My two sids...
Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.
Asshats.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 12:15:55 AM
My two sids...
Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.
Asshats.
It's not just for rich people. If it was, it wouldn't be 5 rooms from the gates and right next to the stable.
You know, because stables smell like shit.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 12:15:55 AM
My two sids...
Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.
Asshats.
His Sanctuary isn't just for the rich or the Chosen. It's for anyone with proper Tuluki manners who wish to sit and have decent conversation.
It's like the Bard's Barrel in 'Nak used to be, just in a wider degree.
Quote from: Kiri on September 30, 2008, 01:42:24 AM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 12:15:55 AM
My two sids...
Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.
Asshats.
His Sanctuary isn't just for the rich or the Chosen. It's for anyone with proper Tuluki manners who wish to sit and have decent conversation.
It's like the Bard's Barrel in 'Nak used to be, just in a wider degree.
Ayup. I agree, although I tend to have my characters frequent the tembo tooth just because I like the gritty room description ... and you know ... I hate actually seeing other PC's in the game and would rather play solo 100% of the time.
Quote from: Yam on September 30, 2008, 12:17:43 AM
It's not just for rich people. If it was, it wouldn't be 5 rooms from the gates and right next to the stable.
You know, because stables smell like shit.
You are being humerous? If you are, that was funny.
If you arent, my reply is that the stables are a couple of squares from the Sanctuary and one may consider the size of a square to be 100 yards or more...so, a couple of hundred yards from the stables and thus not a henderance.
Quote from: Kiri on September 30, 2008, 01:42:24 AM
His Sanctuary isn't just for the rich or the Chosen. It's for anyone with proper Tuluki manners who wish to sit and have decent conversation.
Anyone with proper Tuluki manners would realize you dont go to the Sanctuary unless you are properly dressed to be in such a social setting.
I dont go to a five star restaurant dressed in cut-off jean shorts and a wife beater, with flipflops on.
Do not go to the Sanctuary, if you have proper Tuluki manners, dressed in your smelly sandcloth or armor.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 09:23:10 AM
Ayup. I agree, although I tend to have my characters frequent the tembo tooth just because I like the gritty room description ... and you know ... I hate actually seeing other PC's in the game and would rather play solo 100% of the time.
If we could get all of the blood-spattered dwarves, worthless halfbreeds hunters, and tattered cloth-wearing scoundrels out of the Sanctuary, and into the Tooth or Freil's pub...You would actually have people to play with in other taverns.
I've had a couple of pc's now, who have felt that the different bars were not necessarily for different people, but rather for different purposes.
Bars are for getting drunk at.
I could be wrong.
Maybe it makes perfect fucking sense for blood-spattered smelly hunters and fully armored mercenaries to spend their days sitting in the ritzy Sanctuary.
Or maybe, those people should get the fuck out.
A certain clan in game actually has a rule about its lower ranking members visiting the Sanctuary. They arent allowed in the Sanctuary, because the Sanctuary is designed for upper-class folks.
Agree with Desertman. I don't look twice at elves, dwarves, warriors or what-have-you in the Sanc unless they're dripping blood or covered in tunnel-shit. The Sanctuary is THE major meeting place in Tuluk. Thieves go there to get registered. Commoners meet with their patrons. It is an establishment that you would expect to see a wide variety of citizens in. But... read the room description. The place is pretty swanky, with its marble floor and fancy tables. If you walk in there with nothing but a loincloth (ahem, Desertman) or you're purging massive quantities of blood all over the seating, you will get the stinkeye.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 12:07:28 PM
If we could get all of the blood-spattered dwarves, worthless halfbreeds hunters, and tattered cloth-wearing scoundrels out of the Sanctuary, and into the Tooth or Freil's pub...You would actually have people to play with in other taverns.
The way to get people to play in other taverns isn't to arbitrarily declare that one group goes here, another goes there. It's for the PCs in the city to actually, y'know, USE the other taverns. Nobles and templars can frequent the Tooth, or the Pub, or the Ghaati...probably not so much the Burrow, but who knows. The certain clan you mentioned that forbids its members from hanging at the Sanc doesn't always necessarily have this rule in force (I've known it to be lifted at times).
Yeah, probably dripping blood on the floor or smelling really, truly bad is not the right thing for the Sanc. But most of the PCs in the Sanc never do fit that description.
I think it's also important to remember the Sanc's historical contribution literally as a refuge for Tulukis during times of crisis. It is the central meeting place for the city for really valid reasons.
I'm fond of seeing who is at the Sanc, then dragging my chosen
victim drinking buddy to whatever other location would be appropriate for the activity we want to pursue: Tea at the Ghaati for nice quiet conversation, the Tooth or the Pub for darts and cheaper drinking, the Tooth because it's got those
booths, or any of them in order to escape someone odious sitting at the bar in the Sanc. Be the change you want to see in Tuluk.
Quote from: Ourla on September 30, 2008, 12:43:35 PM
Agree with Desertman. I don't look twice at elves, dwarves, warriors or what-have-you in the Sanc unless they're dripping blood or covered in tunnel-shit. The Sanctuary is THE major meeting place in Tuluk. Thieves go there to get registered. Commoners meet with their patrons. It is an establishment that you would expect to see a wide variety of citizens in. But... read the room description. The place is pretty swanky, with its marble floor and fancy tables. If you walk in there with nothing but a loincloth (ahem, Desertman) or you're purging massive quantities of blood all over the seating, you will get the stinkeye.
I think you bring up a good point. One of the things to keep in mind about the Sanctuary is that it's much more than just a bar--for example, patronage is an integral part of Tuluki society. If you're a commoner--no matter what stripe of commoner--and you're looking for Chosen or Faithful to perhaps establish a relationship with, you aren't gonna find 'em in the Tooth, usually.
It's not just a meeting place in the sense of a social town-hall type setting; it's also the first step toward doing business with several of Tuluk's higher-class circles.
I do agree that commoners should take their attire (or even just the state of it) into account more often when going there. I personally would not see anything wrong with a warrior/hunter/guard type wearing armour or sandcloth travel gear there. After all, if you're looking for work, advertising your gear is an integral part of advertising yourself--you're showing the resources you've got and how well prepared you are for potential jobs. But I wouldn't wear armour to the Sanctuary if it was covered in guts.
Quote from: Ourla on September 30, 2008, 12:43:35 PM
Agree with Desertman. I don't look twice at elves, dwarves, warriors or what-have-you in the Sanc unless they're dripping blood or covered in tunnel-shit. The Sanctuary is THE major meeting place in Tuluk. Thieves go there to get registered. Commoners meet with their patrons. It is an establishment that you would expect to see a wide variety of citizens in. But... read the room description. The place is pretty swanky, with its marble floor and fancy tables. If you walk in there with nothing but a loincloth (ahem, Desertman) or you're purging massive quantities of blood all over the seating, you will get the stinkeye.
In my defense, I walked in there wearing a loincloth with the exact intention of someone throwing me out on my head, or getting to sit a night in jail.
But because everyone is a fucking ass-hat and thinks the Sanctuary is just another tavern where commoners chill because its a leet and cool, noone even messed with me.
Though I was told to buy some boots before I came back.
Do you know how much raunchy shit I did in there and noone ever once gave me the stinkeye? I was horribly dissapointed.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
The certain clan you mentioned that forbids its members from hanging at the Sanc doesn't always necessarily have this rule in force (I've known it to be lifted at times).
Which is a pathetic shame and the lifter deserves to be beaten by the Commander to within a inch of their life for defiling the sanctity of the clan that I mentioned. But, thats just my opinion.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
Yeah, probably dripping blood on the floor or smelling really, truly bad is not the right thing for the Sanc. But most of the PCs in the Sanc never do fit that description.
If you cant afford water to bathe, which the VAST majority of commoners cant. Or cant afford to waste coins on perfumes, which the VAST majority of commoners cant...Then you probably stink like ass. Around other commoners, it wouldnt be noticeable. Around other upper-crest society members, they would probably be offended by your stench, even if they were too proper to say so.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
I think it's also important to remember the Sanc's historical contribution literally as a refuge for Tulukis during times of crisis. It is the central meeting place for the city for really valid reasons.
The crisis is over, now get your poor ass out of the way, you are smudging the shiny bar and filling the nice wine-scented air with your miserable stink.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:05:00 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
The certain clan you mentioned that forbids its members from hanging at the Sanc doesn't always necessarily have this rule in force (I've known it to be lifted at times).
Which is a pathetic shame and the lifter deserves to be beaten by the Commander to within a inch of their life for defiling the sanctity of the clan that I mentioned. But, thats just my opinion.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
Yeah, probably dripping blood on the floor or smelling really, truly bad is not the right thing for the Sanc. But most of the PCs in the Sanc never do fit that description.
If you cant afford water to bathe, which the VAST majority of commoners cant. Or cant afford to waste coins on perfumes, which the VAST majority of commoners cant...Then you probably stink like ass. Around other commoners, it wouldnt be noticeable. Around other upper-crest society members, they would probably be offended by your stench, even if they were too proper to say so.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
I think it's also important to remember the Sanc's historical contribution literally as a refuge for Tulukis during times of crisis. It is the central meeting place for the city for really valid reasons.
The crisis is over, now get your poor ass out of the way, you are smudging the shiny bar and filling the nice wine-scented air with your miserable stink.
I think that attitude, as you're exemplifying it, is more befitting of Allanak than Tuluk.
There are different expectations in place.
I think that in Tuluk behavior is more critical than social standing when discussing social scene. What you're demanding would make more sense in Allanak.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 12:58:26 PM
Do you know how much raunchy shit I did in there and noone ever once gave me the stinkeye? I was horribly dissapointed.
Well, that's one unfortunate thing about Tuluk. Too often, PCs just neglect to start shit with other PCs in public. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone other than me and maybe one or two others really get offensive in someone's face at the bar in the Sanc. (Err...subtly offensive. Still offensive, though.)
I think it's because people can't figure out how to do it not Nakki-style. Open, loud confrontation is not very Tuluki. What is Tuluki is snide remarks, shaming someone, starting rumors, shunning, etc. But if you just do that stuff, a lot of times the target PC doesn't even notice.
A paraphrase of still my favorite episode of openly insulting someone at the bar in the Sanc:
QuoteStaring at him as he finishes performing, you ask a rival bard, in sirihish: "You -do- know that song doesn't rhyme, or have any discernible rhythm...right?"
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:05:00 PM
The crisis is over, now get your poor ass out of the way, you are smudging the shiny bar and filling the nice wine-scented air with your miserable stink.
