Armageddon General Discussion Board

Amongst ourselves (the staff), we have been discussing various ideas for tweaking/improving the in-game experience of clan cooks.  There are a handful of advantages and disadvantages to the current system, from an IC and OOC perspective.  Having discussed possible alternatives for a while now, we've come up with a few.

We'd like to know which of these alternatives you prefer, or if you have your own ideas.

It's worth noting that this does not reflect on cooks already in place which serve the nobility, or high-ranking merchant family members.  Mainly we're talking about the grunts of the house, low-level employees and so on.

I'll elaborate on the alternatives I've put in the poll:

1. Remove them entirely -- no more clan cooks.  Let employees find food on their own.  This might need to be counter by an increase in pay for some clans.
2. Cooks only remove hunger -- this would mean that, if you went to a clan cook for food, they would "virtually" serve you food, leaving you satiated, but not actually give you a piece of food you can carry with you.
3. Cooks deliver crappier food -- this would mean that instead of getting fresh fruit and hearty steaks, you might get hard-tack (biscuits) or leftovers, gristle, and so on (perhaps slightly better, perhaps slightly worse, perhaps even way worse).  The food would still alleviate hunger, but it would not be appetizing or salable.
4. Leave them the same -- hopefully this doesn't need much explanation.
5. Other -- give us your own ideas.

Obviously, for some clans, these ideas might have to be tweaked a bit to be reasonable.  For the most part, what I'm interested in is having your overall gut feeling on the matter, not in what you'd do specifically with each clan (too IC, anyway).

-- X

I can't choose specifically.

The options that appeal to me are:
1. Remove them entirely
2. Leave them the same

In regards to the first, the amount of huntable game and the amount of meat from each kill needs to go up a great deal. This particularly applies in the South. In the north, only the amount from each kill needs to be adjusted. Vegetables and fruits are also things that need to be much better represented, in both the North and the South. This helps two things: it forces minor low-level adventure, and it enhances the call of cooks.

Otherwise, I think the current situation is fine. The cook in my clan already delivers crappy food to the lower ranks. In fact, it's really crappy, and I frankly would rather see variety.

I'll vote to remove them entirely, but you must note the stipulations.

This might be an idea for V.2 but...

Make it so that cooks can be "brought out" under certain circumstances. One possibility would be to codedly link a foodbin to a cook NPC. If the bin is empty, the cook comes out. I have been in a city-based clan that had no clan cook, and it was extremely difficult to keep up with the food bin. The employees were -mostly- working in, out of, and hired by the opposite city's part of the clan. So getting to where the food was actually needed took a lot of OOC coordination for RP times, all to feed a single PC who happened to not work with the rest of us. And she had an IC boss, who had access to a coded cook, who -could've- filled up the bin for her and just let us know that next time we came down to stock up.

It's also crazy hard when you're dealing with a lot of people who are *not* rangers. Only rangers start out with a decent skinning skill, and only rangers can forage food. So if you are relying on 5 newbie warriors to take down enough food to feed all five, plus 2 crafters, and one PC merchant, chances are you're gonna be eating a LOT of travel cakes and kalan fruits for a very long time.

But, if you raise the salaries to cover the pay for food, you give them less reason to get meat. And you give less need for any of those people to be rangers.

So I'd like to see some way of tying the "current accessability to PC-acquired food" with "NPC Cook."

I would also ask if this has anything to do with the way in which water is currently handled. Would we also be forced to gather our own water, or would that continue to be provided?

I voted "Other" because I would like to keep NPC cooks that deliver actual food-objects for the following reasons:

• NPC cooks are extremely useful for greasing the wheels of a clan's infrastructure.  Despite play times, off-peak players, and the ebb and flow of certain characters, PC's who are part of the organization can get the very basics to keep alive and progressing as they interact with the game world.
• I enjoy food objects and eating those foods.  Slurping a bowl of stew, tearing off a hunk of bread, cutting into a tandu sausage, it's a prop that can be used to aid in the display of several different moods.
• NPC Cooks are a nice buffer between the virtual and NPC world of a clan, giving that organization a sense of size and scope beyond the coded representatives.  Room echoes detailing hunters bringing in food to the cooks, employees lining up for their portion, and other such messages can help enhance the atmosphere and make a person feel part of something larger than themselves.

Here are some potential changes/suggestions:

• Give NPC cooks a limit of food that can be dispensed every few IC hours or perhaps every IC day.  Then someone hoarding the food or taking more than their share can create some internal conflict with the rest of the clan members, which is always good.
• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.
• Give clans the ability to ration out the amount of food a cook will serve based on clan ranks.  For example, perhaps Runners in the T'zai-Byn only get one bowl of stew every 3 IC hours.

I'm sure there are plenty of other good suggestions, but those are ones that come immediately to mind.

-LoD

Quote from: Xygax on September 11, 2008, 03:14:07 PM
There are a handful of advantages and disadvantages to the current system, from an IC and OOC perspective. 

I don't really feel I can give an opinion without knowing what the staff thinks the problem is.

Problems I've seen in the current system:
-- Clans which rely on hunters to get food for grunts are screwed if there are no hunters, or no game, or neither of those things where the PCs who need the food are.
-- Clans which rely on NPC cooks to provide food for grunts are sometimes dependent on leaders to acquire that food in order to then turn around and provide it to the grunts. Burdensome on leaders.
-- Clans which provide no food at all will probably under-pay. Does Amos get the same salary as Malik, even though he plays twice as much and therefore requires twice as much coded food?
-- Playing in a clan which provides no food can feel really burdensome. One of the supposed advantages to being clanned is that type of support. If it goes away, that's less incentive for PCs to be clanned. (Not everyone enjoys scraping for food or doing their own cooking.)
-- Another disadvantage to clans providing no coded food is that trips out of the city--on RPTs or whatever--become that much more problematic to arrange. It's already difficult to make sure every minion is toting food and water.

I guess my gut feel is that I'm very against clans not providing any coded food at all. But I can't say what I'm for since I don't know what the staff's design goal is.

Make food recipes a lot more accessible to everyone and a subclass dedicated to being a cook and I can guarantee you that you'll see plenty of PCs who are just happy to be "cooks" in game.

I know for a fact that on Harshlands and SoI, the role of a cook is always a very popular one, for some reason, a certain group of players just enjoy taking care of others and being a "motherly" figure.

The problem on Arm is that it's so hard to come up with recipes that people mostly give up after figuring out how to make travel cakes.

My idea --> I think that PCs who take the "cook" subclass should have access to a special NPC that would only give them ingredients to cook with, and no one else but the flagged cook could use said ingredients
to cook for others in the clan.

Quote from: Malken on September 11, 2008, 03:38:39 PM
Make food recipes a lot more accessible to everyone and a subclass dedicated to being a cook and I can guarantee you that you'll see plenty of PCs who are just happy to be "cooks" in game.

I would play the hell out of that.  I'm a food nerd (on top of an English and music nerd), so this appeals to me mightily.

Quote from: Malken on September 11, 2008, 03:38:39 PMMy idea --> I think that PCs who take the "cook" subclass should have access to a special NPC that would only give them ingredients to cook with, and no one else but the flagged cook could use said ingredients
to cook for others in the clan.

Perhaps have this linked not to the character's subguild, but to a new clan role, "Cook."  It can likely be assumed that there are NPC hunters also bringing in ingredients, so there can be an NPC that can hand out ingredients to anyone assigned the Cook job, for that person to cook up and put somewhere for clan members.

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 03:31:57 PM

• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.

I like this one a great deal.

In fact, this one suggestion right here is the best senario possible. The best of both worlds is embodied here.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 11, 2008, 03:42:45 PM

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 03:31:57 PM

• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.

I like this one a great deal.

As do I.

I also remain in favor of a Cook subguild with a high starting skill in cooking and perhaps a bonus to obtaining meat while skinning and food while foraging (as any well-trained real-life cook is able to break down an animal carcass fairly well, as well as being able to recognize good, fresh ingredients in a variety of contexts).

I agree with LOD's and Note's ideas.

Quote from: Delstro on September 11, 2008, 03:55:16 PM
I agree with LOD's and Note's ideas.

Thoughts:
(a) Is there a problem with people selling clan food?  If so, I'd rather see quantities limited and offenders punished.  Most clans have stuff more valuable than food to steal, I'd think.
(b) Many employees need to pack food when they leave the walls: not a good match for idea #2.
(c) Is clan food "too rich" for commoners?  What I've seen is quite appetizing, but that's one of the benefits of joining a clan, I'd suppose.
(d) Cooks could provide a basic menu to recruits/grunts/privates and offer more delicate items to officers and other superiors.
(e) Cooks could refuse to provide food to low-level employees except at dawn, noon, and dusk.  Or they might provide only nasty scraps at other times.
(f) Cooks could charge a small fee per meal (in conjunction with a salary tweak), and provide travel ration packs to officer PCs to be issued as appropriate.

Looking very wrothsome, the rugged, lovelocked man asks you, in sirihish,
  "How'n the Krath did you 'lose' yer RATION PACK?"

I'd love to see meals served at particular times from a varying menu.  On plates.  With a small allowance of disgusting liquor.  Attempting to steal plates from said cook would make the cook...angry.  And you really don't want to make your clan cook angry.

I've twice played non-combat characters in clans without NPC cooks. It wasn't pleasant. Take the fun of having to nag your boss for sids, and double it. That's how it felt.

I feel like the economy is already tipped in favor of independents in a big way, so I think we should keep that in mind.

On the other hand, it would be a plus for realism and a boon for rangers. I just think it's really bad for playability, in my experience.

My suggestion: Limit how much an NPC cook would give out to about enough food to get from starving up to full in any given day, or something like that. Or two of each item. Or whatever. Maybe also consider flagging clan food so that it can't be sold in shops.

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 03:31:57 PM

• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.

To expound:

>ask cook help
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I offer gut stew, dried beetle jerky, or a gribage."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I've got nothing in the bin right now, though, so that's all you can get."

>offer flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Hmmm. I can make a tender flank of carru from that."

>sell flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Thanks."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man sets a bloody flank of meat on a bone grill.

(crafting delay)

The pudgy, worn-eyed man puts a grilled flank of carru meat into a wooden food bin.

>get meat bin
The pudgy, worn-eyed man won't let anyone near the wooden food bin.

>ask cook help
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I offer gut stew, dried beetle jerky, or a gribage."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I've got a grilled flank of carru meat in the bin, too."

>offer horn
After a moment, the pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Yeh, I can't do nothing with that."

Have clan cooks give out a single "meal" object that would provide a reasonable amount of filling-up, but can only be requested once or twice per day. Also have clan cooks infinitely give out smaller, relatively boring foods that PCs can still carry with them. In my mind this is sort of a "leave it how it is + clan cooks remove hunger" combination.

'ask cook help' "I have a meal of mekillot steak with raptor nuggets on the side, or you can have bread, grilled skeet, or cheese."

'ask cook meal' The cook gives you a plate of mekillot steak with raptor nuggets.

You are very hungry.

'eat meal' You are no longer hungry.

'ask cook meal' (again) The cook says to you, "I remember you... you had your meal already! You have to wait x hours before you're entitled to another."

Flag the meal so it gets ruined if you put it in a container, so you don't have an ultra-light instant Lifesaver handy, and you're set.

I always found it strange that mere hunters were fed unlimited amounts of honey-glazed, ginka-sauced bahamet steaks, when you consider that the ingredients used for one portion of that meal is probably more than
they'd make in a week, if not month, of work..

Clan food is good because regularly, food is far too expensive or harder to come by than it should be.  The benefits of clan food are that they keep you fed, even if you're an offpeak crafter in a clan with no hunters.  The drawbacks are that some clan foods are so fancy, why WOULDN'T you take some food home to stock up on or to pass out to friends?  I currently only rarely cook anything, ever, because it's far too expensive and time consuming to craft a bunch of raw food into worthless crap (that doesn't feed me better even when I do do it right), ESPECIALLY when I can get a nice, hearty, healthy prepared meal from a clan chef.  In a style far better than anything my character could reasonably expect to make.

In the absence of a major overhaul (for which I would favor a more limited clan food system like one of those discussed) I would vote for having crappier clan food.  It would keep people fed even if they can't reasonably feed themselves, but without the availability of crazy-wealthy-style foods in some clans that is just mind boggling.

Brytta and flurry summed up my thoughts pretty nicely.

What are the problems driving discussion on this change? I wonder if there might be other solutions that don't involve clan cooks at all.

Limiting the amount of food isn't helpful to any clan that has members going out on long missions away from the cook. If the group is out, they don't know that they'll encounter - and successfully kill and skin - enough meaty critters to feed the entire group during the entire time they're out.

Also I like the idea of making NPC-made clan food unsellable in markets.

Have them remove hunger.

I get tired of spam-eating three bowls of "8-eats-per-bowl" Byn stew.

Not a fan of OOC restrictions on IC items.

Fill hunger + low-quality "always available" items is the best compromise I see.

It depends on the Clan.

