Elves and Wagons

[mansa]

if pc_race == elf && ROOM == 24242
echo
feel shame

[Nyr]

Well I wouldn't want to make an elf feel shame for being in a tent.

[mansa]

sorry, i don't know wagon rooms #'s

i'm not an immortal. 

[Lizzie]

Now I want to make an elf who steals that tent.

[Dar]

Mounts/mounting them, sure. Wagons would be tricky as by arm 1 code any enterable object functions similarly.

Simple

There is a specific echo every time a wagon moves. And as far as I'm aware, it is audible anywhere inside the wagon. Something about wagon rumbling and shaking? Just code it so an elf would feel discomfort whenever he gets that echo. This way, he's absolutely fine with entering wagons, as long as anything that makes it move is either dead or tied or both

[Potaje]

Hey, Maybe make it like a land lover on a boat in the ocean for the first time and hitting bad water. Where the elf would feel sick, physically, perhaps the effect persist for a longer duration after they get off the wagon, and they would have to build a tolerance like alcohol.

[Dar]

for the record. I'm against any coded effects regarding wagons, skimmers, or mounts and elves. If an elf does somehow stoop to this (which is unthinkable) then the consequence should happen via interaction, not code.

Next we're going to encode a focus to dwarves?

[Synthesis]

I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

The argument is mainly that they aren't really as much fun to play as other races.  I'm all for rock/paper/scissors and balancing and all that, but I really don't think "fun" and "enjoyment" should be part of that equation.

Of course, pinning down what "fun" is and how to measure it is problematic, but as I've mentioned previously, the most reasonable way to look at it is in terms of what players choose to play.  For every city-elf you see around, there are easily dozens of humans and dwarves, and I think that says vastly more about the enjoyment people feel while playing those roles than it does coded prowess.

Now, if the Staff are fine with having this shit-sandwich of a race sitting there, taunting people, I guess I can accept that it's merely there as an Armageddon Hard-Mode.  I think city-elves have vastly more to contribute to the game than that, though.  They have a unique culture and mentality that is available at 0 karma...but it's a culture and mentality that few people want to explore, because it's a chore to play the race.  And it's really a damn shame that so many people can't see that by changing a few simple little things, so many more people would enjoy playing this race so much more.

[Nyr]

I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

That's a bit of cherry picking there, though artfully done.  I had to reread my post to see if I'd written that, and I did, though not to the ends you are asserting. I'll put that paraphrase in context:

The precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

The point was that elves are not unplayable, thereby making a significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon...a bit shocking to behold.  If they were unplayable, such a suggestion would be appropriate.  I think this is important here because (to paraphrase Marauder Moe, who put this well):

My take is that the docs tend to over-state racial and cultural traits because people tend to under-play them. 

It's sort of like speed limits.  If the highway safety board says the safe average speed for a particular road is 65, they post the speed limit at 55 knowing that almost everyone drives 5-10 mph over.  If the posted limit was 65, people would drive at 70-75.

Likewise, the docs say that the dwarven focus is all-encompassing, and people tend to play it in the range of very-significant to somewhat-important.  If the posted level of focus obsession was very-significant, people would probably only play it as somewhat-important to kind-of-interested-in.

Just food for thought, I honestly don't have much more on this tonight.

[mansa]

for the record. I'm against any coded effects regarding wagons, skimmers, or mounts and elves. If an elf does somehow stoop to this (which is unthinkable) then the consequence should happen via interaction, not code.

Next we're going to encode a focus to dwarves?

Dwarven focus -is- coded ?

I'm for reinforcement of game world with game world code.  People should be able to play the game without having to read all the docs to know how things work.

[Kiara]

Eh..fine, alright.

[solera]

Elves can swim.

[Synthesis]

I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

That's a bit of cherry picking there, though artfully done.  I had to reread my post to see if I'd written that, and I did, though not to the ends you are asserting. I'll put that paraphrase in context:

The precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

The point was that elves are not unplayable, thereby making a significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon...a bit shocking to behold.  If they were unplayable, such a suggestion would be appropriate.  I think this is important here because (to paraphrase Marauder Moe, who put this well):

My take is that the docs tend to over-state racial and cultural traits because people tend to under-play them. 