There's nothing wrong with smelling like an average commoner in the Sanc. You need to just drop that prejudice. There are many VNPC and NPC commoners in there smelling just the same.
And Tulukis don't ever drop history. You're hugely misunderstanding Tuluk if you overlook the significance of history and tradition to the people. The history of the destruction of Tuluk, the rise of the two villages, then the Allanaki occupation and successful rebellion, is immensely important.
Quote from: Fathi on September 30, 2008, 12:56:38 PM
I think you bring up a good point. One of the things to keep in mind about the Sanctuary is that it's much more than just a bar--for example, patronage is an integral part of Tuluki society. If you're a commoner--no matter what stripe of commoner--and you're looking for Chosen or Faithful to perhaps establish a relationship with, you aren't gonna find 'em in the Tooth, usually.
It's not just a meeting place in the sense of a social town-hall type setting; it's also the first step toward doing business with several of Tuluk's higher-class circles.
I do agree that commoners should take their attire (or even just the state of it) into account more often when going there. I personally would not see anything wrong with a warrior/hunter/guard type wearing armour or sandcloth travel gear there. After all, if you're looking for work, advertising your gear is an integral part of advertising yourself--you're showing the resources you've got and how well prepared you are for potential jobs. But I wouldn't wear armour to the Sanctuary if it was covered in guts.
If a commoner has a meeting with a Chosen or a Faithful and its more convenient for the Chosen of the Faithful for the commoner to come into the ritzy Sanctuary than it is for the Chosen or Faithful to go to the commoner, I have no problem with the commoner being there. They are there by invitation from an individual who is in the right caste to extend such an invitation.
If the character I am playing is sane, and is a commoner, I really dont tend to sit about the Sanctuary wearing my hunter's garb.
The idea of wearing your "hunters gear" or "warrior armor" to the Sanctuary as a way to advertise your skills and abilities in hopes that you will get hired is strikingly similar to...
A Ritzy Country Club
(N,S,E,W)
You are in a fine Country Club. The rooms smells sweet with aromas of the perfumes of the lavishly dressed patrons all about you in their suites and ties and fancy gowns. Foods and wines of a pricey nature are being served at the highly polished and well tended bar and the marble floors shine from their constant tending to bring out thier natural luster.
A well-dressed older male is here, sitting at the highly polished bar having a drink.
The immaculately clean woman is here, sipping a glass of expensive wine at a finely made table.
The sweat-smelling, deeply-tanned construction worker has arrived from the south, a jackhammer slung over his shoulder.
The sweat-smelling, deeply-tanned construction worker says in southern-accented English, pushing his hardhat back up out of his eyes with a stained leather glove, "Aright! I hear tha' Jacob Johnson, owner of Big Time construction drinks here after work. I'm just gonna' sit at the bar, with my jackhammer, until I see him come around. I'm just trying ta' get a job with'm."The idea of hunters and guards sitting at the Sanctuary with ther "equipment" as a means of advertising, is no different.
I think it's also important to remember that we should watch the line between realism and playability.
If only nobles and upper class people went to the Sanctuary we might be dividing the player-base in a way that it isn't big enough to support, and the game might be a wee less fun to play as a result.
Plus, as was mentioned ... if you never have an opportunity to meet and speak with the Chosen, it's hard to get that patron thing going on.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 01:08:35 PM
I think that attitude, as you're exemplifying it, is more befitting of Allanak than Tuluk.
There are different expectations in place.
I think that in Tuluk behavior is more critical than social standing when discussing social scene. What you're demanding would make more sense in Allanak.
If I smell nice and bathe and wear perfume, and some smelly ass construction worker comes and rubs elbows with me at the bar, and he cant even afford a drink in the place, I am going to have thoughts about that fellow.
The first thought being..."WTF is this guy doing here?"
Maybe Tuluki upper-class folks are simply all have golden hearts and dont get offended by lower class commoners assulting their senses, not to mention their sensibilities.
Someone should burn down the Firestorm's Pub.
Again.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 01:17:28 PM
we should watch the line between realism and playability.
Which it should be noted is not exactly Desertman's specialty.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:18:04 PM
Maybe Tuluki upper-class folks are simply all have golden hearts and dont get offended by lower class commoners assulting their senses, not to mention their sensibilities.
Well, yeah...that's not actually incredibly far from the truth, at least from a "political veneer" perspective. Did you not read the rest of the thread, where we talked about things like the historical basis for the patronage system?
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 01:21:40 PM
Which it should be noted is not exactly Desertman's specialty.
Yeah, I have to take that. I do tend to worry about things that actually make sense, more than I worry about how fun it would be to be part of my proposed system. I have a problem with putting playability above realism. Its a curse.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 01:21:40 PM
Well, yeah...that's not actually incredibly far from the truth, at least from a "political veneer" perspective. Did you not read the rest of the thread, where we talked about things like the historical basis for the patronage system?
I played through the entire rebel war, occupation, and liberation.
Not only did I read it, I lived it.
Now, that being said, I understand the concept of the patronage system. I understand why it was implemented and I understand the pretense for which it was aimed.
I also understand human nature. I understand that upper-crest individuals dont really like to sit next to smelly commoners while they drink their expensive wine.
Thats just human nature.
Now, if we want to argue that Tuluki upper-crest citizens all have a natural affinity for the common class and things like..."Standard human emotions in regards to someone that smells like ass."...Do not apply to them as such, well I cant argue with that.
If that is the case, if Tuluki's Richers really do have natural hearts of gold and really dont mind eating their expensive meals while a hunter halfbreed in sweat-stained garb sits next to them...Fuck it, Tuluk just sucks and I am finished with this thread.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:28:13 PM
I also understand human nature. I understand that upper-crest individuals dont really like to sit next to smelly commoners while they drink their expensive wine.
Thats just human nature.
Now, if we want to argue that Tuluki upper-crest citizens all have a natural affinity for the common class and things like..."Standar human emotions in regards to someone that smells like ass."...Do not apply to them as such, well I cant argue with that.
If that is the case, if Tuluki's Richers really do have natural hearts of gold and really dont mind eating their expensive meals while a hunter halfbreed in sweat-stained garb sits next to them...Fuck it, Tuluk just sucks and I am finished with this thread.
Did you miss the part about "political veneer"?
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:28:13 PM
I also understand human nature. I understand that upper-crest individuals dont really like to sit next to smelly commoners while they drink their expensive wine.
Thats just human nature.
Now, if we want to argue that Tuluki upper-crest citizens all have a natural affinity for the common class and things like..."Standar human emotions in regards to someone that smells like ass."...Do not apply to them as such, well I cant argue with that.
If that is the case, if Tuluki's Richers really do have natural hearts of gold and really dont mind eating their expensive meals while a hunter halfbreed in sweat-stained garb sits next to them...Fuck it, Tuluk just sucks and I am finished with this thread.
Did you miss the part about "political veneer"?
No, but regardless of if its an "act" that the upper crest of society follow because they dont want to offend that smelly commoner breed...
The end result is the same. They dont say shit about the breed sitting there ruining their meal with his filthy stink, and as such, the place just crawls with commoners.
Political Veneer, is a scapegoat in lieu of realistic playing.
My Nobles will always act as though they are happy to mix with the commoners, no matter how much they smell, or how disgusting they look, or how crass they speak, because its all part of my political veneer.*Gag*
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:33:16 PM
Political Veneer, is a scapegoat in lieu of realistic playing.
My Nobles will always act as though they are happy to mix with the commoners, no matter how much they smell, or how disgusting they look, or how crass they speak, because I have political veneer.
*Gag*
"Realistic playing" is playing to the docs. The docs are quite clear about Tuluki culture and its underpinnings. Not every place in the Known World is the Gaj, Desertman. I understand that the Gaj is your very favorite playing environment, but cultures and places are different because variety is necessary and good.
But ... I think we are all in agreement that even in Tuluk, where we have a kinder, gentler nobility and Templarate ... you should still clean the blood, sweat, and shit off yourself before you go meet someone important.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:33:16 PM
Political Veneer, is a scapegoat in lieu of realistic playing.
My Nobles will always act as though they are happy to mix with the commoners, no matter how much they smell, or how disgusting they look, or how crass they speak, because I have political veneer.
*Gag*
"Realistic playing" is playing to the docs. The docs are quite clear about Tuluki culture and its underpinnings. Not every place in the Known World is the Gaj, Desertman. I understand that the Gaj is your very favorite playing environment, but cultures and places are different because variety is necessary and good.
My very favorite place is Firestorms actually, as far as taverns go. But that doesnt matter.
I guess I will just have to remember that in Tuluk, Nobles, Templars, and Rich Silk-Clad merchants dont mind mixing with stinky commoners.
I cant wait to go into the Sanctuary with my next Byn Runner, who cant afford anything in that whole tavern, and mix with the silk-clad loveable upper-crest. Its going to be so much fun.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 01:38:54 PM
But ... I think we are all in agreement that even in Tuluk, where we have a kinder, gentler nobility and Templarate ... you should still clean the blood, sweat, and shit off yourself before you go meet someone important.
Dont worry about it, leave it on there.
In Tuluk we have political veneer. Its all in the docs.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 01:38:54 PM
But ... I think we are all in agreement that even in Tuluk, where we have a kinder, gentler nobility and Templarate ... you should still clean the blood, sweat, and shit off yourself before you go meet someone important.
Yes, because those are gestures of respect to a higher caste/status.
However, what Desertman really wants is for everyone not wearing silk to be in some tavern other than the Sanc. And that's just not how Tuluk works. The Sanc is not Trader's. Even hanging at Trader's doesn't require a PC to be garbed head-to-toe in silk.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:40:33 PM
In Tuluk we have political veneer. Its all in the docs.
A review might help you. Just sayin'. Rail against it all you want, but it's there. Heck...there's political veneer in Allanak too, but I wouldn't want to crush your world by pointing it out.
Next we'll say that nobles shouldn't be sitting at the bar, chit chattin' it up with commoners.
Then we'll have nobles sitting by themselves at the couch and tables for hours, getting bored.
Then we'll have nobles storing and Tuluk empty once again.
:'(
You'll never see me complain that the Sanctuary is crowded with PCs again. NEVER.
Yeah, like I said above, about realism vs. what's fun to do.
I feel like we gotta keep a healthy middle ground, because I get all the reality I need when I'm off-line.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 01:39:56 PM
..... Rich Silk-Clad merchants dont mind mixing with stinky commoners.
Rich silk-clad merchants are rich because they sell shit to stinky commoners.
