I think sometimes people complain that when they meet someone they get guild sniffed.
I hate it when they try and force me to smell their guild.
What I hate is when I am in a combat teacher role, and the player comes to me and says well I don't want to do such and such training because I can't bash,kick,rescue,disarm, guard etc.
In my opinion, just do the training like everyone else and you are just bad at it.
I think in most militaristic clans you should first go through the prescribed training for the prescribed time and then if you still suck at it the clan will take your abilities into consideration. From a role play
perspective I think my characters would think "Of course you can't do it you refuse to even try?". But of course we all know OOCly you can't, so I that is the dilemma?
OP makes an excellent point.
When I went through bootcamp there were women who had never done pullups. I bet to this day they haven't done one unaided. But they got up on that bar tried. And if they hadn't, if they'd said, Look, I'm going to be a yeoman and it won't matter, someone would have sent their asses home. Play your pc not your guild. If you don't excel at everything, isn't that just like real life?
The above posters speak great wisdom. Retire to your place of solitude and reflect upon their words.
It doesn't matter if it's a skill you don't have. In character, if it's your job to train at that you should just be doing it anyway.
As one who has participated in lots of training for skills my character doesn't have (a past one, not current one, obviously) I think it's fun to roleplay the miserable failures and your PC's reaction to them.
While I agree with most of what has been said above, I think it would be fair for such a player to ask if they could focus more on practicing skills that they excel at. For many players it takes time to find the words to say these things without actually using the names of the skills themselves... or just find a better way to discuss skills in general.
I don't think they should be able to get completely out of "drills" or whatever, but if you are just focusing on training warrior skills I think it might be just as fair for someone to want to focus on Ranger or Assassin skills... or the skills of any guild that may be useful. I'm pretty sure many of the other "non-warrior" skills would be useful to mercenaries or merchant/noble houses. Scouting, espionage, etc... though these things may, perhaps, need to be done in a special setting or in a different group.
It's all about the language used. A pc saying, 'I can't kick, can you teach me something else?' is jarring to roleplay. There are other ways to do it however.
I think it's fine to roleplay your guild as a mindset or approach your pc has to combat. More along the lines of believing that kicking is a mindless and ineffecient means of winning a fight rather than, 'I can't do it'. The same way soldiers could disagree over what type of equipment is best or mma fighters argue over which stye/stretegy is most effective.
Overall though the OP has good advice. It doesn't hurt to suffer through a lesson or two on a skill you don't and may never have.
Saying "I can't do X" is a hard thing to justify. Most people without a severe physical disability can perform the general act of kicking, guarding, bashing, etc. It's just about how good you can do it. Therefore...
Saying "I'm not good at X" is better, and that's why you're training, after all.
As a side note, I also think you would also make a good case for receiving these skills (perhaps at a low level) if you do make a good effort ICly to learn them. I'm not sure what staff policy is on that at the moment, however.
If you're in one of the military clans, you're probably just going to have to bear guard drills and being bad at them.
But I can't think of any clan that engages in kick drills, disarm drills, or bash drills. Is this really that big a deal? If Amos won't be the third man for gith-guard-merchant, just tell the Sergeant and he'll get his ass beat for being a slacker.
I don't agree actually.
Sure, try for a little while, but it does not take long for anybody real life or IG to figure out they simply do not have the aptitude for something, they will never get better and there is no point at all to wasting the time and energy to keep beating that LONG dead horse.
Can you get skills added with enough RP, logs etc, yes, and if you want to go that route great. But some don't, and I see no problem at all with the PC saying, after trying a hundred times and having had to suffer through 20 drills and lessons, Screw this, I'm not gonna try any more. And to be honest you other players should let them be on the matter.
Because VERY quickly it all gets old. More quickly for people that have played longer.
It is a game, it is supposed to be fun to play, And though many of you who, who probly have not played more then a few years might still get enjoyment out of RPing the fails on skills you do not have...Post again in 5 more years when that number is literally in the THOUSANDS and see if you still think it is.
I think it -does- have to do with a matter of time. If you are a 0-day Assassin, and you join a military clan, you're going to suck at running a Guarding drill. Also, you're an assassin, or a combat master, or a shadow artist, whatever you are it is NOT a guard.
That doesn't, however, mean you can just sit there and do nothing during drills, and it sucks for the one in charge of the clan to have to sit there, basically being told "I am an assassin and I don't do guarding drills" because now the onus is on the leader to make it more fun for you.
Quote from: Riev on June 13, 2011, 12:40:35 AM
That doesn't, however, mean you can just sit there and do nothing during drills, and it sucks for the one in charge of the clan to have to sit there, basically being told "I am an assassin and I don't do guarding drills" because now the onus is on the leader to make it more fun for you.
Usually I just pretend to be AFK if I don't OOCly feel like fucking around with doing whatever it is my PC is supposed to be doing ICly. Most people seem to be okay with this.
Besides, how's your team supposed to guard and rescue you in combat while you're trying to throw and backstab shit if you never filled out the group for guard drills?
It's easy to take part. Just insist that you'd rather do it your way.
I agree with the dissenters. It gets old, when you don't have a coded skill, to be forced into drills every RL day for 10 minutes of your play time knowing full well that you will not improve, because your character isn't codedly capable of improving. You picked your skillset because you wanted certain coded skills, and other coded skills were not a priority. Code DOES matter in Armageddon.
It's frustrating when the instructor uses the "teach" command, and you don't get anything out of it.
Yes, the RP leading up to it is (hopefully) fun. But it stops being fun when it becomes a routine thing. Especially when that drill instructor emphasizes certain skills that you just plain don't have on your list. Or skills that you have absolutely no practical use for. Like, an assassin being forced to drill with shields every RL day. Players only -get- a certain amount of time to play Arm. If a chunk of that time is spent doing things that doesn't make sense for the character, that the player gets no coded "oh neato" from, then the player will soon burn out on that character and eventually store or suicide the PC, or do something stupid that gets them kicked out of the clan.
And then, all that effort trying to teach that character skills they don't have codedly, are wasted, and the instructor PC think they wasted all that time, and the instructor's player thinks he wasted all his time.. even though the player of the assassin being forced to learn shieldwork, has known that it was a waste of time from the get-go and was just hoping the instructor would notice that after a week and mix things up a bit.
Everyone gets frustrated when being forced to RP out coded skill drills that someone doesn't codedly possess, is routine.
Heh... the times I've had the teach command used on me ineffectively ... there are one or two. Mostly it's just amused me so far. Times I've burned out have had nothing to do with it...
If reverse-guild-sniffed well enough (especially if someone is actually entirely incapable of doing something, and ... demonstrates this) and I'm in a position to I do try to mix things up a bit training, so I guess that's something mildly on that side. It should really be done in a show-not-tell fashion the first time though. Ten minutes of a character's life showing you fail spectacularly at something is not too much to ask, is it? :D
Quote from: Kalai on June 13, 2011, 09:14:48 AM
If reverse-guild-sniffed well enough (especially if someone is actually entirely incapable of doing something, and ... demonstrates this) and I'm in a position to I do try to mix things up a bit training, so I guess that's something mildly on that side. It should really be done in a show-not-tell fashion the first time though. Ten minutes of a character's life showing you fail spectacularly at something is not too much to ask, is it? :D
In light of this, I have changed my opinion. If you are the leader of a military clan, and you're noticing more than a couple PCs don't have or suck spectacularly at certain drills, change the drills around, or find a way to make it interesting.
Riev:
Quote from: Kalai on Today at 08:14:48 AM
If reverse-guild-sniffed well enough (especially if someone is actually entirely incapable of doing something, and ... demonstrates this) and I'm in a position to I do try to mix things up a bit training, so I guess that's something mildly on that side. It should really be done in a show-not-tell fashion the first time though. Ten minutes of a character's life showing you fail spectacularly at something is not too much to ask, is it? :D
In light of this, I have changed my opinion. If you are the leader of a military clan, and you're noticing more than a couple PCs don't have or suck spectacularly at certain drills, change the drills around, or find a way to make it interesting.
Both things can be true simultaneously.
Or, if you have enough people on to make it feasible, throw out options.
Say: "Everyone who wants instruction with a blade, c'mon over here!"
Say: "Guard drills, north hall. Sparring, south hall. Slackers - LATRINE DUTY!"
I understand that it would be realistic to force everyone in your unit to practice a certain skill until they're passable at it, but for fun and playability you may have to settle on your leadership style being just a little less rigid.
think Well, at least Amos is doin' -something-.
