Armageddon General Discussion Board

Hey guys,

I personally think Staff's decision to have elves look onto Wagons as they look onto Mounts is kind of ridiculous.

I know it's beating a dead horse in a way, but I wonder what you as players think about this now, several months after the decision was made. Both as players of elves, and those that play with elves.

I don't like the policy, either.

Quote from: Synthesis on September 10, 2010, 07:53:53 PM
I don't like the policy, either.

It DOES make sense though.

Too proud for anything but their own two feet.

I like the policy. If anything a wagon should be even worse then a mount for an elf.

I mean, at least the mount the rider controls, the wagon, just a passenger...cause nobody would allow an elf to pilot one.

It doesnt bother me. What bothers me is that the Skimmer is put into the same category.

I have no problem with this.  Elves are too proud to be moved by anything but themselves.  Yes, I know the playability arguments about city elves, but they don't have to leave the city.  Any of them that take a job where they have to, well, they made a bad decision, or the player did.  Perhaps we could all just deal with that and simply not play city elves that go to work for Kurac, the Byn or other clans that would require them to go outside.

Quote from: Marshmellow on September 10, 2010, 08:12:39 PM
I have no problem with this.  Elves are too proud to be moved by anything but themselves.  Yes, I know the playability arguments about city elves, but they don't have to leave the city.  Any of them that take a job where they have to, well, they made a bad decision, or the player did.  Perhaps we could all just deal with that and simply not play city elves that go to work for Kurac, the Byn or other clans that would require them to go outside.

Eh, it's this kind of argument that makes me cringe. I think elves make perfect sense in clans like the Byn or Kurac, but this playability limitation makes it difficult all around.

They make sense, if they can be given duties that won't require them to go outside.  They should be able to be given such duties, but the way the game works, all the PCs generally are given the same sort of duties, and that generally means, for those clans, that they are required to go outside.  You know this is how elves are, and you know that is how some clans are... so you can choose to play the role, if you're looking for a tough role to play.  If you simply want to play in Kurac or the Byn, though, why do you have to play a city elf?  Couldn't you come up with a similar concept that wouldn't be so difficult due to IC restrictions?

Question: Do the elfs get bitchslapped if they get on the wagon/skimmer in order to raid it? Or is that a find out IC thing?

Been wondering that awhile...

Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on September 10, 2010, 08:21:18 PM
Question: Do the elfs get bitchslapped if they get on the wagon/skimmer in order to raid it? Or is that a find out IC thing?

If they're raiding, presumably the vessel is not moving, therefore the elf isn't using it for movement, therefore it's fine. But an elf couldn't get on a vessel to move it to some other location as part of the raid.

The last time I played an elf raiding a wagon, we killed the animals pulling it first.

Of course at the time you had to have animals pulling it.

An elven raider has entered the large, badass war argosy.

You shout in sirihish, "Quick, start moving! He'll jump off!"

The large, badass war argosy rumbles and shakes as it moves.

An elven raider leaves the large, badass war argosy.

While amusing, Wolfsong, that's not how it would work in the end.

Ideally, in the future, wagons will require animals to pull them again.  Maybe not in Arm1, but in Arm2, hopefully.

Nobody really cares that city-elves get utterly screwed by the policy, and that it makes no sense for them, since they can't fucking run in the desert any better than a damn dwarf can...actually, dwarves could probably run farther, since they get a much better endurance stat.

I actually love not having to ride in a wagon. A wagon is soo boring and soo untouchable. Atleast when I am running outside of it, I am not trapped and I can see what is coming up. Pilotting a wagon is equally as boring an uneventful. You are in your own room, unable to know what is happening anywhere.

I think we should change from giant wagon houses to actual wagons that were used IRL. Specially since most wagons are less wagons and more warehouses that move.

It's a playability issue.

A silt skimmer isn't a mount. Workarounds: Drown the elf. Problems: It's an elf, who cares?

A wagon isn't a mount. Workarounds: the elf can walk beside the wagon. Problems: The elf's constant resting will hold up the caravan.

I don't agree with the rule, but a rule is a rule. Don't play a city elf unless you're willing to avoid any rpt that would incorporate the modes of transportation mentioned.

It makes sense, but it sucks.

Personally I think that city elves should have learned to swallow their cultural pride long ago, since the two are being treated as groups so distinct they are actually somewhat racially different.  I don't see them as receiving sufficient advantages to make up for the glaring lack of mobility.  This is just my perception as a relatively new player.

The biggest problem:

City elves pride their legs over anything else, yet receive no bonus to running in the city. A bonus would balance things a bit imo.

Yeaah.... Honestly, I think a c-elf who rides kanks/wagons/skimmers should be looked down upon and disrespected by other c-elves who pointlessly cling to their old ways.... Not get bitchslapped by Staff.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2010, 05:31:21 AM
Yeaah.... Honestly, I think a c-elf who rides kanks/wagons/skimmers should be looked down upon and disrespected by other c-elves who pointlessly cling to their old ways.... Not get bitchslapped by Staff.

This could cause some interesting conflict actually, purging of the impure perhaps?

Quote from: Kiara on September 11, 2010, 05:24:33 AMCity elves pride their legs over anything else, yet receive no bonus to running in the city. A bonus would balance things a bit imo.

You sure about that?

Quote from: Marshmellow on September 11, 2010, 07:33:40 AM

Quote from: Kiara on September 11, 2010, 05:24:33 AMCity elves pride their legs over anything else, yet receive no bonus to running in the city. A bonus would balance things a bit imo.

You sure about that?

Absolutely positive.

Last I checked, your mvs pool was drained when running. This should not happen with a city elf. Maybe it was changed recently.

Quote from: Kiara on September 11, 2010, 07:36:32 AM

Quote from: Marshmellow on September 11, 2010, 07:33:40 AM

Quote from: Kiara on September 11, 2010, 05:24:33 AMCity elves pride their legs over anything else, yet receive no bonus to running in the city. A bonus would balance things a bit imo.

You sure about that?

Absolutely positive.

Last I checked, your mvs pool was drained when running. This should not happen with a city elf. Maybe it was changed recently.

In probably 75% of the rooms in Allanak, city-elves do not lose stamina when running.  You obviously weren't running in the right rooms.

Despite this, being practically restricted to the city sucks big-time unless you're a) a griefer who really enjoys soloing around fucking with people for no reason or b) you're in a clan, and the clan is very active.

So, of course, most city-elves (in Allanak, at least) are solo griefers, with the possible exception of two highly unusual outlier periods that I know people will make vague references to and imply were somehow the norm, which they were not.  And even then, you could probably make a case that these periods were merely organized griefing as opposed to solo griefing.

But whatever.  City-elves suck (and I mean this mostly in the sense of "fun to play," although there is undoubtedly a large degree of coded suckitude that goes along with this), but I suppose they're a decent way to up your GDB 1337ness cred.

Quote from: Synthesis on September 11, 2010, 08:00:07 AM
But whatever.  City-elves suck (and I mean this mostly in the sense of "fun to play," although there is undoubtedly a large degree of coded suckitude that goes along with this), but I suppose they're a decent way to up your GDB 1337ness cred.

Every race has a degree of 'suckitude.'  The key is finding the races that YOU find the strengths outweigh the weaknesses.

Elves don't have high enough strength to OHK with backstab, that's why Synthesis hates them.

I still think it's fine the c-elves can't ride.

IRL, culture/taboo isn't always practical.

Races/culture in Armageddon aren't all meant to be "balanced".

If the inability to efficiently travel would make the game un-fun for you, don't play a city elf.  I'd also shy away from noble house aides and 'rinthers in general, as they tend to be largely city-bound as well.

The Skimmer thing REALLY needs to be looked at a bit longer.

I'm all for walking/running beside the wagon though.

I like the consistency of it. I'm not sure how much it detracts from playability, but I think maybe playability could be fixed (if it needs to be) without changing the policy.

Except most elves probably aren't stupid/proud enough to think they can run across the Silt Sea.

Where's the sense of pride in trying to run across a surface that you most certainly cannot. Using the same logic, an elf would never board a flying machine.

Why would you want to be on something you can't control, over a semi-liquid that you can't escape, and with no clear benefit of doing any such thing?

If I were an elf, I wouldn't want to do that.

None of my PCs, of any race have been willing to get on a skimmer.

Thank goodness stars are not visible.  If there was ever an elven astronomer, the entire species would become unhinged upon realizing they are standing on a massive rock MOVING through space.  Only the whirans would survive with their dignity intact.

Of course, the non-whirans would still have too much pride to admit that they couldn't fly and so they would jump off cliffs to show off their pride in their flying.  As they lay shattered and dying at the bottom of the shield wall, their last words would be, "I'm so proud of my flying."

Quote from: Sam on September 11, 2010, 09:15:50 PM
Why would you want to be on something you can't control, over a semi-liquid that you can't escape, and with no clear benefit of doing any such thing?

If I were an elf, I wouldn't want to do that.

Ahh....now that's a different motive all together. Pride is one thing, but common sense and survival are certainly prime motivators for avoiding skimmers.

Quote from: Thunkkin on September 11, 2010, 10:23:52 PM
Thank goodness stars are not visible.  If there was ever an elven astronomer, the entire species would become unhinged upon realizing they are standing on a massive rock MOVING through space. 

Sig'd.

Quote from: Sam on September 11, 2010, 09:15:50 PM
Why would you want to be on something you can't control, over a semi-liquid that you can't escape, and with no clear benefit of doing any such thing?

If I were anelf half-giant, human, dwarf or half-elf, I wouldn't want to do that.

That's a ridiculous reason.

No wagons? Sure.

No mounts? Whatever.

But come on, at least give elves skimmers, yeah?

Give Stormer elves -something- to fucking do, 'cause nine times out of ten, they're sure as shit not leeching off the usually non-existent playerbase there.

Quote from: HavokBlue on September 11, 2010, 08:46:22 PM
Except most elves probably aren't stupid/proud enough to think they can run across the Silt Sea.

Quote from: HavokBlue on September 11, 2010, 08:46:22 PM
Except most elves probably aren't stupid/proud enough to think they can run across the Silt Sea.

Quote from: HavokBlue on September 11, 2010, 08:46:22 PM
Except most elves probably aren't stupid/proud enough to think they can run across the Silt Sea.