Being an ass (or acting like you're better than everyone when you're technically the same, just better dressed) is a quick way to kill your client base.
Bleeding on the couch, copping a feel, coming in blood-covered.. all bad form. Just walking in covered in armor? Well, hell, the Legions do that all the time.
I think the biggest point that several people are trying to make here is that there isn't quite the huge divide between rich/chosen and poor commons in Tuluk that there is in 'Nak. (where even rich, silk-clad GMH employees get sneered at for sitting at the bar in Trader's.)
I have seen the barman animated to throw undesirables out. I have seen PCs shun people caught pickpocketing IN the Sanc, make disparaging remarks about poor behavior, and in general react to things that shouldn't happen there. What they DON'T do is make a screaming scene where they stamp their foot and insist a Templar kill joebob for spoiling the ambiance. Uppercrusty Faithful would die of shame before acting so southern.
Quote from: Kiri on September 30, 2008, 01:59:00 PM
Bleeding on the couch, copping a feel, coming in blood-covered.. all bad form. Just walking in covered in armor? Well, hell, the Legions do that all the time.
Yeah I'd be much more concerned about wearing armor if there was affordable pc housing. Currently I don't think most characters can afford an apartment to change and keep their armor in.
In a perfect world people could change their clothes and wouldn't wear backpacks everywhere, but currently that's hard to avoid, especially for less well established characters.
The Sanctuary is a nice place. Its entire description is that of a nice place. Every object in the room looks nice.
If your PC is going to the Sanctuary, you should expect that the norm for the Sanctuary is "clean." This means that having dust, sweat, and dried blood coating your character's body might be viewed in bad taste. Your character might get ridiculed. Your character might offend someone by doing this. If your character gets overlooked about this, does it mean that other people aren't playing according to the documentation? Not necessarily. Maybe they didn't notice your character--perhaps they are busy in a conversation with another character and are too busy to snub your character, or too focused on something else to devote time to insulting your character Tuluki-style. It's also possible that they expect (as players) that your character should know better than to waltz into an obviously nicer establishment covered in sweat, dried blood, and dust, and expect someone else to bring it up in-character, or expect the bartender to do something about it.
Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary. It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful. It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them. If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion. If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.
Quote from: Nyr on September 30, 2008, 02:17:35 PM
The Sanctuary is a nice place. Its entire description is that of a nice place. Every object in the room looks nice.
If your PC is going to the Sanctuary, you should expect that the norm for the Sanctuary is "clean." This means that having dust, sweat, and dried blood coating your character's body might be viewed in bad taste. Your character might get ridiculed. Your character might offend someone by doing this. If your character gets overlooked about this, does it mean that other people aren't playing according to the documentation? Not necessarily. Maybe they didn't notice your character--perhaps they are busy in a conversation with another character and are too busy to snub your character, or too focused on something else to devote time to insulting your character Tuluki-style. It's also possible that they expect (as players) that your character should know better than to waltz into an obviously nicer establishment covered in sweat, dried blood, and dust, and expect someone else to bring it up in-character, or expect the bartender to do something about it.
Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary. It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful. It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them. If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion. If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.
THANK YOU Nyr,
I knew it was strange to see rag-tag tattered sweaty-armored commoners lounging about. Somehow, down in my soul, that apparently has no concept of Tuluki rp, I knew that it just didnt make any fucking sense.
*Rears his wicked I told you so head.*
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: Nyr on September 30, 2008, 02:17:35 PM
The Sanctuary is a nice place. Its entire description is that of a nice place. Every object in the room looks nice.
If your PC is going to the Sanctuary, you should expect that the norm for the Sanctuary is "clean." This means that having dust, sweat, and dried blood coating your character's body might be viewed in bad taste. Your character might get ridiculed. Your character might offend someone by doing this. If your character gets overlooked about this, does it mean that other people aren't playing according to the documentation? Not necessarily. Maybe they didn't notice your character--perhaps they are busy in a conversation with another character and are too busy to snub your character, or too focused on something else to devote time to insulting your character Tuluki-style. It's also possible that they expect (as players) that your character should know better than to waltz into an obviously nicer establishment covered in sweat, dried blood, and dust, and expect someone else to bring it up in-character, or expect the bartender to do something about it.
Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary. It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful. It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them. If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion. If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.
THANK YOU Nyr,
I knew it was strange to see rag-tag tattered sweaty-armored commoners lounging about. Somehow, down in my soul, that apparently has no concept of Tuluki rp, I knew that it just didnt make any fucking sense.
*Rears his wicked I told you so head.*
You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 02:53:14 PM
You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?
You do realize that my "I told you so" isnt directed at Gimf in the least right?
My "I told you so" is directed at everyone who said that the Sanctuary is a perfectly reasonable place for average commoners to hang out.
When in fact, it isnt. It is a place where commoners are allowed, but it is a place where commoners are expected to have the means to dress accordingly, not in their smelly work-clothing. It is expected that they will dress their best, look their best, and clean up before strolling into the Sanctuary. Average commoners dont belong in the Sanctuary, only commoners who have the means to dress the part. Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.
I have never expressed a problem with commoners in the Sanctuary, I have expressed a problem with your average blue-collar sweat-stained, only owns one pair of clothing, or one suit of worn armor, commoner in the Sanctuary.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 02:53:14 PM
You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?
You do realize that my "I told you so" isnt directed at Gimf in the least right?
My "I told you so" is directed at everyone who said that the Sanctuary is a perfectly reasonable place for average commoners to hang out.
When in fact, it isnt. It is a place where commoners are allowed, but it is a place where commoners are expected to have the means to dress accordingly, not in their smelly work-clothing. It is expected that they will dress their best, look their best, and clean up before strolling into the Sanctuary. Average commoners dont belong in the Sanctuary, only commoners who have the means to dress the part. Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.
In many cases "looking your best" means brushing the dust off your clothes and not spitting on the floor. It means
doing your best to conform to social norms and demonstrate that you put that effort in, it does not mean that only the wealthy can go there.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 02:53:14 PM
You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?
You do realize that my "I told you so" isnt directed at Gimf in the least right?
My "I told you so" is directed at everyone who said that the Sanctuary is a perfectly reasonable place for average commoners to hang out.
When in fact, it isnt. It is a place where commoners are allowed, but it is a place where commoners are expected to have the means to dress accordingly, not in their smelly work-clothing. It is expected that they will dress their best, look their best, and clean up before strolling into the Sanctuary. Average commoners dont belong in the Sanctuary, only commoners who have the means to dress the part. Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.
In many cases "looking your best" means brushing the dust off your clothes and not spitting on the floor. It means doing your best to conform to social norms and demonstrate that you put that effort in, it does not mean that only the wealthy can go there.
For some people, their best simply isnt enough.
For some people their best is stained, sweat-stench armor. Or tattered worn and stained clothing that would actually make the barstool dirty.
For some people their best is whatever hand-me-down clothing they got from their older brother who has already wore the shit out of it.
If your "best" is "average commoner"...then your best isnt good enough for the Sanctuary.
If you dress like an average common/average hunter/average working class grunt, your ass doesnt belong in the Sanctuary.
As Nyr states, people go to the Sanctuary to try and impress the nobility. Unless your character is a fucking idiot, he should know that "Dusting off" his shit clothing, doesnt exactly make it impressive to the eyes of nobility.
Unless you character is a fucking idiot, he isnt going to try to impress the nobility, which Nyr has stated is the main reason for commoners to frequent the Sanctuary, wearing items that probably cost less than the noble's most recent meal.
I dont see how that is a hard concept to grasp. Its a fancy fucking establishment with fancy fucking people. If you cant afford to dress the part, keep your ass out, otherwise you should realize you are embarressing yourself.
Quote from: Nyr on September 30, 2008, 02:17:35 PM
Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary. It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful. It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them. If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion. If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.
This is the key, as I see it.
It isn't about your level of material wealth, it's about your attention to social code and your intentions. Commoners want to be in a position where they can receive patronage, jobs and move in certain social circles, impressing a Chosen or Faithful is always going to be appealing. How far they can do that, depends on the commoner.
Due to Tuluk's attitudes about social standing, it's more important that a person be doing their best. That's what's different from Allanak. By putting in that effort you're showing respect, and opening yourself up to opportunities. You show your classiness by trying.
Sure you can make up extreme examples of people unfit to be in any bar, but we're talking about working commoners here.
Your average working commoner can go to the Sanctuary, as long as they show attention to social expectations.
I repeat...
If you dress like an average common/average hunter/average working class grunt, your ass doesnt belong in the Sanctuary.
As Nyr states, people go to the Sanctuary to try and impress the nobility. Unless your character is a fucking idiot, he should know that "Dusting off" his shit clothing, doesnt exactly make it impressive to the eyes of nobility.
Unless you character is a fucking idiot, he isnt going to try to impress the nobility, which Nyr has stated is the main reason for commoners to frequent the Sanctuary, wearing items that probably cost less than the noble's most recent meal.
I dont see how that is a hard concept to grasp. Its a fancy fucking establishment with fancy fucking people. If you cant afford to dress the part, keep your ass out, otherwise you should realize you are embarressing yourself.
The Sanctuary and Tuluk in general arent Little League Baseball, you dont get a pat on your back for "Doing your best."
If a commoner's best is still "average commoner". Thats not good enough to land them a respectable seat in the Sanctuary. If a commoner's best is "luxurious and actually impressive commoner". They should be proud to flaunt that infront of the nobility.
You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right, you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 03:14:20 PM
You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right, you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.
Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary. It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful. It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them. If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion.So, you are trying to say that..." It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful. It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them."...this sentence, isnt trying to increase your social standing?
Thats exactly what it is. Nyr's post completely contradicts what you just said about Tuluk.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 03:14:20 PM
You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right, you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 03:07:26 PM
Due to Tuluk's attitudes about social standing, it's more important that a person be doing their best. That's what's different from Allanak. By putting in that effort you're showing respect, and opening yourself up to opportunities. You show your classiness by trying.
I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts. Are you trying to say that in Tuluk the only way to impress the upper classes is by displaying wealth?
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 03:14:20 PM
You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right, you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 03:07:26 PM
Due to Tuluk's attitudes about social standing, it's more important that a person be doing their best. That's what's different from Allanak. By putting in that effort you're showing respect, and opening yourself up to opportunities. You show your classiness by trying.
I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts. Are you trying to say that in Tuluk the only way to impress the upper classes is by displaying wealth?
I'm not convinced you are reading your posts.
Are you trying to say that displaying a lack of wealth would somehow not be a detriment to your ability to impress the upper classes?
