I've noted recently the lack of apparent master crafters in the world. What gives, people? DO you know how cool it is to be able to make things nobody else can? Merchant Houses will conspire to thieve you away from one another, you'll be richer than hell, and you get to have RP that focuses on seriously social issues. What's made you folks stop playing these cornerstones of rich PCs' worlds?
Master crafters are out there; I can think of two currently in game off the top of my head. You're just not looking in the right places.
I'm actually more interested in mastercrafters related to the Major Merchant Houses, not independents. I remember when every Merchant House had at least one mastercrafter, and sometimes more. That's what I'm wondering about.
A few possible reasons:
1. There were a bunch, but they're all dead. The current group of "merchant" guild is slowly working their way up to "master" status.
2. There are some, but they're secret and they just don't want YOU to know, cause they want their monthly item for themselves.
3. Same as #2, but they're giving their monthly item to that -other- guy who bribes more or whose threats have more impact.
4. The "merchant" guild characters aren't doing a very good job at impressing the GMHs that they're worth hiring and investing time, energy, and raw materials into training them to become master crafters. So they don't get hired, and ultimately die or get bored and store before they ever get that good.
5. It is insanely difficult to -be- a merchant-guild character, if you want regular social interaction, an active clan in which to find that regular social interaction, availability of a multitude of raw materials at low or zero cost to yourself, shops which will buy all the total crap you are required to produce during your first few RL months of being a merchant-guild just so you can eventually be good enough to make things PCs are interested in buying (that includes clans where you aren't allowed to do your own selling - the person who has that responsibility on your behalf STILL has to find shops willing to buy the stuff - except now they can't sell it to their -own- shops so the options are -extremely- limited) and so on and so forth..
6. The -only- people who can become master crafters are merchant guild. That puts them in the minority before they ever get out of the hall of kings. You are more likely to run into a combat-based character in the local tavern, than you are a merchant-guild character because there are a whole bunch of combat-based main guilds, and only one "master crafter" guild.
I played a crafter character inside a GMH once. I've also played a couple of master crafter characters outside of the GMHs. The "benefits" of playing a crafter inside the GMHs just aren't sufficient to interest me in that environment, when balanced against the significant disadvantages.
Those are good points, Liz and Gimf. So, how do we solve the problems that are presented? I want a discussion, basically, on how to improve the role of a merchant-class character in the Houses. I feel that the apparent lack of ability to help older characters get what they want kinda hurts older characters, who've been hustling for RL years, in some cases, to get to the point where they can actually ask for consideration for things.
Perhaps a reduction of mastercrafting times from one month to two weeks, for those who are in Merchant Houses and have access to such a wide variety of talents and instruction? This would reflect the know-how of the Merchant Houses. Better pay? What would make the role sexy again? Obviously, not all master crafters are Family members, so you can't all have a NPC....
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 10:35:20 AM
Perhaps a reduction of mastercrafting times from one month to two weeks, for those who are in Merchant Houses and have access to such a wide variety of talents and instruction?
Err, no. No changing the rules in order to compensate for the failings of our abysmal clan system.
The things I see as disadvantages to joining a GMH for crafters:
-- Unlimited access to 1000 of "a piece of bone" since the GMH has been storing those for some reason since Tek was a boy, but -more- limited access to materials that can be purchased from the market or foraged or logged, since those things all depend on PC leadership to organize. I don't want to sit on my ass, not practicing my skills for a few RL weeks while the PC leadership does little to supply me with materials.
-- I can make a lot, lot, LOT more money working for myself than I can make working for the GMH. Not to mention, if they do profit-sharing with me, that often depends on a PC leader to be around to sell the crap I make. So I wait and wait and wait in order to get just a portion of what I'd make on my own.
-- All this vaunted "social RP" depends on having an active cadre of nobles and templars who've been around long enough to have coin to spend on the amazing things I can make. This is spotty at best. And, the crap they usually want made is pretty boring and has nothing to do with Plot or Story. It's just "ooh make me a shiny new armor with my personal symbol on it." It adds nothing to the game long-term. Yeah, in that circumstance I'd rather make things that -I- find interesting.
When I had need to learn about the policy of custom items, I did a check to find out why the policy was made (since the posts about the policy showed clearly it was a change from how it used to be).
What I found, was concern that some people were submitting lots of custom things, often, and it was just really hard for staff to keep up, plus some of this stuff is badly written and needs editing and modifications, plus people weren't always following the instructions on submitting them, etc. etc. Multiply the most common problems (one typo and two grammatical errors, for a conservative example), by an *unlimited* amount of items submitted in a single day, by however many characters have crafting skills.
What you end up with, is a staff dedicated to receiving, fixing, and implementing unique objects, and no one left to run the game. So they implemented a policy. I think having a policy is a good idea, however I feel the policy went too far. An arbitrary "only one item per month per Master Crafter, and Master Crafters must ONLY be the merchant primary guild" seems pretty severe. That means if a Red Robe templar wants a new outfit, and wants it unlike anyone else's, to attend the ascension of a Black Robe to the new Highlord and himself to a new Black Robe...he has to do the following:
1. Find a master crafter.
2. Find a master crafter 6 RL months before the event.
3. Find a master crafter 6 RL months before the event, whose "list of submissions already given to the staff" isn't full for the next year.
4. Find a master crafter 6 RL months before the event, whose list isn't already full, who you can somehow magickally guarantee he won't die or retire his character or quit playing, before the things you want are delivered.
5. Accept that you will only get one item at a time, per RL month, and that there is a very real possibility that you will get bored of the role and not even attend that ascension ceremony, and you will have wasted the master crafter's submissions for the next 6 months, which will piss off the master crafter's player, because he only gets one a month and he just wasted it on a red robe who doesn't even log in anymore.
6. Accept that the player of the master crafter will realize #5, and find some way of rejecting the red robe's very generous offer in exchange for the service.
Solution:
Allow more than 1 per month - in fact, change the policies completely. Allow 1 item per month, PER craft mastered...so a master crafter might be able to make a ring for Lord Fancypants, a new dress for Administrator GMH Guy, a new bow for his own Senior Hunter who has just saved three nobles from certain death and deserves something special, damnit.
Allow for occasional flexibility - if a master crafter has proven responsible as a player -and- as a PC...and has proven they can write a description without needing any hand-holding, and their character is asked to create a whole setup for an individual of significant means and significant influence (a *Senior* agent, a *Red* robe templar, a *Senior* Noble...etc)... for a seriously significant occasion (such as the King's Age party for the High templar in Tuluk a couple months ago)...then the staff should be willing to accommodate such a request. And if there are two such requests to the same crafter, and it's something that ICly the crafter -would- be able to do in the time provided, then hey - it's once or twice a RL year..and there's only one master crafter who is submitting it, so why the heck not?
I would also suggest, that if a merchant guild player pick a crafting subguild..then that craft should become "master" quality a whole lot quicker than usual. If it doesn't already. I would also also also suggest - that there be some coded indication to the player - via an echo, or perhaps an asterisk next to the related skill, to let the player know that he *does* in fact have master crafter status on that skill. That'll save a whole lot of trouble to staff so players aren't pestering them every month asking "am I a master yet, huh hu huh?"
Perhaps the PC ordering special items should have criteria to follow, such as one item per ten days played, after 30 days played? Would that help limit the number of special items being asked for, and the workload that staff would be required to evaluate?
See, I think special items should often benefit more than just that PC who wants them, but there is nothing wrong with a PC who wants a personal item or items. Having 'unique cool shit' is a nice boon in any game.
Perhaps, also, merchant skills could be changed that at the cap of the skill, a (M) appears beside the skill, to tell you that you are a master? I think this would be cool across the board, but let's apply it to merchants.
Another issue is that, without getting too IC, starting in the north is much more viable for a merchant that actually wants to become a master crafter. So if you're playing in the southlands, I think the likelihood of meeting one is even less.
Like many roles, it's also not a very rewarding role for those with low playtimes.
I know where I'm at in life these days I'd love to play the game occasionally, but find that both leveling up and getting involved in things take way too much.
I'd play a role like that casually, but it'd take years to get to master craft level while only playing once a week or so.
That's somewhat of a tangent, but not entirely. My point is that as far as skill trees go it's an end game option, and getting to end game is a very difficult proposition for those of us with limited time on our hands... plus the risk of dying, retiring, or whatever else before you get there. It's a mud wide problem though, and not related only to this.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 11, 2008, 10:57:00 AM
When I had need to learn about the policy of custom items, I did a check to find out why the policy was made (since the posts about the policy showed clearly it was a change from how it used to be).
What I found, was concern that some people were submitting lots of custom things, often, and it was just really hard for staff to keep up, plus some of this stuff is badly written and needs editing and modifications, plus people weren't always following the instructions on submitting them, etc. etc. Multiply the most common problems (one typo and two grammatical errors, for a conservative example), by an *unlimited* amount of items submitted in a single day, by however many characters have crafting skills.
What you end up with, is a staff dedicated to receiving, fixing, and implementing unique objects, and no one left to run the game. So they implemented a policy. I think having a policy is a good idea, however I feel the policy went too far. An arbitrary "only one item per month per Master Crafter, and Master Crafters must ONLY be the merchant primary guild" seems pretty severe.
Some thoughts from a crafting clan staffer:
I don't think the restrictions on master crafters are severe.
It's also not so much that master crafters must ONLY be merchant primary guild, but that ONLY merchants can be master crafters. Master crafter means you are one of the absolute best in the Known World at this particular trade. You make the best things, you can design your own GOOD things, and you're a highly wanted commodity. Allowing other guilds to be master crafters is such a rare exception that it never happens. No other guild is a crafting guild. No subguild is equal or better than the guild from which the skills are derived from.
Sometimes we do make the occasional exception for major events, and will even build things that aren't built primarily for any person but just for the event (the King's Age Festival had several things that were built primarily for the event itself).
It's not a big deal for staff to tell players they are a master crafter. It may take a little while, but the actual work required is very little.
I'd always like to see more crafters. As others have said, though, master crafting is a long-term goal. It takes some significant time to get to that level of skill.
To what Lizzie and 7DV said:
Turning master crafters into personalized-item vending machines for nobles and templars is not the solution for making these roles more enjoyable (and thus more often played) for players. As with -any- role in ARM, if you want to attract more PCs to it, then you need better PC leadership and better involvement for those playing that role in Plot and Story.
