Magickal sub-guilds?

[Barzalene]

I'm sure these subguild additions aren't meant to make magick somehow more tolerable because someone's not a "real" 'gicker. Just because someone's skills may make them only part-way magick doesn't mean that they aren't magick as far as the game world is concerned.

I tried to say this in another thread, but this is more on point and better stated.

[CravenMadness]

yea basically I read that whole 'magick-like abilities without really being magickal' as a mundane (pardon the pun) attempt at gaining an upper hand on 'gikers in general.

Ungemmed Wild Ruk sneaks through a city for supplies/make sales/try to do whatever it is he do...

Joe the Plumber with his whatever-reason detect-magick (maybe to tell if the rats will cast on him?) happens to see him and starts shouting for Templars and Guards.

Templar: How did you know he was a wiggler?

Joe : I detected his magick with my natural abilities.

Templar :  ....

Later, Joe has a new job as leashed magick sniffer for the Templorate.  Wearing his own shiny gem.

Also, game world would likely consider any 'innate magick-like abilities' as just new forms of psionics which is treated just as bad, if not worse for the most part, than magickers.  Probably just lead to getting deaded since gems (afaik) don't hinder psi's.

[Kassindra]

In the current world of Zalanthas, I don't think suddenly throwing in magickal subguilds would end very well - for anyone.

Maybe something for ARM 2.0, when everything's changed and everyone isn't in any one-set mentality about magick.

Yeah I kinda feel the same way about that since magick's supposed to be rare and the new karma system is supposed to help -keep- it rare right? Seems with this being introduced so mundane guilds can get the magick subguilds, that they could be more of an increase of people touched with magick even if not able to reach full potential like a guild magicker. So it could result in lots more gemmed if they get discovered and some more killings if they're playing in another certain area.

I can see it being lots of awesome fun and the potential to roleplay someone who manifests with a little magick and can hide it better because of a mundane guild but I guess it seems really odd to me to just put it in like this. Maybe in a world where magick was a little more accepted if Arm 2.0 allows such. Just my personal view on it.

Edited to add: Maybe if some HRPT happened that would reflect a change happening that affects the world like previous HRPTs, I guess in my mind it wouldn't feel like it was just put into the game. But I guess that can cause it's own problems too.

[Qzzrbl]

Who's to say the magick subguilds won't cost a piss-ton of karma points though?

I think it'll balance out nicely, but we can only wait and see.

[Kassindra]

If it does cost a butt-load, then that's fair enough so every man-jack doesn't get and it keeps magick rare but as you say, Qzzrbl, we'll wait and see. Was just my own opinion on it as everyone was sharing views.

[Is Friday]

I have a fear that magick subguilds will create more "exceptions" to documentation than is feasible to accurately portray believable Zalanthan culture. Sure, it makes quite a lot of sense to have them--but the division between "you're a dirty wiggler" is supported by the fact that they also are seen codedly as only being able to wreck havoc with magick. Subs might misdirect peoples' fear priorities, because codedly they understand said subguild wiggler is only "so powerful" with magick. There's always a counter-culture movement of gemmer loving following every spurt of gemmer hate to consider, too.

When we have a system, like in 2.arm, where you can't really register how powerful someone is codedly--it won't become an issue. As for the future responses of "our players are more mature than to guild sniff magick subguilds": 

[marko]

Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?

Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere

You mean bards from Allanak.

No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage.  

[Kassindra]

I have a fear that magick subguilds will create more "exceptions" to documentation than is feasible to accurately portray believable Zalanthan culture. Sure, it makes quite a lot of sense to have them--but the division between "you're a dirty wiggler" is supported by the fact that they also are seen codedly as only being able to wreck havoc with magick. Subs might misdirect peoples' fear priorities, because codedly they understand said subguild wiggler is only "so powerful" with magick. There's always a counter-culture movement of gemmer loving following every spurt of gemmer hate to consider, too.

When we have a system, like in 2.arm, where you can't really register how powerful someone is codedly--it won't become an issue. As for the future responses of "our players are more mature than to guild sniff magick subguilds": 

Yeah one of my fears with this is the increased level of toleration for it, it's what I mainly don't like about it just being introduced like that. I know it'd do well in Arm 2.0 for sure where things are different but I guess I'm still wanting to keep Zalanthan culture the way it is now, magick hating with some fear and it not becoming that people go "Oh that's my friend who kinda realizes she can see invisible things but it's okay, she's really a merchant so no biggie."

[Feco]

Ill be throwing complaints if people dont treat subguild magick as 'real' magick.  These characters are filthy wigglers, and I think the new subguild option will allow reliable players to easily play more interesting gickers, rather than more powerful mundanes.

I think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.

[EldritchOrigins]

A sort of wild talent subguild would be interesting.  Giving random elementalist abilities or maybe even psionic abilities for humans.