The last time I checked, dressing like an average commoner/hunter/mercenary/grunt wasnt horribly impressive as far as social standing goes.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 03:21:06 PM
Are you trying to say that displaying a lack of wealth would somehow not be a detriment to your ability to impress the upper classes?
Yes. They're not going to to be impressed by a rude bastard in silks. They will however be impressed by a socially aware, polite working man in linens.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 30, 2008, 03:22:19 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 03:21:06 PM
Are you trying to say that displaying a lack of wealth would somehow not be a detriment to your ability to impress the upper classes?
Yes. They're not going to to be impressed by a rude bastard in silks. They will however be impressed by a socially aware, polite working man in linens.
Nice crisp clean linens I am completely fine with.
Armor, hunting gear, grebbing gear, that actually smells like it has been used, because it has been used, I have an issue with.
I think it's kinda funny then that ... every single "I pointed to Tuluk in the map room!" newbie PC has to violate the social standards of Tuluk, because they have to walk down the steps from the sleeping commons and through the common room in their crappy newbie vest and canvas pants.
I'm in complete agreement that people who are in there wearing stained anything (be it armor, hunting gear, or rag-tag clothing) should take a moment to reconsider unless they want to RP the whole affair of being scoffed at and insulted on purpose.
And also in agreement on the fact that people who go out of their way to dress in clothing they purchased from Under Tuluk or looted off a halfling should likewise, be expecting some snide remarks no matter how clean they make their shoddy clothing.
But from a playability point of view ... that new player to Arm who starts in the Sanctuary, starts there for a reason I think. I think that reason is because he has the best chance to meet some more established PC's there, get involved in things, and get sucked up into the game.
Thus, I feel like the "You can't go to the tavern where the job-giving PC's are because you can't afford to buy a full wardrobe of presentable clothing along with the basic eq you need for your guild with just your starting money!" line of thought does not seem like a good way to attract/keep new players or enhance the overall enjoyment of the game.
So I guess what I'm saying is the way I think most folks (maybe staff as well?) view it is: If the clothing you're wearing is dirty, or says in its description that it's a very shitty filthy piece of clothing by nature even if you try to clean it ... maybe the Sanctuary isn't for you. But if you're dressed in simple, modest commoner clothing that you cleaned up a bit, feel free to wander in and try to get involved in some of the cool stories going on in the city.
SMALL EDIT SINCE 5 REPLIES GOT TYPED WHILE I WAS TYPING: So ... I think we're all actually agreeing, and just getting tripped up over wordplay.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
I think it's kinda funny then that ... every single "I pointed to Tuluk in the map room!" newbie PC has to violate the social standards of Tuluk, because they have to walk down the steps from the sleeping commons and through the common room in their crappy newbie vest and canvas pants.
Templar and Noble PC's who havent been set up yet start in the exact same rooms, then have to Wish Up to get transported by staff so they can then be given proper gear.
Your arguement holds no water, but was good for a laugh. Its a simple coded affect that has no bearing on any RP from that moment forward, what so ever.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
I'm in complete agreement that people who are in there wearing stained anything (be it armor, hunting gear, or rag-tag clothing) should take a moment to reconsider unless they want to RP the whole affair of being scoffed at and insulted on purpose.
And also in agreement on the fact that people who go out of their way to dress in clothing they purchased from Under Tuluk or looted off a halfling should likewise, be expecting some snide remarks no matter how clean they make their shoddy clothing.
Completely agree with you.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
But from a playability point of view ... that new player to Arm who starts in the Sanctuary, starts there for a reason I think. I think that reason is because he has the best chance to meet some more established PC's there, get involved in things, and get sucked up into the game.
They start there because its probably easier to code everyone starting in one place. Please see my above comment in reference to this arguement.
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
Thus, I feel like the "You can't go to the tavern where the job-giving PC's are because you can't afford to buy a full wardrobe of presentable clothing along with the basic eq you need for your guild with just your starting money!" line of thought does not seem like a good way to attract/keep new players or enhance the overall enjoyment of the game.
So I guess what I'm saying is the way I think most folks (maybe staff as well?) view it is: If the clothing you're wearing is dirty, or says in its description that it's a very shitty filthy piece of clothing by nature even if you try to clean it ... maybe the Sanctuary isn't for you. But if you're dressed in simple, modest commoner clothing that you cleaned up a bit, feel free to wander in and try to get involved in some of the cool stories going on in the city.
If you are wearing average commoner clothing, that is clean, as in, not used and doesnt smell like ass, then sure, go have a seat at the Sanctuary. I suspect you are still going to get the stinkeye from people who can actually afford to buy things there, which you cant, but maybe they will take pity on you and give you a job, since you are trying, and then you can get the fuck out.
I love being quoted out of context to suit an argument just as much as the next staffer, but the intent of my post wasn't to decide who can and can't enter the Sanctuary. I wrote that post to point out how the Sanctuary ties into Tuluki roleplay and the society there. (One might recall that the original post some five pages ago was about Tuluk and roleplay, not a flamefest over the Sun King's Sanctuary.) In fact, I never said what someone had to wear or what they shouldn't wear. I said that people shouldn't be covered in dried blood, dust, and sweat if they are following the social expectations of Tuluk. Each of these three things can be removed with a bit of work or at least made less noticeable.
I didn't say that you should't go into the Sanctuary decked out in armor. I didn't say that you should go to the Sanctuary decked out in armor, either. I didn't say that you shouldn't go to the Sanctuary wearing tattered clothing. I didn't say that you should, either. The social expectations of Tuluk are not that everyone be able to afford and wear silk in order to enter the Sanctuary. The social expectation is that you be presentable, because the whole room is a nice place--and it's a nice place because His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the place. If a character isn't aware of or ignores the social expectation, then they'll reap the IC consequences (if there are any).
The whole point was to give a baseline idea for what is expected. You may notice that there were a lot of "mights," "maybe's," and "possibly's" in those two paragraphs. This is not a rigid set of documentation to follow--it is meant to shed more light on Tuluk in general, which can be difficult to understand at times, and further confused by different perceptions.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 03:28:35 PM
Quote from: musashi on September 30, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
I think it's kinda funny then that ... every single "I pointed to Tuluk in the map room!" newbie PC has to violate the social standards of Tuluk, because they have to walk down the steps from the sleeping commons and through the common room in their crappy newbie vest and canvas pants.
Templar and Noble PC's who havent been set up yet start in the exact same rooms, then have to Wish Up to get transported by staff so they can then be given proper gear.
Your arguement holds no water, but was good for a laugh. Its a simple coded affect that has no bearing on any RP from that moment forward, what so ever.
That wasn't actually an arguement ... more just a laugh. Like I said, I think everyone is agreeing basically.
What about tribals, Desertman? Do you expect them to be in nice clothes as well? There's a certain fascination and friendship between the tribals and Chosens and Faithfuls that I've always noticed when playing in Tuluk.
You'd assume that the tribals are not smelling very nice, yet they always seem to have a special place in the heart of the nobles there.
Quote from: Malken on September 30, 2008, 03:32:41 PM
What about tribals, Desertman? Do you expect them to be in nice clothes as well? There's a certain fascination and friendship between the tribals and Chosens and Faithfuls that I've always noticed when playing in Tuluk.
You'd assume that the tribals are not smelling very nice, yet they always seem to have a special place in the heart of the nobles there.
I would say tribals who are dressed in sandcloth that they maybe dusted off before they walked in should be a-ok!
I would also say tribals dressed in a urine soaked loincloth and blood face paint might find it a little difficult to blend in.
I just mean to say, I've never noticed the clothing that bendune speaking folks wear to seem primative at all ... isn't it nice enough that they can trade it inside the cities?
Quote from: Nyr on September 30, 2008, 03:30:23 PM
I didn't say that you should't go into the Sanctuary decked out in armor. I didn't say that you should go to the Sanctuary decked out in armor, either. I didn't say that you shouldn't go to the Sanctuary wearing tattered clothing. I didn't say that you should, either. The social expectations of Tuluk are not that everyone be able to afford and wear silk in order to enter the Sanctuary. The social expectation is that you be presentable, because the whole room is a nice place--and it's a nice place because His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the place. If a character isn't aware of or ignores the social expectation, then they'll reap the IC consequences (if there are any).
You would make a good politician.
So from all of that, we get one definite sentence...
You should not go into the sanctuary with blood, dust, or sweat tags on your items.
We could have just cut straight to that.
Can I get a better explanation of what would be considered "presentable"?
I am extremely confused. In my mind, if the clothing you are wearing costs less than the table clothe at the establishment you are currently at, you arent dressed in a "presentable" manner for that establishment.
Please confirm.
Also, what would the mind-set be for the Sanctuary in regards to the lowly races?
Half-elves predominantly, as well as Elves?
Quote from: Malken on September 30, 2008, 03:32:41 PM
What about tribals, Desertman? Do you expect them to be in nice clothes as well? There's a certain fascination and friendship between the tribals and Chosens and Faithfuls that I've always noticed when playing in Tuluk.
You'd assume that the tribals are not smelling very nice, yet they always seem to have a special place in the heart of the nobles there.
If a tribal doesnt know any better than to sit in the Sanctuary while dressed in his desert gear, I think the nobles would use some of that political veneer we were talking about and overlook that fact.
Sort of the same way you overlook the fact a retard doesnt know how to tie his shoes. They simply dont know how shit works.
I think the nobles would be a little appalled by the fact they have to smell that thing, but in the end, actually harassing them about it, since they arent Tuluki citizens and dont know any better, would be like beating a harmless animal.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 03:37:45 PM
If a tribal doesnt know any better than to sit in the Sanctuary while dressed in his desert gear, I think the nobles would use some of that political veneer we were talking about and overlook that fact.
So I guess that no one really knows how to role play in the Sanctuary because I find that most nobles are always more than happy to learn everything about your tribe when they notice your accent, and
that they also are more than happy to try and recruit you or find you a job when they notice that you seem like a decent hunter who isn't clanned yet, bloodied armor on or not.
Quote from: Malken on September 30, 2008, 03:47:27 PM
So I guess that no one really knows how to role play in the Sanctuary because I find that most nobles are always more than happy to learn everything about your tribe when they notice your accent, and
that they also are more than happy to try and recruit you or find you a job when they notice that you seem like a decent hunter who isn't clanned yet, bloodied armor on or not.
I personally think tribals who know anything about Tuluki culture should stay the fuck out of the Sanctuary. So yeah, I guess based on that premise your statement is pretty dead on in regards to how I feel about the current state of Sanctuary RP.
