PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE MAKE ASSESS -V NOT AUTOMATICALLY TELL PEOPLE OOC THAT SOMEONE IS A BREED!!!!
No way around it I think, boyo.
Half-elves are coded as a different race, so an assess -v will return them as being "of their race".
It's a way for people to cheat, sure, but what can you do?
Report someone if you think they were being a jerk.
If you want to play a human, play a human.
If you want to play a breed who looks SO MUCH like a human that he can REASONABLY pass as a human, just roll human race and be a breed in your imagination.
Otherwise, you're just trying to get half-elf agility and other bonuses without having to suffer the IC consequences.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 01:13:46 AM
Otherwise, you're just trying to get half-elf agility and other bonuses without having to suffer the IC consequences.
This is sort of how I perceive it sometimes.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 01:13:46 AM
If you want to play a human, play a human.
If you want to play a breed who looks SO MUCH like a human that he can REASONABLY pass as a human, just roll human race and be a breed in your imagination.
Otherwise, you're just trying to get half-elf agility and other bonuses without having to suffer the IC consequences.
Well said.
/golfclap
Quote from: Eloran on May 31, 2009, 01:15:22 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 01:13:46 AM
Otherwise, you're just trying to get half-elf agility and other bonuses without having to suffer the IC consequences.
This is sort of how I perceive it sometimes.
Gotta remember. Some half-elves look -far- more like elves, some far more like humans. Depends on which traits they gain from their parents the most.
Also a person could most likely hide they are a half-elf if they really wanted to look human-ish, and did look more human.
And ass -v does not mean you can instantly notice "oh your a breed hiding it!".
From the help file:
QuoteBorn of mixed elven and human parentage, half-elves share many of the traits of both races. Tall, roughly between 70 to 82 inches in height, and possessed of deeply etched features, half-elves can resemble their elven parents strongly. On the other hand, half-elves are bulkier and somewhat more hardy than elves, and so can resemble their human parents. Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colors of both parents.
Or set it up to where if you see someone of your own race you still see their age relative to their race and not you.
It is an OOC way to gain IC information. No less than Sally telling Jane on AIM that Bill is a breed.
lol
a hard-coded feature is now OOC.
I like it.
BACKSTAB IS TOTALLY AN OOC WAY TO KILL PEOPLE, GOSH!
Don't be a dick man, you know what he meant.
It's crappy if you assess -v a person with "human" in their desc who looks like a human and talks like a human but use the information gleaned from assess -v to determine they are a half elf, as opposed to any clues given in their mdesc.
Not really the same, Synthesis.
He's talking about information being gleaned automatically, and sometimes even accidentally, even though said information is not readily apparent, because of a nuance of how the wording in assess -v displays information.
As noted, half-elves can pass for either elves or humans. They aren't drastically out of place. Just a glance doesn't always tell you, "Oh, they have elvish blood in them.", particularly if they are going out of their way to hide it. The mentality won't change, but that doesn't make them easily recognizeable, unless you're a bender.
Don't try to make him look stupid for the request, it's actually fairly legitimate.
I think there's some cases where:
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 01:13:46 AM
Otherwise, you're just trying to get half-elf agility and other bonuses without having to suffer the IC consequences.
Is not true. I've seen breeds passing as humans fine, for very well RPed reasons, and I applaud anyone for playing them that way.
I will also applaud anyone who IGNORES THE FACT THAT YOU CAN TELL THEY'RE A BREED thought asses -v. If you can't tell from their mdesc, they're human.
Thank you. :-)
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 01:40:58 AM
lol
a hard-coded feature is now OOC.
I like it.
BACKSTAB IS TOTALLY AN OOC WAY TO KILL PEOPLE, GOSH!
Consider the following.
Assess -v informs you that a given character is a certain age pertaining to their race. If they are the same race as you, it conveniently compares your ages.
Character A has no idea Character B is a half elf by either his sdesc or mdesc. There may be hints, both written in the descs and in how Character B is RPed, but it's not blatant. This is obviously allowed, both by the docs and by Imm approval of half-elf descriptions that do not mention half-elfness.
If B is human: Character A is young. He types assess -v. His character now knows "Character B is older than you." He now knows that Character B is older than him.
If B is a half-elf: Character A is young. He types assess -v. His character now knows "Character B appears to be in adulthood for his race." He now knows that Character B is older than him.
But wait! Character B's
player knows that through the way the code works, you only get the "appears to be in (Age category) for his race" if you assess -v someone who is a different race. And Character B's
player knows for sure that he rolled a human when he wrote up his current character.
Say this is going on in an interview for PC B to join PC A's clan, which only hires humans. PC A turns down PC B because of what
the player learned through assess -v.
This is a problem, because, the player's character ICly does not necessarily know what the player himself OOCly knows. Because, like, they're not the same person. They live in different worlds. You see, Armageddon is a roleplaying game. Funny how roleplaying works like that.
To the OP, I heartily agree, because this is a clear case of "to fool the character, you have to fool the player."
Sounds a whole lot like trying to avoid the IC consequences while getting the half-elf racial bonuses.
That's because you're listening to your own blathering in your ears based around trying to win the game rather than reading very well phrased explanations to you.
If you want to play in Clan A, and you know Clan A doesn't hire breeds, you probably shouldn't pick half-elf.
Crying about it once you get caught is just sad.
That hasn't been mentioned at all in the explanations you received.
You're throwing around arguments that have nothing to do with anything.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 02:19:54 AM
If you want to play in Clan A, and you know Clan A doesn't hire breeds, you probably shouldn't pick half-elf.
Crying about it once you get caught is just sad.
Who's crying?
What if you want to play in Clan A and hide your blood? What if you're only part elf and don't know it?
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 31, 2009, 02:01:20 AM
Say this is going on in an interview for PC B to join PC A's clan, which only hires humans. PC A turns down PC B because of what the player learned through assess -v.
Totally not an argument that was brought up.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 02:27:55 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 31, 2009, 02:01:20 AM
Say this is going on in an interview for PC B to join PC A's clan, which only hires humans. PC A turns down PC B because of what the player learned through assess -v.
Totally not an argument that was brought up.
And no one is crying about it. We are saying its rather out of character.
As if you can not tell by the main desc, and short desc. You should not be able to judge their age and go.. OH MY GOD THIS MAN LIED TO ME!
And the RP would be amazingly fun if you ask me. Attempting to keep it all hidden, secret, and pretend to be human. Though torn inside.
And if you get caught.. now that only adds more RP fun.
Quote from: tortall on May 31, 2009, 01:54:55 AM
Is not true. I've seen breeds passing as humans fine, for very well RPed reasons, and I applaud anyone for playing them that way.
I will also applaud anyone who IGNORES THE FACT THAT YOU CAN TELL THEY'RE A BREED thought asses -v. If you can't tell from their mdesc, they're human.
To add. This is a good thought, a good roleplayer would not take what ass -v said IC if they couldn't see through the lies with the short and main descriptions.
Hey Synth... do you actually have an argument against it being changed?
If I want to play that my character picked up on some subtle clues about your "hidden breed," it's damn well within my rights.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
If I want to play that my character picked up on some subtle clues about your "hidden breed," it's damn well within my rights.
What if there are no subtle clues?
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
If I want to play that my character picked up on some subtle clues about your "hidden breed," it's damn well within my rights.
Then read the main desc and watch for the clues most people put in there.
Would you approve of the code throwing out guild labels, too?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 31, 2009, 02:38:26 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
If I want to play that my character picked up on some subtle clues about your "hidden breed," it's damn well within my rights.
Then read the main desc and watch for the clues most people put in there.
Would you approve of the code throwing out guild labels, too?
Most people don't describe themselves in sufficient detail for such subtle clues as may be apparent to appear in the main description. As such, the code provides a medium for ascertaining these facts.
Incidentally, ass -v is not the only way to figure these types of things out by the code.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 02:46:34 AM
Most people don't describe themselves in sufficient detail for such subtle clues as may be apparent to appear in the main description.
o rly?
Okay...I'll give you a "probably."
Let's not argue over that point, because it's -definitely- not one either of us is going to win.