Amos is still getting practice in his weapon skills and off/def during guard drills. I fail to see why it's such a big problem that he's not getting his rescue up.
Quote from: jstorrie on June 13, 2011, 06:57:59 PM
Amos is still getting practice in his weapon skills and off/def during guard drills. I fail to see why it's such a big problem that he's not getting his rescue up.
And if he doesn't practice, he might get even worse!
Quote from: lordcooper on June 13, 2011, 06:59:08 PM
Quote from: jstorrie on June 13, 2011, 06:57:59 PM
Amos is still getting practice in his weapon skills and off/def during guard drills. I fail to see why it's such a big problem that he's not getting his rescue up.
And if he doesn't practice, he might get even worse!
It's one thing to expect Amos to be part of the group and to bond over the sort of training exercises combatants bond over. It's another to give him a hard time for not improving.
If I ran training for a military unit, and I the player suspected that Amos didn't have guard, and my pc suspected that Amos might have other talents I would try to arrange alternate training for Amos. When that was not possible I would expect Amos to suck it up and participate because I told him to and if Amos would rather whine than do what I tell him to, fuck Amos.
Once Amos has graduated to trooper, private, guard, rockstar I expect Amos to be trusted to be productive during these drills in some way. Either by taking the new recruits who would benefit from some other type of training and providing it, supervising behavior if needed, doing some sort of maintenance, or participating as best he can.
If he doesn't have guard/rescue he probably needs any taste of sparring he can get. Guard drills included.
What alternative is there really? Should the Arm start giving backstab lessons?
If you sign up for a job that you know your PC doesn't have the proper skillset for, you should either tough it out or solve the problem yourself. You can always ask your Sarge for archery training or mounted training or whatever. The guard/rescue skills are extremely valuable for a group to have and help keep everyone safe on outings. When I play leader PCs, I still mandate them, even if it's obvious that we've got a burglar or assassin in the mix. His buddy's practice will save HIS life at some point.
As for giving Amos a hard time... is that what we're really arguing about here? Yes, it would be lame to treat him like shit for OOC reasons. Asking him to participate in gith-guard-merchant once in a while is not the same as harassing him for not having guard or rescue. He has to clean the latrine, too-does he get skill points out of that?
I dunno guys ... if you join the Byn but don't want to play warrior something seems wrong.
Same if you want to join the Salarri hunters but don't want to hunt.
Or the AoD but don't want to patrol.
By all means, though, let your crews get shitty and lazy because one guy doesn't want to do a drill he can't efficiently twink with. All the more easy for my guys to come take your boots.
Quote from: musashi on June 13, 2011, 07:09:09 PM
I dunno guys ... if you join the Byn but don't want to play warrior something seems wrong.
[not sure if serious.jpg]
I suspect that the Byn is rarely, if ever, predominantly composed of warriors.
And the Tuluki bardic circle is rarely if ever predominately composed of mundanes. What's your point?
Quote from: musashi on June 13, 2011, 07:57:40 PM
And the Tuluki bardic circle is rarely if ever predominately composed of mundanes. What's your point?
The bardic circle isn't the Byn. What's your point?
QuoteI would expect Amos to suck it up and participate because I told him to and if Amos would rather whine than do what I tell him to, fuck Amos.
Once Amos has graduated to trooper, private, guard, rockstar I expect Amos to be trusted to be productive during these drills in some way. Either by taking the new recruits who would benefit from some other type of training and providing it, supervising behavior if needed, doing some sort of maintenance, or participating as best he can.
+1
As for the Musashi-Synthesis spat, I'm going to have to side with Synth. I forgot where I read it, but there was an awesome quote like: "In a group of warriors, the one with scan wins." Rangers are extremely necessary to the Byn. Also, I usually suspect like a 1/4 of them are assassins just grinding up until they reach the point where they can safely go off and backstab everything that scuttles around the wastelands.
Unless by "play warrior" you meant "act as though you are actually training to be a bad-ass warrior/merc" instead of "chose warrior at gen."
Bottom line: if you hire into a clan as a mercenary/guard/etc, you need to expect that they're going to expect you to behave like a merc/guard/etc. After that, you have more trust and freedom to pursue your own goals. It's a lot like the army. At first, you're in boot camp learning the basics to survive. After you've done your exercising, sparring, shooting, etc you go to Advanced Individual Training where you learn to be an inventory clerk who pushes pencils and will probably never touch a firearm in a combat situation. Most leaders will give the tried and proven underlings this modicum of freedom. Really, a month and a half isn't a very long time to ask you to play along.
And to be frankly honest, my clan isn't a training ground for your assassin/rogue magicker/aspiring spam hunter. If you want to max out your stealth and play with poison, do it on your own time. If you want to stick around after the first year... Well, then I might give you special consideration.
A good reason to be able to learn any skill... even if, as a burglar or something, you could only learn to land a kick maybe 1 in 10 times.
Otherwise, the solution would be to leave a request to the staff saying "Hey, I'm just a thief but I've been drilling and practicing bash, kick, guard, and rescue for the last year or two.. here's the logs of me RP'ing along with it. Can I get at least a minimum ability with these skills?"
Not sure what you would get exactly, but I think it would be a reasonable request.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on June 13, 2011, 11:43:29 PM
Bottom line: if you hire into a clan as a mercenary/guard/etc, you need to expect that they're going to expect you to behave like a merc/guard/etc. After that, you have more trust and freedom to pursue your own goals. It's a lot like the army. At first, you're in boot camp learning the basics to survive. After you've done your exercising, sparring, shooting, etc you go to Advanced Individual Training where you learn to be an inventory clerk who pushes pencils and will probably never touch a firearm in a combat situation. Most leaders will give the tried and proven underlings this modicum of freedom. Really, a month and a half isn't a very long time to ask you to play along.
And to be frankly honest, my clan isn't a training ground for your assassin/rogue magicker/aspiring spam hunter. If you want to max out your stealth and play with poison, do it on your own time. If you want to stick around after the first year... Well, then I might give you special consideration.
This is what my point was. A lot of people in the Byn are not guild warrior. Duh. But the Byn is a military outfit that does military training. If you don't want to do military training, join a different clan. The Byn spars and does guard/rescue drills.
I do like the idea of, after your PC notices the person doesn't have the knack for the skill, changing things up a bit. If you're doing rescue drills, maybe the person who doesn't have the reflexes/is too small/can't seem to get the hang of rescueing or guarding can be perma-merchant. Then he gets to practise fending off the 'gith', while the others get more time each as 'guard'.
The requirement that a skill be trained through repetitiousness activity is the problem. If Guard could be trained up to a useful level through teaching and normal play, we wouldn't have dozens (hundreds?) of guard drills for people without the skill to suffer through
Quote from: Synthesis on June 13, 2011, 07:15:51 PMI suspect that the Byn is rarely, if ever, predominantly composed of warriors.
Oh, but it is. I really don't know where you got this idea from. From my extensive experience, the majority of Byn are warriors. I would say the Byn is rarely, if ever, not predominantly composed of warriors. :P
I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of the guard/rescue training, anyway.
It's one afternoon out of an entire IC week.
I think the bigger problem is when a Sergeant PC decides to teach all the noobs "parry" or "disarm," skills that only warriors start with, so chances are only 1 or 2 of the PCs in the room are even teachable, and chances are they're already too good at it for teach to be useful, anyway. Once you sit through a hundred of these pointless exercises, it really begins to grate on your nerves.
Not saying that I would bitch about it IC and go do something else, but I sure as hell won't be on my emoting A-game.
So to avoid confusion: I sort of agree with the OP on the OP's original points. However, adding an additional point: if you plan on being a sergeant or military leader in any clan, master and teach skills that you can teach everyone (dual wield, two-handed, piercing weapons, ride, cook, forage); otherwise, be flexible and allow for opportunities for people to train their other skills. If you don't, then a) they're going to be bored as fuck, and your entire unit and tenure will be boring as fuck, and nobody will care when you die and b) nobody will stay on as Troopers, and your unit will be perpetually noobish, thereby increasing the probability that you will die, and nobody will care.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 14, 2011, 12:16:06 PM
I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of the guard/rescue training, anyway.
It's one afternoon out of an entire IC week.
I think the bigger problem is when a Sergeant PC decides to teach all the noobs "parry" or "disarm," skills that only warriors start with, so chances are only 1 or 2 of the PCs in the room are even teachable, and chances are they're already too good at it for teach to be useful, anyway. Once you sit through a hundred of these pointless exercises, it really begins to grate on your nerves.
