Economy

[Veges]

I have a concern regarding the in-game economy and methods pertaining to the acquisition of wealth. Despite what the game's setting and documentation would have me believe, making money has proven to be incredibly easy unless one deliberately refrains from the many opportunities that crop up for one's character. I have found that even the most primitive forms of work, such as scavenging corpses, mining or picking leaves yields an income to rival that of actual jobs, jobs of supposedly high status such as house merchants or various kinds of sergeants and officers. I understand that this used not to be the case and that a multitude of income venues were introduced to the game along the way.

Having seen how much money one can make from a concerted mining effort or regular skimming of the 'rinth alleys, I have to question the prospect of this. I realise that part of the value of actual jobs is the board and lodging that tends to come with it, but the gain still seems overshadowed by salt-grebbing, herbalism, or the foraging of artifacts. In other words, the professions that seem like they should be last resorts that one can barely survive on are actually the most profitable in the game, to the point where people will consistently wipe out the sources of these things or, more importantly, forgo actual jobs and clans in favor of things like obsidian mining which allows you to easily sustain yourself with a few minutes of work every day instead of having to suffer schedules and chores.

This in turn appears to have the unfortunate effect on clans that nobody joins them for the purpose of making a living, and those who might join them to pursue other goals will then be deterred by the lack of clan population. Every clan that I look at, short of the Byn and whichever merchant house or militia is the flavor of the month, seems prohibitively under-populated. The times I've played in such clans myself have been similar: very few players, nothing to do, noone with any interest whatsoever in joining. I found that most of the players in the clans were people who just wanted to try out that clan to see what it was all about, not players to whom playing in the clan was part of any actual concept. This leads to a very unfulfilling experience and leaves many gaping holes in the game world.

Other than that, it just seems counter-intuitive to the setting that most Zalanthan inhabitants can just go out and make whatever money they need on demand. I see no poverty, no shortages or money-related compromises. I see no rivalries or independent trade, no incentive to pursue crime or dishonest business. I feel that the game robs itself of many things when money is of no real concern to anyone and making a living is a question of which cash vending machine to turn to. Do I want to go mining, plant-picking, salt-foraging, looting or hunting? It's all equally safe and effortless.

[Vessol]

Yeah, it's a major many people have discussed over the years. I believe the reason I and many others choose to play in clans is for the roleplay and the "flavor" surrounding the clan(ie: playing a rough n' tumble Bynner).

While I'd love to see the current economy worked out, I doubt we'll see anything until 2.Arm.

As easy as it is though to become richer then most nobles in a RL week, it's not a whole lot of fun. Fun in this game comes from interaction with others and advancing personal and larger plots. I myself have tried once or twice a solo character whom made tons of money, and while fun to powergame for a week or two, I quickly grew bored and ended up retiring that character. All of my long-lived characters have been involved with roleplay with others and actually usually had money shortages.

[Pale Horse]

  What Vessol said.  Spot on.

 Having done the whole "independently wealthy independent" thing, I can add that, yes, it's satisfying on one level, but after a while...what's the point?  Sure, I'm raking in money hand over foot..but what's the point?  I can buy anything..and don't really want to.  I can afford the most lavish of foods..that don't really fill my stomach any better than common fare, even if it does taste better.  I can deck myself out in the best looking duds..only to have them taken away when it attracts the ire of nobles/templars/merchants/"you're breaking my immerzionz!!11" players.

 Then again, if you're a solo character making all the 'sid for the purpose of using it as starting funds for an eventual plot or many, that will imvolve other players or the player base in general...go for it.  If you do it an succeed, kudos!  If you do it and only get so-so results, kudos anyway; you at least made the attempt to move into a maker and shaker position.  Keep it up.  If you do it and fail i.e. become scrab-chow...well that money gets absorbed by Nenyuk anyway and no one's the wiser.

[Cutthroat]

Wealth is useless if you're not having fun, which is what playing a game is all about. We're not 'sid farmers and obsidian coins can't be sold on eBay. So what Vessol said.

Also, wealth is useless without something to back it up. A commoner with no job who is supposed to be fairly poor in the normal setting, will be treated like he is fairly poor - and if he has noble stipends in the bank, he's bound to annoy someone who's supposed to have noble stipends in the bank... so what Pale Horse said.

