Reverse Guild Sniffing

[Riev]

I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.

You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.

If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.

Kindly disagree. If you are using emotes, to replace something handled by code, I'm probably going to file a player complaint. Thats the same as EMOTING that you're guarding someone, but not guarding them. Or EMOTING that you're striking them, but not. Its dangerously close to power emoting.

[Erisine]

I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.

You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.

If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.

Kindly disagree. If you are using emotes, to replace something handled by code, I'm probably going to file a player complaint. Thats the same as EMOTING that you're guarding someone, but not guarding them. Or EMOTING that you're striking them, but not. Its dangerously close to power emoting.

You do know why people don't like power-emoting in the first place, right???

I would love to see what an immortal would have to say to such a complaint.  To be honest, unless I am SPOOFING game lines in a direct attempt to mislead you, the player, into doing something you would not normally do, then there isn't an issue.  

If I chose to ROLEPLAY a guarding session, how does this negative effect you?  It doesn't.  Unless, of course, you, THE PLAYER, is upset because you don't get to see automated combat scrolling all over your screen and you get to miss that % of a chance to get another skill point.  I personally would COMMEND another player if they chose to skip the usual routine code-barf and instead PARTICIPATED in the IC training through roleplay.  Cuz, that takes effort.  Typing 'guard man' does not.

If a player tried to force me to engage in a coded mechanic in a situation where there is a roleplay alternative (i.e, I am not trying to kill someone, or complete a craft where an actual, physical product is expected, or NPCs -- who are unable to "play along" -- are involved), then I would probably report them.

If you are in a leadership position, your job is not to make sure that I "learn the game" via repetitive waves of code drills.  Your "job", in an OOC sense, is to fill a role where you are in a position to drive roleplay and help connect players and plots.  If you are spending your time doing to safe thing of making people do blah code drills over and over, you're not a good leader and I hope you don't get another shot at such a role.  Of course, that's just my opinion as someone who looks up to these "leaders".


Edited to add:

I have in the past declined to participate in coded drills, and instead did RP ones.  I have also had Sergeants and leadership characters initiate that RP with me, instead of "training" me.  I missed a valuable "code training" session, but I gained something that was fun and worthwhile.  I will do it again -- it doesn't matter WHAT my class is.  Sometimes I'm a warrior with guard, or disarm... and sometimes, I just get really, really freaking bored with this crap.  If you have a problem with that, I welcome you to report me.

[Xagon]

Perhaps if not in the same words, I tend to follow Erisine's viewpoint. If a magicker can emote performing a cantrip it should be perfectly valid to roleplay guarding practice, or just about -any- coded scenario, using emote alone. Indeed, who's to say that standing near ~man looking about intently isn't guarding him?

There's also the issue of those skills that you can use, but have some incredible drawback for doing so, specifically the horrendous wait for the 'pick' command and other such skills.

This being said, it's not appropriate to steer the course of the game by letting one know OOCly whether or not you have a given skill. If Amos doesn't feel he can guard someone (Due to a lack of said skill), this should be communicated via ingame methods as many posters have already referred to.

When in doubt, wish up or send in a report. Staff'll let you know if you're doing something completely wrong.

[BleakOne]

I'm all for RPing it out. As long as you don't make a big deal of how good your skills are, I don't see a problem with it. As long as you RP failing if someone codedly gets past your RPed guarding, it's all cool.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.

You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.

If a person uses emotes to complete a task, as far as the IC world is concerned, you are complying.

Kindly disagree. If you are using emotes, to replace something handled by code, I'm probably going to file a player complaint. Thats the same as EMOTING that you're guarding someone, but not guarding them. Or EMOTING that you're striking them, but not. Its dangerously close to power emoting.

You do know why people don't like power-emoting in the first place, right???

I would love to see what an immortal would have to say to such a complaint.  To be honest, unless I am SPOOFING game lines in a direct attempt to mislead you, the player, into doing something you would not normally do, then there isn't an issue.  

If I chose to ROLEPLAY a guarding session, how does this negative effect you?  It doesn't.  Unless, of course, you, THE PLAYER, is upset because you don't get to see automated combat scrolling all over your screen and you get to miss that % of a chance to get another skill point.  I personally would COMMEND another player if they chose to skip the usual routine code-barf and instead PARTICIPATED in the IC training through roleplay.  Cuz, that takes effort.  Typing 'guard man' does not.

