I've revamped the way that listen and scan work to work more like watch and guard, and in turn, borrowed some from listen and scan for watch and guard. There is also now a cost associated with maintaining all of these actions.
Listen and scan have been changed so you don't get lagged for doing 'status' or 'off', just when you turn it on. Listen now works more like watch, scan and guard, where you don't just automatically overhear everything said. Now it uses a skill check, modified by the difficulty of the task at hand.
One major change here is I'm now letting everyone listen, even if they don't have the skill, but they will have little to no chance of overhearing anything without a really high wisdom or lots of luck.
I've reversed the changes to scan and listen so that they no longer break on fighting, instead making it more like guard where it just won't work if you're fighting. When you stop fighting it will still be active, so you don't have to turn it back on. This is done since listen/scan are now just toggle commands like watch to turn the affect on/off. Watching and fighting was not changes with this code change.
Probably the biggest gameplay change for these skills is that they now all apply a drain to your maximum stun while in use (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch). Note that these will stay on even while fighting for scan/listen/guard, so be thoughtful about leaving these on during combat.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 01, 2008, 08:26:24 PM
Probably the biggest gameplay change for these skills is that they now all apply a drain to your maximum stun while in use (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch). Note that these will stay on even while fighting for scan/listen/guard, so be thoughtful about leaving these on during combat.
I severely disagree with this part.
I should not have to knock my current character's stun down to a cap of 60 or 65 (which is what it would be) to use some of the only skills that give her guild an advantage over other guilds, Morg.
Edit: to make the tone of this post less negative, I LOVE the rest of the changes. Especially letting -everyone- have a chance to listen, even if it's a hugely low chance.
However, I do not think that certain guilds should be punished even more than they already are for using the skills that were designed to make them competitive versus other guilds or capable of fulfilling their place in the gameworld.
Edit edit again: Can I ask why the changes to stun caps were implemented? I'm seriously not just trying to whine here, but this change is alarming. Considering the frequency with which my character gets knocked unconscious or almost unconscious with a stun cap that's 30 points higher, I would consider it darn near unplayable if her cap was made even lower just so she could use some of her guild's primary useful skills.
Quote from: Fathi on November 01, 2008, 08:31:05 PM
Edit edit again: Can I ask why the changes to stun caps were implemented? I'm seriously not just trying to whine here, but this change is alarming and considering the frequency with which my character gets knocked unconscious or almost unconscious with a stun cap that's 30 points higher, I would consider it darn near unplayable if her cap was made even lower just so she could use some of her guild's primary useful skills.
Because like using the Way, using these skills constitutes a distraction. So you might as well use the same penalty with these skills now that the delay has been taken.
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 01, 2008, 08:52:56 PM
Quote from: Fathi on November 01, 2008, 08:31:05 PM
Edit edit again: Can I ask why the changes to stun caps were implemented? I'm seriously not just trying to whine here, but this change is alarming and considering the frequency with which my character gets knocked unconscious or almost unconscious with a stun cap that's 30 points higher, I would consider it darn near unplayable if her cap was made even lower just so she could use some of her guild's primary useful skills.
Because like using the Way, using these skills constitutes a distraction. So you might as well use the same penalty with these skills now that the delay has been taken.
I don't think a change to somebody's stun cap is a fair coded representation of being distracted.
Basically, I don't see how concentrating on being more perceptive and aware of one's surroundings somehow makes one more more susceptible to getting KOed.
Dalmeth's response covers our reasoning fairly well. Using all of these abilities require a constant mental attention, and so the stun drain is the best way to represent this.
I think that this is a good example of a situation where I agree with the reasoning behind it but not how it was implemented.
All I'm saying is that I believe this is an iffy decision from a playability standpoint and I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.
You begin watching the area carefully.
You notice something rustling in the bushes.
Something springs out at you, and you see it springing out at you, because you're being watchful!
You get knocked out in one punch by beastie because you were being too cautious.
Quote from: Fathi on November 01, 2008, 09:14:46 PM
All I'm saying is that I believe this is an iffy decision from a playability standpoint and I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.
I think the penalties are a little too steep, but either way, we're going to have to use these abilities more sparingly than what we have come to know and love. I honestly like the fact I'm going to have to drop scan and listen if I want to use the Way while I'm riding.
Quote from: Is Friday on November 01, 2008, 09:19:32 PM
You begin watching the area carefully.
You notice something rustling in the bushes.
Something springs out at you, and you see it springing out at you, because you're being watchful!
You get knocked out in one punch by beastie because you were being too cautious.
Them's the breaks. Don't you know that searching makes you vulnerable?
Now if we could watch something hidden with a greater chance of success, I'd be tickled pink. Better yet if I could do this from a distance.
Quote from: Fathi on November 01, 2008, 09:14:46 PM
I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.
Such as?
I'm not entirely convinced that this update will cause a slew of one-shot-KO's. I am curious, though, if the stun penalty is removed in combat since the skill isn't effective in combat. If so, then combat means that my PC starts at a stun disadvantage but if he's skilled enough can regenerate back to his full potential while focussing his attention on the fight.
Quote from: Space Ace on November 01, 2008, 09:33:32 PM
Quote from: Fathi on November 01, 2008, 09:14:46 PM
I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.
Such as?
Slower regen of stun points.
Penalties to certain skills, especially skills that requre a lot of mental rather than physical concentration (contact, barrier, complex crafts).
Penalties to listen and scan when your character is not at their most alert, though I think this might already be in place.
A chance to have listen and scan broken by certain events that startle or surprise your character.
Having listen and scan success/fail depend on your enivronment and the amount of distractions in the room.
I just disagree with stun points being the best medium with which to express distraction. Stun points, as they function codedly, seem to be more a measurement of consciousness and mental endurance as far as using psychic powers and sustaining head injuries--it does not make much sense to me to use them as a way to express being distracted when they serve all these other functions.
Basically what it boils down to is I fail to see why concentrating on being more observant of your surroundings should make your character more susceptible to head injuries and being knocked unconscious. It seems like a poorly-chosen correlation of code entities.
I really like STUN being taken into affect in more than just PSIONICs.
two thumbs up!
This doesn't look right - -10 for guard, scan, and listen = -30 stun points. There are people who only -have- 80 stun points - if they have barrier up too, that means -40 or worse. And that isn't even when you're in combat. That means your *maximum* stun points would be set to only 40, if you already have sucky stun to begin with.
A well trained guard is -trained- to do these things well. Why should they get -any- penalty at all for it? I can understand if it started out that way, and you could "train" it off so that eventually you don't get a penalty. But I can't see any logic, or any playability at all, or any point, in taking off 10 stun points for each of these things, -especially- when it's common to use all of them simutaneously. It's like you're punishing people who have a skill, for having a skill.
Just curious, does the stun point cost apply to NPC guards as well?
Quote from: Solifugid on November 01, 2008, 10:38:30 PM
Just curious, does the stun point cost apply to NPC guards as well?
yes
Morgenes,
The changes are awesome. The stun costs hurt. Would you consider making the costs scalable, so that at the upper ranges of skill, they cost less? Perhaps (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch) at beginning levels, which I'll assume are 1-5 for non-subguild skills, could become (-5 for guard, scan, and listen and -1 for watch) at the upper tiers of ability.
I think this would help a great deal with the reality of the situation, and would indicate that the better you become, the less intentional attention you pay and the more it becomes second nature.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 01, 2008, 11:18:21 PM
Morgenes,
The changes are awesome. The stun costs hurt. Would you consider making the costs scalable, so that at the upper ranges of skill, they cost less? Perhaps (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch) at beginning levels, which I'll assume are 1-5 for non-subguild skills, could become (-5 for guard, scan, and listen and -1 for watch) at the upper tiers of ability.
I think this would help a great deal with the reality of the situation, and would indicate that the better you become, the less intentional attention you pay and the more it becomes second nature.
That's certainly a possibility and it makes sense. I briefly contemplated something like that when I started this, but discarded it to get this done.
Cool beans. I dig the direction you are going, without question. I do want to just make a tiny observation, though.
Warriors have been changed quite a bit with the various changes you have been making recently. In fact, probably all combat classes have been changed a lot, and basically had a good deal more complication stacked on them. And I'm not really saying this is bad, yet.
But I think it might be a good idea to even out a few things across all classes. Some classes never worry about armor, and have various skills and spells to accomplish what mundanes are now having to spend chunks of stamina and stun to do. Maybe this is what you are intending, to make karma classes even more scary and deadly in combat. Maybe it's not.
But it's something that you should know, if you don't already. Don't get me wrong. I am one of the most adamant about making things realistic, and all of these recent changes have been along that line, and it's awesome as hell. I probably suggested stamina drain for combat skills before anybody else even thought about it. I just don't want so many things to stack up on mundanes that we can't face challenges, not only PC wise, but the challenges you Staff like to throw at us in RPTs and storylines that deal with physical conflict.
While we are on the topic, sneaking and hiding should probably evolve with these changes as well, and also do stun degradation, hmm?
Hrm, it also occurs to me that fixing bandage to be more realistic would be good too. Instead of the monster fail, just failing to do anything but stop the bleeding would be a nice change. And it would barely involve any code work. Just a message change, and a number change, I believe.
Appreciate the change of listen to be a toggle.
The idea that a person who's paying attention to his surroundings is easier to sap is a teeny bit strange to me.
Perhaps the effort to maintain listen/scan/guard/watch (and perhaps sneak/hide as well) could be modeled as a steady drain to MV, with NPCs excluded so that there's no worry about having to figure out how make NPC guards rest up. Tavern-sitting with listen on might not be all that relaxing, so it could make sense if the MV regen from sitting is canceled out with the MV drain from easedroping.
Quote from: Fathi on November 01, 2008, 09:57:30 PM
Quote from: Space Ace on November 01, 2008, 09:33:32 PM
Quote from: Fathi on November 01, 2008, 09:14:46 PM
I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.
Such as?
Slower regen of stun points.
Penalties to certain skills, especially skills that requre a lot of mental rather than physical concentration (contact, barrier, complex crafts).
Penalties to listen and scan when your character is not at their most alert, though I think this might already be in place.
A chance to have listen and scan broken by certain events that startle or surprise your character.
Having listen and scan success/fail depend on your enivronment and the amount of distractions in the room.
I just disagree with stun points being the best medium with which to express distraction. Stun points, as they function codedly, seem to be more a measurement of consciousness and mental endurance as far as using psychic powers and sustaining head injuries--it does not make much sense to me to use them as a way to express being distracted when they serve all these other functions.
Basically what it boils down to is I fail to see why concentrating on being more observant of your surroundings should make your character more susceptible to head injuries and being knocked unconscious. It seems like a poorly-chosen correlation of code entities.
I am with Fathi on this one, and I have been mentioning something like this in the last thread (Lowering the success the of scan and listen to some degree during combat). All the proposed ideas seem interesting and in balance with the with the game.