Quote from: Nyr on November 11, 2008, 11:30:10 AM
I don't think the restrictions on master crafters are severe.
I agree with Nyr. The restrictions on master crafting are fine.
Gimf, for those PCs and indeed even Staff that run a merchant house, what sort of things would you suggest as far as Plot and Story that would attract those sorts of players, both Merchant and Hunters? You're always full of clever shit - you tend to have some awesome suggestions.
I wouldn't say that Mastercrafters ought to be 'vending machines', but for whatever reason blah blah blah is being built, I would like to see more master merchants, and obviously, they need to be encouraged. Rather than discussing what they ought to be building, let's discuss how to make being in a merchant house have it's own perks, without invalidating independent merchants.
Right now, apparently, everything seems to lean to the side of independents.
I have no trouble with the fact that only a merchant can become a master crafter. I think that's fine. It's just the frequency and variety of "custom items" they're allowed to make seems a bit askew. I mean, if they are a Master Crafter - and they've mastered 6 different crafts, why are they only allowed to submit one item per month? Why not six - one for each craft they've mastered? Or if these custom items are things that -should- take a lot of time making - cut it in half. Tell them they can have three, one from each of his choice of three "mastered" crafts.
That's the thing I feel could be improved on. Or maybe - if you've only mastered 1-2 crafts, you are allowed 1 custom item submission per month. If you have mastered 3-5 craft skills, then you are allowed up to 2 custom item submissions per month. If you've mastered 6-9 craft skills, then you can have up to 3 custom item submissions per month. If you have more than 9, you can have up to 4 custom item submissions per month.
And..you can't have more than 1 submission for the same craft per month, no matter how many you're allowed in total. So 1 clothworker submission, plus 1 jewelry submission, plus 1 armor submission..to make 3 total. But not 3 clothworker submissions in the same month.
I think that still allows the staff to not have to handle kajillions of submissions for custom items, but provides players more motivation to play merchant guild characters, and master crafters more usefulness *as* master crafters, to more people in a shorter duration.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 12:01:47 PM
Gimf, for those PCs and indeed even Staff that run a merchant house, what sort of things would you suggest as far as Plot and Story that would attract those sorts of players, both Merchant and Hunters?
-- First, there must be competent apped or non-apped PC leadership which can recruit, train, and coddle hunter and crafter characters and thus build a team over time. Without the team, the rest of this is moot. The team is the basis for going on plot-related adventures, and provides the trusted social interaction which is so critical to keeping underlings happy with the role. Potentially, the team is the #1 attractor to the clan, but its building is almost always neglected.
-- Second, there must be immortal support for crafter PCs in the form of ongoing training into cool sekrets of the trade, and also implementation of master crafting recipes once that level is reached. (It's highly disappointing to submit a recipe and then see it get lost and never implemented.) With the current staff of the GMHs, I don't see this being a problem in the least, but I'm just pointing out that it's critical to the role. This kind of support usually can't be provided by PC leadership simply because most PC leaders don't necessarily know anything about crafting.
-- Then, PC leaders need to find interesting things for PC crafters and hunters to do. Simply fulfilling standard orders to bring in goudra hide or to make linen garments is not enough to keep these roles interesting. Leaders are quest-givers and should do much more of it. Examples: Learn to X, find Y, bring me Z, talk to Q, investigate T, explore P, buy R, sell G.
-- PC leaders (with the support of imms) should be pursuing plots which will involve their underlings. There are many, many kinds of plots that can potentially be done in ARM which could by design require something to be made by a crafter. Examples: A new shop (it needs to be built by crafters), a war effort (better armor and weapons from crafters), a party (special prizes designed by crafters).
-- Offer PC crafters something indies could never get: The opportunity to work with the rarest materials in the world. That's right, I'm saying go out and get some metal, or some of whatever else is uber-rare, and use it to attract crafters to your organization.
-- When you have that amazing underling who does everything for you and who you'd hate to lose, by Tek's balls, REWARD that person. So the stated salary is just 500 coins per month? Ignore that bitch and pay your favorite crafter much more. Make sure your favorite crafter (or hunter) is introduced to the upper echelons as the elite of the elite. Lavish praise on that person. Play up the specialness of the role to make it more fun. Most PC leaders utterly suck at properly rewarding great underlings; don't be them.
-- Run RPTs, RPTs, and more RPTs. PC leadership should be running at least one RPT a week for clannies, and that goes for any organization. Sometimes RPTs can be just special social hang-out time, sometimes they can be foraging or lumbering trips, and sometimes they should be full on plot-related adventures. But they need to be happening. After adventuring and foraging/lumbering trips, PC leaders should take the whole team to the nearest tavern to get roaringly drunk and tell the populace tall tales about their hijinks. (Best recruiting tactic evar.)
So, not all of that is about Plot and Story, but it's a package deal. The above is what I'd consider the basics of making a GMH crew interesting and attractive to underling characters of both the hunter and crafter type. (Pretty much the basics for a military group as well.)
I have seen SEVERAL "mid" level crafters lately. I don't think this will be an issue after a couple of RL months. (unless they all died, of course)
Build your team of hunter/gatherers before you hire the crafter(s). Boredom is a killer.
I wish subguild crafters could master their particular skill and create unique items, perhaps with twice the time attached to their requests as opposed to the current times of merchants.
I don't see a particular problem with this.
Quote from: Lakota on November 11, 2008, 06:36:13 PM
I wish subguild crafters could master their particular skill and create unique items, perhaps with twice the time attached to their requests as opposed to the current times of merchants.
I don't see a particular problem with this.
Try This: (not an actual quote)
Quote-->Request Tool
-->Character Related
-->Skill Change
Hunter Amos (ranger/jewelrycrafter) Has been a hunter for house Kadius for IC two years. In addition to becoming a "pack leaded" when the first or second hunters are not around, he has been spending alot of time in the crafting hall, learning from senior agent Belog Kadius. I believe I have reached the point that I can no longer learn past my skill cap. I was hoping that my time with Kadius, my lessons from SA Belog, and my objective of becoming a well know jeweler, I could have my skill capped raised.
Thank you for your time,
Amos's Player
Edited to add: <insert logs of training sessions here>
Also anytime you send a request in related to your PC shoot an email off to your clan staff to let them know what is going on.
It the example case about, I would have been in corespondence with my clan staff about your PC's goal, and sending the logs on one at a time to keep them updated on what I was trying to do.
Request tool: Helping players beat loose OOC rules though IC means since....(hold on while I look it up)...April 1, 2006!
Quote from: Lakota on November 11, 2008, 06:36:13 PM
I wish subguild crafters could master their particular skill and create unique items, perhaps with twice the time attached to their requests as opposed to the current times of merchants.
I don't see a particular problem with this.
I'm sorry you don't see a particular problem with this, but we do. If we implement something like this, we would have approximately 75% of the playerbase sending in master crafting requests every other month due to the preponderance of crafting skills within the subclasses.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you are not Guild Merchant, you do not have the necessary talent to perform the delicate work that a merchant does. A mage has an innate understanding of magick. A warrior has an innate grasp of combat maneuvers. A ranger has an innate ability to read the landscape and now how to survive. A assassin has an innate understanding on how to make someone stop living. A merchant has an innate understanding of how to make something better than it is in a raw form.
You can be a plumber for 10 years, and be adequate. You can be a plumber for 20 years and still be adequate. You can be a plumber for 30 years, still be adequate, and be looking towards your retirement. You can see some new kid with a big mustache enter the plumbing arena and fix pipes with a whack of his wrench, jump on a turtle, and save a princess. The whole while, you'll be screaming at yourself that the things he did were -sooo- simple, why didn't you think of them? You didn't have the innate understanding of plumbing. You were Joe the Plumber, he was Mario.
FantasyWriter, while your suggestion is a good one, it's not one that is likely to receive a positive response. Such an adjustment (and I'm just spitting a number estimate from the top of my head) would probably include no less than one RL year of training exclusively towards getting that adjustment. Yes, one RL year is several years IC, which is precisely how much you would have to study to get even a fraction of the talent that a guild merchant would begin with. Even after that work, there is no guarantee.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on November 12, 2008, 03:10:44 PM
You can be a plumber for 10 years, and be adequate. You can be a plumber for 20 years and still be adequate. You can be a plumber for 30 years, still be adequate, and be looking towards your retirement. You can see some new kid with a big mustache enter the plumbing arena and fix pipes with a whack of his wrench, jump on a turtle, and save a princess. The whole while, you'll be screaming at yourself that the things he did were -sooo- simple, why didn't you think of them? You didn't have the innate understanding of plumbing. You were Joe the Plumber, he was Mario.
You are a nerd, homes. And you're quoted. That was a wyn paragraph.
The suggestions to allow all PCs to be master crafters, or to speed up the rate of new items entering the game, just feel like attempts to "dumb down" the game to me. Let merchants have their unique specialness, just like the other guilds do. If you want to see more of them doing your new-item bidding in game, then by Muk, make it worth their time and effort to do. Currently I don't see leaders even attempting to do this. It's not rocket surgery.
As long as the starting skills for guild_merchant remain what they are, I doubt you will see too many master crafters flourish in the south--unless they travel often or are imported and skilled up elsewhere.
Quote from: Fathi on November 12, 2008, 09:10:02 PM
As long as the starting skills for guild_merchant remain what they are, I doubt you will see too many master crafters flourish in the south--unless they travel often or are imported and skilled up elsewhere.
I seriously wish southern merchants came with different starting skills. The starting skills for northern merchants make sense, but if you've lived in the south all your life.. where have you even learned some of that stuff? Seriously. So many of the other crafts make more logical sense!
Before Tuluk was Tuluk and it was called the Northlands, it place was absolutely brimming with crafters. I quite liked the atmosphere of it. Somehow, somewhere along the line craftsmen became less popular except as an on the side (i.e., subguild) trade. I think at the time it was so popular because Arm had just come out with the crafting skills and people were eager to explore them then.
Just out of curiosity though, what would you all consider as a useful specialized item? I mean what are people asking for besides fancy cloaks with their personal insignia on it? What can be special requested that's useful to the game and not just the individual?