If a player tried to force me to engage in a coded mechanic in a situation where there is a roleplay alternative (i.e, I am not trying to kill someone, or complete a craft where an actual, physical product is expected, or NPCs -- who are unable to "play along" -- are involved), then I would probably report them.

If you are in a leadership position, your job is not to make sure that I "learn the game" via repetitive waves of code drills.  Your "job", in an OOC sense, is to fill a role where you are in a position to drive roleplay and help connect players and plots.  If you are spending your time doing to safe thing of making people do blah code drills over and over, you're not a good leader and I hope you don't get another shot at such a role.  Of course, that's just my opinion as someone who looks up to these "leaders".


Edited to add:

I have in the past declined to participate in coded drills, and instead did RP ones.  I have also had Sergeants and leadership characters initiate that RP with me, instead of "training" me.  I missed a valuable "code training" session, but I gained something that was fun and worthwhile.  I will do it again -- it doesn't matter WHAT my class is.  Sometimes I'm a warrior with guard, or disarm... and sometimes, I just get really, really freaking bored with this crap.  If you have a problem with that, I welcome you to report me.

Why the hell are you raging against supposed skill twinks who actually treat the coded aspect of the game as something real and concrete in the game world (as it is?). You're attacking a strawman: nobody gains a skill when you fail to guard somebody else. No one but you is affected when you fail to rescue someone. So your refusal to use the code as part of your roleplay doesn't make any sense, except in the bullshit world you've contructed where code and roleplay are mutually exclusive rather than self supporting. If your clan mates aren't emoting, you can set an example while also participating in the drills.

As far as the world of Zalanthas is concerned, you are not trying to guard someone unless you >guard them. If you emote >:guards ~noble, it doesn't mean jack shit. In fact, it means you're faking it; you're pretending to guard them, but you and everyone else know your PC isn't going to attempt the guard when combat begins. Since you are not >guarding them, you are not guarding them, and expect to be yelled out for not practicing guarding during guard drills!

But seriously, why not just play along? You can throw in your emotes in addition to playing along codedly, to make it fun for you despite the lack of coded usefulness! Why not? Why assume people who want to practice their skills during skill practice time are twinky metagamers who don't care a smidgeon about roleplaying? And with this attitude that you either have useful coded skill gain, or have entertaining roleplaying experience, and that they are mutually exclusive, is extremely destructive. Please stay away from military clans if that's your attitude.

[Is Friday]

There Chettaman goes... tellin war stories.

[Nyr]

This is an RPI MUD, not an RPI MUSH--roleplay is backed by code.  That is why the code is there.  Ignoring the code to just emote, tell, say, etc. is nearly as bad as not fleshing out coded things with emotes, tells, says, hemotes, etc.  Using a coded skill in a way that doesn't make much realistic sense is tantamount to using a roleplayed skill and expecting others to simply bow to your emoting prowess.

When we get complaints like this:  "omg, I just got PKed by this dude that didn't RP," we will look into it.  However, most of the time, the RP occurred before or after the kill, with the intent being "the PK is important in the scope of this roleplayed situation."  We also occasionally get complaints like this:  "omg, this dude just ran away from my PC that was emoting blocking the exit."  We will look into that as well.  However, at least some of the time, the player "guarding" the exit isn't guarding it, nor are they subduing the character.  While it may be somewhat "bad form" to ignore the roleplay there, it is not quite as bad as you assuming your PC guarded the door without a skillcheck.  The code works WITH roleplay the vast majority of the time, not in spite of roleplay, and roleplay should work WITH code.

If you don't have the coded ability to do something that you are asked to do but emote attempting it anyway, that's fine; if you fail it in a real skill check of that skill because you don't have it (or suck at it but emoted that you did have it or were good at it), don't come to us complaining that the code didn't back up your roleplay or when you catch flak in-game for sucking and failing.  You should definitely use the code to determine how well (or how unsuccessfully) you're achieving any skill.

[maxid]

Like Nyr said.  If all you're doing is emotion, and not actually using the skill, it's kind of wrong.

If you are a merchant, but you -emote- totally blocking the door, while wearing full warrior gear, and pretending to have warrior skills via emotes, nobody is going to know that your character actually isn't at all effective at trying to contain someone unless they try.  If you don't use the skill, people might feel bad just fleeing, but without the skill, and the subsequent dice check, there's no standard to measure against, and it renders the whole thing kinda silly.  Use the skills if you emote them, they're there for a reason.

