watch/scan/listen/guard changes

[musashi]

Well, to be completely in line with the current situation (where it's taking away from your max, not draining it), I have to say no ... he won't knock himself out by thinking really hard.

However, if he thinks hard enough, a slight breeze against the temple could be all it takes to push him over the edge.

[Clearsighted]

One would think that these skills would drain stam, rather than stun.

A "distraction", or paying close attention to the world around you, I think, wouldn't necessarily soak up all of your precious consciousness juice, would it?

What if your character is concentrating -reaaaaly- hard on something... By the logic of listen/scan = -stun, then would it be possible for a character to knock himself out from just thinking really hard?

I always thought it was clear that stun was a measure of your 'mental' reserve. Hence its utility in maintaining consciousness, or with psionics. So seeing it bleed over into something like, listening, scanning or guarding someone, was doubly surprising.

[Bushranger]

I'm usually willing to go along with code changes, but this one does indeed suck Muk Utep's Hairy Impotent Balls. Adding a stun cap to Scan, Listen and Guard makes little sense especially with such high numbers.

Does it really make sense that just because I guard someone it is easier to knock me out? Or should I not guard someone and just use rescue so that if my charge is attacked I am at fighting strength to defend them?

Are you going to add a stun cap to crafting? Because that requires one to focus thier concentration on what they are trying to create.

Are you going to add a stun cap to haggling? Because that requires one to focus their concentration on what they are doing to get the best price for their wares.

Having just had to guard someone on a trip through the desert, I lost 30 stun following orders to scan, listen and guard. This really doesn't make sense to me.

Especially concerning rangers, and other perception heavy guilds, this is not something that is conducive to play. Rangers are supposed to be more perceptive because they suck at combat already, so who had the idea to make them suck more so they can do the things that they are supposed to do? If you want this to feel realistic then lower the cap to stun (5 should be ample) or change the cap to Stamina. I can see rangers and other perception based guilds, moving more cautiously when they are intently observing the area.

As it stands it doesn't feel like a code change to make things work 'as expected' but rather it feels like a huge nerf because someone got annoyed that players were bitching about the changes made to another skill. I'm sure this is not the case, but that is what it feels like.

[brytta.leofa]

We appreciate the work you're continuing to do on the 1.Arm codebase, Morg.  *elbows people*

I could see justification for spreading the guard and scan penalties between stun and movement, rather than stun alone.  Doing those while moving along would seem to require a little more effort-- how do you guard someone while moving down a crowded street, say?

[Bushranger]

Yes, I do appreciate that Morgenes is still working on the Arm.1 codebase.

No, I do not agree that changing Stun/Listen/Guard with a reduction to survivability because people were bitching that they stopped working when engaged in melee combat was a good thing.

Could I be happy with the changes if they were not so harsh, or capped things that were more belivable, yes. Yes I could.

[brytta.leofa]

Yes, I do appreciate
No, I do not agree
Could I be happy

YOU WERE VEHEMENT, MAN! YOU WERE VEHEMENT! 

But yeah, the cumulative stun loss potential scares me a little, too.  I mean, just having psionic skills active in a dangerous area scared me before.

[staggerlee]

My understanding was that this was a compromise, rather than having them removed entirely by combat.
With that in mind... I don't see how it's the end of the world.  Nobody is forcing you to have every skill toggled on all the time.

[musashi]

Either way they could use a bit of touching up. I've filed two bugs related to them already.

[Bushranger]

I was perfectly happy not having them up during combat.

The problem is, for rangers who are supposed to be perceptive when out hunting, this makes doing that a lot more dangerous. Toggling it off before combat is fine, but the lowered stun is still there until it slowly goes back up and there isn't always time to wait before what you just saw by being perceptive is upon you.

I just really disagree with penalizing a guilds important skills because there was a lot of bitching about it not working during combat. Having it turn off during melee was perfectly fine.