It's sort of like speed limits.  If the highway safety board says the safe average speed for a particular road is 65, they post the speed limit at 55 knowing that almost everyone drives 5-10 mph over.  If the posted limit was 65, people would drive at 70-75.

Likewise, the docs say that the dwarven focus is all-encompassing, and people tend to play it in the range of very-significant to somewhat-important.  If the posted level of focus obsession was very-significant, people would probably only play it as somewhat-important to kind-of-interested-in.

Just food for thought, I honestly don't have much more on this tonight.

Attempting to justify your use of a straw man by reasserting a slippery slope?  Really?

*ahem*  Allow me to be constructive:  fine-tuning city-elves would not require a "significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon."  If anything, I'd say that the lame attempts to justify the docs by some in this thread have done more damage to the perception of what the elven psyche is than anything else (i.e. the several non-documented behaviors attributed to elves).

At any rate, is "doesn't ride mounts" really a critical basic element of the city-elven roleplay experience?  Suppose we radically altered the docs to allow that city-elves no longer are prideful about the running ability they've lost (but remain prideful about everything else).  Without reference to the obvious fact that this would immediately open up new role opportunities for city-elf PCs, would it substantially and dramatically change the city-elven persona?  I submit that it would not.  They would remain prideful, arrogant, sly, thiefly, tribal, distrustful, loyal.  All you've done is slaughter a sacred cow that has dropped a metric ton of shit on an otherwise great race.  The change would be relatively simple:  instead of being uniquely prideful about their ability to run (desert-elves would retain this), city-elves would be uniquely prideful about their ability to ingratiate themselves into an ecological niche (the city) where desert-elves would be incompetent.  While a desert-elf might consider a city-elf riding a mount to be a sign of weakness, a city-elf would consider a desert-elf continuing to run on his own to be backwards and barbaric.  Both elves are prideful, both elves are thiefly, both elves are tribal, both elves are distrustful, both elves are loyal to their friends--they are still elves.  But one rides a mount and tolerates human and dwarven civilization like a parasite tolerates its host--as a sign of their advancement in thievery and deception, while the other rejects all trappings of human civilization--as a sign of their independence.

You see how easy it is to tweak the elven psyche to allow for such a thing?  In terms of the roles now available to city-elves, this would be a dramatic change.  In terms of re-writing documentation and ret-conning certain elements of the game, it would be a dramatic change.  But it would not be a dramatic change to the elven psyche itself.  Everything fundamental to this psyche remains, but it finds different expression between a city-elf and a desert-elf.  I think the fundamental mistake that's been made over the years is confounding a particular practice (not riding mounts) with underlying psychology, and that's what's generated so much malcontentedness and cognitive dissonance over the years.  It makes very little sense for city-elves, who live in an entirely different set of circumstances, to maintain a practice that is merely cultural and literally hamstrings them.  Cultures can and do change, and it would be a trivial thing to rewrite the docs to reflect this for city-elves.  This is completely and utterly separate from psychological change.  Everything fundamental to elven psychology would remain, but find different and more appropriate cultural expression for the city-elf's set of circumstances.

So what then, exactly, would be the downside to letting city-elves ride mounts, ride in wagons, and ride in skimmers?  Once you clear out the piss-poor argument that it would somehow change their psyche, the only thing I can think of is that now city-elves would be such a playable race that people might actually start playing them, and this would thin out the playerbase in non-elf-hiring clans.  This is a valid concern, I suppose, but you could equally well make the argument that non-elf-hiring clans have simply had it too good for too many years.

Cue rabble.

[zaraj]

I agree with Synth.  I love the analogy of c-elf = parasite that has mastered the art of adaption.  If the PC c-elf population suddenly grew to approximate the NPC population... that would be awesome.

*rabble rabble*

[Nyr]

That's a more palatable argument; I appreciate a plan and background to a proposal.  Thanks!

[Reiloth]

I don't think anyone's ever said city-elves are unplayable.  Positing that as the opposing position is a pretty blatant straw man.

