Reverse Guild Sniffing

[Synthesis]

I dunno guys ... if you join the Byn but don't want to play warrior something seems wrong.

[not sure if serious.jpg]

I suspect that the Byn is rarely, if ever, predominantly composed of warriors.

[musashi]

And the Tuluki bardic circle is rarely if ever predominately composed of mundanes. What's your point?

[Synthesis]

And the Tuluki bardic circle is rarely if ever predominately composed of mundanes. What's your point?

The bardic circle isn't the Byn. What's your point?

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I would expect Amos to suck it up and participate because I told him to and if Amos would rather whine than do what I tell him to, fuck Amos.

Once Amos has graduated to trooper, private, guard, rockstar I expect Amos to be trusted to be productive during these drills in some way. Either by taking the new recruits who would benefit from some other type of training and providing it, supervising behavior if needed, doing some sort of maintenance, or participating as best he can.

+1

As for the Musashi-Synthesis spat, I'm going to have to side with Synth. I forgot where I read it, but there was an awesome quote like: "In a group of warriors, the one with scan wins." Rangers are extremely necessary to the Byn. Also, I usually suspect like a 1/4 of them are assassins just grinding up until they reach the point where they can safely go off and backstab everything that scuttles around the wastelands.

Unless by "play warrior" you meant "act as though you are actually training to be a bad-ass warrior/merc" instead of "chose warrior at gen."

Bottom line: if you hire into a clan as a mercenary/guard/etc, you need to expect that they're going to expect you to behave like a merc/guard/etc. After that, you have more trust and freedom to pursue your own goals. It's a lot like the army. At first, you're in boot camp learning the basics to survive. After you've done your exercising, sparring, shooting, etc you go to Advanced Individual Training where you learn to be an inventory clerk who pushes pencils and will probably never touch a firearm in a combat situation. Most leaders will give the tried and proven underlings this modicum of freedom. Really, a month and a half isn't a very long time to ask you to play along.

And to be frankly honest, my clan isn't a training ground for your assassin/rogue magicker/aspiring spam hunter. If you want to max out your stealth and play with poison, do it on your own time. If you want to stick around after the first year... Well, then I might give you special consideration.

[Sokotra]

A good reason to be able to learn any skill... even if, as a burglar or something, you could only learn to land a kick maybe 1 in 10 times.

Otherwise, the solution would be to leave a request to the staff saying "Hey, I'm just a thief but I've been drilling and practicing bash, kick, guard, and rescue for the last year or two.. here's the logs of me RP'ing along with it.  Can I get at least a minimum ability with these skills?"

Not sure what you would get exactly, but I think it would be a reasonable request.

[musashi]

Bottom line: if you hire into a clan as a mercenary/guard/etc, you need to expect that they're going to expect you to behave like a merc/guard/etc. After that, you have more trust and freedom to pursue your own goals. It's a lot like the army. At first, you're in boot camp learning the basics to survive. After you've done your exercising, sparring, shooting, etc you go to Advanced Individual Training where you learn to be an inventory clerk who pushes pencils and will probably never touch a firearm in a combat situation. Most leaders will give the tried and proven underlings this modicum of freedom. Really, a month and a half isn't a very long time to ask you to play along.

And to be frankly honest, my clan isn't a training ground for your assassin/rogue magicker/aspiring spam hunter. If you want to max out your stealth and play with poison, do it on your own time. If you want to stick around after the first year... Well, then I might give you special consideration.

This is what my point was. A lot of people in the Byn are not guild warrior. Duh. But the Byn is a military outfit that does military training. If you don't want to do military training, join a different clan. The Byn spars and does guard/rescue drills.

[BleakOne]

I do like the idea of, after your PC notices the person doesn't have the knack for the skill, changing things up a bit. If you're doing rescue drills, maybe the person who doesn't have the reflexes/is too small/can't seem to get the hang of rescueing or guarding can be perma-merchant. Then he gets to practise fending off the 'gith', while the others get more time each as 'guard'.

