Economy

[spicemustflow]

Actually, no need to hassle the coders with masks. This is an encouragement for raiders of every kind and sort to leave no witnesses. Paint the sands red and so on. That way, the road to a deposit won't remind people of a tropical beach, but of deadly desert that the place is supposed to be.

[roughneck]

the road to a deposit won't remind people of a tropical beach, but of deadly desert that the place is supposed to be.

Put gith back on the north road too!  or something!  painful!

[musashi]

I think you may be a bit off base Gimf. In old world Europe, and old world Japan both, the merchants and bankers of the day were usually quite a bit more wealthy than the nobility, and the nobility were usually heavily in debt to them because for a noble, it wasn't about how much you had, it was about how much you spent.

My main concern isn't so much with the nobles and templar being short on change; I feel like they should be having to sniff out bribes from the wealthy folks in the classes below them to maintain their lifestyles and move up in their own circles, since that's more or less how it's always happened among nobility in history.

But I do think it's a bit unrealistic that an independant grebber can gather up so much loot so quickly that you end up with GMH recruiters trying to woo them to join, instead of things being the other way around.

I also have to say it seems like there is a huge descrepency between what you can make grebbing, and what being paid a salary will get you. Sure sure, joining a clan gives you food and water and a bunk somewhere (usally) but when you're going from making in excess of 5,000 'sids a month grebbing, down to a 150-300 'sid salary ...

[flurry]

I was thinking, a while back, that it would be really cool if the game were such that you could actually be impressed with a character who'd accumulated a great deal of coins. As it is now, there seem to so many abusive ways to rake in sids that wealth often seems fairly ordinary. Which is sort of strange, for a resource-deprived world.

I like the idea of the nouveau riche being put in their place by the entrenched power, though.

[FantasyWriter]

two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

[Gimfalisette]

Odd idea that might work: Code Nenyuki clerks with a "report my personal bank account balance" function. At the bank, Amos would type "report balance" and the Nenyuki clerk would say it out loud. Then, a templar or noble could make Amos the Grebber come to the bank with them, get a report on his account, and demand a bribe because he's got too much coin.

[flurry]

two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

Some time ago, I was thinking a solution might be for Nenyuk to somehow deal with it in the banks. Capping the balances probably wouldn't make sense (after all, are they going to turn away money?), but maybe they could require bribes fees for an especially large balance.

[FantasyWriter]

I would love for Nenyuk to be active and the occasional account show up a little short.  I mean who remembers exactly how much they have in their back account without writing skills?

Code Select Expand

The round-bellied Kadian agent asks the  portly Nenyuki agent in southern accented Sirihish,
 "Hey... I hear that jeweler Tatalia's been flooding tha market with cheap-ass jewelry lately.... think you could um... help pu' a  li'l pressure on 'er?

The portly Nenyuki agent strokes thoughfully at his beard.

Passing over a massive purse, the round-bellied Kadian agent gives the portly Nenyuki agent many coins.

The portly Nenyuki agent nods once, a sly grin crossing his face as he calls a passing server over for another round.


Not to mention the fun in playing a "bookie" type role.

[Adhira]

two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

I see nothing stopping players making their own realistic IC attempts at these two points.

[LoD]

Odd idea that might work: Code Nenyuki clerks with a "report my personal bank account balance" function. At the bank, Amos would type "report balance" and the Nenyuki clerk would say it out loud. Then, a templar or noble could make Amos the Grebber come to the bank with them, get a report on his account, and demand a bribe because he's got too much coin.

Building on this -- it would be interesting if templars had a way they'd be able to simply request a list of this information from the Nenyuki whenever they wished that would include any citizen of Allanak.  The templars could then use this information to approach said characters (likely commoners) and discuss with them how they were planning on using their good economic fortune to honor His will.

This could help work on many levels.  Not only for taxation purposes, but it could also be used by templars to network characters together where maybe one needs wealth and the other needs people/purpose.

Code Select Expand

The "Wine and Dine" Tavern [N]
The lanky, brown-haired templar is here, sitting at a small table.

The swarthy, heavy set man has arrived from the west.
A human soldier has arrived from the west.

Tugging his arm from a human soldier's grasp, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "Do you mind?  I'll already agreed to come."

The lanky, brown-haired templar lifts his gaze from the folds of a small brown journal, snapping it shut with a squeeze of his hand.