That's because sometimes it ISN'T READILY APPARENT AND HAS TO BE FOUND OUT VIA IC MEANS.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 02:46:34 AM
Most people don't describe themselves in sufficient detail for such subtle clues as may be apparent to appear in the main description. As such, the code provides a medium for ascertaining these facts.
I haven't seen this. All the half-elves I've seen have had race-appropriate descriptions, regardless of whether or not they labeled themselves as half-elf. I trust the Imms to sort this sort of thing out--they approve half-elves who look like humans, but I'll assume they won't approve the application if your half-elf's sdesc is "a stocky, muscle-ripped man." And maybe people will be more willing to have half-elven features if they know they're not putting a sign on their character that says "assess -v me plz."
There are other issues with assess -v hinging on race. It works in reverse, which is why your solution "roll a human and play him like a half elf" doesn't work. If a PC sees a human who's tall, skinny and angular and acts like a schizophrenic loner/desperate-for-acceptance, and they assess -v, they'll never think "maybe Amos is a half elf" because the code told them that he's human. If Amos ever wants to reveal his half-elfness to somebody, they simply won't believe him.
And why is it that humans can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as human, but not as elves? Why is it that elves can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as elves, but not as humans? Why do humans and elves get to have this magic race determining button and dwarves, muls, and half-giants don't?
Why do you assume that people who roll half-elves but try to blend as human are twinking? Obviously, they wrote their character this way for a reason. Could it be true that people playing a roleplaying game did it for roleplaying reasons? Maybe they have an interesting idea for their character that demands an incognito half-elf? Do they really deserve to have their role spoiled by an arbitrary command, and by players who use assess -v and say, "Aha! you tried to trick me, but failed. I win!"
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 31, 2009, 03:20:58 AM
And why is it that humans can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as human, but not as elves? Why is it that elves can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as elves, but not as humans? Why do humans and elves get to have this magic race determining button and dwarves, muls, and half-giants don't?
That's the only good argument in favor I've seen so far.
Here's a con argument:
Fix it so that the output reads "He is middle-aged for a <race>."
e.g. He is middle-aged for a human.
Problem solved.
I think that it should just say "He looks younger than you." An elf who is older than this human, therefore, would still look younger due to the maturity differences. So on and so forth. Do it by a relative age standard and maturity of races.
-That- would fix it.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 31, 2009, 03:29:14 AM
Fix it so that the output reads "He is middle-aged for a <race>."
Make it like that for all races looking at all races including their own.
That would all depend on the original intent behind the usage of the ass -v command, which really can't be determined until the Staff come up with a consensus on it.
Either ass -v can be used to glean subtle cues about a person's race, or it can't.
There's really nothing more to be discussed, at this point. Until someone on Staff comes down and gives a verdict, it's a grey area.
Considering it now says 'for his race' rather than 'for a dwarf', I think it's pretty safe to say that it's not supposed to be the command for discerning race.
The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason. It's not OOC information.
-- X
Cool. Can I have a way to discern guilds for jobs too?
Aww, don't be a sore thread-loser.
Aww, don't worry, I don't feel too bad, Synthesis. You still can't beat the game.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 31, 2009, 05:09:40 AMCool. Can I have a way to discern guilds for jobs too?
No.
-- X
I thought everyone knew about assess -g
Imm ruling is Imm ruling, but I've got to disagree with you on this one Synth. I think there are plenty of RP reasons to play a half-elf that tries to pass as as another race. Good reasons, in fact, and well-supported by the docs. To say that anyone who does this is trying to twink with the half-elf racials ... doesn't make sense to me. Do you believe everyone picks dwarves because of their stats, and not because playing out various dwarven foci and racial attitudes is interesting? Half-elf angst and social problems is their point of interest, not their basis for twinkage, imo.
I'd passingly considered playing a half-elf hiding his racial heritage, but this thread has kindly warned me away from trying it, so I'm glad of that. I have no interest in the main thrust of a character concept being trumped by the first person with assess -v. And for the record, other than a few vague guesses, I have no idea what or how good the half-elf racials are so, no, if I had played that concept, I wouldn't have been trying to pwn.
You're welcome to play a half-elf hiding your racial heritage. Just make your race be "human" or "elf" instead of half-elf.
-- X
Oh, also: if you really want to have more half-elven traits (and even stats), you could submit a special application for a half-elf that rolls as a half-elf and then is changed to a human with some staff intervention.
-- X
Huh. Ok! If that's allowed, I'll put it back onto my list of possible concepts.
It just feels -more- gamey to me to be a "half-elf" human, but if that's not the case, then I'm "coo" with that.
Thanks for the clarifications, Mr. X.
Why would it be more gamey? Humans are the blank-slate, heinz-57 race... They have no assets or deficits as a result of their race, and are also the perfect platform for playing internal conflict and confusion without having to worry about racially-appropriate gameplay.
-- X
Well, I didn't say "twinky" for a reason. And again, this is just coming from a relative noob. To my simple mind, I had previously thought, "If you're a half-elf, you have to pick half-elf, because that's what you are. If you picked human, but said you were a half-elf, it would be like picking dwarf, and saying you were a mul." It wasn't a logical argument, just how it seemed to my noobie eyes. Obviously, I'm reassessing that opinion. : ) I just didn't realize we weren't so restricted by the code, and so the thought of "contradicting" the code hadn't seemed a legit possibility to me. (And yeah, I know 'dwarf as mu'l would still be a no-no :D ).
I dunno, I don't really mind the ass -v thing. There has to be something about half-elves that make them look different. It's probably some ingrained thing, like IRL how you can tell a Chinese man from a Japanese if you (rudely) assess them really closely. They would have the same sdesc, same mdesc, but there's just something different. Humanish HE's are probably taller, skinnier, with more almond shaped or pointier ears, but not enough so to be written in the mdesc. There's also things like subtle body language; considering the mandatory emo nature of half-elves, you can tell by looking at him close enough that he's a little self-conscious.
Quote from: SMuz on May 31, 2009, 12:15:38 PM
like IRL how you can tell a Chinese man from a Japanese
My oh my.
Quote from: SMuz on May 31, 2009, 12:15:38 PM
There has to be something about half-elves that make them look different. It's probably some ingrained thing, like IRL how you can tell a Chinese man from a Japanese if you (rudely) assess them really closely.
Wait what?
Quote from: Xygax on May 31, 2009, 05:05:49 AM
The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason. It's not OOC information.
Care to explain how?
What are you doing when you assess -v a person? Are you intensely studying their facial structure and build for any hints as to their race? What is it an assess -v yields that a look does not, other than age, height and in this case, race?
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 31, 2009, 03:20:58 AM
And why is it that humans can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as human, but not as elves? Why is it that elves can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as elves, but not as humans? Why do humans and elves get to have this magic race determining button and dwarves, muls, and half-giants don't?
Lol, pretty much my point. People are easily able to tell when someone is of their own race, but can't really tell the difference between two other races. Like a Thai can tell if someone else claiming to be Thai is really Vietnamese, but a Caucasian European can't always tell the difference between either if it's subtle.
It works realistically. Assess does what assessing someone else should do; you look at them closely and you can tell that they're not of your race when you do. An elf won't be able to tell a human from a half-elf, because they both look the same to him, but a human should naturally know that he's not of the same race. A human should be able to tell just from height and weight that the half-elf is not human.
I do see the angle on assess -v not being used to pick up race, though, I do feel that if you're half-elf looks so much like a human or so much like an elf that nobody could tell it by your sdesc or mdesc then you picked the wrong race at creation.
Quote from: Majikal on May 31, 2009, 12:56:48 PM
I do feel that if you're half-elf looks so much like a human or so much like an elf that nobody could tell it by your sdesc or mdesc then you picked the wrong race at creation.
Really? Why?
IRL I'm quite certain you've met people of mixed racial descent whom you could barely distinguish in the picking up of ques. Granted, there aren't lithe sharps with razor-like ears running about in Arizona, but still.
Quote from: SMuz on May 31, 2009, 12:52:49 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 31, 2009, 03:20:58 AM
And why is it that humans can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as human, but not as elves? Why is it that elves can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as elves, but not as humans? Why do humans and elves get to have this magic race determining button and dwarves, muls, and half-giants don't?