I did have one noble recently who sneered at my pc while in the Tooth. I wish that noble would spend some more time in the Sanctuary sneering at lower-class individuals, that guy could really clean that place up.
(Consider this my kudoes to you, noble dude)
I think bottom line is that you don't need fancy clothes, you need a bar of soap or an armor brush.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 30, 2008, 03:51:29 PM
I think bottom line is that you don't need fancy clothes, you need a bar of soap or an armor brush.
Actually we havent reached any bottom line. As Nyr has stated he didnt condone nor did he champion the wearing of or not wearing of fancy clothes while in the Sanctuary.
I have asked him directly what he considers presentable, since we couldnt get a definite answer. Until we do get a definite answer, we really cant say what is and isnt acceptable in the Sanctuary, because none of us know. We are all just spouting our opinions, which hold no weight, because none of us are immortals and as such, we dont have the authority.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 03:53:16 PM
Actually we havent reached any bottom line. As Nyr has stated he didnt condone nor did he champion the wearing of or not wearing of fancy clothes while in the Sanctuary.
I have asked him directly what he considers presentable, since we couldnt get a definite answer. Until we do get a definite answer, we really cant say what is and isnt acceptable in the Sanctuary, because none of us know. We are all just spouting our opinions, which hold no weight, because none of us are immortals and as such, we dont have the authority.
Pretty sure it's only you that's unclear at this point.
D'man, you're the only... person... confused... here from what I can tell. It's okay. Breathe.
Tuluki's, from what I can tell, like their blokes and lasses in armor. It means (or at least implies) that they know what they're doing. How better to impress a Chosen of Tuluk than to be useful? Further, I've never seen anyone kick out a grubby beggar. Why? One, they may have been very subtly done chased away. Two, they're still commoners. Commoners are a privleged sort around the Gol.
Of course, if you're personally offended by the look of someone in His Sanctuary, you're more than welcome to censure and deride them if it would be appropriate for your character. Outside of that, it's a good reminder to spiff up a bit when interacting with others, whatever that means, precisely, for your character. (I think a large part of this is a difference in what it means to be 'cleaned up'. It seems that a lot of the dissenting opinions are of the mind that cleaned up in Zalanthas doesn't quite mean what it would IRL.)
Edit: I'd recommend spliting this off into one generally on the topic of cleanliness and culture if it's going to carry on. This is distracting from the very interesting and valid conversations that have lead up to this point.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 30, 2008, 03:51:29 PM
I think bottom line is that you don't need fancy clothes, you need a bar of soap or an armor brush.
Then I would say I do in fact agree with this opinion!
In an ideal, able to be 100% realistic without affecting gameplay enjoyment world ... it would be swell if nobles could just basically hang out with nobles, templar, and very very very rich commoners all day long, and use aides and less important folk to handle all the job contracting of hunters, guards, and lowly slightly gritty folk. It really would be cool!
But since we don't exactly have the massive playerbase required to support that, I'm ok with someone wearing hunting gear or armor thinking that it's presentable enough to go and have a drink in the sanctuary and maybe speak with a social better.
... ... So long as the armor isn't covered in shit.
I must say I do see a great many folk in there with blood stained what have you ... even mentioned that it was a little uncooth to one, but I believe her reply was something like: Oh ... no it's ok. Everyone knows I'm a hunter so it's alright to leave the blood caking on my gloves.
... My character (being a hunter as well) thought she was a little ... ugh ... I imagine perhaps a great many other characters would as well ... but hopefully the player behind the character realized the social impact, and was just doing it on purpose to portray how their PC didn't really care about fitting in or being presentable.
Man in retrospect I wish I had been clever enough to come up with something like: Oh yes ... I hear halfling is the fashion of the season ... no doubt you'll be the envy of every aide.
But I wasn't. :( Darn.
Anyway ... just saying, I also don't really approve of being in the Sanctuary (or any obviously posh place) covered in blood and poop, but maybe the best thing to do is to react to it IG and hope my example catches on.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 30, 2008, 04:00:23 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 03:53:16 PM
Actually we havent reached any bottom line. As Nyr has stated he didnt condone nor did he champion the wearing of or not wearing of fancy clothes while in the Sanctuary.
I have asked him directly what he considers presentable, since we couldnt get a definite answer. Until we do get a definite answer, we really cant say what is and isnt acceptable in the Sanctuary, because none of us know. We are all just spouting our opinions, which hold no weight, because none of us are immortals and as such, we dont have the authority.
Pretty sure it's only you that's unclear at this point.
You just dont realize you are unclear, which is arguabley worse.
Quote from: Rairen on September 30, 2008, 04:03:19 PM
D'man, you're the only... person... confused... here from what I can tell. It's okay. Breathe.
Thinking you are right, and being right, arent the same thing.
Quote from: Rairen on September 30, 2008, 04:03:19 PM
Tuluki's, from what I can tell, like their blokes and lasses in armor. It means (or at least implies) that they know what they're doing. How better to impress a Chosen of Tuluk than to be useful? Further, I've never seen anyone kick out a grubby beggar. Why? One, they may have been very subtly done chased away. Two, they're still commoners. Commoners are a privleged sort around the Gol.
Actually Nyr hasnt said one war or the other if armor is acceptable in the Sanctuary. The same for beggar class individuals. So you arent wrong or right, you simply have an opinion, that hasnt been proven wrong or right.
Quote from: Rairen on September 30, 2008, 04:03:19 PM
Of course, if you're personally offended by the look of someone in His Sanctuary, you're more than welcome to censure and deride them if it would be appropriate for your character. Outside of that, it's a good reminder to spiff up a bit when interacting with others, whatever that means, precisely, for your character. (I think a large part of this is a difference in what it means to be 'cleaned up'. It seems that a lot of the dissenting opinions are of the mind that cleaned up in Zalanthas doesn't quite mean what it would IRL.)
Again, until we get an answer from Nyr, neither of us have any ground to stand on. I cant even say that you are wrong, because I have no ground to stand on, until we get an answer.
I can't believe this has gone on for three pages. Can we split this head-to-wall-banging derail off into another thread?
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 30, 2008, 04:25:34 PM
I can't believe this has gone on for three pages. Can we split this head-to-wall-banging derail off into another thread?
I dont think there is a need now. We are at a standstill until we get a definite answer from staff on what we all believe is proper for the Sanctuary, so there is really no reason to continue discussing it until that point.
Nicely attired and presentable in Tuluk does not equal silk. It can be armor, it can be linen, or cotton, or yes, even sandcloth, and it can be tribal dress. Wear what is appropriate for your station, tribe, and job.
If you are kicking back after a day of battling gortoks, halflings and carru you'll want to clean up before entering the Sanctuary. If you just killed your neighbor, you may want to clean up before you head to the Sanctuary - especially if you didn't have a license. If you smell like you have done any of the above, you may want to clean up.
There is no "No shirt, no shoes, no service" rule in the Sanctuary. It's a common sense thing - it is a nice place. If you are Tuluki, you know appearances are important. If you aren't, you will be treated accordingly. This doesn't mean that every Tuluki has to or would openly fuss over every person who comes into the Sanctuary dressed inappropriately. It also does not require the response to your inappropriate attire to be obvious to you.
I made a new topic and shoved all of the debate and what-not about taverns in here.
I pretty much referred to the (Internet) textbook definition...something that is worthy of presentation, suitable or socially acceptable with a good and clean appearance.
Quote from: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/presentable
presentable
–adjective
1. that may be presented.
2. suitable or socially acceptable in appearance, dress, manners, etc., as for being introduced into society: a presentable young man.
3. of sufficiently good, clothed, or clean appearance; fit to be seen: Are you presentable now?
It does also say "clothed" and refers to "dress" as well, but I think it does a pretty good job of summing up what I mean by presentable.
No, it's not precisely an example of presentable dress for each facet of Tuluki society when entering the Sanctuary. The stuff I wrote was a general observation--general guidelines. General guidelines don't cover every eventuality and won't cover every character's definition of "presentable," since "presentable" is often in the eye of the beholder (and often the perception of the presenter).
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 04:27:38 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 30, 2008, 04:25:34 PM
I can't believe this has gone on for three pages. Can we split this head-to-wall-banging derail off into another thread?
I dont think there is a need now. We are at a standstill until we get a definite answer from staff on what we all believe is proper for the Sanctuary, so there is really no reason to continue discussing it until that point.
Your confusion lies in believing, or at least professing to believe, that this matter can be reduced to a hard and fast rule about what is proper and what is not. Social standards and expectations are usually fairly fluid things and change with the trends of the day. Personally, I'd absolutely hate to play in a world where the staff explicitly laid out every single thing you can or cannot do, because it would leave absolutely no room for the little changes in day to day life that the players of the day bring about through their roleplay.
Quote from: Senga on September 30, 2008, 04:29:36 PM
Nicely attired and presentable in Tuluk does not equal silk. It can be armor, it can be linen, or cotton, or yes, even sandcloth, and it can be tribal dress. Wear what is appropriate for your station, tribe, and job.
If you are kicking back after a day of battling gortoks, halflings and carru you'll want to clean up before entering the Sanctuary. If you just killed your neighbor, you may want to clean up before you head to the Sanctuary - especially if you didn't have a license. If you smell like you have done any of the above, you may want to clean up.
There is no "No shirt, no shoes, no service" rule in the Sanctuary. It's a common sense thing - it is a nice place. If you are Tuluki, you know appearances are important. If you aren't, you will be treated accordingly. This doesn't mean that every Tuluki has to or would openly fuss over every person who comes into the Sanctuary dressed inappropriately. It also does not require the response to your inappropriate attire to be obvious to you.
Thank you Senga, your direct response is very much appreciated and very useful.
I would like to appologize to everyone, I was wrong.
All of these years I thought that if you were playing in the Sanctuary, you probably needed to dress in attire that cost more than the food and drink you would be having.
Apparently that is not the case, and I spouted off my big mouth out if ignorance.
It would seem that you only need to have your gear clear of blood, dust, and sweat tags, and you are good to go.
Again, I offer my most humble appology and I hope to see the rest of you halfbreeds, tribals, mercenaries, and hunters, at the Sanctuary tonight. We can have a drink with the Nobles and Faithfuls.
Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.
Quote from: Yam on September 30, 2008, 04:47:55 PM
Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.
Oh I dont agree with it, and I personally think its a crock.
But, the Immortals have spoken, and I will adhere to what they have said, because their word is law. I may not like it, but those are the guidelines regarding the Sanctuary and I will RP accordingly now that guidelines have been presented in a manner that is actually understandable and useful.