I'm just making up examples off the top of my head, so some may be a bit stretched, but:
A new uniform for [insert clan here].
New types of weapon or armor specifically designed for killing [insert beastie here].
[Insert item here] for the crowning achievement of recent events - let's say you just fended off a mantis invasion in Luir's. You want to make a ring of mantis chitin, or maybe a fancy mantis-head incense burner/paperweight or even a new kind of mantis-meat FOOD in celebration of your victory, to distribute to the winners/put on the menu.
The point is, methinks, to get the mastercrafter at least tangentially involved in some real plot, social or otherwise, or at least let them work with some rare and unusual material.
I have a dire interest in broadening the array of goods specialized to a specific clan, being that the dress code is stringent. I won't lie, I do have a scheme for a couple of personalized items, but in comparison, the number of things I have tried to order for the good of all in my clan obscures the items I would like for myself that I have not tried to order yet. And they are not 'fancy cloaks'.
That's not to include the items I have suggested to certian Merchant Houses that I would never even use. Tools, implements, foods, etc. The crafting rule is understandable, given that with in a few years, we won't have 1.0. Right?
But it still kinda sucks, and it's even worse that there are no masters in the Merchant Houses, which is where certain people go to obtain what they need.
BTW, Tisiphone is absolutely correct, in every aspect. I want to involve people in stuff. Crafting and new items are something for crafters to focus on, whether it is personal or clan or general stuff.
Just wanted to add to this--many characters might not even know they're master crafters, since you have to put in a request to be told that you are one. Perhaps something in ginka could tell you if you were one, with a congratulatory message of some sort?
Quote from: jcljules on November 30, 2008, 12:44:39 PM
Just wanted to add to this--many characters might not even know they're master crafters, since you have to put in a request to be told that you are one. Perhaps something in ginka could tell you if you were one, with a congratulatory message of some sort?
That would be nice, Kinda like the new birthday messages.
On the downside, putting in a request lets you AND your staff know that you are a mastercrafter.
Even if something like this were implemented, first think I would do after getting the message would e to shoot off an email to my clan staff.
I also think rich/powerful characters need to be more interested in fancy, personal things. Nobles need to start asking for clothes with designs of their choosing stitched on them, spice pipes carved in their likeness, etc;
I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?
Quote from: Delstro on November 30, 2008, 01:19:10 PM
I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?
Agreed. Nobles and templars should never hae to spend their stipends on clothes/gear. It should all be given to them as bribes/paypoffs/favors, etc.
PS- I have seen A LOT of this going on in game lately, which is great.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 30, 2008, 01:21:47 PM
Quote from: Delstro on November 30, 2008, 01:19:10 PM
I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?
Agreed. Nobles and templars should never hae to spend their stipends on clothes/gear. It should all be given to them as bribes/paypoffs/favors, etc.
PS- I have seen A LOT of this going on in game lately, which is great.
Totally completely disagree. The Greater Merchant Houses are in business to make profit. If they had to *give* away the most expensive things they make in exchange for "favor" with every noble that expressed interest in their goods, they would go out of business. The GMHs rely on the combined wealth of people who are in a position to buy expensive things. The vast majority of people in that position are nobles. That is what the noble's stipend is FOR. To spend. That is how the merchant in the GMH can afford to bribe the templar.
We are not agreeing that the Master Crafter should make them and give the gifts.
We, as in Fantasy Writer and I, are agreeing a THIRD party should pay for the special item and then give it to the Noble/Templar as a bribe/gift. This will allow the Noble/Templar to keep their coin in PC hands and keep RPT going, or get htem going.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 02:19:53 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 30, 2008, 01:21:47 PM
Quote from: Delstro on November 30, 2008, 01:19:10 PM
I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?
Agreed. Nobles and templars should never hae to spend their stipends on clothes/gear. It should all be given to them as bribes/paypoffs/favors, etc.
PS- I have seen A LOT of this going on in game lately, which is great.
Totally completely disagree. The Greater Merchant Houses are in business to make profit. If they had to *give* away the most expensive things they make in exchange for "favor" with every noble that expressed interest in their goods, they would go out of business. The GMHs rely on the combined wealth of people who are in a position to buy expensive things. The vast majority of people in that position are nobles. That is what the noble's stipend is FOR. To spend. That is how the merchant in the GMH can afford to bribe the templar.
I don't think either Delstro or FW were suggesting that merchants give things away. They were suggesting that people other than nobles BUY them FOR the nobles.
Oh - well then by all means, spend those sids, and support your local GMH!
Or your local indie crafters ;)
Think of the GMH like Corporation. (not going to give anything away, because they are going to make their money, anyway)
Indies are "small business" that actually care about their customers, ESPECIALLY if they are in positions of power (the majority of PCs).
Plus indie/GMH competition for clients adds conflict.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 02:28:35 PM
Oh - well then by all means, spend those sids, and support your local GMH!
I know when I played a Fale back in 2002ish I got only 5000 an ic year.
Now, from the way I understand things work, at least in the north, most nobles have to use their income to pay other players.
Where are they to get this money to spend on themselves?
Plus, nobles are like celebs. They get free stuff and then when people ask, OHHH WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?! Oh, Merchant Amos Kadius made it himself just for me. Maybe he can make you something pretty too!
You probably need to hire good crafters to turn your yearly into a bigger income.
I know that the last Chosen that was employing me, made a lot of money because my PC only wanted his protection, and in exchange, my PC was more than happy to give him a percentage of how much he'd make that month.
That noble employing my PC merchant was probably getting an extra 2000 'sids or so extra a month.
But, yes, good luck getting yourself a competent crafter who wants to work for a noble.
You need to put that crafter in some sort of danger, so that he seeks protection and that you can be that protection for him.
Otherwise, half the playerbase makes more a real life week than most nobles will make in an IC year :P
Quote from: Malken on November 30, 2008, 05:19:00 PM
You probably need to hire good crafters to turn your yearly into a bigger income.
I know that the last Chosen that was employing me, made a lot of money because my PC only wanted his protection, and in exchange, my PC was more than happy to give him a percentage of how much he'd make that month.
That noble employing my PC merchant was probably getting an extra 2000 'sids or so extra a month.
But, yes, good luck getting yourself a competent crafter who wants to work for a noble.
You need to put that crafter in some sort of danger, so that he seeks protection and that you can be that protection for him.
Otherwise, half the playerbase makes more a real life week than most nobles will make in an IC year :P
So true. Hear that nobles? Mal just told you how to get rich like those poor commoners under you.
Hear that crafters? No need to put yourself in danger, thus more time to make stuff. PLUS you get more than that measly 300 sid ig month pay.
This is really bullshit. Crafters should want to work for the relevant Merchant Houses. Period. There should be perks for doing so. Merchant Houses need to reevaluate their policies. In certian circles, people should not have to hunt down people to get stuff.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 30, 2008, 05:49:09 PM
This is really bullshit. Crafters should want to work for the relevant Merchant Houses. Period. There should be perks for doing so. Merchant Houses need to reevaluate their policies. In certian circles, people should not have to hunt down people to get stuff.
Many things should get reevaluated on Armageddon, but they don't, so you have to go with what you have.
Trust me when I tell you that it's almost a joke to play a master crafter in a GMH.
I made a fortune as one, by myself, and a bit less as a partisan of a Chosen, but still enough to make it worthwhile.
When I joined a Merchant House, I think I made something like 250 'sids in two weeks total.
When a master crafted item came up, they were all fighting to see what share should be given to me, and I had absolutely no perks in staying in that House.
I could have gone on my own and make the 8000-12000 profit just the same, instead of getting something like 20% and being told exactly what I needed to do, instead of picking it myself.
I'm absolutely surprised to see the amount of merchant PCs currently in game, I just couldn't wait to get out of that role myself when I was one of the only one a few months ago.
I can make nearly as much as I could with my merchant PC with just a subclass craft.
Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).
It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."
I just think that's very sad.
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Indies often make more than clanned people. However, those examples malken gave sound a little too much
What Malken says is basically true Ghost. I just think it's a real shame that the "I can make 10,000 sids in a few RL weeks why would my character want to work for Kadius?" mindset is so prevalent among the playerbase. I KNOW I can make that much, easy. I've done it. But it gets boring, and it's pretty pointless having 20,000 sids in the bank if all you're doing is crafting the same half-dozen things all day and selling them to NPC merchants. It gets boring. And frustrating. I wasn't even playing a master crafter. Hell I wasn't even playing a merchant. I just had a crafter subguild and I was getting rich quick. It got very old, very fast. I'd much rather play the game in the -spirit- in which it was intended, rather than groove on the coded coinage, now. My character probably won't ever be as rich as Malken's was. But I'd gladly play "for the prestige" over the sids anyday, now that I've had a few tastes of the latter.
I have also noticed that indie crafters spend more time grebbing, crafting and selling, and house crafters seem to spend more time bar sitting while on the clock (since they don't have things like food water, and a place to live to worry about). That COULD be why they don't make any money.
Except that there isn't any prestige in working for a GMH. No one's going to be all impressed because someone works for a GMH, seriously.
There also aren't any perks to working for a GMH, and there are significant disadvantages, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.
It's all well and good to go on carping about "the spirit of the game," but it doesn't change anything. If clan leaders don't offer real advantages to signing up, players will continue to not sign up.
Personally, you wouldn't catch me dead playing a minion-crafter (mastercrafter or otherwise) in a GMH right now.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 06:17:39 PM
Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).
It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."
I just think that's very sad.
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We both know that I played for a very long time only for the sake of prestige, and it certainly didn't come from being in a GMH, there's just not that much prestige in it, so.. ;)
But money is what usually gets you the prestige in the end.. You can tell me that my numbers are too much or I'm playing wrong, but the proof is in the pudding.
Look at all the merchants currently in game, the ones that are in the GMH are most often first time merchant players who aren't sure what to do, and when they realize that
everyone else is making a thousand 'sids a day being an independant, they quickly leave it.. Wishful thinking from the playerbase never makes anything better.
I gotta go eat, I don't play a merchant anymore and I certainly don't want to play one again for a very long time, I'm just saying what my experience was like, and my experience was very recent.
Yah, what Gimf says.
I think the arguments apply to most clans to be honest. I feel like I'm making huge sacrifices by joining a clan... that's not right.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 06:17:39 PM
Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).
