watch/scan/listen/guard changes

[Morgenes]

I haven't been able to play much, but the reduced costs for scan and listen border on ridiculous, even at high levels.  Couldn't we up them both to around 5 stun loss so I actually get the impression my character is exerting himself?

As you wish

[Bilanthri]

So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...

[Morgenes]

So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...

Yes, back up to a middle ground, which I agree is better.  I think the new numbers will give it a little more teeth at upper levels, which is where we were seeing the issue.

[Clearsighted]

So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...

Yes, back up to a middle ground, which I agree is better.  I think the new numbers will give it a little more teeth at upper levels, which is where we were seeing the issue.

No, please no. It was perfect as it was. I couldn't disagree more with Dalmeth. A single flippant comment from a single person who hasn't even played much should not be an immediate reason for change. The stun costs as they are, are just about right.

So after all these posts about the pains of such weighty costs, and the tweeking down of them to suit the vast majority of posters, we're headed back up again? Bummer...

Dalmeth was the first (and only) guy to defend the original big -10 drop, who everyone disagreed with, whereupon it was changed. Now that it is changed, he is the first one, while admitting he hasn't played much, who calls for it to be raised again. I think we should definitely wait to see how everyone else reacts.

[Is Friday]

I definitely like the way that reductions works now. It's much more in line with how the rest of the skills work.

[a strange shadow]

FWIW, the reduced costs as they currently stand (at upper skill levels) are the only reason I'm not stil frothing at the mouth over being penalized in stun. It is still noticeable, especially if you don't have a good roll and every point counts.

I still move for a stam drop or to get rid of the penalty entirely.

[UnderSeven]

I was thinking listen should work better when you're watching your target, that way you can see their lips moving.  This doesn't seem to be the way it currently works.

Also it would be nice if we could check the status of all three at once, or even have it added to stat.  You might have a stun rate somewehre cause you failed to remember having listen and scan on.

[fourTwenty]

I still move for a stam drop or to get rid of the penalty entirely.

Stamina drop still makes a bit more sense than Stun.
Yet I defer this one to the Staff and players who've been around much longer as it seems that this will have different repercussions across the scale.

[UnderSeven]

I still move for a stam drop or to get rid of the penalty entirely.

Stamina drop still makes a bit more sense than Stun.
Yet I defer this one to the Staff and players who've been around much longer as it seems that this will have different repercussions across the scale.

Stun drop makes perfect sense. 

Stun is what we pay for mental skills (the way)

Stamina for physical skills.

They are all four mental skills, you're not just listening, you're parsing what is noise and what is important information, infact more likely parsing than listening your ears afterall, always work.

Scan you're not just looking, youre actively taking in informatoin, shadows here or there, weird variations in what you see.  Once again your eyes always see stuff scan is adding your brain to the equation actively.

Same for watch and guard.

Stun makes sense, perfect sense.

[a strange shadow]

Yes, I see that logic.

But answer me this: does it make sense to be more susceptible to getting knocked out because you're paying attention to your surroundings?

[Melody]

Scan/watch/listen and sometimes you have to use barrier on top of it too.

It is such a big drop in stun point! I think the system as it is is fine. People who have not logged on much to test out the code in practice should try it out before suggesting ideas to make life more difficult for others.

I mean, with the slow, slow, slow way scan and listen will be improving, higher skills should enjoy lower stun cost. Anyone who lived through the monotone of skill improving while rped it decently should not be too severely penalized for their efforts.

[UnderSeven]

Does it make more sense that you are more easily knocked out because you're using the way?  

No, in either case it doesn't make sense.  You can have someone hit you in the foot over and over and eventually die to just foot injuries with a club.

Stun, HP and ST all three stats are taking a wide array of things into account and trying to place them into three little catigories? Is it perfect? No, Will it ever be? No.  But I'd say it's reasonably as close as we can expect to get right now.

Isee your arguement, but we generalize on this game.  Life is too complicated to capture in code without doing so.

This just being my views.

[a strange shadow]

Does it make more sense that you are more easily knocked out because you're using the way?