(No sarcasm intended, I whole heartedly mean that.)
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 04:49:35 PM
Quote from: Yam on September 30, 2008, 04:47:55 PM
Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.
Oh I dont agree with it, and I personally think its a crock.
But, the Immortals have spoken, and I will adhere to what they have said, because their word is law. I may not like it, but those are the guidelines regarding the Sanctuary and I will RP accordingly now that guidelines have been presented.
(No sarcasm intended, I whole heartedly mean that.)
You can change it ICly. Srsly.
Quote from: Yam on September 30, 2008, 04:53:30 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 04:49:35 PM
Quote from: Yam on September 30, 2008, 04:47:55 PM
Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.
Oh I dont agree with it, and I personally think its a crock.
But, the Immortals have spoken, and I will adhere to what they have said, because their word is law. I may not like it, but those are the guidelines regarding the Sanctuary and I will RP accordingly now that guidelines have been presented.
(No sarcasm intended, I whole heartedly mean that.)
You can change it ICly. Srsly.
I could, but then I would be going against game policy, which is considered bad RP.
Desertman, you crack me up sometimes.
I'd say that at least 70% of the PCs I've seen last night in the Sanctuary had more than one item with blood on it.
I was sorf of hoping that Desertman was playing a Chosen and would start trying to clean it all up!
That'd be quite the project.
Quote from: Malken on September 30, 2008, 04:58:46 PM
I'd say that at least 70% of the PCs I've seen last night in the Sanctuary had more than one item with blood on it.
I was sorf of hoping that Desertman was playing a Chosen and would start trying to clean it all up!
That'd be quite the project.
It will never be a good idea to let me play a northern Noble or Faithful. Suffice to say, it would get a little less rainbow-bright in Tuluk.
(That can go on my account notes, just incase a screw comes loose and I one day actually App one, you guys will know to immediately not consider me. For everyone's good, even my own.)
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 04:46:56 PM
Apparently that is not the case, and I spouted off my big mouth out if ignorance.
Someone should 'sig' this, if I werent me, and I saw someone else let this one slip, I would quote the piss out of it, to be an ass.
We don't have to sig that, Desertman. It happens every day.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 30, 2008, 05:07:14 PM
We don't have to sig that, Desertman. It happens every day.
Now my feelings are hurt. :-[
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 30, 2008, 05:18:49 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 05:15:29 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 30, 2008, 05:07:14 PM
We don't have to sig that, Desertman. It happens every day.
Now my feelings are hurt. :-[
Yeh, right.
Seriously, I am a human being. I have feelings. I really do. Sometimes at night, when noone else is around, I sit in my bedroom corner and cry, and rub dog shit in my hair.
Haha.
I think of the Sanctuary as a place where all freeborn citizens and visitors to the city go to meet, hire workers or look for work, make contacts, and so on.
I was disappointed when Tuluk was being rebuilt that an exclusive meeting place for the silk set wasn't included. Even with new furniture the Sanctuary isn't a good fit, because of it's location. Something adjacent to the noble's quarter would have been better. Unfortunately there were already several tavern in Tuluk, even after closing the one in the vineyard, and dividing the player base too much isn't a great idea. (Of course a few new meeting places were added, so obviously I'm missing something).
I assume that when Noble's go to the Sanctuary, they are going there to "work". It isn't like a country club, where the rich can relax away from the plebs. It is a place where freeborn people go to make contacts. When nobles want to sit somewhere that smells nice and relax, they go home. Most of the great Houses have some nice rooms where they could comfortably meet with other classy people. They have wine at home, they have food at home, they have servants/slaves at home. They don't need to go to out to have a lovely meal and a drink, they can get all that at home without the long walk through the city. They go to the Sanctuary to do business.
On the other hand, the furniture in the Sanctuary is pretty nice. It was shabby chic during the occupation, and everyone came in grubby. But things have been cleaned up since then. The building is nice, the furniture is nice, the dishes are nice, it is a nice place. It really is inappropriate to go in there with your stinky boots and gore splattered clothing. Won't someone think of the upholstery!?! I'm not worried about body odor, because different cultures have different tolerances for BO. (I'm sure we've all encountered immigrants who look clean, yet have horrible BO; they aren't filthy people, the simply appear to come from a culture that doesn't value antiperspirant.) I'm willing to believe that people in Zalanthas, even wealthy good-smelling people, are not easily offended by normal body odors. But a tolerance for BO isn't the same as a tolerance for filth. A commoner going into the Sanctuary should at the very least try to brush off anything crusted onto their clothes, and maybe use a damp cloth to scrub the worst off his face, neck, armpits, and groin. Water is pretty cheap in Tuluk, if your PC couldn't afford to use half a cup of water to tidy up a bit, maybe your PC doesn't have a good reason to go into the Sanctuary.
In Tuluk, things are subtle. In Tuluk, things are also relative. Your status as a commoner can be depend on you. It can be dependent on your patron. Which is not something someone would know by just looking at you and your clothes, for instance.
I think Desertman was thinking of it as a minimum level, for everyone. If you can't meet this level because of your station, you shouldn't be there.
When it seems to be a minimum level, based on your station. But any station is allowed.
I don't think it has anything to do with subtlety. It's pretty clear, concise, and unambiguous. Simple math; consider it pseudo-code.
IF
your character wishes to follow the rules of "proper Tuluk etiquette" in the Sanctuary,
THEN
he will attempt to clean himself and his gear prior to or immediately upon entry. If it's just dust, then immediately upon. If it's more than just dust, then prior to.
ELSE IF
your character doesn't care about the perception of polite company in the Sanctuary
OR IF
your character is ignorant of polite Tuluk etiquette (being a tribal or Southerner visiting for the first time ever and having never heard anyone, from family to friends to overhearing a conversation among Bynners at the Gaj, mention anything about polite Tuluk etiquette in the entirety of your character's misbegotten life)
OR IF
your character wants to intentionally be annoying
THEN
your character will come however the fuck he likes, and will be subject to the appropriate criticism from whoever is in a position to criticize (if you are a fully maxed-out and licensed assassin and happen to also be Super Senior Chosen Lord Dippety Doodah, there aren't going to be too many people in a position to criticize you :) )
Forgive me for being too lazy to quote you all.
Above, Musashi says it would be great if the nobles just hung out with nobles and let the commoners handle the commoners.
And Desertman also implied that the nice people should be segregated. That commoners shouldn't be hanging with them.
And the thing is, that you can have it work exactly the way you envisage. If you play in Nak.
In Tuluk there are cultural reasons why the nobles hang out with the riff raff. They like to see themselves and rugged and busy people with purpose, (maybe not so much the rugged. Maybe I mean capable) unlike those southern dilettantes. They want to see themselves as magnanimous and endorsed by the masses. And depending upon your personality, perhaps even loved by the masses.
It's like people with dogs. They like that their dogs like them.
I personally would love it if, especially in 2.0 as it isn't going to happen now, there were five or six bars. The city would be 1/4 of the size. There would be bars on street corners, dives. You could only fit four or five PC's in them. After that point, you'd get a message of "This bar is packed, and you don't think you can get in."
You may cry "Spreading the PBase too thin, c'mon". However, I think if the cities were much smaller in radius, with only passing blocks of two or three between major avenues, you as a PC would be able to hang out at one dive bar, wait for a friend to show up. If s/he didn't, you'd move on to the next one. Night-hawks, such as myself, do this IRL. I think there should be large taverns, like the Sanctuary, but they shouldn't be the end all, be all, of meeting people or meeting -with- people. If i'm in the Warrens, and i'm a poor fucker, I have to go to the Tooth. And support Kuraci's. Why does that make any sense? You don't think there would be speakeasies, where all you can buy is a shot of cheap whiskey and a beer? And the only occupants are a seventy-year old homeless guy and a cute bartender who gives blowjobs in the back on slow nights for an extra 'sid?
Just my thoughts.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 01, 2008, 04:50:26 AM
I personally would love it if, especially in 2.0 as it isn't going to happen now, there were five or six bars. The city would be 1/4 of the size. There would be bars on street corners, dives. You could only fit four or five PC's in them. After that point, you'd get a message of "This bar is packed, and you don't think you can get in."
Hmm, there is already a limited number of seats in a tavern. People can keep coming in, but they will have to stand or sit on the floor, which makes conversation difficult, or convince someone else to give up their seat. In what way would limiting the number of PCs that can fit in a room be better than limiting the number of PC-accessible seats in the room?
Quote from: Reiloth on October 01, 2008, 04:50:26 AM
I personally would love it if, especially in 2.0 as it isn't going to happen now, there were five or six bars. The city would be 1/4 of the size. There would be bars on street corners, dives. You could only fit four or five PC's in them. After that point, you'd get a message of "This bar is packed, and you don't think you can get in."
Make taverns that have multiple rooms, segregated by social standing. All the players in the city, one tavern, no nobles sitting with beggars.
Not in Allanak, my friend.
Not in Allanak.
Protip: Most Tuluki nobles probably don't actually love commoners.
Actually, I witnessed a noble, quite subtly, have Clint kick a dirty and bloody elf out. There was imm involvement, and the noble didn't have to say a word. It was beautiful!
My views on tavern culture:
Taverns are businesses, just like any shop or stall. They profit from the drinks and foods they sell, more than the services and events. The logical progression of that would be to expect costumers to be buying drinks and their food when they stop in. Realistically speaking, there are servers and hospitable bartenders to encourage this, but IG these are the vNPC and NPC population.
Currently, whether motivated to some degree by OOC reasons (whether out of boredom or want to socialize on players part) or IG reasons (business, socialize, etc.) PCs stop by taverns of varying social standing (from the Sanctuary to the Gaj). From those two choices (IG or OOC) the motivation for PCs to visit taverns that don't seem to fit with their social standing or situation is most likely for the OOC considerations and enjoyment of the player, seen in the number of options in either city-state that often are lacking in PC traffic.
Here's my point. If PCs were included in the dealings of the normal populace, if they choose to stop by a tavern, whether for social, political, or business reasons, they should be pressured (subtly or not) to get something from the establishment. It's because this pressure is lacking that people can idle in taverns they shouldn't belong in, because under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be able to afford what the tavern provides. From the owner's standpoint, if there's no business from a patron, they're considered to be taking the space of potential customers, and so whether from a bouncer or other, they'd be pressured to leave.