[musashi]

Eh ... I would like having them go off for combat and come back on automatically, but not cap stun at all ... I think that would have been a fair trade between the people who wanted them (along with everything else under the sun) to go off when melee combat occured because "It's life and death and you can't think of anything else except the person you're fighting no matter what!!!!" (-It's possible those folks have never actually been in melee combat before.) and the people who were of the opinion that "If you're well trained you can have mortal combat while scanning all possible areas for all possible threats at all possible times in all possible situations!!!!" (-Perhaps even more likely that those people haven't ever been in actual combat.).

To me it feels like balance was a little to the left ... now it's gone a bit to the right, but I was hoping for the middle.

But all that aside, I'm really happy that the Arm.1 code is still being worked on, and that Morgenes is cranking out all these changes in response to player feedback.

[a strange shadow]

I am too hungover for a long eloquent response, but max stun penalties for scan, listen, and guard are not something I agree with at all. I was coming around to the changes for combat guilds who are fighting, but playability concerns and my hatred for spam were behind the desire to see it adjusted so that the abilities were only dampened during combat. I am pleased and grateful that those changes were made.  I can't fathom why it was additionally necessary to penalize stun. With all due respect, it feels like a "gee whiz" idea that was put through without much consideration as to how it would make life more difficult for mundane combat characters, just like the original changes to scan/listen were put through without any testing first - and we found out that it was a less than ideal fix.

Can we put the brakes on and start considering a) showing some love for mundane combat characters instead of constantly making life harder and more dangerous for them, b) how the changes might affect playability for those who run them?

I don't want to see Ranger D Dead get <insert spell here> off a cliff and get knocked out only because they were scanning and listening for <insert mage here>, while mister Warrior B Bad gets banged up but stays awake, even though he was less alert to the dangers inherent.

Seriously, must every change to mundane characters further gimp their defenses against a mage?

[Is Friday]

I'd be more fond of a constant drain that worked essentially like the way, in that the more skilled you are at "watching", the less it'd effect you--but even at higher levels, you're still losing a point or two every once and a while--but with no lowered stun cap.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'd be more fond of a constant drain that worked essentially like the way, in that the more skilled you are at "watching", the less it'd effect you--but even at higher levels, you're still losing a point or two every once and a while--but with no lowered stun cap.

In my opinion, that's worse because you can knock yourself out without even noticing.

Looking at it, now, I'm okay with the changes. It sucks but makes sense.

Don't wanna get knocked out? GET BETTER!

[Bushranger]

People keep trying to justify things by saying: Get better.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've only branched twice in over ten years of playing this game. Once from a spell caster that I spam cast for awhile in the tempe and felt really twinky about doing.

Am I playing things wrong by not spam hunting everything I come across, and spamming skills to try and get better?

[Jingo]

People keep trying to justify things by saying: Get better.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've only branched twice in over ten years of playing this game. Once from a spell caster that I spam cast for awhile in the tempe and felt really twinky about doing.

Am I playing things wrong by not spam hunting everything I come across, and spamming skills to try and get better?

Sometimes I feel that there is an entire sub-game to this game that everybody knows about except me.

[FantasyWriter]

I like the change, but think the penalty should be lowered for characters with a higher level of skill.

[Lizzie]

Get better at what? Morgenes said there's a -10 penalty to max stun for certain things. He didn't say "it's dependent on whether or not you're any good at it, or if you get better." It's -10, per skill, period. No matter how good you are with listen or scan, no matter whether or not you're a ranger with uber listen and scan, you will get -10 on EACH, when it's running.

Getting better won't change this. After having experienced this change first hand with a character who -should- be perfectly capable of chewing gum and walking while noticing something lurking close and overhearing my two closest (physically) buddies whispering about the snot hanging off my nose, all at the same time, my opinion hasn't has only changed for the worse. I still think this stun cap is just wrong, on many levels. I don't feel it is appropriate under any circumstance, not even if it gets "better" after awhile - which it presently doesn't.