Lifting a hand casually toward the swarthy, heavy set man, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "Ah, Merchant Dochun, good of you to come.  Please sit."

The lanky, brown-haired templar shifts the fall of his robe as he shifts his weight, gesturing toward a chair at his table.

Brushing a hand along the trim of his elegant black silk sleeves, the swarthy, heavy set man nods and makes his way toward the table.

The swarthy, heavy set man sits at a small table.

At a small table, the swarthy, heavy set man asks, in sirihish:
   "How many I be of service this morning, m'lord?"

The lanky, brown-haired templar regards the swarthy, heavy set man briefly, offering a tiny smile before opening the pages of a small brown journal in his left hand.

At a small table, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "You've been quite successful lately."

Inhaling sharply as if to clear his nose, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "I get by, m'lord."

At a small table, his brows lifting quizzically, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "Oh, let's not be modest..."

At a small table, tapping the left page of a small brown journal, the lanky, brown-haired templar says in sirihish:
   "...you are literally having your way with the markets, and His Gloriousness appreciates that you can thrive in His fine city."

At a small table, licking a fat tongue over his lower lip, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "Yes, I've been doing quite well.  How can I help?"

At a small table, pointing toward the swarthy, heavy set man with a slender finger, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "The Highlord is going to allow you the honor of funding a small scouting mission into the western canyons."

At a small table, his features tightening ever so slightly, the swarthy, heavy set man asks, in sirihish:
   "And why am -I- to be entrusted with this honor, m'lord?"

At a small table, his smile suddenly vanishing, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "You're quite right, we could easily find someone else to earn His favor.  I'm -sure- you'll be just fine without it."

The lanky, brown-haired templar's chair creaks softly as he eases back, his left hand idly tracing the outer rim of a medallion of Tektolnes.

At a small table, his features blanching somewhat, the swarthy, heavy set man says, in sirihish:
   "No - no!  I must've been unclear -- I mean to say, I would be happy to fund this expedition, m'lord."

At a small table, slapping the table lightly with his fingertips as he begins to rise, the lanky, brown-haired templar says, in sirihish:
   "I thought you might."

It would likely require some restraint and management over individuals with the power and ability to view such information, but I think that it could add some interesting elements and perhaps even create an environment where people wouldn't be so swift to fatten their bank accounts to the point where they begin to show up on the radar of certain influential or powerful people.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

Building on this -- it would be interesting if templars had a way they'd be able to simply request a list of this information from the Nenyuki whenever they wished that would include any citizen of Allanak.  The templars could then use this information to approach said characters (likely commoners) and discuss with them how they were planning on using their good economic fortune to honor His will.

Yeah, that would be a better way to implement it.

Edited to add: And, nobles who want to pursue a particular project could go to templars and ask them for help in finding out who's got dough to contribute. Thus making a nice little circle of noble-needs-templar-needs-commoner-needs-noble, and so on.

[Lizzie]

two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

I see nothing stopping players making their own realistic IC attempts at these two points.

GMH heads are often reminded by the staff that "independent competitors" aren't competition, because GMHs have the monopoly on GMH-only goods. So it is not uncommon for an "independent competitor" to acquire much more wealth, much more quickly, than GMH family members, because -they- can sell at the GMH shops in addition to all the other shops, while GMH family members are more restricted.

[FantasyWriter]

two thing could fix that:
1) Templars and Nobles start "confiscating" wealth.
2) Staff allow GMH heads to move against independent competitors.

I see nothing stopping players making their own realistic IC attempts at these two points.

I've been asked to back off in such a role by my uppers because a single commoner crafter "wasn't worth the trouble" when in fact they were doing their best to corner the non-virtual market.

[Gimfalisette]

And, in a strictly IC way, it doesn't make sense for Kadius (or Salarr or Kurac) to be annoyed at a single commoner crafter who has no access to clan-only recipes. However, because the virtual world isn't the PC world, one or two commoner crafters can really skew the whole city economy toward themselves. Yes, staff should be concerned that there be "room" for indie crafters (or hunters or whatever) in the city--but, agents and nobles and templars gotta live, too, and they need money in order to pursue plots.

Edited again to add: And putting in a way for nobles/templars to independently "tax" commoners who are making too much coin is another non-death way to bring people into line with the virtual world. Non-lethal options are double-plus good.