[Feco]

I was about to write something similar, then I saw Nyr had posted.

Go ahead and emote your guarding session.  When it appears as if you're not even TRYING when coded combat is initiated, I'm sure you'll have a shitstorm coming your way.

Also, don't expect people to appease you emoting holding them down, guarding an exit, training, etc.  Actually using the CODE is important, because it gives both sides a chance to do something.  Fine, emote out technique for fighting, blah blah... that's awesome and super important.  Combat code is important when it comes to practice fights, because it gives both sides the chance to hit and miss.  Could go on with tons more examples.

Not using a coded ability is, essentially, willingly taking a fail.  This would be fine, but the problem is you are often times also denying other characters the chance to succeed or fail via coded abilities;  you're just "giving" it to them (sneak vs guard), or not letting them try at all (combat).

[Sokotra]

The code is a good way to flip the coin or roll the dice and make sure everyone gets a fair chance to do whatever they are trying to do.  Otherwise it would be like calling heads or tails and arguing over the outcome without even flipping the coin.  Plus the code is just awesome.

[Xagon]

On a slightly different tangent, how similiar is the emoting of a skill to the emoting of another command?
>em falls asleep ; change ldesc is here, asleep.
I remember reading elsewhere that this particular example was okay, so long as an occasional hemote was thrown out to expose your pretending.

At the risk of treading on 'power emoting', I disagree with Nyr regarding the example of blocking a door. If one decides to emote blocking the door, the other gets the choice of emoting whether or not he's actually blocked, according to his own feelings about his character. Kind of like asking "Hey, the coin is on its edge. Do you want it to be heads or tails?"

Playing devil's advocate, this is exactly why nosave was added/updated. Emote, in my opinion, leaves the story but takes out the contest.

[brytta.leofa]

>em falls asleep ; change ldesc is here, asleep.
I remember reading elsewhere that this particular example was okay, so long as an occasional hemote was thrown out to expose your pretending.

(I think I was one of the ones asking...and the answer was more a cautious "what you said is probably a justifiable case" than a "yes, that's awesome."  If you're ever, ever going to fake a coded message, you'd better think it all the way through and err on the side of being fair to your opponent.)

[Nyr]

At the risk of treading on 'power emoting', I disagree with Nyr regarding the example of blocking a door. If one decides to emote blocking the door, the other gets the choice of emoting whether or not he's actually blocked, according to his own feelings about his character. Kind of like asking "Hey, the coin is on its edge. Do you want it to be heads or tails?"

The example provided was a complaint scenario. 

I am not saying this: No player can just roleplay using emotes/communication commands and ignore the code.
I am saying this:  If you as a player only roleplay using emotes/communication commands and you submit a complaint because you were inconvenienced by the code that is an integral part of the game (eat/drink/sleep/kill/cast/subdue/kick/backstab/sneak/hide/guard/throw/shoot/incriminate/etc.) that shouldn't trump your roleplay, it will likely be dismissed. 

No one has really suggested that they would prefer to have things as mentioned above, but that is the general staff position.  The first rule of the game is that role-playing is central to the environment and that it is a strict requirement.  Code works in tandem with roleplay to provide some structure to it, and if you discard an aspect of the code because you'd like to explore the roleplaying minefield with no coded boundaries, that is your choice to make.  However, no one is required to follow you in that regard, and should you try to emote without the code to back your emote up, be prepared for a potential lesson in rules 2, 3, and 4.

[Lizzie]

"realistic" is the wrong word, I think. Or in my opinion. A better way to put it would be to state that our world. And zalanthas world are different.

You can always emote instead of actually using the skill or actually use a skill you don't have.
Unless of course it were 'unrealistic'. But every mundane skill is emoteable.

But... like said before. You -can- become good at the skills you don't have. It just takes time.

Using an emote will not save you from coded consequences.

If you get lost in a storm, and type "emote gets out of the storm just fine, and wanders into the outpost" - you'll still be lost in the storm.

If you are successfully accosted by a backstabbing fiend, typing "emote ducks, and reverses the backstab, and stabs ~fiend in the face!" it won't save you from the perraine on the end of that blade. You -were- successfully backstabbed, whether you emote it or not.

