Armageddon General Discussion Board

I have a concern regarding the in-game economy and methods pertaining to the acquisition of wealth. Despite what the game's setting and documentation would have me believe, making money has proven to be incredibly easy unless one deliberately refrains from the many opportunities that crop up for one's character. I have found that even the most primitive forms of work, such as scavenging corpses, mining or picking leaves yields an income to rival that of actual jobs, jobs of supposedly high status such as house merchants or various kinds of sergeants and officers. I understand that this used not to be the case and that a multitude of income venues were introduced to the game along the way.

Having seen how much money one can make from a concerted mining effort or regular skimming of the 'rinth alleys, I have to question the prospect of this. I realise that part of the value of actual jobs is the board and lodging that tends to come with it, but the gain still seems overshadowed by salt-grebbing, herbalism, or the foraging of artifacts. In other words, the professions that seem like they should be last resorts that one can barely survive on are actually the most profitable in the game, to the point where people will consistently wipe out the sources of these things or, more importantly, forgo actual jobs and clans in favor of things like obsidian mining which allows you to easily sustain yourself with a few minutes of work every day instead of having to suffer schedules and chores.

This in turn appears to have the unfortunate effect on clans that nobody joins them for the purpose of making a living, and those who might join them to pursue other goals will then be deterred by the lack of clan population. Every clan that I look at, short of the Byn and whichever merchant house or militia is the flavor of the month, seems prohibitively under-populated. The times I've played in such clans myself have been similar: very few players, nothing to do, noone with any interest whatsoever in joining. I found that most of the players in the clans were people who just wanted to try out that clan to see what it was all about, not players to whom playing in the clan was part of any actual concept. This leads to a very unfulfilling experience and leaves many gaping holes in the game world.

Other than that, it just seems counter-intuitive to the setting that most Zalanthan inhabitants can just go out and make whatever money they need on demand. I see no poverty, no shortages or money-related compromises. I see no rivalries or independent trade, no incentive to pursue crime or dishonest business. I feel that the game robs itself of many things when money is of no real concern to anyone and making a living is a question of which cash vending machine to turn to. Do I want to go mining, plant-picking, salt-foraging, looting or hunting? It's all equally safe and effortless.

Yeah, it's a major many people have discussed over the years. I believe the reason I and many others choose to play in clans is for the roleplay and the "flavor" surrounding the clan(ie: playing a rough n' tumble Bynner).

While I'd love to see the current economy worked out, I doubt we'll see anything until 2.Arm.

As easy as it is though to become richer then most nobles in a RL week, it's not a whole lot of fun. Fun in this game comes from interaction with others and advancing personal and larger plots. I myself have tried once or twice a solo character whom made tons of money, and while fun to powergame for a week or two, I quickly grew bored and ended up retiring that character. All of my long-lived characters have been involved with roleplay with others and actually usually had money shortages.

  What Vessol said.  Spot on.

 Having done the whole "independently wealthy independent" thing, I can add that, yes, it's satisfying on one level, but after a while...what's the point?  Sure, I'm raking in money hand over foot..but what's the point?  I can buy anything..and don't really want to.  I can afford the most lavish of foods..that don't really fill my stomach any better than common fare, even if it does taste better.  I can deck myself out in the best looking duds..only to have them taken away when it attracts the ire of nobles/templars/merchants/"you're breaking my immerzionz!!11" players.

 Then again, if you're a solo character making all the 'sid for the purpose of using it as starting funds for an eventual plot or many, that will imvolve other players or the player base in general...go for it.  If you do it an succeed, kudos!  If you do it and only get so-so results, kudos anyway; you at least made the attempt to move into a maker and shaker position.  Keep it up.  If you do it and fail i.e. become scrab-chow...well that money gets absorbed by Nenyuk anyway and no one's the wiser.

Wealth is useless if you're not having fun, which is what playing a game is all about. We're not 'sid farmers and obsidian coins can't be sold on eBay. So what Vessol said.

Also, wealth is useless without something to back it up. A commoner with no job who is supposed to be fairly poor in the normal setting, will be treated like he is fairly poor - and if he has noble stipends in the bank, he's bound to annoy someone who's supposed to have noble stipends in the bank... so what Pale Horse said.

Yes, you can make insane amounts of money doing menial tasks. I'll tell you, though, every lone commoner I've seen get insanely rich, I've also never seen them again after a while, and the other characters never remember them when they go. Those lone commoners that avoid joining clans (or even a group of independent commoners) just die in obscurity, no matter how financially successful they have become. They came, they added nothing to any character's life, and then they disappeared. That doesn't seem very exciting to me, and I guess that's also why my most favorite characters have been in clans and groups.

My first few PCs were all basically barter-abusing 'sid farming traders. And yup, nobody remembers them or cares about them. I don't either, and I've never played an independently wealthy character after that.

I feel as if I'm playing a whole different game than the OP. Really, I've never been able to acquire vast sums of money. With any character.

Maybe it's because mine were usually after X amount of sid, for a purpose. Even if that purpose was just getting enough food and water to last until the next time he/she could go out and try again. And it always seemed as if certain npc critters were laying in wait for my character. I don't know how many character's I've lost to trying to glass mine.

And now it seems the mining office only accepts a certain amount of sid/glass per day. In total.

I don't know how people manage to get so much coin. I've not been able to do it. There were occasions I wanted to stay inside the city and pursue other rp for my character yet his or her needs meant I needed sid to feed him or her. Maybe I just fale at all this, but I really hate it when this subject comes up. It usually means staff does something about it and my few independent characters face being too poverty-stricken to live. Which in and of itself is interesting rp but you get tired of it after a while. Plus, you have hopes for what you might want your character to accomplish...

Quote from: deviant storm on August 26, 2009, 09:38:21 AM
I feel as if I'm playing a whole different game than the OP. Really, I've never been able to acquire vast sums of money. With any character.

Maybe it's because mine were usually after X amount of sid, for a purpose. Even if that purpose was just getting enough food and water to last until the next time he/she could go out and try again. And it always seemed as if certain npc critters were laying in wait for my character. I don't know how many character's I've lost to trying to glass mine.

And now it seems the mining office only accepts a certain amount of sid/glass per day. In total.

I don't know how people manage to get so much coin. I've not been able to do it. There were occasions I wanted to stay inside the city and pursue other rp for my character yet his or her needs meant I needed sid to feed him or her. Maybe I just fale at all this, but I really hate it when this subject comes up. It usually means staff does something about it and my few independent characters face being too poverty-stricken to live. Which in and of itself is interesting rp but you get tired of it after a while. Plus, you have hopes for what you might want your character to accomplish...

This.

I've had a couple of independent merchant characters, couple of independent rangers, too. Some of them extremely popular and lasting for hours/day played over the course of RL months. And I've yet to have a single one of my PCs have even enough for a tent at one time outside the merchants starting coin. Though I have to admit, my pcs usually do the least dangerous things they can think of, and usually do only the absolute minimum needed to get by because, like me, if they can socialize and have their basic needs met, they don't tend to aspire to much more. Unless it's toward specific ends.

ie:
Let me do X, Y, and Z double my usual time over C amount of IC weeks to be able to get [a new tattoo, the salary for a hunter if a merchant pc, my apartment rent, a pinch of spice, etc].

But I -especially- agree with the shit about critters hanging out -right- by the places that, logically would be -highly- populated with people trying to earn the same living and would have likely worked together at some point to drive them back.

OOCly, I know players, who I know aren't twinking or breaking any rules, who have around 50,000 sid in the bank with their longer-lived PCs that say 'Oh, it's -easy- to make money on Arm. It's -too- easy.'

My only response 'Yeah, but at what cost?'.

I'd rather play a broke as character that has the social network to do whatever the hell she pleases than to spend my time spam-mining/foraging/salting/shit-shovelling/crafting etc for a PC who knows no-one and has no impact on the IC world with the exception of draining resources other PCs need/could use.

/minirant.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 26, 2009, 10:14:52 AM
My only response 'Yeah, but at what cost?'.

What's the cost again?

<Edit for>: Just realized I need to read the entirety of posts before responding.

It is very, very easy to make coin when you have no social restrictions on doing so. That is why grebbers are often rich, whilst nobles and templars (noobles especially) are almost uniformly poor. Yes, it is ridiculous.

The only solution at present is for grebbers to consciously refrain from making so much money.

Well, the thing is in a hierarchical society money is second to class.  That is, just because one can make money it doesn't mean one can spend money.  Living in a Capitalistic free society I think it's really hard for players not to equate money with power... but, truthfully in a hierarchical society it wouldn't make that big of difference.  

Instead of trying to control the amount of wealth everyone accumulates we need more social reminders that wealth can buy privileged and the occasional bribe...  but it can't "get things done"  --- only power associated with class can do that.


If a few leadership PCs would start flat out refusing bribes from commoners... you'd have a vastly different game.


What's happening is that there are players who (because we live in a free society) have this mindset that "If I put my time and energy into this commoner/ half-elf/ 'rinith/ magicker...  than my PC should be able to become powerful so I get the feeling of winning at Arm".   Such an attitude flies in the face of a world where "you didn't have the right parents, too bad.  That was the lot you were cast, work hard and your reward is maybe a chance to squeek out a sad and pathetic life" is said to be the law of the land.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 26, 2009, 11:41:16 AM
It is very, very easy to make coin when you have no social restrictions on doing so. That is why grebbers are often rich, whilst nobles and templars (noobles especially) are almost uniformly poor. Yes, it is ridiculous.

The only solution at present is for grebbers to consciously refrain from making so much money.

The solution, both temporary and long term, is here.

While I agree that it's a concern, I think that the best solution isn't reworking the economy so much as enforcing rp. You'll never have a flawless game economy or code system that can't be abused. The problems demonstrated in the "Glasshacking Records" (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36262.0.html) thread could largely be solved by a community that fosters roleplaying, and perhaps stricter enforcement.

Nobles receive a lot of negative attention if they take advantage of the code in order to get rich. Grebbers don't, therefore, grebbers are rich. The solution isn't to nerf glasshacking, it's to apply the same standards of rp across the board, regardless of social status.

Quote from: My 2 sids on August 26, 2009, 12:23:43 PM
Well, the thing is in a hierarchical society money is second to class.  That is, just because one can make money it doesn't mean one can spend money.  Living in a Capitalistic free society I think it's really hard for players not to equate money with power... but, truthfully in a hierarchical society it wouldn't make that big of difference.   

This is an assertion not fully based on the historical record. Those at the top of the hierarchy in some systems (e.g. Victorian Britain) may have tried to put on the air of non-wealth by flaunting all the old they owned in comparison to the new stuff that the nouveau riche owned--but that did not mean they were not wealthy. It just meant they weren't new at being wealthy.

Money is ALWAYS power, in all systems. And the Zalanthan system is no exception.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 26, 2009, 12:34:39 PM

This is an assertion not fully based on the historical record. Those at the top of the hierarchy in some systems (e.g. Victorian Britain) may have tried to put on the air of non-wealth by flaunting all the old they owned in comparison to the new stuff that the nouveau riche owned--but that did not mean they were not wealthy. It just meant they weren't new at being wealthy.

Money is ALWAYS power, in all systems. And the Zalanthan system is no exception.

If that were true, than one could buy the title of noble. 

I'm not saying wealth and power don't go hand in hand.  What I _am_ saying is that this player idea that there are no glass ceilings so one as one can afford to pay people off goes against what it means to have a cast-bassed system.

Cast system means blood is thicker than money

I've always found that with socially connected characters who are relatively high in the hierarchy, you can manage to get a lot of the services for free that you'd otherwise have to pay for. Who's more powerful? An indie merchant PC who nobody knows who has 50,000 'sids? Or a socially active noble's aide with lots of friends and status?

I've played the former and in my experience the second one always wins.

Sure, you can get some stuff for free if you're socially powerful; stuff like clothing, weapons, drinks, food, even maybe housing. Stuff that, playing a noble, you probably don't really need all that much--since you receive the very basics for free. Where the money problem really comes into play for nobles (and templars) is in pursuing larger plots. If you want to build a shop, or wage a war, or construct a wagon, or write a series of books, or even make a collection of all the silly glass trinkets you can find, then you are going to need money to do that. Wages (and bonuses) for employees and partisans come from the noble's personal funds as well.

Sometimes, this is why nobles don't seem to do anything--because they're in a bind of actually needing money more than other PCs need money, in order to pursue plotlines for the good of the game--and yet they also have far more social restrictions on making money. Even the most creative of players feel unduly constrained by this aspect of playing a noble. It's extremely frustrating and definitely contributes to the premature storage of many noble and templar PCs.

What I'm basically saying is that it's all well and good to talk about how (virtually) the world of Zalanthas should be played; but the world is not actually coded that way, thus, players (being human) don't play that way. We keep trying to get players to go against what is actually human nature (finding ways to max out the economic system), rather than creating a system that codedly reinforces the virtual reality of the world.

If grebbers shouldn't be able to make 2k, or 5k, or 10k a week (any of those levels is currently obtainable, and is vastly greater than what the typical noble/templar receives as a salary) because it's not in accordance with the virtual world of Zalanthas, then the code shouldn't allow it. Obviously we'd want to have the desires of those who only want to play indies taken into account, and the needs of casual players. But being indie and/or casual shouldn't give a player a free pass to Make All The Coin You Want While Ignoring The World Land.

The problem is that one needs to make that much to survive independently.

Besides, players have to take some responsibility.   Not everyone should get the chance to bribe or build huge spy networks.

Quote from: My 2 sids on August 26, 2009, 01:49:06 PM
The problem is that one needs to make that much to survive independently.

Besides, players have to take some responsibility.   Not everyone should get the chance to bribe or build huge spy networks.

The only things any PC needs to actually, codedly survive are food and water. But it is very easy for grebbers to make far more than enough for just food and water--enough to rent the most luxurious apartment, wear silk clothing, sniff a lot of spice and drink a lot of booze, and regularly acquire new armor and weapons.

Players may "have to take some responsibility," but if the code doesn't make them, then they actually don't have to.

Then Nenyuk only offers them one room hovels,  have the nobility come down hard on non-clanned commoners wearing silk,  you know you start to add up small things like food, water, and not being kicked out of the bar every day... suddenly you find it easier to snark on friends about whose smoking what.

Players do this because others do it... change the norm and you'll find fewer and fewer players doing that (social norms are how we deal with twinkage, right?)

Nenyuk only offering them one-room hovels would require a change to apartment code. Nobility coming down hard will result only in those playing commoners even more thoroughly avoiding upper-class PCs.

And no, we don't generally deal with coded twinkage via social norms; we deal with coded twinkage codedly. (See: recent changes to charge.) We deal with roleplayed violations of documentation via social norms.

My experience playing very wealthy independants is that there is a glass ceiling on buying all the really big ticket items or organizing certain events. I found a balance in the moneymaker characters pairing not only with groups of poor warrior specialists, but nobles or other leadership types.  In a way, it became for me a different kind of "group role", being the guy who could generate the coin to fuel the local storyline, but who couldnt accomplish any of it alone.

These experiences are also why I have less pity now for abusive-rp'd nobles who flounder.  All they really need to do is find a merchant or serious grebber and keep that resource happy.

I don't think it's that bad, really.

I have buddies with their own little business running a roofing crew or cutting grass and doing grunt work that do as well or better than some stiff with a good job at an office.  The trade off is the guy at the office has an easier life.

You don't get rich working for somebody else, as true in Zalanthas as it is in real life.

It is crazy that nobles are generally more hard up for cash than jonny ranger or dirty rinther though.  If the ranger or rinther knows what they're doing anyways.

Grandfather Kadius and Salarr probably didn't spend their whole lives working for an established merchant house.

EDIT-ADD: If I was a merchant house family member or high-up and absolutely could not find people to hire or there was some real competition I'd hire some people to make independent grebber's lives difficult.  Push them into employment with someone that will make life secure.

Make masks hide the descriptions and there you go. Raiding is fun again, and average commoner is scared shitless of leaving the gates alone. No more insanely rich grebbers.

Quote from: spicemustflow on August 26, 2009, 04:10:24 PM
Make masks hide the descriptions and there you go. Raiding is fun again, and average commoner is scared shitless of leaving the gates alone. No more insanely rich grebbers.

FTW

Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 26, 2009, 04:56:48 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on August 26, 2009, 04:10:24 PM
Make masks hide the descriptions and there you go. Raiding is fun again, and average commoner is scared shitless of leaving the gates alone. No more insanely rich grebbers.

FTW

Except make an examine command that reveals mdesc with a delay. So if someone starts examining you, you can lop their head off.

Actually, no need to hassle the coders with masks. This is an encouragement for raiders of every kind and sort to leave no witnesses. Paint the sands red and so on. That way, the road to a deposit won't remind people of a tropical beach, but of deadly desert that the place is supposed to be.

Quote from: spicemustflow on August 26, 2009, 05:56:24 PM
the road to a deposit won't remind people of a tropical beach, but of deadly desert that the place is supposed to be.

Put gith back on the north road too!  or something!  painful!

I think you may be a bit off base Gimf. In old world Europe, and old world Japan both, the merchants and bankers of the day were usually quite a bit more wealthy than the nobility, and the nobility were usually heavily in debt to them because for a noble, it wasn't about how much you had, it was about how much you spent.

My main concern isn't so much with the nobles and templar being short on change; I feel like they should be having to sniff out bribes from the wealthy folks in the classes below them to maintain their lifestyles and move up in their own circles, since that's more or less how it's always happened among nobility in history.

But I do think it's a bit unrealistic that an independant grebber can gather up so much loot so quickly that you end up with GMH recruiters trying to woo them to join, instead of things being the other way around.

I also have to say it seems like there is a huge descrepency between what you can make grebbing, and what being paid a salary will get you. Sure sure, joining a clan gives you food and water and a bunk somewhere (usally) but when you're going from making in excess of 5,000 'sids a month grebbing, down to a 150-300 'sid salary ...

I was thinking, a while back, that it would be really cool if the game were such that you could actually be impressed with a character who'd accumulated a great deal of coins. As it is now, there seem to so many abusive ways to rake in sids that wealth often seems fairly ordinary. Which is sort of strange, for a resource-deprived world.

I like the idea of the nouveau riche being put in their place by the entrenched power, though.

two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

Odd idea that might work: Code Nenyuki clerks with a "report my personal bank account balance" function. At the bank, Amos would type "report balance" and the Nenyuki clerk would say it out loud. Then, a templar or noble could make Amos the Grebber come to the bank with them, get a report on his account, and demand a bribe because he's got too much coin.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 31, 2009, 04:53:57 PM
two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

Some time ago, I was thinking a solution might be for Nenyuk to somehow deal with it in the banks. Capping the balances probably wouldn't make sense (after all, are they going to turn away money?), but maybe they could require bribes fees for an especially large balance.

I would love for Nenyuk to be active and the occasional account show up a little short.  I mean who remembers exactly how much they have in their back account without writing skills?



The round-bellied Kadian agent asks the  portly Nenyuki agent in southern accented Sirihish,
 "Hey... I hear that jeweler Tatalia's been flooding tha market with cheap-ass jewelry lately.... think you could um... help pu' a  li'l pressure on 'er?

The portly Nenyuki agent strokes thoughfully at his beard.

Passing over a massive purse, the round-bellied Kadian agent gives the portly Nenyuki agent many coins.

The portly Nenyuki agent nods once, a sly grin crossing his face as he calls a passing server over for another round.


