about the mix-matchery aspect and the new latent fear that EVERYONE could suddenly toss a spell out. My hope is that this in fact leads to even LESS acceptance of magick use and fear of being discovered means people would use it privately and almost with shame if they weren't a full out elementalist.
My guess is that if they aren't a main guild elementalist then their magick is "True Magick" and there would entail them "gathering" frmo themselves or the land to recharge... This would be AWESOME because even if the uber warrior can cast "detect invis" now, his ass will be toast if someone sees him gathering.
My other thought is that the world will INSTANTLY wither away to nothing as the entire playbase suddenly 'gathers 50 land' whenever they want..
Yay ash! ;D
Having elementalist subguilds seems fine to me, just with limited potential like any other subguild. What's to stop a woman with 'rukkian blood' or whatever from forsaking their gifts and training as a warrior instead, able to throw only one or two spells around?
The Templarate. ^^
Quote from: Jingo on September 16, 2011, 07:51:36 PM
But I don't think spells would work if it isn't sorcery.
I disagree. It's the same idea as an elementalist, they've just been touched with less of their element. A Vivaduan will be a Vivaduan regardless of if they can only make water, or also do advanced spells that involve sacrificing babies. They'll still need a gem, because they're magick. They'll still be looked down at/feared/hated because they're magick. They might even be hated by other magickers, because they're more normal, or looked down upon, since they will never achieve the same level of power.
The only real change this makes is that guild sniffing becomes a lot harder (be it for Oash to hire the damn things so they can reach full potential, or for other organizations to figure out what they are by what skills they lack).
Quote from: Jingo on September 16, 2011, 07:51:36 PMI think some expanded psionic powers would be way sweeter than magicker subguilds.
That might be cool, if it was set an an appropriate Karma/CGP level. However, I'd think that ANYONE with any powers past "contact," "barrier," and "expel" would be considered just as bad and evil as a full psi. Your normal person is not going to realize there is any difference.
Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?
Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere
Quote from: Taven on September 16, 2011, 09:45:54 PM
It's the same idea as an elementalist, they've just been touched with less of their element.
Or you could play it as a--as far as anybody will ever know--full-potentialed elementalist who simply chose to spend all his time warrioring/rangering/making baskets. It's reasonable to suppose that there are a lot of such folks in the Elementalists' Quarter: they're cursed and marked and segregated, but they keep up their old life and trade as much as possible.
In the current world of Zalanthas, I don't think suddenly throwing in magickal subguilds would end very well - for anyone.
Maybe something for ARM 2.0, when everything's changed and everyone isn't in any one-set mentality about magick.
Holy moley; you know what's more interesting than magickal sub-guilds?
Quote from: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.htmlExtended subguilds include options such as "Master Tailor" which will allow a character to excel in the area of tailoring, including producing work at a mastercraft levell. For the more adventurous Cutpurse or Master of Defense might be more applicable. Subguilds will be available for those who wish to trade, craft, fight, roam or follow a path to magick.
Mundane subguilds with shield use, parry, or weapon skills. Put
that in your 'gicker and smoke it. Things is gettin' mixed up good.
I don't remember ever hearing an official "If you are touched by Vivadu, you will always have a full branched skill list and have the same spells available to you, no matter if you're PC, NPC, or vNPC."
I think its reasonable that some people were only "lightly brushed" by Vivadu, or Ruk, or whatever, but still have more potential in weaving baskets.
After all, thats what guild/subguild is. One is something you were born capable of doing, as Mario is a Plumber. The other is something you've worked hard to do, but would likely never master, as Joe the Plumber is a Plumber*.
* - Kudos to.... I think it was Shal that said that?
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 16, 2011, 10:23:28 PM
Holy moley; you know what's more interesting than magickal sub-guilds?
Quote from: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.htmlExtended subguilds include options such as "Master Tailor" which will allow a character to excel in the area of tailoring, including producing work at a mastercraft levell. For the more adventurous Cutpurse or Master of Defense might be more applicable. Subguilds will be available for those who wish to trade, craft, fight, roam or follow a path to magick.