It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."
I just think that's very sad.
This message sponsored by GMH Local 67.
While I can agree on some levels, there are other places where this is kind of flawed. There can be perfectly IC reasons which have nothing to do with coin that might cause people to not want to join merchant houses.
Also, 10,000 sid per RL week is a scary lot of coin, seriously. Maybe if it was a culmination one week of several other weeks worth of work (ie, a trade route that you've been building the products for for a few weeks).
Support your GMH's -and- your indies. After all, pc-to-pc interaction is the serious sweet-spot when you're playing a merchant. :D
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 06:17:39 PM
It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes.
There was a time last year when I thought it was a privilege to say "I am a Salarri". The PCs in the clan made quite the impression that they were not just joking around, but they were go-getters. When they moved to a city/outpost, they changed the atmosphere. I did say quite a few times by myself "I wish I was playing with these people" but could not due to the circumstances of my PC at that time. (there was one or two other clans that had good PC contribution, but Salarr was my favorite of that time)
Now that time is over, and since I am not playing anymore, I do not know if the clan is the same or if there is another clan having such PCs.
What Lizzie is saying is true in a way, yes the GMH, or noble houses, are not there to make you rich but they offer some "fringe benefits" that you can not otherwise have. It is expected to be a huge difference to be able to wear one's clan equipment and say that you are part of the said organisation. Yet, if being part of the clan seem like you are only wearing a different outfit and having regular payment, then clearly that is a problem how things are running and I am not sure how it can be fixed. Being part of a clan should NOT look like a burden, it should look like a privilege. It is a problem when an indie PC can make enough money to bribe the local templarate AND the crime organisations and still have more money/time left to get involved in things the clanned PCs may be restricted to.
It gets sad when noble PCs get desperate to hire someone, because people figure that when they are independent, they make more money, involved in more plots, stay in contact with more people, do not have to suffer chores or get stuck because "no PC in the clan this week". Several years ago, nobles sometimes visited local taverns to recruit guards and aides and they would have to sweet talk to a commoner because there was not anyone else in their clan, and few people were really interested. I think Atrium served a good purpose when it was open, it was making sure at least nobles will get aides.
I do not know how the current things are going in game, and I am only basing it all to malken's and lizzie's posts.
For me, I'd think being a crafter in a merchant house would net you more plots and stuff. Then again, I'm not thinking of a master crafter in weapons, but say, a master cook. You can cook -anything- you want, so when someone has a party, they want -you- to be the one to provide the dishes. Perhaps someone wants someone at the party dead. You let them in and poison a specific dish that said person will be eating.
Thats only just thinking, but maybe "Master Crafter" is something completely different. I'm kind of dumb.
Why are you not playing, Ghost?
You Fale.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 30, 2008, 06:39:02 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 06:17:39 PM
Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).
It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."
I just think that's very sad.
This message sponsored by GMH Local 67.
While I can agree on some levels, there are other places where this is kind of flawed. There can be perfectly IC reasons which have nothing to do with coin that might cause people to not want to join merchant houses.
Also, 10,000 sid per RL week is a scary lot of coin, seriously. Maybe if it was a culmination one week of several other weeks worth of work (ie, a trade route that you've been building the products for for a few weeks).
Support your GMH's -and- your indies. After all, pc-to-pc interaction is the serious sweet-spot when you're playing a merchant. :D
Oh, I hope you don't think I meant that I was making 10,000 sids a RL week, I meant that in the GMH I was in, that was usually the price asked for master crafted items, and out of the 10,000 sids, I had to fight to maybe get 20% of it,
when I could have just gotten the material required to do it all myself and without the help of the House.
Oh, and to reply to Riev, the best plots ever with my merchant came from being partisan under Chosens and Faithfuls.. I don't really recall any exciting plots from being in a GMH, but I had insanely fun adventures as a partisan, that I'll probably never get again.
From what I understand, the atmosphere of high level merchanting is significantly oppressive. Leaders that won't help the merchants acquire required goods + stifling acquisition and sale requirements = not a fun thing to do. Why would people do something that's not fun?
Quote from: Riev on November 30, 2008, 06:46:10 PM
For me, I'd think being a crafter in a merchant house would net you more plots and stuff. Then again, I'm not thinking of a master crafter in weapons, but say, a master cook. You can cook -anything- you want, so when someone has a party, they want -you- to be the one to provide the dishes.
While it may have merit in theory, practically it does not work like than (at least, more often than not). Assume your character is particularly good in one aspect. What are the odds that your clan will be able to make something that will require your specialty? How many times do you think it will happen?
I will just throw you some numbers. Let's take your master cook as an example. In his entire life, I would wager that a master cook of Kadius could have a chance of using his specialty ONCE that is at best. I mean, assuming the House have a city wide opening, they might include a dinner that your master cook could contribute. This I think will happen only once througout a life long time of staying with Kadius.
Now imagine the same master cook being independent, the chances will improve greatly. Not only this cook can start something all by himself (such as organizing a feast about any particular event. All he has to do is to contact to the local templarate and he won't be constrained to run this through his IG boss and the House NPCs) he can also offer his services to ALL the clans in the city. Anytime there is a Fale party, or a Gith Massacre RPT, or a Salarr Auction or Kadian Showroom, he can simply contact to the PCs organizing the RPT and get involved.
Of course, what I am picturing here is a general case. You can be LoD and have a street named after you, while being part of a clan. Though, the odds are in the independents' favor, and it should not be so.
Quote from: Riev on November 30, 2008, 06:46:10 PM
Perhaps someone wants someone at the party dead. You let them in and poison a specific dish that said person will be eating.
Unfortunately that does not work in practical situations as well. Just think about a RPT of 10 PCs and imagine you are the cook. Now imagine how you will realistically handle the food, line by line and how you will deliver the poison (mad props to you if you can manage that). Then put yourself in the victim's position and how you would react if someone could (trust me they won't be able to) poison you, how you would react. Then imagine the aftermath of this little scene and how things will resolve.
There is more constraints following this, but I guess the scene above is impossible enough to pull, that I don't need to mention anything else.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 06:25:33 PM
What Malken says is basically true Ghost. I just think it's a real shame that the "I can make 10,000 sids in a few RL weeks why would my character want to work for Kadius?" mindset is so prevalent among the playerbase. I KNOW I can make that much, easy. I've done it.
I was actually referring to this, but I made a mistake here and misread the time frame. And I meant for an indie, too.
Edited to clarify.
Quote from: Kryos on November 30, 2008, 07:20:34 PM
From what I understand, the atmosphere of high level merchanting is significantly oppressive. Leaders that won't help the merchants acquire required goods + stifling acquisition and sale requirements = not a fun thing to do. Why would people do something that's not fun?
This has -nothing- to do with the leader PCs. I think that is a HUGE misinterpretation of things. The leaders are under the same restrictions. And these restrictions make sense. If you work for Salarr as a clanned employee, you are not allowed to sell TO Salarr. You are also not allowed to sell armor or weapons to anyone else, unless you are one of the Salarr merchants. It's called a conflict of interest, and it's just as valid in the game as it is in real life. If you are making software for Microsoft, you aren't allowed to sell software to anyone else while you're doing so (and probably not for some ridiculous thing like 20 years after you leave, as well). You're also not allowed to sell software independently to MS, while you are employed by MS. It's your job to make software. You are being paid to do it. They're not gonna pay you twice for the same thing.
Salarr won't pay you twice - (salary + commission + food + water + shelter + raw materials + proprietary finished goods) + (being allowed to sell your duskhorn leather collar at their shop). They'd be paying you TWICE. That duskhorn hide belongs to Salarr, not you. You don't have the -right- to profit from it, above and beyond what the House is already giving you.
That's how it's set up. Kadius, Kurac, and Salarr ALL have rules to that effect. Some individual leader PCs might not be as strict about the rules, but those -are- the rules, and leaders who are caught violating them or encouraging others to violate them, have both IC and OOC consequences. ICly, they get yelled at, or removed, or demoted, or worse. OOCly, they might not be trusted to play a sponsored role like that again for awhile.
These rules aren't new. My first character was a Salarri, before I ever knew about these rules. I read the rules then, for Salarr. My next character was a Kuraci. I read the rules in the Kurac-only docs. When I had a PC employed by Kadius, I read the rules. Some of this stuff dates back to 2002. Nothing has changed, it's no more restrictive than it's ever been. But the -players- have learned "how to get rich" and it's made it difficult to keep interest in the GMHs as a result of it.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 30, 2008, 08:26:29 PM
But the -players- have learned "how to get rich" and it's made it difficult to keep interest in the GMHs as a result of it.
Sounds like we need the imms to switch things up.
I think this could also be helped by having more people who can hire around from GMH's. Seriously, I have yet to have a merchant who hasn't mastered at least one craft before finally finding someone from a GMH who could hire them on. Also, I don't think it would be right to 'switch things up' in order to get people to join up with GMH's. That's where the problem lies. Whether it be differences in the possible profits made (even less hiring of the Byn, more 'spamcrafting' through the low skill times to keep yourself fed, and etc.). I think it really lies in the representation (or lack thereof) in certain areas, especially at certain times of day. Not to mention the fact that a lot of hardcore patriots of their repective city-states aren't going to want to spend lots of time in the other one. (IMO)
Under the current situation, I suspect that the GMHs, provided that nothing else changes to make employment attractive with them, should force successful indies to join or suffer. If nothing else, the perk of joining the GMHs should be 'your life, your families life, your little dog Toto's life...'
There's lots of ways to manage this. Indies will cry foul, but it's your fault for being more successful than you should be. There is a real reason that the docs state that the GMHs have monopolies, and thus basically no competition.
As a GMH Staffer, I'd create guidelines, such as 'competition must be in this market, making this much money, attracting these customers, etc' so that indies have some sorta niche, but frankly, for the most part, I think GMHs should absolutely smother indies.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 01:13:53 AM
As a GMH Staffer, I'd create guidelines, such as 'competition must be in this market, making this much money, attracting these customers, etc' so that indies have some sorta niche, but frankly, for the most part, I think GMHs should absolutely smother indies.