Not to mention the fun in playing a "bookie" type role.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 31, 2009, 04:53:57 PM
two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

I see nothing stopping players making their own realistic IC attempts at these two points.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 04:57:58 PM
Odd idea that might work: Code Nenyuki clerks with a "report my personal bank account balance" function. At the bank, Amos would type "report balance" and the Nenyuki clerk would say it out loud. Then, a templar or noble could make Amos the Grebber come to the bank with them, get a report on his account, and demand a bribe because he's got too much coin.

Building on this -- it would be interesting if templars had a way they'd be able to simply request a list of this information from the Nenyuki whenever they wished that would include any citizen of Allanak.  The templars could then use this information to approach said characters (likely commoners) and discuss with them how they were planning on using their good economic fortune to honor His will.

This could help work on many levels.  Not only for taxation purposes, but it could also be used by templars to network characters together where maybe one needs wealth and the other needs people/purpose.

The "Wine and Dine" Tavern [N]
The lanky, brown-haired templar is here, sitting at a small table.

The swarthy, heavy set man has arrived from the west.
A human soldier has arrived from the west.

Tugging his arm from a human soldier's grasp, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "Do you mind?  I'll already agreed to come."

The lanky, brown-haired templar lifts his gaze from the folds of a small brown journal, snapping it shut with a squeeze of his hand.

Lifting a hand casually toward the swarthy, heavy set man, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "Ah, Merchant Dochun, good of you to come.  Please sit."

The lanky, brown-haired templar shifts the fall of his robe as he shifts his weight, gesturing toward a chair at his table.

Brushing a hand along the trim of his elegant black silk sleeves, the swarthy, heavy set man nods and makes his way toward the table.

The swarthy, heavy set man sits at a small table.

At a small table, the swarthy, heavy set man asks, in sirihish:
   "How many I be of service this morning, m'lord?"

The lanky, brown-haired templar regards the swarthy, heavy set man briefly, offering a tiny smile before opening the pages of a small brown journal in his left hand.

At a small table, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "You've been quite successful lately."

Inhaling sharply as if to clear his nose, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "I get by, m'lord."

At a small table, his brows lifting quizzically, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "Oh, let's not be modest..."

At a small table, tapping the left page of a small brown journal, the lanky, brown-haired templar says in sirihish:
   "...you are literally having your way with the markets, and His Gloriousness appreciates that you can thrive in His fine city."

At a small table, licking a fat tongue over his lower lip, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "Yes, I've been doing quite well.  How can I help?"

At a small table, pointing toward the swarthy, heavy set man with a slender finger, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "The Highlord is going to allow you the honor of funding a small scouting mission into the western canyons."

At a small table, his features tightening ever so slightly, the swarthy, heavy set man asks, in sirihish:
   "And why am -I- to be entrusted with this honor, m'lord?"

At a small table, his smile suddenly vanishing, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "You're quite right, we could easily find someone else to earn His favor.  I'm -sure- you'll be just fine without it."

The lanky, brown-haired templar's chair creaks softly as he eases back, his left hand idly tracing the outer rim of a medallion of Tektolnes.

At a small table, his features blanching somewhat, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "No - no!  I must've been unclear -- I mean to say, I would be happy to fund this expedition, m'lord."

At a small table, slapping the table lightly with his fingertips as he begins to rise, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "I thought you might."

It would likely require some restraint and management over individuals with the power and ability to view such information, but I think that it could add some interesting elements and perhaps even create an environment where people wouldn't be so swift to fatten their bank accounts to the point where they begin to show up on the radar of certain influential or powerful people.

-LoD

Quote from: LoD on August 31, 2009, 05:29:59 PM
Building on this -- it would be interesting if templars had a way they'd be able to simply request a list of this information from the Nenyuki whenever they wished that would include any citizen of Allanak.  The templars could then use this information to approach said characters (likely commoners) and discuss with them how they were planning on using their good economic fortune to honor His will.

Yeah, that would be a better way to implement it.

Edited to add: And, nobles who want to pursue a particular project could go to templars and ask them for help in finding out who's got dough to contribute. Thus making a nice little circle of noble-needs-templar-needs-commoner-needs-noble, and so on.

Quote from: Adhira on August 31, 2009, 05:12:35 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 31, 2009, 04:53:57 PM
two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

I see nothing stopping players making their own realistic IC attempts at these two points.

GMH heads are often reminded by the staff that "independent competitors" aren't competition, because GMHs have the monopoly on GMH-only goods. So it is not uncommon for an "independent competitor" to acquire much more wealth, much more quickly, than GMH family members, because -they- can sell at the GMH shops in addition to all the other shops, while GMH family members are more restricted.

Quote from: Adhira on August 31, 2009, 05:12:35 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 31, 2009, 04:53:57 PM
two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

I see nothing stopping players making their own realistic IC attempts at these two points.

I've been asked to back off in such a role by my uppers because a single commoner crafter "wasn't worth the trouble" when in fact they were doing their best to corner the non-virtual market.

And, in a strictly IC way, it doesn't make sense for Kadius (or Salarr or Kurac) to be annoyed at a single commoner crafter who has no access to clan-only recipes. However, because the virtual world isn't the PC world, one or two commoner crafters can really skew the whole city economy toward themselves. Yes, staff should be concerned that there be "room" for indie crafters (or hunters or whatever) in the city--but, agents and nobles and templars gotta live, too, and they need money in order to pursue plots.

Edited again to add: And putting in a way for nobles/templars to independently "tax" commoners who are making too much coin is another non-death way to bring people into line with the virtual world. Non-lethal options are double-plus good.

Actually, come to think about it, the way Nenyuki banks currently operate seems very out-of-place in the Zalanthan world, because they operate exactly like banks do in any H&S MUD or MMO. There is no risk associated with banking; as long as you're in a civilized place, you always have access to exactly the quantity of coin you deposited; no one can catch you in a lie about your bank account; no one can steal it from you, or murder you for it; etc. Nenyuki banks, in fact, are FAR more accurate, secure, and honorable than any bank I've dealt with in the real world.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 05:47:53 PM
Actually, come to think about it, the way Nenyuki banks currently operate seems very out-of-place in the Zalanthan world, because they operate exactly like banks do in any H&S MUD or MMO. There is no risk associated with banking; as long as you're in a civilized place, you always have access to exactly the quantity of coin you deposited; no one can catch you in a lie about your bank account; no one can steal it from you, or murder you for it; etc. Nenyuki banks, in fact, are FAR more accurate, secure, and honorable than any bank I've dealt with in the real world.

You also can have 200,000 sids in the bank for 10 years and not earn a single sid in interest. And, when you die, your family cannot inherit anything, unless you are one of the privileged to have a GMH, Noble, or other appropriate Clan account. Furthermore, even if you do happen to belong to one of those privileged clans, you might not have access to the funds, if you lack the appropriate banker-flag on your account.

On the other hand, once you -do- have banker-flag access, you could strip the entire account of every last sid, and put it in your personal account. You'd probably get caught, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

There are checks and balances to some extent, it just doesn't extend beyond certain limits.

I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it. Why bother to take that contract, or go for the big theft, or try to raise coin as a merchant, or do anything at all, essentially, if Mr. Templar is going to decide you have too much and relieve you of your earnings?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:15:01 PM
I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it.

I'd certainly never want to see an indie taxed into "poverty." However, taking 5k from a 10k+ bank balance? Sure.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 06:18:04 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:15:01 PM
I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it.

I'd certainly never want to see an indie taxed into "poverty." However, taking 5k from a 10k+ bank balance? Sure.

It amounts to the same thing. Removing a prime motivation for action from the game.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:15:01 PM
I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it. Why bother to take that contract, or go for the big theft, or try to raise coin as a merchant, or do anything at all, essentially, if Mr. Templar is going to decide you have too much and relieve you of your earnings?

There are ways besides a bank to store money.  There are always bookies nd investors, too :D
Massing coins does nothing to better the game. Spending coins, on the other hand makes everyone happy.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:15:01 PM
I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it. Why bother to take that contract, or go for the big theft, or try to raise coin as a merchant, or do anything at all, essentially, if Mr. Templar is going to decide you have too much and relieve you of your earnings?

I've noticed two common cries on this board:

1) We want a harsher game world!
2) Why are things so hard for indie (read: unemployed) characters?!

Quote from: staggerlee on August 31, 2009, 06:21:29 PM
2) Why are things so hard for indie (read: unemployed) characters?!

Wow.. when was this? Indies are much easier than clanned chracters in most cases.

If an indie doesn't want their coin taken--and it does happen even now, except it's easier for an indie to cry poverty to a templar since there's no coded check on it--then there are always ways to make sure it doesn't happen. Such as: Go make a loan to a noble, or preemptively bribe the templar, or actually spend the coin, or fund your own project.

But as FW said, massing money provides exactly zip to the rest of the game world.

1. It wouldn't just appy to independents. Why should crafter Amos of House Kadius be ambitious and earn himself some coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket. Why should any character want to accept a large sum of coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket.

2. This is about motivation in the game. Bribes, pay, the big score, all become more or less meaningless. This source of motivation is already battered enough by not really being able to own any property in the game other than what one wears. Now take away bank accounts too? Characters might as well just relieve themselves on any piles of coin they find.

3. Carry the coin in your pack? Coin is heavy. And militia and templars have a habit of searching packs.

Amos is protected by Kadius. That's part of the benefit of being in a clan; your boss will go to bat for you, assuming you're minimally valuable. Logically, there should be risk to playing indie, but usually in practice there is not much.

Wanting motivation in the game doesn't get to be a magickal amulet that protects a player from being affected by the game world and the virtual circumstances.

I think this is a fine example of players being win-focused rather than story-focused.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:29:24 PM
1. It wouldn't just appy to independents. Why should crafter Amos of House Kadius be ambitious and earn himself some coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket. Why should any character want to accept a large sum of coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket.

2. This is about motivation in the game. Bribes, pay, the big score, all become more or less meaningless. This source of motivation is already battered enough by not really being able to own any property in the game other than what one wears. Now take away bank accounts too? Characters might as well just relieve themselves on any piles of coin they find.

3. Carry the coin in your pack? Coin is heavy. And militia and templars have a habit of searching packs.

I'd imagine this is exactly the sort of problem that the lower class in a city like Alllanak would face. Can't trust the guards, can't trust the banks, can't afford to eat, and if you do get paid everyone is going to try to take it from you.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:29:24 PM
1. It wouldn't just appy to independents. Why should crafter Amos of House Kadius be ambitious and earn himself some coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket. Why should any character want to accept a large sum of coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket.

2. This is about motivation in the game. Bribes, pay, the big score, all become more or less meaningless. This source of motivation is already battered enough by not really being able to own any property in the game other than what one wears. Now take away bank accounts too? Characters might as well just relieve themselves on any piles of coin they find.

3. Carry the coin in your pack? Coin is heavy. And militia and templars have a habit of searching packs.

1. Merchant Houses offer a certain amount of protection for their employees and are probably already offering a percentage of crafter Amos's earnings in bribe money to the powers that be.

2. If you are already bribing a templar, there is less change that he would be soliciting for them and your in-bank money would be much safe

3. Do you keep -all- your money on one place IRL?

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 06:33:31 PM
I think this is a fine example of players being win-focused rather than story-focused.

Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

Greed and the pursuit of wealth are the most common motivators of human existence. I'd claim it's perfectly reasonable for them to be reflected in-game.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 31, 2009, 06:36:09 PM
1. Merchant Houses offer a certain amount of protection for their employees and are probably already offering a percentage of crafter Amos's earnings in bribe money to the powers that be.

2. If you are already bribing a templar, there is less change that he would be soliciting for them and your in-bank money would be much safe

3. Do you keep -all- your money on one place IRL?

1. Maybe. Maybe not.

2. Give your coin voluntarily to the templar or have it taken away? Same thing in the end.

3. Sure, I'll squirrel it away in one of the oh-so-secure apartments we have in game. Might as well let the templar tax the inevitable thief than my character. Or wait, I'll go out and leave it in some cave. It'll be secure there, yes.  ::)

And yes, IRL I do. In the bank. Do you bury money in your back yard or stuff it in your mattress?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:39:44 PM
Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

A PC can drag him- or herself up, sure; but not without attracting attention, and not without having to pay for the privilege of retaining a newly-elevated status. Playing an indie is not a get-out-of-consequences-free card.

Salt Merchant:

Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 31, 2009, 06:55:55 PM
Salt Merchant:

Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

Also, the world (real one) will be ending soon!

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 06:51:56 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:39:44 PM
Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

A PC can drag him- or herself up, sure; but not without attracting attention, and not without having to pay for the privilege of retaining a newly-elevated status. Playing an indie is not a get-out-of-consequences-free card.

Steps like these remove the fun and point of playing an indie at all. If you're going to have to kiss ass, be subject to someone's whip and play politics regardless, you're not indie anymore.

Quote from: Lizzie
Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

(after a moment of speechlessness) I guess that settles it.  :D

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:58:48 PM
Steps like these remove the fun and point of playing an indie at all. If you're going to have to kiss ass, be subject to someone's whip and play politics regardless, you're not indie anymore.

Perhaps you could explain to me your perspective on how it makes sense with the world for anyone living legally in a Zalanthan city to get to avoid ass-kissing, whipping, and politics. This is a serious question: Does that fit with the world, and if so, how?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:58:48 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 06:51:56 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 06:39:44 PM
Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

A PC can drag him- or herself up, sure; but not without attracting attention, and not without having to pay for the privilege of retaining a newly-elevated status. Playing an indie is not a get-out-of-consequences-free card.

Steps like these remove the fun and point of playing an indie at all. If you're going to have to kiss ass, be subject to someone's whip and play politics regardless, you're not indie anymore.

Quote from: Lizzie
Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

(after a moment of speechlessness) I guess that settles it.  :D

Isn't that what happens in a horrible world where the city's are ruled by cruel dictators and the poor starve in the streets?

EDIT: DAMN IT GIMF

Quote from: staggerlee on August 31, 2009, 07:02:55 PM
EDIT: DAMN IT GIMF

(rofl!)

On the topic of wanting to avoid the ass-kissing, whipping, and politics that are attendant to city life: I totally can sympathize with that. I don't like to play a groveling low-life with every PC, either. However, when I want to opt out of the automatic minion status of playing a citizen commoner in a city, then I opt out of playing in a city. That's how it works.

Lizzie, Gimf, and I all three agree.
BE afraid, BE very, very afraid.

Seriously though Salt Merchant, it's just a simple matter of the food chain.

You got your half-elven rinthi non-(insert clan name here) member independent piece of shit good-for-nothing scum bag.  He's gonna be at the mercy of pretty much everyone. If everyone demands that he kiss their ass, then he can either pucker up, or die.

Then there's the elven non-clanner independent skinny thieving scum bag. He'll be at the mercy of everyone -except- the half-elven mentioned above, IF he leaves his section of the Rinth. Then there's the human on the -other- side of the rinth - they -would- be equal, except that elves have a built-in measure of distrust from everyone, including other elves. So the human would be only marginally higher on the food chain.

Then there's the independent somethingorother outside the rinth, who will be at the mercy of everyone outside the rinth who isn't employed by him. Then you've got your clannies, who are at the mercy of their superiors..and at the mercy of any clan of higher social or legal rank than their clan (such as a GMH Crafter, vs. a Noble). If a Noble says the GMH crafter stole from him, then the GMH crafter stole from him. Unless the GMH crafter's boss comes up with a damned good incentive for the Noble to forget about the accusation.

And even the noble has to answer to his senior..and the blue-robes have to answer to the Reds, who answer to the Blacks, who answer to Tek. And EVERYONE answers to Tek.

So your independent no-body unclanned trader, no matter how rich, is still nothing more than an independent nobody unclanned trader, and his sids don't mean shit if a noble says "You stole from me." Because that independent nobody unclanned trader has no one to speak on his behalf, except his bank account.

One of the things that attracts me to playing this sort of game is that the might of one's arm or the might of one's magick can give one significant influence in the world, at least potentially. A world in which individual power and skill matters.

It's different from our RL world. In RL, most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards. (Or unless they're a truly brilliant scientist or inventor, which is the route I'm -trying- to take).

Yes, within the city states, indies are subject to templarate abuse as much as any unaffiliated commoner. But it's a non-specific abuse, and it's possible to "fly under the radar". Potentially one could build up enough coin to start an organization or commission a building to be made. Having templars examining financial statements (and of course, they'd -always- spot that rich PC, even when in a huge crowd dotted with rich NPCs) is a big step toward taking this (individual potential) away.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:18:56 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
It's different from our RL world in which most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards.

Since when?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:23:02 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:18:56 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 31, 2009, 07:23:39 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
It's different from our RL world in which most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards.

Since when?

Since the game's inception? Although I admit there's been a continual trend away from that, toward a "just a cog in the machine" sort of world. Taxing commoners that manage to get somewhere is another step toward that.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:27:17 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 31, 2009, 07:23:39 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
It's different from our RL world in which most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards.

Since when?

Since the game's inception? Although I admit there's been a continual trend away from that, toward a "just a cog in the machine" sort of world. Taxing commoners that manage to get somewhere is another step toward that.

Wait, are you saying RL = can't do shit unless you play the corporate game/Arm = The opposite? (which is what I thought you meant)

Orrr the complete opposite of that?

Your wording threw me for a loop.  ???

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:24:30 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:23:02 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:18:56 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

A PC is generally an exceptional individual. Your typical commoner couldn't the things a PC can do with his individual power (e.g. ride out into the wilderness and slay scrabs and tarantulas, or conjure up food or water).

The thing about heroically slaying tarantulas or making an oasis appear is that generally there's no templar around to see it.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 31, 2009, 07:29:20 PM
Your wording threw me for a loop.  ???

Now I'm confused.

What I mean is that, definitely in RL, any path to having an impact of the world mostly (purely?) involves politics, force of personality and gift of the gab.

Adventure games (which is how Arm started out, with a veneer of RP) are about the individual or small groups and what they can accomplish through swords and sorcery.

The game has evolved toward "telling a story" but it still retains a strong component of an adventure game. I like the mix. I don't want to see it shift into purely Mr. Nothing Commoner's story and Mr. Bored Noble's story told in a thousand variations.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:30:45 PM
A PC is generally an exceptional individual. Your typical commoner couldn't the things a PC can do with his individual power (e.g. ride out into the wilderness and slay scrabs and tarantulas, or conjure up food or water).

So, go ahead and be exceptional. However, as I've already said, expect consequences--both good AND bad. There is always a price.

I'd like to see the staff giving the independents something to spend the coins on other than just items and bribes. Something to compete with each other would be nice. I think a small compound would be ideal.
START UP COSTS
   Have it cost a lot of coins to lease it for a year, sort of like a large apartment. And that's just for the property.  Then you -should- get some gate guards. You -might- want a stable hand. Each of these professions also cost an initial start up cost for hiring and -then - a maintenance fee every month or so.
Other perks like cooks, tabards, a cistern, patches cost more and so on as well as the maintenance. The compound basically gives you a guild like account that you can put it and the pcs, rent and other types of maintenance fees withdraw from the account every month.  The pcs can only rent so many npcs before they will overreach. If an npc doesn't get paid he quits. Then to get a replacement have to pay the startup fee again as penalty.