Mundane subguilds with shield use, parry, or weapon skills. Put that in your 'gicker and smoke it. Things is gettin' mixed up good.
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 16, 2011, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 16, 2011, 10:23:28 PM
Holy moley; you know what's more interesting than magickal sub-guilds?
Quote from: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.htmlExtended subguilds include options such as "Master Tailor" which will allow a character to excel in the area of tailoring, including producing work at a mastercraft levell. For the more adventurous Cutpurse or Master of Defense might be more applicable. Subguilds will be available for those who wish to trade, craft, fight, roam or follow a path to magick.
Mundane subguilds with shield use, parry, or weapon skills. Put that in your 'gicker and smoke it. Things is gettin' mixed up good.
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
Who says you'll see them? They may get you before you see them......mabye a sub-guild with sneak.....
Quote from: Kol on September 16, 2011, 11:56:50 PM
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 16, 2011, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 16, 2011, 10:23:28 PM
Holy moley; you know what's more interesting than magickal sub-guilds?
Quote from: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.htmlExtended subguilds include options such as "Master Tailor" which will allow a character to excel in the area of tailoring, including producing work at a mastercraft levell. For the more adventurous Cutpurse or Master of Defense might be more applicable. Subguilds will be available for those who wish to trade, craft, fight, roam or follow a path to magick.
Mundane subguilds with shield use, parry, or weapon skills. Put that in your 'gicker and smoke it. Things is gettin' mixed up good.
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
Who says you'll see them? They may get you before you see them......mabye a sub-guild with sneak.....
Or just a d-elf...Yikes.
While I'm sure some testing and adjustments will also need to be made, I have no doubts that the imms wouldn't introduce anything unbalancing.
I think this change will be a good one. It certainly will make people more wary about magickers.
There's little about this game I could call balanced. That said most sub-guild skills notoriously suck ass.
Sorcerer subguilds would be cool.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 17, 2011, 12:46:31 AM
There's little about this game I could call balanced. That said most sub-guild skills notoriously suck ass.
Well, granted nothing is perfect, but I think that there's a strong effort to keep things reasonably balanced. Do I mean "balanced" as in every guild is perfectly even with another? No. But there are drawbacks and pluses for each guild (be it coded, RP requirements, or otherwise), that make things pretty reasonable. I don't think anything has been crazy unbalanced, at least not that I have noticed. You could start another thread on the balance of the game, or lack thereof, if you'd like.
I don't tend to use many subguilds, as it is. There's maybe three that I've ever really used to any extent.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 17, 2011, 12:50:27 AM
Sorcerer subguilds would be cool.
Sorcerer subguild wouldn't make any sense. What's to stop someone who learned magick from learning more magick? Whereas, an elementalist who was only kinda touched by an element seems plausible.
Anyway, I imagine the magicker subguilds will be a high karma toy, especially if you are mixing up an elementalist guild with an elementalist subguild. You have to pay a premium for the special subguild on top of paying for your class, so the Drovian/Krathi might end up costing 5 karma for main class and another 4 or 5 for the subguild. So... special app only, and then only if you are at the top of the karma food chain to begin with.
I'd be more interested in *not really magickers* subguilds, like a Witchhunter with the permanent ability to detect invisibility and enchantments, or a Cave Dweller with perma-infravision.
Quote from: number13 on September 17, 2011, 01:44:30 AM
I'd be more interested in *not really magickers* subguilds, like a Witchhunter with the permanent ability to detect invisibility and enchantments, or a Cave Dweller with perma-infravision.
Um... is it just me, or does it seem kind of silly to have a witchhunter with abilities that are, literally, by their very nature... magickal?
Quote from: number13 on September 17, 2011, 01:44:30 AM
Sorcerer subguild wouldn't make any sense. What's to stop someone who learned magick from learning more magick?
What's to stop someone who learned archery from learning more archery? Oh, their subguild hunter archery cap.
Seems like apples to apples, donut?
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 17, 2011, 12:50:27 AM
Sorcerer subguilds would be cool.