That's a bit of cherry picking there, though artfully done.  I had to reread my post to see if I'd written that, and I did, though not to the ends you are asserting. I'll put that paraphrase in context:

The precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

The point was that elves are not unplayable, thereby making a significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon...a bit shocking to behold.  If they were unplayable, such a suggestion would be appropriate.  I think this is important here because (to paraphrase Marauder Moe, who put this well):

My take is that the docs tend to over-state racial and cultural traits because people tend to under-play them. 

It's sort of like speed limits.  If the highway safety board says the safe average speed for a particular road is 65, they post the speed limit at 55 knowing that almost everyone drives 5-10 mph over.  If the posted limit was 65, people would drive at 70-75.

Likewise, the docs say that the dwarven focus is all-encompassing, and people tend to play it in the range of very-significant to somewhat-important.  If the posted level of focus obsession was very-significant, people would probably only play it as somewhat-important to kind-of-interested-in.

Just food for thought, I honestly don't have much more on this tonight.

Attempting to justify your use of a straw man by reasserting a slippery slope?  Really?

*ahem*  Allow me to be constructive:  fine-tuning city-elves would not require a "significant change that completely alters the psyche of what an elf is in Armageddon."  If anything, I'd say that the lame attempts to justify the docs by some in this thread have done more damage to the perception of what the elven psyche is than anything else (i.e. the several non-documented behaviors attributed to elves).

At any rate, is "doesn't ride mounts" really a critical basic element of the city-elven roleplay experience?  Suppose we radically altered the docs to allow that city-elves no longer are prideful about the running ability they've lost (but remain prideful about everything else).  Without reference to the obvious fact that this would immediately open up new role opportunities for city-elf PCs, would it substantially and dramatically change the city-elven persona?  I submit that it would not.  They would remain prideful, arrogant, sly, thiefly, tribal, distrustful, loyal.  All you've done is slaughter a sacred cow that has dropped a metric ton of shit on an otherwise great race.  The change would be relatively simple:  instead of being uniquely prideful about their ability to run (desert-elves would retain this), city-elves would be uniquely prideful about their ability to ingratiate themselves into an ecological niche (the city) where desert-elves would be incompetent.  While a desert-elf might consider a city-elf riding a mount to be a sign of weakness, a city-elf would consider a desert-elf continuing to run on his own to be backwards and barbaric.  Both elves are prideful, both elves are thiefly, both elves are tribal, both elves are distrustful, both elves are loyal to their friends--they are still elves.  But one rides a mount and tolerates human and dwarven civilization like a parasite tolerates its host--as a sign of their advancement in thievery and deception, while the other rejects all trappings of human civilization--as a sign of their independence.

You see how easy it is to tweak the elven psyche to allow for such a thing?  In terms of the roles now available to city-elves, this would be a dramatic change.  In terms of re-writing documentation and ret-conning certain elements of the game, it would be a dramatic change.  But it would not be a dramatic change to the elven psyche itself.  Everything fundamental to this psyche remains, but it finds different expression between a city-elf and a desert-elf.  I think the fundamental mistake that's been made over the years is confounding a particular practice (not riding mounts) with underlying psychology, and that's what's generated so much malcontentedness and cognitive dissonance over the years.  It makes very little sense for city-elves, who live in an entirely different set of circumstances, to maintain a practice that is merely cultural and literally hamstrings them.  Cultures can and do change, and it would be a trivial thing to rewrite the docs to reflect this for city-elves.  This is completely and utterly separate from psychological change.  Everything fundamental to elven psychology would remain, but find different and more appropriate cultural expression for the city-elf's set of circumstances.

So what then, exactly, would be the downside to letting city-elves ride mounts, ride in wagons, and ride in skimmers?  Once you clear out the piss-poor argument that it would somehow change their psyche, the only thing I can think of is that now city-elves would be such a playable race that people might actually start playing them, and this would thin out the playerbase in non-elf-hiring clans.  This is a valid concern, I suppose, but you could equally well make the argument that non-elf-hiring clans have simply had it too good for too many years.

Cue rabble.

Thank you, Synthesis. You've articulated what i've been trying to, but couldn't, for some time. Thank you.

[jriley]

It DOES make sense though.

Too proud for anything but their own two feet.