TWINK CITY?
   Sure. But anywhere can be, anyway. The draw on the account will keep coins down.  The owner of the clan will probably have to hire pcs to keep supplied and so on. The thing is that the account has to be paid.  The player died the rent don't get paid and it goes back on the market. Other independents will try and get the compound. They might frame the guy, kill the guy, make it so he can't get materials, murder his npcs, storm his compound. I think the possibilities are pretty interesting. People might get into the group and then rob him. Or a second in command murders him to take over the clan, assuming he can keep putting money into the account.
   What  about the merchant houses?  Let their pcs work actively against this compound. This is not a one man operation to ignore, this is -trouble- to be dealt with. People flagged in this clan can be barred from trading with the GMH npcs.  Conflict, the heart of role-play, ensues.  Just one per main city for rarity and competition. Sort of a flavor of the month kind of clan, The ones that rise and fall so soon.

Like mentioned, there is no IC reason for a GMH to feel threatened by indie PCs (Don't see McD's attacking the 12-seat burger joint down the street).  However, I do think the Templararate may want to take notice if someone is sitting on 10k coin.  Reason being, why do they have that coin?  Sounds suspicious.   And by OOC standards, well maybe that player should be given a nudge to actually -do- something with that coin.

As for the bank... The Templars and Nobility are always trying to find that balance which keeps the general population juuuust shy of rising up and killing them all.  Nenyuk's commitment to commoners (as far as accuracy) helps keep the common population just content enough with their lives.  Further, there are still scribes and accounting isn't necessarily the same as literacy. 

Finally, I don't think it's at all about PCs feeling like they can do better than GMHs -- I think rather PCs not being good enough to secure employment with GMH.  I like how many of the clans are set up currently -- with a probation period providing room and board (some players forget just how wonderful this alone would be in game!) and then having the PC have to proove their worth to the house (I think a lot more PCs should be fired, but that's just me)

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:24:30 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:23:02 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:18:56 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 31, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

Again, I do not always want to be the guy living hand to mouth if I play an independent. I have a hard enough time making a go of it and surviving. Sure, a few people overdo the moneymaking angle. It happens. But why limiit everyone's options because of a few people? I cannot emphasize enough my distaste for this thread and what some of you seem to want to happen.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 01, 2009, 06:34:57 AM
Finally, I don't think it's at all about PCs feeling like they can do better than GMHs -- I think rather PCs not being good enough to secure employment with GMH. 

I have to respectfully disagree with this part. I don't like playing in clans because my PC is usually under far less restrictions and making far more money (to put to use plotting and the like) as an indie; and for me ... ability to go where I want when I want and deal with who I want + money to make things happen = lots and lots of fun.

Just my own opinion of course, but I think that as things stand, most folks playing in clans are probably playing in them for either the "flavor" of RP the clan provides, or for metagame information (like ... I'll play a crafter in Kaidus and learn a lot of crafting recipies, then I as a player will have a much easier time with any crafting PC's I decide to play down the line)

Quote...for metagame information (like ... I'll play a crafter in Kaidus and learn a lot of crafting recipies, then I as a player will have a much easier time with any crafting PC's I decide to play down the line)

And I as a player of a leader character will be even more suspicious, wary, and fed up with having to hire people who's *players* only want to join the clan so they can learn recipes, quit, and go out on their own or store to have new characters that already know the information.

Please don't do that.

I don't have any comment on whether doing so is good or bad.

I just think that it happens. It's been stated before on the general board that folks will play a clanned crafter then go play an indie one once the recipies are learned ... or they'll play a gemmed mage so that when they play their next ungemmed one they already know the in's and out's of how the class functions, branches, survives.

My only point is that I think the chief two reasons most people would want to be in a clan are:

For the flavor you get from RP'ing being a Bynner/Kuraci/Kaidan/Tribal
To learn IC things about the game you would have a hard time learning on your own like crafting/magick.

And that the reason most assuredly is not:

Because the money is good.

So, I disagree with my 2 sid's opinion, as quoted above, because I think that the reason most PC's abstain from joining clans is precisely because they feel like they can do better on their own.

Oh I know it happens Musashi. It happens regularly. You might be surprised (or not) to learn how often a leader character is actually TOLD icly... "I want to join your GMH to learn what you can teach me, and then go out on my own and make my fortune." It happens often enough that it's easier to just tell everyone "We're not hiring" and then hope to run into someone who might actually stick around and be worth hiring.

It gets to the point where you can even empathize with the Byn leaders, having so many of them join -exclusively- for the training, then leave the second they're given the option. The Byn needs seasoned troopers in order to go on all those dangerous contracts - if all they ever get are Runners who leave the second they show that they can actually do the job, then they'll never really be qualified to go on all those contracts. But, that's a drawback of having a clan that focuses on its training program. GMHs don't have training programs like that, but damn if the vast majority of guild_merchant or assassin/jewelers don't try to use them for that anyway.

To the ones who get hired by clans (especially GMH) because their characters really want to join that specific clan, I say kudos x 100 and your characters are worth their weight in copper. Just don't tell that to their boss :)

Lizzie's right.

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 07:18:50 AM
Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

Again, I do not always want to be the guy living hand to mouth if I play an independent. I have a hard enough time making a go of it and surviving. Sure, a few people overdo the moneymaking angle. It happens. But why limiit everyone's options because of a few people? I cannot emphasize enough my distaste for this thread and what some of you seem to want to happen.

I believe you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that your indie PC should only be able to make 50 coins per day; I am saying that 50 coins per day worked would be a typical wage for your average commoner. So, when an indie PC makes far, far more than that per day worked, then that PC is exceptional--and exceptional PCs get noticed. Go ahead and refuse to live "hand to mouth" if you want, that is fine; but no PC should get to expect to do that and somehow be exempt from playing by the rules of city society. It's akin to wanting to play a rogue magicker: Great, go ahead! However, if you're doing it inside a city, you will (almost always) eventually be noticed and targeted because you are the exception, and because society has rules.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 01, 2009, 06:34:57 AM
Like mentioned, there is no IC reason for a GMH to feel threatened by indie PCs (Don't see McD's attacking the 12-seat burger joint down the street).  However, I do think the Templararate may want to take notice if someone is sitting on 10k coin.  Reason being, why do they have that coin?  Sounds suspicious.   And by OOC standards, well maybe that player should be given a nudge to actually -do- something with that coin.

Actually, in the real world, large corporations do aggressively defend their trademarks all the time, even against the smallest of potential competitors. And you're right, what we're talking about is that players should be doing something with their coin to better the game, not just sitting on it. Players of nobles and templars don't get to just sit on their coin (the little they get), they're supposed to use it for plots--so why is it OK for indies to hoard?

Quote from: musashi on September 01, 2009, 07:45:34 AMI don't like playing in clans because my PC is usually under far less restrictions and making far more money (to put to use plotting and the like) as an indie; and for me ... ability to go where I want when I want and deal with who I want + money to make things happen = lots and lots of fun.

The thing about indies using money to pursue plots is that 1. Mostly they don't, so if you do you're actually a rare exception; 2. Even if an indie does pursue a plot, due to the current game structure and nature of imm support, they're only going to be able to pursue character-level plots. And character-level plots are fine and good and part of the salt of the game, but they are not clan-level or city-level or world-level plots, nor are they likely to develop into those higher-level plots. For the most part (again, current game structure and imm support), those higher-level plots are the responsibility and the privilege of apped leadership PCs. Apped leadership PCs are the PCs who have the hardest time making coin, due to social restrictions; and yet they are supposed to be responsible for making big plots happen.

So, honestly, if indie PCs are refusing to involve themselves in the bribe-support cycle which helps apped leadership generate money for higher-level plots, then those players are simply being selfish and harming the game.

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 07:18:50 AM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:24:30 PM
A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

i dont know if nobles are paid that much

gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

Quote from: Ghost on September 01, 2009, 01:12:31 PM
gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

Well, I based my number on what it's possible to make by codedly digging clay in Tuluk, which, if you really did it for a full Zalanthan day would be in the range of 30 to 50 coins.

But yeah, you're right about what the staff said.

Quote from: Ghost on September 01, 2009, 01:12:31 PM

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 07:18:50 AM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:24:30 PM
A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

i dont know if nobles are paid that much

gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

Heh, reminds me of my favorite account note:

QuoteHas 21000 in Nenyuk, yet still is in UT backstabbing and looting NPCs for gear.

Quote from: Ghost on September 01, 2009, 01:12:31 PM

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 07:18:50 AM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2009, 07:24:30 PM
A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

i dont know if nobles are paid that much

gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

That might be accurate IF the PC...

-worked every day of that month. On many jobs, you can't always work them/get paid the full 50 sid per day. Either it's storming too bad, there are too many wicked things in the way, the clay/mines/whatever just aren't producing that well for you that day. These things fluctuate.
-played every day of that month. Most of us don't. We have to log off occasionally to deal with real lives.
-don't spend any time doing anything else except working during every day of that month.

While some people do the last, those of us who spend time in roleplay with other people would just like to be able to make a few sid and get by, without threads like this convincing staff that sid should be harder to make.

Not every character is hireable by a clan.

And if someone wouldn't mind, I'd love a link to what some staffer/helper said about how much the average commoner makes.

Quote from: musashi on September 01, 2009, 07:45:34 AM
Just my own opinion of course, but I think that as things stand, most folks playing in clans are probably playing in them for either the "flavor" of RP the clan provides, or for metagame information (like ... I'll play a crafter in Kaidus and learn a lot of crafting recipies, then I as a player will have a much easier time with any crafting PC's I decide to play down the line)

I disagree with this. You know why I like playing in clans? Because clans give my character a defined 'slot' in society. When I play in a clan, I know roughly how I should be treating others and how others should be treating me. Clans provide a structure for interactions and for creating plots and without them there would be little continuity or realism to the world. They also force players to acknowledge vNPCs -- if there were no merchant houses, the only thing that would matter would be the amount of coins a merchant PC had. Clans, and particularly staff input in them, forces players to work with things that ICly exist but have no basis in the code. Which is a good thing.

And this is coming from someone who's first three PCs were all haggle-spamming indie merchants. I made somewhere around 20K, all hoarded in Nenyuk. It was boring, nobody loved me and it just kind of sucked.

Clans.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 01, 2009, 06:34:57 AM
Like mentioned, there is no IC reason for a GMH to feel threatened by indie PCs (Don't see McD's attacking the 12-seat burger joint down the street).  However, I do think the Templararate may want to take notice if someone is sitting on 10k coin.  Reason being, why do they have that coin?  Sounds suspicious.   And by OOC standards, well maybe that player should be given a nudge to actually -do- something with that coin.

Just because McDonalds Corporation isn't going to be attacking the 12-seat burger joint doesn't mean that a specific franchise owner down the street won't be in competition with them. I've seen this happen IRL quite a bit. People forget that PC GMH merchants are ICly one of dozens in their city-state. So yes, while Kadius as a whole won't be worried about Amos the tailor, a specific Kadian merchant might want to deal with him when he starts stealing customers.

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 01:54:51 PM
That might be accurate IF the PC...

-worked every day of that month. On many jobs, you can't always work them/get paid the full 50 sid per day. Either it's storming too bad, there are too many wicked things in the way, the clay/mines/whatever just aren't producing that well for you that day. These things fluctuate.
-played every day of that month. Most of us don't. We have to log off occasionally to deal with real lives.
-don't spend any time doing anything else except working during every day of that month.

While some people do the last, those of us who spend time in roleplay with other people would just like to be able to make a few sid and get by, without threads like this convincing staff that sid should be harder to make.

Not every character is hireable by a clan.

And if someone wouldn't mind, I'd love a link to what some staffer/helper said about how much the average commoner makes.

You might try running the numbers. I did, and it's enlightening! But before I show you the numbers, I'll say: I haven't been able to find the thread where staff discussed what VNPC commoner grebber salaries are, though I've searched extensively for it. However, I know it's been discussed, and I know that Ghost and I are in the right ballpark on it. That being said, here, have a post by Vanth on what the salaries are for clanned PCs (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29719.msg325652.html#msg325652). You will note there that average salaries for clanned PCs of ALL levels are much, much less than the amount that we all agree can be made by grebbing. It's factual. The average noble or templar is making 1500 every TWO RL WEEKS.

Now, compare to the numbers for indie grebbers, in city and out. This takes some explanation, but it's clear, if you follow along.

The constants for these calculations are based are based on RL week and RL hour. I'm not calculating anything in relationship to game time, because players play for chunks of real time, not game days. Also, these numbers are general and based on Tuluk; but the constants could be changed easily to perform calculations based on Allanak, instead.

Frequency of need to codedly eat in the city - 4 hours
Frequency of need to codedly drink in the city - 8 hours
Frequency of need to codedly eat outdoors - 2 hours
Frequency of need to codedly drink outdoors - 1 hours
Food cost to fill up - 50 coins
Water cost to fill up - 60 coins
Stabling cost - 20 coins
City grebbing salary per hour (clay digging) - 50 coins
Outdoors grebbing salary per hour (lumberjacking or 'sid mining or salt mining) - 200 coins
Regular player playtime per day - 4 hours
Casual player playtime per day - 1 hours

All PCs have the fixed cost of weekly rent @ 250 coins for the most crappy apartment.

Variable costs include food, water, and stabling; the calculation of variable costs is based on number of hours of playtime, and whether those hours of playtime are spent in the city, or outdoors.

Regular Player, Outdoors
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 700 food, 1680 water, 280 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 5600
-- Weekly Profit: 2690

Regular Player, City
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 350 food, 210 water, 0 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 1400
-- Weekly Profit: 590

Casual Player, Outdoors
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 175 food, 420 water, 140 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 1400
-- Weekly Profit: 415

Casual Player, City
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 87.5 food, 52.5 water, 0 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 350
-- Weekly Profit: -40

From what I have experienced in the game, I feel my constants for these calculations are correct, but I'm interested to hear if other people seem to think different.

The above illustrates why it is so hard to get by as a casual player, and how indies are able to make so much more money than clanned PCs, as well. The economy is not balanced well.

But would a casual player really have so much stuff as to need an apartment?

In a 250-per-RL-week apartment, you're not going to actually be storing stuff. Heh. This is more calibrated for the "what players tend to think is the absolute basics of a successful PC." Even casual players like to have a crappy place to take their girl/boyfriend.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 01, 2009, 03:11:18 PM
But would a casual player really have so much stuff as to need an apartment?

Need a place to casually mudsex.  :P Unless you use backrooms... or rooftops. *tugs collar*

Also, as you will see if you put the numbers into a spreadsheet and play with them yourself, it is not the fixed costs that are the ultimate determiner of PC profitability. Rather, it is the variable costs and wages. Even if you bump a "Regular Player, Outdoors" up to the most expensive apartment available--in the realm of 1500 per week--they are still making a profit of about 1400 per week. However, if you keep them in the 250 apartment and bump water fill-up to 150 instead, then you almost eliminate profit. (That is, assuming that my belief about water needs outdoors are correct--I am not an extremely experienced outdoor player, but it reflects how I seem to remember it.)

Travelling is too easy and not dangerous in the least. You can ride from Tuluk to various other locations as a merchant and likely never even get attacked. I think there needs to be more emphasis on robbers and raiders. Make one if not two coded raiding groups with background, rules, blah blah blah. Make those traders have to make friends or hire 'friends'. All these people running around with tons of coins? Let's make people who know that and want to take it from them!

Quote from: Ghost on September 01, 2009, 01:12:31 PM
what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

No one is going to be able to support an active character on 300 to 500 'sid an in-game month if they have to pay for food and water.

Franky, the cost of food and water doesn't make sense relative to the pay characters receive.

Also frankly, I don't know where people are getting the notion of 10,000+ 'sid a month characters from. Unless they're in Tuluk or sitting in Red Storm spam-tailoring or have reached master-crafter status.

My grebbers have had to struggle just to save up a thousand coins to buy some armor, after the cost of water and food is deducted.

Even a competent merchant character I once played had difficulty raising coin because the shops were always full from crafters' output or out of coin when trying to trade. It took a lot of grinding to build up a bank account of 13,000 'sid with the aim of buying a small shop. At which point I was fed up and retired him.

Wouldn't it have been lovely for a templar to have come by and taxed him down to 500 'sid? After a RL month of effort? Isn't that just what he busted his butt for?

No thanks.

And if large bank account sums tend to sit inert and don't affect the game, why do people resent them so much? 1. No effect + not visible = no problem, so far as I can see.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 03:53:44 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

This is a game, meant to be played for fun. Not an economic simulation.

As an economic simulation, it fails on too many levels to count. Let's not even try to go there.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 03:54:39 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 03:53:44 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

This is a game, meant to be played for fun. Not an economic simulation.

And your fun, rather than the fun of the playerbase as a whole, is the priority for you. We get that. I still call it twinking.

QuoteAnd if large bank account sums tend to sit inert and don't affect the game, why do people resent them so much? 1. No effect + not visible = no problem, so far as I can see.

"Out of sight, out of mind" doesn't really work here, because people who don't affect the game are essentially a waste of space when it comes to major plots. They're not in a clan, they're not putting money towards clans or any authority, so they are a problem simply by stifling opportunities.

No one's going to take 12,500 of your 13,000 sid, and there's no point in using numbers in examples. But money does need to generally flow from rich people who are supposed to be poor, to poor people who are supposed to be rich, so the game can function the way it's really supposed to for the vast majority of players.

Based on some of the ideas surrounding the economy and the casual player, I made this suggestion (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36316.msg472979.html#msg472979) in the Arm Reborn forum for Quit Work.

-LoD

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 03:58:09 PM
And your fun, rather than the fun of the playerbase as a whole, is the priority for you. We get that. I still call it twinking.

My fun?

May I point out that it's you who is suggesting a change to the game? To suit your own opinion of how things should be? Or did you manage to poll the entire playerbase during our brief discussion here, to be speaking on their behalf?

Do you really believe that grebber X's invisible 10,000 'sid bank account is spoiling the game for everyone?

It can't be spoiling the game for you. You don't even play the game these days, by your own admission.

Quote from: Cutthroat on September 01, 2009, 03:59:39 PM
"Out of sight, out of mind" doesn't really work here, because people who don't affect the game are essentially a waste of space when it comes to major plots. They're not in a clan, they're not putting money towards clans or any authority, so they are a problem simply by stifling opportunities.

Finding it hard to believe some of the statements people are making here. So now indies are stifling opportunities and are a waste of space?  :o

Who ever said people have play the game with the intent of entertaining others? Unless they apply for a leadership role, I don't see any responsibility in that regard. Hopefully mutual entertainment arises as a by product of one's own entertainment.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 04:13:10 PM

Quote from: Cutthroat on September 01, 2009, 03:59:39 PM
"Out of sight, out of mind" doesn't really work here, because people who don't affect the game are essentially a waste of space when it comes to major plots. They're not in a clan, they're not putting money towards clans or any authority, so they are a problem simply by stifling opportunities.

Finding it hard to believe some of the statements people are making here. So now indies are stifling opportunities and are a waste of space?  :o

Of course that would be silly as a standalone statement, but you're taking me out of context.

When it comes to major plots, indies have almost no place in them most of the time. Major plots are often clan-based. Indies have their own place and it's often not in clans... by definition. A templar or noble who wants to do something that requires money will, well, need money. Where's he going to get it from, if the people who are making money are hiding it away?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 04:11:07 PM
Do you really believe that grebber X's invisible 10,000 'sid bank account is spoiling the game for everyone?

Yes, I believe there are definite effects of this behavior, including causing players to choose to play indies over playing clanned, and putting apped leader PCs in subordinate positions to indies economically. Indies who play this way skew the game world away from how the documentation says things should be; it's analogous to what happens when there are too many non-mundanes and everyone is good buddies with those PCs.