Quote from: HavokBlue on September 11, 2010, 08:46:22 PM
Except most elves probably aren't stupid/proud enough to think they can run across the Silt Sea.

Quote from: HavokBlue on September 11, 2010, 08:46:22 PM
Except most elves probably aren't stupid/proud enough to think they can run across the Silt Sea.

This bears repeating.

If you want to sail the silt sea... don't play an elf?

Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 12, 2010, 02:13:04 AM
If you want to sail the silt sea... don't play an elf?

Or, just admit that the silt sea and solid ground are not, nor will they ever be, the same thing.

It's still a vehicle, the skimmers.  Elves don't intentionally ride anything.

Quote from: Marshmellow on September 12, 2010, 03:14:54 AM
It's still a vehicle, the skimmers.  Elves don't intentionally ride anything.

Show me in the documentation where it says elves are opposed to riding a silt skimmer. I'm telling you now, it's not there.

Quote
Roleplaying:
  Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert
tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime,
per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons
outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to
test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

First, I'd like to point out a glaring inconsistency in the aforementioned doc:

In the previous sentence, I highlighted "usually", because that implies that sometimes, an elf -might- ride in a wagon. Contrasting this statement is the following sentence, which uses "never." That should be fixed, one way or the other.

Second, I see no mentioning of silt skimmers. Furthermore, the last sentence mentions an elf's pride in reference to their "natural speed and endurance on the run." Last I checked, one cannot run along the surface of the silt. It is, in regards to the documentation, not viable, thereby making it legal for an elf to ride a silt skimmer.

Aaah, for fuck's sake, someone just make a post about this in "Ask the Staff" already!

Silt skimmers aren't in that doc because it's an old doc that predates the coded existence of silt skimmers. Like most of the docs, it is in need of updating.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 12, 2010, 09:11:59 AM
Silt skimmers aren't in that doc because it's an old doc that predates the coded existence of silt skimmers. Like most of the docs, it is in need of updating.

LIKELY STORY!!!

If whirran elves can and do fly, why can't ordinary elves hop on a skimmer to reach an island?

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 09:51:38 AM
If whirran elves can and do fly, why can't ordinary elves hop on a skimmer to reach an island?

Now now, that's TOTALLY different.  ::)

I want to play a skimmer-riding elf as much as anybody, but consider this: a small pack of city elves could own (inasmuch as it is possible for anyone) the Silt Sea.  Is that really appropriate?

Shouldn't going Outside be approximately as horrifying to a city elf as going Inside is to a desert elf?

Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 12, 2010, 10:25:36 AM
Shouldn't going Outside be approximately as horrifying to a city elf as going Inside is to a desert elf?

I agree, and usually play my c-elves that way, but some do get out. In fact, one city tribe makes long and hard organized trips out.

As for is it appropriate, well, why not, let them try if they're sufficiently ICly mad or desperate.

edit: for about 99% it's something unthinkable, but not because of their pride in their legs.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 12, 2010, 10:25:36 AM
Shouldn't going Outside be approximately as horrifying to a city elf as going Inside is to a desert elf?

I don't see why this would have to be the case. For desert elves, it's a matter of pride. For city elves, I'm not so certain.

Quote from: Kiara on September 12, 2010, 02:52:16 AM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 12, 2010, 02:13:04 AM
If you want to sail the silt sea... don't play an elf?

Or, just admit that the silt sea and solid ground are not, nor will they ever be, the same thing.

I'll admit that just fine.

However, I'm not sure I'm ready to make the distinction that wagons and skimmers are not the same thing.

I'm not trying to be rude, but how can wagons and silt skimmers be considered the same thing?

Wagons are pulled by mounts. Silt Skimmers are not.

Wagons have wheels, and move under the power of beasts. Silt Skimmers do not.

Wagons travel over solid ground. Silt Skimmers do not.

If you travel outside without a wagon, you won't necessarily die. If you travel in the Silt Sea without a skimmer, you will die.

If there was a feasible way to travel on the sea without a skimmer, I'd be all for elves traveling under the power of their own legs. However, this is currently not possible.

Guys, guys... Just wait.

I've got this shit handled.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39620.msg553598.html#new

I don't think it bruises the pride of an elf to board a wagon with his tribemates in order to kill and raid. So what if the wagon moved for a stretch of the road during that time? Also, if an elf got into his head that he really needs to cross the silt sea, of he was paid to kill someone on the skimmer, he'd do it. Elves are proud, but not stupid. What do you think happens to an elf who breaks both of his legs in a fall? His tribemates leave him there or put him on a mount and carry him back home? If elves weren't adaptable, they'd never settle in the cities, for example.

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 12:03:19 PM
I don't think it bruises the pride of an elf to board a wagon with his tribemates in order to kill and raid. So what if the wagon moved for a stretch of the road during that time? Also, if an elf got into his head that he really needs to cross the silt sea, of he was paid to kill someone on the skimmer, he'd do it. Elves are proud, but not stupid. What do you think happens to an elf who breaks both of his legs in a fall? His tribemates leave him there or put him on a mount and carry him back home? If elves weren't adaptable, they'd never settle in the cities, for example.

I've always had it planned in my head....

Here's the step-by-step:

A) Make a human character.

B) Find it worthy to go through all the bullshit of making an elven friend.

C) Pass all of his silly trials with flying colors, gain his trust.

D) Every time we plan to cover long distances and need to rest for the fiftyith time....

E) Give him a drink of milk to calm his nerves.*

F) Wait for him to pass out.

G) Tie him to the pack mount.

H) Travel to destination.

I) Lie to him and say he just passed out from exhaustion on the way when he wakes up.

* (actually poisoned with knock-out poison)

KINDA LIKE HOW THE A-TEAM GOT B.A. TO FLY IN HELICOPTERS!

;D

Quote from: Kiara on September 12, 2010, 10:46:08 AM

Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 12, 2010, 10:25:36 AMShouldn't going Outside be approximately as horrifying to a city elf as going Inside is to a desert elf?

I don't see why this would have to be the case. For desert elves, it's a matter of pride. For city elves, I'm not so certain.

You're wrong, Kiara.  It's not always pride, but sometimes horror or prudence.  The tribe has an influence on which feeling would be the strongest, but that's truth for you.

OMG, Qzzrbl... that is so damn hilarious.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 12, 2010, 12:21:01 PM
OMG, Qzzrbl... that is so damn hilarious.

App an elf-- you may wind up being the lucky one.

That's even -more- funny.

If the elves got on a wagon with the intent to raid and the wagon moved, they would not care.

The intent was not to use the wagon for travel, so, no shame.

As for the skimmer. To be honest, I think an elf that was willing to board one would have to be certifiable. To be honest I think it should be added to the docs that no elf would ever ride a skimmer...ever. The idea of being trapped in a situation where you cannot run if you wanted to should be totally outside the elf mindset.

Quote from: Marshmellow on September 12, 2010, 12:19:18 PM

Quote from: Kiara on September 12, 2010, 10:46:08 AM

Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 12, 2010, 10:25:36 AMShouldn't going Outside be approximately as horrifying to a city elf as going Inside is to a desert elf?

I don't see why this would have to be the case. For desert elves, it's a matter of pride. For city elves, I'm not so certain.

You're wrong, Kiara.  It's not always pride, but sometimes horror or prudence.  The tribe has an influence on which feeling would be the strongest, but that's truth for you.

Actually, I'm not wrong. We're both right. BOOYAH!

Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2010, 12:24:34 PM
The idea of being trapped in a situation where you cannot run if you wanted to should be totally outside the elf mindset.

Now, that makes the most sense as an argument against.

Still, it goes the same for cities, no? What elf would want to live walled in? And yet many elves are now city elves, though probably some great misfortune brought them in.

Walls can be climbed, tunneled under, and even if not that there is plenty of room to run, rooftops, alleys, streets, sewers. Even being trapped in a room would be less a problem, doors can be broken, locks can be picked, people can be bribed.

None of that applies to a skimmer.

Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2010, 12:38:39 PM
Walls can be climbed, tunneled under, and even if not that there is plenty of room to run, rooftops, alleys, streets, sewers. Even being trapped in a room would be less a problem, doors can be broken, locks can be picked, people can be bribed.

None of that is easy at all, and probably isn't an option for most elves. Tribal leaders don't reason like that. Oh, if shit hits the fan, we'll climb over the rooftops and walls and leave the elderly, children and pregnant females behind.

I am not saying that elves should be able to make their own routine silt expeditions, just that they should be allowed to step on a skimmer if an extraordinary (rare) IC event calls for it.

I can't find anything in the docs that hints that elves in general are paranoid about being trapped or confined.

Are you sure you aren't generalizing a specific tribe's mentality?

If it was absolutely neccessary, I am sure they would be in wagons also. However, you can't make rules for exceptions. 99% of the time, Elves would never depend on something when they can depend on themselves.

I am sure if the known was going under and the only option was to get on a skimmer, they would get on the skimmer. Barring that, they won't. There is no garunteed benefit or need to do it.

Quote from: Synthesis on September 12, 2010, 12:52:21 PM
I can't find anything in the docs that hints that elves in general are paranoid about being trapped or confined.

I've been told that by staff when I first attempted to play desert elves. Also received echoes that would encourage that sort of feeling when I was perceived to take my sweet time in the city.

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 12:56:27 PM
I've been told that by staff when I first attempted to play desert elves. Also received echoes that would encourage that sort of feeling when I was perceived to take my sweet time in the city.

We're not discussing desert elves and wagons, or at least I'm not. We're talking about city elves. They spend their lives confined to city walls, and in Allanak's case, the Labyrinth as well. I agree that desert elves would get claustrophobic in cities. I disagree vehemently that city elves would feel the same.

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 12:55:07 PM
There is no garunteed benefit or need to do it.

Then why do humans, dwarves and half-giants routinely ride silt skimmers? What's the benefit of doing such?

Because humans will risk everything if a gain is POSSIBLE.
Because dwarves can't be stopped once they are COMMITTED.
Because half-giants can be CONVINCED into doing most anything.

Quote from: Kiara on September 12, 2010, 12:58:52 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 12:56:27 PM
I've been told that by staff when I first attempted to play desert elves. Also received echoes that would encourage that sort of feeling when I was perceived to take my sweet time in the city.