[Gimfalisette]

Also, it seems to me like the opportunity for actually improving one's scan skill is significantly nerfed with these changes. Now, with scan being toggleable, apparently it can't fail to be turned on. Thus the only way to improve is to fail to see hidden things around oneself. For city-based characters, this may or may not be easy to do...whereas with listen being purely toggleable and non-failable to turn on, everyone CAN tavern-sit and skill it up. Likewise there tend to be plenty of opportunities to practice watch.

And I do not agree with the stun lowering being -10 per skill. That adds up to about 30% of stun capacity for a typical mundane combat type. Way, way, way too much, Morg.

[Jingo]

Can we put the brakes on and start considering a) showing some love for mundane combat characters instead of constantly making life harder and more dangerous for them, b) how the changes might affect playability for those who run them?

This. Where has the love been since the reel and defence changes?

Adding all of these features to the game is nice except that they keep making the game progressivly more difficult to play.

It is still much much easier to play a warrior in the wilderness than it is to play a ranger.

[Gimfalisette]

Also, I think that with these skills affecting stun, they should be listed under the "stat" command thusly:

Code Select Expand

You are affected by:
   Psionic Barrier, Listen, Scan


[brytta.leofa]

It's -10, per skill, period.

Make it -10*(1 - pctSkill), with a 3-4 point slow-moving random variation to limit percentage-sniffing.

[Gimfalisette]

Also, you should be able to do "scan status" while not standing, which is now not possible.

[X-D]

I like that Morg is working on the game.

I agree with anybody, Fathi ETC who says that decreased stun cap is not the right way to go about this.

I think the reduced stun regen for scan/listen is the better way to go and some sort of hit to stam for watch/guard.

[fourTwenty]

I would like to start by saying that I think these things should affect stamina. Not stun. <--This seems to make more sense.

We appreciate the work you're continuing to do on the 1.Arm codebase, Morg.  *elbows people*

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. Thank you Morg for not writing this game off as done, we still enjoy it very much.

Can we put the brakes on and start considering a) showing some love for mundane combat characters instead of constantly making life harder and more dangerous for them, b) how the changes might affect playability for those who run them?


Seriously, must every change to mundane characters further gimp their defenses against a mage?

This makes a hella lotta sense.

My understanding was that this was a compromise, rather than having them removed entirely by combat.
With that in mind... I don't see how it's the end of the world.  Nobody is forcing you to have every skill toggled on all the time.

You did not think this out at all. The bolded part is quite often exactly what's happening. And for others, even if not being forced to, these skills are what help them not die because they suck at all forms of combat. And seeing as how these skills stop working during combat how is that a compromise?

People keep trying to justify things by saying: Get better.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've only branched twice in over ten years of playing this game. Once from a spell caster that I spam cast for awhile in the tempe and felt really twinky about doing.

Am I playing things wrong by not spam hunting everything I come across, and spamming skills to try and get better?

Yes, apparently we've been doing it wrong. This RP thing is what they tell us dumbass newbs so that we waste or time while everybody else maxes out their skills and make us easier to PK when they get bored. (I know, I know. But it does feel like this sometimes)

We appreciate the work you're continuing to do on the 1.Arm codebase, Morg.  *elbows people*

I wanted to repeat htis one so that everyone can keep their priorities in order.

[FuSoYa]

Also, I think that with these skills affecting stun, they should be listed under the "stat" command thusly:

Code Select Expand

You are affected by:
   Psionic Barrier, Listen, Scan


I think this is absolutely necessary with the new changes.  As for the numbers... yea it's pretty rough but it's playable.  Perhaps I'm just not in those deadly knock-out situations enough with my last few characters. 

Also, you are amazing Morgenes.  Truly doing great things with Armageddon and I know that I appreciate your work and the incredible speed of your updates.

Plus the fact that you listen to the playerbase and respond is just amazing.

Brandon