Not saying that I would bitch about it IC and go do something else, but I sure as hell won't be on my emoting A-game.
So to avoid confusion: I sort of agree with the OP on the OP's original points. However, adding an additional point: if you plan on being a sergeant or military leader in any clan, master and teach skills that you can teach everyone (dual wield, two-handed, piercing weapons, ride, cook, forage); otherwise, be flexible and allow for opportunities for people to train their other skills. If you don't, then a) they're going to be bored as fuck, and your entire unit and tenure will be boring as fuck, and nobody will care when you die and b) nobody will stay on as Troopers, and your unit will be perpetually noobish, thereby increasing the probability that you will die, and nobody will care.
Nobody cares about Bynners anyway. They're just discount meatshields. ;)
Oh man... this. This is my biggest pet peeve on Armageddon. I just want to get my anger out right now before I post anything stupid. I hate all of you who disagree!!!! ARGH!!
calm now.
Alright. I don't hate you guys. But I definately disagree with your disagreeing. Seriously. If you join the frick'n byn. Do what your told. Don't just be like, "I can't do it!" or "I don't wanna do it!" just frick'n do it. You're training so frickin' train. That's what people who are in training do. Don't just sit it out because it's not on your skill list. Forget you were playing a roleplaying game? You don't have coded damn skills IRL. You -can- get better IRL, not ICly but who cares?! You're roleplaying. If I told my drill sargeant I wasn't going to fire my M16 because I wasn't capable he would first, fuck my shit up - then tell me again to engage at the damn target. And if I failed but got close. I won't lie.. they do it. He would find some way to change the numbers that way I got enough shots into those targets. And if I didn't or failed utterly like 1 - 40 targets shot. He would make sure I got out of the army. That's right. They control everything you are during those weeks. If you are a failure or if you are a success.
In arm. The leaders control everything you are. If you are a failure or a success. If you believe the things you do during training are a waste of time, explain to the leader why what he has been doing for years doesn't work for you and how you're probably never going to get any better at doing it. He'll assess how much sense it makes and make his decision accordingly. Hopefully it's a good decision. If not. Those are the downs of being a leader. Decision making. Also the downs to being a follower. No say in anything.
- And. On another note. Leaders. Damn you for not teaching them anything and everything that could lead to a longer life. and just fighting, fighting, fighting. Even if you, leader don't have the skill. I blame you as well for not using them. Take your people out to teach them how to survive in the desert. This is Chettaman again saying use the damn skills you don't have. Everyone.
The problem with that arguement Chet, is that in real life, you -are- capable of firing off that M15 rifle. If you weren't, it'd be because you were missing your trigger finger, or lacked the eyesight required to see a target, or had balance issues bad enough to not be capable of holding the thing. Your boot camp officers would've figured that out, if the recruiters didn't notice it. You never would have made it to the war.
In Arm, you -do- have coded skills, and you also do -not- have other coded skills. You could have perfect eyesight, perfect balance, perfect coordination, all 10 fingers functioning normally, and not have the coded capability to learn how to use a weapon. There is no IC explanation for it; it's a code issue. The same with guard. There's a chance you might successfully guard someone at some point, but the odds are, if you don't have the coded skill, you will ultimately fail. And there is no IC explanation for it, you have to make one up. The lack of coded skill doesn't come with IC explanation. Why aren't you a rukkian? Because you didn't pick rukkian in chargen. Any IC reason for not being a rukkian is something you, the player, devised OOCly, to create a reason for your character. Why do you always fail rescue? Because your character lacks the coded skill to rescue. Why, when someone goes through all the effort to RP teaching you the skill, even going so far as to use the "teach" command, you never get any better and consistently suck at it? Because your character is not codedly capable of getting any better. No matter how strong, agile, low-encumbered, intelligent, wise, thoughtful, stragetically-minded, and quick, he will ultimately fail more often than not, in rescuing anyone, from anything, in a coded way that would result the rescued person no longer being in combat.
The game isn't realistic. It's playable, and it can be believable. But it isn't based on reality, and it isn't realistic. If it were, commoners would be literate, and someone would've figured out how to fix the plumbing in Allanak instead of having open shit-holes all over the city by now.
I'm not breaking character either as the rookie or as the leader. If I'm the rookie and my leader tells me to do something that I don't have the skill for, I'm going to act IC and do it or expect to suffer the consequences of choosing in character not to do so. If I'm a leader and someone says they don't want to do something (because they don't have the skill) for whatever reason, if it's not ICly reasonable, I'm going to kick their ass, kick them out, or there will be some other consequence. Deal with it in character and suffer the consequences if there should realistically be some.
But I don't have that skill and I don't want to rp learning about it since I don't. Bullshit. Don't fuckin' join a clan then unless it's to learn the particular thing you want to learn about.
"realistic" is the wrong word, I think. Or in my opinion. A better way to put it would be to state that our world. And zalanthas world are different.
You can always emote instead of actually using the skill or actually use a skill you don't have.
Unless of course it were 'unrealistic'. But every mundane skill is emoteable.
But... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.
Quote from: Chettaman on June 16, 2011, 08:43:28 PM
"realistic" is the wrong word, I think. Or in my opinion. A better way to put it would be to state that our world. And zalanthas world are different.
You can always emote instead of actually using the skill or actually use a skill you don't have.
Unless of course it were 'unrealistic'. But every mundane skill is emoteable.
But... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.
This, I think, should be acceptable.
The difference between the training ring and "real life" (er, Zalanthas real life) is the pressure. It's one thing to successfully guard your fellow recruit from another fellow recruit, it's a whole 'nother story for you to guard Lord Thingamajig when you're being ambushed. If you don't have the skill to do it "for real", maybe its because your character lacks the nerve in that situation.
The problem with roleplaying it out is, I can definitely see a lot of players getting mad about it because you want actually type 'guard man' and use the skill, but use emotes instead. How dare you make them miss another twink-skill-learning session!? ;P
Particularly confusing is when leader tries to explain how to use the command OOC and such. That can be awkward.
Your sergeant says, oocly:
"Type, 'guard amos' now, please."
emote stands next to ~amos, placing himself sort of in front of the guy.
You stand next to the tall, muscular man, placing himself in front of the guy.
Your sergeant says, oocly:
".... Type. Guard. Amos."
You say, oocly:
"I don't want to use a skill I don't have."
Your sergeant attacks you!
^ In the above, maybe you should file a player complaint because he's forcing you to do something with code you don't want to do, but even that 1-100 chance you have to guard must be nice. I'd say... jsut type "guard guy" after a really sick emote, fail, and get bitched out!
I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.
You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.
Mm. Try rescue for your examples here (I think that's a relevant command), not guard, and you'll see where the trouble lies. IIRC, failures don't echo.
Quote from: Saellyn on June 17, 2011, 12:33:07 AM
Your sergeant says, oocly:
"Type, 'guard amos' now, please."
emote stands next to ~amos, placing himself sort of in front of the guy.
You stand next to the tall, muscular man, placing himself in front of the guy.
Your sergeant says, oocly:
".... Type. Guard. Amos."
You say, oocly:
"I don't want to use a skill I don't have."
Your sergeant attacks you!
^ In the above, maybe you should file a player complaint because he's forcing you to do something with code you don't want to do, but even that 1-100 chance you have to guard must be nice. I'd say... jsut type "guard guy" after a really sick emote, fail, and get bitched out!
...and what's stopping you from using the coded skill? You can
attempt any skill you don't have. He's asking you to attempt it.
Frankly, it's absolutely wrong to be so obvious about the OOC fact you don't have a skill. That will be apparent when it turns out you're no good at it. But the sergeant shouldn't know you're no good at it, and neither should your PC, until you try the drill several times over a period and there's no improvement.
This is exactly the "reverse guild sniffing" the OP is talking about: you're trying to take an OOC fact of your guild, a fact that I may not be interested in at all in the context of the training drill, and beat me over the head with it. Just play along. You can roleplay out being terrible without being all "HEY GUYS I'M NOT A WARRIOR."
Quote from: Kalai on June 17, 2011, 12:50:02 AM
Mm. Try rescue for your examples here (I think that's a relevant command), not guard, and you'll see where the trouble lies. IIRC, failures don't echo.