Yes, you can make insane amounts of money doing menial tasks. I'll tell you, though, every lone commoner I've seen get insanely rich, I've also never seen them again after a while, and the other characters never remember them when they go. Those lone commoners that avoid joining clans (or even a group of independent commoners) just die in obscurity, no matter how financially successful they have become. They came, they added nothing to any character's life, and then they disappeared. That doesn't seem very exciting to me, and I guess that's also why my most favorite characters have been in clans and groups.

[jcljules]

My first few PCs were all basically barter-abusing 'sid farming traders. And yup, nobody remembers them or cares about them. I don't either, and I've never played an independently wealthy character after that.

[deviant storm]

I feel as if I'm playing a whole different game than the OP. Really, I've never been able to acquire vast sums of money. With any character.

Maybe it's because mine were usually after X amount of sid, for a purpose. Even if that purpose was just getting enough food and water to last until the next time he/she could go out and try again. And it always seemed as if certain npc critters were laying in wait for my character. I don't know how many character's I've lost to trying to glass mine.

And now it seems the mining office only accepts a certain amount of sid/glass per day. In total.

I don't know how people manage to get so much coin. I've not been able to do it. There were occasions I wanted to stay inside the city and pursue other rp for my character yet his or her needs meant I needed sid to feed him or her. Maybe I just fale at all this, but I really hate it when this subject comes up. It usually means staff does something about it and my few independent characters face being too poverty-stricken to live. Which in and of itself is interesting rp but you get tired of it after a while. Plus, you have hopes for what you might want your character to accomplish...

[AmandaGreathouse]

I feel as if I'm playing a whole different game than the OP. Really, I've never been able to acquire vast sums of money. With any character.

Maybe it's because mine were usually after X amount of sid, for a purpose. Even if that purpose was just getting enough food and water to last until the next time he/she could go out and try again. And it always seemed as if certain npc critters were laying in wait for my character. I don't know how many character's I've lost to trying to glass mine.

And now it seems the mining office only accepts a certain amount of sid/glass per day. In total.

I don't know how people manage to get so much coin. I've not been able to do it. There were occasions I wanted to stay inside the city and pursue other rp for my character yet his or her needs meant I needed sid to feed him or her. Maybe I just fale at all this, but I really hate it when this subject comes up. It usually means staff does something about it and my few independent characters face being too poverty-stricken to live. Which in and of itself is interesting rp but you get tired of it after a while. Plus, you have hopes for what you might want your character to accomplish...

This.

I've had a couple of independent merchant characters, couple of independent rangers, too. Some of them extremely popular and lasting for hours/day played over the course of RL months. And I've yet to have a single one of my PCs have even enough for a tent at one time outside the merchants starting coin. Though I have to admit, my pcs usually do the least dangerous things they can think of, and usually do only the absolute minimum needed to get by because, like me, if they can socialize and have their basic needs met, they don't tend to aspire to much more. Unless it's toward specific ends.

ie:
Let me do X, Y, and Z double my usual time over C amount of IC weeks to be able to get [a new tattoo, the salary for a hunter if a merchant pc, my apartment rent, a pinch of spice, etc].

But I -especially- agree with the shit about critters hanging out -right- by the places that, logically would be -highly- populated with people trying to earn the same living and would have likely worked together at some point to drive them back.

OOCly, I know players, who I know aren't twinking or breaking any rules, who have around 50,000 sid in the bank with their longer-lived PCs that say 'Oh, it's -easy- to make money on Arm. It's -too- easy.'

My only response 'Yeah, but at what cost?'.

I'd rather play a broke as character that has the social network to do whatever the hell she pleases than to spend my time spam-mining/foraging/salting/shit-shovelling/crafting etc for a PC who knows no-one and has no impact on the IC world with the exception of draining resources other PCs need/could use.

/minirant.

[Qzzrbl]

My only response 'Yeah, but at what cost?'.

What's the cost again?

<Edit for>: Just realized I need to read the entirety of posts before responding.

[Gimfalisette]

It is very, very easy to make coin when you have no social restrictions on doing so. That is why grebbers are often rich, whilst nobles and templars (noobles especially) are almost uniformly poor. Yes, it is ridiculous.

The only solution at present is for grebbers to consciously refrain from making so much money.