Big mess hall type places, should have somewhere you can go in and get your 'hunger' sated. Having them just give crappy food that you then have to eat 20 servings of only makes for spam. It would leave more room for roleplaying too, eating at your own pace.

I think there are probably too many cook NPCs, and too many give too much of too good of food. So outside mess hall situations, people should need to acquire their own food.

Xygax,

If it is something you can discuss, was there a reason other than what we have mentioned here as to why the staff was considering a change?

-FW

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2008, 05:00:36 PM
Have them remove hunger.

I get tired of spam-eating three bowls of "8-eats-per-bowl" Byn stew.

No.  Hunger and thirst code are good in my opinion if annoying at times.

Brandon

If I worked for someone who was well-to-do and ran a lucrative business I might expect better food: fresh fruit, sweet breads, seasoned meats, etc.

If I worked for someone who was cheap and cared more for profit then the welfare of employees or just an average sort of business I would expect food that was okay but cheap: basic breads, basic meats, nuts, etc.

If I worked for someone who had a poor business or didn't care at all for their employees I would expect very cheap or barely edible rations: old dried meat, stale breads, gruel, etc.

I do like:

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 03:31:57 PM

• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.

I would like to see more pc cooks. I would also like to see more craftable foods that are not clan-only. Or if kept clan-only with particular recipes, it makes no IC sense to be able to make a fruit cake one day and if your job ends not be able to do it the next. If you learn a recipe by joining a clan, if you successfully can make it, it shouldn't just 'poof' out of your memory.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2008, 05:00:36 PM
I get tired of spam-eating three bowls of "8-eats-per-bowl" Byn stew.

I could've sworn there was some code developed that allowed your character to eat an entire food object without the in-between stages?  Something like <eat bread all> or something that was implemented back when people complained about the spam generated by people eating massive bites of food?

-LoD

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 05:33:16 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2008, 05:00:36 PM
I get tired of spam-eating three bowls of "8-eats-per-bowl" Byn stew.

I could've sworn there was some code developed that allowed your character to eat an entire food object without the in-between stages?  Something like <eat bread all> or something that was implemented back when people complained about the spam generated by people eating massive bites of food?

-LoD

If there is that's the first I've heard of it.

Brandon

I think that is only in SoI.

Quote from: FuSoYa on September 11, 2008, 05:25:01 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2008, 05:00:36 PM
Have them remove hunger.

I get tired of spam-eating three bowls of "8-eats-per-bowl" Byn stew.

No.  Hunger and thirst code are good in my opinion if annoying at times.

Brandon

I would like to see a command called devour, with a minor delay, that would finish off a food item, instead of cooks that sate hunger. I agree that eatting spam is annoying.

I do not want the system of NPC cooks to change at all. Every clan I've ever played in has had more than one cook: one that provides certain items to low-ranked PCs, one (typically in the officer's barracks / manor / what-have-you) that provides fancier items to the leaders/highbloods.

One suggestion that I do have, however, is that food be made more filling, overall. I know some foods already are quite filling, but I hate seeing this:

> You are very hungry.

> You eat a bowl of soup. [That you have to 'eat' three times.]

> You eat a bowl of soup. [That you have to 'eat' three times.]

> You eat a bowl of soup. [That you have to 'eat' three times.]

> You eat a breaded and fried kalan fruit. [That you have to 'eat' twelve times.]

> You are full.

Should it really take -that- much spam-eating to bring my character up from a state of hunger that isn't starvation?

Edit: And to add, I don't want the quality of food given by NPC cooks to change, either. I like the fact that the food is fancy. It reinforces the belief that working for a merchant or noble house is a highly-coveted position that most commoners would be lucky to even dream of having.

Quote from: Fathi on September 11, 2008, 11:03:01 PM
One suggestion that I do have, however, is that food be made more filling, overall. I know some foods already are quite filling, but I hate seeing this:

> You are very hungry.

> You eat a bowl of soup. [That you have to 'eat' three times.]

> You eat a bowl of soup. [That you have to 'eat' three times.]

> You eat a bowl of soup. [That you have to 'eat' three times.]

> You eat a breaded and fried kalan fruit. [That you have to 'eat' twelve times.]

> You are full.

Should it really take -that- much spam-eating to bring my character up from a state of hunger that isn't starvation?

I like this suggestion. For those that want to eat slowly, there are emotes and "taste". I'd like eat to result in the entire food object being consumed in one command.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 12, 2008, 12:55:23 AM
For those that want to eat slowly, there are emotes and "taste". I'd like eat to result in the entire food object being consumed in one command.

Hey. Now this I dig.

I don't think it's broke. Don't fix it.

I think it should either stay as is, or if it is changed, I'd like to see it reflect the local game and crops as the menu items. Maybe have a limit on the more expensive items (like steaks and ginka foods), not to completely exclude them, but to limit it to maybe one per day of each, and let you 'fill up' on the less expensive/fancy things, while still allowing you a reasonable taste of the good stuff.

I think that what is served should depend greatly on the resources and philosphies of the clan.
I voted it depends thinking some clans shoul dhave better food and some should have worse. But then I realized that complaining about the food can be fun. More appropriate for some outfits than others though.
I'd like to change my vote to stay the same. Or evaluate on a clan by clan cook by cook basis.

The Byn stew really needs more genitals in it.

Quote from: Yam on September 12, 2008, 07:35:10 AM
The Byn stew really needs more genitals in it.

Mess Hall [W]
A few stone tables lay scattered about the room.
A robust, sandy-blond woman is here, stirring a large pot.
A slender, black-haired manservant is here, cleaning tables.
The husky, fork-bearded man is here, sitting at a stone table.
The broad-shouldered, muscular man is here, sitting at a stone table.
The willowy, green-eyed man is standing here.

Laughing coarsely, the husky, fork-bearded man speaks to the broad-shouldered, muscular man at a stone table.

The willowy, green-eyed man nervously sniffs at a bowl of stew cradled in his hands.

Eyes widening in disgust, the willowy, green-eyed man exclaims, in sirihish:
   "There are escru testicles in this!"

Glancing up from his table, the husky, fork-bearded man exclaims, in sirihish:
   "Wait wait -- WAIT!"

Tilting his head toward a robust, sandy-blond woman, the husky, fork-bearded man asks, in sirihish:
   "He got MORE than one?  What the fuck!?  He's just a runner!"

Searching his stew, disappointment evident in his tone, the broad-shouldered, muscular man says, in sirihish:
   "So much fer the small perks..."

Quote from: LoD on September 12, 2008, 10:11:01 AM

Quote from: Yam on September 12, 2008, 07:35:10 AM
The Byn stew really needs more genitals in it.

Mess Hall [W]
A few stone tables lay scattered about the room.
A robust, sandy-blond woman is here, stirring a large pot.
A slender, black-haired manservant is here, cleaning tables.
The husky, fork-bearded man is here, sitting at a stone table.
The broad-shouldered, muscular man is here, sitting at a stone table.
The willowy, green-eyed man is standing here.

Laughing coarsely, the husky, fork-bearded man speaks to the broad-shouldered, muscular man at a stone table.

The willowy, green-eyed man nervously sniffs at a bowl of stew cradled in his hands.

Eyes widening in disgust, the willowy, green-eyed man exclaims, in sirihish:
   "There are escru testicles in this!"

Glancing up from his table, the husky, fork-bearded man exclaims, in sirihish:
   "Wait wait -- WAIT!"

Tilting his head toward a robust, sandy-blond woman, the husky, fork-bearded man asks, in sirihish:
   "He got MORE than one?  What the fuck!?  He's just a runner!"

Searching his stew, disappointment evident in his tone, the broad-shouldered, muscular man says, in sirihish:
   "So much fer the small perks..."

You guys ever wondered why the cooks at both Byn compounds are female?

> l e (toward the mess hall)

The chubby, apron-wearing man stands upon a table here, teabagging a crock of stew as it cools.

OMG!!!

Stay on topic!!! (That was funny as hell, though.)

If clan cooks were removed, I'd at least demand a greater degree of success in basic processing of food.  For instance, smoking and just plain cooking.  As it stands, those processes can be quite tiresome if even a third is lost or turns out burned.

Also, the other forms of food would need to become more available as well.  Some shops should sell preserved meat and veggies on the cheap, and the variety of plant foods in general should see a drastic increase.  As it stands, the only place that has a good balance of food is Red Storm.

I agree with Dalmeth.

I voted should just fill you up, and that is hunger and thirst I hope.

But hell, if removing them meant that every class would get a boost to cooking, then I'd vote REMOVE THE BITCHES!!!

The current arbitrary maxes to cooking based on class is silly to an extreme.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 11, 2008, 04:07:34 PM
Thoughts:

(f) Cooks could charge a small fee per meal (in conjunction with a salary tweak), and provide travel ration packs to officer PCs to be issued as appropriate.

I voted "other."  I think clan cooks should be "merchants" who sell food items cheaply to clan members.  Further, Every rank of the clan should get a different list.  Military ranks should be able to buy ration-packs.  And all of them should remove hunger as a 0 coin option with the emote based on rank.

That's my take.

Morrolan

Quote from: Malken on September 11, 2008, 03:38:39 PM
I know for a fact that on Harshlands and SoI, the role of a cook is always a very popular one, for some reason, a certain group of players just enjoy taking care of others and being a "motherly" figure.

Done that, had to spend a min of 3 OOC hours a -day- to keep everyone even remotely close to being fed (...I failed about half of the time).  And everyone that's played with me knows that I like tidying and cooking and that sort of stuff.

Personally, one of the best things about being in a clan was not having to ever worry about food or water.  Don't take away the cooks!  Don't change their food to virtual grub - its nice to be able to scowl down at a lowly rinther over your ever-so-tasty tandu sausage (or whatever).  Don't change it to be 'included' in pay, since in some clans, the recruits don't get paid at all, and even when you do start getting paid, you need to actually see your boss/leader, and if you're offpeak, you'll starve many days before that happens!

Ergo, I'm all for keeping them as they are!

Quote from: Kyviantre on September 17, 2008, 09:12:04 AM
Don't change it to be 'included' in pay, since in some clans, the recruits don't get paid at all, and even when you do start getting paid, you need to actually see your boss/leader, and if you're offpeak, you'll starve many days before that happens!

Good point.  It's easy for pay to lag several "months" at a time.

I don't see any reason to change them to something other than what they are currently. My reasons are basically the same as put forth by others in this thread.
I would much rather see changes to food so that characters don't have to eat insane amounts of food in order to get full. It should be more realistic and food items shouldn't take spamming commands to eat.

I wouldn't mind if food items filled you up the same amount (because I remember when food was crazy worse than it is now, the first time I played), but I would like a 'devour' command.  So that I can just shove that kalan fruit in my maw, peel and all, and be done with it.

Kalan seeds are more poisonous than halfling hugs.

I am against pretty much anything "Insta-Gifted" with no apparent real time economical stand point.

What I mean is I dont like the idea of cooks dishing out hundreds of meals to people, but bank accounts for Houses and the like never seeing a decrease for it.

I would be in favor of getting rid of clan cooks and instead forcing them to buy/hunt/harvest their own supplies based on their own IC economic virtues.

Not only is it more realistic, it would open up a ton of jobs in several clans...Hunters, Cooks, Supply/Quartermaster Personnel.

Right now we have "Insta-Food" NPC's that are cutting out the potential for a lot of realism and RP opportunities for the sake of unrealistic convenience.

(I hate anything done with "Virtual Money". Sure you can argue that the cooks get the food by spending virtual money from virtual bank accounts that the clans are supposed to have, but in the end, I hate that, just a personal opinion.)

When I am part of/run indy groups, we always work together to supply ourselves and its a beautiful thing.

The major clan PC's shouldnt be denied such a fun opportunity, and IMO, thats exactly what insta-cooks do in many ways.

Sure I would still want to see VNPC clan populations and NPC clan populations work off the assumption that they are taking the correct measures to keep themselves and thier specific units/branches supplies, but the PC's, I would like them to become VERY responsible for handling and planning their own supplies.

Its just more fun than "Insta-Cook" magick to do it that way for me.

Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

Also, any of you that have ever asked the cook in the northern Kadian compound for food, you know that it is completely possible to run an entire clan based on nothing other than PC harvesting.

One branch of a clan already does it in fact and I have never seen a clan memeber starve to death yet.

Will some Houses have to go through the extra expense of hiring hunters and cooks to supply their pc ranks?

Yes.

Is that a bad thing?

Well, I guess it might be if you like spending your stipends and virtual House pay on nothing but jewelry and silk instead of hiring pc's.

(That is an entirely different issue for me as well. When you accept a special app family member/noble/templar/high ranking military personnel, it is not your job to wander around with your uber coinage ect and further how "cool" and "badass" your special app PC is. You got that role to increase the enjoyment of the rest of the playerbase, in many ways you are a mini-IMM and you should act like it. That pc wasnt given to you for only your own enjoyment, it was also given to you and intrusted to you with the understanding that you would use it and all of its resources to create fun things for the more mundane pc's to enjoy.)