We're not discussing desert elves and wagons, or at least I'm not. We're talking about city elves. They spend their lives confined to city walls, and in Allanak's case, the Labyrinth as well. I agree that desert elves would get claustrophobic in cities. I disagree vehemently that city elves would feel the same.

He said elves in general. And I think that even city elves are not fond of being cornered. To them rooftops and narrow streets are as easily navigable as open desert is to d-elves.

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 12:56:27 PM
I've been told that by staff when I first attempted to play desert elves. Also received echoes that would encourage that sort of feeling when I was perceived to take my sweet time in the city.

Desert elves != City elves

In fact, in the doc about "why elves don't ride," it says they only do so because of a) pride in their ability to run and b) the belief that it's shameful to rely upon another beast for transportation.

Neither of which really applies to skimmers, at all.

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 01:02:01 PM
Because elves will risk everything if a gain is POSSIBLE.
Because elves can't be stopped once they are COMMITTED.
Because elves can be CONVINCED into doing most anything.

Also, because elves are cockroaches and will do anything to survive.

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 01:02:01 PM
Because humans will risk everything if a gain is POSSIBLE.

Elves won't?

Quote from: Synthesis on September 12, 2010, 01:04:18 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 12:56:27 PM
I've been told that by staff when I first attempted to play desert elves. Also received echoes that would encourage that sort of feeling when I was perceived to take my sweet time in the city.

Desert elves != City elves

I know, you said 'in general' so I got carried away.

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 01:02:41 PM
And I think that even city elves are not fond of being cornered. To them rooftops and narrow streets are as easily navigable as open desert is to d-elves.

There is a difference between being cornered verses feeling claustrophobic.

Elves would not trust a human with their life until that human has been through countless meaningless and meaningful tests.
Why would an elf trust a mount to do the same? A mount would pass most tests only because it could care less. A mount would fail most tests that it is interested in.
How could you properly test a wagon to be depended on when your life depends on it?
How could you properly test a skimmer to be depended on when your life depends COMPLETELY on it?

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 01:08:55 PM
How could you properly test a wagon to be depended on when your life depends on it?

The same way an elf tests any other inanimate object, such as a dagger: By using it.

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 01:08:55 PM
How could you properly test a skimmer to be depended on when your life depends COMPLETELY on it?

The same way an elf tests any other inanimate object, such as a dagger: By using it.

Inanimate objects != sentient beings.

Sentient beings can be distrusted.
Inanimate objects cannot. Well...they can, but then we'd be talking about a level of paranoia that I think simply doesn't exist in the elven mindset.

Quote from: Kiara on September 12, 2010, 01:05:59 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on September 12, 2010, 01:02:41 PM
And I think that even city elves are not fond of being cornered. To them rooftops and narrow streets are as easily navigable as open desert is to d-elves.

There is a difference between being cornered verses feeling claustrophobic.

I think that desert elves feel more than claustrophobia when they enter cities. In fact, elves are not claustrophobic (or they'd never take shelter in a cave or a canyon or whatever). I think it's just that they don't like it when their narrow space has only one way out (that they know of). Alright, enough about d-elves from me.

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 01:08:55 PM
Elves would not trust a human with their life until that human has been through countless meaningless and meaningful tests.
Why would an elf trust a mount to do the same? A mount would pass most tests only because it could care less. A mount would fail most tests that it is interested in.
How could you properly test a wagon to be depended on when your life depends on it?
How could you properly test a skimmer to be depended on when your life depends COMPLETELY on it?

If you're going to extend elven trials of trust to every inanimate object that an elf could ever use, things are going to get very confusing for folks playing elves.

>A foreign presence contacts your mind.

>The sticky-fingered elf sense you a telepathic message:
    "Help, I'm stuck in the desert. Come find me!"

>You think:
    "I'm a fucking shovel."

I am not, I am just extending it to the things that elves would ride and would then depend on greatly.

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 01:15:18 PM
I am not, I am just extending it to the things that elves would ride and would then depend on greatly.

You can't extend it to a silt skimmer, because it's not alive.

That's kinda my point...

What's next, making elves have to trust not just inanimate objects to but basic principles and laws?  "I don't believe in you any more, gravity," save versus the illusion, float away.

Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2010, 01:15:18 PM
I am not, I am just extending it to the things that elves would ride and would then depend on greatly.

Elves wouldn't fail to notice that other races depend on those things and don't usually die as a result.

There is only ONE kind of elf.

Specially when talking mindset, which, in this case we are.

Also, Mounts are not inanimate objects, Wagons are not either since they have animals pulling them and humans controlling them, Skimmers are even worse, they have humans controlling them and what, the wind, an element known to be fickle powering it.

And man, some of you are pretty bad when it comes to understanding docs, I mean, I've been called a horrible person that argues semantics when not needed but sheesh. The docs clearly state that elves feel that EVERYBODY that has not passed trust trials or is not from the same tribe is out to get them. That is by definition, paranoia.  This would also apply to the skimmer...you don't think the silt sea is out to get you, you KNOW it. You know that there is no possible escape once you are away from land, that not even your nice strong running legs can save you, your ability to steal will not save you, your ability to manipulate people or certain objects will not save you.

No, elves don't ride skimmers.

A wagon and skimmer aren't just inanimate tools. This thread wouldn't be here if they were just inanimate tools. I feel like you are arguing and don't want to change your mind because you have made it up. I will argue anyway. 'Because humans do it' is not a good reason for anything.

A mount is only a tool when you are pulling it behind you. When you ride it, a human might see it as a tool. An elf would see it as something that now controls the elf.

A wagon isn't like a hammer, cabinet, or piece of meat. When you ride in a wagon, the mounts that pull it, now control everything. Elves know that you can't control everything all of the time. Humans think they can control everything all of the time. Elves know better. Dwarves ride mounts and use wagons.because no risk is too great to complete their focus.


A skimmer isn't just some canoe over a still pond. A skimmer is something you depend on to go somewhere where you havn't seen to find something you havn't seen and then to get you back here. The risk is immeasurable. A human would take that risk,  just to take the risk. A dwarf would take the risk, because no risk is too great when dealing with their life's goal.

Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2010, 01:24:10 PM
No, elves don't ride skimmers.

What if a tribemate is kidnapped?

Alright, an example contrived as fuck, but don't you think that at least one elf from that tribe wouldn't say: "Fuck it, I ain't risking my life!"?

That would be more dependant on the tribe. Most tribes would just assume they are already dead.

Equal to getting swallowed by a mek....could Amos still be alive? Sure, but nobody is going to go check.

Too bad for Amos, his legs were not strong enough.

Here's one, just so that I can throw something into this hilarity.

What if a settlement was founded on the other side of the sea, and a group of elves decided they wanted to get in on it, so they could steal/cheat/con/etc from the other settlers?

Alright X-D, you win. I'd rather not continue discussing this issue with you. I'm allergic to broken logic.

To Kiara- What is broken about it?
FantasyWriter- What is wrong with the current group of easily swindled retard humans? I am sure humans would take skinny slaves over there. Those slaves would surely escape and harrass that settlement.

Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2010, 01:35:12 PM
That would be more dependant on the tribe. Most tribes would just assume they are already dead.

Equal to getting swallowed by a mek....could Amos still be alive? Sure, but nobody is going to go check.

Too bad for Amos, his legs were not strong enough.

Agreed, depends on both the tribe and the importance of the kidnapped, but the possibility is there. What if he knew something vital to the tribe's well being? I agree that only the bravest, most skilled or the craziest should have the guts to go on a rescue mission like that.

It is silly to call it broken logic. We are not talking about humans, but a mythical creature called in this game, an elf. A creature who, in his thinking, your logic is broken, not the other way around.

As to the village across the silt sea, the same applies to that as I wrote above. These are not dwarves with a focus to steal from people.
So, without something like a driving focus, would you take such a massive risk for unknown and questionable gain when you have more then a million people to steal from and con right next door?

QuoteAgreed, depends on both the tribe and the importance of the kidnapped, but the possibility is there. What if he knew something vital to the tribe's well being? I agree that only the bravest, most skilled or the craziest should have the guts to go on a rescue mission like that.

Alright, one can always come up with a situation where the rule might be broken. Assuming the correct tribe and the tribemembers believing that said elf is ALL important to the tribes continued survivals, they might try and find some way to save the kidnapped member...though, I think they would search for ways other then actually getting on a skimmer.

Kiara, the problem is you keep on trying to apply logic to thwart elven taboos which are clearly irrational.  Furthermore, the fact that you're attempting to thwart this aspect of elven culture is somewhat tantamount to trying to play a smart half-giant or a Tuluki noble who sleeps with commoners.

I'm still perplexed as to why this is such an issue anyway.  Why do you feel that elves need to be able to do these things?

Why do elves wear boots?

Quote from: Wolfsong on September 12, 2010, 01:51:46 PM
Why do elves wear boots?

Several years back, those boots save the elf in question from a pack of raiding mantis.

Bad joke aside.
Elven taboos arn't irrational to the elf.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 12, 2010, 01:46:54 PM
Kiara, the problem is you keep on trying to apply logic to thwart elven taboos which are clearly irrational.  Furthermore, the fact that you're attempting to thwart this aspect of elven culture is somewhat tantamount to trying to play a smart half-giant or a Tuluki noble who sleeps with commoners.

I'm still perplexed as to why this is such an issue anyway.  Why do you feel that elves need to be able to do these things?

I've asked on more than one occasion for someone to produce documentation that specifically points how it is not in-character for an elf to ride on a silt skimmer. Perhaps you can for me?

Why do I feel elves need to do be allowed to ride silt skimmers? Because it could be fun for the players involved.

Search funtion for the win!

Most direct response from Nyr: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html)

The same thread as this: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35327.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35327.0.html)

This thread lite!: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,26199.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,26199.0.html)

Thread about City Elves in Red Storm: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36989.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36989.0.html)

There is no such specific documentation yet.  However, the taboo against transport by any means besides one's own power seems like it would plainly apply to skimmers.  The fact that there is no alternate means to traverse the silt sea is irrelevant.  Logical/scientific details distinguishing skimmers from other forms of shameful transport are irrelevant.  

IRL, when there is a question whether a particular act is taboo or not, cultures almost universally decide that it is, just to be safe if nothing else.

Elves are often willing to die rather than shame themselves or their tribe.  Seems like missing out on a little adventure/treasure/whatever from a silt sea expedition wouldn't be even close enough of a reason to risk crossing the boundaries of taboo.