Yes, it does, it reflects intense mental focus on something inward (not outward). Use of the brain to contact another mind. You can pass out from it. There is a constant stun drain.That seems very intentional to me.

Watching your surroundings for that braxat should not mean it has an easier time bopping you over the head.

[UnderSeven]

Okay then I think we're splitting hairs.  Either way we're talking about mental focus that makes your mind less able to keep itself conscious.  My experience playinng with these features is the actual loss of Stun is negligable at best.  I lose single digit stun points, not even close to double digits.  So if we're going to call them both mental strain and the way intense (where a single way easily takes double digits stun) and scan (taking a small fraction of that) then I don't see the problem here?

Maybe it's a question of how good you are with the skill in which case the question might be further an arguement about is someone new to something like scanning needing that much more mental power?  I can only see what my char sees, but the stun losses I experience are so low that they're not even factored into myy play, even if I stack these skills on top of each other.

The point and I hope I havn't gotten too ic, is that if we both agree that it is a mental strain, but your arguement is that you are easier to knock out, I would have to politely disagree.  The stun loss to my experience is negligable at best.

[UnderSeven]

Actually I take it back.

I agree with you on one point.

Watch shouldn't be taking stun in all cases, either watch needs more love in what it does or it needs to not take stun. Seriously.  Watch west?  All it does and I mean ALL it does is saves you the trouble of spamming look west over and over and over and over again.  That shouldn't be taking stun, I agree.  Watching an individual should, watching a direction should not.

[a strange shadow]

I think we can agree on some things and split hairs on others, you're right.

The thing is that when this first went in, I was losing 20 points just scanning/listening. I hate to think of those rangers who are asked to guard and/or barrier their minds when outdoors ON TOP of trying to be alert. You're talking a loss of 35, 45 stun. It was adjusted to lower the costs depending on skill, and I came around to the idea (though I still don't like it). It was manageable, if distasteful. Now there's talk of bumping the stun loss up again.

That is what I strongly disagree with. Can we leave well enough alone?

[Clearsighted]

Does it make more sense that you are more easily knocked out because you're using the way?  

No, in either case it doesn't make sense.  You can have someone hit you in the foot over and over and eventually die to just foot injuries with a club.

Stun, HP and ST all three stats are taking a wide array of things into account and trying to place them into three little catigories? Is it perfect? No, Will it ever be? No.  But I'd say it's reasonably as close as we can expect to get right now.

Isee your arguement, but we generalize on this game.  Life is too complicated to capture in code without doing so.

This just being my views.

Well. It DOES make more sense that you can be knocked out by using the Way because the Way is an immense mental output of energy at the limit of evolution for most.

Being more alert to your surroundings should not facilitate being knocked out easier.

Frankly, I am shocked that this discussion still continues, considering how reasonable, elegant and fair, it's current implementation is. It retained a stun drop, but made it mostly overcome-able by the expertly skilled.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

... applying a -1 to all skills that stacks with each mode of attention the PC engaging in.

These numbers, -10 for guard, scan, and listen and -5 for watch regarding stun, would become these numbers, -2 for guard, scan, and listen and -1 for watch, regarding all skills. This does mean that if you are guarding, scanning, and listening, you will suffer -6 to both these skills and every other skill you use during this period.

I'm still pretty sure that this is not only more playable, but still manages to convey the strain on you when doing things like scanning, hiding, listen, etc.

[Bilanthri]

The idea that a player with high skills is annoyed that they can do all their, now reflexive, skills without much penalty is ridiculous. If you want to get penalized, make a newbie. The point of low penalties at high skill is to reflect the mastery of the skill.
I understand that new code tweaks are something interesting to experience, but asking for it to suck more for new characters so that your Master can experiences the code change kinda.....well, sucks.

[KIA]

These tweaks are getting kind of 'weird'. I'm not fully understanding the ultimate direction here, possibly.

Also I'll repeat: When we're watching someone, could we make it so we can see if they start watching someone else?


Hell, it'd be cool (but not necessary, just cool) to even see whether they are scanning, guarding, or at high levels of watch, even when they seem to start listening.