Classes that have this skill fail it all the time when they're newbies, too, so I don't see how it's relevant at all. Any class can attempt to participate, and emote accordingly, and it'll be hard to tell the difference between an assassin and a newb warrior until you're runner year is nearly over.
But PCs who flat out refuse to participate because it's not on their skill list are being OOC douches and IC disobedient.
Quote from: Riev on June 17, 2011, 12:41:56 AM
I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.
You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.
If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.
The fact that you are not engaging a mechanic or not is an OOC matter. In this case, I wouldn't consider it metagaming since you are replacing a mechanic with an appropriate roleplayed substitution -- and so long as you don't RP being super-duper awesome at it, I don't see the issue. In the end, the person without the skill is not benefiting from anything at all, codedly speaking. "Metagaming" comes in when you see this:
Your recruit says, oocly,
"This isn't in my skill list. This is a dumb waste of time. Let's do cooking instead."
In the above statement, he's trying to redirect the IC situation even though its inappropriate because it benefits him codedly.
Honestly, the only people I see suffering from this are the people who think it's fun to do "guard/charge/reset" for the 100,000th time in the same RL week. I was in enough of these training sessions to know that 99% of them occur WITHOUT a lot of instructional RP, just code drills. And THAT, my friends, is metagaming.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 17, 2011, 01:34:25 AM
Any class can attempt to participate, and emote accordingly, and it'll be hard to tell the difference between an assassin and a newb warrior until you're runner year is nearly over.
But PCs who flat out refuse to participate because it's not on their skill list are being OOC douches and IC disobedient.
This.
QuoteBut... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.
That is totally untrue. Like on a scale of 1 to 10... -6,009.
Quote from: Erisine on June 17, 2011, 01:41:03 AM
Quote from: Riev on June 17, 2011, 12:41:56 AM
I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.
You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.
If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.
Kindly disagree. If you are using emotes, to replace something handled by code, I'm probably going to file a player complaint. Thats the same as EMOTING that you're guarding someone, but not guarding them. Or EMOTING that you're striking them, but not. Its dangerously close to power emoting.
Quote from: Riev on June 17, 2011, 02:27:15 AM
Quote from: Erisine on June 17, 2011, 01:41:03 AM
Quote from: Riev on June 17, 2011, 12:41:56 AM
I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.
You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.
If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.
Kindly disagree. If you are using emotes, to replace something handled by code, I'm probably going to file a player complaint. Thats the same as EMOTING that you're guarding someone, but not guarding them. Or EMOTING that you're striking them, but not. Its dangerously close to power emoting.
You do know why people don't like power-emoting in the first place, right???
I would love to see what an immortal would have to say to such a complaint. To be honest, unless I am SPOOFING game lines in a direct attempt to mislead you, the player, into doing something you would not normally do, then there isn't an issue.
If I chose to ROLEPLAY a guarding session, how does this negative effect you? It doesn't. Unless, of course, you, THE PLAYER, is upset because you don't get to see automated combat scrolling all over your screen and you get to miss that % of a chance to get another skill point. I personally would COMMEND another player if they chose to skip the usual routine code-barf and instead PARTICIPATED in the IC training through roleplay. Cuz, that takes effort. Typing 'guard man' does not.
If a player tried to force me to engage in a coded mechanic in a situation where there is a roleplay alternative (i.e, I am not trying to kill someone, or complete a craft where an actual, physical product is expected, or NPCs -- who are unable to "play along" -- are involved), then I would probably report them.
If you are in a leadership position, your job is not to make sure that I "learn the game" via repetitive waves of code drills. Your "job", in an OOC sense, is to fill a role where you are in a position to drive roleplay and help connect players and plots. If you are spending your time doing to safe thing of making people do blah code drills over and over, you're not a good leader and I hope you don't get another shot at such a role. Of course, that's just my opinion as someone who looks up to these "leaders".
Edited to add:
I have in the past declined to participate in coded drills, and instead did RP ones. I have also had Sergeants and leadership characters initiate that RP with me, instead of "training" me. I missed a valuable "code training" session, but I gained something that was fun and worthwhile. I will do it again -- it doesn't matter WHAT my class is. Sometimes I'm a warrior with guard, or disarm... and sometimes, I just get really, really freaking bored with this crap. If you have a problem with that, I welcome you to report me.
Perhaps if not in the same words, I tend to follow Erisine's viewpoint. If a magicker can emote performing a cantrip it should be perfectly valid to roleplay guarding practice, or just about -any- coded scenario, using emote alone. Indeed, who's to say that standing near ~man looking about intently isn't guarding him?
There's also the issue of those skills that you can use, but have some incredible drawback for doing so, specifically the horrendous wait for the 'pick' command and other such skills.
This being said, it's not appropriate to steer the course of the game by letting one know OOCly whether or not you have a given skill. If Amos doesn't feel he can guard someone (Due to a lack of said skill), this should be communicated via ingame methods as many posters have already referred to.
When in doubt, wish up or send in a report. Staff'll let you know if you're doing something completely wrong.
I'm all for RPing it out. As long as you don't make a big deal of how good your skills are, I don't see a problem with it. As long as you RP failing if someone codedly gets past your RPed guarding, it's all cool.
Quote from: Erisine on June 17, 2011, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: Riev on June 17, 2011, 02:27:15 AM
Quote from: Erisine on June 17, 2011, 01:41:03 AM
Quote from: Riev on June 17, 2011, 12:41:56 AM
I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.
You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.
If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.
Kindly disagree. If you are using emotes, to replace something handled by code, I'm probably going to file a player complaint. Thats the same as EMOTING that you're guarding someone, but not guarding them. Or EMOTING that you're striking them, but not. Its dangerously close to power emoting.
You do know why people don't like power-emoting in the first place, right???
I would love to see what an immortal would have to say to such a complaint. To be honest, unless I am SPOOFING game lines in a direct attempt to mislead you, the player, into doing something you would not normally do, then there isn't an issue.
If I chose to ROLEPLAY a guarding session, how does this negative effect you? It doesn't. Unless, of course, you, THE PLAYER, is upset because you don't get to see automated combat scrolling all over your screen and you get to miss that % of a chance to get another skill point. I personally would COMMEND another player if they chose to skip the usual routine code-barf and instead PARTICIPATED in the IC training through roleplay. Cuz, that takes effort. Typing 'guard man' does not.
If a player tried to force me to engage in a coded mechanic in a situation where there is a roleplay alternative (i.e, I am not trying to kill someone, or complete a craft where an actual, physical product is expected, or NPCs -- who are unable to "play along" -- are involved), then I would probably report them.
If you are in a leadership position, your job is not to make sure that I "learn the game" via repetitive waves of code drills. Your "job", in an OOC sense, is to fill a role where you are in a position to drive roleplay and help connect players and plots. If you are spending your time doing to safe thing of making people do blah code drills over and over, you're not a good leader and I hope you don't get another shot at such a role. Of course, that's just my opinion as someone who looks up to these "leaders".
Edited to add:
I have in the past declined to participate in coded drills, and instead did RP ones. I have also had Sergeants and leadership characters initiate that RP with me, instead of "training" me. I missed a valuable "code training" session, but I gained something that was fun and worthwhile. I will do it again -- it doesn't matter WHAT my class is. Sometimes I'm a warrior with guard, or disarm... and sometimes, I just get really, really freaking bored with this crap. If you have a problem with that, I welcome you to report me.
Why the hell are you raging against supposed skill twinks who actually treat the coded aspect of the game as something real and concrete in the game world (as it is?). You're attacking a strawman: nobody gains a skill when you fail to guard somebody else. No one but you is affected when you fail to rescue someone. So your refusal to use the code as part of your roleplay doesn't make any sense, except in the bullshit world you've contructed where code and roleplay are mutually exclusive rather than self supporting. If your clan mates aren't emoting, you can set an example while also participating in the drills.
As far as the world of Zalanthas is concerned, you are not trying to guard someone unless you >guard them. If you emote >:guards ~noble, it doesn't mean jack shit. In fact, it means you're faking it; you're pretending to guard them, but you and everyone else know your PC isn't going to attempt the guard when combat begins. Since you are not >guarding them, you are not guarding them, and expect to be yelled out for not practicing guarding during guard drills!
But seriously, why not just play along? You can throw in your emotes in addition to playing along codedly, to make it fun for you despite the lack of coded usefulness! Why not? Why assume people who want to practice their skills during skill practice time are twinky metagamers who don't care a smidgeon about roleplaying? And with this attitude that you either have useful coded skill gain, or have entertaining roleplaying experience, and that they are mutually exclusive, is extremely destructive. Please stay away from military clans if that's your attitude.