Quote from: Desertman on September 18, 2008, 01:41:44 PM
Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

My impression of the Byn is that they're a bit short on contracts as it is, and that their mecernary philosophy pride compels them to earn their livings by the sword, not by grebbing, hunting and crafting.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 18, 2008, 04:31:04 PM

Quote from: Desertman on September 18, 2008, 01:41:44 PM
Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

My impression of the Byn is that they're a bit short on contracts as it is, and that their mecernary philosophy pride compels them to earn their livings by the sword, not by grebbing, hunting and crafting.

I guess that really depends on Byn leaders.

Personally, I have never had a Byn leader who was short on contracts.

Every Byn leader I have ever played got me in trouble with my wife, because of contracts almost every night of the week that seem to always interrupt my RL priorities.

Perhaps this would be a way of usurping those "not so productive icly" leaders.

Actually, if I was a Byn merc and my Sarge wasnt getting us any contracts, Sarge would have an accident.

In fact, I have had a Sergeant who has had an accident because they werent bringing in the coin.

*shrugs*

There are also IC measures that can be taken by leaders who so choose and have the drive that will allot funds for their employees and still uphold the mercenary honor system regardless of "Who's Hiring".

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 18, 2008, 04:31:04 PM

Quote from: Desertman on September 18, 2008, 01:41:44 PM
Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

My impression of the Byn is that they're a bit short on contracts as it is, and that their mecernary philosophy pride compels them to earn their livings by the sword, not by grebbing, hunting and crafting.

The reason I don't care for the Byn personally... (I love interacting with them, I love the players, and the IMMs that worked hard to make it what it is, and am not bashing it when I say this) ...is they have always seem such an OOC organization to me.  It's like having two choices when you start a combat PC:

1. Join the Byn, get buff combat skills, free food/water, even a little cash on the side.  Stay in a game year, then either stay in, or leave and start playing your PC.
2. Jump right in and start playing out your PC's story line.


I KNOW this is NOT the case most of the time, that is just how I see it.  I think the Byn should have to gather their food by hunting just like the merchant house hunters have to.  Their training schedule has always seemed a little spammy when compared to all the other coded clans.  I don't believe a PC population should be able to live off of the work of a virtual population.  If their sense of pride is too high for such things they should work harder at getting contracts or starve to death like the rest of us do when we don't have food to eat.

just my opinion,
FW

The job of a Bynner is not hunting, unless the Byn has a contract to hunt.

The job of a Bynner is to work merc contracts.

So making them hunt would be stupid.

PCs should always spend their time doing whatever their job is, not something else. Players don't make mercs if they want to play hunters, they make hunters. If I want to play a soldier, likewise, I want to play a soldier, not a hunter. Ditto any kind of job.

But if an indy merchant doesn't make anything, he doesn't eat.
If a hunter decides to eat, he doesn't eat.
If a thief doesn't steal anything he doesn't eat.
If a guard doesn't have anythone to guard, he doesn't eat.

If a bynner doesn't have a contract for two months, he just ask cook stew.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 05:29:38 PM
But if an indy merchant doesn't make anything, he doesn't eat.
If a hunter decides to eat, he doesn't eat.
If a thief doesn't steal anything he doesn't eat.
If a guard doesn't have anythone to guard, he doesn't eat.

If a bynner doesn't have a contract for two months, he just ask cook stew.

An indie merchant and a Bynner are not equivalent, nor are a thief and a Bynner. A Bynner belongs to an organization of hundreds of other mercenaries, and has some recognized status and organizational protection inside ALL cities on Zalanthas. Even if that one Bynner's unit is not currently pulling down contracts because their Sergeant is an incompetent asswipe, you can bet your bippy that the 70 other units are, and they're covering what's needed.

Widen your mind about the virtual world. It's far bigger than you are thinking.

Remove hunger.  Oh god.  Please.

I had to eat about seven bowls of stew to reach 'full' from 'a little hungry'.

Waddled about with a distended stomach.

Reminded me of the scene with that fat man in 'The Meaning of Life'.

That's alotta stew.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 18, 2008, 05:50:46 PM
Widen your mind about the virtual world. It's far bigger than you are thinking.

My original argument stated that I do understand this that the Byn has many virtual groups.
My original argument stated that:

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 05:09:05 PM

I don't believe a PC population should be able to live off of the work of a virtual population.  If their sense of pride is too high for such things they should work harder at getting contracts or starve to death like the rest of us do when we don't have food to eat.

As Desert man said, if they had to provide for themselves, you would end up with better sergeants, that made sure his runners had more to do besides spar and clean the toilets every day.  The might even get to RP with the rest of the PC population and let the virtual runners clean the john.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 06:26:42 PM
As Desert man said, if they had to provide for themselves, you would end up with better sergeants, that made sure his runners had more to do besides spar and clean the toilets every day.  The might even get to RP with the rest of the PC population and let the virtual runners clean the john.

You just don't understand the function of the Byn in the gameworld, then. Forcing the Byn to hunt its own meat would be a deterrent to them doing the job they're supposed to be doing, as I said previously. A good, creative Sergeant -will- make sure that minions have more to do than spar and RP chores. I know this firsthand, trust me. The solution is not hunting.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 18, 2008, 06:34:48 PM

You just don't understand the function of the Byn in the gameworld, then. Forcing the Byn to hunt its own meat would be a deterrent to them doing the job they're supposed to be doing, as I said previously. A good, creative Sergeant -will- make sure that minions have more to do than spar and RP chores. I know this firsthand, trust me. The solution is not hunting.

Gimf wins.

There shouldnt be cooks for Bynners.

They should have to buy their food from the money they get from contracts.

If a Sergeant is making his men and himself so little money that they cant afford to eat, its time for him to have an accident.

With every Byn leader I have ever played, I found I got tired of doing contracts.

I remember sitting around saying..."Shit, I wish I had one night this week where we werent working so I could actually train my men."

If I had to get food in addition to all the other junk as a clan leader, I would probably never take the role.

It really depends on the clan.
I don't think it makes sense for Borsail to send their troops out hunting (for example.)

Quote from: Yam on September 18, 2008, 08:51:14 PM
If I had to get food in addition to all the other junk as a clan leader, I would probably never take the role.

Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 10:59:38 PM

Quote from: Yam on September 18, 2008, 08:51:14 PM
If I had to get food in addition to all the other junk as a clan leader, I would probably never take the role.

Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

No thank you. If you make roles more and more complicated, then they will be less and less fun. K.I.S.S.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 18, 2008, 06:34:48 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 06:26:42 PM
As Desert man said, if they had to provide for themselves, you would end up with better sergeants, that made sure his runners had more to do besides spar and clean the toilets every day.  The might even get to RP with the rest of the PC population and let the virtual runners clean the john.

You just don't understand the function of the Byn in the gameworld, then. Forcing the Byn to hunt its own meat would be a deterrent to them doing the job they're supposed to be doing, as I said previously. A good, creative Sergeant -will- make sure that minions have more to do than spar and RP chores. I know this firsthand, trust me. The solution is not hunting.

I agree with you. That is why hunting is not anywhere where in my statement.  
A good sergeant should be pulling in enough at least contracts to at least provide his troops with enough bread to stay alive. (providing for themselves)
If you are a trooper who's sergeant is not keeping you fed, off him and take his place so you can do a better job.
Murder.  Corruption.  Betrayal.  not  Boot camp.  Free food.  Adventure.

It's hard enough to recruit people into clans as is.  The perks are basically protection, limited prestige, free food and possibly somewhere to sleep or a low wage.  Removing access to food from clans is going to make recruitment even harder and penalize players with low play times and off peakers.

Furthermore, what happens when clan membership drops.  I'd hate to be a militia sergeant with no pc members, and have to tell potential recruits: "Well, we'll take you on and train you - no pay as a recruit, and we can't feed you, but once we start getting busy and get some more bodies in here we'll hopefully be able to make some coin and feed you."

The current system is hard enough on off peakers and those of us with limited play time. And I don't know if you've looked at the pay scales lately, but people in clans are a very, very long way from rich.

It also sounds like it would lead to a prioritizing of tasks that make ic money.  Tor needs to buy food? Suddenly they're out hunting and mining sid when they used to be lecturing on tactics.  The Byn needs food? Oops, no more drinking in the bar, no cleaning the latrine, let's run more missions that get us coin or food objects. 

I don't like it.  I think that virtually supplied food is a very important aspect of coded clans, it's part of what gives them the leisure to rp the roles they're supposed to be rping, and one of the few perks.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 10:59:38 PM
Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

Ya need t' lead on ARM some, son, b'fore ya go 'bout givin' those of us who've -done- the job advices 'n it.

What is so hard about PCs keeping a food bin full.  All the coded clans I have ever been in, the PCs somehow provided food for the PCs, rather it was hunting, buying or stealing.

I have not once wished that the food bins magickally fill up.  I would be let down if they did.

The Byn offer a service. (sorry I keep using them. They are the only clan that I KNOW how their cook works.  It is nothing AT ALL against the Byn)
That service is muscle.  It takes food to make muscle.
From the view I am seeing it from, it would be the same as Kadius having gems load up automatically, or Salarr skins.
If some clans that make money from selling their services can afford to buy food, why can't others?

The militias, as far as I know don't have any income other than extortion and bribes, I can see how they would have free food (it's how our militaries work, after all), but people that "works" for a living has to go to the grocery store and buy food.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 18, 2008, 11:32:47 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 10:59:38 PM
Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

Ya need t' lead on ARM some, son, b'fore ya go 'bout givin' those of us who've -done- the job advices 'n it.

I have, sweetheart (it happened to be a clan that had to hunt for their food).  I have also played quartermaster for a house that had to work for their food while others were given it.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 11:38:46 PM
I have, sweetheart (it happened to be a clan that had to hunt for their food).  I have also played quartermaster for a house that had to work for their food while others were given it.

Then you didn't get my point that you're being pretty presumptuous about your idea that the rest of us don't know how to run clans. BTDT. A lot. Having to provide basic necessities for recruits/soldiers/hunters is a huge freaking pain in the ass. And you're vastly overestimating the supply of decent minions, if your blithe pronunciations are any gauge.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 18, 2008, 11:43:52 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 18, 2008, 11:38:46 PM
I have, sweetheart (it happened to be a clan that had to hunt for their food).  I have also played quartermaster for a house that had to work for their food while others were given it.

Then you didn't get my point that you're being pretty presumptuous about your idea that the rest of us don't know how to run clans. BTDT. A lot. Having to provide basic necessities for recruits/soldiers/hunters is a huge freaking pain in the ass. And you're vastly overestimating the supply of decent minions, if your blithe pronunciations are any gauge.

If i said anything that sounded at all like some one else didn't know what they were doing, it wasn't meant like that.
The question is how do we feel about clan cooks.  I feel that if some can do with out them, then it is OOC unfair for others to be given food for free.

The only piece of 'advice' I offered anyone was solicited in the post before it, and I gave an example of something that worked very well in the clan which my responsibility WAS providing food and supplies for the clan.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 18, 2008, 04:31:04 PM

Quote from: Desertman on September 18, 2008, 01:41:44 PM
Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

My impression of the Byn is that they're a bit short on contracts as it is, and that their mecernary philosophy pride compels them to earn their livings by the sword, not by grebbing, hunting and crafting.

I've skipped most of this thread, 'cause I don't understand why clan cooks are under review.  But for whatever it's worth, clan cooks are one of the two most important additions to the game (the other being crafting, with karma a distant third).  Clan cooks revolutionized the way the game is played.

Before clan cooks were implemented, clans sustained themselves with "supply runs."  Basically, a clan leader would organize hunts (or do all the hunting themselves) in order to keep the pantries stocked.  Long story short, clans used to have to hunt to sustain themselves, but since the invention of the clan cooks, they've been able to focus on being whatever their clan was meant to be.

Part of me liked the old system - it definitely made things exciting.  There were no, "no leaving the gates" rules because that effectively enforced starvation, and people had much shorter lifespans all around.  Hunting accidents were common, and important people regularly left the safety of the cities to fend for their own survival...

But, overall, I think the new system is better.  Yeah, it lacks a certain evolved hack 'n slash thrill that Armageddon used to have in spades, but the new system allows players to fulfill their character roles much more.

If you removed clan cooks for large mostly-VNPC-staffed organisations, you would have to drastically alter other aspects of the game.

I wouldn't support removing clan cooks unless all or at least some of the following occurred:

1. Animal spawning was altered so that more game (and more easily hunted game) spawned in several areas of the map and was not dependent on reboots.
2. The cooking skill was given a much higher success-to-fail ratio.
3. Hunger was altered so that eating a massive steak from a massive animal actually kept you fed for the better part of a day.
4. Food prices of raw food items were significantly lowered in both city-states.
5. Clan wages were increased so that off-peak/non-combat characters still had a means by which to acquire food.

When I played a hunter who ended up strong enough to reliably hunt just about anything in the southlands, there were still days where I'd go out with my hunting group and there wouldn't be a single animal around because the game had been cleared out and ginka hadn't rebooted for a week. Say what you will about competition for resources being a part of Zalanthan life, if every clan in Allanak was forced to resort to hunting or buying food, there simply would not be enough game in the region to support even a handful of clans.