Quote from: Cutthroat on September 01, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
A templar or noble who wants to do something that requires money will, well, need money. Where's he going to get it from, if the people who are making money are hiding it away?

I hope not by taking away weeks or months of others characters' hard work. If this really is a big problem, their stipends should be increased.

Plus, if they do take away the fruits of other characters' labor, those fruits will quickly dry up, which is my original point. Motivation disappears, and the nobles and templars are left with no more money anyhow.

Indies are just that, independent. They're not part of any clan. They're generally not part of clan plots, and certainly don't encourage people to join clans based on the clan's population. And on top of all that, they have the potential to make more money than nobles and templars, and everyone else, could even dream of seeing IG.

What exactly -are- they bringing to the game world, other than a little character interaction in between spam <insert money-maker here>?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 04:18:27 PM

Quote from: Cutthroat on September 01, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
A templar or noble who wants to do something that requires money will, well, need money. Where's he going to get it from, if the people who are making money are hiding it away?

I hope not by taking away weeks or months of others characters' hard work. If this really is a big problem, their stipends should be increased.

Why should a stipend (money from staff to player) be increased if the money (not a huge portion, mind you - I'm not saying authority figures should completely rob a person) can be gained from player-to-player interaction, which is often considered the preferred method of dealing with anything?

Edit in response to your edit: SM, player-to-player interaction isn't one way. If the indies get something for their money just like anyone else would get something, shouldn't that be the optimal choice for players of leaders looking for money?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 04:13:10 PM
Who ever said people have play the game with the intent of entertaining others? Unless they apply for a leadership role, I don't see any responsibility in that regard. Hopefully mutual entertainment arises as a by product of one's own entertainment.

Do you have a responsibility to play the game according to the documentation? I think we all do.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/authority.htmlAnyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well. -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

If you're not bribing, choosing instead to amass thousands of coins in the bank, then you're playing wrong.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 01, 2009, 04:18:53 PM
Indies are just that, independent. They're not part of any clan. They're generally not part of clan plots, and certainly don't encourage people to join clans based on the clan's population. And on top of all that, they have the potential to make more money than nobles and templars, and everyone else, could even dream of seeing IG.

What exactly -are- they bringing to the game world, other than a little character interaction in between spam <insert money-maker here>?

Okay, so you are officially questioning the existence of independents in the game. You want Arm to be ClanMud (tm).

First of all, I don't think independents with fat bank accounts are anywhere so common as people are making them out to be here. They don't tend to survive all that long, for one thing.

Secondly, independents are capable of generating plots. I'll provide a simple example (I think it's been a year now). A gemmed Whiran of mine was able to raise some coin by drifting about grebbing. This took a couple of weeks of RL play. He became curious about the nose of a statue he had found in Red Storm, so he hired the Byn (at a rather generous premium) to go out and locate a statue he had heard rumors of and report its description. Fine, not only was that statue in possession of a nose, but it wasn't even the same material. So he spied another statue out in the desert, and again hired the Byn, this time to go retrieve it. He died before they got around to attempting this, but if they had, certain elves might have become very annoyed. And so it could have led to strife and fun.

Thirdly, low-rank clan roles can be very confining, especially during the inevitable down-cycles clans go through. They aren't for everyone, all of the time.

Fourthly, high-rank clan roles can be very taxing. I'm sure everyone is aware of this point by now.

So, no, I'd have to say independents definitely have their place in the game.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 04:33:11 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 04:13:10 PM
Who ever said people have play the game with the intent of entertaining others? Unless they apply for a leadership role, I don't see any responsibility in that regard. Hopefully mutual entertainment arises as a by product of one's own entertainment.

Do you have a responsibility to play the game according to the documentation? I think we all do.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/authority.htmlAnyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well. -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

If you're not bribing, choosing instead to amass thousands of coins in the bank, then you're playing wrong.

Alright, I'm weary of these opinions presented as if they were solid facts and straw man arguments and innuendos. I'm not going to debate them further, so you "win".

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 04:33:20 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 01, 2009, 04:18:53 PM
Indies are just that, independent. They're not part of any clan. They're generally not part of clan plots, and certainly don't encourage people to join clans based on the clan's population. And on top of all that, they have the potential to make more money than nobles and templars, and everyone else, could even dream of seeing IG.

What exactly -are- they bringing to the game world, other than a little character interaction in between spam <insert money-maker here>?

Okay, so you are officially questioning the existence of independents in the game. You want Arm to be ClanMud (tm).

First of all, I don't think independents with fat bank accounts are anywhere so common as people are making them out to be here. They don't tend to survive all that long, for one thing.

Secondly, independents are capable of generating plots. I'll provide a simple example (I think it's been a year now). A gemmed Whiran of mine was able to raise some coin by drifting about grebbing. This took a couple of weeks of RL play. He became curious about the nose of a statue he had found in Red Storm, so he hired the Byn (at a rather generous premium) to go out and locate a statue he had heard rumors of and report its description. Fine, not only was that statue in possession of a nose, but it wasn't even the same material. So he spied another statue out in the desert, and again hired the Byn, this time to go retrieve it. He died before they got around to attempting this, but if they had, certain elves might have become very annoyed. And so it could have led to strife and fun.

Thirdly, low-rank clan roles can be very confining, especially during the inevitable down-cycles clans go through. They aren't for everyone, all of the time.

Fourthly, high-rank clan roles can be very taxing. I'm sure everyone is aware of this point by now.

So, no, I'd have to say independents definitely have their place in the game.

I don't Arm to be ClanMud, I want Arm to be brutal and scary, and require you to at least be paying -someone- to watch your ass if you don't have a clan to. This isn't happy fat bank-account indie land. If indies are capable of starting plots, I sure as hell haven't seen many step up and do so in my year of playing.

First, I have to say, though I am quite good at making money IG, indy or clanned.

By far my richest PCs have been clanned, one even passed 300k in only 12 IG years...but he was a special case.

Indy PCs, wealthy or not, are needed. They provide many things, from a good source for pickpockets and burglers (since clan compounds are much harder to get in and out of then apartments) To raider bait and trade with the clanned or more city bound PCs.

I have no problem with indy PCs being able to make thousands of coins a day and even keep the coin safe in the bank. Specialy if I'm playing a raider. Any smart raider is going to target unclanned PCs anyway, I mean who is going to back them up, maybe they have a couple other unclanned friends, big deal, more loot.

Maybe most the plots are low level pc to pc plots but hey, thats the day to day stuff and the game would be lacking without them.

I'm not really sure how this conversation devolved into a debate concerning the "validity" or "worth" of wealthy independent characters.  I've never doubted either of those two things, and have never seen any documentation that states independent commoners cannot amass vast sums of wealth or that imposes a limit on bank accounts, personal holdings, or anything of the sort.

I've witnessed plenty of independent characters subtly and overtly impact world-level quests and events over the years, however, what I think is being interpreted (mostly by Salt Merchant) as some attack on the viability of independent merchants is much less about keeping them down than providing ways to keep them involved.  My suggestion was for templars to be able to review the bank accounts of citizens of a given city and to potentially approach/coerce merchants with said "vast sums of money" at their disposal to consider funding city-based projects or further the plots of others.

Someone tossed out a number of 10,000 and people ran with it like that was in the documentation.

I'd imagine a scenario more like finding a merchant with 25,000 in the bank and asking them to fund a 1,000 - 3,000 coin mission for the city in return for some political/social favor.  As was mentioned before, this stimulates PC-PC interaction in a nice way that involves multiple socioeconomic levels (e.g. nobles need templars need merchants need nobles/templars).  It's not picking on people as much as it is involving them, and providing channels or avenues through which characters can make things happen.

Independents are important, useful, and helpful pieces of the grand puzzle -- they are a necessary layer to providing depth.

That said, don't be so afraid of someone considering unique ways to connect you to someone else.

-LoD

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 03:58:09 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 03:54:39 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 03:53:44 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 01, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

This is a game, meant to be played for fun. Not an economic simulation.

And your fun, rather than the fun of the playerbase as a whole, is the priority for you. We get that. I still call it twinking.

Actually, I agree with Salt Merchant for once. And I don't think it's really conducive to this thread to flame. Please don't.

You can't guarantee those costs you glibly calculated, not taking into account that the sid mines only pay if someone else hasn't got to the mining office first. Or stocked the shop with whatever it is you're trying to sell. I've never had a rich character, other than the Borsail nobles I played once upon a time. My grebbers were always struggling to buy enough to buy a tent before they finally gave up and joined up with someone or died trying to make a few sids. Forget the apartment. I never even got that far.

Edit: Wanted to add that I don't think I'm the only one with this difficulty. I think the Indie types are necessary. I've known a couple who did in fact impact the game world to one extent or another. Frankly this whole thread seems to be inclined to do one thing and one thing only: Make the game harder for those of us who aren't super-good at amassing money. I'd just as soon not have the option of being independent taken away. That's where this is headed.

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 05:08:08 PM
You can't guarantee those costs you glibly calculated, not taking into account that the sid mines only pay if someone else hasn't got to the mining office first. Or stocked the shop with whatever it is you're trying to sell. I've never had a rich character, other than the Borsail nobles I played once upon a time. My grebbers were always struggling to buy enough to buy a tent before they finally gave up and joined up with someone or died trying to make a few sids. Forget the apartment. I never even got that far.

As far as I'm aware, the change to the mining office was made precisely because it was far too easy for players to amass coins. Now, it is still easy for those players who know how to game the system effectively to make a lot of coins on 'sid mining; it's just not easy for the players who get there too late. When it comes to clay foraging or cotton-picking or salt-grebbing, the numbers still apply there as well. There aren't any limits on those activities.

Some players aren't good at learning to game the system in order to amass coins, and it sounds like you're one of those. If that's true, then you're not the problem we're discussing here. I would suggest you go back and read the original post in the thread. The player who posted that is not by any means the only one who has ever figured out how to effectively game the system; heck, -I- can game the system, and I'm generally pretty poor at powerplaying. And there are many other veteran players who know exactly how to set up a new PC and run immediately out and start making wads of cash.

Edited to add: The change that was made to shops, where their goods get sold off to VNPCs over time rather than money only mostly replenishing at reboot, has also made it much easier to make money, IMO. If you know what to sell and where to sell it, making money is very easy.

After having played several independant merchants and grebbers, my impression is that five craft skills provide a majority of the abuse, because of lack of competition, lack of risk, uneven shop access, or very high material investment to profit ratios.  Maybe that would be a better place to target the changes.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 05:15:14 PM

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 05:08:08 PM
You can't guarantee those costs you glibly calculated, not taking into account that the sid mines only pay if someone else hasn't got to the mining office first. Or stocked the shop with whatever it is you're trying to sell. I've never had a rich character, other than the Borsail nobles I played once upon a time. My grebbers were always struggling to buy enough to buy a tent before they finally gave up and joined up with someone or died trying to make a few sids. Forget the apartment. I never even got that far.

As far as I'm aware, the change to the mining office was made precisely because it was far too easy for players to amass coins. Now, it is still easy for those players who know how to game the system effectively to make a lot of coins on 'sid mining; it's just not easy for the players who get there too late. When it comes to clay foraging or cotton-picking or salt-grebbing, the numbers still apply there as well. There aren't any limits on those activities.

Some players aren't good at learning to game the system in order to amass coins, and it sounds like you're one of those. If that's true, then you're not the problem we're discussing here. I would suggest you go back and read the original post in the thread. The player who posted that is not by any means the only one who has ever figured out how to effectively game the system; heck, -I- can game the system, and I'm generally pretty poor at powerplaying. And there are many other veteran players who know exactly how to set up a new PC and run immediately out and start making wads of cash.

One or two players, Gimf. One or two players get there first. Everyone else looses out. And my post was more in answer to the whole rest of the thread, people saying indies add nothing to the game, etc, etc.

Keep in mind not everyone knows how to work the game. How about the newbies? I just don't want to see us messed over because there are some people who take it too far.

Quote from: deviant storm on September 01, 2009, 05:26:42 PM
One or two players, Gimf. One or two players get there first. Everyone else looses out. And my post was more in answer to the whole rest of the thread, people saying indies add nothing to the game, etc, etc.

Keep in mind not everyone knows how to work the game. How about the newbies? I just don't want to see us messed over because there are some people who take it too far.

No one here is advocating for indies or newbies or whoever to get screwed--and I certainly never said that indie wasn't a valid playstyle or that indies didn't have the potential to contribute to the game. But the current state of the game is such that apped leaders do get screwed, because they just cannot compete with the coin that savvy indie players can make. It unbalances the game.

There are coded ways to fix things that would not screw newbies or indies who play within the guidelines of the documentation. For example, craft skills could be fixed; ratios of resource use or cost could be changed; a limit could be put on the obsidian (or salt or wood or whatever) sales of individual PCs per day lest a templar be notified; LoD's suggestion of templars being able to find out who's got a lot of money could be put in. There are so many possible changes that would fix these problems.

If you're not the problem then you're not the problem. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

I don't see anyone recommending anything that even remotely resembles taking things too far (regardless of who is the judge of "too far" this week).

What I see, is that independents *can* (not always do, not always want to, but CAN - meaning - are capable of) make FAR more sids than clanned people who are in positions where their jobs require them to make sids.

I've played both sides. I've played them often and even my rangers tend to be merchants. I've never had any trouble earning sids, AS LONG as I had access to NPC shops. Unfortunately, as an official pc for a gmh, my experience is that the access to NPC shops is limited. When you're a PC in a GMH, you're not -allowed- to sell to the shops your clan owns/operates. You're also limited as to the percentage of profit you're allowed to earn on things your clan sells. You can't just make a 50-sid widget and sell it to Templar HatesMe for 5000 sids. Not even that the templar would pay that much, but you're not *allowed* to charge that much.

As an independent, you're allowed to buy and sell whatever the fuck you want, to whoever's willing to buy it, at whatever price you can scam someone out of, and there ain't nobody can tell you otherwise.

As for the cost of living to Gimf..outdoors people don't count after the first few weeks of existing, because it's assumed that they have the skinning skill and have been making use of it during that first few weeks, and have gotten good enough they can skin their own supper. If they're rangers, they can also find places to get food without having to kill a single critter, OR pay a single sid. So the cost of outdoors people I would say is "on average" lower than your accounting, if you figure that in to the equation.

The problem with an independent merchant with 10,000 sids in the bank that they're sitting on, is their buying POWER. Sids can be power in Armageddon. That merchant might be sitting on it today, but that merchant could very well afford to buy a contract on PeeWee-Di Kurac's head. Independent merchants should certainly be able to amass that kind of sids..no doubt about it, it's just too damned easy to do.

However, Independent merchants should ALSO be easier targets for getting thoroughly stomped into the salt flats if they start showing off their riches in such a way as to make PeeWee-Di wonder why she isn't as rich as Indie is. When some independent fuck starts sauntering around wearing head-to-toe silks and dripping in diamond jewelry, Kadius SHOULD be pissed off. Independent fucks are lower class than Kadians, and they need to remember their place. When they start dressing, adorning themselves, and buying themselves better than their betters, then they SHOULD be worried they're gonna wake up headless the next morning. Buying includes contracts, and gathering groups of employees that PeeWee-di can't hire now, because they're already employed by Indie. When Indie's crappy 250-sid apartment has 4 employees using it as a sparring ring, this is a problem. When Indie's bank account is high enough that they can buy a contract to kill the templar who made them pay extra for their merchant token, that is a problem. When Indie's sids have purchased the favor of three nobles, to the point where those nobles are rejecting business with GMHs in favor of the Indie, it's a problem. GMHs *should* feel free to come down on that shit. Templars *should* feel free to come down on that shit. Nenyuk rental agents *should* feel free to come down on that shit.

But everyone's told to be nice to the indies because they're not really competition? I call foul. In a huge way.

It's an IC problem..and if you don't see that it's an IC problem, then perhaps you are seeing it from the perspective of the problem.

The economy has some problems.  Part of the problem is the crafting code.  Basically creating things foraging, of which there is an infinite supply in the game.  If you have enough time, you can forage and get as much as you want of something, or hunt something to the point you get more than enough (unless a staff member changes the supply, otherwise it is infinite, over time).  This is something that would require a major overhaul, probably a reborn problem to be solved.

But as far as this game goes, I think much of the responsibility rests on the players.  Much like playing any role.  Many other aspects of the game are unbalanced in this way, but people continue to roleplay according to the documentation which is nobles/templars/merchants are generally rich, when in actuality it's usually the other way around.  Why?  Because merchants nobles and templars are held to standards, while independents aren't.

I like the idea of templars being able to find out someone's bank balance.  That would help templars know who they could 'approach', and who they shouldn't waste their time with.  I think that if everyone knew just how many independents got rich and couldn't do anything with all those riches because they are just independents, you'd be surprised.  Imagine being able to look at everyone and see their bank balance (or how much coins they had tucked away), I think everyone would be surprised just how many people horde coins and feign poverty, and just how poor the 'power players' (merchants/templars/nobles) really are.  Personally I think templars should be squeezing independents more, go get the money they need to get things done.

Quote from: Veges on August 26, 2009, 03:02:16 AM
I have a concern regarding the in-game economy and methods pertaining to the acquisition of wealth. Despite what the game's setting and documentation would have me believe, making money has proven to be incredibly easy unless one deliberately refrains from the many opportunities that crop up for one's character. I have found that even the most primitive forms of work, such as scavenging corpses, mining or picking leaves yields an income to rival that of actual jobs, jobs of supposedly high status such as house merchants or various kinds of sergeants and officers. I understand that this used not to be the case and that a multitude of income venues were introduced to the game along the way.

This is a somewhat common gripe among a few players, however it has been discussed extensively. 

Most of the freelance jobs that make a lot of money are somewhat dangerous.  In essence, you can consider these sorts of characters to be gith bait or raider bait.

Also, these jobs are not that easy or lucrative if you take the time to properly role-play out all the steps involved in each task.  Suffice it to say that if you're pulling in too much money at these sorts of jobs, you're either highly talented or else a twink.  For every person who finds it "too easy" to play as an independent character, you have one or two other dudes who are unable to survive on their own and flee to the safety of a clan, to say nothing of the people who enjoy clanned characters for the social aspect.

Additionally, all of the resources that get harvested, towards which you're referring, may seem plentiful at times however when there are swells in the player-base competition for these sorts of resources can become quite fierce.  In the not-so-distant past, some players were able to establish a small-scale monopoly over certain mining operations and effectively muscle-out other players.

Not so easy for them, is it?

If you still aren't challenged, you might have to face the fact that you could be some kind of a keyboard-badassed.  Similarly, some people find Super Mario Brothers, Halo or Guitar Hero to be too easy.  A better description of the problem could be that you're too good. 

Also, you should probably be spending about 2/3 of your character's income on beer or spice.  Or an apartment.  After that there won't really be much left.

Too much has gone before, so I won't bother with quotes:

1 -  (LoD?)Templars looking at bank accounts. The first time I as a character might think it is a lucky guess. Second time I will wonder. By the third time, all my friends and cousins and their friends and cousins will know to open an account under a fake name with Nenyuk.  If I am Nenyuk, I will begin to do something about it too. And what if a southern templar is looking into someone's bank account, but that someone only got money in the north and is in fact a northern spy? So on. Please. Don't do this.