No it doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that no catholics use condoms, that no muslims eat pork and that no baptists will touch a drop of alcohol.  When in reality about 10% of muslims eat pork, about 50% of catholics use condoms and about 90% of baptists drink.  Elves were never meant to be so proud that they all had extremist views on transportation.

Besides the hit to playability, it shows that the the people who are driving the bus don't understand elves, or understand that populations consist both of extremists and moderates.

[Lizzie]

It DOES make sense though.

Too proud for anything but their own two feet.

No it doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that no catholics use condoms, that no muslims eat pork and that no baptists will touch a drop of alcohol.  When in reality about 10% of muslims eat pork, about 50% of catholics use condoms and about 90% of baptists drink.  Elves were never meant to be so proud that they all had extremist views on transportation.

Besides the hit to playability, it shows that the the people who are driving the bus don't understand elves, or understand that populations consist both of extremists and moderates.

That's not what it shows to me. It shows me that, just about as much as requiring all dwarves to have a focus, with no exceptions even in a case of mental retardation or psychosis, means that people driving the bus don't understand dwarves, or that populations could consist of both moderates and hardwired exceptions.

Edited to add this paragraph: What it DOES show me, is that the staff understands that letting city elves ride, would actually give them an advantage over desert elves, IN the desert. Because desert elves DO lose stamina points when they run..and a city elf riding a mount would lose none at all. There are situations in which this could have a -very- significant advantage, not only for stamina points, but speed. I totally get that they don't have ride. And I totally get that they incur a penalty running outside cities. Wagons...I don't get it as much, but I sorta get it.

HOWEVER, I do agree that city elves need some kind of playability coded lovin. When the c-elf/d-elf was implemented, there existed no such thing as silt skimmer. So there was no reason to give d-elves a reason to take interest in the silt sea. They weren't "missing out" on anything, because there was nothing for them to miss out on. Now though, there are silt skimmers. Silt skimmers are not led by animals..there's no mounts involved, or even any wheels for that matter. Perhaps it might make sense for a city elf to not want to be passenger on a silt skimmer - the whole "I run, therefore I am in control of my own movement" thing. But perhaps it might also make sense for a city elf to pilot one. And maybe - it might make sense for a city elf, particularly one that gens in Red Storm, to be capable of mastering the skill. And maybe even come with a bump higher than novice right out of the hall of kings, IF he starts out in Red Storm. That could easily accomplish a few things all at once..

1. It'd give city elves some coded playability lovin.
2. It'd give Red Storm another reason for people to create characters there.
3. It'd give more people a built-in reason to play around with silt skimmers, and hire/scam expedition crews...
4. Could maybe even develop into competing city-elf raider tribes/crews..

[Synthesis]

It DOES make sense though.

Too proud for anything but their own two feet.

No it doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that no catholics use condoms, that no muslims eat pork and that no baptists will touch a drop of alcohol.  When in reality about 10% of muslims eat pork, about 50% of catholics use condoms and about 90% of baptists drink.  Elves were never meant to be so proud that they all had extremist views on transportation.

Besides the hit to playability, it shows that the the people who are driving the bus don't understand elves, or understand that populations consist both of extremists and moderates.

That's not what it shows to me. It shows me that, just about as much as requiring all dwarves to have a focus, with no exceptions even in a case of mental retardation or psychosis, means that people driving the bus don't understand dwarves, or that populations could consist of both moderates and hardwired exceptions.

Edited to add this paragraph: What it DOES show me, is that the staff understands that letting city elves ride, would actually give them an advantage over desert elves, IN the desert. Because desert elves DO lose stamina points when they run..and a city elf riding a mount would lose none at all. There are situations in which this could have a -very- significant advantage, not only for stamina points, but speed. I totally get that they don't have ride. And I totally get that they incur a penalty running outside cities. Wagons...I don't get it as much, but I sorta get it.

HOWEVER, I do agree that city elves need some kind of playability coded lovin. When the c-elf/d-elf was implemented, there existed no such thing as silt skimmer. So there was no reason to give d-elves a reason to take interest in the silt sea. They weren't "missing out" on anything, because there was nothing for them to miss out on. Now though, there are silt skimmers. Silt skimmers are not led by animals..there's no mounts involved, or even any wheels for that matter. Perhaps it might make sense for a city elf to not want to be passenger on a silt skimmer - the whole "I run, therefore I am in control of my own movement" thing. But perhaps it might also make sense for a city elf to pilot one. And maybe - it might make sense for a city elf, particularly one that gens in Red Storm, to be capable of mastering the skill. And maybe even come with a bump higher than novice right out of the hall of kings, IF he starts out in Red Storm. That could easily accomplish a few things all at once..