Yours truly,

KIA

[Dalmeth]

Watching your surroundings for that braxat should not mean it has an easier time bopping you over the head.

You really are thinking about this all wrong.  Consider this : try reading four about four hours straight without rest and see how clear-headed you are then.  You've almost certainly done an all night study session.  What we're talking about is far more work than  reading.

Besides, a person who isn't too good at being alert actually places themselves in a more vulnerable position to get bopped on the head.  A person just going about their business not only tends to move at a faster speed but also tends to be less predictable.  Listen now affects sneaky attacks, so those spending that extra effort to be alert now have a real combat advantage.  Where there once was no real defense against sneaky attacks, now you have an advantage.  Relish in it.

I want a reasonable penalty because it's realistic.  It requires strategy to use correctly.  Too much in this game is given clean and without penalty.  If I have to take a hit with my characters until other parts of the game are set to right, then so be it.

The only other change that's needed is the way listen is broken on standing up.  It doesn't make sense that you'd suddenly close off your senses upon standing up.  This needs to be fixed.

[Lakota]

A derail, though this relates to the stun costs being attributed to skills:

Since stun loss is now reflected based upon how well your actual skill is with listen/scan, could we have the same idea implemented for barrier/contact? Perhaps have the max stun cap loss lower depending on how well your barrier skill is, while regarding contact, have less and less stun be sapped per 'way' as you progress in skill?

[Lizzie]

"Way drain" already works that way for contact/barrier Lakota. Unless you're asking for the "max stun" to rise closer to normal with skill increases?

As for realism, I disagree with Dalmeth on this, with a couple of very specific points. Using your example, the reader who has been reading for four hours, and finally puts his book down, will certainly have a little mental drain, and take a moment to reacquaint himself with his surroundings. However, he won't have to do that, within the first five minutes of picking the book UP to read it in the first place. Unfortunately, the game code doesn't accommodate that. Your character's "visual acuity" will be the same within the first second of toggling on those listen/scan/watch/barrier skills, as they will after an hour, assuming they're still running after that hour. There will be no gradual drain. The drain and max stun drop begins the very second you toggle it, and ends when it wears off or when you turn it off.

That is -not- realistic, and what's worse, it isn't even fun for fantasy, which isn't intended to be realistic. It doesn't make IC sense, and it is far more annoying, than it is playable. I really wouldn't like to see the code changed such that the longer you have those skills running, the more "tired" mentally you get. But if you want "realism," then that is what you should be shooting for. Not an increased stun drop at the start of the use of the skill.

[Lakota]

"Way drain" already works that way for contact/barrier Lakota. Unless you're asking for the "max stun" to rise closer to normal with skill increases?

Yar, you got it. Guess I wasn't clear enough.

[UnderSeven]

I still want to harp on Watch a little here.

I think Watch shouldn't be considered the same skill if you're using it on a person or if you're using it on a direction.

Lets consider.  On a person it might make certain skills easier, it might make certain skills harder and it might make it possible for you to notice stuff.  I don't know for sure, I'm sure this is a find out ic situation, but all and all, it does a lot of neat stuff.

Now watch on a direction.  It will tell you if something in that direction changes, but not ANYTHING you couldn't find out anyway by typing look in that direction, infact you might learn more if you spam look in a direction because changes to ldesc doesn't for instance, come up on watch.  Finally add the fact you can't scan and watch a direction, orr watch more than one direction (while you can spam looking in all directions manually) and you have a "skill" that is doing almost nothing for the price of what it would of been doing had you had it on a person.

I think watch in a direction needs to do more.  A lot more.  I think in addition to giving us the benefit of changes in that direction, it should tell us little things in that direction too.  Maybe emotes that occur? Maybe tell us when people are talking (even if it doesn't tell us what they are saying) Boost listen for that direction, make certain things, ranged attacks from that direction a lot less likely to hit.  So on and so fourth.

Maybe it does some of these things already, but I doubt it.

I also think watching a person, if it doesn't already, shoudl probably boost chances of listen on that person succeeding.

End rant.