watch/scan/listen/guard changes

[Morgenes]

I've revamped the way that listen and scan work to work more like watch and guard, and in turn, borrowed some from listen and scan for watch and guard.  There is also now a cost associated with maintaining all of these actions.

Listen and scan have been changed so you don't get lagged for doing 'status' or 'off', just when you turn it on. Listen now works more like watch, scan and guard, where you don't just automatically overhear everything said. Now it uses a skill check, modified by the difficulty of the task at hand.

One major change here is I'm now letting everyone listen, even if they don't have the skill, but they will have little to no chance of overhearing anything without a really high wisdom or lots of luck.

I've reversed the changes to scan and listen so that they no longer break on fighting, instead making it more like guard where it just won't work if you're fighting. When you stop fighting it will still be active, so you don't have to turn it back on. This is done since listen/scan are now just toggle commands like watch to turn the affect on/off.  Watching and fighting was not changes with this code change.

Probably the biggest gameplay change for these skills is that they now all apply a drain to your maximum stun while in use (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch).  Note that these will stay on even while fighting for scan/listen/guard, so be thoughtful about leaving these on during combat.

[Fathi]

Probably the biggest gameplay change for these skills is that they now all apply a drain to your maximum stun while in use (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch).  Note that these will stay on even while fighting for scan/listen/guard, so be thoughtful about leaving these on during combat.

I severely disagree with this part.

I should not have to knock my current character's stun down to a cap of 60 or 65 (which is what it would be) to use some of the only skills that give her guild an advantage over other guilds, Morg.

Edit: to make the tone of this post less negative, I LOVE the rest of the changes. Especially letting -everyone- have a chance to listen, even if it's a hugely low chance.

However, I do not think that certain guilds should be punished even more than they already are for using the skills that were designed to make them competitive versus other guilds or capable of fulfilling their place in the gameworld.

Edit edit again: Can I ask why the changes to stun caps were implemented? I'm seriously not just trying to whine here, but this change is alarming. Considering the frequency with which my character gets knocked unconscious or almost unconscious with a stun cap that's 30 points higher, I would consider it darn near unplayable if her cap was made even lower just so she could use some of her guild's primary useful skills.

[Dalmeth]

Edit edit again: Can I ask why the changes to stun caps were implemented? I'm seriously not just trying to whine here, but this change is alarming and considering the frequency with which my character gets knocked unconscious or almost unconscious with a stun cap that's 30 points higher, I would consider it darn near unplayable if her cap was made even lower just so she could use some of her guild's primary useful skills.

Because like using the Way, using these skills constitutes a distraction.   So you might as well use the same penalty with these skills now that the delay has been taken.

[Fathi]

Edit edit again: Can I ask why the changes to stun caps were implemented? I'm seriously not just trying to whine here, but this change is alarming and considering the frequency with which my character gets knocked unconscious or almost unconscious with a stun cap that's 30 points higher, I would consider it darn near unplayable if her cap was made even lower just so she could use some of her guild's primary useful skills.

Because like using the Way, using these skills constitutes a distraction.   So you might as well use the same penalty with these skills now that the delay has been taken.

I don't think a change to somebody's stun cap is a fair coded representation of being distracted.

Basically, I don't see how concentrating on being more perceptive and aware of one's surroundings somehow makes one more more susceptible to getting KOed.

[Morgenes]

Dalmeth's response covers our reasoning fairly well.  Using all of these abilities require a constant mental attention, and so the stun drain is the best way to represent this.

[Fathi]

I think that this is a good example of a situation where I agree with the reasoning behind it but not how it was implemented.

All I'm saying is that I believe this is an iffy decision from a playability standpoint and I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.

[Is Friday]

You begin watching the area carefully.

You notice something rustling in the bushes.

Something springs out at you, and you see it springing out at you, because you're being watchful!

You get knocked out in one punch by beastie because you were being too cautious.

[Dalmeth]

All I'm saying is that I believe this is an iffy decision from a playability standpoint and I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.

I think the penalties are a little too steep, but either way, we're going to have to use these abilities more sparingly than what we have come to know and love.  I honestly like the fact I'm going to have to drop scan and listen if I want to use the Way while I'm riding.

You begin watching the area carefully.

You notice something rustling in the bushes.

Something springs out at you, and you see it springing out at you, because you're being watchful!

You get knocked out in one punch by beastie because you were being too cautious.

Them's the breaks.  Don't you know that searching makes you vulnerable?