If you come across a mekillot on your ride, emoting "veers to the left and completely avoids ~mekillot" won't make the mekillot say "oh - I missed. sorry, I'll just emote missing eating your erdlu in two bites then." Mekillot -will- eat your erdlu, and you -will- be next.

In order to change the coded consequences of the above situations, you -must- make use of the code, or hope that the code favors you with the random generator that day. You can't RP your way out of a gith attack. You just can't. It doesn't work that way in Arm.

[Lizzie]

I don't think there should ever be a time where someone asks you to do something you have the coded ability to do, such as watch, scan, guard, or what have you, but you don't because its not on your skill list.

You are being asked, by your Sergeant, to guard Amos. If you don't do it, you're disobeying. Like, straight out, the excuse "Its not on my skill list so I won't do it" is so meta it makes my ass hurt.

Agreed. On the same vein, the sergaent expecting you to devote extra IC time to drills because it's clear you totally suck at coded guarding, is unfair OOCly, when you don't have that skill and will always suck. It's not ICly unfair, it's OOCly unfair. And -that- would warrant a player complaint as well, because the player of the sergeant is rejecting the fact that other players only have "x" time to play Arm, and don't want to spend most of it roleplaying out scenes of a specific skill they are codedly incapable of succeeding with.

[Bacon]

I think it's just as OOCly unfair to put the player of the leader character in that position.

[jstorrie]

Perhaps if not in the same words, I tend to follow Erisine's viewpoint. If a magicker can emote performing a cantrip it should be perfectly valid to roleplay guarding practice, or just about -any- coded scenario, using emote alone. Indeed, who's to say that standing near ~man looking about intently isn't guarding him?

I don't understand why you wouldn't just (or also!) >guard man, since either way you're not going to successfully guard them. What's the problem here?

[wizturbo]

There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character.  People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm.  If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.

[Bilanthri]

There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character.  People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm.  If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.

On the other hand, clans are not always free to hire as many people as they want, and if you are filling a slot but failing to do the job you were hired for, expect to get booted for someone who will.

Code Select Expand



The eloquently emoting man says in sirihish, waving his clasped hands in a pleading gesture:
       "I go to training Sarge. I really do. But I never seem to improve."

The gruff and frustrated sergeant says in sirihish:
       "I hired you to work as a guard. You said you could do it, so I brought you on. You got one more shot to show me you can, otherwise, start packing your shit."



[Lizzie]

There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character.  People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm.  If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.

On the other hand, clans are not always free to hire as many people as they want, and if you are filling a slot but failing to do the job you were hired for, expect to get booted for someone who will.

Code Select Expand



The eloquently emoting man says in sirihish, waving his clasped hands in a pleading gesture:
       "I go to training Sarge. I really do. But I never seem to improve."

The gruff and frustrated sergeant says in sirihish:
       "I hired you to work as a guard. You said you could do it, so I brought you on. You got one more shot to show me you can, otherwise, start packing your shit."



That would be a Great IC and OOC solution. Unfortunately, not all clan leaders do this. I have seen someone be told to work extra time on rescue drills, because the clan leader player wanted to handle things "realistically" and in his mind, that meant that the guy *could* improve, if only he would spend a little of his free time on it.  When that happens, players get burned out. Leaders burn out on telling people to work extra time to encourage RPing of non-coded skills, players without the skills get burnt out always having to RP specific things that -are- coded for other people, but not for them..and having to spend all their online time doing so.

It's no good for anyone, after awhile. Maybe the first RL week - "okay Amos, I see you're having trouble with rescue drills. Here's an exercise I want you to use with the dummy, every time you're due for practice and no one else in the crew is around. Do that at least half of the hour, and go ahead and continue your usual stuff the other half of the hour. We'll check back in a half-month and see how you're doing then."

And a half month later, there's zero change, and Amos is RPing that he doesn't understand why he's not improving, or he's RPing that his weak arm from a war injury 20 years ago still isn't getting any stronger, or his wasting sickness looks like it's gonna be a long-term deal..

and the Sergeant just lets the guy go with a recommendation to anyone looking for a tracker since this guy clearly isn't cut out for guard work but has a good nose and sharp eyes.

[Erisine]

I think it's just as OOCly unfair to put the player of the leader character in that position.