Edited for grammar.

6. Skinning was altered to give far more meat per kill. A duskhorn should feed a small group for a week.

Quote from: Fathi on September 19, 2008, 02:05:03 AM

When I played a hunter who ended up strong enough to reliably hunt just about anything in the southlands, there were still days where I'd go out with my hunting group and there wouldn't be a single animal around because the game had been cleared out and ginka hadn't rebooted for a week. Say what you will about competition for resources being a part of Zalanthan life, if every clan in Allanak was forced to resort to hunting or buying food, there simply would not be enough game in the region to support even a handful of clans.

Game doesnt respawn based on Ginka rebooting.

Quote from: a strange shadow on September 19, 2008, 02:05:51 AM
6. Skinning was altered to give far more meat per kill. A duskhorn should feed a small group for a week.

I wouldnt want to see one kill feeding an entire group for a week.

I would like to see larger game yielding more food products in general though.

The way it stands now, I have to kill 3 or 4 deer-sized creatures and skin them perfectly just to get one meal for the day.

I think if we somewhat increased the yield of food from creatures, maybe double or triple what it is now? While also decreasing the overall cost of certain staple foods (flour ect...) in grocery stores, it wouldnt be too hard to switch many clans and groups from Magick Cooks to realistic supply gathering.

(By supply gathering I mean hunting for some clans, but for clans like the Byn I mean going on contracts, then using that coin to go "Gather Supplies" at  the local grocery store.)

For some clans like the Slaving Houses who really dont "Do" anything, except virtually for the most part, having IG cooks is really the only way to go.

Slavers arent supposed to be out hunting, they are supposed to be slaving.

I wouldnt be opposed to making all slaving Houses virtual operations myself though.

I have never seen a group of PC slavers actually go do any IG slaving, so whats the point?

All the ones I have ever seen just end up being like a secondary militia for the city.

Also, militia pc's obviously would still need "cooks" since they are a viable and interesting clan to have in game, but cant hunt or the like for themselves. Thats easily accomplished through the very real concept of taxes paying for their meager meals.

It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.
If you tried to feed Allanak, or even the prominent clans in Allanak primarily through hunting, there is no way that the surrounding
area could support it.  Particularly if it as a sparse, desert environment.

Really the city clans should be buying food,  From the butcher, or the baker, not going out hunting when they are hungry.

Now tribals, yeah they should be supporting themselves with hunting, but not major clans of the city.

Quote from: nyrk on September 19, 2008, 12:49:04 PM
It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.

Actually the primary source of nutrition in all centers of population is agriculture. Hunting is supplemental.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 19, 2008, 12:52:22 PM

Quote from: nyrk on September 19, 2008, 12:49:04 PM
It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.

Actually the primary source of nutrition in all centers of population is agriculture. Hunting is supplemental.

I know, I should have said that the players feel that the proper way to feed a city clan is through hunting.  I think if the free food for the clans did go away, they should shift to buying food rather than hunting for it.

As a primary source that is.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 19, 2008, 12:52:22 PM

Quote from: nyrk on September 19, 2008, 12:49:04 PM
It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.

Actually the primary source of nutrition in all centers of population is agriculture. Hunting is supplemental.

Nyrk meant strictly for the PC base, not the hordes of NPC's and VNPC's.

We dont have an agriculture code.

Yet.

(When we do its going to rock though.)

But yeah, many PC's simply hunt to feed themselves.

Clans, atleast those without a legitimate sensible hunter base, should depend primarily on buying food, not hunting.

The militia wouldnt hunt, for example. The Byn wouldnt hunt. The slaving Houses wouldnt hunt.

Houses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

Desertman:

QuoteHouses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

Bolded for emphasis - that is not a fact. I don't know if saying anything more is IC or not, so I'll just err on the side of caution. It bugs me when people say "it's a known fact" or "due to the fact that" when it's clear their facts are incorrect, and not facts at all, but rather suppositions or assumptions based on limited perception.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 19, 2008, 01:28:36 PM
Desertman:

QuoteHouses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

Bolded for emphasis - that is not a fact. I don't know if saying anything more is IC or not, so I'll just err on the side of caution. It bugs me when people say "it's a known fact" or "due to the fact that" when it's clear their facts are incorrect, and not facts at all, but rather suppositions or assumptions based on limited perception.

Well then the clan that I'm talking about must have a super sekret cook that noone in that clan below "Family Member" has ever been able to find.

Please, I would love to know where they hide that cook. Can you tell me via PM? Since I have played in that clan NUMEROUS times in MANY different ranks and never once found this sekret cook you know about.

Buying food is seriously too expensive in its current state. Seriously.

Quote from: Desertman on September 19, 2008, 01:32:33 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on September 19, 2008, 01:28:36 PM
Desertman:

QuoteHouses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

Bolded for emphasis - that is not a fact. I don't know if saying anything more is IC or not, so I'll just err on the side of caution. It bugs me when people say "it's a known fact" or "due to the fact that" when it's clear their facts are incorrect, and not facts at all, but rather suppositions or assumptions based on limited perception.

Well then the clan that I'm talking about must have a super sekret cook that noone in that clan below "Family Member" has ever been able to find.

Please, I would love to know where they hide that cook. Can you tell me via PM? Since I have played in that clan NUMEROUS times in MANY different ranks and never once found this sekret cook you know about.

You actually hit on a curousity that initially sparked the debate about this staff-side.
Whatever the outcome, there should be some continuity between different clans of certain types based on a meshing of IC realism, IC roleplay, and OOC playability.
As it stands now, there is no such continuity in that regard.

This is my opinion on the matter.

If it is a hunting/providing house like Salarr/Kadius, it should supply bread-type objects and leave it up to the hunters to bring in the meat.

If it is the Byn, then they are fine. Since they buy all their food from the shit that went bad in Salarr's kitchen.

If it is the Miltia, the State should provide crappy bread objects and near bad meats.

If it is a noble house, the noble house should provide a small selection of fruits, bread, meat, etc.

If there's no coded clan cook for employees, then food becomes a *primary* product for hunters to bring in. Not a *secondary* product.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 19, 2008, 04:00:49 PM
If there's no coded clan cook for employees, then food becomes a *primary* product for hunters to bring in. Not a *secondary* product.

I can think of one clan where there isnt a coded cook.

Food is still a secondary product.

In fact, last I checked, which was recently, they still had so much it filled up about four screens.

(This is a good time to propose that "Food Decay" code in fact.)

Quote from: Delstro on September 19, 2008, 03:29:11 PM
This is my opinion on the matter.

If it is a hunting/providing house like Salarr/Kadius, it should supply bread-type objects and leave it up to the hunters to bring in the meat.

If it is the Byn, then they are fine. Since they buy all their food from the shit that went bad in Salarr's kitchen.

If it is the Miltia, the State should provide crappy bread objects and near bad meats.

If it is a noble house, the noble house should provide a small selection of fruits, bread, meat, etc.

Look, I know I am a realism extremeist.

I know that what I propose is probably WAY TOO FAR left wing to actually be playable for a lot of people.

I think a good middle ground between what I have proposed, and what is proposed above, is a good stand point.

How about this:

Cooks no longer provide infinite food.

For example...

The Byn has one pot of stew a day (or something, this is just an example) and everyone gets a "ration".

No more going in and stacking up six bowls of stew a piece.

(You know how much a bowl of stew costs? Atleast 10 sid if its crappy...50 sid a day per mercenary on food isnt realistic for a mercenary company to be spending, plain and simple)

At some point for the day the cook will say,

"Sorry fella', but you got here too late. Be here early for breakfast I reckon' cause' were out fer' now. Or go buy yer' own."

Something like that.

I dont know, I dont really like this idea myself, just throwing something out there.

Real clans hunt for their own chow. 

But really, aside from maybe nobles, templars, and GMH family members.... the cook NPCs should be yanked.

They make for a softer game.

Quote from: Kronibas on September 19, 2008, 10:55:22 PM
Real clans hunt for their own chow. 

But really, aside from maybe nobles, templars, and GMH family members.... the cook NPCs should be yanked.

They make for a softer game.

Why bother to join a merchant house then, for example. You've signed up to work cloth but they send you out hunting for you own food half the time instead? You're supposedly a junior merchant but you're required to take up a spear and ride out now and then, trying to skewer a tarantula, because no one is around to pay you and a single steak can cost over a hundred coins? No thanks.

That's what hunters are for.

And when there are no PC hunters at the moment?

Quote from: a strange shadow on September 20, 2008, 12:56:24 AM
And when there are no PC hunters at the moment?

You spend the money you earn at the grocery shop.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 20, 2008, 01:02:50 AM
You spend the money you earn at the grocery shop.

Which leads right back to:

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 20, 2008, 12:41:21 AM
You're supposedly a junior merchant but you're required to take up a spear and ride out now and then, trying to skewer a tarantula, because no one is around to pay you and a single steak can cost over a hundred coins? No thanks.

A secure food supply and reasonably secure shelter/storage are among the main incentives to join a clan in the first place. 

Removing clan cooks could simultaneously increase the number of "real" jobs available for PCs in clans, and decrease the number of PCs who want jobs in clans.




Clan cooks are tricky.  It is silly that a clan cook will offer the same food to a Noble as they offer to a grubby drudge.  However, nobles often don't want to go get their own food directly from the cook, if possible they want to sit somewhere nice and have a servant bring them food, so servants have to have access to the good food. 

Then you get people going around with the backpack full of bowls of stew  ::) (the handy thermos hasn't been invented yet, and stew is too chunky to go in a waterskin).  And other people getting free food from the cook and then selling it to a grocer.   ::) ::)

Those all seem like RP problems, not code problems.  I recommend clarifying proper use of clan cooks on the clan BB, or the clan web page.  Tell people what is allowed, and what is considered poor RP.  You may be able to talk a cook into giving you a "noble" style meal once in a while, but you shouldn't be able to con her out of 5 of them every day.  Most players will follow the guidelines, if guidelines exist.



Another option, if possible, would have a limit on how many nice things you can get from a cook each day, but also have an unlimited amount of hard tack, stale bread, or other unpleasant, low value food available.  So you can get 1 each of the nice things, which is more than enough for most purposes.  But you aren't screwed if you need to go on a long mission, because you can have all the hardtack you want. (The cheap slave/grunt/travel type food should only be worth a coin or two, if it is sell able at all).  If a noble wants to plan a dinner party, he will have to plan ahead.  He'll either need several clan members helping him get enough food from the clan cook, or he will need to spend actual money buying food (or ingredients for a PC cook to prepare food) which is a good idea for parties anyway.

I'm not keen on clan cooks providing raw ingredients, because raw ingredients can be easily converted into salable products.  Even flour can be turned into a variety of things at fairly low levels of skill.  Sure, most of those things aren't worth much, but if you can make 4 things, and sell 5 of each of those 4 things to your local grocer, then you can sell at least 20 things per boot, at no cost to yourself.






TL;DR:  I am an optimist.  I think that if you put clear guidelines for using clan cooks in a hard to miss spot, most players will use them responsibly.  No change to the cooks themselves is necessary.

Quote from: Angela Christine on September 20, 2008, 01:43:46 AM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 20, 2008, 01:02:50 AM
You spend the money you earn at the grocery shop.

Then you get people going around with the backpack full of bowls of stew  ::) (the handy thermos hasn't been invented yet, and stew is too chunky to go in a waterskin).  And other people getting free food from the cook and then selling it to a grocer.   ::) ::)

1. Bynners walking around with bags full of bowls must have been hysterical.  Fortunately the code no longer allows that.  Some runner attempted that very thing, and the contents spilt into his backpack.  Deservedly.

2. This is something my grandfather told me; and old people are notorious liars.  He said that miners would carry soup to work in buttered paper bags..(obviously cold).

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 20, 2008, 12:41:21 AM

You've signed up to work cloth but they send you out hunting for you own food half the time instead? You're supposedly a junior merchant but you're required to take up a spear and ride out now and then, trying to skewer a tarantula, because no one is around to pay you and a single steak can cost over a hundred coins? No thanks.

If merchants are having to hunt and there's no family member PC to go out and buy food or assign people to make runs to
places where food can be bought cheaply (there are such places in game, we know), then something is FUBAR'd logistically within
the clan.

Usually when there's a situation like this, when there are no commanding officers about regularly enough to supply food and send PCs
on runs, food is the least of a clan's worries, because everything else is going to shit too.

But when a clan is functional, this shouldn't be a problem.  Personally, I wouldn't join a clan that didn't have leadership PCs or
hunters when it's supposed to, unless I felt like going that extra mile and helping build the clan up (which is a really good
way to earn leadership positions within a group).

Think about them who only be havin' about two hours or so t' play a night!

If they be havin' t' spend half that time havin' t' hunt fer the'r food, they might
as well jus' play a hunter an' forget clans.

Quote from: Malken on September 20, 2008, 01:32:35 PM
Think about them who only be havin' about two hours or so t' play a night!

If they be havin' t' spend half that time havin' t' hunt fer the'r food, they might
as well jus' play a hunter an' forget clans.