Lol, pretty much my point. People are easily able to tell when someone is of their own race, but can't really tell the difference between two other races. Like a Thai can tell if someone else claiming to be Thai is really Vietnamese, but a Caucasian European can't always tell the difference between either if it's subtle.
It works realistically. Assess does what assessing someone else should do; you look at them closely and you can tell that they're not of your race when you do. An elf won't be able to tell a human from a half-elf, because they both look the same to him, but a human should naturally know that he's not of the same race. A human should be able to tell just from height and weight that the half-elf is not human.
This post has made the most sense of all.
Agreed. Well said Smuz.
Quote from: XygaxYou're welcome to range from full-human to half-elf to elf and vary your bloodedness along the way. Do please make sure that your coded race most closely matches the race you appear and live as, however.
If you "appear" as a human -i.e. have human in your sdesc-, but have some elf blood, your race should be human.
Exactly. If you are playing a half-elf that doesn't have any physical signs of being part elf, you should be human. You can still be human and have the half-elf persona of trying to fit in, but still wanting to be independent.
It's good that we got some staff clarification on this.
I think the "half-elves can often pass as either elves or humans" should be removed from the help file, though. It encourages people who want to play this sort of role to roll a half-elf, when apparently they're supposed to roll either elf or human.
Sweet. All those noble houses that don't want elven blood are screwed.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 31, 2009, 05:40:21 PM
I think the "half-elves can often pass as either elves or humans" should be removed from the help file, though. It encourages people who want to play this sort of role to roll a half-elf, when apparently they're supposed to roll either elf or human.
I think its good to keep in there. Some people still like to play half-elves AS half-elves. The help file leaves interpretation of features up to the player for the most part. You could be a half-elf with round eyes and pointy ears, or some other variation of traits, and reasonably pass as either to an untrained eye. Especially if your sdesc is ambiguous with "male" - like ... the lanky, pointy-earred male. Someone might mistake him for an elf (OOC contrivances aside). And he could likely pass himself off as one, if people didn't immediately say in their heads (if he was an elf his sdesc would say elf).
Nobody's saying you can't roll a half-elf and try to pass as a human. We're simply saying that you shouldn't be upset if someone discerns your heritage via whatever means they have available.
Quote from: Wyx on May 31, 2009, 07:51:42 PM
Nobody's saying you can't roll a half-elf and try to pass as a human. We're simply saying that you shouldn't be upset if someone discerns your heritage via whatever means they have available.
No one's getting butthurt man. Some of us just thinking people using assess -v as their sole means to uncovering one's race is a bit flaky. I liken it to guild sniffing. It's just dumb.
Quotevia whatever means they have available.
That's what I was getting at. A well-disguised half-elf who is very very strongly trying to fulfill their roleplay and fit in can get 30 DAYS of gameplay for that awesome roleplay completely removed just because someone who had no idea accidentally notices once while searching for their age or whatever, and decides they suddenly 'noticed' things they didn't before.
It's ridiculous, and while not powergaming, is taking that whole 'code allows it' mentality to the extreme. It's like saying there's no such thing as overhunting simply because there is knowledge that the code will still spawn the things.
Or, as I have known a few PC's to be, a half-elf that -doesn't know- they are a half-elf.
In a world like Zalanthas -- You'd expect most half-elves to be orphans. Who the hell wants'm?
I do see the point of 'play the race you are most similar to' though. It's something that you can add to your bios, add to your RP. There's no real reason that you need the perks/minuses of choosing the half-elven race at creation if you are trying to avoid the IC consequences of being a half-elf by not choosing to put 'half elf' in your sdesc or mdesc.
However -- I don't see a real reason why it should -stay- the way it is, even considering that thought process. While you say it isn't OOC information, Xygax, I fail to see how it isn't. The point of assess -v <person> is to determine the general 'health and fatigue' status of a target. It's also used to compare how tall they are compared to you, and how heavy they are compared to you, and how old they are -compared to you-. While it's easy to say "Well, how can you compare an elf to a human?", how exactly would your character also be able to divine how old an elf is compared to another elf out of thin air?
"He appears old for his race". How the hell would you know that? That sounds like something that would be determined from IC experience, knowing the differences between a young elf and an old elf.
Why not just eliminate 'for his/her race'? "He looks old." "She looks young!" "This codger should be dead by now!"
That way, you aren't race sniffing. ANd you -might- think that elf is old as shit, but in his terms...He's just getting started.
*shrug*
Quote from: Reiloth on May 31, 2009, 09:51:02 PM
"He appears old for his race". How the hell would you know that? That sounds like something that would be determined from IC experience, knowing the differences between a young elf and an old elf.
Why not just eliminate 'for his/her race'? "He looks old." "She looks young!" "This codger should be dead by now!"
That way, you aren't race sniffing. ANd you -might- think that elf is old as shit, but in his terms...He's just getting started.
*shrug*
I agree the command is a little retarded in some aspects, but it is not unique in that respect.
And the role-play argument doesn't really hold water, when people have had similar complaints/issues with many "disguising" features for awhile.
The "assess -v" command lets someone know you are not their race. I don't think I have ever seen or experienced an incident where this has been used negatively, ever. And this is the first time (in the somewhat recent past) that I have seen it come up. If you compare this with issues that repeat themselves almost bi-monthly, it seems like it is really not as big a problem as some people make it out to be.
Comparitively, the Look command has been the bain of disguises since people started wearing hoods/masks. Being a frequent topic on the boards, the "look" command sees through masks, hoods and clothing - similarly disrupting whatever RP the person might have been putting in, all because another character can instantly know who this masked, hooded and facewraped person is.
I imagine that uniformalizing the code in regards to comparatives would be something pretty daunting. Because assess, when done to someone of your race, gives them a comparative age group - Younger then you, older then you, much older then you. Taller then you, many times heavier then you.
If it was simplified into "they look old" "they look heavy", it doesn't provide its (i imagine) more routine function of giving you comparative data. Yes its unfortunate that it spoils a race for some people (likely the reason this thread was started all of a sudden, which also likely gives away someone's character).... but on the same note as earlier, I've never met a half-elf in many years that was pretending to be either full-elf or full-human.
I think it should be expanded upon.
When a noble assess -v's a commoner they should also show that "They appear young for their race."
Quote from: Jenred on May 31, 2009, 10:07:39 PM
I agree the command is a little retarded in some aspects, but it is not unique in that respect.
And the role-play argument doesn't really hold water, when people have had similar complaints/issues with many "disguising" features for awhile.
The "assess -v" command lets someone know you are not their race. I don't think I have ever seen or experienced an incident where this has been used negatively, ever. And this is the first time (in the somewhat recent past) that I have seen it come up. If you compare this with issues that repeat themselves almost bi-monthly, it seems like it is really not as big a problem as some people make it out to be.
Comparitively, the Look command has been the bain of disguises since people started wearing hoods/masks. Being a frequent topic on the boards, the "look" command sees through masks, hoods and clothing - similarly disrupting whatever RP the person might have been putting in, all because another character can instantly know who this masked, hooded and facewraped person is.
I imagine that uniformalizing the code in regards to comparatives would be something pretty daunting. Because assess, when done to someone of your race, gives them a comparative age group - Younger then you, older then you, much older then you. Taller then you, many times heavier then you.
If it was simplified into "they look old" "they look heavy", it doesn't provide its (i imagine) more routine function of giving you comparative data. Yes its unfortunate that it spoils a race for some people (likely the reason this thread was started all of a sudden, which also likely gives away someone's character).... but on the same note as earlier, I've never met a half-elf in many years that was pretending to be either full-elf or full-human.
I started writing a response, but then I stopped caring about this code change in general.
i haven't read past the first page. mostly because i've read this thread previously a few years ago. but i'm going to respond directly to the original post:
bottom line: if you have SO LITTLE HALF ELF in you that you could never be found out by close inspection, then just roll a fucking human, you twink.
the race half elf should only be used by characters with at least one single, visible hint. And that hint should be in the mdesc, and the ass -v thing simply confirms it. look + ass-v = 'closer inspection'.
Quote from: Agent_137 on June 01, 2009, 01:11:31 AM
bottom line: if you have SO LITTLE HALF ELF in you that you could never be found out by close inspection, then just roll a fucking human, you twink.
the race half elf should only be used by characters with at least one single, visible hint. And that hint should be in the mdesc, and the ass -v thing simply confirms it. look + ass-v = 'closer inspection'.