Yeah. Punishing people is a great way to create goodwill in the game. Let's force people into GMHs, since apparently we suck too much to make clanned life interesting. Why bother trying to create plots, adequately reward PCs, or make GMHs interesting when we can just smack players around until they cower at the GMHs' mostly-virtual might?
Well, that's pretty much what happened to make these monopolies in the first place.
Obviously it won't create goodwill. But if Merchant Houses simply will not have any perks that appeal to players, giving them a reason to play in the Merchant Houses, then what do -you- think should happen? It seems to me that players are either ignoring the IC reality of the Houses, or that the Houses are not longer concerned about monopolies, and that seems a bit unlikely.
You'll note that I stated that this should happen in the current situation, given that nothing changes. Obviously, I would hope things change. But that sort of has to start at the top, with Staff allowing PCs to implement new guidelines or Staff implementing them themselves.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 01:23:42 AM
Obviously it won't create goodwill. But if Merchant Houses simply will not have any perks that appeal to players, giving them a reason to play in the Merchant Houses, then what do -you- think should happen? It seems to me that players are either ignoring the IC reality of the Houses, or that the Houses are not longer concerned about monopolies, and that seems a bit unlikely.
All it takes is good leadership.
All it takes is good leadership.
All it takes is good leadership.
Look at Salarr last year. Look at any time LoD has played a GMH leader. Look at Shatuka of Kurac--yeah, she was a military leader, but she was in a GMH and I doubt she ever lacked for minions.
All it takes is good leadership. Minions of all kinds will follow.
*chuckle*
Alright, Gimf. You tout your leadership.
I'll tout good leadership and making House Merchants and Independent Merchants more balanced in terms of appeal.
We can both win.
They are already balanced, IF there was good leadership in the GMHs. Good leadership, plot involvement, access to clan recipes, safety with clannies, group adventuring, access to cool clan equipment, special training opportunities...these are the logical perks of GMH membership. The problem is that accessing these perks requires good leadership first--a leader who can advocate, organize, and reward.
There's no other balancing needed. The playerbase recognizes that the perks are inaccessible because good leadership is not in play. Therefore PCs don't join the GMHs.
Personally, I abhor the idea of rewarding poor leadership in the GMHs with extra muscle to force PCs to join.
Quote
I think the arguments apply to most clans to be honest. I feel like I'm making huge sacrifices by joining a clan... that's not right.
I don't feel that way.
My top ten reasons for playing in a clan:
- Clans give you a pool of PC's to regularly RP with. Often these are people who you might not get to interact one on one with otherwise. And whether they are awesome veterans who just make the world come alive or newbies who you get the fun of helping interact with the world, your own RP and enjoyment of the game is enriched tenfold.
- I like the hierarchy. Sometimes I like being a boss. Sometimes I like just being a peon who gets bossed around. Sometimes I'm ambitious and try to work up through the ranks.
- I like the prestige. If my PC believes herself that there is prestige in it, then dammit, there is.
- Apparently, I really suck at this game and have never discovered the secret of making 10K a week.
- Each new clan you go into gives you a whole different mindset and perspective on the gameworld, formed not only from its collective set-in-stone mission statement but also from the dynamics of its current membership.
[/list]
Alright, Gimf. I agree with you completely. I'll put aside my perspective on the matter.
While I do appreciate the brain storming 7DV, I have to agree with Gimf that from an OOC perspective, as a player who's trying to enjoy the game, getting beat up by GHM's, forced to join or die, and then being bored with how dull life has become under the house clan that you're just sitting there next to another guy going: You with Kaidus too? Yeah me too ... man ... this sucks ... -- is probably not the best way to breath life back into the GMH's.
I do agree that those kinds of things should be the GMH's MO, but I think it might be better if they reared that ugly head a little away from the players ... not completely, but a bit ... and just expressed it in other ways. Like, for example, a leader within a GMH assigning an underling or two to making sure Indie NPC merchant X is losing customers and being out-marketed. That should soften him up for when the Agents stop by to give him "the offer".
Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters. :D
You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in town, I would be pissed...
Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.
Quote from: Medena on December 01, 2008, 02:04:43 AM
Quote
I think the arguments apply to most clans to be honest. I feel like I'm making huge sacrifices by joining a clan... that's not right.
I don't feel that way.
My top ten reasons for playing in a clan:
- Clans give you a pool of PC's to regularly RP with. Often these are people who you might not get to interact one on one with otherwise. And whether they are awesome veterans who just make the world come alive or newbies who you get the fun of helping interact with the world, your own RP and enjoyment of the game is enriched tenfold.
- I like the hierarchy. Sometimes I like being a boss. Sometimes I like just being a peon who gets bossed around. Sometimes I'm ambitious and try to work up through the ranks.
- I like the prestige. If my PC believes herself that there is prestige in it, then dammit, there is.
- Apparently, I really suck at this game and have never discovered the secret of making 10K a week.
- Each new clan you go into gives you a whole different mindset and perspective on the gameworld, formed not only from its collective set-in-stone mission statement but also from the dynamics of its current membership.
[/list]
Which are why you as a player would enjoy the GMH. None of which, however, are IC reasons for joining. I look at it that while -I- the player would love to join the House because it would be more fun my PC doesn't give a rats ass about fun, they're thinking "What's the best for me"
And for 7DV idea, just because you may not like it doesn't make it any less true. I already know of one GMH that deals in a specific item that if anybody else begins to deal to much in that item they will be spoken to. The rest of the GMH's need to step up. Though, I think (not to take your idea out of context 7DV) it only would happen if you were big timing it. If you make 10000 'sid in one RL week selling jewelry then yeah, I'd imagine Kadius should get pretty pissed.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:27:59 AM
All it takes is good leadership.
GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.
If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k. If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.
Oh God.
I feel vindicated.
*grin*
I wish there were better provisions in a GMH for a crafter outfitting the other employees. As it stands, my experience is that employees cant afford to buy much, even on discount. If, instead, GMH had some elite troops or employees that crafters could sign on to specifically support as part of their duties, it might make for some fun and goal driven groups.
Quote from: Halcyon on December 01, 2008, 03:21:04 AM
I wish there were better provisions in a GMH for a crafter outfitting the other employees. As it stands, my experience is that employees cant afford to buy much, even on discount. If, instead, GMH had some elite troops or employees that crafters could sign on to specifically support as part of their duties, it might make for some fun and goal driven groups.
There are
elite divisions in some Houses, be they GMH or Noble that
do have fun insignia to parade around in.
How do you get into a position to be a supplier for these groups? Be a good salesmen, of yourself or of what you make, then convince said group to adopt your stuff as part of their official or unofficial uniform. It's been done before, let's see it done, again.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 02:20:42 AM
Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters. :D
You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in my shop in the market, I would order the NPC in the shop to refuse to do any business with that filthy scum independent, ever again, and then put a bounty out on his ass...
Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.
Fixed part in bold...
Quote from: Vanth on December 01, 2008, 02:42:19 AM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:27:59 AM
All it takes is good leadership.
GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.
If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k. If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.
The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 09:17:54 AM
Quote from: Vanth on December 01, 2008, 02:42:19 AM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:27:59 AM
All it takes is good leadership.
GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.
If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k. If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.
The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!
It goes both ways. If you're unable to give me what I need, GMH, and you kill the independent who CAN, I will make it my life's work to see your House go down in flames. And don't you think that I can't do it, either.
Indies should either stay outta certain markets, stick to certain products, be subtle and tricky about their shit, or do what's going to be easier and join a House. If this is the serious Staff response, like I hope it is, things'll even out.
But yeh, GMH's better do a good job making their job attractive regardless.
Bwahaha.
Reiterating:
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:42:09 AM
I abhor the idea of rewarding poor leadership in the GMHs with extra muscle to force PCs to join.
Shit like that, honestly, makes me want to quit ARM. And yeah, I'm kind of thinking about it daily right now.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 11:53:25 AM
Reiterating:
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:42:09 AM
I abhor the idea of rewarding poor leadership in the GMHs with extra muscle to force PCs to join.
Shit like that, honestly, makes me want to quit ARM. And yeah, I'm kind of thinking about it daily right now.
I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 09:17:54 AM
The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!
If I was currently playing my merchant, I'd be so unafraid of this it's not even funny.
There are plenty of ways for the indie crafters to protect themselves against such threats, and if they play their cards right, they become virtually untouchable.
I feel really bad for any GMH who has to be the first one to start enforcing this again, it's a very thin line to follow, if you bully people around too much, you'll be known as such, and no one will want to
play under you, but if no one do anything about it, then the situation will continue.
I've never ever felt threatened to join a GMH with my merchant, actually, in the end, I sort of did it out of pity for the friends of my character and, probably, out of boredom. You just have to be smart
about it.. If you go to the Sanctuary and brag that you can make a thousand 'sids a day by selling silks and that's why you don't need a job, then yes, you deserve the trouble that it brings you.
*********************************************************************
I was going to start another topic about how totally out of whack and easy it is to make money with way too many crafts, most of them available as a subclass crafter only, but I just don't really have
the energy or drive to do so.. When I think about it, it's really a huge mess and I don't really know how we could fix it, like I told someone, it's like a Jenga game, if you take a piece out, you risk
the whole thing crumbling apart.
Money brought me prestige, not the other way around, that's for damn certain.
*********************************************************************
PS: Please stop with the 10000 'sids a week, I already said once that this was for a master crafter item, I've never said that you could usually do this.
Now it feels that many are using that number just because they have no argument against what is being said in this thread, except for, "Join Clans, they're awesome fun!"
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 11:55:48 AM
I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.
Oh, if only that was true. However, we all know how easy it is to get away with PKing behind compound walls, with friendly NPCs nearby and ready to assist. 90% of GMH leaders given a license to pressure PCs into joining will go for the simple, easy solution...PK-fest! And that'll be really, really good for the game.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 12:12:40 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 11:55:48 AM
I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.
Oh, if only that was true. However, we all know how easy it is to get away with PKing behind compound walls, with friendly NPCs nearby and ready to assist. 90% of GMH leaders given a license to pressure PCs into joining will go for the simple, easy solution...PK-fest! And that'll be really, really good for the game.
It doesn't really address the issue either - clanned roles still lack appeal.
I mean, the whole "kill the competition" thing sort of works... so can Tor and the militia start press ganging warriors? I don't think killing proficient characters that refuse to join your house is a solution, at all.