These would be badass. And logical. According to the helpfiles, there are 4 different paths to choose from. Someone not interested in anything but enchanting? Why not? Makes sense they might want to try the path of enchantment, warmongering raider? Why would they care about creation or movement? etc.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 17, 2011, 02:40:18 AM
Quote from: number13 on September 17, 2011, 01:44:30 AM
I'd be more interested in *not really magickers* subguilds, like a Witchhunter with the permanent ability to detect invisibility and enchantments, or a Cave Dweller with perma-infravision.
Um... is it just me, or does it seem kind of silly to have a witchhunter with abilities that are, literally, by their very nature... magickal?
Not at all. Why is that silly? Seems like a great concept for a breed of some sort, with psychotic tendencies and self mutilation for flavor.
Quote from: number13 on September 17, 2011, 01:44:30 AM...so the Drovian/Krathi might end up costing 5 karma for main class and another 4 or 5 for the subguild....
I'm pretty sure that a Drovian/Krathi would be made impossible. I don't think this subguild will change the game in any major way, such as having elementalists having access to spells that they normally would not.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 17, 2011, 02:46:44 AM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 17, 2011, 02:40:18 AM
Quote from: number13 on September 17, 2011, 01:44:30 AM
I'd be more interested in *not really magickers* subguilds, like a Witchhunter with the permanent ability to detect invisibility and enchantments, or a Cave Dweller with perma-infravision.
Um... is it just me, or does it seem kind of silly to have a witchhunter with abilities that are, literally, by their very nature... magickal?
Not at all. Why is that silly? Seems like a great concept for a breed of some sort, with psychotic tendencies and self mutilation for flavor.
Well, you could do that already, just actually use a guild magicker to do so. You can hunt others to yourself to your heart's content. Otherwise, I can't see any magick-like effects going in, but being non-magickal. Why be a magicker at all then? It would also alter the game significantly.
I just read that three times and have no idea what you're saying. Mind rewording it a bit? I'm not drunk I swear.
Quote from: number13 on September 17, 2011, 01:44:30 AM
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 17, 2011, 12:50:27 AM
Sorcerer subguilds would be cool.
Sorcerer subguild wouldn't make any sense. What's to stop someone who learned magick from learning more magick? Whereas, an elementalist who was only kinda touched by an element seems plausible.
What's to stop a subguild tailor from learning to be a master tailor?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 17, 2011, 03:14:51 AM
I just read that three times and have no idea what you're saying. Mind rewording it a bit? I'm not drunk I swear.
Okay, the conversation was as follows: (yes, I am paraphrasing)
Number13: It would be cool if there was a witch hunter type subguild, that had magickal-like abilities, without them being magick.
AmandaGreathouse: It's silly to have a witch hunter guild, since the abilities you mentioned are by their nature magickal.
RogueGunslinger: No, it doesn't seem silly at all, you could do a crazy, masochistic breed PC.
So then my last post was:
Taven: Why don't you just make a crazy, masochistic breed PC as a magicker guild PC? Or a subguild magick PC? They could hunt others like themselves, and hate themselves, and all would be good. I don't think staff would put in abilities that were magick-like but not magick. If you could do that, why would people play magickers?
Admittedly my last post doesn't seem to be especially readable (for example "you can hunt others to yourself to your heart's content" sounds like a Cerelumism), but my excuse is that it's around 3am. I am a little tired.
You could have a witchhunter guild that could detect aura's. See if someone is a witch or not. Like a kind of third sight. Not necissarily detect invis or things like that but more vague. And / or boosted magickal resistance.
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 16, 2011, 11:35:28 PM
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
... You haven't seen those? Where have you been? ;)
Quote from: musashi on September 17, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 16, 2011, 11:35:28 PM
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
... You haven't seen those? Where have you been? ;)
*cringes*
Quote from: musashi on September 17, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 16, 2011, 11:35:28 PM
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
... You haven't seen those? Where have you been? ;)
Yeah I've been meaning to either send in a complaint to nerf or to make one of my own and PK like crazy to get them nerfed...