Yarr. Srsly

Quote from: Malken on September 20, 2008, 01:32:35 PM
Think about them who only be havin' about two hours or so t' play a night!

If they be havin' t' spend half that time havin' t' hunt fer the'r food, they might
as well jus' play a hunter an' forget clans.

Um... get food out of the food bins, that the PC/PCs responsible for keeping them filled, filled.

Quote from: Kronibas on September 20, 2008, 01:23:02 PM
[If merchants are having to hunt and there's no family member PC to go out and buy food or assign people to make runs to
places where food can be bought cheaply (there are such places in game, we know), then something is FUBAR'd logistically within
the clan.

Usually when there's a situation like this, when there are no commanding officers about regularly enough to supply food and send PCs
on runs, food is the least of a clan's worries, because everything else is going to shit too.

But when a clan is functional, this shouldn't be a problem.  Personally, I wouldn't join a clan that didn't have leadership PCs or
hunters when it's supposed to, unless I felt like going that extra mile and helping build the clan up (which is a really good
way to earn leadership positions within a group).

So in other words we're back to the clan's moneyed members buying and providing food for the employees. Might as well have a cook. Especially since we know how irregular PC-gathered supplies can be. I once had a clan member in Red Storm nearly die of starvation because the powers that be there weren't available to restock food for over half a year in-game (no cook, you see). That was after exhausting personal funds too.

Or just throw your character away if the clan's PC activity withers for a while. Thanks.

It's funny how the products of agriculture have been systematically either eliminated from the game (Allanak) or priced through the roof (Red Storm) by the staff. Living in these places, you might really believe that the population supports itself primarily by hunting. The products of agriculture just aren't really there at a lower price than meats. As a result, advice to clans to buy food is going to be very, very expensive if done at retail value. Especially with all the meat-burning that would go on by inept cooks. I can readily believe a clan would set up a buying and competent cooking organization, just to keep costs down.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 20, 2008, 05:45:21 PM
So in other words we're back to the clan's moneyed members buying and providing food for the employees. Might as well have a cook. Especially since we know how irregular PC-gathered supplies can be. I once had a clan member in Red Storm nearly die of starvation because the powers that be there weren't available to restock food for over half a year in-game (no cook, you see). That was after exhausting personal funds too.

Yeah, in some clans, the responsibility of feeding the group should fall on whoever is in a leadership position.  If they choose to
fulfill this task by spam-buying food from grocer NPCs, then they are robbing their clan of a facet of group roleplay that
provides a lot of potential for travel, interaction with their fellow clannies, problem-solving, and managing the clan's economic situation.

I concede that some groups (noble houses and other groups that are not oriented around resource-gathering) should be
exempt from this, but the vast majority of groups within the game should have to get their own food.  If they're having to
buy this chow from NPCs, then they should have to pay for it out of their own coffers.  There has to be an overhead.

Joining a clan =! an automatic free ride. 

Your example of a character dying of starvation is a good example of why there shouldn't be cook NPCs.  If no leader
PCs have been around for half a year, then the group they're overseeing should start to wither due to neglect.  The
state of a clan should reflect on how said clan is being led/managed.  That's what leaders are for.  If there aren't any leaders
or hunters around.. then you're pretty much screwed anyway.  Such a clan is like the freaking Titantic... it's all
going down, down, down unless the staff steps in and bumps you up or slips in another another leadership PC to
replace Senior Merchant Busyplayingwarcraft.  It sucks this happened to you, but cutting a major part of clan
logistics ain't the best solution.

I was over a hunting/gathering group for a while, and I'll tell you this from about three years of experience:

I had an NPC in an area not accessible to the grunt-level PCs that would dispense food, and I can count on
one hand the number of times I resorted to said NPC to sustain my group.  By refusing to resort to this NPC -
by refraining from throwing steaks and fruit and all that other good shit at them - I provided who-knows-how-many
chances at group roleplay for those within the group. 

The "problem" is what you make of it, and I'm pretty sure that this won't even be an issue if resourceful players are
in charge.

Spam hunting all day to gather enough food to feed four people =! fun group interaction.

Quote from: Yam on September 21, 2008, 12:46:58 AM
Spam hunting all day to gather enough food to feed four people =! fun group interaction.

There are MANY ways to get food in Zalanthas that don't involve killing NPC animals.

Indeed. Picking enough fruits to feed four people can be somewhat more interesting.

Quote from: Kronibas on September 21, 2008, 12:37:49 AM
I concede that some groups (noble houses and other groups that are not oriented around resource-gathering) should be
exempt from this, but the vast majority of groups within the game should have to get their own food.  If they're having to
buy this chow from NPCs, then they should have to pay for it out of their own coffers.  There has to be an overhead.

There's a huge flaw in this argument, though:  This penalizes players who are on more often than others.  You play more, you eat more, you drink more and you booze more, but your pay remains the same.  Meanwhile, the guy who logs in once a week for an hour is raking in the cash 'cause he has almost no overhead.

Quote from: Haze on September 21, 2008, 12:53:32 AM

Quote from: Kronibas on September 21, 2008, 12:37:49 AM
I concede that some groups (noble houses and other groups that are not oriented around resource-gathering) should be
exempt from this, but the vast majority of groups within the game should have to get their own food.  If they're having to
buy this chow from NPCs, then they should have to pay for it out of their own coffers.  There has to be an overhead.

There's a huge flaw in this argument, though:  This penalizes players who are on more often than others.  You play more, you eat more, you drink more and you booze more, but your pay remains the same.  Meanwhile, the guy who logs in once a week for an hour is raking in the cash 'cause he has almost no overhead.

Every 'good' clan leader I have ever had offered bonuses in addition to salary to compensate for this.

Quote from: Haze on September 21, 2008, 12:53:32 AM
There's a huge flaw in this argument, though:  This penalizes players who are on more often than others.  You play more, you eat more, you drink more and you booze more, but your pay remains the same.  Meanwhile, the guy who logs in once a week for an hour is raking in the cash 'cause he has almost no overhead.

Let me clarify.. by they, I meant those in leadership positions.  Ideally, there should be more than one of these guys running around.

I don't think entry-level PCs should have to go out and buy their own food.

Quote from: Yam on September 21, 2008, 12:46:58 AM
Spam hunting all day to gather enough food to feed four people =! fun group interaction.

When was the last time you played a hunter?  It doesn't take all day and it certainly doesn't require "spam hunting".  As an independent solo hunter, a PC of mine had enough food to easily feed 2 or 3 others.  She was on her own though and it would just pile up on the shelves of her apartment. (yeah, I know, sanitary eh?)

And I've also played as a hunter in a clan where a core of three good hunters could easily keep the clan supplied with meat and sometimes fruit.  The hunters were good at hunting and did it often because ummm... that's what they got paid to do and, again, no spam hunting was involved.  Also, group hunting trips actually do  =   fun group interaction.

I play hunters quite frequently.

Considering how skin works currently, 3 hunters (not guild_rangers) could not keep 3 other PCs fed indefinitely.

Hunting = fun interaction.

Being forced to hunt constantly while playing = not fun.

I've played in clans with NPC cooks and without NPC cooks. I no longer play in clans without NPC cooks (excepting desert elves and tribals). It's simply too much of a burden to feed and water PCs given the limited food yield of animals and plants.

Once upon a time, I was hired into a clan that didn't have a clan cook for non-family, and didn't have an automatic water bin. A few RL days later, my employer filled up his wagon with meat from the food bin, and left for the other city. Which was where the other clan employer was. And which was where all the other clan hunters were.

Me, being a brand-new hunter with no armor, no weapon, no access to house funds, and spent most of my sids on a brand shiny new mount, wasn't about to go running out by myself to take down a duskhorn just so I'd have enough food to eat. My rangerly self was able to get out the gate to grab some roots, because thankfully, I happened to be in Tuluk. That wouldn't have been an option if this was all going on while I was in Allanak and everyone in the clan was up north.

Fortunately, the clan imm took pity on me and saw that I was the only PC in the clan in that city - and also knew that -because- I was the only PC in the clan in that city, there was also no representative available to do all the things that clan representatives do in cities. So - she did a little RP promotion for my character and gave me some sids and authority to do some of those things, which would give me enough profit to afford buying my food, my armor, my weapons, so that I could actually get out and BE the hunter they hired me to be.

In the meantime, one of the PC leaders brought up a crew of hunters, who went to town on what was left of the food bin and emptied out the waterbin. Fortunately at that point, the PC leader was there...and was able to stock up on water. Except...that water was for bringing back down to Allanak. So not only did we have barely a sip of water left in the entire compound, we only had two barrels to lug to the market to fill the big barrel in the compound. Because the PC leader took all the other barrels with him. Fortunately - once he and his crew left, I was the only one in Tuluk again. And fortunately, my character didn't drink much.

The moral of the story is, IDEALLY things wouldn't work this way. But this isn't an IDEAL code, players will -not- play IDEALLY, and it is unfair, unrealistic, unplayable, and generally unwise to count on people doing the IDEAL thing. Because most of the time, they won't.

Having knowledge of this situation, I can say with certainty that a clan cook wasn't necessary in this group, because after a  game month the buffer filled up about two thirds of screen when one "looked in bin."  There was so much food once recruiting in the clan
began in earnest that it had to be shipped off to Allanak, which was actually interesting because it allowed for a portrayal of the distribution of resources that ICly should have been happening.

A clan cook would have made for a ridiculous excess of raw materials, and not only would it have added absolutely nothing to the
group, but also it would have detracted from the group by making things entirely too easy.

Characters aren't hired as hunters within a clan to mud sex or sit in taverns 90% of the time.

They're hired as hunters to portray their character, and when one is trying to portray a hunter... one should be hunting.  Which involves going out and killing things for food or grebbing for it.  And if you're in Tuluk, this is almost too easy as it is, anyway.

If you're starving or dehydrating in Tuluk as a ranger, you're doing it wrong.

When I play a hunter, I want to roleplay a hunter. I don't want to actually live the life of a hunter.

There are a lot of things to do other than hunt or mudsex. Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that. Maybe I have the time to hunt and feed myself, but certainly not enough time to feed other aides/merchants/agents.

Quote from: Melody on September 21, 2008, 12:06:11 PM
When I play a hunter, I want to roleplay a hunter. I don't want to actually live the life of a hunter.

There are a lot of things to do other than hunt or mudsex. Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that. Maybe I have the time to hunt and feed myself, but certainly not enough time to feed other aides/merchants/agents.

When I play a hunter, its because I want to actually live the life of a hunter. I really cant see how thats off. When I play an assassin, its because I want to live the life of an assassin. I dont complain that me sitting around listening to rumors doesnt leave me with enough time to go hunting. So I surely dont complain that having to go hunting with my hunters doesnt leave me with enough time to rumor monger and conspire.

If you dont like the hunting aspect of a hunter's life, which in many ways rules it...hint the keyword..."Hunter"...you might consider playing something else.

When I play a merchant/bard/assassin, its because I want to be involved in "Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that".

Some people just arent cut out to be a hunter I guess.

The next time you interview for a job with Kadius as a hunter tell the Agent this...

"I dont really want to spend all of my time hunting and supplying the House and its members. I need time to do other things with my friends and stuff, you know how it is."

Agents need a good laugh every now and then. They get bored.

Quote from: Melody on September 21, 2008, 12:06:11 PM
When I play a hunter, I want to roleplay a hunter. I don't want to actually live the life of a hunter.

Living (RPing) like you were suggesting would be the same as being a runner in the Byn (being paid to be a mercenary), but not actually wanting to go out on contracts (being a mercenary).
If you are not hunting, you are not RPing being a hunter, you are RPing pretending to be a hunter.

Quote from: Melody on September 21, 2008, 12:06:11 PM
There are a lot of things to do other than hunt or mudsex. Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that. Maybe I have the time to hunt and feed myself, but certainly not enough time to feed other aides/merchants/agents.

If you are in clan as a hunter, that is what you are being paid to do.  If you are conspiring, instead of going out to get food, you are not doing the job you are paid to do.

You would, however make a great aid.  I would suggest assassin/house servant, instead of ranger/weaponsmaker for such a role.  IF the noble/family member wants to call you a "hunter" to cover up your true job, that is another matter, but if you are hired to be a hunter, you need to be out hunting.

FW you're still not really taking play times into account in your argument.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 18, 2008, 11:21:06 PM
It's hard enough to recruit people into clans as is.  The perks are basically protection, limited prestige, free food and possibly somewhere to sleep or a low wage.  Removing access to food from clans is going to make recruitment even harder and penalize players with low play times and off peakers.

Furthermore, what happens when clan membership drops.  I'd hate to be a militia sergeant with no pc members, and have to tell potential recruits: "Well, we'll take you on and train you - no pay as a recruit, and we can't feed you, but once we start getting busy and get some more bodies in here we'll hopefully be able to make some coin and feed you."

The current system is hard enough on off peakers and those of us with limited play time. And I don't know if you've looked at the pay scales lately, but people in clans are a very, very long way from rich.