1. It'd give city elves some coded playability lovin.
2. It'd give Red Storm another reason for people to create characters there.
3. It'd give more people a built-in reason to play around with silt skimmers, and hire/scam expedition crews...
4. Could maybe even develop into competing city-elf raider tribes/crews..

Okay, you have no idea what you're talking about if you think riding a mount (by anyone) has "significant advantages" over desert-elf abilities.

The advantages you get are the ability to use charge and trample, and some extra stamina.  But you know what? Desert-elf rangers are still the Master Rangers of the Universe.  The ability to move quickly is exceptionally important when it comes to avoiding gigantic aggro mobs, and having a mount nullifies just about any attempt you might make at being stealthy.  Just about the only thing scarier than a maxed desert-elf ranger in the wastes is a maxed sorcerer.  Even then, the functional difference in terms of "how bad that motherfucker could pwn you" is pretty slim.  Just ask X-D.

And even if city-elves could ride, it does not mean they'd have access to the ranger option.  They are city-based, and the ranger skillset is too extensively desert-based to be reasonable, even for city-elves who ride.

[X-D]

First, I do not think elves of any kind should be allowed to ride animals, ever, for any reason, I think the current docs etc on that subject are fine.

But I also think that allowing celves on wagons and skimmers would not be a game breaker...currently.

Wagons are pretty rare and controled by houses that, for the most part don't even hire elves and I doubt that would change just because they don't mind wagons. Wagons are also more of a city object, maybe playing into the celf mindset of safety, who knows.

Skimmers, well, I still think any elf who even wanted to get on a skimmer would need to be insane. Still, if they were allowed on them, due to the extreme limited usefulness, I do not see it as a game breaker either.

Other then slippery slope arguements, which I actually do agree with. Because if you do give an inch they will want a mile.

[jhunter]

Some really good stuff in this thread. I'm all for keeping the rule that "elves don't ride mounts" but making it acceptable for them to ride in wagons, silt skimmers and the like. I'd rather, they may not like it, not all of them would, but it's not considered poor rp for an elf to ride in/on a vehicle. (except for d-elves who should not ride anything at all, IMO) It would sure make city-elf Bynners alot more playable and open up a few doors in terms of playability but keeping a particular aspect of the race around.

[Erythil]

I'm throwing my hat in with Synthesis on this one for reasons above discussed.

[Dar]

Truth be said. I always assumed that celven inability to ride wagons/beasts is an artificial method of enforcing them to remain in the same area. What is one 'real' reason for Delves to prefer to live within their own territory? Because if a Delf goes on an exploration journey, he might be around for rl weeks and weeks, but his tribe would never interact with him.

Same goes for Celves. If the celves are trapped in the same city, they will "eventually" learn to work together, and form some type of community. Either a tribe or a loose organization. Instead of always wondering and being spread apart, depending on themselves and the wild, then the city and it's riches. There is a reason why Celves cant be rangers, they oughta be able to survive off the cities alone. And if you can ride, you're this much less dependent on cities.

[Qzzrbl]

And if you can ride, you're this much less dependent on cities.

True, but it makes them completely useless to any of the few clans out there that even hire elves.... With perhaps the exception of the c-elf tribes out there.

But I mean, come on, why even let elves join the Byn if they have no hope to get anywhere ever as long as they wear that aba?

And this whole, "Blahblahblah, we don't want c-elves roving the deserts because they'll be more badass than d-elves or what-the-fuck-ever."

That's like saying -any- race that can ride mounts is anywhere near on-par with d-elves.

Which we all know simply ain't so.

[Spoon]

You know, I think more large, lawless areas within cities would help c-elves thrive. Mix that with solid coded tribes and they're set.

The soldiers of both cities are still far too effective and wide-roaming. The tricky part is that the current set up stops people twatting around and killing linkdead PCs left right and center (most of the time).