QuoteWhy do I feel elves need to do be allowed to ride silt skimmers? Because it could be fun for the players involved.

And it's no fun without elves?


Anyway, looks like Riya dug up a post where a Highlord has spoken, and the issue is settled for now, eh?

I think elves could ride a skimmer.

If they refuse mounts out of a sense of pride, then fair enough.  They can run on land.

They can't travel the silt sea without a skimmer, so they could use one.  That shouldn't be shameful, it's allowing them to do something they otherwise simply could not do.  That isnt the same as being lazy and riding an inix.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html

Quote from: nyrThis was specifically brought up at the staff meeting, and we discussed it for a bit.

Answer:  no.

Quote from: nyrThis was specifically brought up at the staff meeting.

Answer:  no.

Quote from: nyrWe discussed it for a bit.

Answer:  no.

Quote from: nyr
Answer:  no.

Quote from: nyrStaff meeting.

Answer:  no.

Quote from: nyrThis was specifically brought up.

Answer:  no.

What a logical, cogent response.

Quote from: Kiara on September 12, 2010, 02:54:25 PM
What a logical, cogent response.

That's why they pay me the big bucks....

But yeah, Staff seem to have already made a decision on this.

And as much as I'd like to see elves riding skimmers, it ain't likely to happen.

When staff say, "Mutant is not an acceptable sdesc keyword anymore.", people stop making characters with "mutant" in their sdesc.

When staff say, "Don't summon magickal beasties to practice skills on.", people stop summoning magickal beasties to practice on.

And when the staff say, "Elves aren't allowed to ride skimmers.", people stop making elves with the intention of ever riding a skimmer with 'em.

Simple. :)

::Edited to add::

Besides, I've never seen many people clamor to hop on a skimmer with an elf anyhow.... I don't think the documentation that everybody's followed so far staying the same will change much.

Update: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39620.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39620.0.html)

Nyr says the answer is still no.

I think some of you who are quoting the staff need to re-evaluate the Original Post in this thread:

Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2010, 07:42:10 PM
Hey guys,

I personally think Staff's decision to have elves look onto Wagons as they look onto Mounts is kind of ridiculous.

I know it's beating a dead horse in a way, but I wonder what you as players think about this now, several months after the decision was made. Both as players of elves, and those that play with elves.

We (who are paying attention to things) already know what the goddamn staff opinion is on the matter.  The argument isn't about what the staff opinion is or isn't--it's about whether there could possibly be a better policy.

This discussion makes me sad.

And lame, irritating rules are still lame and irritating.

Personally, I look at it like this:

Would an elf find it shameful to travel on a Skimmer? No, probably not.

Would an elf be considered batshit insane by his peers if he traveled on a Skimmer? Probably, but that's a given for anyone who's on a Skimmer.

Quote from: Synthesis on September 12, 2010, 04:24:04 PM
I think some of you who are quoting the staff need to re-evaluate the Original Post in this thread:

Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2010, 07:42:10 PM
Hey guys,

I personally think Staff's decision to have elves look onto Wagons as they look onto Mounts is kind of ridiculous.

I know it's beating a dead horse in a way, but I wonder what you as players think about this now, several months after the decision was made. Both as players of elves, and those that play with elves.

We (who are paying attention to things) already know what the goddamn staff opinion is on the matter.  The argument isn't about what the staff opinion is or isn't--it's about whether there could possibly be a better policy.

Oh.... I really should stop posting in threads without reading the op.

x-X

Would an elf wear really big shoes and go out on the silt sea?

Jingo's take:

I think that if city-elves were to get a bonus on outdoor roads, I could be happy and elves would have a better time running next to wagons.

It's kinda late and I don't feel like digging through and quoting something at the moment.

Skimmers DO exist. NPC's/PC's DO use them. Therefore, it is not out of the realm of proper role play.

If you look at the docs...

"All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery."

What in the hell is stopping a City Elf from a) leaving the city b) traveling the silt sea (aside from the cliche survival argument).?

And why would I not choose another race aside from an elf to do my silt surfing? Because Elven role play rocks!

With the OP asking, "Should this be changed?"  To that, I simply say, "I don't think so.  It's fine how it is."

Eesh.... Some of you guys make it sound like c-elves are just thiefy, haggly, screw-you-out-of-a-deal types.

Which they are, but they have personalities too....

There are fun-loving elves, there are thrill-seeking elves, there are spice-addicted elves, there are alcoholic elves....

They're not just a bunch overly-cautious, crazily-cultural, mega-proud people.... I mean, sure, they're proud about their stupid legs and how much smarter than everything else they are.... But that's about it.

Give 'em skimmers.

I don't think an elf would look wistfully out on the Silt Sea, wishing they could travel it--no more than they'd look up at the sky, sigh, and say "Golly, if I couldn't fly through the air, I'd just kill myself."  If more elves did that, though, Zalanthas would be a better place.

So there's no such thing as an adventurous elf who gets giddy, and would pursue the thought of finding enough treasure to buy Allanak in obscure, dangerous, far-away places?

Do you have a point associating yours to mine?  I don't get what an elven suicide joke has to do with elves having personality.   ;D

Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2010, 09:14:37 AM
I don't get what an elven suicide joke has to do with elves having personality.   ;D

Me neither.

<_<

I just have my srs-bizness-give-elves-skimmers-plz-kthxbai hat on right now, missed the joke entirely. x-X

I think a better policy would be:

To have Elves that use Mounts to be considered certifiable, not only by elves but by those of other races.

To have Elves that ride in Wagons be considered really queer (See: Odd) by other elves, but looked on with a sigh of relief by other races. ("Oh, he's not -that- kind of elf that looks back on traditions of his forefathers that don't even apply to him anymore...Great! We don't need to stop to rest every twenty seconds.")

To have Elves that ride in Skimmers to be either grizzled badass pirates or considered 100% crazy. I mean, come on. Why would they want to ride on a Skimmer unless they had a knife beteween their teeth, an eyepatch, and possibly a peg-leg?

Instead of:

We as Staff will nom nom nom you if you do anything like this! You -can't- do any of these things...Well...Because...Your race was born thinking that way! Hah! Take that! But...They have none of the -benefits- really...Of...Well. They're proud, but stupid, let's leave it at that!

Sure, Staff policy is no. I just think its a tad ham-fisted and old skewl, and could be revised to accommodate a greater level of RP in Armageddon, rather than limiting it for no other real reason other than "That's the way it's always been, and will always be". Elves have been broken for a while, as have Pickpockets. We may never fix them, as Arm 2.0 looms on the horizon (Before I grow gray hairs). But heck, isn't it just easy to say "Nah, let's not bother" rather than "Hmm, maybe you're right. Elves really -are- broken as a race, and maybe we can do something to fix them."

Seriously, there's an elf with a peg-leg somewhere. Where does that all fit in?

I think nine out of ten times staff comes to a decision and everyone (me) says, "Ok. good enough." But then we hit that other one time, and I really wish that we had a forum to dialogue with staff. Maybe the decision wouldn't change, but at least we'd (I'd) feel heard. This is that time in ten.

I'm not even certain that I think the staff policy is wrong. I kind of agree that if you want to ride in wagons and silt skimmers you can play anything but an elf. But I also think that this ties in to the question of city elf / delf and the way that city elfing becomes more limited. (Again, I'm not sure even that's a problem.) I just think it would be nice to have a discussion. You know the staff and the players would talk about how they see the whole c-elf/delf question, and see if anyone could be persuaded to give some ground. Maybe end up in a place that isn't right where we're standing, or not.

We've had discussion, perhaps unto the point of the death of this horse.  Staff presents their side, players present their side, and in this case, staff has already stated things (or at least I have) and players have already stated things.  It's not a big deal, but it is being blown up into a big deal.  Repeating that you don't like a staff policy or explanation of documentation doesn't mean staff must change opinion on it or compromise in any way.  The precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

That's not to say I don't think that some things shouldn't be discussed, such as new policies that need player input, or new documentation to cover recent IC policies or something like that.  Rehashing old documentation shouldn't need staff to chime in and negotiate on the behalf of it; it stands on its own and was approved at some point by the overlords (producers) of the game.  If you want to contest old documentation or new interpretations of it, come up with compelling and documented arguments for why you want to do so.  If the answer is still no (which it is in this case), then that's cool, you presented your side of it and you don't like the outcome--but such is the nature of discussion, right?  There was a discussion, no?  Sure, we see the playerbase points in (almost) every presented issue; you take issue with something and you want us to fix it.  Many times, we do compromise.

This isn't a case in which I see us compromising and in a similar (related) issue I stated as much.

Quote from: Nyr on April 20, 2010, 09:18:35 AM
I believe this and the city elf vs desert elf thing has been brought up more than a few times over the past five years in various threads.  I don't foresee us changing position on this.  City elves (now) actually have a much better chance of attaining the skills that a desert elf ranger might have (storm code changes + direction sense), but they will not become full-fledged rangers.

Another way of looking at this is that when you pick a city elf, you are picking an entire culture of elf that is raised in urban environments.  Per documentation and established tradition, the differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their different lifestyles--there is only one elven race.  These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

Conversely, city elves (by documentation) are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and usually possess lighter skin tones and less musculature (but not necessarily less strength) than their desert elf kin.  They may be codedly prevented from becoming a ranger, but this coded prevention is based on the rule, not exceptions to the rule (which special applications can be used for, though I do not guarantee your success at this).  If we made all things possible in the game without any automatic coded restrictions or oversight on new applications, we could go ahead and scrap all of the documentation.  (This is hyperbolic; I only write it to make a point.)  If you have a strong case for a city elf ranger, I would suggest a special application, keeping in mind that we usually will hold to the rule rather than creating exceptions to the rule.  (You'd better have a good app, in other words.  If you do get rejected, it isn't because you suck as a player and need to quit Armageddon.  The standards are very high for playing a role so far out of the world's cultural norm.)

This is an example of a race in the game that has limits on it based on documentation reinforcement.  There are other limitations as well.  Psionicists can only be human.  Mul magick users are rare to the point of being unheard of (therefore codedly rejected, and require special applications now).  Were any player to complain that their city elves could not be psionicists, we would point to the documentation on psionicists.  Were any player to complain that they could not make a mul magicker even though they had 7 karma, we would point to the documentation on muls (and suggest they special app, which would be reviewed to high standards as well).  We also have limits that are not coded, but still enforced both culturally and through regular policing in-game.  I could go on about this, but I do not think it relates to city elves and desert elves and their coded limitations (brought about to enforce cultural documentation).