[My 2 sids]

Well, the thing is in a hierarchical society money is second to class.  That is, just because one can make money it doesn't mean one can spend money.  Living in a Capitalistic free society I think it's really hard for players not to equate money with power... but, truthfully in a hierarchical society it wouldn't make that big of difference.  

Instead of trying to control the amount of wealth everyone accumulates we need more social reminders that wealth can buy privileged and the occasional bribe...  but it can't "get things done"  --- only power associated with class can do that.


If a few leadership PCs would start flat out refusing bribes from commoners... you'd have a vastly different game.


What's happening is that there are players who (because we live in a free society) have this mindset that "If I put my time and energy into this commoner/ half-elf/ 'rinith/ magicker...  than my PC should be able to become powerful so I get the feeling of winning at Arm".   Such an attitude flies in the face of a world where "you didn't have the right parents, too bad.  That was the lot you were cast, work hard and your reward is maybe a chance to squeek out a sad and pathetic life" is said to be the law of the land.

[staggerlee]

It is very, very easy to make coin when you have no social restrictions on doing so. That is why grebbers are often rich, whilst nobles and templars (noobles especially) are almost uniformly poor. Yes, it is ridiculous.

The only solution at present is for grebbers to consciously refrain from making so much money.

The solution, both temporary and long term, is here.

While I agree that it's a concern, I think that the best solution isn't reworking the economy so much as enforcing rp. You'll never have a flawless game economy or code system that can't be abused. The problems demonstrated in the "Glasshacking Records" thread could largely be solved by a community that fosters roleplaying, and perhaps stricter enforcement.

Nobles receive a lot of negative attention if they take advantage of the code in order to get rich. Grebbers don't, therefore, grebbers are rich. The solution isn't to nerf glasshacking, it's to apply the same standards of rp across the board, regardless of social status.

[Gimfalisette]

Well, the thing is in a hierarchical society money is second to class.  That is, just because one can make money it doesn't mean one can spend money.  Living in a Capitalistic free society I think it's really hard for players not to equate money with power... but, truthfully in a hierarchical society it wouldn't make that big of difference.   

This is an assertion not fully based on the historical record. Those at the top of the hierarchy in some systems (e.g. Victorian Britain) may have tried to put on the air of non-wealth by flaunting all the old they owned in comparison to the new stuff that the nouveau riche owned--but that did not mean they were not wealthy. It just meant they weren't new at being wealthy.

Money is ALWAYS power, in all systems. And the Zalanthan system is no exception.

[My 2 sids]

This is an assertion not fully based on the historical record. Those at the top of the hierarchy in some systems (e.g. Victorian Britain) may have tried to put on the air of non-wealth by flaunting all the old they owned in comparison to the new stuff that the nouveau riche owned--but that did not mean they were not wealthy. It just meant they weren't new at being wealthy.

Money is ALWAYS power, in all systems. And the Zalanthan system is no exception.

If that were true, than one could buy the title of noble. 

I'm not saying wealth and power don't go hand in hand.  What I _am_ saying is that this player idea that there are no glass ceilings so one as one can afford to pay people off goes against what it means to have a cast-bassed system.

Cast system means blood is thicker than money

[jcljules]

I've always found that with socially connected characters who are relatively high in the hierarchy, you can manage to get a lot of the services for free that you'd otherwise have to pay for. Who's more powerful? An indie merchant PC who nobody knows who has 50,000 'sids? Or a socially active noble's aide with lots of friends and status?

I've played the former and in my experience the second one always wins.

[Gimfalisette]

Sure, you can get some stuff for free if you're socially powerful; stuff like clothing, weapons, drinks, food, even maybe housing. Stuff that, playing a noble, you probably don't really need all that much--since you receive the very basics for free. Where the money problem really comes into play for nobles (and templars) is in pursuing larger plots. If you want to build a shop, or wage a war, or construct a wagon, or write a series of books, or even make a collection of all the silly glass trinkets you can find, then you are going to need money to do that. Wages (and bonuses) for employees and partisans come from the noble's personal funds as well.

Sometimes, this is why nobles don't seem to do anything--because they're in a bind of actually needing money more than other PCs need money, in order to pursue plotlines for the good of the game--and yet they also have far more social restrictions on making money. Even the most creative of players feel unduly constrained by this aspect of playing a noble. It's extremely frustrating and definitely contributes to the premature storage of many noble and templar PCs.