2 - (Lizzie?) Of course each clan has guildlines on how much to charge. I remember selling some noble people a set of something for over 4500. They are worth like 900. Sure, my boss was irritated, then he met the person, and came back and told me he was more irritated that I didn't scam them for more. Of course, the boss might have lied, but the point is, there are exceptions to everything, you just have to know how to go around it without getting into too much trouble. My clanned, Merchant char had over 40k in the bank. (around half are from dead friends, but hey, clannies make friends and live long, so money are made through inddies who die often)

3 - On harvesting sids from inddie by templars. Sure. Go ahead. Do it. If you go overboard, you won't ever find any inddie playing near you. But that's the deal. It will make for much ic fun and conflict. One day, they will gather together and purchase an assassin on you, even more fun!

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 26, 2009, 01:17:33 PM
the most creative of players feel unduly constrained by this aspect of playing a noble. It's extremely frustrating and definitely contributes to the premature storage of many noble and templar PCs.

The said noble/templar needs better minions in this case. Or become better at harvesting potentials. A good aide or servant is not only money saving, but also can create vast amount of sids from bribes. Have several would make the career. Those bribes mostly come from independent merchants or characters. Basically, they sell the noble/templar's favors. They can get things arranged so that plots costs little and people would do it for favors. (or the mere pleasure of rping with such brilliant nobles/templars) At several stages, I had my noble/templar patron not paying my char cos their wage would look a pittance. -_- Mind that I do give them a cut from the bribes.

My point is simply that things should be looked at from a RP enforcement manner rather than giving templars or nobles more coded benefits. I just... shudder to think of nooplars and noobles having such power.

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 02:26:53 AM
1 -  (LoD?)Templars looking at bank accounts. The first time I as a character might think it is a lucky guess. Second time I will wonder. By the third time, all my friends and cousins and their friends and cousins will know to open an account under a fake name with Nenyuk.  If I am Nenyuk, I will begin to do something about it too. And what if a southern templar is looking into someone's bank account, but that someone only got money in the north and is in fact a northern spy? So on. Please. Don't do this.

Why wouldn't Nenyuki records be available to templars of either city-state, and why wouldn't their interests fall to commoners showing inflated or unusual activity.  Are they taking bribes, not what they seem, extremely frugal, brilliant businesspersons, talented thieves or burglars?  The point of having templars be able to view thriving bank accounts would be to promote interaction and make it a little more difficult to simply hoard wealth as a commoner.  PC's might need to learn to keep their assets invested in other things, spend their money more quickly, hide their money in different locations, or subject themselves to the occasional poke or prod from the templarate.

I don't find any of these scenarios to be a "bad thing" for Armageddon.  Redistribution of wealth is always a good thing for the economy, and if templars are encouraging small amounts of these funds to be used for promoting plots, connecting with nobles, or furthering their station, I don't find the increased interaction to be bad for the game either.  Nenyuk has been a safe haven for nearly as long as the game as persisted, and I don't see any logical reasons as to why that is -- templars wouldn't touch bank accounts of organizations large enough that could give Nenyuk pause for holding their coin.

And you may be assuming how much templars would be harassing these players, or how much they would be taking.  I don't really see it as a penalty as much as an opportunity for both sides.  What good are 50,000 coins if they sit in your bank account and disappear when you perish?  I would see the templarate concerning themselves only with the super-wealthy of the independents, and using it mostly as a chance to interact with those PC's and see how they could weave into the stories of the city-state.  These independents who are approached and, ultimately, engaged in some opportunity may end up making political allies, furthering their status, or even finding doors open to them to make even more money than they were beforehand.

I'd like to see more reasoning behind why you wouldn't want to see these things than "Please don't do this."

-LoD

Quote from: LoD on September 16, 2009, 10:18:29 AM

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 02:26:53 AM
1 -  (LoD?)Templars looking at bank accounts. The first time I as a character might think it is a lucky guess. Second time I will wonder. By the third time, all my friends and cousins and their friends and cousins will know to open an account under a fake name with Nenyuk.  If I am Nenyuk, I will begin to do something about it too. And what if a southern templar is looking into someone's bank account, but that someone only got money in the north and is in fact a northern spy? So on. Please. Don't do this.

Why wouldn't Nenyuki records be available to templars of either city-state, and why wouldn't their interests fall to commoners showing inflated or unusual activity.  Are they taking bribes, not what they seem, extremely frugal, brilliant businesspersons, talented thieves or burglars?  The point of having templars be able to view thriving bank accounts would be to promote interaction and make it a little more difficult to simply hoard wealth as a commoner.  PC's might need to learn to keep their assets invested in other things, spend their money more quickly, hide their money in different locations, or subject themselves to the occasional poke or prod from the templarate.

I don't find any of these scenarios to be a "bad thing" for Armageddon.  Redistribution of wealth is always a good thing for the economy, and if templars are encouraging small amounts of these funds to be used for promoting plots, connecting with nobles, or furthering their station, I don't find the increased interaction to be bad for the game either.  Nenyuk has been a safe haven for nearly as long as the game as persisted, and I don't see any logical reasons as to why that is -- templars wouldn't touch bank accounts of organizations large enough that could give Nenyuk pause for holding their coin.

And you may be assuming how much templars would be harassing these players, or how much they would be taking.  I don't really see it as a penalty as much as an opportunity for both sides.  What good are 50,000 coins if they sit in your bank account and disappear when you perish?  I would see the templarate concerning themselves only with the super-wealthy of the independents, and using it mostly as a chance to interact with those PC's and see how they could weave into the stories of the city-state.  These independents who are approached and, ultimately, engaged in some opportunity may end up making political allies, furthering their status, or even finding doors open to them to make even more money than they were beforehand.

I'd like to see more reasoning behind why you wouldn't want to see these things than "Please don't do this."

-LoD

I won't hope to be half as eloquent. But here is my simple reasoning and speculations. They probably don't apply to half the playbase, and no research is involved. Simple personal opinions.

- IC Trust and Nenyuk. The realism of the current House Nenyuk's miraculous banking system aside, any banking system operates on trust, when that goes, the system will fail. Templars can dig into existing organization bank accounts already. But to do it on an individual basis is another matter. Any tribal worthy of their salt would know not to trust the bank. However, they have their little tents or wherever to keep their stashes, or simply carry the sids in their packs. For the rest of us without clan compounds, I know I would never trust the bank if this new coded power comes into being. Get a character with haggle skill, and I will convert all my sids into valuable goods instead and bribe the local crimelord rather than dealing with nooplars. (ivory rings are light to carry) I suppose it does create rp. Just not the kind you hope for.

- OOC Trust and Templars. This is an ooc problem I have. This opinion is solely of my own and in no way reflect the playerbase in general or staffs' judgments. Now. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding. After too much unpleasant encounters, I try my damnest to avoid people who do unrealistic things with no regard for consequences. (e.g. Hi noble, sure I will go kill the bard over there who might have insulted your aide for you. So what if he is the lover of Lord Oash and patroned by the Lady Valika, he is just a commoner, I am a templar!)

- Penalty vs opportunity. I do not mind penalty. I can stand pain. Hell, I had my share of torture and rape and interrogation and assassination rp. Some made me cry. When my characters die, they inevitably leave tons of shit behind that would number in six digits apartments, never mind the bank accounts. But I hate constant harrassment. I am not sure of others. But being independent character does not mean I am plotless. I want to rp my own shit, not to be harrassed for sids every single time I log on. That can pretty much ensure my character gets the next place in the storage request line. It is easy to engage in opportunities that may end up making political allies, furthering status, finding doors open to make even more money before hand without this added code power to the templar. I don't want some templar I never heard before finding my character's mind one day asking for a meeting when I have 100 in my bank. Maybe templars can only access the list of people who have over 10k in their bank account? Although if that is the case, my account would be permanently at 9,999 sids. I don't like twinkage, and I will feel guilty about doing this. I guess my account will be at 9k.

- Little bits of other problems. I do not like templars have this much coherent information at their disposal. If this happens, I would ask to be able to open bank accounts under multiple names. It is unlikely to happen. I am sure I can live with the change and find other ways. Also, does the bank list has my character's real name, or full sdesc? That enters an entirely different discussion.

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 10:58:44 AM
- IC Trust and Nenyuk. For the rest of us without clan compounds, I know I would never trust the bank if this new coded power comes into being. Get a character with haggle skill, and I will convert all my sids into valuable goods instead and bribe the local crimelord rather than dealing with nooplars. (ivory rings are light to carry) I suppose it does create rp. Just not the kind you hope for.

Increased interaction converting sid into commodities, bribing local crimelords, or even bribing local templarate to avoid this type of scrutiny upon one's activities sounds like just the type of RP we could hope for, especially when the alternative is nothing.  While I agree that banks operate on trust, we're talking about a very small section of the populace -- individuals who are likely not politically protected or affiliated that have a bank account in excess of ~20,000 coins.  I just don't see it impacting enough of the populace to cause a "run on the banks" or make Joe Commoner reconsider where he keeps his savings.

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 10:58:44 AM
- OOC Trust and Templars. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding.

I don't think there's much to be done here that isn't already (hopefully) happening as much as possible.  Most templars already have complete control over the life of your PC, so I guess I just don't see them approaching you about a bloated bank account as being all that bothersome -- especially when it could lead to more positive forms of interaction.

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 10:58:44 AM
- Penalty vs opportunity. I do not mind penalty. I can stand pain. But I hate constant harassment. I am not sure of others. But being independent character does not mean I am plotless. I want to rp my own shit, not to be harassed for sids every single time I log on. That can pretty much ensure my character gets the next place in the storage request line.

This is where I think there will be the assumption that, because your character is wealthy, you will be harassed by the templarate every single playing session.  I definitely don't think that's the intention of making this type of change.  And while I certainly can't guarantee that it wouldn't somehow result in frequent harassment, it seems likely that (at any given time) you'd only have to deal with 1-2 PC templars in a city-state, and I would hope that you would only have to deal with them from time to time.

As I mentioned before, I don't see them going after people with 2,000, 5,000, or 10,000 in their banks -- but more the 20,000+ crowd.  That's whom I would be going after if I were a templar, because not only do they have enough money to spare a couple thousand for the good of the Highlord, they also have obviously developed the ability to earn such high amounts of coin and I doubt it would be long before they replenished their supply.

It also adds another layer of benefit/protection PC's would enjoy in the employ of a Great Merchant House.  If being in Kadius, Kurac, or Salarr bought you a hefty degree of immunity from such approaches, it might better reflect the social disadvantages and vulnerabilities an independent would probably feel operating amidst the "big boys".

I really appreciate you posting your concerns, though, because I do think it's extremely important that something like this wouldn't ruin people's fun or turn them away from the game.  I don't necessarily think it would, but it's always best to investigate multiple angles.

-LoD

I am doing away with quotes. I am quite bad at those.

- My fear is that templars get bored. Bring up the list. Contact people one by one.

- Most templars don't have complete control over the life of my PC. Not when they do not know my PC exist. Having the List might change it. I am sure many people know how to avoid templars. If all goes to moot, play a tribal.

- There are 2- 4 templars in the game. From experience, most characters in noble/templar roles can get bored easily. Since their plots consist mainly of catch this guy. Fetch that food. Find this merchant. Get that recruit. I really do fear harassment.

- It is not a matter of sids. When I have so much sids, I randomly give out sids and invest in others on a regular basis. I dealt with high politics, it is fun rp. But sometimes I really do enjoy no politics roles. When you earn 1000 sids a irl month, after half a year, no one is going to believe you only have 9k in the bank. Even if the templar can only see 9k in the bank. They will assume you are hoarding wealth. If you are not hoarding wealth, well, tough, you are now templar's sid farm. Start making sids! You are obviously capable of it, you just are too lazy to do it! Congratulations. What about you don't want to rp with me? Too late! Tag.


.....

The bottom line: why give templars more powers? If they are good templars, or even average, moderately suited for their role, they really do not need this feature. Independent PCs will flock to them of their own will and donate sids like it is so much sands. I have seen this.

If they are sucky templars. Then please, no. Get the fuck away from me. I will go on break for another 6 months and come back when the templar has stored. If the templar is not stored, I can go away for another 6 months.

I guess I feel very strongly about this issue. Privacy!

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 02:26:53 AMTemplars can dig into existing organization bank accounts already. But to do it on an individual basis is another matter.

Really? I don't think so. It seems that both sides of the fence on this will agree that the economy is related to Templars. If the hypothetical indy merchant did have ten large in their bank account per say, they would be foolish -not- to bribe off Templars/soldiers/anyone with power. However, I don't really think Templars should have the power to check in on bank accounts. Maybe if there was a Nenyuki PC around... :(

Quote- OOC Trust and Templars. This is an ooc problem I have. This opinion is solely of my own and in no way reflect the playerbase in general or staffs' judgments. Now. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding. After too much unpleasant encounters, I try my damnest to avoid people who do unrealistic things with no regard for consequences. (e.g. Hi noble, sure I will go kill the bard over there who might have insulted your aide for you. So what if he is the lover of Lord Oash and patroned by the Lady Valika, he is just a commoner, I am a templar!)

Plots span off trust between players, and if what's been said in this thread is true, plots are also created by sid. Who gets the sid? Usually nobles, wealthy GMHers, and independents who have some means to expand their bank accounts. All the other players in the cities have to get their obsidian from one of these groups or one of the exception clans. As the obsidian sprinkles down the power tree into the Templar's pockets, the Bynner's, hunter's, commoner's, thieves, assassins and other useful occupations, plots are created.

I think most players aren't aware of how useful obsidian is. You have no idea how far a few small bribes can go. My motto? When in doubt, throw some sid at it.

Quote from: Rhyden on September 16, 2009, 11:44:57 AM

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 02:26:53 AMTemplars can dig into existing organization bank accounts already. But to do it on an individual basis is another matter.

Really? I don't think so. It seems that both sides of the fence on this will agree that the economy is related to Templars. If the hypothetical indy merchant did have ten large in their bank account per say, they would be foolish -not- to bribe off Templars/soldiers/anyone with power. However, I don't really think Templars should have the power to check in on bank accounts. Maybe if there was a Nenyuki PC around... :(

Quote- OOC Trust and Templars. This is an ooc problem I have. This opinion is solely of my own and in no way reflect the playerbase in general or staffs' judgments. Now. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding. After too much unpleasant encounters, I try my damnest to avoid people who do unrealistic things with no regard for consequences. (e.g. Hi noble, sure I will go kill the bard over there who might have insulted your aide for you. So what if he is the lover of Lord Oash and patroned by the Lady Valika, he is just a commoner, I am a templar!)

Plots span off trust between players, and if what's been said in this thread is true, plots are also created by sid. Who gets the sid? Usually nobles, wealthy GMHers, and independents who have some means to expand their bank accounts. All the other players in the cities have to get their obsidian from one of these groups or one of the exception clans. As the obsidian sprinkles down the power tree into the Templar's pockets, the Bynner's, hunter's, commoner's, thieves, assassins and other useful occupations, plots are created.

I think most players aren't aware of how useful obsidian is. You have no idea how far a few small bribes can go. My motto? When in doubt, throw some sid at it.

No really. If you want to do fancy stuffs, rp it out and check with staffs. Staffs are usually fanastic with giving you assistance that are realistic to your situation. I won't bring up specific examples in case of ic restrictions.

Sids do not always start plots. The plots that are started by plots are... unless you refer to those 10k+ bigger plots. Sids are only important when you are new. After a certain stage, the currency of the game is no longer sids. Sids do not get you everything. You can pay 20k to kill someone, guess what? The crimelord will not do it for you. (Yup it happened before) You can pay 15k bounty on someone, but guess what noble? No one will pick it up. Actually, they will take your sids like you are a sucker and not do it.

Most players have no idea how suck it is to use sids to bribe. In the Tuluki language, it is so unsophisticated.

But I derail. I simply do not agree on using this method to create rp. I respect LoD and Rhyden and others' arguments. I agree with these points. I, however, do not think the pro is worth the con. It will automatically undermine my trust in the templar's player and lower my expectation for said templar. If a templar needs to stoop to such coded methods in order to find which inddie to get bribes from and get things done, he is hardly going to be impressive.

If you want to find out who is rich, no automatic bank statement checking. Go hire a competent spy or three and let them investigate. Invest 500 in a good spy and you might get a return of 2000 in bribes. Good business.

Edit: Just bolded stuffs so Gim can read it better. I never said bribe is bad. Nor did I said giving templar power is bad. But there is a better method. I also don't know where Gim has been playing. :P Bribes come and go so often. Even a drink at the bar is a small bribe for the militia. My personal record is 5k in one day sitting at the tavern for my templar. I had so much free time then. The best bribes are not sids. Give them what they want, like, need or achieve.

Quote from: Melody on September 16, 2009, 11:56:21 AM
Most players have no idea how suck it is to use sids to bribe. In the Tuluki language, it is so unsophisticated.

This is completely untrue. The docs say bribery is the way of getting business done, in both cities; and having played politics in both cities, I've never seen a bribe go unappreciated. There are ways of bribing that would be seen as unsophisticated, but the bribe itself? Never.

Sadly, despite playing extensively in political and military roles and having plenty of power and status, I think I was only ever freely bribed like once or twice.

Edit: NM.

Bribing Templars in Tuluk is a little different.  Also calling it a donation instead ofa  bribe is probably best.  You're still giving them money, and they're still getting the money.  However what your money buys you is up to the templar, but that's always the case.

Quote from: LoD on September 16, 2009, 11:21:43 AM
It also adds another layer of benefit/protection PC's would enjoy in the employ of a Great Merchant House.  If being in Kadius, Kurac, or Salarr bought you a hefty degree of immunity from such approaches, it might better reflect the social disadvantages and vulnerabilities an independent would probably feel operating amidst the "big boys".

IF being the operative word. My general experience with house merchant PCs is that every time I run into a templar, I get a "I want these six custom items within one week and for every late day I will torture one of your employees to death" speech. My experience has always been that nobles and templars don't give a fuck about merchant house status, and merchant house staffers will generally not do anything to discourage this behavior. And yeah, it always ends up being about custom items, which makes it incredibly infuriating. Go ahead, Lord Hardnose! Fuck up my clan because I have no way of getting around the OOC custom-item rules!

Quote from: jstorrie on September 16, 2009, 03:28:55 PM

Quote from: LoD on September 16, 2009, 11:21:43 AM
It also adds another layer of benefit/protection PC's would enjoy in the employ of a Great Merchant House.  If being in Kadius, Kurac, or Salarr bought you a hefty degree of immunity from such approaches, it might better reflect the social disadvantages and vulnerabilities an independent would probably feel operating amidst the "big boys".

IF being the operative word. My general experience with house merchant PCs is that every time I run into a templar, I get a "I want these six custom items within one week and for every late day I will torture one of your employees to death" speech. My experience has always been that nobles and templars don't give a fuck about merchant house status, and merchant house staffers will generally not do anything to discourage this behavior. And yeah, it always ends up being about custom items, which makes it incredibly infuriating. Go ahead, Lord Hardnose! Fuck up my clan because I have no way of getting around the OOC custom-item rules!

The only solution is to kill all of your employees to leave them no one to torture.

I suspect that was a tongue-in-cheek answer, but regardless, I wouldn't consider that option as conducive to continued good business.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 16, 2009, 12:35:02 PM
This is completely untrue. The docs say bribery is the way of getting business done, in both cities; and having played politics in both cities, I've never seen a bribe go unappreciated. There are ways of bribing that would be seen as unsophisticated, but the bribe itself? Never.

I gotta tell you though. It is very common for coin bribe to go unappreciated. At a particular moment it is a sign of respect, which is fine and dandy. But as the Templar matures and begins to accumilate bribe money, they begin to require it less and less. Up until a moment, when telling a good joke is or a 200 sid teapot is more useful then a 5k bribe. All this talk about Templars seeing the bank accounts and stuff. Meh. If a Templar 'wanted' to, he can find anyone's account by talking to a Nenyak's clerk via staff animation. Leave at that.