I believe that the GMH should do away with competition that refuses to listen to 'reason.' But clanned roles
also need to be somewhat appealing for players, and not just new players that don't know how to survive on their own yet.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 12:12:40 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 11:55:48 AM
I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.
Oh, if only that was true. However, we all know how easy it is to get away with PKing behind compound walls, with friendly NPCs nearby and ready to assist. 90% of GMH leaders given a license to pressure PCs into joining will go for the simple, easy solution...PK-fest! And that'll be really, really good for the game.
I doubt, for one thing, that they will actually be able to convince said victim to be in a position like that. Secondly, I think that Clan Staff would be pretty heavy handed about such actions. Obviously, the Merchant is not capable of being slick. I just don't see this sort of thing happening, Gimf. I think players will suffer or be slicker than you suspect.
I say, let's see what happens, in any case. You may be surprised.
Furthermore, I would like to see staff for the GMHs set out harsh guidelines about how to challenge indie merchants. I would like to see excessive or border-line twinky behavior punished harshly. I have been the victim of such a killing, and the staffer at the time was livid about how it was done. I see no reason why this would not be the case across the board.
I would encourage staff to consider punishing House merchants who can not handle most of these issues in a way that does not involve tactics. Robbery is fine. Making their lives miserable is fine. Rumors are fine. Subtle stuff is fine. But like nobles, merchants should have to engage in the same sort of political fuckery, just on a different level.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 12:27:33 PM
I doubt, for one thing, that they will actually be able to convince said victim to be in a position like that.
Sure, a GMH leader bent on PKing won't be able to convince a veteran player's PC to come along into the compound for a nice friendly cup of tea. Veteran players won't be the ones to bear the brunt of this new pogrom against indie merchants. Nah, it'll be newbies who don't know better who are unable to figure out how to politically cover themselves, and who then get the benefit of the RPless, unexplained death.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 12:27:33 PMSecondly, I think that Clan Staff would be pretty heavy handed about such actions.
Punishment is not prevention.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 12:27:33 PMI say, let's see what happens, in any case. You may be surprised.
I say I'll start avoiding the majority of GMH leaders, just like I avoid the majority of nobles and templars, too.
Quote from: Vanth on December 01, 2008, 02:42:19 AM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:27:59 AM
All it takes is good leadership.
GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.
If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k. If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.
This reinforces my perception that independents are not welcome in the game these days.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 12:52:13 PM
I say I'll start avoiding the majority of GMH leaders, just like I avoid the majority of nobles and templars, too.
Seconded.
Also, this:
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 01, 2008, 12:52:56 PM
Quote from: Vanth on December 01, 2008, 02:42:19 AM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:27:59 AM
All it takes is good leadership.
GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.
If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k. If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.
This reinforces my perception that independents are not welcome in the game these days.
Seriously.
I think attempting to force indie crafters into such currently un-fun situations as forced recruitment into a GMH or else is simply going to end up in the storage and subsequent total lack of PC crafters anyway. I'm not going to play in a situation I don't consider fun. I wouldn't expect anyone else to. Muscling out the indie crafters in the current atmosphere is only likely to leave a complete lack of crafters, period.
If you want fewer indie crafters and more GMH crafters, become a leader that's going to be fun and attractive to work with. I was in Salarr last year under their awesome leadership and I do not once remember us having a lack of anyone wanting to join the party, merchant class or otherwise. That isn't to say that the current GMH PCs are terrible leaders or anything like that, but I have played in both of the major cities recently, and I have only seen two GMH family members consistently. Combined total of both cities, in the last couple of months. Visibility is a huge part of attracting other cool, fun people to your party.
Third. If you are an active, cool, and fun enough leader to even notice that Indie Crafter Joe is taking your business, and you are willing to start plots to stop him... then you're probably active, cool, and fun enough that people are going to want to join your GMH anyway. To me it would seem to be a self-solving problem at that point.
What are you going to do next, force all of the indie hunters into your GMH? The strategy just makes no sense. If you want more GMH crafters, be the cool GMH leader that makes them want to join.
Quote from: Tisiphone on December 01, 2008, 09:20:11 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 09:17:54 AM
Quote from: Vanth on December 01, 2008, 02:42:19 AM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:27:59 AM
All it takes is good leadership.
GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.
If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k. If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.
The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!
It goes both ways. If you're unable to give me what I need, GMH, and you kill the independent who CAN, I will make it my life's work to see your House go down in flames. And don't you think that I can't do it, either.
See, now we're all having fun, Armageddon style.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 01:23:42 AM
Well, that's pretty much what happened to make these monopolies in the first place.
It's odd how plenty of little armor, weapon, clothing, food, wine shops, stands and businesses can be found around the game world, but since they're NPC owned, no GMH seems to care. Yet if a PC dares to sell a scrap of armor to someone else, assassins should be the natural consequence?
As long as it was a PC merchant hiring a PC assassin to get rid of other PC competition, I would be down with that. It's when you start involving NPCs and vNPCs to try and force an external will on PCs that are doing well for themselves that I think there's a problem.
I still stand by if the PC is cool and active and connected enough that they recognize someone else is fucking them over, and are going to start a plot to get rid of them, and pull in other players... then they're probably a good leader that's going to attract other cool people to their cause regardless of the crappy pay and utter lack of perks available for crafters in a GMH versus indie crafters. Because it has happened before and with the right leadership it'll happen again.
I think it's been obviously demonstrated that people don't join a clan for the pay. The benefits of joining a clan are directly inherent in being around the fun, cool, plot-loving people in that clan. If you aren't fun cool and plot-loving, you aren't going to attract anyone to your clan, regardless of how much enforcement you shove down their throats. If you don't provide your GMH crafters with funness, coolness, and plots, then you aren't going to keep them no matter how much enforcement you're cramming on everyone else.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 01, 2008, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 01:23:42 AM
Well, that's pretty much what happened to make these monopolies in the first place.
It's odd how plenty of little armor, weapon, clothing, food, wine shops, stands and businesses can be found around the game world, but since they're NPC owned, no GMH seems to care. Yet if a PC dares to sell a scrap of armor to someone else, assassins should be the natural consequence?
That's a good point, hey, GMH, before you start going after the PC that sells his shitty scrapers made out of agate and bone longswords, why don't you go after all of the independant NPC shops that are, often, the cause of said independant PCs getting wealthy?
Oh, wait, I'll be told to find out IC why they don't, right.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 09:24:48 AM
If this is the serious Staff response, like I hope it is, things'll even out.
This is me giving you guys ideas for how to solve the perceived "problem" in game, not providing an official staff response.
Another idea would be to play characters who have grown up in oppressive poverty (you are commoners) and truly believe that it's an honor and a privilege to have the protection, companionship, and job security that come from joining a House.
I'm not saying that people playing indys aren't roleplaying properly. I'm just saying you can choose to play other types of characters. If you don't, that's fine too.
For goodness sake ... I give up.
Early in this thread, many ideas were shared about how to make clans worth joining, particularly, in this case, Merchant Houses. Unfortunately, outside of 'good leadership', nothing can be agreed on. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that 'good leadership' gets discouraged just like the rest of you do, and nothing gets changed until one of those rare players come along that will tolerate building an organization from the ground up.
There are not so many of those 'rare players'. This seems to mean that it is impossible to ever have more than a few clans prospering at one time. Perhaps this is only my preception, but perhaps it is not.
In any case, I give up arguing about this. I understand the points about forcing PCs to play in situations that end up not being fun for them, and that is not something I would want to see. It seems conflict is not something that appeals to everyone. There is no win-win in this situation, without one of those long-lived, fun PCs to rebirth specific hurting clans, and the last thing we need is people avoiding other PCs simply because of a paranoia of conflict.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 01:30:04 PM
outside of 'good leadership', nothing can be agreed on. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that 'good leadership' gets discouraged just like the rest of you do, and nothing gets changed until one of those rare players come along that will tolerate building an organization from the ground up.
There are not so many of those 'rare players'. This seems to mean that it is impossible to ever have more than a few clans prospering at one time. Perhaps this is only my preception, but perhaps it is not.
The elephant in the room is: Why do good player-leaders become discouraged and frustrated and then stop playing leadership? Of the players who successfully did leadership in 2006-2007--the ones who are remembered in their clans and by many players--the vast majority are not doing leadership now.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 01:30:04 PMI understand the points about forcing PCs to play in situations that end up not being fun for them, and that is not something I would want to see. It seems conflict is not something that appeals to everyone. There is no win-win in this situation, without one of those long-lived, fun PCs to rebirth specific hurting clans, and the last thing we need is people avoiding other PCs simply because of a paranoia of conflict.
It's not about not wanting conflict, or being paranoid of it. It's about not being interested in one-sided, no-win, "because I can" conflict. It's about conflict being a poor substitute for Story. It's about me not being interested in subsidizing someone else's enjoyment of ARM via my PC's death.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on December 01, 2008, 01:16:48 PM
As long as it was a PC merchant hiring a PC assassin to get rid of other PC competition, I would be down with that. It's when you start involving NPCs and vNPCs to try and force an external will on PCs that are doing well for themselves that I think there's a problem.
That is so difficult that I doubt there would be much practical application. I remember a Kadian house member hiring Serpent to kill an NPC shopkeeper. But I have not witnessed much of that kind of business after that. It is doable, though very very rare (since the recent changes to the crimecode, maybe things are better in terms of assassin availability)
The thing is, I think GMH PCs should have better initiative. At least for certain things, they should be able to make changes in dealings with other houses on the fly, without requiring to run it through clan NPCs. This may very well change the scales in GMH favor.
For example: Your Salarr PC learns that Sergeant of House Fale just bought a nice hammer from a random nobody, your PC should be able to mention this to a PC templar that if House Fale is doing business with incompetent nobodies, then perhaps next time their House needs to buy a full set of swords for the entire House guards (NPC/vNPC included) the prices may not remain the same. If Salarr just increases the price of a piece of equipment by 10 coins, I think it will make a significant effect for House Fale, enough for whoever is the superior of the said PC to have a talk with them.
Now, is it going to solve it? Yes it may help. The GMH PCs can also limit the independent PCs interaction with the rest of the city. The more you make it troublesome for doing any type of business for the independents, the more you are making sure there won't be more spreading around.