For those of you that zone out when you see more than 2 paragraphs of writing, a brief summary:
tl,dr -- nyr hates city elves and linked liek 2 million threads on it
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html (old)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31564.0.html (newer)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37028.0.html (far more possible with direction sense, now)

This is why we're not changing city-elves to have ranger skills.  This is also why we're not changing elven roleplay documentation to account for using wagons or skimmers.  You may dislike it and disagree, but if you play an elf outside of the established documentation without a special application for it, your PC will be stored--and unlike your silt skimmer, your karma will be docked. 

"Oh noes, my desert-elf can't be an assassin!  How can you do this?"
We limit by code the things that the cultural bent for desert elves would allow for; should you have an exception for this, apply via special application (noting that it would not be accepted 99% of the time).
"Oh noes, my city-elf can't be a ranger!  How can you do this?"
See above, apply to city-elves; should you have an exception for this, apply via special application (noting that it would not be accepted 99% of the time).
"Oh noes, my elf can't travel through the air!  How else would he travel through the air if not by magick?"
He or she wouldn't.  He or she would either do so by direct magick or not at all (and by direct magick, I mean that they would not use a flying mount--magickal or otherwise--or a flying wagon--magickal or otherwise.  They probably would not rely on someone else's magick for this, either).
"Oh noes, my elf can't travel the silt!  How else would he or she travel the silt if not by a skimmer?"
He or she wouldn't travel the silt unless he or she could do so without depending on something else for transportation apart from his or her own two feet.  Sure--try and run fast enough to stay atop the silt.  It is not as though any elves have to go out on the silt to survive, no more than they have to use wagons to survive or mounts to survive.  Til that becomes a reality, I don't see a good reason to change established documentation.

tl;dr version:

nyr hates elves omg i bet he just admins delf clans to liek kill elfs and shits

Why not code up some echos when an elf mounts an animal or rides on a wagon.

Something internal that forces you to feel shame every 5 minutes or so when standing in a wagon room OR riding a mount.

Mounts/mounting them, sure. Wagons would be tricky as by arm 1 code any enterable object functions similarly.

if pc_race == elf && ROOM == 24242
echo
feel shame


:) :)

Well I wouldn't want to make an elf feel shame for being in a tent.

sorry, i don't know wagon rooms #'s

i'm not an immortal.  :(

Now I want to make an elf who steals that tent.

Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2010, 08:27:45 PM
Mounts/mounting them, sure. Wagons would be tricky as by arm 1 code any enterable object functions similarly.

Simple

There is a specific echo every time a wagon moves. And as far as I'm aware, it is audible anywhere inside the wagon. Something about wagon rumbling and shaking? Just code it so an elf would feel discomfort whenever he gets that echo. This way, he's absolutely fine with entering wagons, as long as anything that makes it move is either dead or tied or both

Hey, Maybe make it like a land lover on a boat in the ocean for the first time and hitting bad water. Where the elf would feel sick, physically, perhaps the effect persist for a longer duration after they get off the wagon, and they would have to build a tolerance like alcohol.

for the record. I'm against any coded effects regarding wagons, skimmers, or mounts and elves. If an elf does somehow stoop to this (which is unthinkable) then the consequence should happen via interaction, not code.

Next we're going to encode a focus to dwarves?

I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

The argument is mainly that they aren't really as much fun to play as other races.  I'm all for rock/paper/scissors and balancing and all that, but I really don't think "fun" and "enjoyment" should be part of that equation.

Of course, pinning down what "fun" is and how to measure it is problematic, but as I've mentioned previously, the most reasonable way to look at it is in terms of what players choose to play.  For every city-elf you see around, there are easily dozens of humans and dwarves, and I think that says vastly more about the enjoyment people feel while playing those roles than it does coded prowess.

Now, if the Staff are fine with having this shit-sandwich of a race sitting there, taunting people, I guess I can accept that it's merely there as an Armageddon Hard-Mode.  I think city-elves have vastly more to contribute to the game than that, though.  They have a unique culture and mentality that is available at 0 karma...but it's a culture and mentality that few people want to explore, because it's a chore to play the race.  And it's really a damn shame that so many people can't see that by changing a few simple little things, so many more people would enjoy playing this race so much more.

Quote from: Synthesis on September 13, 2010, 11:24:18 PM
I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

That's a bit of cherry picking there, though artfully done.  I had to reread my post to see if I'd written that, and I did, though not to the ends you are asserting. I'll put that paraphrase in context:

Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2010, 08:07:38 PMThe precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

The point was that elves are not unplayable, thereby making a significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon...a bit shocking to behold.  If they were unplayable, such a suggestion would be appropriate.  I think this is important here because (to paraphrase Marauder Moe, who put this well):

Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 07, 2010, 01:18:42 PM
My take is that the docs tend to over-state racial and cultural traits because people tend to under-play them. 

It's sort of like speed limits.  If the highway safety board says the safe average speed for a particular road is 65, they post the speed limit at 55 knowing that almost everyone drives 5-10 mph over.  If the posted limit was 65, people would drive at 70-75.

Likewise, the docs say that the dwarven focus is all-encompassing, and people tend to play it in the range of very-significant to somewhat-important.  If the posted level of focus obsession was very-significant, people would probably only play it as somewhat-important to kind-of-interested-in.

Just food for thought, I honestly don't have much more on this tonight.

Quote from: Dar on September 13, 2010, 11:08:28 PM
for the record. I'm against any coded effects regarding wagons, skimmers, or mounts and elves. If an elf does somehow stoop to this (which is unthinkable) then the consequence should happen via interaction, not code.

Next we're going to encode a focus to dwarves?

Dwarven focus -is- coded ?

I'm for reinforcement of game world with game world code.  People should be able to play the game without having to read all the docs to know how things work.

Eh..fine, alright.

Elves can swim.

Quote from: Nyr on September 14, 2010, 12:06:14 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on September 13, 2010, 11:24:18 PM
I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

That's a bit of cherry picking there, though artfully done.  I had to reread my post to see if I'd written that, and I did, though not to the ends you are asserting. I'll put that paraphrase in context:

Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2010, 08:07:38 PMThe precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

The point was that elves are not unplayable, thereby making a significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon...a bit shocking to behold.  If they were unplayable, such a suggestion would be appropriate.  I think this is important here because (to paraphrase Marauder Moe, who put this well):

Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 07, 2010, 01:18:42 PM
My take is that the docs tend to over-state racial and cultural traits because people tend to under-play them. 

It's sort of like speed limits.  If the highway safety board says the safe average speed for a particular road is 65, they post the speed limit at 55 knowing that almost everyone drives 5-10 mph over.  If the posted limit was 65, people would drive at 70-75.

Likewise, the docs say that the dwarven focus is all-encompassing, and people tend to play it in the range of very-significant to somewhat-important.  If the posted level of focus obsession was very-significant, people would probably only play it as somewhat-important to kind-of-interested-in.

Just food for thought, I honestly don't have much more on this tonight.

Attempting to justify your use of a straw man by reasserting a slippery slope?  Really?

*ahem*  Allow me to be constructive:  fine-tuning city-elves would not require a "significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon."  If anything, I'd say that the lame attempts to justify the docs by some in this thread have done more damage to the perception of what the elven psyche is than anything else (i.e. the several non-documented behaviors attributed to elves).

At any rate, is "doesn't ride mounts" really a critical basic element of the city-elven roleplay experience?  Suppose we radically altered the docs to allow that city-elves no longer are prideful about the running ability they've lost (but remain prideful about everything else).  Without reference to the obvious fact that this would immediately open up new role opportunities for city-elf PCs, would it substantially and dramatically change the city-elven persona?  I submit that it would not.  They would remain prideful, arrogant, sly, thiefly, tribal, distrustful, loyal.  All you've done is slaughter a sacred cow that has dropped a metric ton of shit on an otherwise great race.  The change would be relatively simple:  instead of being uniquely prideful about their ability to run (desert-elves would retain this), city-elves would be uniquely prideful about their ability to ingratiate themselves into an ecological niche (the city) where desert-elves would be incompetent.  While a desert-elf might consider a city-elf riding a mount to be a sign of weakness, a city-elf would consider a desert-elf continuing to run on his own to be backwards and barbaric.  Both elves are prideful, both elves are thiefly, both elves are tribal, both elves are distrustful, both elves are loyal to their friends--they are still elves.  But one rides a mount and tolerates human and dwarven civilization like a parasite tolerates its host--as a sign of their advancement in thievery and deception, while the other rejects all trappings of human civilization--as a sign of their independence.

You see how easy it is to tweak the elven psyche to allow for such a thing?  In terms of the roles now available to city-elves, this would be a dramatic change.  In terms of re-writing documentation and ret-conning certain elements of the game, it would be a dramatic change.  But it would not be a dramatic change to the elven psyche itself.  Everything fundamental to this psyche remains, but it finds different expression between a city-elf and a desert-elf.  I think the fundamental mistake that's been made over the years is confounding a particular practice (not riding mounts) with underlying psychology, and that's what's generated so much malcontentedness and cognitive dissonance over the years.  It makes very little sense for city-elves, who live in an entirely different set of circumstances, to maintain a practice that is merely cultural and literally hamstrings them.  Cultures can and do change, and it would be a trivial thing to rewrite the docs to reflect this for city-elves.  This is completely and utterly separate from psychological change.  Everything fundamental to elven psychology would remain, but find different and more appropriate cultural expression for the city-elf's set of circumstances.

So what then, exactly, would be the downside to letting city-elves ride mounts, ride in wagons, and ride in skimmers?  Once you clear out the piss-poor argument that it would somehow change their psyche, the only thing I can think of is that now city-elves would be such a playable race that people might actually start playing them, and this would thin out the playerbase in non-elf-hiring clans.  This is a valid concern, I suppose, but you could equally well make the argument that non-elf-hiring clans have simply had it too good for too many years.

Cue rabble.

I agree with Synth.  I love the analogy of c-elf = parasite that has mastered the art of adaption.  If the PC c-elf population suddenly grew to approximate the NPC population... that would be awesome.