What exactly is a problem with people who amassed great wealth in their bank accounts ? I mean, they are doing it for 'some' reason, right? There 'are' open to some kind of plots, the odds are high that you simply do not 'know' what plots are they.

There are enough sdesc/name sniffing going on, I would prefer not to instill any kind of extra code that allows more of the same kind. If a PC is notable and known enough and a templar took interest, they might check him out. But that will probably involve 'bribing' the clerk themselves. Clerk says to Lord Templar "Oh yes, we have the records, it will take us some time to dig them up. Come back in a ... month or ...ten".

.

Quote from: Nyr on September 16, 2009, 03:33:36 PM
The only solution is to kill all of your employees to leave them no one to torture.

You know how I roll, homie.

Quote from: Greve on September 16, 2009, 04:37:43 PM
- Lack of PC-driven economy. Crafting seems to be at an all time low as there is no need for it unless you can or wish to create something that players cannot get elsewhere. The fact that the best equipment is obtained exclusively by having an admin load it up in a merchant house's storage, rather than seeking out someone who can craft, only adds to this problem.

The Akai Sjir called. They want to sell you some awesome granite warhammers and stone-plated waterpacks.

Clearly, the only solution is to make joining the T'zai Byn mandatory for all indies.

That's true poverty.

Greve's points about what the ease of grinding coin does to the economy in general are well-articulated.

If I was going to redesign the economy, I think I would make it so that grindy ways of making money would only ever equate to basic survival; and that the real money would flow from non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money. It would seem fitting to me that our "PCs who are the exceptions in the VNPC world" should, if they want to amass coin, have to make those coins in exceptional ways.

What would non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money look like?

-- True master crafting of high-level items and custom orders. I think part of the reason we don't see a lot of PCs going for mastercrafting status is because in order to be balanced with the economy, a custom item would have to cost the ordering PC around $20k to make sense. Only indies can afford a $20k custom item right now. Master crafters right now can make far more money from "craft silk into silk thingy" than they can from catering to orders. And actually playing a crafter PC in a GMH is often boring as hell.

-- Entertainment event production. If you create fun for PCs, you make good money. (Currently event production is done for free or even at cost to the organizers, for the most part--probably why it's not done as frequently as it could be, especially in Allanak.) Maybe part of your pay comes from PCs and part of it comes from VNPCs (since if you cut off the flow of grind money, money actually has to come into the game from somewhere).

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or maybe even from NPCs to Acquire Legendary Item; maybe that's a particular animal pelt, or a very rare (but findable) gem, or a tamed rare animal, or an item with historical value, or a book, etc. Right now, this kind of quest is the purview of organizations; but if indies want to make the coins and take the risk, maybe they should be the ones organizing and going instead.

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or even from NPCs to Do Legendary Thing; such as lead an army to defeat X, or explore all of a region and map it, or find a special place. Perhaps if there are costs incurred along the way, the sponsor pays them, but then the indie/employee gets a huge bonus at the end.

Those are just some ideas for what switching the economic emphasis toward the non-grindy would look like.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 16, 2009, 05:14:41 PM
Greve's points about what the ease of grinding coin does to the economy in general are well-articulated.

If I was going to redesign the economy, I think I would make it so that grindy ways of making money would only ever equate to basic survival; and that the real money would flow from non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money. It would seem fitting to me that our "PCs who are the exceptions in the VNPC world" should, if they want to amass coin, have to make those coins in exceptional ways.

What would non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money look like?

-- True master crafting of high-level items and custom orders. I think part of the reason we don't see a lot of PCs going for mastercrafting status is because in order to be balanced with the economy, a custom item would have to cost the ordering PC around $20k to make sense. Only indies can afford a $20k custom item right now. Master crafters right now can make far more money from "craft silk into silk thingy" than they can from catering to orders. And actually playing a crafter PC in a GMH is often boring as hell.

-- Entertainment event production. If you create fun for PCs, you make good money. (Currently event production is done for free or even at cost to the organizers, for the most part--probably why it's not done as frequently as it could be, especially in Allanak.) Maybe part of your pay comes from PCs and part of it comes from VNPCs (since if you cut off the flow of grind money, money actually has to come into the game from somewhere).

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or maybe even from NPCs to Acquire Legendary Item; maybe that's a particular animal pelt, or a very rare (but findable) gem, or a tamed rare animal, or an item with historical value, or a book, etc. Right now, this kind of quest is the purview of organizations; but if indies want to make the coins and take the risk, maybe they should be the ones organizing and going instead.

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or even from NPCs to Do Legendary Thing; such as lead an army to defeat X, or explore all of a region and map it, or find a special place. Perhaps if there are costs incurred along the way, the sponsor pays them, but then the indie/employee gets a huge bonus at the end.

Those are just some ideas for what switching the economic emphasis toward the non-grindy would look like.

I think that being able to mine a deposit of obsidian, then kill and skin an insect bigger than you are, by yourself in the same day, is a lot more exceptional in the Zalanthan environment, then putting on some kind of entertainment service like dancing or singing...

And considering the number of PCs that have been allowed to do 'Legendary' things (like what you list in your last two examples) in the last 4-5 years...I think that's a pretty damn unrealistic barometer. Lead an army? Explore a new region? Having the opportunity to do that is a rare privilege, not something to shoot for as an obsidian making venture.

Your other two examples are craft-whoring and bard-whoring, which is perhaps unsurprising. I think I prefer scrab-whoring. A lot more people die scrab-whoring, and assume actual real risk, (and feel free to replace with 'scrab' with your local favorite flora or fauna), then tavern-sitting. It's way easier to make sids craft-whoring and bard-whoring already, if you find a patron that can withstand emoted singing.

And I think generally, the people that are getting richest, aren't the indies. They /are/ part of the noble houses or GMHs, and making use of all that free food, water and storage, not to mention other advantages, to build upon.

It's comparatively the rare indie, and the even rarer indie hunter that manages to accumulate truly ridiculous sums without eventually winning the Grey Hunt or dying. And if they win the Grey Hunt, they'll store sooner than later anyways.

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 05:33:27 PM
It's comparatively the rare indie, and the even rarer indie hunter that manages to accumulate truly ridiculous sums without eventually winning the Grey Hunt or dying. And if they win the Grey Hunt, they'll store sooner than later anyways.

Quote from: Myrdryn on September 08, 2009, 07:17:15 PM
I think that if everyone knew just how many independents got rich and couldn't do anything with all those riches because they are just independents, you'd be surprised.  Imagine being able to look at everyone and see their bank balance (or how much coins they had tucked away), I think everyone would be surprised just how many people horde coins and feign poverty, and just how poor the 'power players' (merchants/templars/nobles) really are.

I'm more inclined to believe Myrdryn's assessment of the issue since he's, like, in a position to actually know what he's talking about.

Also, your characterization of some aspects of the game as "bard-whoring" and "craft-whoring" are ridiculous, as well as unhelpful to the discussion. Because it appears you missed it, I am in favor of taking out or vastly reducing all the grindy ways of making coins--hunting, mining, foraging, AND crafting. It's not about whether I or anyone else likes certain of those activities more than others of them; it's about the fact that those activities currently have a hugely skewing effect on the economy.

I ... understand many of the Greve's points.


How about this. Different types of coin.

Obsidian coins that are rough and chipped is what most shopkeepers pay out to grebbers. They can buy low to medium quality goods, food, drinks, and such similar things. Enough to keep you well fed and in reasonable state.


Refined obsidian coin. Crafted specifically by Nenyak under supervision of the Templarate, their outlet is mostly the Templarate and Noble houses (given in stipends). With Merchant Houses having a smaller income, mainly due to trades with those very Highborn. The clan pay can come in a portion of that and a portion of this. The high quality goods and pretty much anything that is the best and rare, or just above average is traded primarily in 'those' types of coins.

Indies and criminal organizations can figure out their 'own' way of procuring the refined ones. From trading 20 to 1, to ... well  ... whatever, they're an ingenius bunch they'll figure it out.

I think the moral of the story is that we all enjoy the game for different reasons, and trying to shoehorn the rest of the populace into one set of reasons is a lost cause. It has a little something for every play style out there, and I like it that way.

Could things be improved? Sure. Do we need a radical change or to do away with independent sources of income? Nah.

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 05:33:27 PMIt's way easier to make sids craft-whoring and bard-whoring already, if you find a patron that can withstand emoted singing.

??? It's easier to make sids as a bard than as a grebber/hunter? You must be joking.

Dar, that was actually awfully clever. This could be the first suggestion I have ever seen that even sounds right.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 16, 2009, 05:44:05 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 05:33:27 PM
It's comparatively the rare indie, and the even rarer indie hunter that manages to accumulate truly ridiculous sums without eventually winning the Grey Hunt or dying. And if they win the Grey Hunt, they'll store sooner than later anyways.

Quote from: Myrdryn on September 08, 2009, 07:17:15 PM
I think that if everyone knew just how many independents got rich and couldn't do anything with all those riches because they are just independents, you'd be surprised.  Imagine being able to look at everyone and see their bank balance (or how much coins they had tucked away), I think everyone would be surprised just how many people horde coins and feign poverty, and just how poor the 'power players' (merchants/templars/nobles) really are.

I'm more inclined to believe Myrdryn's assessment of the issue since he's, like, in a position to actually know what he's talking about.

Also, your characterization of some aspects of the game as "bard-whoring" and "craft-whoring" are ridiculous, as well as unhelpful to the discussion. Because it appears you missed it, I am in favor of taking out or vastly reducing all the grindy ways of making coins--hunting, mining, foraging, AND crafting. It's not about whether I or anyone else likes certain of those activities more than others of them; it's about the fact that those activities currently have a hugely skewing effect on the economy.

No coins from hunting, mining, foraging or crafting? The only people that get rich are those which somehow manage to be showered with the privilege of leading armies or exploring new areas?  No doubt, those who first proved their rping chops by being exceptional emoters of singing and dancing, which is the other example of an 'acceptable' way to earn sids.

So playing a bard is the prime moneymaking venture in the Gimfageddon universe...but going out and bringing down a creature twice your size, then skin it, and maybe, fashion the hides or bones into some useful piece of equipment and sell it...should be reduced to subsistence existence. Because living by the sword outside the city walls is just a bunch of twinky, economy skewing crap, right?

Yeah. And my opinion is unhelpful...

In any case, those indies that do manage to survive and thrive, do tend to come to staff's attention. But a great many just go through, do the best they can, and die. I doubt it was Myrdryn's intent to suggest that half of all the dusty hunters you see are amassing vast sums, doing all that twinky hunting, skinning and foraging. Anyhow, I don't need any staffer's offhanded comment to validate my own thoughts on the matter, since I've played long enough to see just how often non-noble/templar/GMH affiliated indie hunters actually come around or last.

I actually think Dar's idea is really interesting, too. Make all the basics of the game--basic food, water, armor, weapons, mounts, rentals--procurable by "common coin." Make anything and everything above that level, including rentals, expensive stuff at the shops, all ordered-from-merchant-PC stuff--procurable only by "king's coin." Grebbers could greb unlimitedly and it wouldn't affect the upper-tier economy at all; if they wanted to play in the upper-tier economy, they'd actually have to participate in it by non-grebbing means.

Quote from: flurry on September 16, 2009, 05:48:00 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 05:33:27 PMIt's way easier to make sids craft-whoring and bard-whoring already, if you find a patron that can withstand emoted singing.

??? It's easier to make sids as a bard than as a grebber/hunter? You must be joking.

Depends if you find a patron or not. But I've seen many people more or less come out of chargen and segue into extremely comfortable, tavern-sitting roles, just by crossing paths with a noble or GMH head. And that bard pc will probably survive and thrive just fine until they die.

Perhaps it's not way easier, but the risk/threat factor must be taken into account. Point is...It's a sure thing, unless your city-stage is going through a severe drought of flunky-wanting patrons.

And I couldn't agree more with Greve's reasons why unrealistic sid hoarding is a problem. I can recall a few situations where grebbers put themselves so far beyond being bribed it was genuinely ridiculous.

To me, it undermines the whole idea of the theme of struggling for resources when members of the laboring class are spending thousands of coins every time they turn around, and still having plenty to spare.

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 05:56:58 PM
Depends if you find a patron or not. But I've seen many people more or less come out of chargen and segue into extremely comfortable, tavern-sitting roles, just by crossing paths with a noble or GMH head. And that bard pc will probably survive and thrive just fine until they die.

I don't know; maybe your experiences playing bards (if you have) were different than mine, but a noble patron is hardly going to shower anyone with coins that they don't have in the first place. There's a big difference between tavern sitting in a nice outfit and actually making money.

Ironically, the way the game is played, I think the ideal patron for a bard would be a grebber.

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 05:54:28 PM
No coins from hunting, mining, foraging or crafting? The only people that get rich are those which somehow manage to be showered with the privilege of leading armies or exploring new areas?  No doubt, those who first proved their rping chops by being exceptional emoters of singing and dancing, which is the other example of an 'acceptable' way to earn sids.

So playing a bard is the prime moneymaking venture in the Gimfageddon universe...but going out and bringing down a creature twice your size, then skin it, and maybe, fashion the hides or bones into some useful piece of equipment and sell it...should be reduced to subsistence existence. Because living by the sword outside the city walls is just a bunch of twinky, economy skewing crap, right?

I do not know what the fuck your problem is with me, dude. For the record, my primary sources of coin when I've played a bard have been crafting and burglary--not patrons or money from donations, by any means. And, the first bard I played (who was socially successful and all that) died in a hunting accident because I was trying to scrape up enough coins for water and food. You have a really weird perception of how things actually work for bardic PCs, and you should go back to the IM chatroom with your badmouthing me rather than bringing it here.

Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

Remember, 95% of all those 'badasses' end up getting folded into one organization or another. I can really only think of a handful that managed not to, and usually, they were trying to recreate the good old days by building up their own merc company or hunting group, like used to be encouraged and lauded way back when. VERY few just continue on, being a loner, aimless superhunter without meeting a lonely, aimless death without you ever hearing about them.

There are huge advantages to joining an org. Safe storage is an important thing to a lot of those 'twinky hoarders'. And I think those trying to form their own independent companies should be admired. It's harder than it looks.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 16, 2009, 06:05:16 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 05:54:28 PM
No coins from hunting, mining, foraging or crafting? The only people that get rich are those which somehow manage to be showered with the privilege of leading armies or exploring new areas?  No doubt, those who first proved their rping chops by being exceptional emoters of singing and dancing, which is the other example of an 'acceptable' way to earn sids.

So playing a bard is the prime moneymaking venture in the Gimfageddon universe...but going out and bringing down a creature twice your size, then skin it, and maybe, fashion the hides or bones into some useful piece of equipment and sell it...should be reduced to subsistence existence. Because living by the sword outside the city walls is just a bunch of twinky, economy skewing crap, right?

I do not know what the fuck your problem is with me, dude. For the record, my primary sources of coin when I've played a bard have been crafting and burglary--not patrons or money from donations, by any means. And, the first bard I played (who was socially successful and all that) died in a hunting accident because I was trying to scrape up enough coins for water and food. You have a really weird perception of how things actually work for bardic PCs, and you should go back to the IM chatroom with your badmouthing me rather than bringing it here.

lol. I think you're getting a bit too defensive, and too personal dear. I was merely reacting to your suggestion to reduce all activity that isn't part of an RPT or entertainment emoting to subsistence level. And there's no Gimf-bashing IM chatrooms to hang out in that I know of. If there are, someone should PM and set me up.

So chill out.

One of the things that I think I'd like to point out is that nobody (at least, no one who thinks about it for 4 seconds) thinks that indies getting money is wrong, or twinky. Some of us really do wanna tavern sit or whatever, but lots of us just wanna run around, kill things, explore, gain skills, etc, in an RP enforced environment, without the hassle of clanship. We like the grind, but we like it better when there's RP to be had alongside it. And coin naturally comes with that grind, and it should.

And that's fine, actually.

But there really should be a ceiling on an independent's success, and it shouldn't be an insurmountable one, but there should be a ceiling, and it ought to be pretty low. To overcome it, you should have to work very hard at it, and suffer along the way.

I think the dual coin system really addresses this concept, and it does so without being unrealistic, too. It also enforces the concept of the poor man and the rich man, which is pretty much what Zalanthas revolves around. If you need High Coin to buy that awesome sword, all of the Low Coin in the world won't help you get there. You'll have to manage another way to get it, through trade or favor or whatever. Meanwhile, you can still run your independent merchant clan, or your mercenary guild, or your band of thieves just fine, because you have coin to pay them for food, lodging, animals, common armors and weapons, etc.

Yeh, I really like the idea of the dual coin system. A lot.

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 06:06:42 PM
Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

...what? This in no way would fit with the game's documentation or the world in general. You've read the docs, right?

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 06:09:34 PM
I was merely reacting to your suggestion to reduce all activity that isn't part of an RPT or entertainment emoting to subsistence level.

Oh, I see you didn't read my post either. I guess you just don't read.

Knock it off, you two.

Heh.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 16, 2009, 06:13:12 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 06:06:42 PM
Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

...what? This in no way would fit with the game's documentation or the world in general. You've read the docs, right?

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 06:09:34 PM
I was merely reacting to your suggestion to reduce all activity that isn't part of an RPT or entertainment emoting to subsistence level.

Oh, I see you didn't read my post either. I guess you just don't read.

I honestly apologize if I wrote something that you took as personal. I also apologize if my humble reading comprehension was not up to par, since your original post seemed pretty straightforward to me. I have no problem saying sorry, cause whatever contempt I might feel is directed towards your ideas, not you. And if you feel otherwise, or if I misinterpreted your vision, then hell, my bad, right?

But I've been playing off and on, (admittedly, more off than on) since around 2000, and I'm honestly curious as to how this statement contradicts the docs:

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 06:06:42 PM
Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

If anything, surviving long enough to grow powerful and well connected enough to where you can start playing hardball with those city-slicker bastards, carving out your own sphere of influence by the strength of your sword arm, was once a cherished staple of the Armageddon experience.

I don't think those rare few that manage to make it entirely independent, surviving, killing and triumphing for over 50 days of playing time outside the walls are expected to kowtow to anyone who tosses a few small sid in their direction.

In any case, as most people except those in this thread apparently know, the vast majority of long-lived warrior/ranger/hunter sorts, are already working for one clan or another, and the few that don't, typically tried and failed to create their own merc or hunting guild, as in the old days.

But if I'm mistaken, I'm very much interested to learn how it really is. And again, I'm sorry if anything I write strikes you as personally directed. It's not.

Quote from: Clearsighted on September 16, 2009, 06:42:40 PM
stuff

OK. Apology accepted or miscommunication over or whatever. Cool.

Vision: Let me re-articulate. The details aren't really important. What I'm saying is: Make the grindy parts of the game lead to competent subsistence living (the ability to buy food, water, basic apartment, basic equipment, spice), but when PCs have moved beyond the need to grind because they are now in the 10 to 20 to 50 to 100 day range and are uber skilled and badass or whatever--then change their method of acquiring more toward the non-grindy. If you're playing a badass warrior who can kill badass critters, then, let's reward you for the ability to do that, beyond the simple fact that you might bring those pelts home. Let's give you unique, interesting, non-grindy opportunities (quests, mansa would call them) to make money. Let's take you off the grind because you simply have more interesting, more rewarding things to do.