You can also get rid of them by hiring PC assassins, though the independents often make enough coin to feed the templarate AND the criminal PCs to keep themselves safe. When I played Serpent, I remember an elf pickpocket, who was giving my assassin so much coin so that I would not get rid of him, the amount of coin to top that and kill him was measuring the assassination of a noble.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:40:28 PM
The elephant in the room is: Why do good player-leaders become discouraged and frustrated and then stop playing leadership? Of the players who successfully did leadership in 2006-2007--the ones who are remembered in their clans and by many players--the vast majority are not doing leadership now.
That's a good question.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 01, 2008, 01:55:13 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2008, 01:40:28 PM
The elephant in the room is: Why do good player-leaders become discouraged and frustrated and then stop playing leadership? Of the players who successfully did leadership in 2006-2007--the ones who are remembered in their clans and by many players--the vast majority are not doing leadership now.
That's a good question.
Maybe because they realize that they can get the same satisfaction of playing Armageddon, but without all of the headaches, by playing an independant?
Indepedant != solo roleplay.
It equals being able to log in and off whenever you want to, not having to deal with superiors, who usually most of the time appear when you mess up, you don't have to deal with recruits and newbies, you have much less rules to follow
and you can still build something great from the ground up and be remembered for it all in the future, but, again, without the usual headaches involved in being a clan leader.
You can't really blame someone for being selfish on a game. I certainly don't. I love playing independants, it doesn't make me want to shoot myself in the face nightly.
Why don't leaders in games keep doing it? Because its a thankless job. Though its not on Arm, the short story to follow bears weight here. I led a guild in WoW through the entire BC. We did well, killed everything in the game. But when the next content increase came out, I offed the guild. Why? Why toss something that was working well?
No one gave a shit. That's why. What about me? My loot? My needs? This was all the players had going on in their mind. And so, I wasted four hours a night of my life doing a thankless job with no compensation. It helped me achieve my goals, but it wasn't worth the trade off.
I think you'll find most leadership, staff, or positions of that kind of nature always bear the burden of thanklessness in the gaming environment. You're responsible for the fun of others, and most of time all you hear is bitching. Takes a certain kind of masochist. But, let me say, that its not all doom and gloom. Some times click rather nicely and it doesn't feel like a job any more. But that takes both a talented leader and capable, eager subordinates.
As for GMH's. They give this offer: I take out all the fun of playing this character, and nuke many freedoms. In return, you get to keep playing it! Hurray! This sounds like a bad, raw deal. I know its being looked at in 2.a, but sheesh Maybe we need revolution sooner.
Quote from: Kryos on December 01, 2008, 03:53:56 PM
Why don't leaders in games keep doing it? Because its a thankless job.
Quote from: Kryos on December 01, 2008, 03:53:56 PM
But, let me say, that its not all doom and gloom. Some times click rather nicely and it doesn't feel like a job any more. But that takes both a talented leader and capable, eager subordinates.
Leaders play to have fun, just like everyone else. A good leader's fun consists in both leading well and enjoying the fruits of doing so. Most times, even when one pours heart and soul into this game, one gets at most semisweet memories in return.
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 02:20:42 AM
Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters. :D
You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in my shop in the market, I would order the NPC in the shop to refuse to do any business with that filthy scum independent, ever again, and then put a bounty out on his ass...
Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.
Fixed part in bold...
Nice fix, Lizz!
Quote from: Tisiphone on December 01, 2008, 03:59:02 PM
Most times, even when one pours heart and soul into this game, one gets at most semisweet memories in return.
And minions who pamper and adore you! *flutters eyelashes*
Seriously, volunteer leadership sucks the life out of people. It's no mystery and it's not Arm-specific. Go look at any volunteer work and you'll see this. My frame of reference is from growing up in small churches where a few people (usually women) would take on huge teaching, cleaning, and cooking loads and do *everything* at the church until they would finally have hysterical break-downs and leave. Then the church would be dirty for a while, there'd be no fun events and meals or Bible studies, and people would grouse. Then eventually some new person or people would step forward to have their souls drained and the cycle would repeat.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 02:20:42 AM
Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters. :D
You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in my shop in the market, I would order the NPC in the shop to refuse to do any business with that filthy scum independent, ever again, and then put a bounty out on his ass...
Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.
Fixed part in bold...
Nice fix, Lizz!
But the strange thing is that you usually don't need those Salarr and Kadius shops to make a small fortune as an independant, usually, independant shops pay even more for that armor you're trying to sell to them..
Independants would still make a fortune even if they were kicked out of Salarr or Kadius, maybe a smaller fortuner, but still a fortune.
A drastic need would be needed.. Like shops suddenly stop buying any finished goods, independant merchants should just be able to sell parts that are needed in those finished goods.
Like, in a Kadius shop, you should only be able to sell moonstone buttons and obsidian buckles, you shouldn't be able to sell silky dresses and fancy hats.
Same with Salarr, you should only be able to sell them wooden hilts and leather straps, not obsidian breastplates and such.
There, I solved the problem.
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
stuff.
That's why you are putting a hit on them. If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.
Why are you putting a hit on anyone instead of demanding a cut of their profits first?
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PMLike, in a Kadius shop, you should only be able to sell moonstone buttons and obsidian buckles, you shouldn't be able to sell silky dresses and fancy hats.
Same with Salarr, you should only be able to sell them wooden hilts and leather straps, not obsidian breastplates and such.
There, I solved the problem.
That actually makes sense. Accept raw materials and craftable stuff, not finished goods. Perhaps the things bought could go in some backroom warehouse accessible to PCs, in case there is ever any dearth of materials (hahahahahahaha oh man I kill myself). The backroom would not be a save room, so each time the game reboots, it gets cleaned out (by VNPC crafters).
Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 01, 2008, 04:35:18 PM
Why are you putting a hit on anyone instead of demanding a cut of their profits first?
Also, this.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 04:32:11 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
stuff.
That's why you are putting a hit on them. If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.
I hope you're also placing a hit on the independant shop owners that are actually the ones encouraging the independant PCs to sell to them by offering them huge amount of coins in exchange for their goods.
I actually have taken time to step back and look at this all. I have been looking at it from the perspective of maintaining the Merchant Families' monopolies. Looking at it from another perspective, geared more towards intended changes in 2.0, things could very well be heading in the right direction story wise.
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:43:57 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 04:32:11 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
stuff.
That's why you are putting a hit on them. If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.
I hope you're also placing a hit on the independant shop owners that are actually the ones encouraging the independant PCs to sell to them by offering them huge amount of coins in exchange for their goods.
great Idea, thanks... I would prob hire an assassin to knwo them off, then burning the building down inside to make somone thing kit was an accident.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 04:32:11 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
stuff.
That's why you are putting a hit on them. If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.
Why does everything have to progressively move to extremes in Arm?
So merchants are now the latest sort of outcast, to be reviled like magickers except when safely "collared" (i.e. reduced to servitude of a GMH family's interests)?
As I've pointed out before, each GMH has a total lock on a very profitable market.
Kurac is spice, obviously. If some independent merchant tries to deal in spice, fine, he or she is asking for trouble.
Salarr is armor and weapons
for the armies. This must be a huge market by itself, dwarfing all sales to individuals. I'd go as far to suggest that individual sales (except of top-end items like metal weapons) is pocket change to Salarr.
Kadius has a lock on the silkers market. Maybe they'd get upset if an independent merchant started to sell high-end silks, but they're hardly going to care about linens, sandcloth, onyx rings and other crap, in my opinion, because there's just not that much money in those.
So I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.
I just want to throw out there...
Some people, like myself, really enjoy being in a clan.
I know this isn't adding much but when I see people say certain things about GMH leadership or playing in a clan it just kind of sucks because while you may feel that way it doesn't mean the rest of the game world does.
I don't know...
Brandon
It's a catch 22... you need a good leader order to attract minions, but you need minions to prove that you are a good leader.
It is hard to do when you come into a leader wrole with no PC underlings already there.
QuoteSo I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.
I think people are missing a point made about when a GMH would care about independents - when they start making the social contacts to establish a House of their own and/or buy a wagon which would open the door for significant trade.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 01, 2008, 04:50:36 PM
As I've pointed out before, each GMH has a total lock on a very profitable market.
Kurac is spice, obviously. If some independent merchant tries to deal in spice, fine, he or she is asking for trouble.
Salarr is armor and weapons for the armies. This must be a huge market by itself, dwarfing all sales to individuals. I'd go as far to suggest that individual sales (except of top-end items like metal weapons) is pocket change to Salarr.
Kadius has a lock on the silkers market. Maybe they'd get upset if an independent merchant started to sell high-end silks, but they're hardly going to care about linens, sandcloth, onyx rings and other crap, in my opinion, because there's just not that much money in those.
So I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.
This is a great point. Unfortunately, it doesn't solve PC members, without 'great leadership'.
As I noted earlier, I find this a potentially good opportunity to transition to a indie system, and relegate the GMHs to a gradually more and more NPC role.
Quote from: Senga on December 01, 2008, 05:08:32 PM
QuoteSo I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.
I think people are missing a point made about when a GMH would care about independents - when they start making the social contacts to establish a House of their own and/or buy a wagon which would open the door for significant trade.
That's a thin line, isn't it?
On the one hand, your GMH wants to snuff them out. On the other - they're getting to be powerful. If the GMHs don't act quickly, when said Houses burn down the stall in the bazaar, the Templarate will come a'knockin', and 'twon't be for tea-time.
The Templarate would have been paid off beforehand. When the liscense was purchased.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 01, 2008, 05:28:21 PM
The Templarate would have been paid off beforehand. When the liscense was purchased.
Paid off.
For burning down a stall that's already paying proper taxes to the templarate.
And bringing in a decent profit in the sense of more sales taxes.
Not to mention the indirect economic benefits to the templarate, among which might be a sense of security in the citizens, the influx of second and third degree economic materiel, and as something to lean one other than the GMHs when a point needs making.
You'd better be paying a
hefty bribe, son.
"So, Senior Agent, what I want to do is burn down this stall so people have to come to us instead of going to him. I'll need 20,000 to pay off Lord Templar Hardnose."
"I see. Demanding a cut of their profits didn't work? Last I checked, he was doing a modest profit in linen sales."