Truth.
While I have to applaud Synth for the epic win, I have to completely disagree with staff opinion on this. I'm with this dude:
Quote from: Armaddict on May 31, 2009, 09:34:07 PM
Quotevia whatever means they have available.
That's what I was getting at. A well-disguised half-elf who is very very strongly trying to fulfill their roleplay and fit in can get 30 DAYS of gameplay for that awesome roleplay completely removed just because someone who had no idea accidentally notices once while searching for their age or whatever, and decides they suddenly 'noticed' things they didn't before.
It's ridiculous, and while not powergaming, is taking that whole 'code allows it' mentality to the extreme. It's like saying there's no such thing as overhunting simply because there is knowledge that the code will still spawn the things.
I like how "look" doesn't reveal this racial information, despite it being an obvious inspection of another player and how "assess -v", which apparently, now, is an inspection consisting of deep and detailed observation of every inch of someone's anatomy, is an hemote that pierces even the thickest cloak and most careful disguise with a passing glance of racial sonar.
And jeez, people, stop with the "twink" accusation on this one. We get the point. The docs plainly state that half-elves can pass as other races. Players plainly approach the race with this in mind. We now have a staff clarification that half-elves can pass, but only when they're not codedly half-elves. Accusing players of being twinks when they played in accordance with the docs and expected the code to back them up on it is stupid.
My thoughts...
I wouldn't be opposed to removing the racial detection aspect from assess -v.
That said, it's been plainly stated by staff (even before this thread) that assess -v is a valid
IC means of determining someone's race. It's not really all that unreasonable a proclamation either, IMO.
I don't mean to pick on you in particular, Armaddict, but this was just the most recent post exemplifying what I dislike about this recent assess -v uproar:
Quote from: Armaddict on May 31, 2009, 09:34:07 PM
A well-disguised half-elf who is very very strongly trying to fulfill their roleplay and fit in can get 30 DAYS of gameplay for that awesome roleplay completely removed...
Completely removed? At worst, killed, but there are plenty of more arbitrary things to be killed for than being discovered with hidden race that
you purposefully picked at character creation and purposefully decided to hide from people that would kill you for it.
If not killed, then you'll likely get some awesome character development and a chance to completely reshape their life.
Quotejust because someone who had no idea accidentally notices once while searching for their age or whatever, and decides they suddenly 'noticed' things they didn't before.
What's wrong with someone suddenly noticing something they hadn't before? I've had it happen with half-elves even
without using assess -v. I've had it happen IRL too, one day looking at a picture and noticing something about my grandmother, later to find out she was part Mongolian.
Like I said, I wouldn't mind it if you couldn't tell race from assess -v, but I think using it is far from the OOC twinkery injustice that people are making it out to be.
The only reason I think it is OOC is that it gives a DEFINITIVE knowledge that the character is of a race that is supposedly nearly indistinguishable in some cases as per documentation.
PS- it's been at least a year since I played a breed. :D
Heh, I think a solution would be to give a delay to assess -v. It should discourage people from assessing people willy-nilly. And it should echo before the assess succeeds, giving you enough time to punch that guy in the face for staring at you like that. Too bad we already have too many delays in this game.
I'm totally with FantasyWriter here.
Also, the staff responses to this thread indicate a policy that reads as half-baked and contradictory. The answer I'm reading between the lines is "We don't think it's a big enough deal to sweat over." This, I can understand. Instead I see this official policy:
- Documentation says that half-elves can pass as humans and elves.
- However, a coded half-elf can never pass as a human or elf because of the innate ability to instantly detect someone's race - which has been very clearly indicated as appropriate roleplay to use this to weed out half-elves.
- Despite this amazing ability to instantly see through disguises, half-elves are encouraged to roll as humans or elves with a half-elf racial background - which then renders this ability to detect race completely useless. Nobody will ever know unless you tell them.
If there is a 100% foolproof way to circumvent this detection ability THEN WHY IS IT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!
The response I've read is that anybody who plays a coded half-elf and tries to pass as a human is obviously a twink - which has a creepy Emmanuel Goldstein vibe to it.
So far I've seen arguments which claim the system is working as intended - which can be translated to "shut up". The reality I'm inferring from this is that this contradictory way of handling half-elves is simply the result of dealing with what the code, imperfect though still awesome, has to offer. It's not worth the effort to fix, as this is really a minor inconvenience, not a game-breaking catastrophe. If this is the case, I'll happily accept that. But right now I'm reading that this is not only the best way to deal with half-elves, but that disagreeing means that I'm a min-maxing twink who has no right to an opinion.
If the "half-breed passing itself as human" story is common enough to inspire a debate over a change in the code, then that particular shtick is probably overused.
I stopped reading after the first page. Solution: Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.
Marauder Moe, I wasn't actually talking about someone hiding it from a clan or whatnot. If they do that, then yes, they're asking for it.
I'm talking about average joe in the Byn, in House Kurac, in House Salarr, in even the Guild. They aren't trying to get away with something, they're trying to fit in. Which I've done in the past (but when I was a noob). I don't play half-elves much. When I do, I have 'half-elf' in the sdesc. But I still looked at this particular issue and thought, 'Yeah...that does actually sound pretty messed up.'
I'm not a big fan of using code constantly, just because you've played the game awhile and know all the nuances and such that others may not, to try and 'get ahead' or to act as the 'decider' in everything. Most people who think like that will never stumble on it by accident, get an 'oh' face, then decide they didn't notice it yet. Altogether, the mood I got was that 'I got out it of a game command, now I know and you're fucked. Try harder next time.' It makes the entire -mood- of the game to be competition for characters, like an MMO, rather than some respect and cooperation, like an RPG.
QuoteI'm not a big fan of using code constantly, just because you've played the game awhile and know all the nuances and such that others may not, to try and 'get ahead' or to act as the 'decider' in everything. Most people who think like that will never stumble on it by accident, get an 'oh' face, then decide they didn't notice it yet. Altogether, the mood I got was that 'I got out it of a game command, now I know and you're fucked. Try harder next time.' It makes the entire -mood- of the game to be competition for characters, like an MMO, rather than some respect and cooperation, like an RPG.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 01, 2009, 04:32:30 PM
Solution: Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2009, 06:26:36 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on June 01, 2009, 04:32:30 PM
Solution: Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.
Aside from the obvious grammar issue there, I think you missed the part where Xygax said the command is currently working as intended.
Quote from: Xygax on May 31, 2009, 05:05:49 AM
The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason. It's not OOC information.
-- X
Xygax,
So the code was written with the intent of given a coded way to obtain DEFINITIVE information to a character about another character that would be questionable IC and also discoverable IC?
Thanks,
FW
Quote from: help half elf(...) Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colors of both parents.
Why all the contradictions? Why the coded ability to dispel this racial trait? I can't see why it's necessary. Has there ever been a situation where this half-elven race-posing has been abused to the point where assess -v was needed? I have never seen any half-elf PC who tried to pass as a human or an elf for the purpose of doing something that would create interesting roleplay, and I'm sure this is exactly because any player who might want to do so also knows that the ruse will last until someone assesses him. I'm sure some have attempted and I'm sure someone will reply with a story about how he once knew a guy who totally pulled it off, but this is yet another of
countless aspects of Armageddon where an entire element of roleplay is made practically unplayable because the code is an obstacle for no reason other than "that's just how it is." I will never understand why this is such a prominent tradition on this mud nor why players and staff tend to refuse any change that isn't completely inconsequential in every conceivable situation they can come up with. If the code didn't encourage questionable behaviour and OOC-playing at every turn, maybe this wouldn't be the RPI with the most twinks.
No, I don't want to spend my special application allowance and wait a month or more to play a character the way it's described in the god damn documentation. I just don't understand this mentality. This is not about wanting the stats of a half-elf (which suck) while playing the role of a human. A much more likely scenario is that a half-elf character played as a half-elf might some day want to pass off as either parent race for some specific purpose. Unfortunately, this is stubbornly refused by ancient dusty code that makes no sense and gets in the way of roleplay.
I still think SMuz view made the most logical sense and it seems to be what the Imms want.