There is a reason that we're not supposed to guild sniff in the first place -- that being, of course, that I don't think the original creators of Armageddon wanted people to play cliche class-based characters, and instead view their skills as what they are -- just skills.  You can roll up a warrior and be a pansy fan-waving prostitute who goes, "My gracious!" every time a cockroach runs across the floor, and you can roll a merchant class and join up with the Byn to be that poor clumbsy kid who (for whatever reason) thinks he's really awesome.  Clans do not have class requirements because ICly, classes do not exist.  They're there to provide skill balance so you don't get merchant-warrior-mind-flayer-super-borg PCs.

Players in leadership roles who enter the role fully expecting that all their d00dz are going to be of a certain class and should play as such have another thing coming.  In a way, I could call that metagaming.

Like Nyr said.  If all you're doing is emotion, and not actually using the skill, it's kind of wrong.

I don't think that's actually what he said. 

This is an RPI MUD, not an RPI MUSH--roleplay is backed by code.  That is why the code is there.  Ignoring the code to just emote, tell, say, etc. is nearly as bad as not fleshing out coded things with emotes, tells, says, hemotes, etc.  Using a coded skill in a way that doesn't make much realistic sense is tantamount to using a roleplayed skill and expecting others to simply bow to your emoting prowess.

Ignoring coded actions is bad RP.  If someone walks up to you and does 'cast [insert scary spell here]', just because they didn't EMOTE it, doesn't mean they didn't DO it.  You can't ignore that.  So, I absolutely agree with you.

When we get complaints like this:  "omg, I just got PKed by this dude that didn't RP," we will look into it.  However, most of the time, the RP occurred before or after the kill, with the intent being "the PK is important in the scope of this roleplayed situation."  We also occasionally get complaints like this:  "omg, this dude just ran away from my PC that was emoting blocking the exit."  We will look into that as well.  However, at least some of the time, the player "guarding" the exit isn't guarding it, nor are they subduing the character.  While it may be somewhat "bad form" to ignore the roleplay there, it is not quite as bad as you assuming your PC guarded the door without a skillcheck.  The code works WITH roleplay the vast majority of the time, not in spite of roleplay, and roleplay should work WITH code.

If you don't have the coded ability to do something that you are asked to do but emote attempting it anyway, that's fine; if you fail it in a real skill check of that skill because you don't have it (or suck at it but emoted that you did have it or were good at it), don't come to us complaining that the code didn't back up your roleplay or when you catch flak in-game for sucking and failing.  You should definitely use the code to determine how well (or how unsuccessfully) you're achieving any skill.

To Maxid, I can't see here where Nyx said RPing in a training session is wrong.  In fact, I bolded a line that seems to agree with my initial point.

There's a big difference between whining because you wandered around emoting that you're this incredible sorcerer with mind-boggling super-powers, but then you can't cast a single spell (worse still, you're playing a non-magicker class altogether).  But that again falls into the realm of bad RP -- you're RPing something that your character clearly is not, so again, I agree with this.

My rant is specifically targeted towards those moments in the game when we do not NEED code -- such as training sessions.  OOCly, these get tiresome very quickly once you're in a clan.  It's been a long-time problem that keeps a lot of people OUT of clans.  Missing chances to practice a skill against one or two players is not going to significantly hurt you, and it's not really necessary.  Choosing to emote training during clan routines does not necessarily reveal your guild, either:  the player in question can simply just be bored.  Having other players expect me NOT to RP but rather just participate in monotonous (usually silent) code drills is unfair and will lead me to not want to play in that clan again.

I just think people should remember that if someone DID approach you with an RP'd aggressive encounter, they should see it for what it likely is:  another player wants to play with you and have some fun.  It might end in a coded fight -- you might even initiate it.  But if you do, try to put forth the same amount of effort that the other person did, so that you can both walk away from it and enjoy some value. 



Last but not least,

Why the hell are you raging...

The rant was triggered because another player insinuated that they needed to report me for roleplaying, as though I was doing something very wrong; my response may have been heated and aggressive, and for that I apologize.  However, it is something I feel strongly about.

You're attacking a strawman

You're using that wrong.

So your refusal to use the code as part of your roleplay doesn't make any sense, except in the bullshit world you've contructed where code and roleplay are mutually exclusive rather than self supporting. If your clan mates aren't emoting, you can set an example while also participating in the drills.