[musashi]

If you want to see if someone's magick, use a magick spell that would allow you that ability. This "I can sense the presence of magick in a coded, concrete way but oh no -I'm- not magick, silly!" is kind of crap. You're either 'gick, or you're not. Doesn't matter what sort of access you have to the spell tree at large. Anyone that gathers mana at will is a sorcerer no matter what their spell tree is like.

This whole "I can sense magick but I'm not a magicker thing ..." ... ... ... is already in game.

[Taven]

I think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.

I do agree with you on that, but I think people are (correct me if I am wrong), more concerned about the non-mundanes. It's sometimes hard to feel hated as a magicker PC, because so many people are either A ) actually okay with being your friend or B ) willing to pretend to be okay with being your friend, to get X. The concern is that with these subguilds, people will act more like option A, even if the subguild mage themselves is behaving correctly. It can also be hard to complain about such things, because every PC is unique and may have reasons for doing so. It just becomes an issue when too many PCs are "Special" to the point where they defy documentation.

I think that self-policing, and having your PC act appropriately if they see others acting odd will do wonders. I'd also like to say that players deciding to do something can make a big difference. Does anyone remember the great karma off? People didn't like how many magickers there were, or how positively they were being treated, and so they gave up their karma (which they could ask for back, if they wanted) as a show against this. A lot of people participated.

Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?

Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere

You mean bards from Allanak.

No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage. 

No, it's not magick, it's magick-like, so it's okay. 

[Lizzie]

I always wanted to play a "superspy" type of character, who had every possible stealth and perception skill in the game. No combat skills, no utility skills, maybe just one crafting skill other than cooking to keep me from being bored when everyone's behind closed doors mudsexing and I just can't take any more silken thighs and satin skin.

Imagine a karma option like that...

listen/scan/sneak/hide
forage/climb/hunt
detect magic
detect invis
ranger vision
and whatever other magick and psionic detection abilities exist.
boost to psi with lowered stun drain, so that you can warn your Kurac sergeant that the undead invisible mantis clutch is on its way through the tremendous sandstorm, at night, with no moons, and is heading east.

[Down Under]

Nilazi already can pretty much 'witch hunt'. So I imagine a sub that includes some of their abilities would cover those bases. Also I imagine that magick subs would be at least 4CGP.

[boog]

I think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.

I do agree with you on that, but I think people are (correct me if I am wrong), more concerned about the non-mundanes. It's sometimes hard to feel hated as a magicker PC, because so many people are either A ) actually okay with being your friend or B ) willing to pretend to be okay with being your friend, to get X. The concern is that with these subguilds, people will act more like option A, even if the subguild mage themselves is behaving correctly. It can also be hard to complain about such things, because every PC is unique and may have reasons for doing so. It just becomes an issue when too many PCs are "Special" to the point where they defy documentation.

I think that self-policing, and having your PC act appropriately if they see others acting odd will do wonders. I'd also like to say that players deciding to do something can make a big difference. Does anyone remember the great karma off? People didn't like how many magickers there were, or how positively they were being treated, and so they gave up their karma (which they could ask for back, if they wanted) as a show against this. A lot of people participated.

Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?

Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere

You mean bards from Allanak.

No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage. 

No, it's not magick, it's magick-like, so it's okay. 

In Allanak, stinky trash would come out of their fingertips.

[EldritchOrigins]

I think it'll be fun, and as long as a player has the karma, they should be trusted to play correctly.

I do agree with you on that, but I think people are (correct me if I am wrong), more concerned about the non-mundanes. It's sometimes hard to feel hated as a magicker PC, because so many people are either A ) actually okay with being your friend or B ) willing to pretend to be okay with being your friend, to get X. The concern is that with these subguilds, people will act more like option A, even if the subguild mage themselves is behaving correctly. It can also be hard to complain about such things, because every PC is unique and may have reasons for doing so. It just becomes an issue when too many PCs are "Special" to the point where they defy documentation.

I think that self-policing, and having your PC act appropriately if they see others acting odd will do wonders. I'd also like to say that players deciding to do something can make a big difference. Does anyone remember the great karma off? People didn't like how many magickers there were, or how positively they were being treated, and so they gave up their karma (which they could ask for back, if they wanted) as a show against this. A lot of people participated.

Can I please have a magickal subguild that will allow me to poof glitter out of my fingertips?

Thanks a bunch,
Bards Everywhere

You mean bards from Allanak.

No self-respecting Tuluki bard would go for that ostentatious garbage.  

No, it's not magick, it's magick-like, so it's okay.  

In Allanak, stinky trash would come out of their fingertips.

In Tuluk it would be rainbows.  Would Tulukis considered that to be magick or normal?

[X-D]

Since people bring up the docs, I would like to point this section out.