Quote from: Dakota on September 17, 2011, 06:07:36 AM
Quote from: musashi on September 17, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 16, 2011, 11:35:28 PM
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
... You haven't seen those? Where have you been? ;)
Yeah I've been meaning to either send in a complaint to nerf or to make one of my own and PK like crazy to get them nerfed...
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo on :-*
<3 u musashi
Love you too.
Quote from: Dakota on September 17, 2011, 05:23:23 AM
You could have a witchhunter guild that could detect aura's. See if someone is a witch or not. Like a kind of third sight. Not necissarily detect invis or things like that but more vague. And / or boosted magickal resistance.
There's already something for that. That is a supernatural ability. And if off/def won't have boosts, why would they offer boosts for magick resistance?
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 17, 2011, 06:50:19 AM
Quote from: Dakota on September 17, 2011, 05:23:23 AM
You could have a witchhunter guild that could detect aura's. See if someone is a witch or not. Like a kind of third sight. Not necissarily detect invis or things like that but more vague. And / or boosted magickal resistance.
There's already something for that. That is a supernatural ability. And if off/def won't have boosts, why would they offer boosts for magick resistance?
RE: witch hunter subclass or a subclass that can -see- if someone is a witch or not - Yes but it would be neat if a few magicky subs would get added in, that a sub would get added in, not to counter them per-say but to give some PCs the ability to tell if someone is or isn't a witch via sight (through the subclass)
RE: bc I wasn't thinking about magick res in terms of combat or in the karma spending to boost something in character gen, but more or less something gained from the subclass.
If you want to see if someone's magick, use a magick spell that would allow you that ability. This "I can sense the presence of magick in a coded, concrete way but oh no -I'm- not magick, silly!" is kind of crap. You're either 'gick, or you're not. Doesn't matter what sort of access you have to the spell tree at large. Anyone that gathers mana at will is a sorcerer no matter what their spell tree is like.
I'm sure these subguild additions aren't meant to make magick somehow more tolerable because someone's not a "real" 'gicker. Just because someone's skills may make them only part-way magick doesn't mean that they aren't magick as far as the game world is concerned.
The idea of a sorcerer subguild makes me a little wary, I'll admit. Even if you're restricted to one path of magick, that's a shit load of useful magick. Personally, due to the nature of how that works and how it's in the game world, I would hope a thing like that would be spec app only, honestly.
Quote from: Zoltan on September 17, 2011, 08:45:29 AM
If you want to see if someone's magick, use a magick spell that would allow you that ability. This "I can sense the presence of magick in a coded, concrete way but oh no -I'm- not magick, silly!" is kind of crap. You're either 'gick, or you're not
That's PRECISELY what I was getting at. There's a reason people are afraid of magick and magick was able to break the world. In many cases, it's the trump card. You can do things to try to circumvent it, but if you're trying to play ball with it, in most cases, it takes magick in and of itself. So involving D&D-like spell-like abilities which don't exist elsewhere in the world is just kind of...silly.
Quote from: Zoltan on September 17, 2011, 08:45:29 AM
I'm sure these subguild additions aren't meant to make magick somehow more tolerable because someone's not a "real" 'gicker. Just because someone's skills may make them only part-way magick doesn't mean that they aren't magick as far as the game world is concerned.
I tried to say this in another thread, but this is more on point and better stated.
yea basically I read that whole 'magick-like abilities without really being magickal' as a mundane (pardon the pun) attempt at gaining an upper hand on 'gikers in general.
Ungemmed Wild Ruk sneaks through a city for supplies/make sales/try to do whatever it is he do...
Joe the Plumber with his whatever-reason detect-magick (maybe to tell if the rats will cast on him?) happens to see him and starts shouting for Templars and Guards.
Templar: How did you know he was a wiggler?
Joe : I detected his magick with my natural abilities.
Templar : ....
Later, Joe has a new job as leashed magick sniffer for the Templorate. Wearing his own shiny gem.