Now if we could watch something hidden with a greater chance of success, I'd be tickled pink.  Better yet if I could do this from a distance.

[Space Ace]

I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.

Such as?

I'm not entirely convinced that this update will cause a slew of one-shot-KO's.  I am curious, though, if the stun penalty is removed in combat since the skill isn't effective in combat.   If so, then combat means that my PC starts at a stun disadvantage but if he's skilled enough can regenerate back to his full potential while focussing his attention on the fight.

[Fathi]

I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.

Such as?

Slower regen of stun points.

Penalties to certain skills, especially skills that requre a lot of mental rather than physical concentration (contact, barrier, complex crafts).

Penalties to listen and scan when your character is not at their most alert, though I think this might already be in place.

A chance to have listen and scan broken by certain events that startle or surprise your character.

Having listen and scan success/fail depend on your enivronment and the amount of distractions in the room.



I just disagree with stun points being the best medium with which to express distraction. Stun points, as they function codedly, seem to be more a measurement of consciousness and mental endurance as far as using psychic powers and sustaining head injuries--it does not make much sense to me to use them as a way to express being distracted when they serve all these other functions.

Basically what it boils down to is I fail to see why concentrating on being more observant of your surroundings should make your character more susceptible to head injuries and being knocked unconscious. It seems like a poorly-chosen correlation of code entities.

[mansa]

I really like STUN being taken into affect in more than just PSIONICs.

two thumbs up!

[Lizzie]

This doesn't look right - -10 for guard, scan, and listen = -30 stun points. There are people who only -have- 80 stun points - if they have barrier up too, that means -40 or worse. And that isn't even when you're in combat. That means your *maximum* stun points would be set to only 40, if you already have sucky stun to begin with.

A well trained guard is -trained- to do these things well. Why should they get -any- penalty at all for it? I can understand if it started out that way, and you could "train" it off so that eventually you don't get a penalty. But I can't see any logic, or any playability at all, or any point, in taking off 10 stun points for each of these things, -especially- when it's common to use all of them simutaneously. It's like you're punishing people who have a skill, for having a skill.

[Solifugid]

Just curious, does the stun point cost apply to NPC guards as well?

[Morgenes]

Just curious, does the stun point cost apply to NPC guards as well?

yes

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Morgenes,

The changes are awesome. The stun costs hurt. Would you consider making the costs scalable, so that at the upper ranges of skill, they cost less? Perhaps (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch) at beginning levels, which I'll assume are 1-5 for non-subguild skills, could become (-5 for guard, scan, and listen and -1 for watch) at the upper tiers of ability.

I think this would help a great deal with the reality of the situation, and would indicate that the better you become, the less intentional attention you pay and the more it becomes second nature.

[Morgenes]

Morgenes,

The changes are awesome. The stun costs hurt. Would you consider making the costs scalable, so that at the upper ranges of skill, they cost less? Perhaps (-10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch) at beginning levels, which I'll assume are 1-5 for non-subguild skills, could become (-5 for guard, scan, and listen and -1 for watch) at the upper tiers of ability.

I think this would help a great deal with the reality of the situation, and would indicate that the better you become, the less intentional attention you pay and the more it becomes second nature.

That's certainly a possibility and it makes sense.  I briefly contemplated something like that when I started this, but discarded it to get this done.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Cool beans. I dig the direction you are going, without question. I do want to just make a tiny observation, though.

Warriors have been changed quite a bit with the various changes you have been making recently. In fact, probably all combat classes have been changed a lot, and basically had a good deal more complication stacked on them. And I'm not really saying this is bad, yet.

But I think it might be a good idea to even out a few things across all classes. Some classes never worry about armor, and have various skills and spells to accomplish what mundanes are now having to spend chunks of stamina and stun to do. Maybe this is what you are intending, to make karma classes even more scary and deadly in combat. Maybe it's not.

But it's something that you should know, if you don't already. Don't get me wrong. I am one of the most adamant about making things realistic, and all of these recent changes have been along that line, and it's awesome as hell. I probably suggested stamina drain for combat skills before anybody else even thought about it. I just don't want so many things to stack up on mundanes that we can't face challenges, not only PC wise, but the challenges you Staff like to throw at us in RPTs and storylines that deal with physical conflict.

While we are on the topic, sneaking and hiding should probably evolve with these changes as well, and also do stun degradation, hmm?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hrm, it also occurs to me that fixing bandage to be more realistic would be good too. Instead of the monster fail, just failing to do anything but stop the bleeding would be a nice change. And it would barely involve any code work. Just a message change, and a number change, I believe.