No further questions your honour.
I don't see the big deal, guys. I've never played a half-elf, but I've always thought of the half-elven traits as on a spectrum from human to elf.
|--------------------|--------------------|
human half-elf elf
If your character is closer to a human, you roll a human. If your character is closer to an elf, you roll an elf. If your character is a true half-breed, the mix of traits as described in the documentation, then you roll a half-elf, and good luck trying to pass as anything but. I don't see why assess -v shouldn't give you this information, for the reason SMuz described. The grey areas can be easily covered with hints in gameplay and character descriptions, or Xygax's offer of a special app.
Quote from: Good Gortok on June 02, 2009, 04:13:11 AMNo, I don't want to spend my special application allowance and wait a month or more to play a character the way it's described in the god damn documentation.
There are plenty of characters/concepts in the documentation that require special applications, especially to cover grey areas such as this one.
Quote from: aruna on June 02, 2009, 10:48:48 AM
I don't see the big deal, guys. I've never played a half-elf, but I've always thought of the half-elven traits as on a spectrum from human to elf.
|--------------------|--------------------|
human half-elf elf
If your character is closer to a human, you roll a human. If your character is closer to an elf, you roll an elf. If your character is a true half-breed, the mix of traits as described in the documentation, then you roll a half-elf, and good luck trying to pass as anything but. I don't see why assess -v shouldn't give you this information, for the reason SMuz described. The grey areas can be easily covered with hints in gameplay and character descriptions, or Xygax's offer of a special app.
Quote from: Good Gortok on June 02, 2009, 04:13:11 AMNo, I don't want to spend my special application allowance and wait a month or more to play a character the way it's described in the god damn documentation.
There are plenty of characters/concepts in the documentation that require special applications, especially to cover grey areas such as this one.
It's a shame this flies in the face of the documentation.
No single half-elf should be able to pass for BOTH human and elf. One half-elf could pass for one or the other.
If you're coded as a human or an elf, you are a human or an elf, not a half-elf. Just because your blood isn't pure doesn't mean that you are a half-elf. If you are a half-elf, though, you could either be unable to pass as either... or be able to pass as one. This is not represented in the code because of 'assess -v' the way assess works right now. Either the documentation should change or 'assess -v' should give the "for their race" response to everyone regardless of race.
Additionally, though this is slightly off-topic from where the conversation is going, I seriously dislike that when you're the same race you get the 'younger/older than you' response from assess. Seriously, if you're 1 year younger than someone, when you're an adult, it's HARD to tell just by looking at someone if they're older by a year, younger by a year or damn close to your age. You should only have a general idea and returning the age range the person is in regardless of race is a better solution in my eyes.
On the same topic as my last paragraph, if someone is 40 years older than you or 20 years older than you, you should be able to tell the difference. However, if you're the same race as someone, you CAN'T except by clues in the sdesc/mdesc. Meanwhile, members of other races can codedly tell the difference between the two. How much sense does this make?
I actually agree with Spawnloser here - if you play character who is much older than rest of PC population, you end with every each PC around being "much younger than you" - but you can't say if this "much younger" means it's teenager or middle-aged man. That makes no sense to me.
Quote from: Elgiva on June 02, 2009, 08:10:07 PM
I actually agree with Spawnloser here - if you play character who is much older than rest of PC population, you end with every each PC around being "much younger than you" - but you can't say if this "much younger" means it's teenager or middle-aged man. That makes no sense to me.
This.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is the explanation given by staff as to why they took away >who c:
Quote from: Niamh on June 04, 2009, 07:12:00 AM
I am one of those awful staff members who was for who c being removed. Why? Because it is an ooc construct. Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them? I find the ability to do such a thing jarring and unrealistic.
assess -v is an ooc construct. Why should anyone automagickally know that someone is a half elf when they can just as easily take IC measures to find out? I find a definitive coded way to know this jarring and unrealistic.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 01, 2009, 04:32:30 PM
Solution: Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 04, 2009, 01:59:10 PM
I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is the explanation given by staff as to why they took away >who c:
Quote from: Niamh on June 04, 2009, 07:12:00 AM
I am one of those awful staff members who was for who c being removed. Why? Because it is an ooc construct. Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them? I find the ability to do such a thing jarring and unrealistic.
assess -v is an ooc construct. Why should anyone automagickally know that someone is a half elf when they can just as easily take IC measures to find out? I find a definitive coded way to know this jarring and unrealistic.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 01, 2009, 04:32:30 PM
Solution: Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.
Cheer! I love it when a plan comes together.
I've always felt assess -v as an IC construct. You assess the character by looking at him. He notices you looking at him. You stare at him for a while and see that he's taller, heavier, older, or not particularly sure how old he is because he's a different race.
Hmm... it would be fun if it worked like value. Maybe even based off value and scan. If completely unskilled, you could be 10% off the height, weight, etc. If you're a half-elf, you have a 10% of mistaking a human or elf as a HE. If you're human, you have a 10% of mistaking a HE as a human... and vice versa. You can always ask your friends whether they think the fella at the bar looks a little half-elven if you're not sure.
Quote from: Xygax on May 31, 2009, 05:05:49 AM
The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason. It's not OOC information.
-- X
Quote from: Nyr on June 04, 2009, 02:09:24 PM
Quote from: Xygax on May 31, 2009, 05:05:49 AM
The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason. It's not OOC information.
-- X
If that is the official staff position, fine, but as said in another thread where the debate is quite hot right now... we're all entitled to our opinions and at least a few of us believe that the documentation and this command do not agree. It is IMPOSSIBLE to pass for anything but a half-elf when you are playing one while this command continues to give this information.
Nyr, do you think you could illustrate some points, or perhaps explain what said "reason" is?
The other things assess -v shows you are pretty easily noticed by a good once over:
Age : He's got a shit-load of wrinkles and gray hair.
Condition: He's not bleeding anywhere noticeable, so he seems alright.
Stamina : He's sweating like a mo-fo and looks like he's about to passed out.
Armed : Yeah... those aren't kitchen utensils in his hands.
Race : He looks like he aged a little bit differently that I did... must be a breed!!!!
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2009, 08:00:12 PM
Quote from: Xygax on May 31, 2009, 05:05:49 AM
The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason. It's not OOC information.
-- X
Xygax,
So the code was written with the intent of given a coded way to obtain DEFINITIVE information to a character about another character that would be questionable IC and also discoverable IC?
Thanks,
FW
Quote from: Eloran on June 04, 2009, 02:12:56 PM
Nyr, do you think you could illustrate some points, or perhaps explain what said "reason" is?
Yes, please. Why is this considered (by the staff) to be the proper way for 'assess -v' to work? Why should every human be able to instantly and automagickally know when any half-elf that looks like a human isn't a human? Why should every elf be able to do the same to every half-elf that looks like an elf? I mean, looks like a human and smells like a human... must be human, right? No. Not the way this command works. Simply repeating that it is correct is like elementary schoolyard arguing, "Yes it is!" Give us more.
There's not too much to read into on that quoted remark, but I'll be glad to elaborate a bit.
People of a certain race can usually discern the traits that distinguish those not of their race.
Based on the history of Zalanthas and a history of intolerance for breeds, humans and elves both would look with suspicion at someone that appears as though they don't fit the mold of the race.
A more slender human with pointed ears and etched features? Seems a little out of the ordinary--I wonder if they are a breed? "Hey--your mother kanks 'neckers!" This causes a conflict to ensue between the human and suspected breed. Could be that the person isn't a breed at all. This doesn't mean that this sort of situation happens every time someone falls outside of the boundaries, but assess -v can be another reflection of that "non-rightness" that is picked up.
A more bulky elf with a generally stronger physique and less defined features? Seems a little strange--I wonder if they are a breed? The same thought above applies.
If you would like to play a "hidden" half elf, you have the option of choosing to be a human or elf that is actually a half-elf with more human or elven tendencies, and choose to take on the more difficult road of roleplaying someone that looks like an elf (or a human) so much as to be completely indistinguishable, yet still possesses the internal conflict every half-elf faces. The "coded" half-elf race is noticeably not human and not elvish to both humans and elves in subtle fashions. By choosing to be a half-elf, you acknowledge that you're going to be treading a road of more difficult roleplaying--half-elves are not accepted by their human heritage or by their elven heritage.