Wrong, because you have misinterpreted my issue.  It doesn't matter if there is a skill gain or not.  I had thought that was inferred, especially with the added emphasis that coded drills are BORING.  Your argument here appears to be that I shouldn't say no to code if there's no gain in it for anyone else, either -- but that works the other way, as I can say that because NOBODY gains, then it IS a waste of time and no value at all can be gained through being forced to participate in coded drills, when they can be roleplayed.  I'm not saying people should be FORCED to RP these drills as some sort of "rule", but I'm saying that players involved in these clans should NOT be expected to participate in code drills if they still participate through roleplay.  You lose nothing.  They lose nothing.  At worst, you are forced to interact more on an intellectual level that is only slightly higher than "really, really high maaan."

As far as the world of Zalanthas is concerned, you are not trying to guard someone unless you >guard them. If you emote >:guards ~noble, it doesn't mean jack shit. In fact, it means you're faking it; you're pretending to guard them, but you and everyone else know your PC isn't going to attempt the guard when combat begins. Since you are not >guarding them, you are not guarding them, and expect to be yelled out for not practicing guarding during guard drills!

Wrong.  Unless I am POWER-EMOTING or doing things completely outside of the world context, then whatever I emote is something that my character does.  Here, power-emoting means something like, "emote backhands ~man, snapping his neck in the process!", or it could mean emoting things like, "emote sprouts wings and flies away into the sunset."  If I emote standing near you and looking around defensively, then my character is standing near you and looking around defensively.  This can be interpreted as guarding.  Thus, my character is guarding you.  Ignoring this fact is bad RP.  In this case, I'm not spoofing, so it's not like I'm trying to trick you.

Failing to guard during an emoted guard is the same thing as failing to guard during the coded guard.  Someone got through the defenses -- period.  Of course, if you really want to argue this point, then why not moan about non-warriors/guards getting into clans and practicing guard?  If they don't learn the skill, they will never use it effectively -- so when it comes time to be guarded, you're still up shit creek without a paddle.  In the end, does it really matter?  No.

But seriously, why not just play along? You can throw in your emotes in addition to playing along codedly, to make it fun for you despite the lack of coded usefulness! Why not? Why assume people who want to practice their skills during skill practice time are twinky metagamers who don't care a smidgeon about roleplaying?

See, my argument is, why don't YOU just play along?  Especially since you pointed out that you're not going to gain anything anyway.  What's the issue?

A few problems crop up during automated guard/combat attempts:
1.)  Sometimes, it's just boring.
2.)  Automated combat is not paced, so you really can't RP out a scene outside of throwing out a few emotes.  You don't get to really RP until you stop and then you're all just echoing how fatigued you all are.  Great.  Now when is my Sergeant actually going to RP and tell me why my technique is so terrible?  Maybe I'm holding the blade wrong.  Maybe my stance is bad.  I don't know -- but RPing a scene for this is a lot more valuable than not.
3.)  In my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (albeit an experience that is dated 2004-2006), people will often ignore pitched emotes during drills.  Not all of them do.  But many will.  Which brings me back to point #1, since if I wanted to RP with myself, I'd fight dummies and slap scrabs around.

As for twinky metagamers -- it's because if they can't go 20 RL minutes without needing to bitch at you for not codedly "doing it right", then they probably ARE twinky metagamers.  If presented with evidence, one can make fair assumptions.

[Erisine]

There's no golden rule that going to training drills in a combat clan must yield any kind of meaningful coded advancement for your character.  People go to class all the time in school and don't learn shit, same thing happens in Arm.  If you have limited time to play, and coded advancement is important to you, choose a role that will improve your chances of getting it.

On the other hand, clans are not always free to hire as many people as they want, and if you are filling a slot but failing to do the job you were hired for, expect to get booted for someone who will.

Code Select Expand



The eloquently emoting man says in sirihish, waving his clasped hands in a pleading gesture:
       "I go to training Sarge. I really do. But I never seem to improve."

The gruff and frustrated sergeant says in sirihish:
       "I hired you to work as a guard. You said you could do it, so I brought you on. You got one more shot to show me you can, otherwise, start packing your shit."



That would be a Great IC and OOC solution. Unfortunately, not all clan leaders do this. I have seen someone be told to work extra time on rescue drills, because the clan leader player wanted to handle things "realistically" and in his mind, that meant that the guy *could* improve, if only he would spend a little of his free time on it.  When that happens, players get burned out. Leaders burn out on telling people to work extra time to encourage RPing of non-coded skills, players without the skills get burnt out always having to RP specific things that -are- coded for other people, but not for them..and having to spend all their online time doing so.