*rabble rabble*

That's a more palatable argument; I appreciate a plan and background to a proposal.  Thanks!

Quote from: Synthesis on September 14, 2010, 05:52:08 PM

Quote from: Nyr on September 14, 2010, 12:06:14 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on September 13, 2010, 11:24:18 PM
I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

That's a bit of cherry picking there, though artfully done.  I had to reread my post to see if I'd written that, and I did, though not to the ends you are asserting. I'll put that paraphrase in context:

Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2010, 08:07:38 PMThe precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

The point was that elves are not unplayable, thereby making a significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon...a bit shocking to behold.  If they were unplayable, such a suggestion would be appropriate.  I think this is important here because (to paraphrase Marauder Moe, who put this well):

Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 07, 2010, 01:18:42 PM
My take is that the docs tend to over-state racial and cultural traits because people tend to under-play them. 

It's sort of like speed limits.  If the highway safety board says the safe average speed for a particular road is 65, they post the speed limit at 55 knowing that almost everyone drives 5-10 mph over.  If the posted limit was 65, people would drive at 70-75.

Likewise, the docs say that the dwarven focus is all-encompassing, and people tend to play it in the range of very-significant to somewhat-important.  If the posted level of focus obsession was very-significant, people would probably only play it as somewhat-important to kind-of-interested-in.

Just food for thought, I honestly don't have much more on this tonight.

Attempting to justify your use of a straw man by reasserting a slippery slope?  Really?

*ahem*  Allow me to be constructive:  fine-tuning city-elves would not require a "significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon."  If anything, I'd say that the lame attempts to justify the docs by some in this thread have done more damage to the perception of what the elven psyche is than anything else (i.e. the several non-documented behaviors attributed to elves).

At any rate, is "doesn't ride mounts" really a critical basic element of the city-elven roleplay experience?  Suppose we radically altered the docs to allow that city-elves no longer are prideful about the running ability they've lost (but remain prideful about everything else).  Without reference to the obvious fact that this would immediately open up new role opportunities for city-elf PCs, would it substantially and dramatically change the city-elven persona?  I submit that it would not.  They would remain prideful, arrogant, sly, thiefly, tribal, distrustful, loyal.  All you've done is slaughter a sacred cow that has dropped a metric ton of shit on an otherwise great race.  The change would be relatively simple:  instead of being uniquely prideful about their ability to run (desert-elves would retain this), city-elves would be uniquely prideful about their ability to ingratiate themselves into an ecological niche (the city) where desert-elves would be incompetent.  While a desert-elf might consider a city-elf riding a mount to be a sign of weakness, a city-elf would consider a desert-elf continuing to run on his own to be backwards and barbaric.  Both elves are prideful, both elves are thiefly, both elves are tribal, both elves are distrustful, both elves are loyal to their friends--they are still elves.  But one rides a mount and tolerates human and dwarven civilization like a parasite tolerates its host--as a sign of their advancement in thievery and deception, while the other rejects all trappings of human civilization--as a sign of their independence.

You see how easy it is to tweak the elven psyche to allow for such a thing?  In terms of the roles now available to city-elves, this would be a dramatic change.  In terms of re-writing documentation and ret-conning certain elements of the game, it would be a dramatic change.  But it would not be a dramatic change to the elven psyche itself.  Everything fundamental to this psyche remains, but it finds different expression between a city-elf and a desert-elf.  I think the fundamental mistake that's been made over the years is confounding a particular practice (not riding mounts) with underlying psychology, and that's what's generated so much malcontentedness and cognitive dissonance over the years.  It makes very little sense for city-elves, who live in an entirely different set of circumstances, to maintain a practice that is merely cultural and literally hamstrings them.  Cultures can and do change, and it would be a trivial thing to rewrite the docs to reflect this for city-elves.  This is completely and utterly separate from psychological change.  Everything fundamental to elven psychology would remain, but find different and more appropriate cultural expression for the city-elf's set of circumstances.

So what then, exactly, would be the downside to letting city-elves ride mounts, ride in wagons, and ride in skimmers?  Once you clear out the piss-poor argument that it would somehow change their psyche, the only thing I can think of is that now city-elves would be such a playable race that people might actually start playing them, and this would thin out the playerbase in non-elf-hiring clans.  This is a valid concern, I suppose, but you could equally well make the argument that non-elf-hiring clans have simply had it too good for too many years.

Cue rabble.

Thank you, Synthesis. You've articulated what i've been trying to, but couldn't, for some time. Thank you.

Quote from: lordcooper on September 10, 2010, 07:56:11 PM

It DOES make sense though.

Too proud for anything but their own two feet.

No it doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that no catholics use condoms, that no muslims eat pork and that no baptists will touch a drop of alcohol.  When in reality about 10% of muslims eat pork, about 50% of catholics use condoms and about 90% of baptists drink.  Elves were never meant to be so proud that they all had extremist views on transportation.

Besides the hit to playability, it shows that the the people who are driving the bus don't understand elves, or understand that populations consist both of extremists and moderates.

Quote from: jriley on September 14, 2010, 09:23:18 PM

Quote from: lordcooper on September 10, 2010, 07:56:11 PM

It DOES make sense though.

Too proud for anything but their own two feet.

No it doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that no catholics use condoms, that no muslims eat pork and that no baptists will touch a drop of alcohol.  When in reality about 10% of muslims eat pork, about 50% of catholics use condoms and about 90% of baptists drink.  Elves were never meant to be so proud that they all had extremist views on transportation.

Besides the hit to playability, it shows that the the people who are driving the bus don't understand elves, or understand that populations consist both of extremists and moderates.

That's not what it shows to me. It shows me that, just about as much as requiring all dwarves to have a focus, with no exceptions even in a case of mental retardation or psychosis, means that people driving the bus don't understand dwarves, or that populations could consist of both moderates and hardwired exceptions.

Edited to add this paragraph: What it DOES show me, is that the staff understands that letting city elves ride, would actually give them an advantage over desert elves, IN the desert. Because desert elves DO lose stamina points when they run..and a city elf riding a mount would lose none at all. There are situations in which this could have a -very- significant advantage, not only for stamina points, but speed. I totally get that they don't have ride. And I totally get that they incur a penalty running outside cities. Wagons...I don't get it as much, but I sorta get it.

HOWEVER, I do agree that city elves need some kind of playability coded lovin. When the c-elf/d-elf was implemented, there existed no such thing as silt skimmer. So there was no reason to give d-elves a reason to take interest in the silt sea. They weren't "missing out" on anything, because there was nothing for them to miss out on. Now though, there are silt skimmers. Silt skimmers are not led by animals..there's no mounts involved, or even any wheels for that matter. Perhaps it might make sense for a city elf to not want to be passenger on a silt skimmer - the whole "I run, therefore I am in control of my own movement" thing. But perhaps it might also make sense for a city elf to pilot one. And maybe - it might make sense for a city elf, particularly one that gens in Red Storm, to be capable of mastering the skill. And maybe even come with a bump higher than novice right out of the hall of kings, IF he starts out in Red Storm. That could easily accomplish a few things all at once..

1. It'd give city elves some coded playability lovin.
2. It'd give Red Storm another reason for people to create characters there.
3. It'd give more people a built-in reason to play around with silt skimmers, and hire/scam expedition crews...
4. Could maybe even develop into competing city-elf raider tribes/crews..

Quote from: Lizzie on September 14, 2010, 09:46:22 PM

Quote from: jriley on September 14, 2010, 09:23:18 PM

Quote from: lordcooper on September 10, 2010, 07:56:11 PM

It DOES make sense though.

Too proud for anything but their own two feet.

No it doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that no catholics use condoms, that no muslims eat pork and that no baptists will touch a drop of alcohol.  When in reality about 10% of muslims eat pork, about 50% of catholics use condoms and about 90% of baptists drink.  Elves were never meant to be so proud that they all had extremist views on transportation.

Besides the hit to playability, it shows that the the people who are driving the bus don't understand elves, or understand that populations consist both of extremists and moderates.

That's not what it shows to me. It shows me that, just about as much as requiring all dwarves to have a focus, with no exceptions even in a case of mental retardation or psychosis, means that people driving the bus don't understand dwarves, or that populations could consist of both moderates and hardwired exceptions.

Edited to add this paragraph: What it DOES show me, is that the staff understands that letting city elves ride, would actually give them an advantage over desert elves, IN the desert. Because desert elves DO lose stamina points when they run..and a city elf riding a mount would lose none at all. There are situations in which this could have a -very- significant advantage, not only for stamina points, but speed. I totally get that they don't have ride. And I totally get that they incur a penalty running outside cities. Wagons...I don't get it as much, but I sorta get it.

HOWEVER, I do agree that city elves need some kind of playability coded lovin. When the c-elf/d-elf was implemented, there existed no such thing as silt skimmer. So there was no reason to give d-elves a reason to take interest in the silt sea. They weren't "missing out" on anything, because there was nothing for them to miss out on. Now though, there are silt skimmers. Silt skimmers are not led by animals..there's no mounts involved, or even any wheels for that matter. Perhaps it might make sense for a city elf to not want to be passenger on a silt skimmer - the whole "I run, therefore I am in control of my own movement" thing. But perhaps it might also make sense for a city elf to pilot one. And maybe - it might make sense for a city elf, particularly one that gens in Red Storm, to be capable of mastering the skill. And maybe even come with a bump higher than novice right out of the hall of kings, IF he starts out in Red Storm. That could easily accomplish a few things all at once..

1. It'd give city elves some coded playability lovin.
2. It'd give Red Storm another reason for people to create characters there.
3. It'd give more people a built-in reason to play around with silt skimmers, and hire/scam expedition crews...
4. Could maybe even develop into competing city-elf raider tribes/crews..

Okay, you have no idea what you're talking about if you think riding a mount (by anyone) has "significant advantages" over desert-elf abilities.

The advantages you get are the ability to use charge and trample, and some extra stamina.  But you know what? Desert-elf rangers are still the Master Rangers of the Universe.  The ability to move quickly is exceptionally important when it comes to avoiding gigantic aggro mobs, and having a mount nullifies just about any attempt you might make at being stealthy.  Just about the only thing scarier than a maxed desert-elf ranger in the wastes is a maxed sorcerer.  Even then, the functional difference in terms of "how bad that motherfucker could pwn you" is pretty slim.  Just ask X-D.