Thanks Nyr.
Your reasoning dictates "suspicion" of the person being a breed (which should already be in their mdesc and actions, hence being able to find out ic).
Assess -v doesn't offer suspicion, it gives a definitive answer.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 04, 2009, 02:42:12 PM
Your reasoning dictates "suspicion" of the person being a breed (which should already be in their mdesc and actions, hence being able to find out ic).
Assess -v doesn't offer suspicion, it gives a definitive answer.
You wrote my post for me.
I've changed the age description piece of assess -v so that you always get the age range, whether or not you are the same race.
I know this doesn't alleviate the core issue being discussed, but it does help with the side-line discussion about not being able to tell how old someone is if you're at an extreme and the same race.
My reasoning dictated more than suspicion. I would advise against latching onto any one word within an explanation that consists of far more than that.
In your explanation, however, Nyr, you basically say (rephrased of course), "If you want to play a half-elf that can't be found out with 'assess -v' you should pick the race your character resembles." Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
PS- Assess -v already lets a human know that a breed is taller and thinner than he is in the height and weight assessments.
Quote from: Nyr on June 04, 2009, 03:05:02 PM
My reasoning dictated more than suspicion. I would advise against latching onto any one word within an explanation that consists of far more than that.
Actually, half of your post was spent on explaining how suspicions would pan out. Each example offered regarded physical traits, though, i.e. one's main description.
Quote from: Nyr on June 04, 2009, 02:38:14 PM
People of a certain race can usually discern the traits that distinguish those not of their race.
I'd agree, yes. However, are you willing to offer examples not just pertaining to one's physicality? What about how one acts in social situations? Such things cannot be accounted for by code. Rather, this should fall on the shoulders of the roleplayers.
Quote from: Nyr on June 04, 2009, 03:05:02 PM
A more slender human with pointed ears and etched features? Seems a little out of the ordinary--I wonder if they are a breed? "Hey--your mother kanks 'neckers!"
Example #1 regarding physical traits one can key in on. (without assess -v, mind you)
Quote from: Nyr on June 04, 2009, 03:05:02 PM
A more bulky elf with a generally stronger physique and less defined features? Seems a little strange--I wonder if they are a breed? The same thought above applies.
Example #2 regarding physical traits one can key in on. (without assess -v, mind you)
Quote from: spawnloser on June 04, 2009, 03:08:44 PM
In your explanation, however, Nyr, you basically say (rephrased of course), "If you want to play a half-elf that can't be found out with 'assess -v' you should pick the race your character resembles." Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
You're right, I did say that, as did Xygax.
However, a couple of alternate solutions that have been put forth:
1. Change documentation to reflect the stated staff position/current code allowances.
2. Change the code so that one can choose what race they would resemble more readily via assess -v (e.g., you are a half-elf trying to pass as human and look more human, therefore you would appear human to humans via assess -v).
Quote from: Nyr on June 04, 2009, 03:20:46 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on June 04, 2009, 03:08:44 PM
In your explanation, however, Nyr, you basically say (rephrased of course), "If you want to play a half-elf that can't be found out with 'assess -v' you should pick the race your character resembles." Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
You're right, I did say that, as did Xygax.
However, a couple of alternate solutions that have been put forth:
1. Change documentation to reflect the stated staff position/current code allowances.
2. Change the code so that one can choose what race they would resemble more readily via assess -v (e.g., you are a half-elf trying to pass as human and look more human, therefore you would appear human to humans via assess -v).
I love option two as long as you can still choose to look like a breed (middle ground) as well.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 04, 2009, 03:24:23 PM
Quote from: Nyr on June 04, 2009, 03:20:46 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on June 04, 2009, 03:08:44 PM
In your explanation, however, Nyr, you basically say (rephrased of course), "If you want to play a half-elf that can't be found out with 'assess -v' you should pick the race your character resembles." Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
You're right, I did say that, as did Xygax.
However, a couple of alternate solutions that have been put forth:
1. Change documentation to reflect the stated staff position/current code allowances.
2. Change the code so that one can choose what race they would resemble more readily via assess -v (e.g., you are a half-elf trying to pass as human and look more human, therefore you would appear human to humans via assess -v).
I love option two as long as you can still choose to look like a breed (middle ground) as well.
Big, biiiig thumbs-up on Option Two. That'd rock in every way.
Yes to #2.
This puts trust in the hands of players and can open up a lot of doors.
I do prefer option 2 as well. Because being a half-elf is being a half-elf... not just having questionable ancestry. However, I would not complain if option 1 was the one that we went with.
Changing documentation to reflect code seems bassackwards to me.
I would love to see option 2 put in place, providing, as FW suggested, you can still choose to show up as half-elf.
To pick up on a certain point made in this thread,
Assess -v is an IC construct because it echos something in the game;
You glance at someone. Someone glances at you.
An OOC construct wouldn't have any visible effect in the game.
Peek, you might say, doesn't echo.
And to those people I will respond that peek is a skill, that always has a chance of failure, and might echo. OOC constructs don't echo in the game, 100% of the time.
An IC means of discovering information can still give information that people consider to be OOC, like guild-sniffing.
Quote from: mansa on June 04, 2009, 05:14:53 PM
Assess -v is an IC construct because it echos something in the game;
You glance at someone. Someone glances at you.
Actually, assess -v doesn't echo. Assess echoes.
Quote from: Morgenes on June 04, 2009, 03:04:31 PM
I've changed the age description piece of assess -v so that you always get the age range, whether or not you are the same race.
As you say, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I like.
Is that true, Eloran?
assess always has a chance to emit an echo, regardless of whether it's the -v variety or not.
-- X
Quote from: Morgenes on June 04, 2009, 03:04:31 PM
I've changed the age description piece of assess -v so that you always get the age range, whether or not you are the same race.
I know this doesn't alleviate the core issue being discussed, but it does help with the side-line discussion about not being able to tell how old someone is if you're at an extreme and the same race.
Thanks, Morgenes.
It has a -chance- to echo? WTF, there's some sort of die roll to determine it?
Quote from: Eloran on June 04, 2009, 09:48:01 PM
It has a -chance- to echo? WTF, there's some sort of die roll to determine it?
It depends on a certain skill on the part of the observer, so, yes, there is.
I guess the introduction of watch had something to do with that.
option 2 will give us LOTS of coded half elves for the added benefits of the race without the enforced and coded social stigma. great. as if there weren't enough breeds already.
Quote from: Agent_137 on June 06, 2009, 12:54:45 AM
option 2 will give us LOTS of coded half elves for the added benefits of the race without the enforced and coded social stigma. great. as if there weren't enough breeds already.
The documentation states that some half-elves can pass for human, and some can pass for elves, if they really try. The current state of the code makes that damned near impossible without record-level cooperation on the part of every human or elven PC you encounter. Perhaps, as a middle-ground, make it a karma option. At 0 karma, if you make a half-elf, your only option is to have their heritage be obvious. At some higher karma level, maybe 1 or so, you can select to have your half-elf more closely resemble a human or an elf.
I think there's a bit too much effort put into trying to not look like a half-elf. What's the point of playing a breed if you're going to miss out on the whole package of the roleplay that comes with it? It should be rare enough that you could make a spec app for it every time you want to play one, like Xygax suggested. Otherwise, it should be quite codedly obvious.
I know that you're just trying to come up with a good solution, Noteworthy, but I think that further adding to karma roles instead of holding people to the strict standards of RP that Arm is famous for (well, semi-famous, but I hope you understands what I mean) will only be discouraging to newer players. I've had PC's that have played around hidden breeds and I noticed using assess-v, sure, but it's not really so hard to leave it out and wait for the proper moment to roleplay it out. Even if it might be something that, for instance, your PC might instigate, like hemoting noticing the shape of the other PC's ear as it pokes through their hair for a moment or something of that nature.
It's very easy for someone who's been around long enough to accrue a good deal of karma not to think about or not to remember how easy it is for newer players to get discouraged by certain things. Especially if, for instance, they are coming from a H&S mud to here and they are already questioning their roleplay constantly, then to keep taking more and more of their character options away is only discouraging, and, IMHO, leads to a sort of slippery slope. Trusting everything to karma is every bit as bad as trusting everything to code, because it's so easy for good players to get overlooked in the process of recieving it.