[number13]

The requirement that a skill be trained through repetitiousness activity is the problem.  If Guard could be trained up to a useful level through teaching and normal play, we wouldn't have dozens (hundreds?) of guard drills for people without the skill to suffer through

[Spoon]

I suspect that the Byn is rarely, if ever, predominantly composed of warriors.

Oh, but it is. I really don't know where you got this idea from. From my extensive experience, the majority of Byn are warriors. I would say the Byn is rarely, if ever, not predominantly composed of warriors.

[Synthesis]

I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of the guard/rescue training, anyway.

It's one afternoon out of an entire IC week.

I think the bigger problem is when a Sergeant PC decides to teach all the noobs "parry" or "disarm," skills that only warriors start with, so chances are only 1 or 2 of the PCs in the room are even teachable, and chances are they're already too good at it for teach to be useful, anyway.  Once you sit through a hundred of these pointless exercises, it really begins to grate on your nerves.

Not saying that I would bitch about it IC and go do something else, but I sure as hell won't be on my emoting A-game.

So to avoid confusion:  I sort of agree with the OP on the OP's original points.  However, adding an additional point: if you plan on being a sergeant or military leader in any clan, master and teach skills that you can teach everyone (dual wield, two-handed, piercing weapons, ride, cook, forage); otherwise, be flexible and allow for opportunities for people to train their other skills.  If you don't, then a) they're going to be bored as fuck, and your entire unit and tenure will be boring as fuck, and nobody will care when you die and b) nobody will stay on as Troopers, and your unit will be perpetually noobish, thereby increasing the probability that you will die, and nobody will care.

[Erisine]

I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of the guard/rescue training, anyway.

It's one afternoon out of an entire IC week.

I think the bigger problem is when a Sergeant PC decides to teach all the noobs "parry" or "disarm," skills that only warriors start with, so chances are only 1 or 2 of the PCs in the room are even teachable, and chances are they're already too good at it for teach to be useful, anyway.  Once you sit through a hundred of these pointless exercises, it really begins to grate on your nerves.

Not saying that I would bitch about it IC and go do something else, but I sure as hell won't be on my emoting A-game.

So to avoid confusion:  I sort of agree with the OP on the OP's original points.  However, adding an additional point: if you plan on being a sergeant or military leader in any clan, master and teach skills that you can teach everyone (dual wield, two-handed, piercing weapons, ride, cook, forage); otherwise, be flexible and allow for opportunities for people to train their other skills.  If you don't, then a) they're going to be bored as fuck, and your entire unit and tenure will be boring as fuck, and nobody will care when you die and b) nobody will stay on as Troopers, and your unit will be perpetually noobish, thereby increasing the probability that you will die, and nobody will care.

Nobody cares about Bynners anyway.  They're just discount meatshields.

[Chettaman]

Oh man... this. This is my biggest pet peeve on Armageddon. I just want to get my anger out right now before I post anything stupid. I hate all of you who disagree!!!! ARGH!!

calm now.

Alright. I don't hate you guys. But I definately disagree with your disagreeing. Seriously. If you join the frick'n byn. Do what your told. Don't just be like, "I can't do it!" or "I don't wanna do it!" just frick'n do it. You're training so frickin' train. That's what people who are in training do. Don't just sit it out because it's not on your skill list. Forget you were playing a roleplaying game? You don't have coded damn skills IRL. You -can- get better IRL, not ICly but who cares?! You're roleplaying. If I told my drill sargeant I wasn't going to fire my M16 because I wasn't capable he would first, fuck my shit up - then tell me again to engage at the damn target. And if I failed but got close. I won't lie.. they do it. He would find some way to change the numbers that way I got enough shots into those targets. And if I didn't or failed utterly like 1 - 40 targets shot. He would make sure I got out of the army. That's right. They control everything you are during those weeks. If you are a failure or if you are a success.
In arm. The leaders control everything you are. If you are a failure or a success. If you believe the things you do during training are a waste of time, explain to the leader why what he has been doing for years doesn't work for you and how you're probably never going to get any better at doing it. He'll assess how much sense it makes and make his decision accordingly. Hopefully it's a good decision. If not. Those are the downs of being a leader. Decision making. Also the downs to being a follower. No say in anything.
- And. On another note. Leaders. Damn you for not teaching them anything and everything that could lead to a longer life. and just fighting, fighting, fighting.  Even if you, leader don't have the skill. I blame you as well for not using them. Take your people out to teach them  how to survive in the desert. This is Chettaman again saying use the damn skills you don't have. Everyone.