So, since Guard/Scan/listen is now a toggle, and since they don't work while fighting, the stun penalties also stop (meaning my stun will begin to go back up not being affected by the skill in use) while fighting right? Just checking?
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 02, 2008, 12:34:46 AM
So, since Guard/Scan/listen is now a toggle, and since they don't work while fighting, the stun penalties also stop (meaning my stun will begin to go back up not being affected by the skill in use) while fighting right? Just checking?
I believe that Space Ace suggested that earlier, that's not the way it's coded today.
I find the idea of being at -20 stun just for having scan and listen up to be well...incredibly unnecessary. With respect, neither do I find Dalmeth's explanation that it is because doing such is 'distracting' to be remotely sufficient.
I can see how contacting someone or having a barrier up can be mentally exhausting. But scan and listen is supposed to represent being more wary and more alert, and those that get these skills are basically already weak enough as it is. Indeed, being alert is supposed to be a boon, not a liability. So all it really does is help warriors with bludgeoning weapons who don't scan or listen anyways.
I do like the rest of the changes. But only because it's better that they're being suppressed rather than completely dropped and having to be put back on. If I were being entirely honest, I'd rather everything stayed as it was a week ago. But that's neither here nor there, so given that staff has decided to change it, I'm reasonably okay with the change. However, I can't think of any reason to include a cumulative -20 to -30 stun penalty. And even if it were necessary, is too high, and I do not find the reasoning behind implementing it to be in the least compelling, which troubles me further.
I hate to say it, but it seems to me that ever since the barrier change going through early, there's been a certain 'impetuous' feel to the changes being made. And I think this -stun penalty is something that needs to be re-examined, or at least better justified.
Perhaps it would have been better to leave it the way it was, until a more nuanced way of penalizing it (if it must be penalized) can be coded up. A -20 to -30 stun is just too devastating, for whats supposed to be skills designed to keep you alive.
The -10 penalty does seem a bit severe to me I admit, though I do like the direction the coded changes moved in.
To me it always felt like using the way should be vastly more distracting/draining on someone than any mundane ability would be, so if possible, I think it would be a better idea to scale that -10 penalty per skill being used, down to like -5, or -3 or something.
I may be off base, but I think everyone could swallow that with a lot less of an issue.
One would think that these skills would drain stam, rather than stun.
A "distraction", or paying close attention to the world around you, I think, wouldn't necessarily soak up all of your precious consciousness juice, would it?
What if your character is concentrating -reaaaaly- hard on something... By the logic of listen/scan = -stun, then would it be possible for a character to knock himself out from just thinking really hard?
Well, to be completely in line with the current situation (where it's taking away from your max, not draining it), I have to say no ... he won't knock himself out by thinking really hard.
However, if he thinks hard enough, a slight breeze against the temple could be all it takes to push him over the edge.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 02, 2008, 02:30:56 AM
One would think that these skills would drain stam, rather than stun.
A "distraction", or paying close attention to the world around you, I think, wouldn't necessarily soak up all of your precious consciousness juice, would it?
What if your character is concentrating -reaaaaly- hard on something... By the logic of listen/scan = -stun, then would it be possible for a character to knock himself out from just thinking really hard?
I always thought it was clear that stun was a measure of your 'mental' reserve. Hence its utility in maintaining consciousness, or with psionics. So seeing it bleed over into something like, listening, scanning or guarding someone, was doubly surprising.
I'm usually willing to go along with code changes, but this one does indeed suck Muk Utep's Hairy Impotent Balls. Adding a stun cap to Scan, Listen and Guard makes little sense especially with such high numbers.
Does it really make sense that just because I guard someone it is easier to knock me out? Or should I not guard someone and just use rescue so that if my charge is attacked I am at fighting strength to defend them?
Are you going to add a stun cap to crafting? Because that requires one to focus thier concentration on what they are trying to create.
Are you going to add a stun cap to haggling? Because that requires one to focus their concentration on what they are doing to get the best price for their wares.
Having just had to guard someone on a trip through the desert, I lost 30 stun following orders to scan, listen and guard. This really doesn't make sense to me.
Especially concerning rangers, and other perception heavy guilds, this is not something that is conducive to play. Rangers are supposed to be more perceptive because they suck at combat already, so who had the idea to make them suck more so they can do the things that they are supposed to do? If you want this to feel realistic then lower the cap to stun (5 should be ample) or change the cap to Stamina. I can see rangers and other perception based guilds, moving more cautiously when they are intently observing the area.
As it stands it doesn't feel like a code change to make things work 'as expected' but rather it feels like a huge nerf because someone got annoyed that players were bitching about the changes made to another skill. I'm sure this is not the case, but that is what it feels like.
We appreciate the work you're continuing to do on the 1.Arm codebase, Morg. *elbows people*
I could see justification for spreading the guard and scan penalties between stun and movement, rather than stun alone. Doing those while moving along would seem to require a little more effort-- how do you guard someone while moving down a crowded street, say?
Yes, I do appreciate that Morgenes is still working on the Arm.1 codebase.
No, I do not agree that changing Stun/Listen/Guard with a reduction to survivability because people were bitching that they stopped working when engaged in melee combat was a good thing.
Could I be happy with the changes if they were not so harsh, or capped things that were more belivable, yes. Yes I could.
Quote from: Bushranger on November 02, 2008, 12:09:54 PM
Yes, I do appreciate
No, I do not agree
Could I be happy
YOU WERE VEHEMENT, MAN! YOU WERE VEHEMENT! :D
But yeah, the cumulative stun loss potential scares me a little, too. I mean, just having psionic skills active in a dangerous area scared me before.
My understanding was that this was a compromise, rather than having them removed entirely by combat.
With that in mind... I don't see how it's the end of the world. Nobody is forcing you to have every skill toggled on all the time.
Either way they could use a bit of touching up. I've filed two bugs related to them already.
I was perfectly happy not having them up during combat.
The problem is, for rangers who are supposed to be perceptive when out hunting, this makes doing that a lot more dangerous. Toggling it off before combat is fine, but the lowered stun is still there until it slowly goes back up and there isn't always time to wait before what you just saw by being perceptive is upon you.
I just really disagree with penalizing a guilds important skills because there was a lot of bitching about it not working during combat. Having it turn off during melee was perfectly fine.
Eh ... I would like having them go off for combat and come back on automatically, but not cap stun at all ... I think that would have been a fair trade between the people who wanted them (along with everything else under the sun) to go off when melee combat occured because "It's life and death and you can't think of anything else except the person you're fighting no matter what!!!!" (-It's possible those folks have never actually been in melee combat before.) and the people who were of the opinion that "If you're well trained you can have mortal combat while scanning all possible areas for all possible threats at all possible times in all possible situations!!!!" (-Perhaps even more likely that those people haven't ever been in actual combat.).
To me it feels like balance was a little to the left ... now it's gone a bit to the right, but I was hoping for the middle.
But all that aside, I'm really happy that the Arm.1 code is still being worked on, and that Morgenes is cranking out all these changes in response to player feedback.
I am too hungover for a long eloquent response, but max stun penalties for scan, listen, and guard are not something I agree with at all. I was coming around to the changes for combat guilds who are fighting, but playability concerns and my hatred for spam were behind the desire to see it adjusted so that the abilities were only dampened during combat. I am pleased and grateful that those changes were made. I can't fathom why it was additionally necessary to penalize stun. With all due respect, it feels like a "gee whiz" idea that was put through without much consideration as to how it would make life more difficult for mundane combat characters, just like the original changes to scan/listen were put through without any testing first - and we found out that it was a less than ideal fix.
Can we put the brakes on and start considering a) showing some love for mundane combat characters instead of constantly making life harder and more dangerous for them, b) how the changes might affect playability for those who run them?
I don't want to see Ranger D Dead get <insert spell here> off a cliff and get knocked out only because they were scanning and listening for <insert mage here>, while mister Warrior B Bad gets banged up but stays awake, even though he was less alert to the dangers inherent.
Seriously, must every change to mundane characters further gimp their defenses against a mage?
I'd be more fond of a constant drain that worked essentially like the way, in that the more skilled you are at "watching", the less it'd effect you--but even at higher levels, you're still losing a point or two every once and a while--but with no lowered stun cap.
Quote from: Is Friday on November 02, 2008, 01:23:55 PM
I'd be more fond of a constant drain that worked essentially like the way, in that the more skilled you are at "watching", the less it'd effect you--but even at higher levels, you're still losing a point or two every once and a while--but with no lowered stun cap.
In my opinion, that's worse because you can knock yourself out without even noticing.
Looking at it, now, I'm okay with the changes. It sucks but makes sense.
Don't wanna get knocked out? GET BETTER! :P
People keep trying to justify things by saying: Get better.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've only branched twice in over ten years of playing this game. Once from a spell caster that I spam cast for awhile in the tempe and felt really twinky about doing.
Am I playing things wrong by not spam hunting everything I come across, and spamming skills to try and get better?
Quote from: Bushranger on November 02, 2008, 03:21:00 PM
People keep trying to justify things by saying: Get better.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've only branched twice in over ten years of playing this game. Once from a spell caster that I spam cast for awhile in the tempe and felt really twinky about doing.
Am I playing things wrong by not spam hunting everything I come across, and spamming skills to try and get better?
Sometimes I feel that there is an entire sub-game to this game that everybody knows about except me.
I like the change, but think the penalty should be lowered for characters with a higher level of skill.
Get better at what? Morgenes said there's a -10 penalty to max stun for certain things. He didn't say "it's dependent on whether or not you're any good at it, or if you get better." It's -10, per skill, period. No matter how good you are with listen or scan, no matter whether or not you're a ranger with uber listen and scan, you will get -10 on EACH, when it's running.
Getting better won't change this. After having experienced this change first hand with a character who -should- be perfectly capable of chewing gum and walking while noticing something lurking close and overhearing my two closest (physically) buddies whispering about the snot hanging off my nose, all at the same time, my opinion hasn't has only changed for the worse. I still think this stun cap is just wrong, on many levels. I don't feel it is appropriate under any circumstance, not even if it gets "better" after awhile - which it presently doesn't.
Also, it seems to me like the opportunity for actually improving one's scan skill is significantly nerfed with these changes. Now, with scan being toggleable, apparently it can't fail to be turned on. Thus the only way to improve is to fail to see hidden things around oneself. For city-based characters, this may or may not be easy to do...whereas with listen being purely toggleable and non-failable to turn on, everyone CAN tavern-sit and skill it up. Likewise there tend to be plenty of opportunities to practice watch.
And I do not agree with the stun lowering being -10 per skill. That adds up to about 30% of stun capacity for a typical mundane combat type. Way, way, way too much, Morg.
QuoteCan we put the brakes on and start considering a) showing some love for mundane combat characters instead of constantly making life harder and more dangerous for them, b) how the changes might affect playability for those who run them?