Quote from: SMuz on June 06, 2009, 12:32:58 PM
What's the point of playing a breed if you're going to miss out on the whole package of the roleplay that comes with it?
Part of the half-elf package IS trying to fit in.
And most of the rest of the package in internal RP.
Quote from: Agent_137 on June 06, 2009, 12:54:45 AM
option 2 will give us LOTS of coded half elves for the added benefits of the race without the enforced and coded social stigma. great. as if there weren't enough breeds already.
Be racist against people who
look like half elves, not merely against those whose s-desc or assess -v tells you are half-elf. I trust the imms not to approve fat or burly half-elves, or ones that fall outside of the "tall humans-short elves" range, or ones with perfectly human (or perfectly elven) facial features and ears. If you see a human who is tall or skinny or has funny ears, don't bother with assess -v and just call him a breed regardless of what his coded race is. You see that ear-less "human"? Obviously he's a breed who cut off his ears to try and blend in. Your character won't fall for such silly tricks!
Come on, it'll be fun!
Quote from: SMuzI think there's a bit too much effort put into trying to not look like a half-elf. What's the point of playing a breed if you're going to miss out on the whole package of the roleplay that comes with it? It should be rare enough that you could make a spec app for it every time you want to play one, like Xygax suggested. Otherwise, it should be quite codedly obvious.
No, it should not have to be special apped because the documentation said it is both possible and
common. Either the documentation needs to be changed so that it no longer tricks players into thinking coded half elves are able to pass off as anything (help half elf refers to the coded race itself, right?), or they actually need to be able to pass off as something besides half-elves.
if you appear so human that no human could ever detect you are a half elf, then roll a human with half-elf in the background! Why are you rolling half-elf if not for the racial perks?? staff have even said the same thing. Ass -v is not broken. players are.
Heh, I missed this whole thread 'til now (in the which, for once, I would apparently have agreed with Synthesis). But question:
Quote from: Xygax on May 31, 2009, 10:33:41 AM
You're welcome to play a half-elf hiding your racial heritage. Just make your race be "human" or "elf" instead of half-elf.
I was told this in an app rejection:
Quote from: ArmageddonIf there is any elf in this character's lineage, the race must be half-elf. If the traits are superficial, please specify that in the background and I will approve it.
What I'm taking this to mean is that, in the spectrum from not-elf to all-elf, there should be a very strong bias toward apping them as half-elf.
Does 1/8 to 7/8 skinny = breed?
Because a human with some elven blood is still a human. They aren't neurotic about fitting in AND being independent at the same time, which is a half-elven thing. It's not about the coded advantages. It's about the race, for me. It's about the RP. A human is a human is a human... a half-elf is something entirely different. Deep down inside, that's the truth, and you'll play a human with elven blood somewhere back there differently than you will the character that is half-elf. Just KNOWING that your character is a half-elf makes you perceive it differently. People complain about immersion, and this is one of those things that's just kinda a lampshade for non-immersion.
A short enough half-elf could pretty easily pass himself off as a tall, slender human. Long enough hair will sufficiently cover slightly-pointed ears, and vaguely almond-shaped eyes--if that trait is even noticeable at all--are possible in full-blooded humans, as well. And, hell, if he's really afraid of being discovered, he can mutilate his own ears so the points are gone and they're just scarred. Battle scars!
My point is, with the current code, no matter what IC lengths your character goes to in order to disguise his elven heritage, it can all be easily undone by a single "assess -v" and the assessor suddenly "noticing" those oddly-shaped eyes of yours, or that you look a little too skinny, or whatever. I'm a huge proponent of "fool the player, fool the character"--that is to say, in more cases than many would like to admit, unless you can fool the player, you can't fool the character. Unfortunately, that's pretty well impossible in this case.
Letting players of half-elves decide if they can pass for human or elf codedly will allow hidden half-elves to, well, actually be hidden. Me, I've intentionally played open half-elves before, and if the code went in, I'd do it again, but I'd also play a hidden one now and again, something that I've given up on, currently. I don't think I'm that atypical.
(http://www.elfwood.com/art/a/a/aal/half_elf2.jpg)
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 06, 2009, 06:16:22 PM
http://www.elfwood.com/art/a/a/aal/half_elf2.jpg
I always think of Tanis the half-elf.
And then I go back to thinking about grade school.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on June 06, 2009, 04:52:37 PM
A short enough half-elf could pretty easily pass himself off as a tall, slender human. Long enough hair will sufficiently cover slightly-pointed ears, and vaguely almond-shaped eyes--if that trait is even noticeable at all--are possible in full-blooded humans
It's been stated by staff a couple of times (and wisely I think) that if you want half-elf abilities, then you have enough elf blood in you to make your recognizable as a half-elf. If you want to be a half-elf that has so little human/elven blood in him/her that he is able to blend with human/elf society that you should choose that race and rp being of mixed heritage.
That seems completely reasonable + fair to me.
This sort of makes me wonder whether a desert elf would appear to be "another race" to a city elf.
Quote from: jmordetsky on June 11, 2009, 09:31:33 PM
If you want to be a half-elf that has so little human/elven blood in him/her that he is able to blend with human/elf society that you should choose that race and rp being of mixed heritage.
That seems completely reasonable + fair to me.
Agreed. Things are fine as they are. I don't want to see a glut of hidden half-breeds, mostly. I'd fear for a situation where every last single Tor Scorpion represented by a PC would be a half-elf "desperately" hiding his heritage.
Maybe only humans or maybe only elves can spot the difference at first, but in the end, -everyone- knows, because as a PC, there's no such thing as being anonymous in a crowd. I'd recommend that people considering playing half-elves who trying to pass for human (why would any of them try to pass for an elf?) not bother.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 20, 2009, 02:25:26 AM
Maybe only humans or maybe only elves can spot the difference at first, but in the end, -everyone- knows, because as a PC, there's no such thing as being anonymous in a crowd. I'd recommend that people considering playing half-elves who trying to pass for human (why would any of them try to pass for an elf?) not bother.
Heh, I've seen a half-elf PC who had 'elf' as his sdesc.
Lol, I can imagine the flood of complaints on an elf that ride mounts and is damn good at it :P
Quote from: jmordetsky on June 11, 2009, 09:31:33 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on June 06, 2009, 04:52:37 PM
A short enough half-elf could pretty easily pass himself off as a tall, slender human. Long enough hair will sufficiently cover slightly-pointed ears, and vaguely almond-shaped eyes--if that trait is even noticeable at all--are possible in full-blooded humans
It's been stated by staff a couple of times (and wisely I think) that if you want half-elf abilities, then you have enough elf blood in you to make your recognizable as a half-elf. If you want to be a half-elf that has so little human/elven blood in him/her that he is able to blend with human/elf society that you should choose that race and rp being of mixed heritage.
That seems completely reasonable + fair to me.
The docs need to be fixed to reflect it.
End of story.
Lots of characters have passed for humans in the past...and they have been half elves. I've also seen half-elves passing as elves too. I don't mind it.
It would be nice to get a definitive staff answer/doc upgrade though. For game consistency.
I'd like assess -v to give a more definitive description of height, if not weight. It's so goddamn vague.
Posting this here so as to avoid starting a thread for no reason other than to say HELL YEAH.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35672.msg457755.html#new
That's pretty super.
Quote from: Fathi on June 23, 2009, 10:00:24 AM
Posting this here so as to avoid starting a thread for no reason other than to say HELL YEAH.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35672.msg457755.html#new
That's pretty super.
Looks like we got our staff answer.
Also, I suddenly have the urge to dig out all those old half-elf concepts I'd avoided playing for fear of assess -v. ;D
OMG OMG they gave the best solution to the problem :D
I'm still going to play half-elves that look like humans by mdesc but are revealed as half-elves via assess -v :)
Thanks Morg!
Always nice to see the game reflecting doc.
Kudos to the coders, but also to the staff in general for the no-doubt lengthy discussions and decisions behind this code update.
Bravo.
Will half-elves who choose to codedly resemble elves be given a higher allundean skill to reflect their likelihood of having spent more time among elves?