[Lizzie]

The problem with that arguement Chet, is that in real life, you -are- capable of firing off that M15 rifle. If you weren't, it'd be because you were missing your trigger finger, or lacked the eyesight required to see a target, or had balance issues bad enough to not be capable of holding the thing. Your boot camp officers would've figured that out, if the recruiters didn't notice it. You never would have made it to the war.

In Arm, you -do- have coded skills, and you also do -not- have other coded skills. You could have perfect eyesight, perfect balance, perfect coordination, all 10 fingers functioning normally, and not have the coded capability to learn how to use a weapon. There is no IC explanation for it; it's a code issue. The same with guard. There's a chance you might successfully guard someone at some point, but the odds are, if you don't have the coded skill, you will ultimately fail. And there is no IC explanation for it, you have to make one up. The lack of coded skill doesn't come with IC explanation. Why aren't you a rukkian? Because you didn't pick rukkian in chargen. Any IC reason for not being a rukkian is something you, the player, devised OOCly, to create a reason for your character. Why do you always fail rescue? Because your character lacks the coded skill to rescue. Why, when someone goes through all the effort to RP teaching you the skill, even going so far as to use the "teach" command, you never get any better and consistently suck at it? Because your character is not codedly capable of getting any better. No matter how strong, agile, low-encumbered, intelligent, wise, thoughtful, stragetically-minded, and quick, he will ultimately fail more often than not, in rescuing anyone, from anything, in a coded way that would result the rescued person no longer being in combat.

The game isn't realistic. It's playable, and it can be believable. But it isn't based on reality, and it isn't realistic. If it were, commoners would be literate, and someone would've figured out how to fix the plumbing in Allanak instead of having open shit-holes all over the city by now.

[Bacon]

I'm not breaking character either as the rookie or as the leader. If I'm the rookie and my leader tells me to do something that I don't have the skill for, I'm going to act IC and do it or expect to suffer the consequences of choosing in character not to do so. If I'm a leader and someone says they don't want to do something (because they don't have the skill) for whatever reason, if it's not ICly reasonable, I'm going to kick their ass, kick them out, or there will be some other consequence. Deal with it in character and suffer the consequences if there should realistically be some.
But I don't have that skill and I don't want to rp learning about it since I don't. Bullshit. Don't fuckin' join a clan then unless it's to learn the particular thing you want to learn about.

[Chettaman]

"realistic" is the wrong word, I think. Or in my opinion. A better way to put it would be to state that our world. And zalanthas world are different.

You can always emote instead of actually using the skill or actually use a skill you don't have.
Unless of course it were 'unrealistic'. But every mundane skill is emoteable.

But... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.

[Erisine]

"realistic" is the wrong word, I think. Or in my opinion. A better way to put it would be to state that our world. And zalanthas world are different.

You can always emote instead of actually using the skill or actually use a skill you don't have.
Unless of course it were 'unrealistic'. But every mundane skill is emoteable.

But... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.

This, I think, should be acceptable. 

The difference between the training ring and "real life" (er, Zalanthas real life) is the pressure.  It's one thing to successfully guard your fellow recruit from another fellow recruit, it's a whole 'nother story for you to guard Lord Thingamajig when you're being ambushed.  If you don't have the skill to do it "for real", maybe its because your character lacks the nerve in that situation. 

The problem with roleplaying it out is, I can definitely see a lot of players getting mad about it because you want actually type 'guard man' and use the skill, but use emotes instead.  How dare you make them miss another twink-skill-learning session!?  ;P

[Kalai]

Particularly confusing is when leader tries to explain how to use the command OOC and such. That can be awkward.