This. Where has the love been since the reel and defence changes?
Adding all of these features to the game is nice except that they keep making the game progressivly more difficult to play.
It is still much much easier to play a warrior in the wilderness than it is to play a ranger.
Also, I think that with these skills affecting stun, they should be listed under the "stat" command thusly:
You are affected by:
Psionic Barrier, Listen, Scan
Quote from: Lizzie on November 02, 2008, 03:53:31 PM
It's -10, per skill, period.
Make it -10*(1 - pctSkill), with a 3-4 point slow-moving random variation to limit percentage-sniffing.
Also, you should be able to do "scan status" while not standing, which is now not possible.
I like that Morg is working on the game.
I agree with anybody, Fathi ETC who says that decreased stun cap is not the right way to go about this.
I think the reduced stun regen for scan/listen is the better way to go and some sort of hit to stam for watch/guard.
I would like to start by saying that I think these things should affect stamina. Not stun. <--This seems to make more sense.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 02, 2008, 11:55:29 AM
We appreciate the work you're continuing to do on the 1.Arm codebase, Morg. *elbows people*
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. Thank you Morg for not writing this game off as done, we still enjoy it very much.
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 02, 2008, 01:12:56 PM
Can we put the brakes on and start considering a) showing some love for mundane combat characters instead of constantly making life harder and more dangerous for them, b) how the changes might affect playability for those who run them?
Seriously, must every change to mundane characters further gimp their defenses against a mage?
This makes a hella lotta sense.
Quote from: staggerlee on November 02, 2008, 12:27:31 PM
My understanding was that this was a compromise, rather than having them removed entirely by combat.
With that in mind... I don't see how it's the end of the world. Nobody is forcing you to have every skill toggled on all the time.
You did not think this out at all. The bolded part is quite often exactly what's happening. And for others, even if not being forced to, these skills are what help them not die because they suck at all forms of combat. And seeing as how these skills stop working during combat how is that a compromise?
Quote from: Bushranger on November 02, 2008, 03:21:00 PM
People keep trying to justify things by saying: Get better.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've only branched twice in over ten years of playing this game. Once from a spell caster that I spam cast for awhile in the tempe and felt really twinky about doing.
Am I playing things wrong by not spam hunting everything I come across, and spamming skills to try and get better?
Yes, apparently we've been doing it wrong. This RP thing is what they tell us dumbass newbs so that we waste or time while everybody else maxes out their skills and make us easier to PK when they get bored. (I know, I know. But it does feel like this sometimes)
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 02, 2008, 11:55:29 AM
We appreciate the work you're continuing to do on the 1.Arm codebase, Morg. *elbows people*
I wanted to repeat htis one so that everyone can keep their priorities in order.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on November 02, 2008, 04:07:05 PM
Also, I think that with these skills affecting stun, they should be listed under the "stat" command thusly:
You are affected by:
Psionic Barrier, Listen, Scan
I think this is absolutely necessary with the new changes. As for the numbers... yea it's pretty rough but it's playable. Perhaps I'm just not in those deadly knock-out situations enough with my last few characters.
Also, you are amazing Morgenes. Truly doing great things with Armageddon and I know that I appreciate your work and the incredible speed of your updates.
Plus the fact that you listen to the playerbase and respond is just amazing.
Brandon
I've always been a big fan of realism in RPG's, and it's one of the things that I've always liked about Arm. The fact that this realism is still being refined is commendable. However, taking a hit to you mental fortitude because you are more attentive to your senses is completely UNrealistic. If I sit in a bar and watch the door while listening to the people talk in the booth next to me, am I really expending any energy? I'll be distracted from other things, surely, but to actually become fatigued, either mentally or physically, is pretty ridiculous. I just don't see how either Stamina or Stun are applicable stats for this function....maybe there should be an Awareness stat that you can tie up in attention based skills....use to many skills and you start missing things happening around you.
That being said, I'll still enjoy playing, despite my current char being one of those "perceptive" types people keep mentioning. But everytime I find myself getting tapped for keeping my eye on that shady elf at the bar, or drifting towards sleepy time when I'm trying to spot that halfling that I KNOW is hiding around, I'll be just a little bit put out.
*plink plink*
Please note, irritated tone of my post aside, my love for all that Morgenes does (and listens to) is unabated.
Stun loss is still not something I agree with. The other changes penalized the appropriate classes plenty.
If the stat lost by using Guard, Scan and Listen were changed from Stun to Stamina then it would help a lot of things out and be more believable.
If you're a hunter out hunting for something like a Jozhal around Allanak, which hides quite a bit and is almost the only thing new to mid experience ranger can hunt, you'll have scan and listen up to try and find it. You might also be guarding your friend. This means you loose 20-30 stun, and that Jozhal just found it easier to kill your character because you can't toggle off scan before initiating combat with it (or you would loose sight of it and not be able to hunt) and that 10-20 stun reduction is still gone from the beginning of combat after you now toggle it off after entering the melee.
If this was changed to Stamina loss, you couldn't walk as far while you were hunting because you're moving slower and looking over more of your surroundings while hunting, but would not enter combat with 1/4 to 1/3 of your stun missing. I find this situation realistic for a hunter.
Similar for a guard, or a city dweller, who is using these skills to watch out for elven pickpockets. Moving through the streets would be slower as you pay more attention to your surroundings and watch everything. It shouldn't make you easier to knock out and potentially kill.
If you're sitting in a bar trying to overhear the next tables conversation and watch out for elven pickpockets, the reduction in Stamina isn't going to mean much because you're inside and not going anywhere, and this agrees with being able to watch everything in one area more easily while you're stationary.
--That or return it to how it was coded a few days ago. Scan, Listen and Watch should drop when engaged in melee combat, and that was a great addition to the code. If you feel like you character is an uber scanning, uber listening type person it is easy enough to turn them back on after the melee combat has ended.
A stamina penalty is ridiculous. The classes that rely on the relevant skills need that stamina a lot more than the classes that don't. It gives them the flexibility to respond to situations where they can't get their way out through brute force, which is a lot of different situations. I know what people want. It's to be able to ride around on a mount and maintain the ability to respond to whatever occurs. Let me tell you, riding around on a mount is the worst combat position for these classes. Period. The story is over. If you want that sort of freedom to take on any situation, be a warrior. The character who gets blown off a cliff and knocked out hasn't figured out that you can stop your fall.
As for the argument that actively listening and scanning doesn't strain your concentration, that's fairly ridiculous, too. You might be able to watch a doorway for five minutes, but do it for hours. Follow someone at a distance while they move through a busy street. You might be able to pick up on every detail at first, but sooner or later, you start getting sloppy. This is called tired. Yes, it is an exertion, believe it or not, and that's what stun is, a measure of how mentally, "fresh," you are.
Now I do think the penalties are a little severe. I would suggest more like seven or eight for scan and a little less for listen. Lessening the penalty for listen doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there's the fact it's a little too broad. I'd be all for two grades of listen, one that lets you know something is happening in a different room and another that lets you hear specific words. In terms of the survival of the classes that use it, listen is largely most useful in detecting other presences nearby, so I'd like it to remain functional in that regard without too much penalty. Otherwise, you shouldn't be able to hear everything said in perfect clarity as if it was the birthright of your class.
Morg,
Let me offer a suggestion. Instead of applying penalties to stun, stamina, or any other numerical stat, why not simply slow down the combatant just a bit, much the way weight does.
Using hypothetical numbers, let's say that a fighter with no bonuses or penalties fights at a speed of 1. Let's say that at heavy but manageable encumbrance, he fights at a speed of .6. With scan on, provided that the fighter has no penalties, he fights at a speed of .9. With scan and listen on, he fights at a speed of .8, and so on and so forth. Now these numbers can and probably should vary a bit more than that, but you should understand the concept I am presenting. Furthermore, I'd suggest that scan and listen suffer a penalty, but not go on hiatus while you are fighting.
The slowing of the fighter represents that he is using attention span to maintain his scanning and listen. It's putting him at a disadvantage without reducing critical stats that should probably not be affected the way that they are. IRL, rather than being easier to knock out when you are paying attention, you tend to lag a bit in your responses, particularly when you are looking for something.
What 7DV said.
Morg,
Ratios might be hard to code into such a formula as the one that governs penalties while fighting. That never occurred to me. What might be simpler, and perhaps even more realistic than slowing down the fighter, is applying a -1 to all skills that stacks with each mode of attention the PC engaging in.
These numbers, -10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch regarding stun, would become these numbers, -2 for guard, scan, and listen and -1 for watch, regarding all skills. This does mean that if you are guarding, scanning, and listening, you will suffer -6 to both these skills and every other skill you use during this period.
.....
What was so wrong with the way things were?
Honest question.
Nothing was wrong with it, but we seem to be headed down the road of realistic code additions and modifications. If we are, the important things is to get them right. I have no problem with the concept, it's the implementation that bothers me and just about everyone else. I am simply presenting concepts for penalties using other methods which might be more practical.
Actually, I'm sort of okay with the idea of *incremental* difficulty..but skill-based difficulty, not stat-based. An example:
If you have listen running by itself, you have the ability to listen at whatever your max skill is. If you add scan, you will lose some of your maximum ability to use listen, plus your ability to see hidden things won't be -as good- as if you were -only- scanning. Then when you add guard to the mix, you'll be able to guard, but not nearly as well as if you were ONLY guarding, and not listening -and- scanning at the same time. And your listen and scan skills will be less than if they were being used by themselves, as well.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 02, 2008, 08:19:43 PM
If you have listen running by itself, you have the ability to listen at whatever your max skill is. If you add scan, you will lose some of your maximum ability to use listen, plus your ability to see hidden things won't be -as good- as if you were -only- scanning. Then when you add guard to the mix, you'll be able to guard, but not nearly as well as if you were ONLY guarding, and not listening -and- scanning at the same time. And your listen and scan skills will be less than if they were being used by themselves, as well.
This is the best idea yet.
Guard needs to be separated from the scan/listen changes.
Shouldn't watching somebody make it easier to guard against them and less likely to get KTFO by them?
Quote from: Lizzie on November 02, 2008, 08:19:43 PM
Actually, I'm sort of okay with the idea of *incremental* difficulty..but skill-based difficulty, not stat-based. An example:
If you have listen running by itself, you have the ability to listen at whatever your max skill is. If you add scan, you will lose some of your maximum ability to use listen, plus your ability to see hidden things won't be -as good- as if you were -only- scanning. Then when you add guard to the mix, you'll be able to guard, but not nearly as well as if you were ONLY guarding, and not listening -and- scanning at the same time. And your listen and scan skills will be less than if they were being used by themselves, as well.