[number13]

Appreciate the change of listen to be a toggle.

The idea that a person who's paying attention to his surroundings is easier to sap is a teeny bit strange to me.

Perhaps the effort to maintain listen/scan/guard/watch (and perhaps sneak/hide as well) could be modeled as a steady drain to MV, with NPCs excluded so that there's no worry about having to figure out how make NPC guards rest up.  Tavern-sitting with listen on might not be all that relaxing, so it could make sense if the MV regen from sitting is canceled out with the MV drain from easedroping.

[Yokunama]

I think there would be better ways to code this distraction without ending in a scenario that ends with a lot of people having stun caps low enough that they willl be KOed by a single punch to the head.

Such as?

Slower regen of stun points.

Penalties to certain skills, especially skills that requre a lot of mental rather than physical concentration (contact, barrier, complex crafts).

Penalties to listen and scan when your character is not at their most alert, though I think this might already be in place.

A chance to have listen and scan broken by certain events that startle or surprise your character.

Having listen and scan success/fail depend on your enivronment and the amount of distractions in the room.



I just disagree with stun points being the best medium with which to express distraction. Stun points, as they function codedly, seem to be more a measurement of consciousness and mental endurance as far as using psychic powers and sustaining head injuries--it does not make much sense to me to use them as a way to express being distracted when they serve all these other functions.

Basically what it boils down to is I fail to see why concentrating on being more observant of your surroundings should make your character more susceptible to head injuries and being knocked unconscious. It seems like a poorly-chosen correlation of code entities.

I am with Fathi on this one, and I have been mentioning something like this in the last thread (Lowering the success the of scan and listen to some degree during combat). All the proposed ideas seem interesting and in balance with the with the game.

[fourTwenty]

So, since Guard/Scan/listen is now a toggle, and since they don't work while fighting, the stun penalties also stop (meaning my stun will begin to go back up not being affected by the skill in use) while fighting right? Just checking?

[Morgenes]

So, since Guard/Scan/listen is now a toggle, and since they don't work while fighting, the stun penalties also stop (meaning my stun will begin to go back up not being affected by the skill in use) while fighting right? Just checking?

I believe that Space Ace suggested that earlier, that's not the way it's coded today.

[Clearsighted]

I find the idea of being at -20 stun just for having scan and listen up to be well...incredibly unnecessary. With respect, neither do I find Dalmeth's explanation that it is because doing such is 'distracting' to be remotely sufficient.

I can see how contacting someone or having a barrier up can be mentally exhausting. But scan and listen is supposed to represent being more wary and more alert, and those that get these skills are basically already weak enough as it is. Indeed, being alert is supposed to be a boon, not a liability. So all it really does is help warriors with bludgeoning weapons who don't scan or listen anyways.

I do like the rest of the changes. But only because it's better that they're being suppressed rather than completely dropped and having to be put back on. If I were being entirely honest, I'd rather everything stayed as it was a week ago. But that's neither here nor there, so given that staff has decided to change it, I'm reasonably okay with the change. However,  I can't think of any reason to include a cumulative -20 to -30 stun penalty. And even if it were necessary, is too high, and I do not find the reasoning behind implementing it to be in the least compelling, which troubles me further.

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that ever since the barrier change going through early, there's been a certain 'impetuous' feel to the changes being made. And I think this -stun penalty is something that needs to be re-examined, or at least better justified.

Perhaps it would have been better to leave it the way it was, until a more nuanced way of penalizing it (if it must be penalized) can be coded up. A -20 to -30 stun is just too devastating, for whats supposed to be skills designed to keep you alive.

[musashi]

The -10 penalty does seem a bit severe to me I admit, though I do like the direction the coded changes moved in.
To me it always felt like using the way should be vastly more distracting/draining on someone than any mundane ability would be, so if possible, I think it would be a better idea to scale that -10 penalty per skill being used, down to like -5, or -3 or something.

I may be off base, but I think everyone could swallow that with a lot less of an issue.

[Qzzrbl]

One would think that these skills would drain stam, rather than stun.

A "distraction", or paying close attention to the world around you, I think, wouldn't necessarily soak up all of your precious consciousness juice, would it?

What if your character is concentrating -reaaaaly- hard on something... By the logic of listen/scan = -stun, then would it be possible for a character to knock himself out from just thinking really hard?