[Saellyn]

Code Select Expand

Your sergeant says, oocly:
     "Type, 'guard amos' now, please."

emote stands next to ~amos, placing himself sort of in front of the guy.

You stand next to the tall, muscular man, placing himself in front of the guy.

Your sergeant says, oocly:
     ".... Type. Guard. Amos."

You say, oocly:
     "I don't want to use a skill I don't have."

Your sergeant attacks you!

^ In the above, maybe you should file a player complaint because he's forcing you to do something with code you don't want to do, but even that 1-100 chance you have to guard must be nice. I'd say... jsut type "guard guy" after a really sick emote, fail, and get bitched out!

[Riev]

I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.

You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.

[Kalai]

Mm. Try rescue for your examples here (I think that's a relevant command), not guard, and you'll see where the trouble lies. IIRC, failures don't echo.

[hyzhenhok]

Code Select Expand

Your sergeant says, oocly:
    "Type, 'guard amos' now, please."

emote stands next to ~amos, placing himself sort of in front of the guy.

You stand next to the tall, muscular man, placing himself in front of the guy.

Your sergeant says, oocly:
    ".... Type. Guard. Amos."

You say, oocly:
    "I don't want to use a skill I don't have."

Your sergeant attacks you!

^ In the above, maybe you should file a player complaint because he's forcing you to do something with code you don't want to do, but even that 1-100 chance you have to guard must be nice. I'd say... jsut type "guard guy" after a really sick emote, fail, and get bitched out!

...and what's stopping you from using the coded skill? You can attempt any skill you don't have. He's asking you to attempt it.

Frankly, it's absolutely wrong to be so obvious about the OOC fact you don't have a skill. That will be apparent when it turns out you're no good at it. But the sergeant shouldn't know you're no good at it, and neither should your PC, until you try the drill several times over a period and there's no improvement.

This is exactly the "reverse guild sniffing" the OP is talking about: you're trying to take an OOC fact of your guild, a fact that I may not be interested in at all in the context of the training drill, and beat me over the head with it. Just play along. You can roleplay out being terrible without being all "HEY GUYS I'M NOT A WARRIOR."

[hyzhenhok]

Mm. Try rescue for your examples here (I think that's a relevant command), not guard, and you'll see where the trouble lies. IIRC, failures don't echo.

Classes that have this skill fail it all the time when they're newbies, too, so I don't see how it's relevant at all. Any class can attempt to participate, and emote accordingly, and it'll be hard to tell the difference between an assassin and a newb warrior until you're runner year is nearly over.

But PCs who flat out refuse to participate because it's not on their skill list are being OOC douches and IC disobedient.

[Erisine]

I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.

You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.

If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.

The fact that you are not engaging a mechanic or not is an OOC matter.  In this case, I wouldn't consider it metagaming since you are replacing a mechanic with an appropriate roleplayed substitution -- and so long as you don't RP being super-duper awesome at it, I don't see the issue.  In the end, the person without the skill is not benefiting from anything at all, codedly speaking.  "Metagaming" comes in when you see this:

Your recruit says, oocly,
    "This isn't in my skill list.  This is a dumb waste of time.  Let's do cooking instead."

In the above statement, he's trying to redirect the IC situation even though its inappropriate because it benefits him codedly.  

Honestly, the only people I see suffering from this are the people who think it's fun to do "guard/charge/reset" for the 100,000th time in the same RL week.  I was in enough of these training sessions to know that 99% of them occur WITHOUT a lot of instructional RP, just code drills.  And THAT, my friends, is metagaming.

[Bacon]

Any class can attempt to participate, and emote accordingly, and it'll be hard to tell the difference between an assassin and a newb warrior until you're runner year is nearly over.
But PCs who flat out refuse to participate because it's not on their skill list are being OOC douches and IC disobedient.

This.

[X-D]

But... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.

That is totally untrue. Like on a scale of 1 to 10... -6,009.