It also sounds like it would lead to a prioritizing of tasks that make ic money.  Tor needs to buy food? Suddenly they're out hunting and mining sid when they used to be lecturing on tactics.  The Byn needs food? Oops, no more drinking in the bar, no cleaning the latrine, let's run more missions that get us coin or food objects. 

I don't like it.  I think that virtually supplied food is a very important aspect of coded clans, it's part of what gives them the leisure to rp the roles they're supposed to be rping, and one of the few perks.

Quoted because honestly none of these problems have been addressed.

Now I'm all for the staff having an account somewhere on how much each group is paying for their food and water, I assumed that they already had that taken into consideration.  The thing is that generally for someone like Oash, the Byn, Kadius, Kurac, Tor, the militia, feeding those four pcs is a negligible cost after the cost of feeding the rest of the organization. So unless the group has fallen on very hard times there's no real reason for their members to go hungry.

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

A virtual account of the money spent seems just fine to me.  I know that a few months ago some of the contents of clan kitchens were changed to represent ic events, so I suspect that there's some of that already going on.  At least in some clans.

How is rp served by forcing clan leaders to buy groceries? 

What people arguing against clan cooks seem to want is smaller organizations that exist on a day to day basis, there seems to be a general disdain for large organizations that can afford to dip into the coffers to feed their members. That's fine, and mostly seems to have been addressed in Arm 2.0. But as long as this is Arm, I don't think those houses/groups are going anywhere, and it wouldn't make much sense for them to starve their members.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 12:41:01 PM
FW you're still not really taking play times into account in your argument.

No offense to anyone who can't play as much as they would like to, if you can't do the job your PC get's hired to do, then you need to either stay indy of get a job (like a crafter) within the house to where you can be productive and not just a house leech.  Don't make IC commitments that you can't back up OOC.  It would be like making a noble or templar who can only play two hours per week.  Once you join a clan or a sponsored role, you are expected to contribute to to the game world and your clan/house/city, not just reap the benefits of free food and water.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 18, 2008, 11:21:06 PM
It's hard enough to recruit people into clans as is.  The perks are basically protection, limited prestige, free food and possibly somewhere to sleep or a low wage.  Removing access to food from clans is going to make recruitment even harder and penalize players with low play times and off peakers.

So not doing one of your jobs as a leader (to make sure your clan members have food), should be solved my having an NPC do your job for you?  Maybe the leader needs to store so that a player who has the time to do it can take his place.  If the leader is doing his job, the player with low play time is not suffering.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 18, 2008, 11:21:06 PM
Furthermore, what happens when clan membership drops.  I'd hate to be a militia sergeant with no pc members, and have to tell potential recruits: "Well, we'll take you on and train you - no pay as a recruit, and we can't feed you, but once we start getting busy and get some more bodies in here we'll hopefully be able to make some coin and feed you."

When the membership drops, there are fewer PCs to feed, and give you the opportunity to stock up for the next batch of PCs.  Leaders should feed their minions or appoint someone else to do this for them.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 18, 2008, 11:21:06 PM
The current system is hard enough on off peakers and those of us with limited play time. And I don't know if you've looked at the pay scales lately, but people in clans are a very, very long way from rich.

If you aren't playing much than you don't need much food, do you?  Someone mentioned earlier that not playing much, actually gave you the advantage of having more money per time played.  If the PC leaders or doing their jobs, you don't need an NPC to feed the people, if the are not, the need to be knocked off IC or stored, so someone that can do the job can.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 18, 2008, 11:21:06 PM
It also sounds like it would lead to a prioritizing of tasks that make ic money.  Tor needs to buy food? Suddenly they're out hunting and mining sid when they used to be lecturing on tactics.  The Byn needs food? Oops, no more drinking in the bar, no cleaning the latrine, let's run more missions that get us coin or food objects. 

The noble houses and militias, as apposed to those clans who do have to to make money to survive, have money loaded into their accounts my IMMs.  If your clan doesn't hunt IC, then they have to buy groceries IC, so the PC should have to buy these groceries, the money IS loaded into the account for a reason, after all.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 18, 2008, 11:21:06 PM
I don't like it.  I think that virtually supplied food is a very important aspect of coded clans, it's part of what gives them the leisure to rp the roles they're supposed to be rping, and one of the few perks.

Clans that have roles that involve gathering food, should gather food.  Clans that involve having to buy food to keep their minions fed, should have to buy food to keep their minions fed.

harsh desert world + murder, corruption, betrayal = free food and water?

I would suggest a mush without hunger/thirst code

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 01:25:18 PM
harsh desert world + murder, corruption, betrayal = free food and water?

I would suggest a mush without hunger/thirst code

If that's the way you want to see it...

Armageddon's motto is Murder, Corruption, Betrayal. Not Hunting, Skinning, and Cooking.

:P

Sure, we can do without a clan cook. But clans would become so unattractive. It gets more work than fun to play in a clan. It's so much more easier to go inddie. Have you any idea how difficult it is to recruit? (it is hard enough to make people stay alive without them having to go out and die in an attempt of getting some dinner)

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 01:25:18 PM
harsh desert world + murder, corruption, betrayal = free food and water?

I would suggest a mush without hunger/thirst code

That's flippant, and a straw man.  Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  What I'm saying is that clan leaders and members of large organizations have better things to do than hunt or run to the grocer every day, and that it doesn't make much sense for a character in those positions to have to do so.

Not all clans or characters deal with the same level of conflict, and clan leaders and players often can have plenty to do without dealing with food or skills that bring a coded response or benefit.  True conflict comes from inequality, hierarchy and uneven distribution of resources, not necessarily a lack of resources.

Greater equality of resources means less conflict not more, and the documentation and game do not corroborate this "everyone has to struggle to feed themselves" theory you're basing your arguments on.  

Quote from: Melody on September 21, 2008, 01:32:27 PM
(it is hard enough to make people stay alive without them having to go out and die in an attempt of getting some dinner)

Then what do you expect your hunters to do?

There are grocery stores.  What in the world would clans do with their money, if they didn't use is to cover overhead?

Gain without cost is unrealistic.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 12:46:03 PM

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
What I'm saying is that clan leaders and members of large organizations have better things to do than hunt or run to the grocer every day, and that it doesn't make much sense for a character in those positions to have to do so.

It is THEIR job to take care of their subordinates.  if they can't/won't do it, they can appoint someone else to or died when his minions get tired of not being fed.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Not all clans or characters deal with the same level of conflict, and clan leaders and players often can have plenty to do without dealing with food or skills that bring a coded response or benefit.  True conflict comes from inequality, hierarchy and uneven distribution of resources, not necessarily a lack of resources.

Is not everyone having the same access to an supply of food and water despite rank or standings badly distributed resources?

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Greater equality of resources means less conflict not more, and the documentation and game do not corroborate this "everyone has to struggle to feed themselves" theory you're basing your arguments on.  

There are clans who get neither free food and water, there are clans who get unlimited food and water.  This IS NOT equality of resources.  To me it seems that the only reason that some can, and some can't, is that those who can't have weaker leadership.

• If the clans that have to work for to get their food/water can keep people hired, than the argument saying that it would make recruiting harder is void.  
• Since clans that don't hunt/gather food, have the coin to buy food, then the argument of having to spend all their time hunting/gathering is void.  
• Since it takes less than a IG hour for a trip to the grocery store to fill up a large bag with food, the argument of leaders or those appointed by leaders 'not having time' for it is void.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:39:38 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 12:46:03 PM

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

Virtual money should be spent on virtual employees, PC earned money should be spent on PCs.
If there is not enough PC earned money, someone is slacking or embezzlement going on.

If the PC population of the organization is not able to support themselves, than the clan SHOULD be struggling.
The PC population, after all, should be the standard for how the group is functioning considering that is how the PC population (and subsequently the rest of the world too) perceives the group.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 01:54:42 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
What I'm saying is that clan leaders and members of large organizations have better things to do than hunt or run to the grocer every day, and that it doesn't make much sense for a character in those positions to have to do so.

It is THEIR job to take care of their subordinates.  if they can't/won't do it, they can appoint someone else to or died when his minions get tired of not being fed.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Not all clans or characters deal with the same level of conflict, and clan leaders and players often can have plenty to do without dealing with food or skills that bring a coded response or benefit.  True conflict comes from inequality, hierarchy and uneven distribution of resources, not necessarily a lack of resources.

Is not everyone having the same access to an supply of food and water despite rank or standings badly distributed resources?

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Greater equality of resources means less conflict not more, and the documentation and game do not corroborate this "everyone has to struggle to feed themselves" theory you're basing your arguments on.  

There are clans who get neither free food and water, there are clans who get unlimited food and water.  This IS NOT equality of resources.  To me it seems that the only reason that some can, and some can't, is that those who can't have weaker leadership.

• If the clans that have to work for to get their food/water can keep people hired, than the argument saying that it would make recruiting harder is void.  
• Since clans that don't hunt/gather food, have the coin to buy food, then the argument of having to spend all their time hunting/gathering is void.  
• Since it takes less than a IG hour for a trip to the grocery store to fill up a large bag with food, the argument of leaders or those appointed by leaders 'not having time' for it is void.

I think you're misunderstanding my post.  Read it again.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 01:57:37 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:39:38 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 12:46:03 PM

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

Virtual money should be spent on virtual employees, PC earned money should be spent on PCs.
If there is not enough PC earned money, someone is slacking or embezzlement going on.
If there is, what is it being spent one besides supplies for the people that make it?

Large organizations do not make the majority of their coin from players, and hire characters that do not necessarily employ coded skills or bring money into the clan directly.  I do not want the game reduced to a giant merchant/hunt off where coded skills rule the day and clans can't afford to hire people that aren't represented in the coded economy. The coded economy only works when you produce things that can be sold/bought from a merchant.

You're also not taking into account that the powers that be in city states are fantabulously rich.

How is stocking up on raw meat more realistic than having an NPC that cooks them?

The money could go toward politics. Because politics sometimes require an assload of money.

Or there aren't enough PCs with enough playtime to reflect what "should" be in the clan.

Striving for further realism reflected in the clan is great, and I'm sure a middle-ground can be found.

If I play an Agent, I don't want to have to spend all of my time going to ridiculous lengths spamcrafting, selling, and running out into a warzone to find craftable materials so I can make enough to feed 10 pcs - instead of a heavier focus on striking deals with other Houses, politicking, and enjoying character development - just because my one crafter only plays 5 hours a week and my "hunters" are all assassins and warriors.

I'm surprised staggerlee hasn't put his head through a brick wall yet.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 01:54:42 PM
There are clans who get neither free food and water, there are clans who get unlimited food and water.  This IS NOT equality of resources.  To me it seems that the only reason that some can, and some can't, is that those who can't have weaker leadership.

Quote from: Xygax on September 11, 2008, 03:14:07 PM
Amongst ourselves (the staff), we have been discussing various ideas for tweaking/improving the in-game experience of clan cooks.  There are a handful of advantages and disadvantages to the current system, from an IC and OOC perspective.  Having discussed possible alternatives for a while now, we've come up with a few.

We'd like to know which of these alternatives you prefer, or if you have your own ideas.

It's worth noting that this does not reflect on cooks already in place which serve the nobility, or high-ranking merchant family members.  Mainly we're talking about the grunts of the house, low-level employees and so on.

This would include partisans, initial hires, aides, servants, recruits, etc., on up to the point where they become mid-level employees (are relatively trustworthy, have been promoted, etc.).  This has nothing to do with quality of leadership and everything to do with finding a middle ground between realism versus playability, specifically with the issue of clan cooks, as stated in the initial post.

Quote from: Nyr on September 21, 2008, 02:11:11 PM
This has nothing to do with quality of leadership and everything to do with finding a middle ground between realism versus playability, specifically with the issue of clan cooks, as stated in the initial post.

The point I made was in response the the belief that some clans could not function or function in the way the clan is suppose to without clan cooks accessible to lower level employees.  If low level employees do not have food, it is because someone is not doing their job (hunting gathering food/buying food).  If it is not the leaders direct responsibility to supply food, it is still their responsibility to make sure the one who IS responsible for it is doing their job.

My point was made to say this: Any clan, with good leadership, will find a way to feed themselves without an unlimited supply loading up automatically.

Ah, I see what you mean.  I was confused by the criticism of clan leaders.

Quote from: Nyr on September 21, 2008, 02:40:40 PM
Ah, I see what you mean.  I was confused by the criticism of clan leaders.

No, fortunately I have always been fortunate enough to join clans that had a wonderful and strong leader PC at the time.

I believe my statements did need that clarification, though.

QuoteIf low level employees do not have food, it is because someone is not doing their job (hunting gathering food/buying food).

And this I think is what some people take issue with, FW. This is ONE reason why low level employees don't have food. Here's some other reasons:

1. The leader hasn't met the person responsible for getting the food yet, because the leader isn't in that city, and doesn't know ICly that this person was even hired, let alone works for them.

2. The leader is supposedly there, but never logs in, and therefore isn't available ICly to direct the employee on what to do.

3. The leader left the employee with strict orders to NOT go out alone, but unfortunately he/she is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area, and not going alone, means not going at all.