Also, game world would likely consider any 'innate magick-like abilities' as just new forms of psionics which is treated just as bad, if not worse for the most part, than magickers. Probably just lead to getting deaded since gems (afaik) don't hinder psi's.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on September 16, 2011, 10:17:00 PM
In the current world of Zalanthas, I don't think suddenly throwing in magickal subguilds would end very well - for anyone.
Maybe something for ARM 2.0, when everything's changed and everyone isn't in any one-set mentality about magick.
Yeah I kinda feel the same way about that since magick's supposed to be rare and the new karma system is supposed to help -keep- it rare right? Seems with this being introduced so mundane guilds can get the magick subguilds, that they could be more of an increase of people touched with magick even if not able to reach full potential like a guild magicker. So it could result in lots more gemmed if they get discovered and some more killings if they're playing in another certain area.
I can see it being lots of awesome fun and the potential to roleplay someone who manifests with a little magick and can hide it better because of a mundane guild but I guess it seems really odd to me to just put it in like this. Maybe in a world where magick was a little more accepted if Arm 2.0 allows such. Just my personal view on it.
Edited to add: Maybe if some HRPT happened that would reflect a change happening that affects the world like previous HRPTs, I guess in my mind it wouldn't feel like it was just put into the game. But I guess that can cause it's own problems too.
Who's to say the magick subguilds won't cost a piss-ton of karma points though?
I think it'll balance out nicely, but we can only wait and see.
If it does cost a butt-load, then that's fair enough so every man-jack doesn't get and it keeps magick rare but as you say, Qzzrbl, we'll wait and see. Was just my own opinion on it as everyone was sharing views. :)
I have a fear that magick subguilds will create more "exceptions" to documentation than is feasible to accurately portray believable Zalanthan culture. Sure, it makes quite a lot of sense to have them--but the division between "you're a dirty wiggler" is supported by the fact that they also are seen codedly as only being able to wreck havoc with magick. Subs might misdirect peoples' fear priorities, because codedly they understand said subguild wiggler is only "so powerful" with magick. There's always a counter-culture movement of gemmer loving following every spurt of gemmer hate to consider, too.
When we have a system, like in 2.arm, where you can't really register how powerful someone is codedly--it won't become an issue. As for the future responses of "our players are more mature than to guild sniff magick subguilds": :D
Quote from: boog on September 16, 2011, 10:04:12 PM
Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?
Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere
You mean bards from Allanak.
No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage.
Quote from: Is Friday on September 17, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
I have a fear that magick subguilds will create more "exceptions" to documentation than is feasible to accurately portray believable Zalanthan culture. Sure, it makes quite a lot of sense to have them--but the division between "you're a dirty wiggler" is supported by the fact that they also are seen codedly as only being able to wreck havoc with magick. Subs might misdirect peoples' fear priorities, because codedly they understand said subguild wiggler is only "so powerful" with magick. There's always a counter-culture movement of gemmer loving following every spurt of gemmer hate to consider, too.
When we have a system, like in 2.arm, where you can't really register how powerful someone is codedly--it won't become an issue. As for the future responses of "our players are more mature than to guild sniff magick subguilds": :D
Yeah one of my fears with this is the increased level of toleration for it, it's what I mainly don't like about it just being introduced like that. I know it'd do well in Arm 2.0 for sure where things are different but I guess I'm still wanting to keep Zalanthan culture the way it is now, magick hating with some fear and it not becoming that people go "Oh that's my friend who kinda realizes she can see invisible things but it's okay, she's really a merchant so no biggie."
Ill be throwing complaints if people dont treat subguild magick as 'real' magick. These characters are filthy wigglers, and I think the new subguild option will allow reliable players to easily play more interesting gickers, rather than more powerful mundanes.
I think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.
A sort of wild talent subguild would be interesting. Giving random elementalist abilities or maybe even psionic abilities for humans.
Quote from: Zoltan on September 17, 2011, 08:45:29 AM
If you want to see if someone's magick, use a magick spell that would allow you that ability. This "I can sense the presence of magick in a coded, concrete way but oh no -I'm- not magick, silly!" is kind of crap. You're either 'gick, or you're not. Doesn't matter what sort of access you have to the spell tree at large. Anyone that gathers mana at will is a sorcerer no matter what their spell tree is like.