There Chettaman goes... tellin war stories.
This is an RPI MUD, not an RPI MUSH--roleplay is backed by code. That is why the code is there. Ignoring the code to just emote, tell, say, etc. is nearly as bad as not fleshing out coded things with emotes, tells, says, hemotes, etc. Using a coded skill in a way that doesn't make much realistic sense is tantamount to using a roleplayed skill and expecting others to simply bow to your emoting prowess.
When we get complaints like this: "omg, I just got PKed by this dude that didn't RP," we will look into it. However, most of the time, the RP occurred before or after the kill, with the intent being "the PK is important in the scope of this roleplayed situation." We also occasionally get complaints like this: "omg, this dude just ran away from my PC that was emoting blocking the exit." We will look into that as well. However, at least some of the time, the player "guarding" the exit isn't guarding it, nor are they subduing the character. While it may be somewhat "bad form" to ignore the roleplay there, it is not quite as bad as you assuming your PC guarded the door without a skillcheck. The code works WITH roleplay the vast majority of the time, not in spite of roleplay, and roleplay should work WITH code.
If you don't have the coded ability to do something that you are asked to do but emote attempting it anyway, that's fine; if you fail it in a real skill check of that skill because you don't have it (or suck at it but emoted that you did have it or were good at it), don't come to us complaining that the code didn't back up your roleplay or when you catch flak in-game for sucking and failing. You should definitely use the code to determine how well (or how unsuccessfully) you're achieving any skill.
Like Nyr said. If all you're doing is emotion, and not actually using the skill, it's kind of wrong.
If you are a merchant, but you -emote- totally blocking the door, while wearing full warrior gear, and pretending to have warrior skills via emotes, nobody is going to know that your character actually isn't at all effective at trying to contain someone unless they try. If you don't use the skill, people might feel bad just fleeing, but without the skill, and the subsequent dice check, there's no standard to measure against, and it renders the whole thing kinda silly. Use the skills if you emote them, they're there for a reason.
I was about to write something similar, then I saw Nyr had posted.
Go ahead and emote your guarding session. When it appears as if you're not even TRYING when coded combat is initiated, I'm sure you'll have a shitstorm coming your way.
Also, don't expect people to appease you emoting holding them down, guarding an exit, training, etc. Actually using the CODE is important, because it gives both sides a chance to do something. Fine, emote out technique for fighting, blah blah... that's awesome and super important. Combat code is important when it comes to practice fights, because it gives both sides the chance to hit and miss. Could go on with tons more examples.
Not using a coded ability is, essentially, willingly taking a fail. This would be fine, but the problem is you are often times also denying other characters the chance to succeed or fail via coded abilities; you're just "giving" it to them (sneak vs guard), or not letting them try at all (combat).
The code is a good way to flip the coin or roll the dice and make sure everyone gets a fair chance to do whatever they are trying to do. Otherwise it would be like calling heads or tails and arguing over the outcome without even flipping the coin. Plus the code is just awesome.
On a slightly different tangent, how similiar is the emoting of a skill to the emoting of another command?
>em falls asleep ; change ldesc is here, asleep.
I remember reading elsewhere that this particular example was okay, so long as an occasional hemote was thrown out to expose your pretending.
At the risk of treading on 'power emoting', I disagree with Nyr regarding the example of blocking a door. If one decides to emote blocking the door, the other gets the choice of emoting whether or not he's actually blocked, according to his own feelings about his character. Kind of like asking "Hey, the coin is on its edge. Do you want it to be heads or tails?"
Playing devil's advocate, this is exactly why nosave was added/updated. Emote, in my opinion, leaves the story but takes out the contest.
Quote from: Xagon on June 17, 2011, 01:53:24 PM
>em falls asleep ; change ldesc is here, asleep.
I remember reading elsewhere that this particular example was okay, so long as an occasional hemote was thrown out to expose your pretending.
(I think I was one of the ones asking...and the answer was more a cautious "what you said is probably a justifiable case" than a "yes, that's awesome." If you're ever, ever going to fake a coded message, you'd better think it all the way through and err on the side of being fair to your opponent.)
Quote from: Xagon on June 17, 2011, 01:53:24 PM
At the risk of treading on 'power emoting', I disagree with Nyr regarding the example of blocking a door. If one decides to emote blocking the door, the other gets the choice of emoting whether or not he's actually blocked, according to his own feelings about his character. Kind of like asking "Hey, the coin is on its edge. Do you want it to be heads or tails?"
The example provided was a complaint scenario.
I am not saying this: No player can just roleplay using emotes/communication commands and ignore the code.
I am saying this: If you as a player only roleplay using emotes/communication commands and you submit a complaint because you were inconvenienced by the code that is an integral part of the game (eat/drink/sleep/kill/cast/subdue/kick/backstab/sneak/hide/guard/throw/shoot/incriminate/etc.) that shouldn't trump your roleplay, it will likely be dismissed.
No one has really suggested that they would prefer to have things as mentioned above, but that
is the general staff position. The first rule of the game is that role-playing is central to the environment and that it is a strict requirement. Code works in tandem with roleplay to provide some structure to it, and if you discard an aspect of the code because you'd like to explore the roleplaying minefield with no coded boundaries, that is your choice to make. However, no one is required to follow you in that regard, and should you try to emote without the code to back your emote up, be prepared for a potential lesson in rules 2, 3, and 4.
Quote from: Chettaman on June 16, 2011, 08:43:28 PM
"realistic" is the wrong word, I think. Or in my opinion. A better way to put it would be to state that our world. And zalanthas world are different.
You can always emote instead of actually using the skill or actually use a skill you don't have.
Unless of course it were 'unrealistic'. But every mundane skill is emoteable.
But... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.
Using an emote will not save you from coded consequences.
If you get lost in a storm, and type "emote gets out of the storm just fine, and wanders into the outpost" - you'll still be lost in the storm.
If you are successfully accosted by a backstabbing fiend, typing "emote ducks, and reverses the backstab, and stabs ~fiend in the face!" it won't save you from the perraine on the end of that blade. You -were- successfully backstabbed, whether you emote it or not.
If you come across a mekillot on your ride, emoting "veers to the left and completely avoids ~mekillot" won't make the mekillot say "oh - I missed. sorry, I'll just emote missing eating your erdlu in two bites then." Mekillot -will- eat your erdlu, and you -will- be next.
In order to change the coded consequences of the above situations, you -must- make use of the code, or hope that the code favors you with the random generator that day. You can't RP your way out of a gith attack. You just can't. It doesn't work that way in Arm.
Quote from: Riev on June 17, 2011, 12:41:56 AM
I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.
You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.
Agreed. On the same vein, the sergaent expecting you to devote extra IC time to drills because it's clear you totally suck at coded guarding, is unfair OOCly, when you don't have that skill and will always suck. It's not ICly unfair, it's OOCly unfair. And -that- would warrant a player complaint as well, because the player of the sergeant is rejecting the fact that other players only have "x" time to play Arm, and don't want to spend most of it roleplaying out scenes of a specific skill they are codedly incapable of succeeding with.
I think it's just as OOCly unfair to put the player of the leader character in that position.
Quote from: Xagon on June 17, 2011, 03:56:07 AM
Perhaps if not in the same words, I tend to follow Erisine's viewpoint. If a magicker can emote performing a cantrip it should be perfectly valid to roleplay guarding practice, or just about -any- coded scenario, using emote alone. Indeed, who's to say that standing near ~man looking about intently isn't guarding him?
I don't understand why you wouldn't just (or also!) >guard man, since either way you're not going to successfully guard them. What's the problem here?
There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character. People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm. If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.
Quote from: wizturbo on June 17, 2011, 06:22:48 PM
There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character. People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm. If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.
On the other hand, clans are not always free to hire as many people as they want, and if you are filling a slot but failing to do the job you were hired for, expect to get booted for someone who will.
The eloquently emoting man says in sirihish, waving his clasped hands in a pleading gesture:
"I go to training Sarge. I really do. But I never seem to improve."
The gruff and frustrated sergeant says in sirihish:
"I hired you to work as a guard. You said you could do it, so I brought you on. You got one more shot to show me you can, otherwise, start packing your shit."
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 17, 2011, 07:49:28 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on June 17, 2011, 06:22:48 PM
There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character. People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm. If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.