It's no good for anyone, after awhile. Maybe the first RL week - "okay Amos, I see you're having trouble with rescue drills. Here's an exercise I want you to use with the dummy, every time you're due for practice and no one else in the crew is around. Do that at least half of the hour, and go ahead and continue your usual stuff the other half of the hour. We'll check back in a half-month and see how you're doing then."

And a half month later, there's zero change, and Amos is RPing that he doesn't understand why he's not improving, or he's RPing that his weak arm from a war injury 20 years ago still isn't getting any stronger, or his wasting sickness looks like it's gonna be a long-term deal..

and the Sergeant just lets the guy go with a recommendation to anyone looking for a tracker since this guy clearly isn't cut out for guard work but has a good nose and sharp eyes.

I think dealing with a lack of apparent skill ICly is the best possible solution.  If they can't do the job, then they can't do the job.  This does not conflict with spicing things up between code drills and RP'd drills. 

As for your point about getting burned out, I absolutely understand this.  I think, however, this is more of an issue in clans that are OVERLY routine; I see no reason for folks to look for ways to shake up the usual clan rotations.  It's assumed that your PC does these during their virtual time when you're offline, so they are not actually "missing" a lot of sessions by having your usual "armor repair" session interrupted by some mini-RPT. 

[musashi]

Whoa ... tl;dr.

[morrigan]

o.0    It's 6 am, I hope I'm able to string words together in a meaningful manner..

Most of you guys are really good at not letting opinions and conventions from our world leak into the game world. You treat women as equals and try to avoid language and behavior that would imply there was any bias. You don't bat an eye at homosexual behavior. You do well...but this whole argument seems to be based on our society's sense of self entitlement. It has been decided OOC'ly that joining the Byn is a great way to advance your character's combat skills and get them trained up to be badass fighters. So now it's almost as though every player feels they have the right for their character, no matter what they are, to join the Byn and get specialized training tailored specifically to their guild.

Does this not sound odd to any of you?

The Byn is a combat organization. People hire them to kill things. You hire them to escort you somewhere, why? To kill the bad things that want to eat you. You hire them to clear roads..by killing things. You hire them for special missions..that involve killing things. Soo...the Byn trains it's recruits to kill things. With swords. With clubs. With spears. With bows.

So, we all know that the Byn trains warriors.(profession, not guild) If it's not your skillset and you don't want to go through the training that your IC leaders prescribe, perhaps you should consider not joining the Byn. Yes, yes...I know..it's not -fair-. You totally deserve to have your Vivaduan join the Byn and receive lessons on making water. It's totally your -right- as a human being to have your assassin join the Byn and get special lessons on sneaking up behind someone and sticking a knife in their kidney. The other recruits can just wait while you get your special training. You only get 10 minutes a day to play, so the other players can just suck it.

The Byn teaches -all- combat skills. If you joined cause you, as a player, want your character to learn slashing weapons, then you just have to endure the guard drills, archery practice, bashing, etc. You still also get the slashing weapons training. Did the recruiter tell you when you were joining that you were guaranteed to come out of your combat training as the shadow that slinks through the city unseen leaving a trail of lung-punctured victims in your wake? It's a mercenary troupe. Not a thieve's guild or assassin school.

Sure, a good leader will utilize the skills of their subordinates. However, a training regime can't be changed because a few recruit's have different skill sets. There are vNPC recruits and troupers as well. The training caters to the majority, not the minority. I have to agree with Chettaman on this one. If I had told my drill sergeant in the Army that I was simply no good at running, or cleaning my gun, or making my bed, or marching in cadence, or throwing grenades he would have stared at me like I was an idiot, told me of course I was no good at it, I was too stupid to realize who was in charge, so I was obviously too stupid to mop a floor but to do it anyway, right effing now before he ripped my intestines out through my bunghole.

Those of you arguing that you play to have fun, so should have tailored lessons:

I understand what you mean, I really, really, really do. However, if you have limited time, or just don't want to have to suffer through it, don't join. You're ignoring the IC purpose of the Byn and trying to make it fit into your idea of what you deserve as a human in the real world, rather than looking that what your character would be expected to do in Zalanthas. Form a group of friends. Buy sparring weapons. Only practice what you want.

[musashi]

Well spoken sir.