[Gimfalisette]

What I'm basically saying is that it's all well and good to talk about how (virtually) the world of Zalanthas should be played; but the world is not actually coded that way, thus, players (being human) don't play that way. We keep trying to get players to go against what is actually human nature (finding ways to max out the economic system), rather than creating a system that codedly reinforces the virtual reality of the world.

If grebbers shouldn't be able to make 2k, or 5k, or 10k a week (any of those levels is currently obtainable, and is vastly greater than what the typical noble/templar receives as a salary) because it's not in accordance with the virtual world of Zalanthas, then the code shouldn't allow it. Obviously we'd want to have the desires of those who only want to play indies taken into account, and the needs of casual players. But being indie and/or casual shouldn't give a player a free pass to Make All The Coin You Want While Ignoring The World Land.

[My 2 sids]

The problem is that one needs to make that much to survive independently.

Besides, players have to take some responsibility.   Not everyone should get the chance to bribe or build huge spy networks.

[Gimfalisette]

The problem is that one needs to make that much to survive independently.

Besides, players have to take some responsibility.   Not everyone should get the chance to bribe or build huge spy networks.

The only things any PC needs to actually, codedly survive are food and water. But it is very easy for grebbers to make far more than enough for just food and water--enough to rent the most luxurious apartment, wear silk clothing, sniff a lot of spice and drink a lot of booze, and regularly acquire new armor and weapons.

Players may "have to take some responsibility," but if the code doesn't make them, then they actually don't have to.

[My 2 sids]

Then Nenyuk only offers them one room hovels,  have the nobility come down hard on non-clanned commoners wearing silk,  you know you start to add up small things like food, water, and not being kicked out of the bar every day... suddenly you find it easier to snark on friends about whose smoking what.

Players do this because others do it... change the norm and you'll find fewer and fewer players doing that (social norms are how we deal with twinkage, right?)

[Gimfalisette]

Nenyuk only offering them one-room hovels would require a change to apartment code. Nobility coming down hard will result only in those playing commoners even more thoroughly avoiding upper-class PCs.

And no, we don't generally deal with coded twinkage via social norms; we deal with coded twinkage codedly. (See: recent changes to charge.) We deal with roleplayed violations of documentation via social norms.

[Halcyon]

My experience playing very wealthy independants is that there is a glass ceiling on buying all the really big ticket items or organizing certain events. I found a balance in the moneymaker characters pairing not only with groups of poor warrior specialists, but nobles or other leadership types.  In a way, it became for me a different kind of "group role", being the guy who could generate the coin to fuel the local storyline, but who couldnt accomplish any of it alone.

These experiences are also why I have less pity now for abusive-rp'd nobles who flounder.  All they really need to do is find a merchant or serious grebber and keep that resource happy.

[roughneck]

I don't think it's that bad, really.

I have buddies with their own little business running a roofing crew or cutting grass and doing grunt work that do as well or better than some stiff with a good job at an office.  The trade off is the guy at the office has an easier life.

You don't get rich working for somebody else, as true in Zalanthas as it is in real life.

It is crazy that nobles are generally more hard up for cash than jonny ranger or dirty rinther though.  If the ranger or rinther knows what they're doing anyways.

Grandfather Kadius and Salarr probably didn't spend their whole lives working for an established merchant house.

EDIT-ADD: If I was a merchant house family member or high-up and absolutely could not find people to hire or there was some real competition I'd hire some people to make independent grebber's lives difficult.  Push them into employment with someone that will make life secure.

[spicemustflow]

Make masks hide the descriptions and there you go. Raiding is fun again, and average commoner is scared shitless of leaving the gates alone. No more insanely rich grebbers.

[Qzzrbl]

Make masks hide the descriptions and there you go. Raiding is fun again, and average commoner is scared shitless of leaving the gates alone. No more insanely rich grebbers.

FTW

[jcljules]

Make masks hide the descriptions and there you go. Raiding is fun again, and average commoner is scared shitless of leaving the gates alone. No more insanely rich grebbers.

FTW

Except make an examine command that reveals mdesc with a delay. So if someone starts examining you, you can lop their head off.