On the other hand, clans are not always free to hire as many people as they want, and if you are filling a slot but failing to do the job you were hired for, expect to get booted for someone who will.
The eloquently emoting man says in sirihish, waving his clasped hands in a pleading gesture:
"I go to training Sarge. I really do. But I never seem to improve."
The gruff and frustrated sergeant says in sirihish:
"I hired you to work as a guard. You said you could do it, so I brought you on. You got one more shot to show me you can, otherwise, start packing your shit."
That would be a Great IC and OOC solution. Unfortunately, not all clan leaders do this. I have seen someone be told to work extra time on rescue drills, because the clan leader player wanted to handle things "realistically" and in his mind, that meant that the guy *could* improve, if only he would spend a little of his free time on it. When that happens, players get burned out. Leaders burn out on telling people to work extra time to encourage RPing of non-coded skills, players without the skills get burnt out always having to RP specific things that -are- coded for other people, but not for them..and having to spend all their online time doing so.
It's no good for anyone, after awhile. Maybe the first RL week - "okay Amos, I see you're having trouble with rescue drills. Here's an exercise I want you to use with the dummy, every time you're due for practice and no one else in the crew is around. Do that at least half of the hour, and go ahead and continue your usual stuff the other half of the hour. We'll check back in a half-month and see how you're doing then."
And a half month later, there's zero change, and Amos is RPing that he doesn't understand why he's not improving, or he's RPing that his weak arm from a war injury 20 years ago still isn't getting any stronger, or his wasting sickness looks like it's gonna be a long-term deal..
and the Sergeant just lets the guy go with a recommendation to anyone looking for a tracker since this guy clearly isn't cut out for guard work but has a good nose and sharp eyes.
Quote from: Bacon on June 17, 2011, 04:28:34 PM
I think it's just as OOCly unfair to put the player of the leader character in that position.
There is a reason that we're not supposed to guild sniff in the first place -- that being, of course, that I don't think the original creators of Armageddon wanted people to play cliche class-based characters, and instead view their skills as what they are -- just skills. You can roll up a warrior and be a pansy fan-waving prostitute who goes, "My gracious!" every time a cockroach runs across the floor, and you can roll a merchant class and join up with the Byn to be that poor clumbsy kid who (for whatever reason) thinks he's really awesome. Clans do not have class requirements because ICly, classes do not exist. They're there to provide skill balance so you don't get merchant-warrior-mind-flayer-super-borg PCs.
Players in leadership roles who enter the role fully expecting that all their d00dz are going to be of a certain class and should play as such have another thing coming. In a way, I could call that metagaming.
Quote from: maxid on June 17, 2011, 09:02:06 AM
Like Nyr said. If all you're doing is emotion, and not actually using the skill, it's kind of wrong.
I don't think that's actually what he said.
Quote from: Nyr on June 17, 2011, 08:54:47 AM
This is an RPI MUD, not an RPI MUSH--roleplay is backed by code. That is why the code is there. Ignoring the code to just emote, tell, say, etc. is nearly as bad as not fleshing out coded things with emotes, tells, says, hemotes, etc. Using a coded skill in a way that doesn't make much realistic sense is tantamount to using a roleplayed skill and expecting others to simply bow to your emoting prowess.
Ignoring coded actions is bad RP. If someone walks up to you and does 'cast [insert scary spell here]', just because they didn't EMOTE it, doesn't mean they didn't DO it. You can't ignore that. So, I absolutely agree with you.
Quote from: Nyr on June 17, 2011, 08:54:47 AM
When we get complaints like this: "omg, I just got PKed by this dude that didn't RP," we will look into it. However, most of the time, the RP occurred before or after the kill, with the intent being "the PK is important in the scope of this roleplayed situation." We also occasionally get complaints like this: "omg, this dude just ran away from my PC that was emoting blocking the exit." We will look into that as well. However, at least some of the time, the player "guarding" the exit isn't guarding it, nor are they subduing the character. While it may be somewhat "bad form" to ignore the roleplay there, it is not quite as bad as you assuming your PC guarded the door without a skillcheck. The code works WITH roleplay the vast majority of the time, not in spite of roleplay, and roleplay should work WITH code.
If you don't have the coded ability to do something that you are asked to do but emote attempting it anyway, that's fine; if you fail it in a real skill check of that skill because you don't have it (or suck at it but emoted that you did have it or were good at it), don't come to us complaining that the code didn't back up your roleplay or when you catch flak in-game for sucking and failing. You should definitely use the code to determine how well (or how unsuccessfully) you're achieving any skill.
To Maxid, I can't see here where Nyx said RPing in a training session is wrong. In fact, I bolded a line that seems to agree with my initial point.
There's a big difference between whining because you wandered around emoting that you're this incredible sorcerer with mind-boggling super-powers, but then you can't cast a single spell (worse still, you're playing a non-magicker class altogether). But that again falls into the realm of bad RP -- you're RPing something that your character clearly is not, so again, I agree with this.
My rant is specifically targeted towards those moments in the game when we do not NEED code -- such as training sessions. OOCly, these get tiresome very quickly once you're in a clan. It's been a long-time problem that keeps a lot of people OUT of clans. Missing chances to practice a skill against one or two players is not going to significantly hurt you, and it's not really necessary. Choosing to emote training during clan routines does not necessarily reveal your guild, either: the player in question can simply just be bored. Having other players expect me NOT to RP but rather just participate in monotonous (usually silent) code drills is unfair and will lead me to not want to play in that clan again.
I just think people should remember that if someone DID approach you with an RP'd aggressive encounter, they should see it for what it likely is: another player wants to play with you and have some fun. It might end in a coded fight -- you might even initiate it. But if you do, try to put forth the same amount of effort that the other person did, so that you can both walk away from it and enjoy some value.
Last but not least,
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 17, 2011, 05:20:43 AM
Why the hell are you raging...
The rant was triggered because another player insinuated that they needed to report me for roleplaying, as though I was doing something very wrong; my response may have been heated and aggressive, and for that I apologize. However, it is something I feel strongly about.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 17, 2011, 05:20:43 AM
You're attacking a strawman
You're using that wrong. ;)
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 17, 2011, 05:20:43 AM
So your refusal to use the code as part of your roleplay doesn't make any sense, except in the bullshit world you've contructed where code and roleplay are mutually exclusive rather than self supporting. If your clan mates aren't emoting, you can set an example while also participating in the drills.
Wrong, because you have misinterpreted my issue. It doesn't matter if there is a skill gain or not. I had thought that was inferred, especially with the added emphasis that coded drills are BORING. Your argument here appears to be that I shouldn't say no to code if there's no gain in it for anyone else, either -- but that works the other way, as I can say that because NOBODY gains, then it IS a waste of time and no value at all can be gained through being forced to participate in coded drills, when they can be roleplayed. I'm not saying people should be FORCED to RP these drills as some sort of "rule", but I'm saying that players involved in these clans should NOT be expected to participate in code drills if they still participate through roleplay. You lose nothing. They lose nothing. At worst, you are forced to interact more on an intellectual level that is only slightly higher than "really, really high maaan."
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 17, 2011, 05:20:43 AM
As far as the world of Zalanthas is concerned, you are not trying to guard someone unless you >guard them. If you emote >:guards ~noble, it doesn't mean jack shit. In fact, it means you're faking it; you're pretending to guard them, but you and everyone else know your PC isn't going to attempt the guard when combat begins. Since you are not >guarding them, you are not guarding them, and expect to be yelled out for not practicing guarding during guard drills!
Wrong. Unless I am POWER-EMOTING or doing things completely outside of the world context, then whatever I emote is something that my character does. Here, power-emoting means something like, "emote backhands ~man, snapping his neck in the process!", or it could mean emoting things like, "emote sprouts wings and flies away into the sunset." If I emote standing near you and looking around defensively, then my character is standing near you and looking around defensively. This can be interpreted as guarding. Thus, my character is guarding you. Ignoring this fact is bad RP. In this case, I'm not spoofing, so it's not like I'm trying to trick you.
Failing to guard during an emoted guard is the same thing as failing to guard during the coded guard. Someone got through the defenses -- period. Of course, if you really want to argue this point, then why not moan about non-warriors/guards getting into clans and practicing guard? If they don't learn the skill, they will never use it effectively -- so when it comes time to be guarded, you're still up shit creek without a paddle. In the end, does it really matter? No.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 17, 2011, 05:20:43 AM
But seriously, why not just play along? You can throw in your emotes in addition to playing along codedly, to make it fun for you despite the lack of coded usefulness! Why not? Why assume people who want to practice their skills during skill practice time are twinky metagamers who don't care a smidgeon about roleplaying?