4. The PC hunter is the only one in the clan, and hunts intelligently, and knows his limits, and knows he is a new hunter who can barely hold a blade, let alone use it, and therefore won't go hunting alone, and unfortunately is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area.

5. The rest of the crew said "I'll be back in a day" - and 2 weeks later is still gone, somewhere else.

6. The only crew you have, consists of everything -except- people with the skinning skill, and so they go running out killing things and not bringing back food.

7. You HAVE no crew, and are the only PC in your clan, in the area, and you aren't a hunter.

So you see..there are many MANY reasons why a person might not have food. And most of them have nothing to do with "not doing your job." Not being allowed to do your job, not having the coded skill to do your job, and it not -being- your job, fit several of those reasons.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 01:54:42 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

No, it doesn't. There are plenty of opportunities to get caught without food or water when travelling.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
1. The leader hasn't met the person responsible for getting the food yet, because the leader isn't in that city, and doesn't know ICly that this person was even hired, let alone works for them.

If the have the responsibility of procuring food, then they HAVE met with the leader PC or and IMM animated leader NPC, and been set up with the banker flag so that they can do their job.  It is ICly impossible for someone to have this responsibility without it being set up by a leader.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
2. The leader is supposedly there, but never logs in, and therefore isn't available ICly to direct the employee on what to do.

If they have been set up as quartermaster by the leader PC (see #1) they don't have to be told to do their job in order to do it.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
3. The leader left the employee with strict orders to NOT go out alone, but unfortunately he/she is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area, and not going alone, means not going at all.

The quartermaster or leader has already made sure there is food available inside the walls, so they have no need to go out JUST to get food an water.  That has nothing to do with the the issue of a clan cook, please start a new thread for this issue.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
4. The PC hunter is the only one in the clan, and hunts intelligently, and knows his limits, and knows he is a new hunter who can barely hold a blade, let alone use it, and therefore won't go hunting alone, and unfortunately is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area.

Make friend IC to go hunting with like indys do.  Again, this has nothing to do with clan cooks, since the food bins have been filled by the quartermaster or leader.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
5. The rest of the crew said "I'll be back in a day" - and 2 weeks later is still gone, somewhere else.

What does this have to do with the issue of clan cooks?

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
6. The only crew you have, consists of everything -except- people with the skinning skill, and so they go running out killing things and not bringing back food.

Address the issue to the clan IMMS and I am sure they would be more than hapy to set a couple of PCs up with the skinning skill.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
7. You HAVE no crew, and are the only PC in your clan, in the area, and you aren't a hunter.

Get the food out of the food bin that was placed there by the quartermaster or leader.
If you are the ONLY member of your clan and are incapable of getting food on your own, speak with your clan imm about the issue or store.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 04:25:47 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 01:54:42 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 01:34:18 PM
Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

No, it doesn't. There are plenty of opportunities to get caught without food or water when travelling.

If it has to do with food in the wild, then it has nothing to do with NPC clan cooks, does it?
Your leader PC or quartermaster is responsible for providing food (even for clans with NPC cooks) for outdoor excursions.
If your clan cannot ICly provide you with food and water, rebel and find one who can.  Your character wouldn't put up with starving.  They would find someone who COULD feed them.

I think you misunderstood the intent of that post.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 02:24:10 PM
If low level employees do not have food, it is because someone is not doing their job (hunting gathering food/buying food).  If it is not the leaders direct responsibility to supply food, it is still their responsibility to make sure the one who IS responsible for it is doing their job.

This just isn't going to work. I don't believe it's fair to expect PCs to function like automatons, hunting daily to keep others fed. When things get too rigid like this, players burn out and leave. It's hard enough to be a PC leader without additional troubles like this too.

A couple of other points need to be made too:

1. You don't only need good hunters, you need a good cook. Otherwise most of what is brought in will be spoiled (rather unreasonably) in the cooking fire.
2. Hunting to feed a city of half a million people is ridiculous. More agricultural products should be put into the game and at a lower cost than meats if clans are going to have to supply their PC members with food.
3. What about the NPC clan members? Won't it be rather foolish to have a few PCs starving when all the NPCs of the clan stand around in full health? Where are the hunting parties to support the NPC members?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
1. You don't only need good hunters, you need a good cook. Otherwise most of what is brought in will be spoiled (rather unreasonably) in the cooking fire.

As somone suggested earlier:

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 11, 2008, 04:31:34 PM
>offer flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Hmmm. I can make a tender flank of carru from that."

>sell flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Thanks."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man sets a bloody flank of meat on a bone grill.

(crafting delay)

The pudgy, worn-eyed man puts a grilled flank of carru meat into a wooden food bin.

In this example, the NPC cook still helps out, but doesn't do things for free.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
2. Hunting to feed a city of half a million people is ridiculous.

Virtual hunters, and virtual farms feed virtual characters.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
3. What about the NPC clan members? Won't it be rather foolish to have a few PCs starving when all the NPCs of the clan stand around in full health? Where are the hunting parties to support the NPC members?

The NPCs food comes from the VNPC hunters and VNPC farms.
If good leaders and a quartermaster are in place, like they are in clans without unlimitedly supplied cooks, they have filled the food bins like all the great merchant houses, desert elf tribes, tribal humans, uncoded merchant houses, uncoded merc groups, indies do.

Quote from: a strange shadow on September 21, 2008, 02:08:48 PM
I'm surprised staggerlee hasn't put his head through a brick wall yet.

I'm working on it!
Actually I'm about done, repeating the same argument over and over again isn't going anywhere and nobody has actually addressed the point anyway.

I also really don't like clan leader bashing.  It's an absurdly hard job that uses skills and time people could probably employ to good effect in real life. I love those poor martyrs that sign up for the job. ;)

Quote from: staggerlee on September 21, 2008, 05:53:15 PM

Quote from: a strange shadow on September 21, 2008, 02:08:48 PM
I'm surprised staggerlee hasn't put his head through a brick wall yet.

I'm working on it!
Actually I'm about done, repeating the same argument over and over again isn't going anywhere and nobody has actually addressed the point anyway.

I also really don't like clan leader bashing.  It's an absurdly hard job that uses skills and time people could probably employ to good effect in real life. I love those poor martyrs that sign up for the job. ;)

I have not bashed any clan leaders.  Read mine and Nyr's posts from above.
Ever clan I have ever been in functions perfectly well without a clan cook.  I have never been in a clan that myself or my characters believe had a bad leader.
Leading a clan IS HARD WORK.  It takes someone who really cares about the came, and had the time to dedicate to it.
No one has bashed leaders here.

Many people have addressed the OP, albeit with different solutions to and opinions of the situation.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 05:46:15 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
1. You don't only need good hunters, you need a good cook. Otherwise most of what is brought in will be spoiled (rather unreasonably) in the cooking fire.

As somone suggested earlier:

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 11, 2008, 04:31:34 PM
>offer flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Hmmm. I can make a tender flank of carru from that."

>sell flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Thanks."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man sets a bloody flank of meat on a bone grill.

(crafting delay)

The pudgy, worn-eyed man puts a grilled flank of carru meat into a wooden food bin.

Okay, that might work to solve the cooking problem.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 05:46:15 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
2. Hunting to feed a city of half a million people is ridiculous.

Virtual hunters, and virtual farms feed virtual characters.

You're skipping the fundamental point here, which is that in an agricultural society, a city-based clan shouldn't have to hunt! And think about what would happen if even a small portion of a large, fixed population tried: the total extermination of anything edible within any remotely workable distance of the city!

Quote

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
3. What about the NPC clan members? Won't it be rather foolish to have a few PCs starving when all the NPCs of the clan stand around in full health? Where are the hunting parties to support the NPC members?

The NPCs food comes from the VNPC hunters and VNPC farms.

So they just have a completely independent system, and stand around ignoring members of their own clan just because they have the magical PC aura? Absurd.

You also ignored my points about the tedium, hunter burnout and leader burnout with the added bureaucracy.

(deleted... trying to post + unstable network = no fun)

I keep seeing this arguement from several people...

"If I am the only hunter in the House at the time, I dont want to go outside and get killed trying to get food to feed myself and others."

My first question when hiring a hunter usually is...

"Can you take care of -yourself-?"

If the answer is no...

Fuck that guy, I dont want to hire him. If he cant take care of himself, I surely dont want to pay him to freeload off my House. He surely isnt going to be an asset to helping anyone else, he cant even help himself.

Maybe I should be more "newbie friendly".

I dont know.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 07:22:56 PM
So they just have a completely independent system, and stand around ignoring members of their own clan just because they have the magical PC aura? Absurd.

No, the NPC/VNPC percentage of the clan pulls their weight, the PC percentage pulls theirs.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 07:22:56 PM
You also ignored my points about the tedium, hunter burnout and leader burnout with the added bureaucracy.

HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

If you feel like you are incapable of pulling the load of a leader, stay away from sponsored roles.  There are people that actually enjoy the responsibility of making a difference in the game world in that way, and do not see it as a burden.  

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 07:38:13 PM
HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

This is untrue.  Almost all clans function with clan cooks.

Quote from: Desertman on September 21, 2008, 07:31:46 PM
Fuck that guy, I dont want to hire him. If he cant take care of himself, I surely dont want to pay him to freeload off my House. He surely isnt going to be an asset to helping anyone else, he cant even help himself.

Maybe I should be more "newbie friendly".

I dont know.

Many swabbies actually join a clan t' get trainin', an' a squadron o' swabbies t' hang ou' wi'. Th' pay really sucks, most o' th' time, an' if 't wasn`t fer th' "free" food, trainin' an' others t' go ou' huntin' wi', then
ye'd be better off as an independant, BY FAR.

If thar's nay one else fer ye t' hunt wi', an' ye take away th' NPC cooks, I think that clans will actually be e'en less popular.

If ye're already good at what ye're doin', why would ye want t' join, say, Kadius? Ye're probably already makin' a lot more than they can pay ye.

Quote from: Nyr on September 21, 2008, 07:42:32 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 07:38:13 PM
HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

This is untrue.  Almost all clans function with clan cooks.

Sorry, clan cooks that AREN'T accessible to all PCs. (free food cooks)

It's not really free food when it's basically your entire wage as a recruit starting out in a lot of organizations.
If you want to remove the free food and put in regular pay cheques I guess that's okay, but they'd have to be pretty damn big pay cheques to keep people fed.  Food is expensive.
Also, FW a lot of clans have restrictions on  who can leave the city and when.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 07:50:00 PM

Quote from: Nyr on September 21, 2008, 07:42:32 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 07:38:13 PM
HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

This is untrue.  Almost all clans function with clan cooks.

Sorry, clan cooks that AREN'T accessible to all PCs. (free food cooks)

Most clans function with clan cooks for lower level/entry employees.
If you support removing them entirely, that's an alternative proposed by the poll, but be informed that that option is available presently for the majority of clans AND for the majority of PCs in them.

I'm thinking FW is basing his opinion on incorrect information. Perhaps if his knowledge wasn't quite so limited (which apparently it is), his opinion would be different.

And yeah for Desertman, if I am already a seasoned hunter, I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans. Cause indendents who are -already- good at what they're doing, don't need anything that the GMHs can offer.

Food: Already good at getting my own, and cooking it.
Water: Plenty of places to get water free if you're already good at it, no thanks.
Stable fees: Dood. I'm a *skilled* independent hunter. 20 sid stable fees are the least of my worries.
Salary: Uh, I get more sids as a *skilled* independent hunter in 3 game days, than you are willing to pay me in a game month.

That is why it's so hard for a GMH to -find- already skilled seasoned knowledgeable hunters. Because they're already doing better than what the GMH can offer. They join for the comeraderie, and they join because they're not good enough to be independent. And you're saying if you're not good enough to be independent (that is, take care of yourself, by yourself), then you aren't willing to hire them.

Has nothing to do with being a new player. It has to do with being a new *character.* When you just rolled up your character, you SUCK. Your skills SUCK. You aren't worth shit. Yet. Join a clan, GET good, and you will be an enormous contribution to your clan and worth more than your weight in copper. Maybe Desertman should consider not being a leader then, if that is his attitude toward hiring new characters.

And this, coming from someone who brags about how much he loves the Byn and playing leader roles? That's a damn shame.

Clans with cooks accecable to everyone.

[Removed a list of clans due to IC information and specifics. -Nyr]

Are my numbers off that bad?

And what about the clans that have low level grunts? The ones that -do- recruit. How many yes's and no's are there? Tribes wont have low level grunts. When the hunters for those tribes are gone, the crafter PCs leave.

[Removed IC specific information. -Nyr]

Only Ste'en Seagal an' th' GDB could turn a discussion about 'em cooks hostile!

I think ye're all jus' goin' in circles, now.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 08:28:50 PM
Clans with cooks accecable to everyone.

[Removed a list of clans due to IC information and specifics. -Nyr]

Are my numbers off that bad?

Nyr,

Was I correct in that there ARE more clan which provide for themselves rather than an unlimited supply of food from a clan cook?

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans.

What I think is a damn shame.. is you saying you wouldn't join a clan because they won't give you enough shit.