So what does this account to? Whether RL or IG, people come to taverns to relax, socialize, and have fun (and some business if necessary). When you are coming to taverns, this equates to drinking or eating with your mates (whether or not there are events going on). What I'd like to see more of is people actually buying drinks when they are in taverns, instead of stopping in for five minutes to idle, and then standing up and leaving without having said a word and with a couple nods here and there. Because there's no pressure IG to buy drinks, this doesn't mean there should be no pressure at all. The longer you idle in the tavern, the more money you should be spending. This should give purpose and meaning to coming to taverns. Since you're PC is spending money to be there, (meaningless) idling no longer becomes an option, and aside from fixing the problem of people who don't belong coming, there'll be more activity going on.
A small rant now. Recently, I've been noticing plenty of PCs in taverns, but likely a quarter of the number actually participating. The rest are bumming on their butts listening in on the fun. I'm not saying you should be participating -all- the time, but at least buy a drink or two while sitting there. If not, ask for what reason your PC is in that particular tavern for. Is it actually realistic for your PC to be doing what s/he is doing? If you can't afford a drink there, ask a friend (or make a friend) for one, and you can be included in a group that you normally may not be apart of (because you usually can't afford the company). It makes socializing and buying drinks for people and the impact on your character's social standing that much more meaningful.
One of the things that happens if this culture of buying sets in is that seeing down-dressed PCs at a tavern they supposedly shouldn't be in has much more meaning, than for the OOC reasons most people assume. If they have a drink in hand, how did they get that drink? From whom did they get the drink? And a whole number of other questions can be asked depending on the situation. And if your character is one to care about social standing, they'll want to be in taverns that have higher social standing to show their wealth/power/influence or other, even if they may not be able to afford it. Strategic socializing and wits all start to play a role, and replaces the current culture of meaningless idling that I see.
Where to start? I think the biggest factor that would set this in motion are PC bartenders/servers/bouncers. Not only does it add jobs for unaffiliated PCs, it gives life and meaning to the tavern social scene. Those who can't afford a drink start getting kicked out, unless they can get someone to cover for them. Interaction at the bar becomes a subtle struggle for the upper hand in influence and popularity. Buying drinks for people actually have potentially more meaning behind it, and the taverns you visit become an indication of how well your PC is doing.
Thoughts?
re: Semper - regarding not buying things in taverns:
I'm going to quote myself here, because I answered that concern in a previous thread a few months ago and I very much feel that it still applies.
Quote from: staggerlee on June 29, 2008, 01:10:07 PM
I always had the impression in Armageddon that taverns don't serve quite the same function as modern bars. They're a common meeting area, a place for public congregation. Those without facilities at home go there to cook or sleep, travellers stop to rest, and everyone congregates at the end of the day when it's too dark to travel the deserts or they've been released from daily duties or training schedules. Once there the tavern is a place for rest, socializing, meeting, entertainment or planning.
The bar owner profits as a central meeting area, he may not make direct income from the cooking, sleeping and gathering but chances are enough people will buy food or drink that he stays ahead of the game. But also consider that the bars aren't necessarily privately run. Consider who runs your favourite bar and what their motivation for doing so may be. And when I say that, I mean find out ic. ;)
On that note, I think there should be more gossiping in the bars. That's how news travels in Zalanthas, and what the ic boards simulate. I know you all want to play stoic surly bastards, but sitting down at a bar in Zalanthas and saying "what news?" would be fairly common place. It isn't like the real world where we're bombarded by media from all directions, bar gossip would play an important role in the spread of news and information (or misinformation), and any merchant, mercenary or traveller that avoided public areas could quickly find themself entirely out of the loop and at a disadvantage over the cut-throat competition.
I think every organization, and every independent for that matter, could benefit from tavern sitting.
I agree with your point for the most part. What my post is getting at is only adding to what you have quoted. IG taverns -don't- serve the same purpose as modern taverns do (at least from the initial comparison) but they are still profitable ventures. Any organization, whether a merchant House or crime group, owns the tavern expecting profit, and they get the most profit from their drinks and meals. If it's a central gathering place for certain groups and social castes, great for the tavern. They get more profit that way. But when people who can't afford to buy anything, or use any of their services are frequenting their establishment, they lose business by the fact the their normal (socially minded) patrons don't like to be seen with those of lower standing, and either leave to better taverns or don't visit as much.
If rinthers started frequenting the place you slept and rested and met friends with, would you be comfortable? That's pretty much what should be going through the minds of patrons when they notice people of lower standing hanging around.
Now this is from only one perspective. That from the middle commoner class. But it would apply to some degree (if not most) to any social class. If a well-dressed, influential individual walked into a shady, hole-in-the-wall seedy tavern, there should be bells and whistles sounding in the heads of everyone there.
I can think of scenarios where bar owners might not care about turning a profit. It implies they have another motive for operating the place, and/or that money is not a concern. I'm not commenting what so ever on the situation in game, though I do have some thoughts about particular establishments. ;)
I wouldn't by any means suggest that would apply to every bar, but in some cases it might definitely explain a thing or two. I definitely get what you're saying.
I think that your average Tuluki can enter the Sanctuary without much fear so long as they take the basic steps of cleaning themselves up a little. Due to the patronage system of Tuluk, you need some place where Tuluki nobles and commoners can hook up. In fact, you need a place where people of all classes can hook up to conduct business.
The important point in this though is that there is a mile of difference between conducting business and hanging out.
I don't think it would be odd to see an average commoner in the Sanctuary, but that commoner would almost always have a goal and find the entire ordeal rather stressful. In the world of "subtly" it means being on your feet all the time. Being around your betters is a great place to screw up and really ruin your reputation. It also means you probably go out of your way to make a good impression. You don't wear your bloody rags in. Further, once business is done, you scram. Nothing good is going to come from hanging around in a place where you can't afford a drink surrounded by people that can crush you.
So, dropping in to see a your patron or speak with a merchant? Good idea. Got invited by a merchant or noble? Great. Idling there with your hunter for a few days? Probably a bad idea. There is nothing wrong with dropping in to conduct business or accepting an invitation from someone who belongs, but you better at least be a moderately well to do commoner before you make it a hang out. If you just got done hunting and are covered in blood, eh, fuck'em, go lay out in one of Tuluk's other taverns and punch the first guy in the face who complains about your stench.
Quote from: Desertman on October 06, 2008, 12:45:45 PM
Quote from: Rindan on October 04, 2008, 10:49:51 PM
I think that your average Tuluki can enter the Sanctuary without much fear so long as they take the basic steps of cleaning themselves up a little. Due to the patronage system of Tuluk, you need some place where Tuluki nobles and commoners can hook up. In fact, you need a place where people of all classes can hook up to conduct business.
The important point in this though is that there is a mile of difference between conducting business and hanging out.
I don't think it would be odd to see an average commoner in the Sanctuary, but that commoner would almost always have a goal and find the entire ordeal rather stressful. In the world of "subtly" it means being on your feet all the time. Being around your betters is a great place to screw up and really ruin your reputation. It also means you probably go out of your way to make a good impression. You don't wear your bloody rags in. Further, once business is done, you scram. Nothing good is going to come from hanging around in a place where you can't afford a drink surrounded by people that can crush you.
So, dropping in to see a your patron or speak with a merchant? Good idea. Got invited by a merchant or noble? Great. Idling there with your hunter for a few days? Probably a bad idea. There is nothing wrong with dropping in to conduct business or accepting an invitation from someone who belongs, but you better at least be a moderately well to do commoner before you make it a hang out. If you just got done hunting and are covered in blood, eh, fuck'em, go lay out in one of Tuluk's other taverns and punch the first guy in the face who complains about your stench.
[Moderated by Nyr.]
And then, when you are in their estate, they take off their teddy bear mask to reveal death.
I recently moderated a few posts in this thread.
Some staff members (including me) are beginning to lose their tolerance for snarky/passive-aggressive/trollish posting behavior.
Consider this an official warning, and here's a helpful reminder of the forum rules: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28823.0.html
If you are going to discuss the topic (which was created because the original was getting derailed), then discuss it.
Don't flame the opinions of other people and troll them.
I just learned I am blamed for single-handedly emptying out the Sanctuary of Bynners, halfbreeds, and other dung sweepers who cant even afford a drink there.
I am filled with a bit of pride, and a bit of sadness, but mostly just pride.
(True or not, at least someone is blaming me for it. Thats more glorious than anything I could have hoped for. 8) )
It's ok. We love you anyway... Well, not really. :-D
Quote from: tortall on October 08, 2008, 10:35:15 PM
It's ok. We love you anyway... Well, not really. :-D
Your post count is too low for your input on such a matter. :-\
<3 D-Man.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 08, 2008, 10:41:28 PM
Quote from: tortall on October 08, 2008, 10:35:15 PM
It's ok. We love you anyway... Well, not really. :-D
Your post count is too low for your input on such a matter. :-\
<3 D-Man.
It makes perfect sense really. I have to grow on people slowly, like a rancid festering life-draining mold. But eventually, I grow on them.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on Today at 02:41:28 pmYour post count is too low for your input on such a matter.
Pft, I've been playing since 2001. Most of my ramblings were done in IRC back when it was popular.
Quote from: tortall on October 08, 2008, 10:59:40 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on Today at 02:41:28 pmYour post count is too low for your input on such a matter.
Pft, I've been playing since 2001. Most of my ramblings were done in IRC back when it was popular.
Fair enough.
Quote from: tortall on October 08, 2008, 10:59:40 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on Today at 02:41:28 pmYour post count is too low for your input on such a matter.
Pft, I've been playing since 2001. Most of my ramblings were done in IRC back when it was popular.
Keep in mind the recent 4 year break. ;)
Quote from: Desertman on: Today at 03:10:51 pmKeep in mind the recent 4 year break.
Shhhhh, don't let them know that. ;-)
Still, 4 years of playing time and rambling on IRC should be worth a good ammount, right?
But yes. The Sanctuary. The topic. The Tooth is nifty. Someone should do something big there.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 08, 2008, 10:41:28 PM
Quote from: tortall on October 08, 2008, 10:35:15 PM
It's ok. We love you anyway... Well, not really. :-D
Your post count is too low for your input on such a matter. :-\
<3 D-Man.
BACK OFF MAN, SHE'S A 21ster!
Quote from: mansa on: Today at 04:02:15 pmBACK OFF MAN, SHE'S A 21ster!
I should know what that is.... Right?
Edit: Yes, totally know what that is! I'm only 2 hours behind mansa. WOO ME..... And I'm at the top of the second page! Mansa is just full of useful information.
Quote from: tortall on October 08, 2008, 11:58:08 PM
Quote from: Desertman on: Today at 03:10:51 pmKeep in mind the recent 4 year break.