See, my argument is, why don't YOU just play along? Especially since you pointed out that you're not going to gain anything anyway. What's the issue?
A few problems crop up during automated guard/combat attempts:
1.) Sometimes, it's just boring.
2.) Automated combat is not paced, so you really can't RP out a scene outside of throwing out a few emotes. You don't get to really RP until you stop and then you're all just echoing how fatigued you all are. Great. Now when is my Sergeant actually going to RP and tell me why my technique is so terrible? Maybe I'm holding the blade wrong. Maybe my stance is bad. I don't know -- but RPing a scene for this is a lot more valuable than not.
3.) In my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (albeit an experience that is dated 2004-2006), people will often ignore pitched emotes during drills. Not all of them do. But many will. Which brings me back to point #1, since if I wanted to RP with myself, I'd fight dummies and slap scrabs around.
As for twinky metagamers -- it's because if they can't go 20 RL minutes without needing to bitch at you for not codedly "doing it right", then they probably ARE twinky metagamers. If presented with evidence, one can make fair assumptions.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 17, 2011, 09:54:56 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 17, 2011, 07:49:28 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on June 17, 2011, 06:22:48 PM
There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character. People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm. If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.
On the other hand, clans are not always free to hire as many people as they want, and if you are filling a slot but failing to do the job you were hired for, expect to get booted for someone who will.
The eloquently emoting man says in sirihish, waving his clasped hands in a pleading gesture:
"I go to training Sarge. I really do. But I never seem to improve."
The gruff and frustrated sergeant says in sirihish:
"I hired you to work as a guard. You said you could do it, so I brought you on. You got one more shot to show me you can, otherwise, start packing your shit."
That would be a Great IC and OOC solution. Unfortunately, not all clan leaders do this. I have seen someone be told to work extra time on rescue drills, because the clan leader player wanted to handle things "realistically" and in his mind, that meant that the guy *could* improve, if only he would spend a little of his free time on it. When that happens, players get burned out. Leaders burn out on telling people to work extra time to encourage RPing of non-coded skills, players without the skills get burnt out always having to RP specific things that -are- coded for other people, but not for them..and having to spend all their online time doing so.
It's no good for anyone, after awhile. Maybe the first RL week - "okay Amos, I see you're having trouble with rescue drills. Here's an exercise I want you to use with the dummy, every time you're due for practice and no one else in the crew is around. Do that at least half of the hour, and go ahead and continue your usual stuff the other half of the hour. We'll check back in a half-month and see how you're doing then."
And a half month later, there's zero change, and Amos is RPing that he doesn't understand why he's not improving, or he's RPing that his weak arm from a war injury 20 years ago still isn't getting any stronger, or his wasting sickness looks like it's gonna be a long-term deal..
and the Sergeant just lets the guy go with a recommendation to anyone looking for a tracker since this guy clearly isn't cut out for guard work but has a good nose and sharp eyes.
I think dealing with a lack of apparent skill ICly is the best possible solution. If they can't do the job, then they can't do the job. This does not conflict with spicing things up between code drills and RP'd drills.
As for your point about getting burned out, I absolutely understand this. I think, however, this is more of an issue in clans that are OVERLY routine; I see no reason for folks to look for ways to shake up the usual clan rotations. It's assumed that your PC does these during their virtual time when you're offline, so they are not actually "missing" a lot of sessions by having your usual "armor repair" session interrupted by some mini-RPT.
Whoa ... tl;dr.
o.0 It's 6 am, I hope I'm able to string words together in a meaningful manner..
Most of you guys are really good at not letting opinions and conventions from our world leak into the game world. You treat women as equals and try to avoid language and behavior that would imply there was any bias. You don't bat an eye at homosexual behavior. You do well...but this whole argument seems to be based on our society's sense of self entitlement. It has been decided OOC'ly that joining the Byn is a great way to advance your character's combat skills and get them trained up to be badass fighters. So now it's almost as though every player feels they have the right for their character, no matter what they are, to join the Byn and get specialized training tailored specifically to their guild.
Does this not sound odd to any of you?
The Byn is a combat organization. People hire them to kill things. You hire them to escort you somewhere, why? To kill the bad things that want to eat you. You hire them to clear roads..by killing things. You hire them for special missions..that involve killing things. Soo...the Byn trains it's recruits to kill things. With swords. With clubs. With spears. With bows.
So, we all know that the Byn trains warriors.(profession, not guild) If it's not your skillset and you don't want to go through the training that your IC leaders prescribe, perhaps you should consider not joining the Byn. Yes, yes...I know..it's not -fair-. You totally deserve to have your Vivaduan join the Byn and receive lessons on making water. It's totally your -right- as a human being to have your assassin join the Byn and get special lessons on sneaking up behind someone and sticking a knife in their kidney. The other recruits can just wait while you get your special training. You only get 10 minutes a day to play, so the other players can just suck it.
The Byn teaches -all- combat skills. If you joined cause you, as a player, want your character to learn slashing weapons, then you just have to endure the guard drills, archery practice, bashing, etc. You still also get the slashing weapons training. Did the recruiter tell you when you were joining that you were guaranteed to come out of your combat training as the shadow that slinks through the city unseen leaving a trail of lung-punctured victims in your wake? It's a mercenary troupe. Not a thieve's guild or assassin school.
Sure, a good leader will utilize the skills of their subordinates. However, a training regime can't be changed because a few recruit's have different skill sets. There are vNPC recruits and troupers as well. The training caters to the majority, not the minority. I have to agree with Chettaman on this one. If I had told my drill sergeant in the Army that I was simply no good at running, or cleaning my gun, or making my bed, or marching in cadence, or throwing grenades he would have stared at me like I was an idiot, told me of course I was no good at it, I was too stupid to realize who was in charge, so I was obviously too stupid to mop a floor but to do it anyway, right effing now before he ripped my intestines out through my bunghole.
Those of you arguing that you play to have fun, so should have tailored lessons:
I understand what you mean, I really, really, really do. However, if you have limited time, or just don't want to have to suffer through it, don't join. You're ignoring the IC purpose of the Byn and trying to make it fit into your idea of what you deserve as a human in the real world, rather than looking that what your character would be expected to do in Zalanthas. Form a group of friends. Buy sparring weapons. Only practice what you want.
Well spoken sir.
Quote from: musashi on June 18, 2011, 07:34:34 AM
Well spoken sir.
Thank you...I tend to lose my train of thought and derail a lot. :p
I totally agree with it. Various clans in the game follow various themes, and while no one is expected to be a certain guild in order to be in a certain clan (templars excepting) ... they are expected to act in accordance with the theme of the clan they're in if they want to avoid catching flak from their fellow clan mates.
If you're in the bardic circle but secretly a gicker ... you still have to act like a bard.
If you're in the Byn but secretly a gicker ... you still have to act like a soldier.
... Even if said guild has never been anything other than a safe haven for people pretending to be one thing while actually being something else.
... Even if you're an old player and you've done the "pretend to be this kind of person while really being that kind of person" character concept countless times.
I'm pretty sure the Byn doesn't train assassins. At least not in assassiny skills. If I were getting backstabbed/sapped during training by my partner, and I could kick their ass seriously hard... well, I would. With extreme prejudice.
Emoting != roleplay
But it's the best tool for making a dynamic and interesting role, while playing.
If you're in a clan that has a decently veteran leader he's going to be able to tell after a week or two if your guy is one of three guilds, anyway. Most players give themselves away pretty quickly. So long as you're roleplaying a vaguely interesting character it's not going to matter. If that leader cares what guild you are... then they suck.
With that being said, it's kind of frustrating as a leader to get 4 people who claim to "make clothing" and not have one Merchant amongst them. If you play a lot, it kind of pays to have a useful guild--since you're likely to have more downtime than the average player. (Most vets don't play as much as the new players, I think.) If you've been around the block you can get away with bringing nothing to the clan from a coded perspective if you're bringing good atmosphere and interesting interaction--someone has to teach the noobs what the virtual environment is and how to stay within docs through good example.
I know when I'm playing a leader I generally hire two types:
1.) The useful, code-heavy noob that makes a lot of stuff or brings in a lot of skins
or
2.) The player that may log on a few hours a week but plays a very interesting, three-dimensional PC.