This whole "I can sense magick but I'm not a magicker thing ..." ... ... ... is already in game.
Quote from: Feco on September 17, 2011, 01:44:04 PMI think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.
I do agree with you on that, but I think people are (correct me if I am wrong), more concerned about the non-mundanes. It's sometimes hard to feel hated as a magicker PC, because so many people are either A ) actually okay with being your friend or B ) willing to pretend to be okay with being your friend, to get X. The concern is that with these subguilds, people will act more like option A, even if the subguild mage themselves is behaving correctly. It can also be hard to complain about such things, because every PC is unique and may have reasons for doing so. It just becomes an issue when too many PCs are "Special" to the point where they defy documentation.
I think that self-policing, and having your PC act appropriately if they see others acting odd will do wonders. I'd also like to say that players deciding to do something can make a big difference. Does anyone remember the great karma off? People didn't like how many magickers there were, or how positively they were being treated, and so they gave up their karma (which they could ask for back, if they wanted) as a show against this. A lot of people participated.
Quote from: marko on September 17, 2011, 01:35:36 PM
Quote from: boog on September 16, 2011, 10:04:12 PM
Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?
Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere
You mean bards from Allanak.
No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage.
No, it's not magick, it's magick-like, so it's okay. :P
I always wanted to play a "superspy" type of character, who had every possible stealth and perception skill in the game. No combat skills, no utility skills, maybe just one crafting skill other than cooking to keep me from being bored when everyone's behind closed doors mudsexing and I just can't take any more silken thighs and satin skin.
Imagine a karma option like that...
listen/scan/sneak/hide
forage/climb/hunt
detect magic
detect invis
ranger vision
and whatever other magick and psionic detection abilities exist.
boost to psi with lowered stun drain, so that you can warn your Kurac sergeant that the undead invisible mantis clutch is on its way through the tremendous sandstorm, at night, with no moons, and is heading east.
Nilazi already can pretty much 'witch hunt'. So I imagine a sub that includes some of their abilities would cover those bases. Also I imagine that magick subs would be at least 4CGP.
Quote from: Taven on September 17, 2011, 01:51:16 PM
Quote from: Feco on September 17, 2011, 01:44:04 PMI think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.
I do agree with you on that, but I think people are (correct me if I am wrong), more concerned about the non-mundanes. It's sometimes hard to feel hated as a magicker PC, because so many people are either A ) actually okay with being your friend or B ) willing to pretend to be okay with being your friend, to get X. The concern is that with these subguilds, people will act more like option A, even if the subguild mage themselves is behaving correctly. It can also be hard to complain about such things, because every PC is unique and may have reasons for doing so. It just becomes an issue when too many PCs are "Special" to the point where they defy documentation.
I think that self-policing, and having your PC act appropriately if they see others acting odd will do wonders. I'd also like to say that players deciding to do something can make a big difference. Does anyone remember the great karma off? People didn't like how many magickers there were, or how positively they were being treated, and so they gave up their karma (which they could ask for back, if they wanted) as a show against this. A lot of people participated.
Quote from: marko on September 17, 2011, 01:35:36 PM
Quote from: boog on September 16, 2011, 10:04:12 PM
Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?
Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere
You mean bards from Allanak.
No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage.
No, it's not magick, it's magick-like, so it's okay. :P
In Allanak, stinky trash would come out of their fingertips. :)
Quote from: boog on September 17, 2011, 03:20:37 PM
Quote from: Taven on September 17, 2011, 01:51:16 PM
Quote from: Feco on September 17, 2011, 01:44:04 PMI think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.
I do agree with you on that, but I think people are (correct me if I am wrong), more concerned about the non-mundanes. It's sometimes hard to feel hated as a magicker PC, because so many people are either A ) actually okay with being your friend or B ) willing to pretend to be okay with being your friend, to get X. The concern is that with these subguilds, people will act more like option A, even if the subguild mage themselves is behaving correctly. It can also be hard to complain about such things, because every PC is unique and may have reasons for doing so. It just becomes an issue when too many PCs are "Special" to the point where they defy documentation.