I agree that this is probably the best suggestion yet, as for realism. The only caveat I see is, if you are watching a target, you should be more capable of listening to that one target, since you are looking at, potentially, their mouth and gesticulations. Otherwise, kudos to Lizzie's sense of realism. ;)
Based on the feedback here I have decided to implement a solution suggested by you.
Next reboot, your skill will factor into the amount of stun drain taken while using these abilities. This reflects the idea that as you get better at them it becomes more like second nature and you can do it without as much concentration.
I know it's still not the most popular idea, but we feel this makes these abilities have a 'cost' associated with them. We will continue to investigate how this works out and listen to your feedback on how this actually plays out. Thanks for your encouragement and support and for hanging in there as we continue to tweak Armageddon.
Thank you for not feeling angry while reading our replies. We all dig you, Morg, and we are so FUCKING HAPPY you are working on 1.0. We know why, so that you can test ideas for the next incarnation, but it is awesome to see regardless. Thanks for listening, and thanks for adjusting and responding and caring. Yeh, we are opinionated and irritable and sceptically of everything, but under it all, we are all freaking happy to see you presenting change and showing interest in things.
You are the wyn.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 02, 2008, 09:33:14 PM
Based on the feedback here I have decided to implement a solution suggested by you.
Next reboot, your skill will factor into the amount of stun drain taken while using these abilities. This reflects the idea that as you get better at them it becomes more like second nature and you can do it without as much concentration.
I know it's still not the most popular idea, but we feel this makes these abilities have a 'cost' associated with them. We will continue to investigate how this works out and listen to your feedback on how this actually plays out. Thanks for your encouragement and support and for hanging in there as we continue to tweak Armageddon.
Thank you for being so receptive to feedback, Morgenes. It is more appreciated than you realize.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 02, 2008, 09:58:44 PM
Thank you for being so receptive to feedback, Morgenes. It is more appreciated than you realize.
Hear Hear!
I person can loathe a change, while loving the changer. Thanks for letting us vent, and for considering our ideas and suggestions! I'll chime in (as usual) after I've experienced "perception changes v6.10).
Thanks for the attention to detail and for the new tweaks. Can't wait to see the updated version.
Morg ... you rock socks! (along with Belenos)
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 02, 2008, 01:03:31 AM
So all it really does is help warriors with bludgeoning weapons who don't scan or listen anyways.
Having played warriors who use bludgeoning weapons and don't scan and listen, I can't help but agree.
You suckers are fucked.
In all honesty, I am completely down with these changes. I do agree with the modification, that it is based on skill and the penalties are in a grey-scale.
I also believe Fathi has better ideas as to how to penalize over-aware, listening-too-hard, trying to find sneaky people warriors/rangers/assholes.
Making it harder to accomplish something, such as spotting a sneaky halfling flanking you while you're fighting his friend, or hearing a branch break while fighting for your life, makes much more sense than having a blanket 'loss of stun' that is arbitrary, and not applicable to every situation, while also loosely making playability of characters with 'Average' endurance completely fucked.
Morgenes -- You've got great ideas, and your changes are both welcomed and well-recieved, as far as I am concerned.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 02, 2008, 09:33:14 PM
Next reboot, your skill will factor into the amount of stun drain taken while using these abilities. This reflects the idea that as you get better at them it becomes more like second nature and you can do it without as much concentration.
This is welcome news. As always I'm impressed by the speed and attention that is paid with working on the Armageddon code.
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 02, 2008, 08:10:39 PM
.....
What was so wrong with the way things were?
Honest question.
Nothing wrong, necessarily. As noted by someone, somewhere, I think maybe in this thread... you guys get to experience some of the concepts we're trying out for Arm2 in Arm1. It gives us a chance to do some testing and balancing before we ever get to the new game.
One of the things we're trying to do better is consistency of design. Skills which serve similar purposes should have similar tradeoffs, similar costs, similar methods of performing skill checks, and similar ways of being used. Another concept we want to work into the game is the tradeoff - nothing is free. The principle applies to magicker, mundane, and psionicist alike - we want people to have to sort through the pros and cons of the actions they take, rather than just stacking on everything they can get their hands on and turning into Voltron.
So, yeah, we're still sorting through exactly what all of the consequences are, which is why we're paying attention to feedback, watching how things play out in game, and making all of these tweaks. Ultimately, this will help us design the game better.
Fuckin' Voltrons.
I agree with the stun penalty for these skills, however, the current costs (-10 for scan, then another -10 for listen) are much too steep.
If my uber-assassin is paying so much attention to his surroundings, through both active scan and active listen, lets say both are maxxed, how is it someone who wants to sap me or hit me with a bludgeoning weapon to my face has a 20 stun advantage?
Perhaps having listen and scan on should affect my chances of avoiding said sap or initial attack with a dodge?
Or perhaps the stun penalty is simply too high. Add that to having my barrier up all the time and suddenly I'm feeling pretty darn vulnerable! A kank fly could knock me out ;)
KIA
There definitely should not be a situation where we are /more/ easily knocked out and taken captive based on being wary or alert.
Quote from: KIA on November 04, 2008, 04:17:01 AM
If my uber-assassin is paying so much attention to his surroundings, through both active scan and active listen, lets say both are maxxed, how is it someone who wants to sap me or hit me with a bludgeoning weapon to my face has a 20 stun advantage?
Since the reboot yesterday I think skill in the ability is taken into account for how much stun you'll lose so you're skilled assassin won't be facing a 20 stun penalty for having scan and listen active.
Quote from: Boggis on November 04, 2008, 07:21:13 AM
Quote from: KIA on November 04, 2008, 04:17:01 AM
If my uber-assassin is paying so much attention to his surroundings, through both active scan and active listen, lets say both are maxxed, how is it someone who wants to sap me or hit me with a bludgeoning weapon to my face has a 20 stun advantage?
Since the reboot yesterday I think skill in the ability is taken into account for how much stun you'll lose so you're skilled assassin won't be facing a 20 stun penalty for having scan and listen active.
Its not being taken into account yet for scan and listen.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 04, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
Quote from: Boggis on November 04, 2008, 07:21:13 AM
Quote from: KIA on November 04, 2008, 04:17:01 AM
If my uber-assassin is paying so much attention to his surroundings, through both active scan and active listen, lets say both are maxxed, how is it someone who wants to sap me or hit me with a bludgeoning weapon to my face has a 20 stun advantage?
Since the reboot yesterday I think skill in the ability is taken into account for how much stun you'll lose so you're skilled assassin won't be facing a 20 stun penalty for having scan and listen active.
Its not being taken into account yet for scan and listen.
We rebooted yesterday to get that change in. If you are an established (not a newbie) character, and you know you're not at base-levels of use of the skill and are still seeing 10 points per listen/scan/guard, email me your account and character name and I will investigate.
On a side note, we rebooted this morning to get in some bug fixes that were noted over the last few days. Namely, you can now turn off scan while resting (but still have to be standing to turn it on). I've also changed it so that if you stop standing, scan turns off. Going to sleep will also stop guard/watch/listen.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 04, 2008, 09:19:20 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 04, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
Quote from: Boggis on November 04, 2008, 07:21:13 AM
Quote from: KIA on November 04, 2008, 04:17:01 AM
If my uber-assassin is paying so much attention to his surroundings, through both active scan and active listen, lets say both are maxxed, how is it someone who wants to sap me or hit me with a bludgeoning weapon to my face has a 20 stun advantage?
Since the reboot yesterday I think skill in the ability is taken into account for how much stun you'll lose so you're skilled assassin won't be facing a 20 stun penalty for having scan and listen active.
Its not being taken into account yet for scan and listen.
We rebooted yesterday to get that change in. If you are an established (not a newbie) character, and you know you're not at base-levels of use of the skill and are still seeing 10 points per listen/scan/guard, email me your account and character name and I will investigate.
On a side note, we rebooted this morning to get in some bug fixes that were noted over the last few days. Namely, you can now turn off scan while resting (but still have to be standing to turn it on). I've also changed it so that if you stop standing, scan turns off. Going to sleep will also stop guard/watch/listen.
It's only since this morning's reboot that scan and listen has been working as intended for me.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 04, 2008, 09:33:57 AM
It's only since this morning's reboot that scan and listen has been working as intended for me.
My apologies, I thought it went in yesterday.
Overall I'm very impressed with the changes I'm seeing. I would say I disagree with the stun drain, but factoring in skill to said skills wins my vote.
Thanks to Morgenes and the other coders. You're awesome.
I still strongly disagree with stun drain, but this is better than before. Thanks.
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 04, 2008, 06:10:08 PM
I still strongly disagree with stun drain, but this is better than before. Thanks.
Well yeah. It's a lot better actually. Skill is even more important now - that's a good thing.
I noticed a -big- difference in the -10 stun cap versus how it applies to my skill now. It also reflects skill improvement, so you'll notice yourself getting better in other ways. That's cool.
I really -really- wish scan didn't drop just because you sit down. I think this is opening up a whole new kind of "twinkery" that isn't really twinkery at all....people simply running their listen skill, and -not- sitting, when they're in social settings.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 04, 2008, 07:09:00 PM
I really -really- wish scan didn't drop just because you sit down. I think this is opening up a whole new kind of "twinkery" that isn't really twinkery at all....people simply running their listen skill, and -not- sitting, when they're in social settings.
I'm not too fond of this myself, especially in those situations where people should be alert, like when resting during a walk through the wilds.
I can see not being able to -scan- while sitting, at least if we assume that scanning takes a lot of active involvement and isn't just "looking around really alertly..."
But not being able to at least watch in a direction while sitting seems silly.
Scanning should work while sitting, but not while resting, imo.
Morg,
I really dig what you're doing, but has it ever occurred to you that instead of turning off things, you can simply half them? This would probably be more realistic, given the example of scan, and yet not be an on/off thing.
Quote from: Fathi on November 04, 2008, 07:18:54 PM
I can see not being able to -scan- while sitting, at least if we assume that scanning takes a lot of active involvement and isn't just "looking around really alertly..."
But not being able to at least watch in a direction while sitting seems silly.
I agree 100% with this.
Hell, having to stand while scanning also gives pc guards a role in watching over discussions taking place at tables, I don't see any need for people to be perfectly alert at all times. It also should discourage people for scanning and them slumping back into their bar seat, secure that they'll spot anyone trying to pick their pocket. All in all, I think that has a positive effect on the game.
Watching however... I'd really think that it should be possible to set up a chair watching the door, crouch above a hole, etc etc. I don't think about watching quite the same way. Although a case could be made for wilderness rooms and crowd rooms, a lot of areas in the game are simply too large or too crowded to watch from a stool in a corner, you really would need to be on your feet to do it in those cases.
A shame that guard, watch and scan can't differentiate between busy rooms, big rooms, small rooms, empty rooms and so forth... but I hear that's what Arm2.0 will fix.
This is something I just simply won't agree with. If I am in my estate, and want to relax on my couch, I shouldn't magickally NOT notice the new aide sneak in and hide behind the couch, while I am laying down and staring at the doorway, because according to the room description, that is where the couch faces.