And even if city-elves could ride, it does not mean they'd have access to the ranger option.  They are city-based, and the ranger skillset is too extensively desert-based to be reasonable, even for city-elves who ride.

First, I do not think elves of any kind should be allowed to ride animals, ever, for any reason, I think the current docs etc on that subject are fine.

But I also think that allowing celves on wagons and skimmers would not be a game breaker...currently.

Wagons are pretty rare and controled by houses that, for the most part don't even hire elves and I doubt that would change just because they don't mind wagons. Wagons are also more of a city object, maybe playing into the celf mindset of safety, who knows.

Skimmers, well, I still think any elf who even wanted to get on a skimmer would need to be insane. Still, if they were allowed on them, due to the extreme limited usefulness, I do not see it as a game breaker either.

Other then slippery slope arguements, which I actually do agree with. Because if you do give an inch they will want a mile.

Some really good stuff in this thread. I'm all for keeping the rule that "elves don't ride mounts" but making it acceptable for them to ride in wagons, silt skimmers and the like. I'd rather, they may not like it, not all of them would, but it's not considered poor rp for an elf to ride in/on a vehicle. (except for d-elves who should not ride anything at all, IMO) It would sure make city-elf Bynners alot more playable and open up a few doors in terms of playability but keeping a particular aspect of the race around.

I'm throwing my hat in with Synthesis on this one for reasons above discussed.

Truth be said. I always assumed that celven inability to ride wagons/beasts is an artificial method of enforcing them to remain in the same area. What is one 'real' reason for Delves to prefer to live within their own territory? Because if a Delf goes on an exploration journey, he might be around for rl weeks and weeks, but his tribe would never interact with him.

Same goes for Celves. If the celves are trapped in the same city, they will "eventually" learn to work together, and form some type of community. Either a tribe or a loose organization. Instead of always wondering and being spread apart, depending on themselves and the wild, then the city and it's riches. There is a reason why Celves cant be rangers, they oughta be able to survive off the cities alone. And if you can ride, you're this much less dependent on cities.

Quote from: Dar on September 15, 2010, 04:07:01 AM
And if you can ride, you're this much less dependent on cities.

True, but it makes them completely useless to any of the few clans out there that even hire elves.... With perhaps the exception of the c-elf tribes out there.

But I mean, come on, why even let elves join the Byn if they have no hope to get anywhere ever as long as they wear that aba?

And this whole, "Blahblahblah, we don't want c-elves roving the deserts because they'll be more badass than d-elves or what-the-fuck-ever."

That's like saying -any- race that can ride mounts is anywhere near on-par with d-elves.

Which we all know simply ain't so.

You know, I think more large, lawless areas within cities would help c-elves thrive. Mix that with solid coded tribes and they're set.

The soldiers of both cities are still far too effective and wide-roaming. The tricky part is that the current set up stops people twatting around and killing linkdead PCs left right and center (most of the time).

I'm honestly under the impression that -anyone- (except maybe a focused dwarf) needs to be insane to ride a silt skimmer, this isn't unique to elves.

City-elves wouldn't wantonly roam the deserts even if they could ride, due to their elven mentality.

The city is their "home turf," and as such, they wouldn't stray far from it unless a) they were with their buddies or b) the need was exceptional.  I can imagine an elf riding out to say, harvest a scrab, after which he hurriedly makes his way back to the safety of the city.  He certainly wouldn't kill a half-dozen scrabs, camp overnight in the Salt Flats, ride to Tuluk to sell the scrab shells, pick up some spice in Luir's on his way back down, take a detour through the Red Desert to collect raptor bits, then return to Allanak after a week had passed.

If I had my way, they would still be unable to select the ranger option in character generation to reflect the fact that despite using mounts for short forays into the desert, they do not spend enough time there to be masters of that particular environment.  There are several "outdoorsy" subclasses that can adequately account for the passing familiarity that a city-elf might acquire.

As far as limiting it to wagons and skimmers:  I could accept that skimmers are a different class of transportation, since there is no other mundane way of traversing silt.  However, adding the ability to ride in skimmers wouldn't have much of a practical effect on the game.  Mounts and wagons are too similar to separate in a way that would be philosophically pleasing.

Quote from: Synthesis on September 15, 2010, 07:54:50 AMThe city is their "home turf," and as such, they wouldn't stray far from it unless a) they were with their buddies or b) the need was exceptional.  I can imagine an elf riding out to say, harvest a scrab, after which he hurriedly makes his way back to the safety of the city.  He certainly wouldn't kill a half-dozen scrabs, camp overnight in the Salt Flats, ride to Tuluk to sell the scrab shells, pick up some spice in Luir's on his way back down, take a detour through the Red Desert to collect raptor bits, then return to Allanak after a week had passed.

This is subjective, though fine for a specific tribe/individual mindset. A city elf might well take the tour your describe because they are proud of being able to do so. An elf with no legs would be proud of his ability to crawl around on his hands.

Personally, I find it easier to get into the elven mindset when there isn't a hard-coded advantage. It is an irrational level of pride, and that's what makes them elves.

All of this is aside from the perceived coded difficulties of playing city elves, which have been done to death and don't need repeating.

Edit: In order to be a hypocrite, I think I'll start another thread about city elves and coded abilities.

Quote from: Nyr on September 14, 2010, 06:50:41 PM
That's a more palatable argument; I appreciate a plan and background to a proposal.  Thanks!

To elaborate:  I mean that I'd rather anyone proposing anything have a good plan to go along with it (though the snarky tone isn't needed and will weigh against any valid points you may have).  I applaud anyone putting their ideas out there and also backing them up by fleshing them out.

Staff have had the same arguments last year before we actually said that's our policy.  In the end, the majority of staff was in favor of not retrofitting elven roleplay documents, with two producers weighing in on the side of no retrofitting.  It's not like we just threw this out there without thinking about it.  It was a close enough argument, and good points were raised, but it was shot down.  Such is life.

Synthesis, good work putting together the proposal and defending it... but I'd be happier if things stayed the same myself.  I wouldn't be opposed to a change, but I think the way things are now is good.  I think city elves are quite playable as is.  I've found it strange when city elves get jobs that require outdoor time... and I found it strange that their bosses hired them in the first place... and I found it strange when the bosses still required outdoor time of someone that plainly wasn't going to be all that great to have along on long trips.  I think that sort of city elf shouldn't be more possible.  It should be strange.

How many clans hire elves?

A handful. There's employment for elves in more than one clan both north and south, let's say.

Quote from: Talia on September 15, 2010, 12:21:56 PM
A handful. There's employment for elves in more than one clan both north and south, let's say.

Can you name some? I'm honestly drawing a blank. The HK/Akai/Sandsas don't count, as they push characters towards shady lives. What about something more public?

I know the Byn does (sometimes) but city elves are limited in this aspect.

Clans that city elves can join: 

T'zai Byn, Akai Sjir (though they are an elven group), Jaxa Pah (though they are an elven group), Kurac.

Quote from: Kiara on September 15, 2010, 12:55:09 PM
Can you name some? I'm honestly drawing a blank. The HK/Akai/Sandsas don't count, as they push characters towards shady lives. What about something more public?

I know the Byn does (sometimes) but city elves are limited in this aspect.

Haruch Kemad are no longer a playable clan. Akai Sjirr can take any of the city-based guilds and keep them well-occupied, as can the Jaxa Pah. Yes, the Byn hires elves, and of course that is outdoorsy. There are other clans that hire elves as well for outdoorsy-type roles, though this may fluctuate based on the PCs/staff of the time. Elves can also, of course, be bards of Poets' Circle, Rusarla Circle specifically.

The basic options for city elves are the same as the basic options for any PC: City life or outdoors life. And as I said, there are at least a couple of options for elves in both Allanak and Tuluk.

Edited: WHAT NYR SAID TOO. (Dang him for sniping me again!)

Kurac! I knew there was a big one I was forgetting.

Don't you think that's a bit limited?

It seems like only allowing elves in (mostly) elf-only clans limits their exposure to the player-base.

I personally get a little bored after roleplaying with myself for hours on end.

My reason for voicing such a concern:

If city-elves had more options, maybe riding in wagons/on skimmers wouldn't be such a big deal after all.

Quote from: Kiara on September 15, 2010, 01:02:44 PM
Don't you think that's a bit limited?

No, I don't. I think there is plenty of variety and opportunity for city-elves.  Of course it's not as much variety and opportunity as exists for human PCs; oh well? That's the nature of playing an unwanted, untrusted race. It's a niche role, and I am personally opposed to the idea that it needs to not be a niche role.

Quote from: Talia on September 15, 2010, 01:05:57 PM
Oh well?

...

Yes, city elves can join the byn and when they go on a ride out of the city, the entire crew is 100% dependent on the elf's stamina points, which will ultimately be far lower, and regen slower, than the inixes/war beetles they are riding. Especially if the elf chooses to actually use the RUN command to keep up with the inixes. Or, they can buy a tent, which would take that elf maybe..2 RL months worth of contracts to pay for. If the contract involves a skimmer or wagon-ramp duty, the elf cannot join.

Yes, Kurac allows city elves to join but again - the elf is not allowed to stand guard in the wagon and unless he has very specific guild/subuild, will be of absolutely no use whatsoever as a "scout" on advance run. Again, skimmers are not an option for said elf anymore, so if Kurac is going skimming, the elf must stay behind.

It used to be that an elven employee of either, would be able to decide for themselves if it was acceptable for them to stand guard on a wagon, or go out on a skimmer.  The staff has taken away that option. I don't like that at all.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 15, 2010, 01:18:55 PMThe staff has taken away that option. I don't like that at all.

Did we change the documentation on elves?

There's no such thing as anti-racial discrimination employment laws in Arm. Don't expect human-run organizations to think a celf is as good to hire as a human, even if the human is less qualified.

Just because the Byn hires elfs, for example, doesn't mean PC Sergeant #008509485 will if that pc doesn't like elfs. Same could be true for Kurac, too... Not really sure on them.

I can think of one other northern clan that can hire elves as well...but since staff has not mentioned it I won't either.....of course can does not mean will.

Quote from: Kiara on September 15, 2010, 12:55:09 PM

Quote from: Talia on September 15, 2010, 12:21:56 PM

Can you name some? I'm honestly drawing a blank. The HK/Akai/Sandsas don't count, as they push characters towards shady lives.