I think that self-policing, and having your PC act appropriately if they see others acting odd will do wonders. I'd also like to say that players deciding to do something can make a big difference. Does anyone remember the great karma off? People didn't like how many magickers there were, or how positively they were being treated, and so they gave up their karma (which they could ask for back, if they wanted) as a show against this. A lot of people participated.
Quote from: marko on September 17, 2011, 01:35:36 PM
Quote from: boog on September 16, 2011, 10:04:12 PM
Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?
Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere
You mean bards from Allanak.
No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage.
No, it's not magick, it's magick-like, so it's okay. :P
In Allanak, stinky trash would come out of their fingertips. :)
In Tuluk it would be rainbows. Would Tulukis considered that to be magick or normal?
Since people bring up the docs, I would like to point this section out.
QuoteTrue magick, as sorcery is sometimes known, is strictly outlawed in all the Known World, and has been even since the days of the Empire of Man. Some few people still strive to learn a spell or two, always hiding their ability. However, there are still some others who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magick. These individuals are called sorcerers (the term 'mage' has always been used in a general sense, to refer to anyone who possesses magickal ability).
The bolded section shows that people that learn a couple spells would not actually be unheard of, They are not known as sorcerers though it is still sorcery and punishable by death of course.
I for one do not mind the idea that it might actually be represented in the future PC population.
As for people that worry about balance.
I can think of many ways to limit magickal subguilds, and if I can, I am sure staff can.
believe me, if a sub called "touched by viv" got say 4-6 of the starting spells of a viv that started at 1/4 the level that an actual viv did and maxed at half the max was possible, it would be far from overpowered. And I am sure if Morg wanted to he could put it in so that such PCs regened mana at say 1/4 rate. Or, if they had to gather, a max gather skill of 1/4 that a sorc gets.
I honestly think it would be cool if subs got a spattering of spells, possibly even one or two past t1, that capped at lower levels and was tailored to the sub.
Most of these "concerns" could be addressed by magickal subclasses costing the same as the original magickal class, or more.
However, before we get all "up in arms" about it, let's wait and see what staff has come up with.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 17, 2011, 03:28:15 PM
In Tuluk it would be rainbows. Would Tulukis considered that to be magick or normal?
That would only be normal if they were
_subtle_ rainbows.
QuoteI honestly think it would be cool if subs got a spattering of spells, possibly even one or two past t1, that capped at lower levels and was tailored to the sub.
That would be very hard to balance I think. And push too far into the realm of sorcerer as well.
Much simpler and easier to balance subclass versions of elementalists. Of course, if the mana regen was choked back enough, along with low caps...Meh, you could give somebody the full sorcerer tree for all I care. If it took 3 RL hours to regen two casts worth of mana it would not matter, specially if you failed your casts 3 of 4 tries.
I played a special app once that was a full-guild mundane class plus some spells.
It was really problematic to get me started in the first place, because there wasn't any code to support it, and nessalin had to hack some code together to support mana regen. Maybe they've fixed this by now.
However, I will say that it was incredibly overpowered, even though the entire concept had very little to do with combat.
On the other hand, the only place I could hang out was the 'rinth, so I imagine it would've been incredibly boring as well, if there hadn't been major stuff happening in the 'rinth at that time.
Another thing I'd like to point out.
Anybody who will be able to play a PC with a special sub of any kind will be karma and likely already able to play anything from viv to sorc. So, being that people with karma, IE already trusted, still will be the only ones able to play such roles. I doubt there will be this sudden surge of noticable magick in the game, In fact, I think it will greatly reduce the amount of noticable magick since people who otherwise would have to play a straight mage, and let us face it, a gemmed mage or any other elementalist is pretty in your face, Will have to keep the abilities hidden.
And I've played mundanes with extra special abilities as well. They are no more over powered then many of the existing high karma classes.
I am sure there have been many others as well, most of which the general playerbase never even knows about or do not know till long after the fact. So I think over all, most the high karma players who have had "Special" PCs in the past have done a responsible job of playing them.