I shouldn't have to magickally cease to be capable of noticing people coming in and out of a fairly sparsely populated area, just because I'm sitting down. This whole "stop scanning when you sit" really only applies to bars, because bars are crowded places, and it makes sense, in a way, to not be able to notice AS MUCH when you're sitting as when you're standing, in crowded places like that.
However, I think that is something that needs to be addressed by skill ability, and not an auto-off toggle. For instance:
if roompopulation = lots
then flagroomscan = half skill
if roompulation = busy but not lots
then flagroomscan = three quarters skill
if roompopulation = the Gaj between late afternoon and dawn
then flagroomscan = one quarter skill.
if roompopulation = sparse or fewer
then flagroomscan = full strength
And that would apply to anyone who is sitting or resting or laying down. The "skill level" would be compared to each individual person's current maximum level of skill. So if you suck at listen to begin with, then your suckitude would be twice as sucky if you were in a popular bar in the daytime. If your skill is amazing and uber and completely maxed out, then it would be halved, if you were in the same bar that the sucky listener is in.
Being able to scan then sit was a bug that was fixed. Why would you think we make you stand up to scan if we didn't intend it to only be used while standing up and looking around?
I'm not sure if this was brought up but since Listen and Scan are now toggle skills, how would one improve in his/her listen and scan abilities?
What I mean to say is, is it still the same as before to where you become better by fail-checks, etc. that your not aware of or does simply turning listen/scan on increase one's ability?
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 04, 2008, 10:08:51 PM
I'm not sure if this was brought up but since Listen and Scan are now toggle skills, how would one improve in his/her listen and scan abilities?
What I mean to say is, is it still the same as before to where you become better by fail-checks, etc. that your not aware of or does simply turning listen/scan on increase one's ability?
I always thought that it would be similar to the barrier skill.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 04, 2008, 10:08:51 PM
I'm not sure if this was brought up but since Listen and Scan are now toggle skills, how would one improve in his/her listen and scan abilities?
What I mean to say is, is it still the same as before to where you become better by fail-checks, etc. that your not aware of or does simply turning listen/scan on increase one's ability?
Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 04, 2008, 10:23:35 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 04, 2008, 10:08:51 PM
I'm not sure if this was brought up but since Listen and Scan are now toggle skills, how would one improve in his/her listen and scan abilities?
What I mean to say is, is it still the same as before to where you become better by fail-checks, etc. that your not aware of or does simply turning listen/scan on increase one's ability?
Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.
Oh, rly?
Furthermore, the change to scan is understood now, though I still do not agree completely with scan going away completely when you sit down. But that is beyond the point.
Good work, man.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 04, 2008, 07:56:59 PM
Morg,
I really dig what you're doing, but has it ever occurred to you that instead of turning off things, you can simply half them? This would probably be more realistic, given the example of scan, and yet not be an on/off thing.
I thought this bears repeating. I like gradients better than on/off switches.
I like that as well.
Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.
Quote from: KIA on November 05, 2008, 02:24:54 AM
Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.
I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 05, 2008, 09:19:55 AM
Quote from: KIA on November 05, 2008, 02:24:54 AM
Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.
I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).
Or with a sneaky friend. But the spamminess is actually gone now, right?
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 05, 2008, 09:44:01 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 05, 2008, 09:19:55 AM
Quote from: KIA on November 05, 2008, 02:24:54 AM
Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.
I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).
Or with a sneaky friend.
Hehe, coded hide and seek, never though of that one... now we know why 'rynth rat children are so good at what they do. :D
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 05, 2008, 09:44:01 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 05, 2008, 09:19:55 AM
Quote from: KIA on November 05, 2008, 02:24:54 AM
Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.
I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).
Or with a sneaky friend. But the spamminess is actually gone now, right?
Spaminess is increased exponentially now actually.
Pre-change: I didn't know if my scan was actually working, until/unless I saw something that the skill reveals.
Post-change: I KNOW it isn't working if I just stood up, and I KNOW it stopped working the second I sat down. So every time I stand up I will run "scan." Every single time. And - I am far less likely to sit down than I was before. That means I am less likely to answer people over the Way, because now I don't -just- have the Way drain to deal with when I'm standing up, I -also- have scan and listen drain, OR I have to lose scan just so I can sit down and not have that drain.
In the middle of the desert, when I'm a desert elf ranger, sitting down to rest my legs after a long run, there's no reason in the world why I am suddenly incapable of seeing a *IC* that I know is there, when I knew the *IC* was there before I sat down. Especially if that *IC* is my sister, or my best friend, or my lover, and we were running together, and suddenly I can't see him, even though he's sitting next to me, and I have the skill to see *IC* well enough to have seen *IC* from the moment we started our run until the moment I sat down? How exactly am I supposed to roleplay that out? Why should I have to?
Quote from: Lizzie on November 05, 2008, 11:17:05 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 05, 2008, 09:44:01 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 05, 2008, 09:19:55 AM
Quote from: KIA on November 05, 2008, 02:24:54 AM
Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.
I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).
Or with a sneaky friend. But the spamminess is actually gone now, right?
Spaminess is increased exponentially now actually.
Pre-change: I didn't know if my scan was actually working, until/unless I saw something that the skill reveals.
Post-change: I KNOW it isn't working if I just stood up, and I KNOW it stopped working the second I sat down. So every time I stand up I will run "scan." Every single time. And - I am far less likely to sit down than I was before. That means I am less likely to answer people over the Way, because now I don't -just- have the Way drain to deal with when I'm standing up, I -also- have scan and listen drain, OR I have to lose scan just so I can sit down and not have that drain.
In the middle of the desert, when I'm a desert elf ranger, sitting down to rest my legs after a long run, there's no reason in the world why I am suddenly incapable of seeing a *IC* that I know is there, when I knew the *IC* was there before I sat down. Especially if that *IC* is my sister, or my best friend, or my lover, and we were running together, and suddenly I can't see him, even though he's sitting next to me, and I have the skill to see *IC* well enough to have seen *IC* from the moment we started our run until the moment I sat down? How exactly am I supposed to roleplay that out? Why should I have to?
You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 11:22:08 AM
You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.
What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?
Amos
| \
Malik Talia
|
Jaks
Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 05, 2008, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 11:22:08 AM
You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.
What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?
Amos
| \
Malik Talia
|
Jaks
Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.
Could you go into further detail as to what you're expecting them to gain? And talk about how this would affect people shadowing you?
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 11:30:20 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 05, 2008, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 11:22:08 AM
You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.
What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?
Amos
| \
Malik Talia
|
Jaks
Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.
Could you go into further detail as to what you're expecting them to gain? And talk about how this would affect people shadowing you?
Malik and Talia follow Amos. When Jaks begins following Malik, make him, effectively, start watching all three,
and vice versa. Everyone in the group is watching each other--maybe at a reduced level from full
watch, but they shouldn't generally lose sight of each other.
I think I would still allow intentional watching of someone outside the group, though that's slightly abusable.
Shadowing: the person shadowing might get a watch bonus vs. his victim, but not vice versa, and he needn't be paying especial attention to others in the group. There's really no change necessary here, except if it needs detangling from "follow." Probably should leave this to the watch command, or force the shadower to watch only his victim.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 05, 2008, 11:39:17 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 11:30:20 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 05, 2008, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 11:22:08 AM
You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.
What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?
Amos
| \
Malik Talia
|
Jaks
Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.
Could you go into further detail as to what you're expecting them to gain? And talk about how this would affect people shadowing you?
Malik and Talia follow Amos. When Jaks begins following Malik, make him, effectively, start watching all three, and vice versa. Everyone in the group is watching each other--maybe at a reduced level from full watch, but they shouldn't generally lose sight of each other.
I think I would still allow intentional watching of someone outside the group, though that's slightly abusable.
Shadowing: the person shadowing might get a watch bonus vs. his victim, but not vice versa, and he needn't be paying especial attention to others in the group. There's really no change necessary here, except if it needs detangling from "follow." Probably should leave this to the watch command, or force the shadower to watch only his victim.
Shadowing someone is the exact same as following them, except without the follow echo. We don't keep track of the fact that you want to shadow them, so there's no way to differentiate the two.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 01:39:14 PM
Shadowing someone is the exact same as following them, except without the follow echo. We don't keep track of the fact that you want to shadow them, so there's no way to differentiate the two.
...but you could. ;)
Since it isn't a secret - invisible people happen. There. It's said. Now we can get on with the actual situation without beating around the bush...
Let's say I'm a mundane, normal, rangerly type, with excellent scan skill. I'm a desert elf, in a tribe that has mostly rangers and people who can be invisible. Rangers can also hide, don't forget - so I'm leading a group of 5 people, in addition to myself, on a raiding expedition. There's me, there's 2 hidden rangers, and there's three invisible people. They're all relatives, I see them with my uber scan skill, I know they're with me, and in fact, I invited them to be with me.
After awhile, it's time to relax and grab a bite to eat, rest our legs, share a bottle of wine. We take turns, because some of us have to remain on guard in case of trouble. Obviously the hidden people will become unhidden when they sit - makes sense, but then when they stand up again they hide behind that boulder over there to watch for trouble while it's my turn to sit. So I sit. Near the boulder, where I -could- notice the shadows of my 2 hiding ranger cousins. And the three invisible people are still right there in front of me, being no more invisible than they were before. And all of a sudden, I can't see any indication that ANY of these five people are with me. Sure Morg, I could watch one. So I'm watching one. What about the other four?
Sitting shouldn't toggle off scan. I just think it shouldn't, I haven't seen any arguements or discussion on this thread that would convince me otherwise. I'm all for a -reduction in skill- when you sit. But not to toggle it off.
As a staff, we consider scan to be moving around and actively looking for things out of the ordinary. It isn't just craning your neck where you stand. This is why you must be standing to start scanning.
That said, I will agree that a reduction in skill based on position other than standing isn't a horrible idea, but in my mind that would have to be a severe penalty, especially for resting.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 02:32:23 PM
As a staff, we consider scan to be moving around and actively looking for things out of the ordinary. It isn't just craning your neck where you stand. This is why you must be standing to start scanning.
That said, I will agree that a reduction in skill based on position other than standing isn't a horrible idea, but in my mind that would have to be a severe penalty, especially for resting.
I'm 150% behind you on that, Morg. Honest injun, I'm not asking that people should be capable of laying down in the middle of a crowded bar, during rush hour, while three brawls are going on, and be able to see a maxed-out sneaky thief slink in and hide behind the bar. I agree -completely- that this makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. But I'm considering all the -other- times when a person has scan running and rather than the "intention" of what scan was created for, the "function" of scan. What it allows you to do, codedly.