The part of your statements that I meant was out of sync with the docs is the idea of bribing newish warriors and rangers. That just doesn't make sense. Bribes are what you give to people who potentially have power over your PC.

I think you noted previously that there isn't typically, now, support for indie PCs who want to do legendary things rather than grinding; and I agree with you, there hasn't been. I think there could be, in theory, though--especially with the recent staff changes in the "choose your own adventure" direction.

I'm wondering if something as simple as having every item in the game be craftable, coupled with REALLY lowering the worth of all raw material goods, would make a dent in moving the economy back in the right direction.

I get where Clearsighted is coming from. I play hunters all the time, and really enjoy the respect that comes along with having a PC who is able to down salt worms, mek, bahamet, kryl, and Muk only knows what else when he goes out hunting.

I like being given respect for those abilities, and I like being noticed by the templar and nobles who want to use my character for their own selfish purposes. It's a lot of fun, and it happens in game all the time, already. People do try bribing those 14-15 day rangers and warriors. I know because it happens to my PC all the time. He gets hit up for favors constantly and it often brings with it a ton of great PC to PC interaction.

But what I wish was different ... was the fact that when these PC's (nobles, templar, and commoners alike) come to my PC asking for favors; they honestly never have anything to bring to the table; and I only ever end up doing the favors because I'm bored OOC'ly and want to feel like my PC is up to something other than just skill grinding.

I almost want to laugh when a noble asks my character to go bring them some rare pelt, gland, skull, or whatever ... and has like 200 coins to "sweeten the deal". I want to laugh ... except I know that to that poor noble PC, that's a lot of money.

And it's not even like I twink out on hunting either. One doesn't have to, and there is rarely even a point in doing so since the shops have limits on how much of something they'll buy ... and now you can't store it on your balcony for a rainy day  ;).

But seriously ... killing one kryl ... or three duskhorn (all very reasonable for a week long hunting trip in my opinion) will net one more than what a noble or templar seems capable of scraping together. I'm tired of being offered three large to bring back samples of rare critter poison and thinking to myself ... pffft, I'll just use the poison myself to practice, that's more valuable an activity than anything they're offering.

Right now the only time it makes sense for my PC to be interested in what another PC has to bribe them wth, is when they're basically selling the skill boosts staff gave them as a sponsered role via the "teach" command, or they're selling in game knowlege that once you know ... you know ... and it takes a huge amount of self control to unknow for your next PC. I'm talking about crafting receipes, poison secrets, knowledge of in game areas ... the things that don't go away when you see the mantis head.

I love hunting and having a PC who can rough it out in the wilds living on their own ... but I really wish that the coin you could get from selling raw shells and leathers and what not was a hell of a lot lower. That way the stipend nobles and templar receive would actually mean something.

It's been said that "well nobles could get grebbers to go greb for them and turn the coin over so then they would have more money" and ... aside from the difficulies associated with getting a grebber PC to give you their hard earned cash for nothing ... I feel like that would be just as uneffective as having staff increase their stipend 10 fold. If the game was flooded with even MORE money ... ugh.

I think it should be clear that the day templars start tapping whichever indie has money in a bank account (regardless of the level of toil that was involved in building that sum and regardless of the purpose the indie has been accumulating the sum for, since these things would not be visible), and thereby drains that indie's potential for generating plots in favor of the templar's potential, is the day Red Storm and Luir's will finally become major player hubs.

Quote from: musashi on September 16, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
a PC who is able to down salt worms, mek, bahamet, kryl, and Muk.

Quote from: MarshallDFX on September 16, 2009, 07:42:57 PM

Quote from: musashi on September 16, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
a PC who is able to down salt worms, mek, bahamet, kryl, and Muk.

Stop posting my PC's objective on the GDB!!!!

QuoteRight now the only time it makes sense for my PC to be interested in what another PC has to bribe them wth, is when they're basically selling the skill boosts staff gave them as a sponsered role via the "teach" command, or they're selling in game knowlege that once you know ... you know ... and it takes a huge amount of self control to unknow for your next PC. I'm talking about crafting receipes, poison secrets, knowledge of in game areas ... the things that don't go away when you see the mantis head.

Umm ... well, that made me uncomfortable.


The rest of the post is 'reasonably' understandable.

Quote from: musashi on September 16, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
I almost want to laugh when a noble asks my character to go bring them some rare pelt, gland, skull, or whatever ... and has like 200 coins to "sweeten the deal". I want to laugh ... except I know that to that poor noble PC, that's a lot of money.

Quote
I'm tired of being offered three large to bring back samples of rare critter poison and thinking to myself ... pffft, I'll just use the poison myself to practice, that's more valuable an activity than anything they're offering.

See, this is why the upside-down bizarro distribution of wealth is a problem. And we wonder why people burn out on noble and templar roles.

Okay, let me ask this another way.  Are merchant guild characters in such short supply, or do nobles and templars have so little to trade for their efforts?  Its an enforced grouping game, right?

Quote from: Dar on September 16, 2009, 09:50:04 PM

QuoteRight now the only time it makes sense for my PC to be interested in what another PC has to bribe them wth, is when they're basically selling the skill boosts staff gave them as a sponsered role via the "teach" command, or they're selling in game knowlege that once you know ... you know ... and it takes a huge amount of self control to unknow for your next PC. I'm talking about crafting receipes, poison secrets, knowledge of in game areas ... the things that don't go away when you see the mantis head.

Umm ... well, that made me uncomfortable.


The rest of the post is 'reasonably' understandable.

It makes me uncomfortable as well, but I feel like the it's the current situation. I wish money mattered more, but I think that the game, by design, just makes it all too easy to come by for folks who shouldn't be comming by it that easily. Where as the ones who should be able to come by money easy, are barred from doing so. It's ... weird ... to force yourself to RP out the exact opposite of reality. It would be like we're all in a room with an elephant, but we have all decded to pretend the elephant isn't there no matter what it does, breaks, or poops on.

Quote from: Halcyon on September 16, 2009, 11:15:07 PM
Okay, let me ask this another way.  Are merchant guild characters in such short supply, or do nobles and templars have so little to trade for their efforts?  Its an enforced grouping game, right?

Guild merchant has nothing to do with nobles and templars, really. Nobles can be of any guild they can get the imms to let them be, and templars are their own special guild types. Merchant PCs really shouldn't usually be employed by nobles and templars for the purpose of being crafting bots, because that area of the game should be fulfilled by GMHs and certain tribes.

The problem is that what nobles and templars have to offer--which is primarily the social status of associating with them, and the potential of being involved in plots--is often not interesting to indie or unclanned PCs. Nobles and templars cannot competitively offer to pay indies for services or favors, because indies can make much vaster sums of money just by normal coded grebbing/hunting. Nobles and templars also often don't have access to cool items, unless they can get those cool items through GMHs just like anyone else can (which requires money the nobles and templars don't have). musashi pretty much outlined it above.

Musashi is right, really. Unfortunately.

Which is why I think the two coin idea is awesome. That way, like I say, commoners can do common things and buy common things and horde common coin and organize common clans and go pretty far, but at a certain point, it just won't matter without High Coin, which they can rob for, steal for, kill for, trade for, favor for, etc.

Nobles and Templars are limited in how they can get coin, and despite what anybody thinks, it's not easy. Nobles Houses do certain things, and that's all, and deviation from that path is watched closely and pounced on swiftly. A stipend does not make a Noble rich, particularly when they use it all on plots. Templars have a little more freedom, but not much.

I think we have veered from the original intention of the post, but anyway.

The 'Currency' of the Economy, once you graduate from the newbie stage with no ride or contact, is no longer sids.

Maybe it is just me, but I am jaded to the stage that I will be far more appreciative towards a lovely ring or dagger that is worth 500sids than you giving me 1000 sids to buy whatever I want. It felt more like being given pocket money.

The problem, seems to me, is that nobles/templars/sponsored roles are still using a somewhat obsolete currency to influence the other PCs. If you want to use sids to make me do something, then sorry, perhaps you suck so much that I would rather hack sids for 1000 hours than rp 1 hour with you. (I never hacked sids for money, just saying as e.g.) However! If you are going to lever your influence to talk to Agent Kadius over there to help me get that ultra exclusive piece of shit at a reasonable price, I will get off my ass to do what you want.

Thus I think Dar's duol currency idea is nice. It will actually give the intangible favor system a tangible body. This way, some new characters who got into the political role will not get frustrated. Most noble/templar trying to use sids as a lure, it is at a somewhat wrong start already.

As a side, I honestly don't get how aides or bards would starve. Usually, I throw sids at them and applaud and smile and praise just so they can stop singing/emoting. From how rich some bards I come across had became, I am not alone. It is not that they are bad. I simply can't stand it. Maybe you poor bards are performing to the wrong audience!

On Gim's remark since I am bad with quotes:

I am sorry. Those quests ideas really suck to me. I know they are just examples. But I really dislike DnD style quests. Go to that place. Fetch 10 rat skins. You will be rewarded with the Sword of Rat Slayer should you survive. Rinse. Repeat with the Sword of Ritikki slayer.

No thank you. Once I got enough sids to rent apartment/buy wagon/kill noble 329/cut off bard's tongue, I generally stop making money. If I was selling to Kadius for 100k a week before, now I only do it for 100 sids a week. Just rping out the routine so any spy that want to find out my source of income has a lead. If those kind of quests are created, I will simply sit here and idle and not join because I am a lazy girl and unless I find a plot interesting oocly, icly, my PC will react with ignorance and lack of interest. It helps when my char has not so bright wisdom, too, to make it stay ic. (which assassin/warrior/ranger would prioritize wisdom first anyway?)

Bribery, especially at higher ups, is not sids. (repeat) If you are an excellent rper as we all are, the fun you give me in rp is usually half the bribery. The old saying: it iis not what you do, but how you do it.

Sure the economy is broken. But the bribery system does function fine right now.

True story from my first character ...

A tuluki noble offered him two small in exchange for going out and killing three cilops, and bringing some of the skinned goodies back for study, and my PC had to say to him: Um, you know two small isn't going to even cover the cost of the arrows I'm going to go through hunting these for you, right?

My point? I don't think the way the indie PC's are behaving is the problem. What are we supposed to say to that? There is only so long one can expect a commoner character to keep doing favors and financing a noble/templar character before they start thinking: This is insane ... I'm financing this guy so he can order me around! What the hell is going on here?! And as I said in my post above, I don't think most indie characters spend their time going twink twink twink greb greb greb hunt hunt hunt craft craft craft SELL SELL SWEET JESUS YESSSSS!!!!

All an inide character has to do is go out hunting once ... go wrestle cattle once ... go mine obsidian once ... and they already have more money than the two small that noble was offering me to go and do a "quest" for. It seems to me like its just all out of whack in a serious way. Oh and ... sorry to the player of that noble, I'm not picking on you at all dude, you were a great role-player, just a victim of circumstance!

I um ... I really don't like the two coins idea, because that seems like putting a bandaid on a ruptured stomach. And I think it would eventually just become another weird part of the overall problem.

I think the best way to fix things, would be to make basically everything craftable ... and have someone go through the price of items in given locations and change them to better reflect consistency with what we would expect from aworld like Zalanthas, both how much they are bought, and sold for.

But I know that's a retardedly large work load to ask staff to do on their free time along with everything else they already do. I just wish staff would do something like, put out an announcement for people to apply to help them write crafting recipies, and help them go through areas of the game those players are already really familia with and offer repricing models for everything.

As much work as it would be, I think if the players were helping in a controlled, trusted manner, then the work would get done.

Things always advance faster in the private sector  ;)

EDIT to Melody: That seems like the "elephant in the room" thing to me again. The joy of RP is the reward so we'll ignore the fact that the noble or templar physically can't afford to compete with me in terms of buying power ... even though I'm not doing anything wrong, and neither is he, it's just the way the game is designed ... and pretend that he can while I work for free, or at cost to myself in order to keep the illusion going.

Yes ... I agree that that's how we do things now, but I'd like to see that changed so that we didn't have to.

Quote from: musashi on September 16, 2009, 11:58:46 PM
True story from my first character ...

A tuluki noble offered him two small in exchange for going out and killing three cilops, and bringing some of the skinned goodies back for study, and my PC had to say to him: Um, you know two small isn't going to even cover the cost of the arrows I'm going to go through hunting these for you, right?

True story. Doing things for Templars often gets you involved in other plots, or makes you more approachable and "useful" in their eyes. Also, some people don't hunt cilops with arrows. True story, Quick would just walk up and spit on them and they would die.

Regardless... I think people -far- underestimate how much coin is in this game. As a high profile PC, I still do my best to not horde up a massive amount of coin, but its an RP thing for me. I've never had more than 2000 coins at any given time, because if I did I would buy stuff, or pay PCs to do things for me. Or buy off bartenders, etc etc.

I think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

That is all.

Quote from: Riev on September 17, 2009, 12:11:03 AM

Quote from: musashi on September 16, 2009, 11:58:46 PM
True story from my first character ...

A tuluki noble offered him two small in exchange for going out and killing three cilops, and bringing some of the skinned goodies back for study, and my PC had to say to him: Um, you know two small isn't going to even cover the cost of the arrows I'm going to go through hunting these for you, right?

True story. Doing things for Templars often gets you involved in other plots, or makes you more approachable and "useful" in their eyes. Also, some people don't hunt cilops with arrows. True story, Quick would just walk up and spit on them and they would die.

Regardless... I think people -far- underestimate how much coin is in this game. As a high profile PC, I still do my best to not horde up a massive amount of coin, but its an RP thing for me. I've never had more than 2000 coins at any given time, because if I did I would buy stuff, or pay PCs to do things for me. Or buy off bartenders, etc etc.

I think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

That is all.

Again with the

(http://aphrabehn.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/elephant_in_living_room.jpg)

I get that we do it for the RP. I do it for the RP. I went and got said noble's cilops. Nearly every PC I make goes and whores themselves out to the nobility because I know how tough a role they're playing must be and I want to help them make "stuff" happen in the game. I get it. I really do.  It just bothers me that we do it for the RP and nothing else, because everyone knows quite candidly just how poor the "rich" folk are in comparison to the "poor" ones.

It seems like what you and Melody are saying is basically: I choose to RP it this way. And that's cool, that's basically how I RP it too; I usually don't go over the 10k mark in money with my PC's because ... I just don't feel like they need that much, unless there is some big big event they are trying to bust their ass to finance. But I don't see how that helps to fix the problem with the way the game is designed.

And sorry for all the editing, and re-editing, I kept forgeting stuff.

Quote from: Riev on September 17, 2009, 12:11:03 AM
I think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

That is all.

That's how I've usually seen things. Just spend that 'sid, guys! You can't take it with you when you're dead!

As to the issue at large, yes, I agree it's all out of whack. I have no helpful advice, though.

Quote from: musashi on September 16, 2009, 11:58:46 PM
EDIT to Melody: That seems like the "elephant in the room" thing to me again. The joy of RP is the reward so we'll ignore the fact that the noble or templar physically can't afford to compete with me in terms of buying power ... even though I'm not doing anything wrong, and neither is he, it's just the way the game is designed ... and pretend that he can while I work for free, or at cost to myself in order to keep the illusion going.

Yes ... I agree that that's how we do things now, but I'd like to see that changed so that we didn't have to.

Unfortunately, all that a noble or templar can give to any of my characters that I can see, (once they pass the newbie stage) is their power and influence. This is something no indie can get for themselves, or even a clanned aide. If a noble/templar does not know how to harness that, then not only they will have nothing I want, I won't even serve under them as minions. Any aide knows how important it is to have a supportive noble/templar if they want to live long while doing plots.

Quote from: RievI think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

I am not good at maths. So I am trying here...

When I am a newbie PC, the proportion of my spending is almost equal to my income. As I become better and more long lived, the ratio goes down. Once I am, say, pass 20 playing days, to use sids is only possible with NPC shops.

True story:

- Me wanting to nurture a budding shaddy char. Hand him 1000 sids. He turned it down politely. Ask  him what he wants. He wants picks. Give him 5 picks instead.

- Found an assassin to kill a target. Hand him 2000 sids. He turned it down politely. Ask him what he wants. He wants to booze with me and exchange information and bail him out of some trouble as favor returning. (which he is better off, I mean, at the time, I'd bail people for a 3k bribe, cheap bastard!)

- Found a spy to spy on someone. Hand him 500 sids. He turned it down politely. Told me she wants a meaningful, long term partnership build on trust. Ask her what she wants... so on.

This all happen on different characters on a regular basis. The only way I could spend money is to purchase from Merchant Houses for expensive items as gifts to those people. But everyone has a merchant buddy as best friend, so it is not all that expensive either when you become a regular customer. However, we all know how long it takes them to respond with an order. (the quickiest is 1 week) So spending is slow, unless I go throw money at the street.

I am all for musashi's suggestion on an overhaul. But it seems so daunting. I can live with the current system if the alternative is killing our staffs. :P

For doing things for RP. When there is nothing you can give me that I want, rp is really their only option.

I agree with you completely Melody, but I think the reason nobles and templar tend to offer money, and are unable to muster up much else is that they're limited in what they can be involved in. Like it was mentioned before ... nobles houses and GMH and perhaps to a lesser extent templar ... have only a small selection of things "they do" and to deviate from it might bring the ire of their clan staff. This might not be a problem for a long lived noble/templar/blooded GMH person who has been around to know plenty of contacts to "refer" ... but for a newbie one ... it must be awful tough.

"I'll give you 200 to do this for me."
"No thank you."
"Well what do you want?"
"I want information on what goes on in Luir's Outpost."
"I um .. I only deal in plants."
"... ..."
"Do you want some tablets?"
"... ..."

I mean, of course they can (with time) find someone who does want tablets ... or will take the coin (good luck with that) to go to Luir's for them and find out some stuff so they can pass it on to that other person, but I think a lot of them might just get discouraged at it being so hard and store early on, never making it to that long-lived age.

But I admit that's just me guessing based on limited observation.

I feel like if things were priced better, and not so out of whack, then a noble offering a large to someone might actually mean something, and it could help give those new nobles a foot in the door.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 16, 2009, 11:30:39 PM

Which is why I think the two coin idea is awesome. That way, like I say, commoners can do common things and buy common things and horde common coin and organize common clans and go pretty far, but at a certain point, it just won't matter without High Coin, which they can rob for, steal for, kill for, trade for, favor for, etc.

So... almost a two-economy system?  One low-brow, one high-brow? 

That's actually a pretty good idea.  I mean, one of the main causes for game inflation/ deflation is the constant need to find that balance between a living wage (food/ clothing/ water/ maybe shelter) and luxury items (bribes/ 80 different silk items/ fancy dinner or drinks)  so maybe your two-coin idea would work.  That way PCs could survive, yet it'd still be a challenge to "thrive"

I suppose code wise we already have a sort of two-coin system (a certain four-armed man willing to trade X number of <color> coins for 1 <color> coin and then eventually buy <item>)   So, code wise the eventual accumulation of low-coins could be exchanged for high-coin. 

Ahh...  then the accumulation of high-coin could be more closely monitored than low coin!  That is, if a PC accumulates lots of low coin they have lots of low-brow plot-line sid.  BUT, if they suddenly accumulate lots of high-brow coin... it's an indication they intend to push the envelope of their social standing and they become fair game.

Brilliant!!!