Elves need to be "pushed" towards shady lives? :)

Once again.

Quote from: Jingo on September 13, 2010, 12:55:10 AM
Jingo's take:

I think that if city-elves were to get a bonus on outdoor roads, I could be happy and elves would have a better time running next to wagons.

Why this has barely been discussed is beyond my understanding.

And I would hate to see elves on mounts, just because it's a sacred cow I worship.

I'll look at that one specifically as I do not think it has been investigated.

Pitching in my two cents, Jingo's on to something.  If c-elves got at least some sort of a discount on any road travel outside of cities, they still wouldn't be the far-running fearmongers that d-elves are.  They wouldn't intrude on that niche that d-elves have overmuch, and if they started to make an impact, I'm sure the wild ones could come up with an appropriate (IE: arrow filled) response to the incursion.

C-elves would still be vastly limited in range due to the stamina differential between the two, but they would have the option of getting more than five inix-lengths outside of the gates before having to rest for a full day.

Glad it's being looked into, here's some references (haven't checked them all, was just a quick search and paste).

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38596.msg540291.html#msg540291 (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38596.msg540291.html#msg540291)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34139.msg424735.html#msg424735 (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34139.msg424735.html#msg424735)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30442.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30442.0.html)

Not to take away Jingo's thunder but it gets brought up in most city elf threads. Also the idea of giving them some kind of skills to make them more at home in the city. Sure they have some now, but most people don't even notice as they pick a guild with those skills anyway.

So city elves have chosen to live in the cities. I think they should have a real knack for survival in such places, because why the hell would they stay? It's not exactly safe, as they're constantly thrown in the arena and persecuted by soldiers, nobles, templars... I think they simply be better at surviving in cities. Given a few buffs/skills that really make a difference in the city.

What I think this would do is reinforce the concept of city elves. Shit, if they could all hide and sneak people would REALLY start to despise them, for example. It would actually make every city elf a considerable pain in the arse for everyone else in the city. I think this needs another thread. An no-one's allowed to talk about wagons or silt skimmers. I'm in a hurry though, so feel free to start a discussion elsewhere if anyone finds the idea interesting.

Posting here from my phone, couldn't really read many of the more recent posts.... But! After thinking on it some, specifically Nyr's mention of retconning some stuff on the off-chance there's gonna be changes to elves.... Would a retcon really be necessary?

The way I see it, elves haven't been able to do these things for the past several hundred IG years. It wouldn't require a retcon if elves riding mounts, wagons, skimmers, what-have-you, was put in as a recent trend among c-elves IG.

Just a thought.

Yeah, I think I got that idea from earlier in this thread. Anyways...

Quote from: Talia on September 15, 2010, 01:05:57 PM

Quote from: Kiara on September 15, 2010, 01:02:44 PM
Don't you think that's a bit limited?

No, I don't. I think there is plenty of variety and opportunity for city-elves.  Of course it's not as much variety and opportunity as exists for human PCs; oh well? That's the nature of playing an unwanted, untrusted race. It's a niche role, and I am personally opposed to the idea that it needs to not be a niche role.

If this is the position of staff, then the fact that half-elves are welcome in more clans than elves seems like an oversight to me. I doubt most humans would "want" or "trust" one group more than the other.

I would also like to point out that the social stigma surrounding elves and half-elves is not explicitly present in the racial documentation. It only seems to exist as player-staff consensus in game and here on the gdb. I'm not advocating against it, but I can't find it.

As far as elves and mounts, we could give them a medium cap to the riding skill. This could be because they have lost touch with the wilds and don't know how to interact properly or control it. Hell, they wouldn't even interact with their own mount until they pulled it from the stable, used it, and then put it back. Like a tool. Keep in mind that I still don't think they should ride mounts, but I could agree to something like this.

It is already easier to ride on the road than not. We would just have to give them a bonus to not falling off of the thing.

Quote from: Jingo on September 16, 2010, 02:45:29 AM
Yeah, I think I got that idea from earlier in this thread. Anyways...

Quote from: Talia on September 15, 2010, 01:05:57 PM

Quote from: Kiara on September 15, 2010, 01:02:44 PM
Don't you think that's a bit limited?

No, I don't. I think there is plenty of variety and opportunity for city-elves.  Of course it's not as much variety and opportunity as exists for human PCs; oh well? That's the nature of playing an unwanted, untrusted race. It's a niche role, and I am personally opposed to the idea that it needs to not be a niche role.

If this is the position of staff, then the fact that half-elves are welcome in more clans than elves seems like an oversight to me. I doubt most humans would "want" or "trust" one group more than the other.

I would also like to point out that the social stigma surrounding elves and half-elves is not explicitly present in the racial documentation. It only seems to exist as player-staff consensus in game and here on the gdb. I'm not advocating against it, but I can't find it.

It would be really good to have something solid. All the documents say is that most honest folks avoid elves and half-elves are shunned by both sides. It would be good to have some ideas on racism for all races (especially elves and half-elves) in the docs, as right now its pretty vague considering the staff and players views on racism are so strong.

Many people treat half-elves as humans because they possibly don't know any better. I mean... people hate elves because they're ALL thieves with no respect at all for anyone but their own tribe. As for half-elves, people hate them because it reminds them of the fact an elf had sex with a human. YEEECH! And they make the result of that filth into soldiers. I don't want to limit half-elves as such, but they should have a pretty rough time in any organisation that refuses to employ elves, because they obviously perceive elves as thieving scum who can't be trusted.

I've been told that an idea I had would limit the ability for people who play that race to join clan(s)... And thus that concept would have to be thrown out. I am not sour over it, but just thought it to be interesting.

The logic was solid too.

The whole hamstringing of the elven race bit seems arbitrary to me.

I will say that I do agree with C-Elves never EVER riding a mount, using a pack animal, using someone else who rides a mount for the ability to use it as a pack animal, and riding wagons.

It's a way to travel across an area that is capable of being traversed by foot, in an easier fashion. This of course would be shameful to an elf.

Riding on a skimmer, the only feasible way to travel into the unknown, is a practice in pragmatism not a loss of self pride.

And I think elves are reasonable enough to make such a distinction. After all, they are the most intelligent (in general), of all the playable races.

Time to make a dwarf whose focus is to mass produce large enough "snow shoes" such that one can walk across the silt sea.  ;)

Elves use pack animals.

Quote from: Jingo on September 13, 2010, 12:55:10 AM
Jingo's take:

I think that if city-elves were to get a bonus on outdoor roads, I could be happy and elves would have a better time running next to wagons.

This is about the single most appealing idea I have heard in this thread.

Quote from: X-D on September 17, 2010, 12:50:06 AM
Elves use pack animals.

It's this fact that kind of irks me.

I WONT RIDE AN ANIMAL BECAUSE I AM SO PROUD OF MY ELVISH POINTY FEET...

But I will use one to pack all of my things. I mean come on guys! Playability!

Quote from: Reiloth on September 17, 2010, 05:03:22 AM

Quote from: X-D on September 17, 2010, 12:50:06 AM
Elves use pack animals.

It's this fact that kind of irks me.

I WONT RIDE AN ANIMAL BECAUSE I AM SO PROUD OF MY ELVISH POINTY FEET...

But I will use one to pack all of my things. I mean come on guys! Playability!

They're not proud of their non-existent amazing strength.

Just their equally-existent running ability.

;)

I remember reading a log a few weeks ago that mentioned an elf riding a mount...  I need to try to find it again.

You all are thinking like humans.

Elves think like elves (however that may be), not humans.  There may be something in their psyche that directly influences their refusal to ride, something deeply primal that a human would never feel.

Or, more interestingly to me at least, if you consider that it is probably the way the elven mind works that gives rise tribes in the first place (since each and every single one should have a tribe), and I would propose to the purpose of creating an identifying, specifically elven culture (which I would argue elves need), and every culture has this aspect to it, there is something there, beyond culture, probably at the same level as the drive to belong to tribes, that elves -literally can't- get past in their minds in order to ride.  And staff says this extends to wagons and skimmers as well.  Okay.

So, yeah.  Giving logic that makes sense to a human doesn't mean that it should make sense to an elf.  The very fabric of logic itself should be different for the different races (which I think is backed up by docs...dwarf focus, stealing not bad, whatever goes on in a giant's head).

It wouldn't take retconning in the least.

It'd take the understanding that certain d-elf tribes do cross breed with certain c-elf tribes, and that the c-elf blood is just steadily growing stronger again.

Bam, bonuses on outdoor roads from stronger legs, but no training in how to run across a goddamn wasteland without breaking your fucking ankle.

Discussed it and we've decided not to do that either, sorry.

I hope that this doesn't sound rude of flippant. It's not meant to be.

If you want to see the world, don't pick C-elf. If you want to be a great hunter, pick anything else. I like the limitation of roles. I love seeing how much stuff you can pack in a small box.

The box you get with an elf is that it's a tribal role. It's all about the tribe or lack of one. That should be the jumping off point for all rp and role concept. If that's not what you want to play, play another race.
That said, the ability to travel by foot should land squarely between human and delf. And whatever on the skimmers, I don't completely understand the choice, bu I guess I respect it.

Quote from: Nyr on September 17, 2010, 01:26:08 PM
Discussed it and we've decided not to do that either, sorry.

With all due respect, I think something should be done so that city elves are more properly represented by the player-base.

Keeping with the status quo simply isn't working.

Quote from: Kiara on September 17, 2010, 01:36:55 PM

Quote from: Nyr on September 17, 2010, 01:26:08 PM
Discussed it and we've decided not to do that either, sorry.

With all due respect, I think something should be done so that city elves are more properly represented by the player-base.

Keeping with the status quo simply isn't working for me.

Fixed that for you.  We believe it is working.  You don't, some other players don't--that's the way things work.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think we understand that some players aren't going to be pleased with some things regardless of what we as staff do or do not do.  We discussed it.  We aren't making any changes at this time.  I think that's all you can reasonably expect:  if players have an issue, staff will respond to it.  If the response is not to your liking, there are some options, but emphasizing that you feel that your opinion is right is probably not the best one.  We know how you feel; you have already stated it.  Saying the same thing in a different way is not likely to change the conversation.

I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread as it appears to have served its purpose.