So if that means I'd lay down and have my ability to see someone hiding drastically reduced, then that's fine! As long as I have -some- chance of seeing "a strange shadow" if that shadow is like - a newbie sneak who just got lucky that one time, and my scan skill is as good as the code provides the best scanner in the game. If I suck at scanning, my chances of noticing much past the end of my own nose while laying down should be pretty slim :)
If I'm sitting, I should be able to have a -chance- to see people who are either not so great at hiding, but managed to do so successfully, or invisible people who may or may not be good at being invisible, but have chosen for whatever reason, to only be "a little" invisible (the power level set low).
The -chance- to see being reduced somewhat when seated, and significantly when reclining, makes sense. It's just having zero chance at all that made no sense and really put the kabosh on playability for rangerly and merchantly types, who rely on their outstanding perception for their primary defense, IMO.
I really appreciate your considering my rant, Morgenes. I don't get too grumpy about much when it comes to code changes, even the ones I don't really like. But this one thing - dunno why but it was a real thorn in my side.
Next reboot this will be in.
Even my mammaries manage to mist with merriment over the magnanimousness that is Morgenes.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 05, 2008, 03:11:41 PM
Next reboot this will be in.
I've seen about three other posts with just this simple phrase, after you having to listen to our insistent nagging.
Your truly amazing, man.
Before the change, with near maxed listen I can catch 90% of the conversation.
After the change, I can catch about 2/3 of the conversation at most.
I am not sure if it is because my character is too dumb, but when someone is particularly leaning over the table, not able to hear your friend calling your name is a bit awkward. :P And you can't stand at some tables. I still like the change though!
I do. I do~
Very high listen seems to work only 1/8 times for me perhaps at most 1/6 ...
Perhaps it needs to be tweaked a bit in favor of listeners, this seems a stiff penalty.
Also, who not add some syntax, like watch. So I could 'listen bar' to focus my listening on the nearby patrons at a bar, or 'listen table' or even 'listen north'. Perhaps even 'listen elf' would be nice, to target specifically what they say or try to whisper.
Alternatively, listening just needs to be slightly easier for someone with a high skill.
KIA
I've noticed this too, I've tried listen while sitting, standing, watching the person I'm listening too.. I catch almost nothing EXCEPT when I toggle the skill I catch like the first things said almost every time.
I suspect this is a bug. But I hope the but is also that we're catching like nothing because if the stun loss is any indication my char is very good at listen and still can't hear a damned thing. Literally.
When we're watching someone, can we see who they're watching, or when they start watching someone else?
Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.
As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 06, 2008, 08:44:45 PM
Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.
Yes, this is bugged, sorry, we'll fix it tomorrow.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 06, 2008, 08:44:45 PM
As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.
I don't think so.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 06, 2008, 10:39:13 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 06, 2008, 08:44:45 PM
Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.
Yes, this is bugged, sorry, we'll fix it tomorrow.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 06, 2008, 08:44:45 PM
As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.
I don't think so.
Well. I was thinking along the lines at the time of people knowing where to find hidden creatures (from past PCs) having a vastly easier time raising it, then someone starting fresh. But I guess it probably isn't worth an actual overhaul.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 10, 2008, 11:06:03 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 06, 2008, 10:39:13 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 06, 2008, 08:44:45 PM
Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.
Yes, this is bugged, sorry, we'll fix it tomorrow.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 06, 2008, 08:44:45 PM
As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.
I don't think so.
You can also find someone in game that can help you.
Well. I was thinking along the lines at the time of people knowing where to find hidden creatures (from past PCs) having a vastly easier time raising it, then someone starting fresh. But I guess it probably isn't worth an actual overhaul.
I haven't been able to play much, but the reduced costs for scan and listen border on ridiculous, even at high levels. Couldn't we up them both to around 5 stun loss so I actually get the impression my character is exerting himself?
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 10, 2008, 12:04:11 PM
I haven't been able to play much, but the reduced costs for scan and listen border on ridiculous, even at high levels. Couldn't we up them both to around 5 stun loss so I actually get the impression my character is exerting himself?
As you wish ;)
So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...
Quote from: Bilanthri on November 10, 2008, 12:55:28 PM
So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...
Yes, back up to a middle ground, which I agree is better. I think the new numbers will give it a little more teeth at upper levels, which is where we were seeing the issue.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 10, 2008, 12:58:36 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on November 10, 2008, 12:55:28 PM
So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...
Yes, back up to a middle ground, which I agree is better. I think the new numbers will give it a little more teeth at upper levels, which is where we were seeing the issue.
No, please no. It was perfect as it was. I couldn't disagree more with Dalmeth. A single flippant comment from a single person who hasn't even played much should not be an immediate reason for change. The stun costs as they are, are just about right.
Quote from: Bilanthri on November 10, 2008, 12:55:28 PM
So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...
Dalmeth was the first (and only) guy to defend the original big -10 drop, who everyone disagreed with, whereupon it was changed. Now that it is changed, he is the first one, while admitting he hasn't played much, who calls for it to be raised again. I think we should definitely wait to see how everyone else reacts.
I definitely like the way that reductions works now. It's much more in line with how the rest of the skills work.
FWIW, the reduced costs as they currently stand (at upper skill levels) are the only reason I'm not stil frothing at the mouth over being penalized in stun. It is still noticeable, especially if you don't have a good roll and every point counts.
I still move for a stam drop or to get rid of the penalty entirely.
I was thinking listen should work better when you're watching your target, that way you can see their lips moving. This doesn't seem to be the way it currently works.
Also it would be nice if we could check the status of all three at once, or even have it added to stat. You might have a stun rate somewehre cause you failed to remember having listen and scan on.
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 10, 2008, 01:18:02 PM
I still move for a stam drop or to get rid of the penalty entirely.
Stamina drop still makes a bit more sense than Stun.
Yet I defer this one to the Staff and players who've been around much longer as it seems that this will have different repercussions across the scale.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 10, 2008, 04:20:12 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 10, 2008, 01:18:02 PM
I still move for a stam drop or to get rid of the penalty entirely.
Stamina drop still makes a bit more sense than Stun.
Yet I defer this one to the Staff and players who've been around much longer as it seems that this will have different repercussions across the scale.
Stun drop makes perfect sense.
Stun is what we pay for mental skills (the way)
Stamina for physical skills.
They are all four mental skills, you're not just listening, you're parsing what is noise and what is important information, infact more likely parsing than listening your ears afterall, always work.
Scan you're not just looking, youre actively taking in informatoin, shadows here or there, weird variations in what you see. Once again your eyes always see stuff scan is adding your brain to the equation actively.
Same for watch and guard.
Stun makes sense, perfect sense.
Yes, I see that logic.
But answer me this: does it make sense to be more susceptible to getting knocked out because you're paying attention to your surroundings?
Scan/watch/listen and sometimes you have to use barrier on top of it too.
It is such a big drop in stun point! I think the system as it is is fine. People who have not logged on much to test out the code in practice should try it out before suggesting ideas to make life more difficult for others. :P
I mean, with the slow, slow, slow way scan and listen will be improving, higher skills should enjoy lower stun cost. Anyone who lived through the monotone of skill improving while rped it decently should not be too severely penalized for their efforts.
Does it make more sense that you are more easily knocked out because you're using the way?
No, in either case it doesn't make sense. You can have someone hit you in the foot over and over and eventually die to just foot injuries with a club.
Stun, HP and ST all three stats are taking a wide array of things into account and trying to place them into three little catigories? Is it perfect? No, Will it ever be? No. But I'd say it's reasonably as close as we can expect to get right now.
Isee your arguement, but we generalize on this game. Life is too complicated to capture in code without doing so.
This just being my views.
Quote from: UnderSeven on November 10, 2008, 05:00:29 PMDoes it make more sense that you are more easily knocked out because you're using the way?
Yes, it does, it reflects intense mental focus on something inward (not outward). Use of the brain to contact another mind. You can pass out from it. There is a constant stun drain.That seems very intentional to me.
Watching your surroundings for that braxat should not mean it has an easier time bopping you over the head.
Okay then I think we're splitting hairs. Either way we're talking about mental focus that makes your mind less able to keep itself conscious. My experience playinng with these features is the actual loss of Stun is negligable at best. I lose single digit stun points, not even close to double digits. So if we're going to call them both mental strain and the way intense (where a single way easily takes double digits stun) and scan (taking a small fraction of that) then I don't see the problem here?
Maybe it's a question of how good you are with the skill in which case the question might be further an arguement about is someone new to something like scanning needing that much more mental power? I can only see what my char sees, but the stun losses I experience are so low that they're not even factored into myy play, even if I stack these skills on top of each other.
The point and I hope I havn't gotten too ic, is that if we both agree that it is a mental strain, but your arguement is that you are easier to knock out, I would have to politely disagree. The stun loss to my experience is negligable at best.
Actually I take it back.
I agree with you on one point.
Watch shouldn't be taking stun in all cases, either watch needs more love in what it does or it needs to not take stun. Seriously. Watch west? All it does and I mean ALL it does is saves you the trouble of spamming look west over and over and over and over again. That shouldn't be taking stun, I agree. Watching an individual should, watching a direction should not.
I think we can agree on some things and split hairs on others, you're right.
The thing is that when this first went in, I was losing 20 points just scanning/listening. I hate to think of those rangers who are asked to guard and/or barrier their minds when outdoors ON TOP of trying to be alert. You're talking a loss of 35, 45 stun. It was adjusted to lower the costs depending on skill, and I came around to the idea (though I still don't like it). It was manageable, if distasteful. Now there's talk of bumping the stun loss up again.
That is what I strongly disagree with. Can we leave well enough alone?
Quote from: UnderSeven on November 10, 2008, 05:00:29 PM
Does it make more sense that you are more easily knocked out because you're using the way?
No, in either case it doesn't make sense. You can have someone hit you in the foot over and over and eventually die to just foot injuries with a club.
Stun, HP and ST all three stats are taking a wide array of things into account and trying to place them into three little catigories? Is it perfect? No, Will it ever be? No. But I'd say it's reasonably as close as we can expect to get right now.
Isee your arguement, but we generalize on this game. Life is too complicated to capture in code without doing so.
This just being my views.
Well. It DOES make more sense that you can be knocked out by using the Way because the Way is an immense mental output of energy at the limit of evolution for most.
Being more alert to your surroundings should not facilitate being knocked out easier.
Frankly, I am shocked that this discussion still continues, considering how reasonable, elegant and fair, it's current implementation is. It retained a stun drop, but made it mostly overcome-able by the expertly skilled.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 02, 2008, 08:07:35 PM
... applying a -1 to all skills that stacks with each mode of attention the PC engaging in.
These numbers, -10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch regarding stun, would become these numbers, -2 for guard, scan, and listen and -1 for watch, regarding all skills. This does mean that if you are guarding, scanning, and listening, you will suffer -6 to both these skills and every other skill you use during this period.