True magick, as sorcery is sometimes known, is strictly outlawed in all the Known World, and has been even since the days of the Empire of Man. Some few people still strive to learn a spell or two, always hiding their ability. However, there are still some others who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magick. These individuals are called sorcerers (the term 'mage' has always been used in a general sense, to refer to anyone who possesses magickal ability).

The bolded section shows that people that learn a couple spells would not actually be unheard of, They are not known as sorcerers though it is still sorcery and punishable by death of course.

I for one do not mind the idea that it might actually be represented in the future PC population.

As for people that worry about balance.

I can think of many ways to limit magickal subguilds, and if I can, I am sure staff can.

believe me, if a sub called "touched by viv" got say 4-6 of the starting spells of a viv that started at 1/4 the level that an actual viv did and maxed at half the max was possible, it would be far from overpowered. And I am sure if Morg wanted to he could put it in so that such PCs regened mana at say 1/4 rate. Or, if they had to gather, a max gather skill of 1/4 that a sorc gets.

[Down Under]

I honestly think it would be cool if subs got a spattering of spells, possibly even one or two past t1, that capped at lower levels and was tailored to the sub.

[Morrolan]

Most of these "concerns" could be addressed by magickal subclasses costing the same as the original magickal class, or more.

However, before we get all "up in arms" about it, let's wait and see what staff has come up with.

[marko]

In Tuluk it would be rainbows.  Would Tulukis considered that to be magick or normal?

That would only be normal if they were _subtle_ rainbows.

[X-D]

I honestly think it would be cool if subs got a spattering of spells, possibly even one or two past t1, that capped at lower levels and was tailored to the sub.

That would be very hard to balance I think. And push too far into the realm of sorcerer as well.

Much simpler and easier to balance subclass versions of elementalists. Of course, if the mana regen was choked back enough, along with low caps...Meh, you could give somebody the full sorcerer tree for all I care. If it took 3 RL hours to regen two casts worth of mana it would not matter, specially if you failed your casts 3 of 4 tries.

[Synthesis]

I played a special app once that was a full-guild mundane class plus some spells.

It was really problematic to get me started in the first place, because there wasn't any code to support it, and nessalin had to hack some code together to support mana regen.  Maybe they've fixed this by now.

However, I will say that it was incredibly overpowered, even though the entire concept had very little to do with combat.

On the other hand, the only place I could hang out was the 'rinth, so I imagine it would've been incredibly boring as well, if there hadn't been major stuff happening in the 'rinth at that time.

[X-D]

Another thing I'd like to point out.

Anybody who will be able to play a PC with a special sub of any kind will be karma and likely already able to play anything from viv to sorc. So, being that people with karma, IE already trusted, still will be the only ones able to play such roles. I doubt there will be this sudden surge of noticable magick in the game, In fact, I think it will greatly reduce the amount of noticable magick since people who otherwise would have to play a straight mage, and let us face it, a gemmed mage or any other elementalist is pretty in your face, Will have to keep the abilities hidden.

And I've played mundanes with extra special abilities as well. They are no more over powered then many of the existing high karma classes.

I am sure there have been many others as well, most of which the general playerbase never even knows about or do not know till long after the fact. So I think over all, most the high karma players who have had "Special" PCs in the past have done a responsible job of playing them.

I do not expect that to change.

[Dan]

Since people bring up the docs, I would like to point this section out.

True magick, as sorcery is sometimes known, is strictly outlawed in all the Known World, and has been even since the days of the Empire of Man. Some few people still strive to learn a spell or two, always hiding their ability. However, there are still some others who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magick. These individuals are called sorcerers (the term 'mage' has always been used in a general sense, to refer to anyone who possesses magickal ability).

The bolded section shows that people that learn a couple spells would not actually be unheard of, They are not known as sorcerers though it is still sorcery and punishable by death of course.

I for one do not mind the idea that it might actually be represented in the future PC population.

As for people that worry about balance.

I can think of many ways to limit magickal subguilds, and if I can, I am sure staff can.

believe me, if a sub called "touched by viv" got say 4-6 of the starting spells of a viv that started at 1/4 the level that an actual viv did and maxed at half the max was possible, it would be far from overpowered. And I am sure if Morg wanted to he could put it in so that such PCs regened mana at say 1/4 rate. Or, if they had to gather, a max gather skill of 1/4 that a sorc gets.

Not to mention that if I were a dedicated, full-on sorcerer... someone dabbling in a couple spells and being called a sorcerer would probably piss me off. A pride thing.

[Pale Horse]

Mundane that can sense magick?  As was pointed out, it's already IG.  Find out IG.

Sounds to me like it's now possible for all those dwarf loving players to realize their dreams and finally be able to create the Dwarven Avatar of Zalanthas: The Reaper.