When I see a group of ten bynners, from the beginning this is sort of how I'd imagined their makeup:
2 warriors, 3 assasins, 1 ranger, 2 burglars, 1 pickpocket, and 1 merchant or 1 rogue gicker, often coming with the mercenary subguild or some sort of subguild involving knowing armor repair
I think i got that idea from just the way the byn operates, very loosely accepting of just about anyone and not particularly expected to be good, but having serious potential and drinking that soup like air.
i miss the byn. i want to go back someday
Quote from: Cindy42 on June 18, 2011, 05:09:42 PM
When I see a group of ten bynners, from the beginning this is sort of how I'd imagined their makeup:
2 warriors, 3 assasins, 1 ranger, 2 burglars, 1 pickpocket, and 1 merchant or 1 rogue gicker, often coming with the mercenary subguild or some sort of subguild involving knowing armor repair
I think i got that idea from just the way the byn operates, very loosely accepting of just about anyone and not particularly expected to be good, but having serious potential and drinking that soup like air.
i miss the byn. i want to go back someday
Nope. 2 warriors, 1 ranger (if the sergeant is lucky) and 5 assassins and 2 burglars.
QuotePlayers in leadership roles who enter the role fully expecting that all their d00dz are going to be of a certain class and should play as such have another thing coming. In a way, I could call that metagaming.
I never said or condoned anything of the sort. I said, do your job ic or suffer the ic consequences. I think that's fair for both parties involved.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 18, 2011, 05:25:04 PM
2 warriors, 1 ranger (if the sergeant is lucky) and 5 assassins and 2 burglars.
Yeah, but at least one of the assassins is assassin/guard and the other is assassin/mercenary. It's the burglars who are an even linguist/tailor split.
Quote from: Bacon on June 19, 2011, 02:30:20 AM
QuotePlayers in leadership roles who enter the role fully expecting that all their d00dz are going to be of a certain class and should play as such have another thing coming. In a way, I could call that metagaming.
I never said or condoned anything of the sort. I said, do your job ic or suffer the ic consequences. I think that's fair for both parties involved.
+1
I was gonna be all trolling in this post but that's too much effort. Infer whichever insult would be greatest from this post.
I was gonna be all trolling in this post but that's too much effort. Infer whichever insult would be greatest from this post.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 19, 2011, 04:02:48 AM
I was gonna be all trolling in this post but that's too much effort. Infer whichever insult would be greatest from this post.
....You @$$head!!!! I can't believe you said that! I am so offended!
Backstab/sap aren't things to train with on your friends and comrades in any capacity. :P However, if you're under the illusion that you're going to be fighting warriors all the time... well, let's say practicing and practicing -against- some of the other skills of non-warriors can be very useful. I've practiced noncoded skills often enough in military organizations, including as a warrior, and they've helped me learn some interesting strategies while the person I was working with learned skills.
This thread is done. My position is unassailable.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 19, 2011, 09:46:06 AM
This thread is done. My position is unassailable.
I laughed.
Just get your barrier up to master and skip the session. There are lots of ways around it.
Be consistent. Keep your lessons going and to hell with anyone that can't perform well in them.
Don't demand anyone do one thing for the whole day. No one does that except slaves, and those roles are a no-go.
Then, if someone puts up a fuss, kill them.
Or simply boot them out. Reason and patience are for wusses.
Next incarnation, I'm making a non-combat class with a warrioresk subclass and joining the most heavily militaristic clan I can. Then, I'm going to roleplay utter combat incompetence.
It will be the greatest thing ever.
Quote from: Karieith on September 23, 2011, 10:24:32 PM
Next incarnation, I'm making a non-combat class with a warrioresk subclass and joining the most heavily militaristic clan I can. Then, I'm going to roleplay utter combat incompetence.
It will be the greatest thing ever.
bet you won't.
>: D
I rolled up a whiran once with the intent of playing him as a combat character for a while before his "awakening." Stated him like I would have a warrior, and he turned out to be pretty damn convincing. He could whoop up on some rangers fairly easily after about ten days played in a combat based clan with a semi-regular training schedule.
Quote from: jstorrie on June 19, 2011, 02:52:08 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 18, 2011, 05:25:04 PM
2 warriors, 1 ranger (if the sergeant is lucky) and 5 assassins and 2 burglars.
Yeah, but at least one of the assassins is assassin/guard and the other is assassin/mercenary. It's the burglars who are an even linguist/tailor split.
I actually like that about the Byn. If they're all dwarven warriors with exceptional+ stats, they stop being a rag tag group of crappy mercenaries who do the jobs no one else wants to do. The fact that they're usually a bunch of guilds who are awful at combat is what makes them so compelling as an organization. They're not the best, or the brightest, or the most able, but damnit, they're the most desperate and there's a lot of them.
Quote from: docsThe T'zai Byn is the Allanaki Mercenaries' Guild. It is easily the oldest and largest mercenary company in Allanak, with a reputation for toughness and brutal effectiveness on the field.
They kind of are the best, as far as merc companies go.
I think I remember reading somewhere that they were comparable to one of America's military branches, but I can't for the life of me recall which or in what context.
Quote from: Is Friday on November 10, 2011, 11:28:23 PM
Quote from: docsThe T'zai Byn is the Allanaki Mercenaries' Guild. It is easily the oldest and largest mercenary company in Allanak, with a reputation for toughness and brutal effectiveness on the field.
They kind of are the best, as far as merc companies go.
I was always under the impression that they were universally considered a cut below most standing fighting forces, even if they were the best mercenaries, with the order of "eliteness" being something like... Lyksae/Tor > Legion/Arm > Borsail/Winrothol > GMH and Byn. As far as mercenary companies go, I think they're certainly the most established for "toughness and brutal effectiveness" but I still think that could be interpreted as sending wave after wave of incompetent runners after the target ;D
I guess you're right though. They're not crappy mercenaries, they're the best mercenaries. It just always seemed like from all of the player-accessible, established groups, the Byn is the crappiest, most incompetent, rag-tag organization, but that may be because of actual IG occurrences and not the docs themselves.
Lyksae, Tor, Borsail, Winrothol, the AoD, the Tuluki Legions, the Fist...none of these are mercenary groups. You can't hire them to come fight for your cause. The T'zai Byn is the largest, most well-known, most effective mercenary force in the Known.
Quote from: Celest on November 11, 2011, 01:10:07 AM
I was always under the impression that they were universally considered a cut below most standing fighting forces, even if they were the best mercenaries, with the order of "eliteness" being something like... Lyksae/Tor > Legion/Arm > Borsail/Winrothol > GMH and Byn.
Borsail's forces (and, presumably, Winrothol's) are likely better and more expensively trained than either city's regular army, but they're not really good at the same things.
The Byn is (should be?) like the French Foreign Legion, as far as social acceptability and expertise, methinks.
There is the IC view of the Byn, which is going to be different depending on who you talk to. Nobles and templars will talk them down, because they are promoting their own forces. The Byn get a bad rap by these guys, but it's all IC. It's important to not "drink the kool-aid" so to speak in this regard.
Many players that join the Byn go in thinking if it isn't fun (and they survive), they can always leave and join some other clan as a valuable asset. The Byn after all used to be a newbie school of sorts, and still serves that purpose.
When evaluating a clan, one should first look at the NPCs and all of the virtual part of the clan (that usually makes up a much larger percentage of the clan than the PC portion), however this may be difficult because most people almost always are interacting with the PCs in the clan and that is determining their impression of the clan. So it is often easy to get a misrepresentation of a clan based on the players in it (one good reason for players in a clan to try to represent that clan accurately).
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 11, 2011, 10:11:24 AM
The Byn is (should be?) like the French Foreign Legion, as far as social acceptability and expertise, methinks.
The Byn is actually more like a temp agency -- they're not "employer" so much as "service provider". It is a
brand name For the nobility/wealthy that brand names makes it easy to pass out contracts -- no real need to do background checks or fear the mercenary group is going to turn around and bite.
For the mercenary that brand name means a fairly ongoing stream of good/solid contracts. Not to mention the "street cred" of belonging to a well-known gang of thugs (no one is going to try and take that contract from you behind your back) and a chance at networking with more seasoned mercs who can show you a thing or two about life and making sid.
What the Byn is NOT is a
House Houses are actual, full-time, employment be it serving the nobility or GMH families directly. (The difference between working at the local "we build computers" shop in town and actually being able to say, "I work for Google/ Apple/ etc"
This doesn't look like the topic anymore...