I'm
still pretty sure that this is not only more playable, but still manages to convey the strain on you when doing things like scanning, hiding, listen, etc.
The idea that a player with high skills is annoyed that they can do all their, now reflexive, skills without much penalty is ridiculous. If you want to get penalized, make a newbie. The point of low penalties at high skill is to reflect the mastery of the skill.
I understand that new code tweaks are something interesting to experience, but asking for it to suck more for new characters so that your Master can experiences the code change kinda.....well, sucks.
These tweaks are getting kind of 'weird'. I'm not fully understanding the ultimate direction here, possibly.
Also I'll repeat: When we're watching someone, could we make it so we can see if they start watching someone else?
Hell, it'd be cool (but not necessary, just cool) to even see whether they are scanning, guarding, or at high levels of watch, even when they seem to start listening.
Yours truly,
KIA
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 10, 2008, 05:03:31 PM
Watching your surroundings for that braxat should not mean it has an easier time bopping you over the head.
You really are thinking about this all wrong. Consider this : try reading four about four hours straight without rest and see how clear-headed you are then. You've almost certainly done an all night study session. What we're talking about is far more work than reading.
Besides, a person who isn't too good at being alert actually places themselves in a more vulnerable position to get bopped on the head. A person just going about their business not only tends to move at a faster speed but also tends to be less predictable. Listen now affects sneaky attacks, so those spending that extra effort to be alert now have a real combat advantage. Where there once was no real defense against sneaky attacks, now you have an advantage. Relish in it.
I want a reasonable penalty because it's realistic. It requires strategy to use correctly. Too much in this game is given clean and without penalty. If I have to take a hit with my characters until other parts of the game are set to right, then so be it.
The only other change that's needed is the way listen is broken on standing up. It doesn't make sense that you'd suddenly close off your senses upon standing up. This needs to be fixed.
A derail, though this relates to the stun costs being attributed to skills:
Since stun loss is now reflected based upon how well your actual skill is with listen/scan, could we have the same idea implemented for barrier/contact? Perhaps have the max stun cap loss lower depending on how well your barrier skill is, while regarding contact, have less and less stun be sapped per 'way' as you progress in skill?
"Way drain" already works that way for contact/barrier Lakota. Unless you're asking for the "max stun" to rise closer to normal with skill increases?
As for realism, I disagree with Dalmeth on this, with a couple of very specific points. Using your example, the reader who has been reading for four hours, and finally puts his book down, will certainly have a little mental drain, and take a moment to reacquaint himself with his surroundings. However, he won't have to do that, within the first five minutes of picking the book UP to read it in the first place. Unfortunately, the game code doesn't accommodate that. Your character's "visual acuity" will be the same within the first second of toggling on those listen/scan/watch/barrier skills, as they will after an hour, assuming they're still running after that hour. There will be no gradual drain. The drain and max stun drop begins the very second you toggle it, and ends when it wears off or when you turn it off.
That is -not- realistic, and what's worse, it isn't even fun for fantasy, which isn't intended to be realistic. It doesn't make IC sense, and it is far more annoying, than it is playable. I really wouldn't like to see the code changed such that the longer you have those skills running, the more "tired" mentally you get. But if you want "realism," then that is what you should be shooting for. Not an increased stun drop at the start of the use of the skill.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 11, 2008, 08:46:23 AM
"Way drain" already works that way for contact/barrier Lakota. Unless you're asking for the "max stun" to rise closer to normal with skill increases?
Yar, you got it. Guess I wasn't clear enough.
I still want to harp on Watch a little here.
I think Watch shouldn't be considered the same skill if you're using it on a person or if you're using it on a direction.
Lets consider. On a person it might make certain skills easier, it might make certain skills harder and it might make it possible for you to notice stuff. I don't know for sure, I'm sure this is a find out ic situation, but all and all, it does a lot of neat stuff.
Now watch on a direction. It will tell you if something in that direction changes, but not ANYTHING you couldn't find out anyway by typing look in that direction, infact you might learn more if you spam look in a direction because changes to ldesc doesn't for instance, come up on watch. Finally add the fact you can't scan and watch a direction, orr watch more than one direction (while you can spam looking in all directions manually) and you have a "skill" that is doing almost nothing for the price of what it would of been doing had you had it on a person.
I think watch in a direction needs to do more. A lot more. I think in addition to giving us the benefit of changes in that direction, it should tell us little things in that direction too. Maybe emotes that occur? Maybe tell us when people are talking (even if it doesn't tell us what they are saying) Boost listen for that direction, make certain things, ranged attacks from that direction a lot less likely to hit. So on and so fourth.
Maybe it does some of these things already, but I doubt it.
I also think watching a person, if it doesn't already, shoudl probably boost chances of listen on that person succeeding.
End rant.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 11, 2008, 08:46:23 AM
I really wouldn't like to see the code changed such that the longer you have those skills running, the more "tired" mentally you get. But if you want "realism," then that is what you should be shooting for. Not an increased stun drop at the start of the use of the skill.
Add a hidden "mental fatigue" index that integrates effort over time to affect max stun:
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm140/inertialinix/calibrate.jpg)
Fig. 1. A three-day hunting trip.
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 11, 2008, 02:19:35 AM
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 10, 2008, 05:03:31 PM
Watching your surroundings for that braxat should not mean it has an easier time bopping you over the head.
You really are thinking about this all wrong. Consider this : try reading four about four hours straight without rest and see how clear-headed you are then. You've almost certainly done an all night study session. What we're talking about is far more work than reading.
Besides, a person who isn't too good at being alert actually places themselves in a more vulnerable position to get bopped on the head. A person just going about their business not only tends to move at a faster speed but also tends to be less predictable. Listen now affects sneaky attacks, so those spending that extra effort to be alert now have a real combat advantage. Where there once was no real defense against sneaky attacks, now you have an advantage. Relish in it.
I want a reasonable penalty because it's realistic. It requires strategy to use correctly. Too much in this game is given clean and without penalty. If I have to take a hit with my characters until other parts of the game are set to right, then so be it.
The only other change that's needed is the way listen is broken on standing up. It doesn't make sense that you'd suddenly close off your senses upon standing up. This needs to be fixed.
Except for your last point about listening needing to not be broken on standing up, I disagree with you on everything else.
What exactly are the changes to listen on sneaky attacks as the updates say?
Is this sneaky attacker side or sneaky attackee side, etc?
Quote from: Bogre on November 11, 2008, 11:56:24 AM
What exactly are the changes to listen on sneaky attacks as the updates say?
Is this sneaky attacker side or sneaky attackee side, etc?
It isn't specified, but if you think about where listening would be useful, you might get a clue.
Like sneaky attacks.
Bbbbbbbbbackstab!
I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?
Quote from: mattrious on November 12, 2008, 08:10:38 AM
I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?
You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 12, 2008, 08:18:38 AM
Quote from: mattrious on November 12, 2008, 08:10:38 AM
I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?
You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.
Actually. No, I do not need to read the thread. Thank you for pointing this out though.
Quote from: mattrious on November 12, 2008, 10:02:34 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 12, 2008, 08:18:38 AM
Quote from: mattrious on November 12, 2008, 08:10:38 AM
I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?
You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.
Actually. No, I do not need to read the thread. Thank you for pointing this out though.
These are not the droids you're looking for.
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 12, 2008, 11:32:25 AM
Quote from: mattrious on November 12, 2008, 10:02:34 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 12, 2008, 08:18:38 AM
Quote from: mattrious on November 12, 2008, 08:10:38 AM
I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?
You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.
Actually. No, I do not need to read the thread. Thank you for pointing this out though.
These are not the droids you're looking for.
You actually serve that purpose quite well. Regardless, I am not going to wade through five or six pages of posts, that all say the same thing in regards to how much stun a certain skill is going to take. I just wanted to know if this is something that is going to be considered. You can save your smart ass remarks for your children as I'm sure they will be much more receptive to your insight than I.
Quote from: mattrious on November 12, 2008, 12:06:27 PM
You actually serve that purpose quite well. Regardless, I am not going to wade through five or six pages of posts, that all say the same thing in regards to how much stun a certain skill is going to take. I just wanted to know if this is something that is going to be considered. You can save your smart ass remarks for your children as I'm sure they will be much more receptive to your insight than I.
I sense much anger in this one.
Seriously though, let me clarify, so you won't get the impression that I'm being snarky.
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 12, 2008, 08:18:38 AM
You need to read the thread if you want to see what has been said on this matter. This has been addressed.
As per the recent change -
Listen cost, even maxed, for some guilds are high. Well, for my guild.
Combine it with scan, watch, and (barrier, come now, necessary!) some other skills, it is really killing.
It might be easier to just be a warrior and knock people out. :P
I like the change anyway. And let's not listen to Tisiphone. She's the baddie that makes life so hard for criminals guilds and ranger guild! ;)
I think it's odd how alot of people are commenting that they have maxxed skills... cause if I'm figuring it right they really don't know.
Brandon
Quote from: Morgenes on November 10, 2008, 12:48:44 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 10, 2008, 12:04:11 PM
I haven't been able to play much, but the reduced costs for scan and listen border on ridiculous, even at high levels. Couldn't we up them both to around 5 stun loss so I actually get the impression my character is exerting himself?
As you wish ;)
I might be wrong. It's just a theory, a small ... suspicion on my part. But reading through the coarse of this thread, aswell as the barrier thread, and the like I noticed a funny little tendency. Every time some single individual decides to take it upon himself to mention how much they dislike the new change and propose a suggestion that's even worse (No blame to themselves ofcourse, they're judging things from the knowledge of their character's perspective and stats, not the data of the whole playerbase), Morgenes is ... happy to oblige. So ... when you post 'suggestions', remember, you might be digging a hole for 'yourself'.
Quote from: FuSoYa on November 12, 2008, 08:18:12 PM
I think it's odd how alot of people are commenting that they have maxxed skills... cause if I'm figuring it right they really don't know.
Brandon
Well, one way of looking at it is that if you have around 30 playing days and some skills you have used pretty regularly, you have more or less maxed it.
Watching your success rate is another way too. Not to mention the several changes in the codes would have more or less tipped you off on your char's rank in certain skills.
Back to the code. I like it how scans and listen don't drop completely, and is instead merely turned off during combat. Very lovely, but the stun points cost is still too major. 6 stun points don't seem much, but several skills are often used together, so the stacked result is...
... scary.
Heh several skills stacked together? 6 stun loss? Try...
13 stun loss using listen and scan -only- - and you only have 89 to start with, bringing your current max total down to a whopping 76 stun.
Then..
You're walking along a dingy road in town, in a place where your character -needs- to be capable of noticing if something is suspicious in close proximity - and Templar Bobo finds your mind and demands your immediate response. Contact templar - down to 67 stun. Psi Hello Templar Bobo I'm walking right now, will find your mind again in one hour when I'm in a safer place...
Now you're down to 44 stun.