I do not expect that to change.
Quote from: X-D on September 17, 2011, 04:42:58 PM
Since people bring up the docs, I would like to point this section out.
QuoteTrue magick, as sorcery is sometimes known, is strictly outlawed in all the Known World, and has been even since the days of the Empire of Man. Some few people still strive to learn a spell or two, always hiding their ability. However, there are still some others who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magick. These individuals are called sorcerers (the term 'mage' has always been used in a general sense, to refer to anyone who possesses magickal ability).
The bolded section shows that people that learn a couple spells would not actually be unheard of, They are not known as sorcerers though it is still sorcery and punishable by death of course.
I for one do not mind the idea that it might actually be represented in the future PC population.
As for people that worry about balance.
I can think of many ways to limit magickal subguilds, and if I can, I am sure staff can.
believe me, if a sub called "touched by viv" got say 4-6 of the starting spells of a viv that started at 1/4 the level that an actual viv did and maxed at half the max was possible, it would be far from overpowered. And I am sure if Morg wanted to he could put it in so that such PCs regened mana at say 1/4 rate. Or, if they had to gather, a max gather skill of 1/4 that a sorc gets.
Not to mention that if I were a dedicated, full-on sorcerer... someone dabbling in a couple spells and being called a sorcerer would probably piss me off. A pride thing.
Mundane that can sense magick? As was pointed out, it's already IG. Find out IG.
Sounds to me like it's now possible for all those dwarf loving players to realize their dreams and finally be able to create the Dwarven Avatar of Zalanthas: The Reaper.
Quote from: musashi on September 17, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 16, 2011, 11:35:28 PM
yeah, a krathi who's also good in a straight fight, can't wait to see them running around
... You haven't seen those? Where have you been? ;)
Maybe now people will actually fear magickers, instead of resort to "hmm, I can probably 2-hit them before they can cast their spell" type tactics.
I'm all for magicker sub-guilds. The documentation clearly says most people may learn a spell or two but generally will stop there.
To be fair, it says "some few" Not most.
Quote from: X-D on September 20, 2011, 04:34:25 PM
To be fair, it says "some few" Not most.
Fair enough :)
I'd go as far as to say make all elementalism into subguilds. The current elementalist roles assume you've done nothing but learn magick your whole life.
Hopefully, that pitfall can be remedied in 2.0.
... I personally never had the balls to jump a gicker whether I had an inkling it was on day 1 or day 50. Too scared.
yeah dude.. Gickers are scary..
... And now they're scarier. That guy who just casted 'mon un shrink ur ballz' you? He's a 150 day warrior baby.
Quote from: Saellyn on September 29, 2011, 08:36:44 AM
... And now they're scarier. That guy who just casted 'mon un shrink ur ballz' you? He's a 150 day warrior baby.
Maybe I'm naive but I guess my thought is that the players who would be really drawn to this (not power-players, they'll be put down soon enough) will be the players who want to play _average_ PCs. PCs who struggle to stay within the "regular" society even though they find themselves cursed with foul magic.
Quote from: My 2 sids on September 29, 2011, 09:02:31 AM
Quote from: Saellyn on September 29, 2011, 08:36:44 AM
... And now they're scarier. That guy who just casted 'mon un shrink ur ballz' you? He's a 150 day warrior baby.
Maybe I'm naive but I guess my thought is that the players who would be really drawn to this (not power-players, they'll be put down soon enough) will be the players who want to play _average_ PCs. PCs who struggle to stay within the "regular" society even though they find themselves cursed with foul magic.
I guess you've never met a Krathi in game :D
(I'm joking of course).
Heh, seriously ... if you think a krathi needs warrior skills to be a hellish monster in melee you're dooooooooing it wrong ;)
I'd spend my karma subguild points on being a master basket weaver!
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2011, 07:28:28 PM
Heh, seriously ... if you think a krathi needs warrior skills to be a hellish monster in melee you're dooooooooing it wrong ;)
I'd spend my karma subguild points on being a master basket weaver!
Obviously. Duh.
:P