Quote from: Veges on June 23, 2009, 01:04:22 PM
Will half-elves who choose to codedly resemble elves be given a higher allundean skill to reflect their likelihood of having spent more time among elves?
No, it has nothing to do with your upbringing, just what you more physically resemble. If you want that you can submit a special application.
em sighs, preparing for the inevitable flood of half-elven humans.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:47:49 PM
em sighs, preparing for the inevitable flood of half-elven humans.
I believe that happened a month or two ago. ;)
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 23, 2009, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:47:49 PM
em sighs, preparing for the inevitable flood of half-elven humans.
I believe that happened a month or two ago. ;)
Yeah, but now we won't even know. D:
This change really kinda puts a damper on me and other people who <3's them some hot Zalanthan racism, because now we won't know who to treat like shit. :/
Unless some people stick with looking like a breed, but I see that becoming rare as hell.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:51:04 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 23, 2009, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:47:49 PM
em sighs, preparing for the inevitable flood of half-elven humans.
I believe that happened a month or two ago. ;)
Yeah, but now we won't even know. D:
This change really kinda puts a damper on me and other people who <3's them some hot Zalanthan racism, because now we won't know who to treat like shit. :/
Unless some people stick with looking like a breed, but I see that becoming rare as hell.
Honestly, I doubt it. And now, it'll just be a little trickier to tell. A well-RP'd breed, you can still possibly find out, even if they can codedly appear human or elven.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on June 23, 2009, 07:32:25 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:51:04 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 23, 2009, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:47:49 PM
em sighs, preparing for the inevitable flood of half-elven humans.
I believe that happened a month or two ago. ;)
Yeah, but now we won't even know. D:
This change really kinda puts a damper on me and other people who <3's them some hot Zalanthan racism, because now we won't know who to treat like shit. :/
Unless some people stick with looking like a breed, but I see that becoming rare as hell.
Honestly, I doubt it. And now, it'll just be a little trickier to tell. A well-RP'd breed, you can still possibly find out, even if they can codedly appear human or elven.
That's just the thing.... I've only really seen two or three "well-rp'd" breeds in my year of playing.... I'm not saying there aren't any more well-played breeds, just that I never seem to run into them.
I'd feel alot better if this "Select human, half-elf, or elf" for breeds were made a karma option.
I just fear that newer players will read the docs and think, "Half-elves get stats and stuff that I'd like to have.... But are treated like dirt. I'VE GOT IT! I'll just make him look human and drop no hints whatsoever at his elven blood! :D".
And then they'd start to get the idea that it's okay to be a half-elf. Which it's not. Not socially at least.
But then again, I'm probably just being paranoid.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 07:41:38 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on June 23, 2009, 07:32:25 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:51:04 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 23, 2009, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:47:49 PM
em sighs, preparing for the inevitable flood of half-elven humans.
I believe that happened a month or two ago. ;)
Yeah, but now we won't even know. D:
This change really kinda puts a damper on me and other people who <3's them some hot Zalanthan racism, because now we won't know who to treat like shit. :/
Unless some people stick with looking like a breed, but I see that becoming rare as hell.
Honestly, I doubt it. And now, it'll just be a little trickier to tell. A well-RP'd breed, you can still possibly find out, even if they can codedly appear human or elven.
That's just the thing.... I've only really seen two or three "well-rp'd" breeds in my year of playing.... I'm not saying there aren't any more well-played breeds, just that I never seem to run into them.
I'd feel alot better if this "Select human, half-elf, or elf" for breeds were made a karma option.
I just fear that newer players will read the docs and think, "Half-elves get stats and stuff that I'd like to have.... But are treated like dirt. I'VE GOT IT! I'll just make him look human and drop no hints whatsoever at his elven blood! :D".
And then they'd start to get the idea that it's okay to be a half-elf. Which it's not. Not socially at least.
But then again, I'm probably just being paranoid.
Honestly? I hate to be negative, but I'm not sure karma's going to ensure much if anything. There are plenty of players with karma who don't roleplay half-elves well. I'm comfortable enough with it as it is--making it a 1 or 2 karma option would make no difference, and any more karma than that would be kind of absurd.
I like the change. I hate how you ass -v someone, and then you know they're a breed. I think more players abuse THAT then this will be abused. I'm more likely now to try and play a concealed, well-thought out breed. Before, I wouldn't have wanted to, because you're relying on everyone else NOT simply v ass'ing you and saying "BREED! SCUM!" Has never appealed to me.
Some people may abuse it, but I'm not more likely to play a breed just for stat reasons. If people are playing for stat reasons, they'd probably find other ways to abuse the system anyways, reguardless of this change or no.
You know what I like about this? I'm gonna be able to start looking down at all those skinny, almond-eyed people I see around so much. I can't wait.
Quote from: Dalmeth on June 23, 2009, 08:14:38 PM
You know what I like about this? I'm gonna be able to start looking down at all those skinny, almond-eyed people I see around so much. I can't wait.
The added potential for
suspicion is great.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on June 23, 2009, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on June 23, 2009, 08:14:38 PM
You know what I like about this? I'm gonna be able to start looking down at all those skinny, almond-eyed people I see around so much. I can't wait.
The added potential for suspicion is great.
Hadn't thought of it that way. Now I like it even more.
And more outrage when you discover that you've been kanking one.
Or trusting one.
Or treating it like it wasn't a breed.
How embarrassing!
I've seen half-elves who are obviously half-elves not being treated like dirt. And I've seen some newbies with human like half-elves pull it off great. Lol, I think breeds are much easier to roleplay correctly than dwarves or elves and certainly less abusable than a dwarf; might as well let them be 0-karma.
Heheh, I'm going to suspect all you rangers out there of being half-elves now. And I'm going to make one coded human with slightly sharp ears sometime in the future.
QuoteHeheh, I'm going to suspect ...
Nah, they smell different from us.
I don't know if anybody knows this or not (apparently not...) but you shouldn't be worried about people "twinking" by having half-elves that look like humans--because halfies with shitty stats are a statistical majority.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 07:41:38 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on June 23, 2009, 07:32:25 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:51:04 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 23, 2009, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 23, 2009, 06:47:49 PM
em sighs, preparing for the inevitable flood of half-elven humans.
I believe that happened a month or two ago. ;)
Yeah, but now we won't even know. D:
This change really kinda puts a damper on me and other people who <3's them some hot Zalanthan racism, because now we won't know who to treat like shit. :/
Unless some people stick with looking like a breed, but I see that becoming rare as hell.
Honestly, I doubt it. And now, it'll just be a little trickier to tell. A well-RP'd breed, you can still possibly find out, even if they can codedly appear human or elven.
That's just the thing.... I've only really seen two or three "well-rp'd" breeds in my year of playing.... I'm not saying there aren't any more well-played breeds, just that I never seem to run into them.
I'd feel alot better if this "Select human, half-elf, or elf" for breeds were made a karma option.
I just fear that newer players will read the docs and think, "Half-elves get stats and stuff that I'd like to have.... But are treated like dirt. I'VE GOT IT! I'll just make him look human and drop no hints whatsoever at his elven blood! :D".
And then they'd start to get the idea that it's okay to be a half-elf. Which it's not. Not socially at least.
But then again, I'm probably just being paranoid.
Because reacting to what your character sees in another person's behaviour or physical appearance is somehow worse than reacting to what you see with an infallible coded command? That's actually very Armageddon.
I liked the old rule.
The best part about playing a human-like half-elf is manipulating your associates into killing anyone who dares call you a half-elf.
Quote from: jstorrie on June 24, 2009, 02:12:35 PM
The best part about playing a human-like half-elf is manipulating your associates into killing anyone who dares call you a half-elf.
I've always suspected that that was the true reason behind the earphones in your avatar. Hiding your skinny heritage, no doubt.
Quote from: Thunkkin on June 23, 2009, 09:35:56 PM
And more outrage when you discover that you've been kanking one.
Or trusting one.
Or treating it like it wasn't a breed.
How embarrassing!
I had this happen to a PC of mine. OOCly, I knew from ass -v that he was a breed, but ICly my poor PC had no clue. It was some amazing role-play when they found out. I do wish I hadn't known OOCly, though. Something like this would have been awesome.