Shhhhh, don't let them know that. ;-)
Still, 4 years of playing time and rambling on IRC should be worth a good ammount, right?
But yes. The Sanctuary. The topic. The Tooth is nifty. Someone should do something big there.
Were you around for the ginka sauce wrestling there?
It was epic. I highly recommend another one.
I wasn't! I wish I had seen that.
I am sure it was completly inapproprate though.
~scrunches up her face~ I need on auto spell checker. ~heart zmud~
I just want to clarify.
My goal here was not to empty out the Sanctuary so the upper-crest citizens wouldnt have anyone to play with.
That was not my intention.
I just personally think that lower income individuals should stick to lower income taverns.
If the Nobles want to make the decision to tolerate the commoner stench for a while to go and do business in some of the more populated but lower income taverns, then that is their choice and their right as Nobles.
I dont want to see Nobles FORCED to put up with lower income commoners stinking up thier lovely Sanctuary while they try to enjoy their wine. If the Nobles feel like tolerating the commoners for a bit and doing business with them, they can make the decision as Nobles to visit those commoner taverns, or to invite specific commoners to the Sanctuary.
I just dont like to see the Nobility forced to tolerate some stinky commoner looming over their expensive meal and fine wine if they dont feel like tolerating that. Most Nobles are too subtle to force a commoner to get the fuck out. Thats what Tuluk's about right? Being subtle and having political veneer?
So, I was just asking the player's of lower-income commoners to take a bit of responsibility and realize most of their characters would/should probably feel uncomfortable hanging out in the ritzy Sanctuary.
Let it be the Noble's/Wealthy Commoner's decision instead of the Low-End DungSweeper/Hunter Commoner's decision.
Quite frankly, I'm not sure anybody gave a shit.
Noble effort and all, but I remain skeptical that it was even needed.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 09, 2008, 06:19:34 PM
Quite frankly, I'm not sure anybody gave a shit.
Noble effort and all, but I remain skeptical that it was even needed.
I know for a fact one person did, so you can be sure that one person did indeed, give a shit, quiet frankly.
Sorry, I forgot to include you in my consideration, there.
Quite frankly.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 09, 2008, 07:44:46 PM
Sorry, I forgot to include you in my consideration, there.
Quite frankly.
Though I'm not the person I was talking about, I completely understand considering the source, and your appology is accepted.
I'll apologize, too.
To be honest, the Sanctuary is one of the largest problems I've always had with Tuluk. The low-class taverns are usually empty because it's considered unremarkable to see a smelly, leather-clad hunter with a gut-knife in his belt and a pack full of uncured hides sitting at the big fancy bar, three feet from the silk-swaddled noble drinking the 500 sid a bottle wine. That is subtly shitty to me, as it robbed the city of that particular class distinction and it always made me feel like the grubby, opressed commoner class in Tuluk didn't exist.
-WP prefers the Gaj, anyway. ;)
Quote from: WarriorPoet on October 11, 2008, 11:24:12 AM
I'll apologize, too.
To be honest, the Sanctuary is one of the largest problems I've always had with Tuluk. The low-class taverns are usually empty because it's considered unremarkable to see a smelly, leather-clad hunter with a gut-knife in his belt and a pack full of uncured hides sitting at the big fancy bar, three feet from the silk-swaddled noble drinking the 500 sid a bottle wine. That is subtly shitty to me, as it robbed the city of that particular class distinction and it always made me feel like the grubby, opressed commoner class in Tuluk didn't exist.
-WP prefers the Gaj, anyway. ;)
Very few of the nobles in Tuluk are "silk-swaddled." In fact, it's not unusual to encounter some of them also in sweaty armor, brushing dust and sand from themselves after a patrol. Their armor might be a lot nicer, but it's still armor. Nor is most of the wine that expensive. In fact, a glass of wine in the Sanctuary is cheaper than a shot of whiskey in other places. I think this is a basic flaw in most people's thinking. In Tuluk it's not so much about what you look like or what you wear. It's how you present yourself and how interesting your conversation is, and how much you contribute.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 08, 2008, 10:41:28 PM
Quote from: tortall on October 08, 2008, 10:35:15 PM
It's ok. We love you anyway... Well, not really. :-D
Your post count is too low for your input on such a matter. :-\
<3 D-Man.
I don't think spamming up the boards qualifies you as wise or sage-like, or validates an opinion.
Quote from: Kiri on October 11, 2008, 02:40:52 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on October 11, 2008, 11:24:12 AM
I'll apologize, too.
To be honest, the Sanctuary is one of the largest problems I've always had with Tuluk. The low-class taverns are usually empty because it's considered unremarkable to see a smelly, leather-clad hunter with a gut-knife in his belt and a pack full of uncured hides sitting at the big fancy bar, three feet from the silk-swaddled noble drinking the 500 sid a bottle wine. That is subtly shitty to me, as it robbed the city of that particular class distinction and it always made me feel like the grubby, opressed commoner class in Tuluk didn't exist.
-WP prefers the Gaj, anyway. ;)
Very few of the nobles in Tuluk are "silk-swaddled." In fact, it's not unusual to encounter some of them also in sweaty armor, brushing dust and sand from themselves after a patrol. Their armor might be a lot nicer, but it's still armor. Nor is most of the wine that expensive. In fact, a glass of wine in the Sanctuary is cheaper than a shot of whiskey in other places. I think this is a basic flaw in most people's thinking. In Tuluk it's not so much about what you look like or what you wear. It's how you present yourself and how interesting your conversation is, and how much you contribute.
This should be considered.
I think the basic mode of thought for people is that they read the room description of the Sanc, see that it looks very posh, and assume that only people equally posh need to be in there, and those that aren't stand out in a bad way.
How correct or incorrect that mode of thinking is, I can't say; but I think the root of the conception comes from the way the Sanctuary is described.
Quote from: musashi on October 11, 2008, 04:12:04 PM
I think the basic mode of thought for people is that they read the room description of the Sanc, see that it looks very posh, and assume that only people equally posh need to be in there, and those that aren't stand out in a bad way.
How correct or incorrect that mode of thinking is, I can't say; but I think the root of the conception comes from the way the Sanctuary is described.
It has always made perfect sense to me to walk into a five star restaurant wearing cut-off blue-jean shorts, flip-flops, and a wife beater with holes in it. Of course, I always make sure my garb is clear of dust/sweat/blood tags before I go in, and they seat me every time.
/sarcasm
Dude, drop it. The Staff has already spoken, and laid out guidelines.
I am oppressed.
Quote from: Desertman on October 14, 2008, 01:33:20 PM
I am oppressed.
Did you see that... huh? Help, help! I am being repressed...
Sorry, can never resist throwing in a Monty Python quote.
Quote from: Yam on October 14, 2008, 06:33:55 PM
It's about damn time.
Another snarky, pointless, one liner from Yam out of the blue. Please, everyone try to refrain from showing your surprise.
Quote from: Desertman on October 14, 2008, 06:36:49 PM
Quote from: Yam on October 14, 2008, 06:33:55 PM
It's about damn time.
Another snarky, pointless, one liner from Yam out of the blue. Please, everyone try to refrain from showing your surprise.
It's about damn time.
Quote from: Yam on October 14, 2008, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 14, 2008, 06:36:49 PM
Quote from: Yam on October 14, 2008, 06:33:55 PM
It's about damn time.
Another snarky, pointless, one liner from Yam out of the blue. Please, everyone try to refrain from showing your surprise.
It's about damn time.
Good one. :D
Not to wake this thread... but there are quite a few people in the Tembos Tooth these days.
Well, I didn't know this. I'd have to thank Desertman for bringing up the topic. Yeah, it seems that the Sanctuary is better left for rich people, but I'd rather it be out of the way, instead of the tavern that all new guys spawn in. Or maybe it's better for proper Tuluki citizens to be there, not the foreigners.
Now all those things they've been saying about the Sanctuary makes sense :P
Yeah, I'd prefer all of the sloppier shit-covered people like myself being in the Tooth. It just seems right.
I've long thought newbies in Tuluk should spawn in The Firestorm Pub. It usually isn't too crowded, so you don't feel conspicuous in your noobie pants. It is a commoner pub, but it isn't aggressively low class, it is just a place people stop for lunch when they go to the shopping quarter, so it isn't objectionable for people of any class to go there. It is close to shopping, and most PCs like to do a little shopping right away.
The only downside to the Firestorm is that it is often empty of PCs, as are the adjacent rooms. This could give new Players the idea that there are no players around at all. Spawning in your town's busiest tavern increases the chance that new players will see that there are active players around. I like to take a couple hours to get myself centered before interacting with other PCs, but some people prefer to interact with other humans as quickly as possible.
Most places I've been to IRL involving food don't give a care as to how you look, just as long as you pay the bill at the end of the night.
Then again, said places usually don't have the equivalent of nobility there, nor do I usually walk in with crapped-in pants and a bleeding arm.
Quote from: Angela Christine on January 05, 2009, 08:48:58 AM
I've long thought newbies in Tuluk should spawn in The Firestorm Pub. It usually isn't too crowded, so you don't feel conspicuous in your noobie pants. It is a commoner pub, but it isn't aggressively low class, it is just a place people stop for lunch when they go to the shopping quarter, so it isn't objectionable for people of any class to go there. It is close to shopping, and most PCs like to do a little shopping right away.
The only downside to the Firestorm is that it is often empty of PCs, as are the adjacent rooms. This could give new Players the idea that there are no players around at all. Spawning in your town's busiest tavern increases the chance that new players will see that there are active players around. I like to take a couple hours to get myself centered before interacting with other PCs, but some people prefer to interact with other humans as quickly as possible.
It might serve to make the Sanctuary not as 'hoidy-toidy', and the firestorm, a bit more upscale. So that Nobles feel comfortable traveling to both.
Quote from: Desertman on September 30, 2008, 12:38:21 PM
Maybe it makes perfect fucking sense for blood-spattered smelly hunters and fully armored mercenaries to spend their days sitting in the ritzy Sanctuary.
I've been kicked out of Sanctuary for having a bit of blood on one piece of gear by the militia, whenever present.
I'm pretty sure anyone can sit in the Sanctuary until someone of His legions comes to make them dissappear.
If you don't like filthy, dirty hunters in the Sanctuary - Be an abiding Tuluki and kick their asses out.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on January 05, 2009, 08:47:06 PM
If you don't like filthy, dirty hunters in the Sanctuary - Be an abiding Tuluki and kick their asses out.
The best solution so far. Handle it IC ;)