[Gimfalisette]

Actually, come to think about it, the way Nenyuki banks currently operate seems very out-of-place in the Zalanthan world, because they operate exactly like banks do in any H&S MUD or MMO. There is no risk associated with banking; as long as you're in a civilized place, you always have access to exactly the quantity of coin you deposited; no one can catch you in a lie about your bank account; no one can steal it from you, or murder you for it; etc. Nenyuki banks, in fact, are FAR more accurate, secure, and honorable than any bank I've dealt with in the real world.

[Lizzie]

Actually, come to think about it, the way Nenyuki banks currently operate seems very out-of-place in the Zalanthan world, because they operate exactly like banks do in any H&S MUD or MMO. There is no risk associated with banking; as long as you're in a civilized place, you always have access to exactly the quantity of coin you deposited; no one can catch you in a lie about your bank account; no one can steal it from you, or murder you for it; etc. Nenyuki banks, in fact, are FAR more accurate, secure, and honorable than any bank I've dealt with in the real world.

You also can have 200,000 sids in the bank for 10 years and not earn a single sid in interest. And, when you die, your family cannot inherit anything, unless you are one of the privileged to have a GMH, Noble, or other appropriate Clan account. Furthermore, even if you do happen to belong to one of those privileged clans, you might not have access to the funds, if you lack the appropriate banker-flag on your account.

On the other hand, once you -do- have banker-flag access, you could strip the entire account of every last sid, and put it in your personal account. You'd probably get caught, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

There are checks and balances to some extent, it just doesn't extend beyond certain limits.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it. Why bother to take that contract, or go for the big theft, or try to raise coin as a merchant, or do anything at all, essentially, if Mr. Templar is going to decide you have too much and relieve you of your earnings?

[Gimfalisette]

I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it.

I'd certainly never want to see an indie taxed into "poverty." However, taking 5k from a 10k+ bank balance? Sure.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it.

I'd certainly never want to see an indie taxed into "poverty." However, taking 5k from a 10k+ bank balance? Sure.

It amounts to the same thing. Removing a prime motivation for action from the game.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it. Why bother to take that contract, or go for the big theft, or try to raise coin as a merchant, or do anything at all, essentially, if Mr. Templar is going to decide you have too much and relieve you of your earnings?

There are ways besides a bank to store money.  There are always bookies nd investors, too
Massing coins does nothing to better the game. Spending coins, on the other hand makes everyone happy.

[staggerlee]

I don't like the notion of taxing independents into forced poverty.

If you want to encourage further tavern sitting, this is a good way to do it. Why bother to take that contract, or go for the big theft, or try to raise coin as a merchant, or do anything at all, essentially, if Mr. Templar is going to decide you have too much and relieve you of your earnings?

I've noticed two common cries on this board:

1) We want a harsher game world!
2) Why are things so hard for indie (read: unemployed) characters?!

[FantasyWriter]

2) Why are things so hard for indie (read: unemployed) characters?!

Wow.. when was this? Indies are much easier than clanned chracters in most cases.

[Gimfalisette]

If an indie doesn't want their coin taken--and it does happen even now, except it's easier for an indie to cry poverty to a templar since there's no coded check on it--then there are always ways to make sure it doesn't happen. Such as: Go make a loan to a noble, or preemptively bribe the templar, or actually spend the coin, or fund your own project.

But as FW said, massing money provides exactly zip to the rest of the game world.

[Salt Merchant]

1. It wouldn't just appy to independents. Why should crafter Amos of House Kadius be ambitious and earn himself some coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket. Why should any character want to accept a large sum of coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket.

2. This is about motivation in the game. Bribes, pay, the big score, all become more or less meaningless. This source of motivation is already battered enough by not really being able to own any property in the game other than what one wears. Now take away bank accounts too? Characters might as well just relieve themselves on any piles of coin they find.

3. Carry the coin in your pack? Coin is heavy. And militia and templars have a habit of searching packs.

[Gimfalisette]

Amos is protected by Kadius. That's part of the benefit of being in a clan; your boss will go to bat for you, assuming you're minimally valuable. Logically, there should be risk to playing indie, but usually in practice there is not much.

Wanting motivation in the game doesn't get to be a magickal amulet that protects a player from being affected by the game world and the virtual circumstances.

I think this is a fine example of players being win-focused rather than story-focused.