And the thing you were trying to keep an eye out for, is now standing behind you with his weighted sap up over your head....
all that, because you not only aren't THAT good with listen or scan yet, so you get the penalty of not being able to see that guy with the weighted sap, but you ALSO have an automatic 13 point stun drain for attempting to see him...which means, you're the one who gets yourself dead, just because you were trying to stay alive. For no other reason at all. JUST because you were using the available coded commands to protect yourself in the only coded way your particular character is capable of doing so.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 13, 2008, 08:08:34 AM
Heh several skills stacked together? 6 stun loss? Try...
13 stun loss using listen and scan -only- - and you only have 89 to start with, bringing your current max total down to a whopping 76 stun.
No no, 6 stun points from listen /alone/. Then you stack in the scan stun point cost. Barrier. And some people do guard. And now you are around a grand total of 25+ stun points down.
And by the way, that is with scan/listen/barrier all maxed, too.
Now I challenge anyone who dares to pick on a moderately hard animal to hunt with severely capped stun points. Or backstab your victim. Or go sparring. Or do anything shady!
The result is that I have to stop listen/scan/barrier/anything. Wait for stun points to go up. Then do blood letting. I understand the roleplay reasons or reality reasons or whatever. I just find the penalty to be a little too evil. Still prefer the earlier version, which means a char would lose around 14 stun points while going down on some serious and shady business. It is bad enough I think. :)
For the light weight users on the other hand, like aides who sit in the bars. Having a 10 stun points down for listen wouldn't have hurt much at all.
I suggest that you aren't really maxed then Melody. Unless an IMM has told you, you really have no way of knowing (as FuSoYa said previously in this thread). I know I'm not maxed, and I even notice that I've improved, because yesterday I was using listen, it wore off, I turned it back on, and lost 1 point less than I lost before it fell off.
It -does- get better with improvement in the skill. Morgenes has already said he's coded it that way. I'm just saying, that it's still pretty severe, when your character is already penalized by not being "expert" at something, by not being able to make the most use of that something. And to add to the risk of consequences for not being able to make the most use of that something, you -also- get stun drain that can -very easily- mean the difference between life and death if some noob dwarf with a sap decides it's your turn for him to use as target practice.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 13, 2008, 10:25:45 AM
And to add to the risk of consequences for not being able to make the most use of that something, you -also- get stun drain that can -very easily- mean the difference between life and death if some noob dwarf with a sap decides it's your turn for him to use as target practice.
You're missing the part where having these skills on gives you a chance to avoid the noob dwarf's sap. It's a trade off, would you rather take the chance that his sap won't do that much damage if it hits you and leave the skills off? Or do you think that one avoided sap is worth the stun cap?
QuoteNo no, 6 stun points from listen /alone/. Then you stack in the scan stun point cost. Barrier. And some people do guard. And now you are around a grand total of 25+ stun points down... Now I challenge anyone who dares to pick on a moderately hard animal to hunt with severely capped stun points. Or backstab your victim. Or go sparring. Or do anything shady!
I don't see why you need to have listen/watch/scan/guard all up going hunting, unless what you're hunting can sneak, hide, and backstab/sap. Then it wouldn't be a moderately hard animal nor an animal that's being hunted, but rather hunting YOU. It's a challenge and trade-off I believe is definitely more realistic and enjoyable.
Edited to add: And if you're hunting or trying to avoid an animal/humanoid with those kind of capabilities that you need to do all those things, the mental sharpness and stress required to be on your toes at all moments is likely portrayed with the stun loss.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2008, 11:29:45 AM
You're missing the part where having these skills on gives you a chance to avoid the noob dwarf's sap. It's a trade off, would you rather take the chance that his sap won't do that much damage if it hits you and leave the skills off? Or do you think that one avoided sap is worth the stun cap?
On the flip note, does having scan/listen and such on also help avoiding spell effects? I think that would be a nice balance...
Edit: I am fickle. Don't see the point in argument any more. Going to wait for next reboot :P
Please please please reduce the max caps (or here's a novel idea, balance out the skills vs. each other without penalizing a point stat).
I've already said all I can say on the subject. Still, 6 is steep. 2 was tolerable. 3 would be livable. 6 is more than we lose for barrier.
Come on, Morg. Usually I'm your biggest fan, but this is just another blow to mundane enjoyability. :(
Edit: I am a big fan of "playability" over realism. This is at its heart a gritty fantasy game, not a reality simulator.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2008, 11:29:45 AM
You're missing the part where having these skills on gives you a chance to avoid the noob dwarf's sap. It's a trade off, would you rather take the chance that his sap won't do that much damage if it hits you and leave the skills off? Or do you think that one avoided sap is worth the stun cap?
Theres a playability issue. Stun is more easily lost than it is regenerated. Not only that, some people do not start out with much stun. And with these caps from the skills, they put oeople who rely on the combination of listen/scan in a bind. Coming from someone who usually enjoys the combat system and all the ins and outs of it, I feel that my character is at a huge disadvantage going into the fray.
the current implementation of scan, listen etc is bit less than optimal.
Okay. So it is suppressed on combat. So you can't use it, yet the scan stun costs remain.
That means you should stop scanning before entering combat and turn it on after. Which means the fact that it is suppressed upon entering combat and then brought back has no utility. Since you'll be wanting to do that anyways unless you want to risk fighting with 10-20 lower stun.
I think even in combat, scan and listen should continue to give SOME avoidance bonuses to stuff like sap, since you're still accepting the -stun penalty.
I have a question regarding the listen skill.
Currently, does it help with the learning of languages and accents? If it doesn't, should it?
It seems that focusing your attention on the spoken word would help with this.
Quote from: Ammut on November 14, 2008, 03:49:17 AM
I have a question regarding the listen skill.
Currently, does it help with the learning of languages and accents? If it doesn't, should it?
It seems that focusing your attention on the spoken word would help with this.
I don't know about the current state, but I do agree with your logic.
I hadn't seen this thread yet, but posted an alternate way to handle limiting scan/listen/etc in this thread (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,33114.msg399173.html#msg399173).
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 13, 2008, 10:19:13 PM
I think even in combat, scan and listen should continue to give SOME avoidance bonuses to stuff like sap, since you're still accepting the -stun penalty.
Penalties in favor of avoiding sap, backstab and probably steal already exist if you are engaged in combat.
Quote from: KIA on November 15, 2008, 09:48:20 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 13, 2008, 10:19:13 PM
I think even in combat, scan and listen should continue to give SOME avoidance bonuses to stuff like sap, since you're still accepting the -stun penalty.
Penalties in favor of avoiding sap, backstab and probably steal already exist if you are engaged in combat.
More penalties should apply if you are also at minus stun from having those skills up instead of turning them off before. Since the stun loss itself represents your distraction in paying SOME attention to it.
Penalties are very noticeable and stiff. More penalties really don't need to be applied.
Digging this one back up ...
Would it be possible for there to be some kind of echo for when your scan/listen goes down?
It seems to me like almost everything else on a timer in the game gets an echo for that, and I feel like sometimes it can be a little annoying to have, for example, my PC's listen randomly switch off when they were in point of fact, actually almost falling out of their chair from leaning so far over, trying to hear the conversation going on at the next table.
I'm thinking, espically with the way the new functionality of scan and listen work, where they're based off of individual checks every time a PC could see/overhear something ... all too often I end up just assuming my character failed the last couple listen checks.
But then I finally glance down and see that my guy's stun went back up to max ... and I think: Crap! I didn't even have it on and I could have turned it back on like 5 sentences ago and perhaps not missed that huge chunk of eves dropping that my PC was trying so hard to get in on.
I know that I could just toss out a listen/scan status command every minute or so to make sure in those situations ... and I'm totally cool making due with that if that's the way it has to be, but since I'm human, and tend to forget a lot ... if it's not too much trouble to throw an echo in for them, I'd really appreciate it.
I agree with the above. I'd also love for the "stat" command to show my guard, listen, watch, and scan status, rather than having to type four commands to see this information.
Quote from: musashi on December 14, 2008, 08:46:10 PM
Digging this one back up ...
Would it be possible for there to be some kind of echo for when your scan/listen goes down?
It seems to me like almost everything else on a timer in the game gets an echo for that, and I feel like sometimes it can be a little annoying to have, for example, my PC's listen randomly switch off when they were in point of fact, actually almost falling out of their chair from leaning so far over, trying to hear the conversation going on at the next table.
I'm thinking, espically with the way the new functionality of scan and listen work, where they're based off of individual checks every time a PC could see/overhear something ... all too often I end up just assuming my character failed the last couple listen checks.
But then I finally glance down and see that my guy's stun went back up to max ... and I think: Crap! I didn't even have it on and I could have turned it back on like 5 sentences ago and perhaps not missed that huge chunk of eves dropping that my PC was trying so hard to get in on.
I know that I could just toss out a listen/scan status command every minute or so to make sure in those situations ... and I'm totally cool making due with that if that's the way it has to be, but since I'm human, and tend to forget a lot ... if it's not too much trouble to throw an echo in for them, I'd really appreciate it.
When my listen stops working, I know this because my Max Stun goes UP to normal.
Quote from: mansa on December 14, 2008, 09:04:04 PM
Quote from: musashi on December 14, 2008, 08:46:10 PM
Digging this one back up ...
Would it be possible for there to be some kind of echo for when your scan/listen goes down?
It seems to me like almost everything else on a timer in the game gets an echo for that, and I feel like sometimes it can be a little annoying to have, for example, my PC's listen randomly switch off when they were in point of fact, actually almost falling out of their chair from leaning so far over, trying to hear the conversation going on at the next table.
I'm thinking, espically with the way the new functionality of scan and listen work, where they're based off of individual checks every time a PC could see/overhear something ... all too often I end up just assuming my character failed the last couple listen checks.
But then I finally glance down and see that my guy's stun went back up to max ... and I think: Crap! I didn't even have it on and I could have turned it back on like 5 sentences ago and perhaps not missed that huge chunk of eves dropping that my PC was trying so hard to get in on.
I know that I could just toss out a listen/scan status command every minute or so to make sure in those situations ... and I'm totally cool making due with that if that's the way it has to be, but since I'm human, and tend to forget a lot ... if it's not too much trouble to throw an echo in for them, I'd really appreciate it.
When my listen stops working, I know this because my Max Stun goes UP to normal.
I do too, I just have this terrible habit of always realizing that too late.
Why should they have durations at all? Or at least listen.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 14, 2008, 09:29:21 PM
Why should they have durations at all? Or at least listen.
They have durations to reflect how long your character can maintain listening or scanning. This is something that changes with skill level. If you want to be sure your character is constantly listening/scanning, turn them off and on occasionally. This shows you refreshing your concentration on the task.
We don't tell you when it expires because your character doesn't realize that they stopped listening or scanning. Would hardly be a point to having them expire if we told you when they did.