"Er.. why would I bother with that?"
"Hm. Did they refuse to pay a fee to ensure their continued unhampered operation?"
"I.. didn't ask."
"So basically, what you want for us to do is spend 20,000 on this stupid shit with a stupid stall and annoy Lord Templar Hardnose, who is a very hardworking and busy man, and you haven't even tried to make a profit off of them before you burn them down?"
".... I'm gonna show myself out now."
"You do that. I expect to hear favorable progress reports next time."
Quote from: a strange shadow on December 01, 2008, 05:34:12 PM
"So, Senior Agent, what I want to do is burn down this stall so people have to come to us instead of going to him. I'll need 20,000 to pay off Lord Templar Hardnose."
"I see. Demanding a cut of their profits didn't work? Last I checked, he was doing a modest profit in linen sales."
"Er.. why would I bother with that?"
"Hm. Did they refuse to pay a fee to ensure their continued unhampered operation?"
"I.. didn't ask."
"So basically, what you want for us to do is spend 20,000 on this stupid shit with a stupid stall and annoy Lord Templar Hardnose, who is a very hardworking and busy man, and you haven't even tried to make a profit off of them before you burn them down?"
".... I'm gonna show myself out now."
"You do that. I expect to hear favorable progress reports next time."
OMG! THAT'S HOW IT GOES EVERY TIME I BRING AN AWESOME IDEA IN!!!!
When I paid Serpent to kill an NPC shopkeeper, the game crashed and the head disappeared.
When I told my imms, they told me that the shopkeeper really got away. Too bad.
That is why I havn't done that type of role for a loong time.
This is what would make me want to join a merchant house:
The chance to learn new skills. New skills that I will never beable to learn as an inde. Ones not in my skill tree.
Access to cheaper/free housing outside of the barracks.
Access to steady supply of materials to craft.
Safety. If a templar is in a bad mood, he isn't going to kill me.
RPTs with the Bynn!
Back in the old days, templars used to whack random people on the street. In a house, I know I won't be one of those poor bastards.
Quote from: Delstro on December 01, 2008, 06:00:22 PM
This is what would make me want to join a merchant house:
The chance to learn new skills. New skills that I will never beable to learn as an inde. Ones not in my skill tree.
Access to cheaper/free housing outside of the barracks.
Access to steady supply of materials to craft.
Safety. If a templar is in a bad mood, he isn't going to kill me.
RPTs with the Bynn!
Wow. This thread has been eye-opening. I had always assumed all of the above in addition to my assumption that GMHs exerted monopolies that directly affected the daily life of indy crafters.
How can the above not be the case? (Other than safety from Templars ...)
Well, in theory, it's all there.
In theory.
Boy I gotta say, all this talk about how GMHs should back off, and how there aren't any good GMH leaders and that's why no one wants to join the clans, would really REALLY encourage me to log in and lead my clan. It's just so heartwarming to hear players tell each other that they suck at something they've invested hours and hours and hours of IC and OOC time into doing..and I'm sure the staff is overjoyed and thrilled to tears at the insult that their judgement in PICKING those leaders can't be trusted.
Lizzie makes a good point.
Also, I think pressure on independents has so much potential for both GMH players and indie merchants. No, it doesn't have to be about crushing the competition as a first option. Conflict makes the Known World go 'round. Besides, indie merchants having an unobstructed path to wealth is boring.
As a side note, I think the game has had a serious problem with indie wealth, or perhaps just wealth in general. But that's a whole other topic, and we're already teetering at the far reaches of the original one.
Quote from: flurry on December 01, 2008, 06:38:50 PM
Lizzie makes a good point.
Also, I think pressure on independents has so much potential for both GMH players and indie merchants. No, it doesn't have to be about crushing the competition as a first option. Conflict makes the Known World go 'round. Besides, indie merchants having an unobstructed path to wealth is boring.
As a side note, I think the game has had a serious problem with indie wealth, or perhaps just wealth in general. But that's a whole other topic, and we're already teetering at the far reaches of the original one.
Unfortunately Flurry, there are a few people who are more than happy to post all the possible things people -could- do in game, instead of keeping quiet and DOING them. And all the possible consequences have already been detailed right here on the GDB...and all the possible outcomes of those consequences have already been gone over..
So, what's the point of logging in and playing a GMH clan leader again, if all the possible future plotlines have already been done here on the GDB? Someone remind me.
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 06:45:52 PM
Quote from: flurry on December 01, 2008, 06:38:50 PM
Lizzie makes a good point.
Also, I think pressure on independents has so much potential for both GMH players and indie merchants. No, it doesn't have to be about crushing the competition as a first option. Conflict makes the Known World go 'round. Besides, indie merchants having an unobstructed path to wealth is boring.
As a side note, I think the game has had a serious problem with indie wealth, or perhaps just wealth in general. But that's a whole other topic, and we're already teetering at the far reaches of the original one.
Unfortunately Flurry, there are a few people who are more than happy to post all the possible things people -could- do in game, instead of keeping quiet and DOING them. And all the possible consequences have already been detailed right here on the GDB...and all the possible outcomes of those consequences have already been gone over..
So, what's the point of logging in and playing a GMH clan leader again, if all the possible future plotlines have already been done here on the GDB? Someone remind me.
Um, I can think of at least 5 things off the top of my head that were not mentioned here.
(clipped all the stuff he was quoting to highlight his post by itself)
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
...(clip to his idea)
A drastic need would be needed.. Like shops suddenly stop buying any finished goods, independant merchants should just be able to sell parts that are needed in those finished goods.
Like, in a Kadius shop, you should only be able to sell moonstone buttons and obsidian buckles, you shouldn't be able to sell silky dresses and fancy hats.
Same with Salarr, you should only be able to sell them wooden hilts and leather straps, not obsidian breastplates and such.
There, I solved the problem.
I could get behind this idea, although, I think it would be appropriate to allow GMH NPCs to allow buybacks of their own product. Since GMH PCs aren't allowed to sell to those shops anyway, you'll have that assurance that the item -was- paid for by someone, and that money went to that GMH. So they're really only returning a portion of what was originally paid out. I would add also, that no GMH NPC should be buying filthy, smelly, used, cracked, or stained ANYTHING. I just can't understand why they do, I feel it is a huge oversight in the code and should be fixed. That's what the "lesser shops" are for.
I also feel that shops that sell only certain types of things, shouldn't buy other types of things. Like, a shop that sells only weapons and armor, should not buy silk.
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 06:26:49 PM
Boy I gotta say, all this talk about how GMHs should back off, and how there aren't any good GMH leaders and that's why no one wants to join the clans, would really REALLY encourage me to log in and lead my clan. It's just so heartwarming to hear players tell each other that they suck at something they've invested hours and hours and hours of IC and OOC time into doing..and I'm sure the staff is overjoyed and thrilled to tears at the insult that their judgement in PICKING those leaders can't be trusted.
You can't have a healthy discussion board if you don't want to see any criticism. Also, you seem to be taking it personally. If you're playing a GMH leader right now, remember the discussion isn't all about -you-.
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
A drastic need would be needed.. Like shops suddenly stop buying any finished goods, independant merchants should just be able to sell parts that are needed in those finished goods.
Like, in a Kadius shop, you should only be able to sell moonstone buttons and obsidian buckles, you shouldn't be able to sell silky dresses and fancy hats.
Same with Salarr, you should only be able to sell them wooden hilts and leather straps, not obsidian breastplates and such.
There, I solved the problem.
So you're either proposing that -everyone- not be able to, for example, sell a sword to Salarr, or that the shopkeeper somehow magically distinguishes between guild merchant characters and the rest? Neither option sounds that good.
Why should it be a problem for Salarr to buy a crafter-made weapon at 25 coins when it then turns around and lists it at 80 coins (and in principle sells some at that price) anyhow?
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 01, 2008, 09:28:11 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 01, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
A drastic need would be needed.. Like shops suddenly stop buying any finished goods, independant merchants should just be able to sell parts that are needed in those finished goods.
Like, in a Kadius shop, you should only be able to sell moonstone buttons and obsidian buckles, you shouldn't be able to sell silky dresses and fancy hats.
Same with Salarr, you should only be able to sell them wooden hilts and leather straps, not obsidian breastplates and such.
There, I solved the problem.
So you're either proposing that -everyone- not be able to, for example, sell a sword to Salarr, or that the shopkeeper somehow magically distinguishes between guild merchant characters and the rest? Neither option sounds that good.
Why should it be a problem for Salarr to buy a crafter-made weapon at 25 coins when it then turns around and lists it at 80 coins (and in principle sells some at that price) anyhow?
I'm done with this thread, I tried to think of a way to fix the broken economy system of Armageddon, but this gave me a bigger headache than when I tried to think about what was before there ever was anything in the Universe.
Good luck.
I can't believe I just spent the last ... I don't know catching myself up on this thread.
In some cases the GDB is an amazing tool like when everyone is thinking of realistic changes, or solutions.
Other times I see a bunch of overly critical people who don't even play anymore. Not helping, but just shooting down everyone elses ideas.
I wonder why the Byn works so well even during slumps when the leaders are not overworking themselves like you expect them to do?
I always thought of the Byn as a merchant house that deals bodies for jobs, instead of wares like the Merchant houses. I could just be oober noob, but does the Byn have problems with indie mercenaries taking it all for themselves?
I personally like watching virtual economies and markets go crazy. I don't know what it is but it feels real I suppose.
What if indies do under sell and crash the merchant house? Or the Merchant house slaughters indies by the thousands? As long as it follows ICly it's cool in my mind.
In this case I would like to take away the houses monopolies and coded invulnerability and just play it out. If a house has a lame leader and everyone quits cool. The house crashes just like it would IRL. I guess I may not be accounting for the vNPC that would loyally stick with the house and keep it alive.
[/my two cents]
Quote from: Lizzie on December 01, 2008, 09:16:09 PM
I also feel that shops that sell only certain types of things, shouldn't buy other types of things. Like, a shop that sells only weapons and armor, should not buy silk.
This should already be the case. If there are shopkeepers that do not follow this precept, please 'bug' them in game.
Unfortunately I can't bug it because I"m nowhere near it. It's been like that for over a year and it has been brought to the staff's attention in the past. I'll send an e-mail.