Food/ water/ assortment of gear/ everything-needed can be done through low-brow sids   (Nobles would have plenty of that sort of pocket-change to establish themselves)
YET Houses could now offer something special (maybe a few high-brow coins to top workers)
AND those players who really wish to challenge themselves could have that separate challenge of accumulating and spending high-brow currency without drawing too much attention to themselves.

mumble, mumble. That's how ideas get stolen. *eyeshift*  :)

I like the two-tier coin system.

I wouldn't want, however, to see GMH's gutted by this process.  Deciding which items require basic sids and which require Evil Overlord sids would have to be done carefully.

Quote from: Dar on September 17, 2009, 08:27:21 AM
mumble, mumble. That's how ideas get stolen. *eyeshift*  :)

:-[ :-[ :-[  Sorry Dar!!!   

:gives Dar credit:

Uncraftable items would require high coin. One item created for the coin and a script written for exchange and npcs in banks and the solution is live. I think its worth the work.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 17, 2009, 10:21:20 AM
Uncraftable items would require high coin. One item created for the coin and a script written for exchange and npcs in banks and the solution is live. I think its worth the work.

Too simplistic. Many of the craftable items in the database are made of silk--shouldn't those be classed as luxury items? And what about luxury apartments, by definition aren't those luxury items? Is perfume a luxury item, even though much of it is craftable? And there's lots of low-level, basic equipment that is not craftable.

I don't know if development of a high-coin, low-coin system is going to be practical with Arm 1 coming to a close, especially if Arm 2's economy is going to be redesigned to address many of the economy issues.  Why not just balance out crafting, grebbing, and other such activities so that they result in a more realistic economy in Arm 2?  If there's going to be a larger focus on PC-led/based clans, coming up with solutions that mostly attack the issues plaguing Arm 1 might be moot?

-LoD

It was simplistic - I didn't have time to flesh it out. Posts from my phone take forever to write. :)

Quote from: LoD on September 17, 2009, 11:57:20 AM
I don't know if development of a high-coin, low-coin system is going to be practical with Arm 1 coming to a close, especially if Arm 2's economy is going to be redesigned to address many of the economy issues.  Why not just balance out crafting, grebbing, and other such activities so that they result in a more realistic economy in Arm 2?  If there's going to be a larger focus on PC-led/based clans, coming up with solutions that mostly attack the issues plaguing Arm 1 might be moot?

-LoD

Can't price codes already be adjusted in game?  Maybe simply raising/ lowering prices depending on a PC be a simple answer to achieve almost the same result?

Haven't read all 8 pages but anyway... the economy is ridiculous and hurting the game. Players play with the reality that's put in front of them and right now the game throws money at people for performing menial tasks. Rather than trying to change the mentality of players I'd prefer to see some hard changes made to the gameworld and how much money can be made from things.

Drastically reduce the gain that people get from hunting / grebbing across the board. Unless you've managed to carve out a mini-corporation for yourself in these areas you shouldn't be earning good 'sid at all from them. Hunting / grebbing for your everday sort of things as a one-man indy effort should never, ever make you rich. If you want to be rich make a noble / templar, build up your own merchant organisation, build up your own crime gang, etc. It should either take rank or time to be wealthy. Going out for a RL week or two and relentlessly mining or whatever to get rich needs to be stopped.

Keep prices the way they are.

Nobles / Templars get large bank account balances to reflect the fact that they are the richest people in the land. The current stipends just don't cut it though I suppose they'd be closer to the mark if commoners' ability to make vasts of amount of 'sid was curtailed. Your average commoner will sit up and take notice then when a few hundred 'sid is offered up for a job instead of sniffily turning up their noses at a months wage for one job.

Independent commoner merchants should be properly taxed, extorted, call it what you will... and not feel aggrieved by it. It's the price of doing business is all. By all means it should be possible for an indy commoner merchant to haul themselves up to quite a respectable amount of wealth but it should be -hard-. You're unaffiliated and not from any of the established families so expect to have to grasp, network, grease palms, etc. for it.

Right now wealth in the game is virtually meaningless. Anybody can make an argosy load of the stuff in a fairly short space of time. Seeing somebody with wealth should mark out the character as somebody with power, success and (most likely) a network of contacts.

The problem with this, is that what you suggest Boggis, facilitates 'grinding'. If hunting brings very very little money, then good luck convincing someone to hunt. If a merchant cant get rich off the stuff he makes, then he has this much less tools to influence the world with, and involve people in. Especially since 80% of the stuff a merchant makes is useless and easily superseeded by the GMH produce (as it should be really).

Quote from: Boggis on October 23, 2009, 09:46:12 AMHunting / grebbing for your everday sort of things as a one-man indy effort should never, ever make you rich.

Looks like to me that creating interaction would be encouraged under Boggis' suggestion, as it would be necessary to work with others to become wealthy. As opposed to now, when a person can single-handedly generate unrealistic amounts of wealth, no interaction required, and who's to say they'll use that wealth to create interaction? Have you seen many indies pumping out plots and creating more interaction than, say, clan leaders lately?

I sure as hell would play a hunter if the ability to make large amounts of profit single-handedly was curbed; I'd find the struggle fun.

HTX pretty much answered for me. But just to add to it - hunting / grebbing by yourself is subsistence living. It's something that should pay very low so that acquiring that new piece of gear is something of a struggle. It's never been a wealthy occupation IRL unless a) you managed to carve out some territory for yourself over which you oversee the operation on a large scale or b) you managed to find a seam of rare minerals, oil, etc. that people are ready to pay high prices for.

A) is certainly possible to do on Arm and is a possible road to wealth. It encourages interaction and probably conflict as well as you'll no doubt come into competition against others who might have the same idea in mind for the area that you're interested in.

B) is probably not possible on Arm given that it's an extremely resource poor world and discovering a seam of metal would be your inevitable death.

As for the point about "grinding" I don't think it's facilitate it. I think it'd probably make grinding for those kind of jobs completely pointless - you're never going to be rich by it so there's no point even attempting it on your own if that's what you want to achieve with your character unless you build yourself up into some sort of top-notch hunter who brings in extremely rare game which is actually worth a lot to people. Mr. Amos Scrabhunter does not fit this category and will never be rich. It'd make clan jobs more attractive as their monthly salary would actually mean something instead of somebody thinking, "Shit all I have to do is sell a few leaves and I'll make more than that". Free food and water would take on more meaning too. I'm not saying that you can't be rich as an indy scrab hunter or 'sid hacker but it really should involve more than >use hack deposit, >use hack deposit, >use hack deposit, >use hack deposit, >use hack deposit, get all, enter tent.

I think the same pretty much applies to indy commoner merchants - they shouldn't be getting rich by selling everyday stuff unless they're selling en masse. Your average potter churning out urns was never a rich man IRL. The path to wealth as a merchant has always been building up your territory through the interaction, collaboration and competition with others in order to increase your volume. Perhaps to facilitate this we could have artisan groups made up of players plus NPC crafters as membership. Players could rise up through the ranks to eventually head up this sort of unions (more interaction and potential conflict) and they could offer a guaranteed buying area for the produce supplied by its membership under the assumption that there's probably a market for it in the city. As a lowly skilled merchant you wouldn't get good prices for your stuff but you'd get by. The real money would come from being a master-crafter (something which I'd make take a longer time to be) or from being high up in the ranks of the group where you get a cut of profits. Yes there'd be conflict and opposition from the GMHs for this but they don't employ nearly enough people in the major cities really so it could be allowed to happen and let the conflict come IC. I'd give them access to decent crafting recipes and these would all require materials from PC hunters / grebbers as opposed to the GMHs where the fancy goods mostly seem to materialise from thin air.

Quote from: Dar on October 23, 2009, 10:20:01 PM
If a merchant cant get rich off the stuff he makes, then he has this much less tools to influence the world with, and involve people in.

In a gameworld where everybody can get rich easily anyway being wealthy isn't a tool to influencing the world with and involving people in unless you're so unbelievably rich that you can afford to throw around massive amounts of 'sid. To get those massive amounts of 'sid probably involves more than a bit of grinding if you're a merchant. This needs to be reversed and money needs to be elevated to its proper position.

I don't think IRL hunting economics apply in a situation like Zalanthas, where going out to hunt is an incredibly dangerous occupation.  Hunters are paid well for hunted goods because ordinary folks don't even have the remotest possibility of going out to kill a duskhorn and actually surviving the encounter with the duskhorn itself, much less the half-dozen other things you might run into that are infinitely more dangerous by comparison.

We take things like "slashing weapons" and "archery" and "parry" for granted as PCs, but the fact is 99% of the non-militia population's skills are limited to "menial tasks" and "scraping by."  PCs get paid salaries like skilled workers in real life because we are the exceptionally talented and/or exceptionally trained, for the most part.

I don't think PCs are exceptional myself. The GMHs are filled with other hunters and grebbers performing the same tasks PCs do. Or is House Kadius wholly dependent on PCs to bring in duskhorn pelts? In my opinion PCs are decidedly average. They occupy the same places in the world as NPCs do, do the same jobs, drink in the same pubs, etc. They never even rise up to really high positions in society - at best they'll get up to a middle management level in the House they work in. Guess those unexceptional NPCs have somehow managed to get all the top jobs around the place. The only real difference I see with PCs (apart from their player driven short life spans) is that they can rake in huge piles of 'sid doing the same things NPCs do and that this is leading to absurd situations where your average PC 'sid miner is richer than a noble and his NPC counterpart seems to be wondering where his next meal is going to come from.

Quote from: Boggis on October 24, 2009, 02:27:00 PM
I don't think PCs are exceptional myself. The GMHs are filled with other hunters and grebbers performing the same tasks PCs do. Or is House Kadius wholly dependent on PCs to bring in duskhorn pelts? In my opinion PCs are decidedly average. They occupy the same places in the world as NPCs do, do the same jobs, drink in the same pubs, etc. They never even rise up to really high positions in society - at best they'll get up to a middle management level in the House they work in. Guess those unexceptional NPCs have somehow managed to get all the top jobs around the place. The only real difference I see with PCs (apart from their player driven short life spans) is that they can rake in huge piles of 'sid doing the same things NPCs do and that this is leading to absurd situations where your average PC 'sid miner is richer than a noble and his NPC counterpart seems to be wondering where his next meal is going to come from.

The GMH vNPCs are presumably on the same pay scale as the PCs, so what's your point?

Those vNPCs and NPCs are just as exceptional as their PC counterparts.

And "rising to a high position in society" has zip/zero/zilch to do with "doing a dangerous job that you are paid well for."

Dont most gmh have a rule against on the side profiteering. So there would be little argument about pc npc wealth equality. Now indies make more sid as they do not give the whole to a house. However they are on thier own and more vulnrable.

Quote from: Synthesis on October 24, 2009, 02:30:45 PM
The GMH vNPCs are presumably on the same pay scale as the PCs, so what's your point?

Those vNPCs and NPCs are just as exceptional as their PC counterparts.

And "rising to a high position in society" has zip/zero/zilch to do with "doing a dangerous job that you are paid well for."

My point is that certain types of PCs are earning an amount of 'sid which should not be possible for the work that they do and it's distorting things. Now if you're a hunter bringing in special game then fine you should expect to earn good 'sid as there really might not be many who're up to that job. But bringing in your average game from around the city? The kind of things that a newbie warrior can mostly take down on his own? Shouldn't make you a rich man in my opinion. I'm fine with a risk v. reward ratio but hunting isn't all that dangerous so long as you follow certain rules and stick to certain areas where you can be fairly confident about what you'll encounter. Somebody is keeping the GMHs stocked with crafting supplies to keep their vast operations going which wouldn't possible if they were dropping like flies. What gets PC hunters killed mostly is that they get bored doing the same job and they head off to see if their skills have advanced enough to take on a bigger mob or they want to go exploring new areas some.

I don't have an issue with GMH hunters who more or less play by the House rules as they'll be earning a fair wage - my only point about them before was that I didn't see PCs as being all that exceptional amongst the general populace. I would think that reasonable percentage of the population could be taught how to take down average game as a hunting party but that's just my opinion. The House hunters won't get rich quick off their monthly wage but they'll do alright over time. It's not a huge amount of money for a what can at times be a dangerous job but then armies and the like having been paying their soldiers to put their life on the line a shitty wage since forever. However when somebody can step just outside the city and pick up a few bunches of leaves or hack a little 'sid and earn what you earn in a month in a few days then there's a problem. These aren't exceptionally dangerous jobs being performed by exceptional people. I mean if you're fine with a one man indy 'sid hacker operation being richer than a noble then fair enough - I just think it's absurd. It distorts the meaning of wealth, the status of those characters who should be wealthy but are in fact somewhat poor in comparison and promotes solo grinding of fairly menial tasks (Red Storm and a certain subguild anyone?) to easily up your bank balance. Instead of a system that promotes interaction, collaboration and competition we have pretty much the opposite.

Am I the only one that gets my like 175 coins an IC month, and struggles to actually make ends meet beyond that?

I mean, beyond bonuses, thats all I get. And when I -do- get a kickback of a few hundred 'sid, I end up spending it on crap like clothing, or weapons, or more expensive food because I'm sick of Byn Stew.

Indies make more money than House crafters. Thats just simply how it is, and unless the prices for <SUPER SECRET METHOD OF MADNESS> go down, and thus everyone has access to cheap <SUPER SECRET METHOD OF MADNESS> there's little chance for changes. If the staff make duskhorn hide cheaper, or make duskhorn harder to kill, Tuluk will lose its Hello Kitty vibe. And if they make Allanak's scrabs and spiders profitable, PCs will complain about how hard they are to kill for the relatively little benefits.


Has anyone actually proposed a system that would fix the issue, or has everyone just argued that PCs have too much money? Because as usual, that is not 100% the case and you're penalizing those that prefer to play poor (ALLITERATION!).

Listen, it's been said time and time again, and it bears repeating:  just because an indie can make obscene amounts of 'sid doesn't mean in any way whatsoever that they can translate that into anything beyond an ability to buy objects.  Money doesn't easily translate into power on Zalanthas.  You might be able to offer the guild 10,000 coins as an independent to try to get a single templar offed, but even if that templar only has 50 'sid to his name, all he needs to do is learn about your little scheme to put the supreme Highlord's Kibosh on your testicles.  And that's why people would rather have a templar in their pocket than 10,000 'sid from some stupid newb who's been spam-foraging salt: because templars and nobles can really make shit happen, because they have connections and minions that are vastly more effective than pocketfuls of 'sid.

Furthermore, I really don't see hordes of newbs running around throwing cash at every problem that comes along.  I have witnessed (and I do this myself, sometimes) people using their period of "this is a new character and I'm not emotionally invested yet" to do dangerous and risky things (and let's not kid ourselves:  going out to forage salt or mine obsidian with newb skills is extremely dangerous and risky) to scrabble together a little more cash for some better gear before they join a clan where they won't be making enough to do anything with their free time or pay for an apartment.

hate to revive a debate dead as a doornail, but I was wondering what, if anything, was done to fix the original problem? I'm a pure newb myself. I really liked the two coin types idea, but I haven't seen that in game, though that doesn't mean much with my under one day knowledge

I don't know. Currently it isn't that realistic but I don't think tightening things down further is the answer.
There are jobs in the game which used to bring enough coin to survive off of that now do not because they have been tightened down to prevent a few from abusing it unrealistically. Once that happened, I no longer make pcs that attempt to do those jobs, move on to something else, then when they tighten it down because of a few abusing it, I move on to something else, etc. It began to turn into having to log in and work at the job for every moment logged in, just to have a chance to feed, water, and gear yourself. This left you for no time to do anything else logged in, because your character that would have been able to support themselves in the past, now is barely scraping by with every bit of logged in time spend working to do so. Eventually, there won't be anything one can do indy and make enough of a living to feed, water, and gear themselves.
I liked it much better when I could make an indy pc, pick out a job type and be able to support myself doing it. It is getting more and more difficult to do. Which means, if you are an offpeak player, someone who doesn't like playing in the coded clans, or someone with little time to play, you may as well give up on trying to play this game at all.

Quote from: Synthesis on October 24, 2009, 10:11:17 PM
Listen, it's been said time and time again, and it bears repeating:  just because an indie can make obscene amounts of 'sid doesn't mean in any way whatsoever that they can translate that into anything beyond an ability to buy objects. 

Didn't you specifically cite in a previous post that your PC was spending over a thousand in bribes and services?  Trying to underplay the importance of coin doesn't achieve anything, nor does it make any sense as an argument.  Objects are an important part of the game.  Coin is important as well, and while it can't buy everything, it can certainly buy a lot (food/water/apartments/weapons/armor/assassinations/etc).

This is a thread from late 2009 with the same title as the current thread, that's been necro'ed.

If you'll notice, the current thread is in "World Discussion," not "General Discussion."

And maybe I was overstating the case against coins previously, but the fundamental point remains:  they don't translate into power in any meaningful sense of the word.

My bribes to templars have generally been the, "please don't kill me sir" type, not the "now that we're pals, will you take care of these guys for me?" type.  That isn't really power.  That's kowtowing to power.  And that's the way it should be.

Synth:

I don't understand your argument.  You keep stating the coin is not power, yet you admit you prefer your characters have a lot of coin.  If your characters don't find coin an advantage for them, why do you prefer that they collect it and use it?

I'm pretty certain you don't have your characters roll around in it - you use it (and have some stockpiled for anticipated use).  Obviously you view coin as a means to worthwhile ends such that you spend RL time collecting it.

Power is the ability to achieve one's ends, therefore it would seem that coin is actually power.

Just because I find it worthwhile doesn't mean I think they translate into any substantial degree of power.  I like to buy stupid fancy, overpriced objects from Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac, and I like to be able to pay newbies to do stuff to keep them entertained and engaged in the game.  I've never tried to rival a noble or templar, and the only people I've ever tried to have assassinated were pretty much nobody commoners like my characters.

However, 9 times out of 10, coins accumulate for me because I play a lot, I go out and do stuff, and they just kind of happen.  I don't log in thinking, "Goddamn, I have to hit 1,000 'sid today...." More often it's, "Damn, I'm thirsty, so I better start foraging for water...(10 minutes later) Ah, that was refreshing...now what am I going to do with these 50 roots I turned up?  (30 minutes later) Damn, all that was worth 800 coins?"  Or of course, the eternal, "I went out to kill a couple of gurth because someone placed an order for gurth shells, but three raptors, two carru, and a tembo aggroed on me along the way, so I have a bunch of extra crap to get rid of because there's no point in just leaving the carcass there to rot."  And there's also, "Damn, every other PC in town knows my PC can get shit done, so they -all- hire me to hunt and greb for them."  And of course the, "Agent Soandso knows I can get shit done, so I get mad bonuses and tons of free shit from him because I'm a BAMF."  And I almost forgot the, "Sweet, a dead newbie with 800 coins still on him!"

As far as power goes, I never (seriously) said that coins do not generate ANY POWER WHATSOEVER.  I've pretty consistently maintained that they do not translate easily into power.  Yes, you can get small things done with coins, but you aren't going to accomplish anything worth talking about with the power of coins alone.  Further, I think there's quite a bit of conflation with the fact that usually you have to interact with PCs to generate a lot of coins over time.  The amount of power someone has who gets rich by interacting with PC crafters is vastly greater than the amount of power you'd gain by generating the same amount of coins merely by grebbing salt.  Personally, I think that's fine.  If Shadows McLongknife doesn't want to take that 5,000 'sid assassination contract against me because I've brought her 10,000 'sid worth of gems for her jeweling hobby over the past month, tough beans.

p.s. Shadows McLongknife is now trademarked for one of my future character concepts.