Joining a clan should reflect what makes sense for your character.. and that includes a lot of intangibles.  It should not
be all about "gettin free lewt yarr lawl."

Maybe you should re=evaluate your motivations.

FW, you are completely not understanding the point of this thread, and nitpicking on points that have nothing to do with the issue.

The point is for Xygax and the rest of the staff, to figure out what to do about clans that would normally have coded cooks for employees.

In general and with the exception of special exceptions, which are exceptions and therefore irrelevent to this discussion, tribe don't hire employees. So whether or not they have coded cooks, has nothing to do with this thread. They're talking about noble houses and GMHs and the Militia and the Legion. As far as I know, only a couple of those do -not- provide their employees with a free access to food and water. The rest, do.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 08:44:50 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 21, 2008, 08:28:50 PM
Clans with cooks accecable to everyone.

[Removed a list of clans due to IC information and specifics. -Nyr]

Are my numbers off that bad?

Nyr,

Was I correct in that there ARE more clan which provide for themselves rather than an unlimited supply of food from a clan cook?

Tribes do not count for the purpose of this discussion, for the most part.  They would fall into the area of "some clans" in the original post.
That may not have been apparent from the outset.  Tribes are distinctly different from clans that have employees.

Quote from: Xygax on September 11, 2008, 03:14:07 PM
Obviously, for some clans, these ideas might have to be tweaked a bit to be reasonable.  For the most part, what I'm interested in is having your overall gut feeling on the matter, not in what you'd do specifically with each clan (too IC, anyway).

Quote from: Kronibas on September 21, 2008, 08:45:16 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans.

What I think is a damn shame.. is you saying you wouldn't join a clan because they won't give you enough shit.

Joining a clan should reflect what makes sense for your character.. and that includes a lot of intangibles.  It should not
be all about "gettin free lewt yarr lawl."

Maybe you should re=evaluate your motivations.

Let's say you had a choice of running your own business or joining someone else's.

Option A: You're experienced, and you're able to run your own business consistently profitably.

Option B: On the other hand, if you join that someone else's, suddenly there are all sorts of restrictions on you. You don't get fed or watered. You have to at the minimum share the profits for anything you do. You do receive some pay (intermittently rather than consistently), most of which you have to spend on food. Oh, and you have to risk your life when ordered, even if you know more about survival than your leader does.

I'd say Option B sucks in relative terms, and characters in the game are going to understand that.

Quote from: Kronibas on September 21, 2008, 08:45:16 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans.

What I think is a damn shame.. is you saying you wouldn't join a clan because they won't give you enough shit.

Joining a clan should reflect what makes sense for your character.. and that includes a lot of intangibles.  It should not
be all about "gettin free lewt yarr lawl."

Maybe you should re=evaluate your motivations.

Quoteif I am already a seasoned hunter, I am LESS likely

Please do me a favor Kronibas, and respond to what I am saying rather than to what you want to spin.

IF I am already a seasoned hunter, THEN I am LESS likely to...

Nowhere do I say, imply, hint, or insinuate, that I "wouldn't" join a house just because "they won't give me enough shit." And I resent you twisting and misquoting me just so you can claim that I said that.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 21, 2008, 08:52:30 PM
Let's say you had a choice of running your own business or joining someone else's.

Option A: You're experienced, and you're able to run your own business consistently profitably.

Option B: On the other hand, if you join that someone else's, suddenly there are all sorts of restrictions on you. You don't get fed or watered. You have to at the minimum share the profits for anything you do. You do receive some pay (intermittently rather than consistently), most of which you have to spend on food. Oh, and you have to risk your life when ordered, even if you know more about survival than your leader does.

I'd say Option B sucks in relative terms, and characters in the game are going to understand that.

Option A offers nearly certain death in an unfair amount of time.

Option B offers the best chance to live long and wax old.


ICly, most Citizens would choose B, because they do get Fed and Watered and have a place to Chill at that is Relatively Safe.

OOCly, choosing B will get you into more stories and more group fun and more all around mayhem.

I really tend to be annoyed at how many PCs (not players) seem to think that life in a clan isn't 'worth the rules.' They live in a police state. Seriously, they are not used to rules yet? Bah.

And ultimately, I do agree that clan cooks should remain. I would just like to see the option for those clan cooks to have more on the menu based on food the clan-members might bring in.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 21, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
I'm thinking FW is basing his opinion on incorrect information. Perhaps if his knowledge wasn't quite so limited (which apparently it is), his opinion would be different.

And yeah for Desertman, if I am already a seasoned hunter, I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans. Cause indendents who are -already- good at what they're doing, don't need anything that the GMHs can offer.

Food: Already good at getting my own, and cooking it.
Water: Plenty of places to get water free if you're already good at it, no thanks.
Stable fees: Dood. I'm a *skilled* independent hunter. 20 sid stable fees are the least of my worries.
Salary: Uh, I get more sids as a *skilled* independent hunter in 3 game days, than you are willing to pay me in a game month.

That is why it's so hard for a GMH to -find- already skilled seasoned knowledgeable hunters. Because they're already doing better than what the GMH can offer. They join for the comeraderie, and they join because they're not good enough to be independent. And you're saying if you're not good enough to be independent (that is, take care of yourself, by yourself), then you aren't willing to hire them.

Has nothing to do with being a new player. It has to do with being a new *character.* When you just rolled up your character, you SUCK. Your skills SUCK. You aren't worth shit. Yet. Join a clan, GET good, and you will be an enormous contribution to your clan and worth more than your weight in copper. Maybe Desertman should consider not being a leader then, if that is his attitude toward hiring new characters.

And this, coming from someone who brags about how much he loves the Byn and playing leader roles? That's a damn shame.

I have to be honest.

I only ever join clans because I like to RP in the clan.

Sure, I can make about 6 times as much "sid" in a RL week as a indy than I can make in a clan for a month.

Stables, food, and water arent even a concern for me, if I choose to power play.

If I chose to power play, I could supply half the population of Tuluk with food and water from my one pc.

So I have to be honest, food, stables, and a place to sleep dont even make blip on my radar of reasons to join a house.

I guess for some people its a major feature, having those free goodies at your disposal, for me, I could easily forget they even offered them and never notice.

Also, it has nothing to do with skillz.

The way Rangers (most hunters are rangers) are set up, if you have ANY trouble supplying yourself, and three other people, from the very beginning, at one hour played, you simply arent very skilled at playing a ranger yet.

I find it rediculously easy to "survive".

Of course, like I said before, I  may have a slight problem with being "newbie friendly". I understand that not all players know where/how to get resources ect, even basic ones.

I also have the problem of never joining a clan with a new pc.

I always "Train" them first.

I guess for most people the process is...

New PC

Join Clan

Train While in Clan

Be Leet

Stay With Clan for Life or Leave Clan Now That I am Leet from Sparringz and Getting Free Food for Yearz


For me its...

Train my character up to a level befitting of his background.

Join a clan for no other reason than I enjoy the RP in that clan.

*shrugs*


In the end my point is...If you cant supply yourself or your clan without magick cooks, you deserve to die.

You deserve to perish in Zalanthas.

Why?

Because if you are a weakling, who lacks the ability to hack it, you deserve to starve to death. Repeatedly. Pc after PC, until you do learn to hack it.

(I have played far too many half-elves, I know my perspective is warped, but it is mine.)

Quote from: Nyr on September 21, 2008, 08:51:22 PM

Tribes do not count for the purpose of this discussion, for the most part. 

I personally think that looking at tribes for one reason alone would prove useful for this discussion.

Tribes are in fact, a proven example of a pc populations ability to not only supply its self, but thrive while doing so.

The way tribes are set up, the pc's supply themselves.

It is assumed the NPC's and VNPC's are taking appropriate measures to supply themselves as well.

I dont see why merchant Houses and the like shouldnt work the same way.

The PC employees are responsible for taking care of themselves and supplying their own branches and units.

It can be assumed the NPC's and VNPC's are taking appropriate steps to supply themselves and their own units/branches as well.

We already have perfect working models that prove PC populations, even large ones, are VERY capable of taking care of themselves without clan cooks.

Calling it a tribe is an IC factor.

If you changed the name Tribe to House, you would still have the same end result.

PC populations supplying themselves.

It is possible, we have currently functioning proof that pc's can do it.

The question here is not...

CAN CLANS SURVIVE WITHOUT CLAN COOKS?

The question here is...

DO PEOPLE WANT TO BE FORCED TO SURVIVE WITHOUT CLAN COOKS?
It is not a matter of "Can it work." its a matter of "Do we want it."

Its been proven it can work already.

Paragraphs.

The game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

And uhm yeah... Desertman I honestly can barely read your posts, double spacing isn't like paragraphs.  It'd take a lot of strain off of everyone's eyes if you could break it up a little.  No offense, I just find it harder to get the point you're trying to make when the post gives me a headache.

Quote from: staggerlee on September 22, 2008, 11:03:02 AM
The game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

Yeah, I agree that my method isnt horribly "newbie friendly".

On that aspect alone, depending on what the IMM's consider important, my idea may be crap.

But thats just my view point.

Let them die repeatedly from starvation.

It makes them tough.

(Or makes them quit the game, but, every plan has as downfall somewhere)

Quote from: staggerlee on September 22, 2008, 11:03:02 AM

And uhm yeah... Desertman I honestly can barely read your posts, double spacing isn't like paragraphs.  It'd take a lot of strain off of everyone's eyes if you could break it up a little.  No offense, I just find it harder to get the point you're trying to make when the post gives me a headache.

Use the force.

Also, I would like to note that my view point is probably twisted by the way I like to play  my clan leaders as well.

(Double space, how is your meta-chlorine count this morning? Bwahah.)

I see people complaining that they are already "busy" with their clan leaders. Too busy to waste time running around making sure everyone from newbie Runner to seasoned Trooper is supplied.

I personally would LOVE to do that.

I like being extremely busy, and extremely involved as a clan leader.

I love it.

If I dont have fifteen PC's breathing down my neck wanting "this, this, and this," I am not having a good time.

When I play clan leaders I also log multiple hours every day of the week most of the time. So that probably makes a difference for my preferences as well. I personally WOULD have the time to take care of my underlings, but I understand that some people wouldnt due to OOC restrictions.

Its not that I dont think you guys that are "For clan cooks" are wrong, in fact it is proven clan cooks work really well. We have done it that way for a long time.

You guys arent wrong at all.

I just personally would have a LOT more fun with my clan leaders if clan cooks didnt exist. So, that gets my vote.

Its a personal preference thing.

Quote from: Desertman

Quote from: stagerleeThe game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

Yeah, I agree that my method isnt horribly "newbie friendly". On that aspect alone, depending on what the IMM's consider important, my idea may be crap. But thats just my view point. Let them die repeatedly from starvation. It makes them tough. (Or makes them quit the game, but, every plan has as downfall somewhere)

Also, I would like to note that my view point is probably twisted by the way I like to play  my clan leaders as well. (Double space, how is your meta-chlorine count this morning? Bwahah.) I see people complaining that they are already "busy" with their clan leaders. Too busy to waste time running around making sure everyone from newbie Runner to seasoned Trooper is supplied. I personally would LOVE to do that. I like being extremely busy, and extremely involved as a clan leader. I love it. If I dont have fifteen PC's breathing down my neck wanting "this, this, and this," I am not having a good time. When I play clan leaders I also log multiple hours every day of the week most of the time. So that probably makes a difference for my preferences as well. I personally WOULD have the time to take care of my underlings, but I understand that some people wouldnt due to OOC restrictions. Its not that I dont think you guys that are "For clan cooks" are wrong, in fact it is proven clan cooks work really well. We have done it that way for a long time. You guys arent wrong at all. I just personally would have a LOT more fun with my clan leaders if clan cooks didnt exist. So, that gets my vote. Its a personal preference thing.

The force is strong with this one.

Quote from: Yam on September 22, 2008, 11:23:02 AM

Quote from: Desertman

Quote from: stagerleeThe game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

Yeah, I agree that my method isnt horribly "newbie friendly". On that aspect alone, depending on what the IMM's consider important, my idea may be crap. But thats just my view point. Let them die repeatedly from starvation. It makes them tough. (Or makes them quit the game, but, every plan has as downfall somewhere)

Also, I would like to note that my view point is probably twisted by the way I like to play  my clan leaders as well. (Double space, how is your meta-chlorine count this morning? Bwahah.) I see people complaining that they are already "busy" with their clan leaders. Too busy to waste time running around making sure everyone from newbie Runner to seasoned Trooper is supplied. I personally would LOVE to do that. I like being extremely busy, and extremely involved as a clan leader. I love it. If I dont have fifteen PC's breathing down my neck wanting "this, this, and this," I am not having a good time. When I play clan leaders I also log multiple hours every day of the week most of the time. So that probably makes a difference for my preferences as well. I personally WOULD have the time to take care of my underlings, but I understand that some people wouldnt due to OOC restrictions. Its not that I dont think you guys that are "For clan cooks" are wrong, in fact it is proven clan cooks work really well. We have done it that way for a long time. You guys arent wrong at all. I just personally would have a LOT more fun with my clan leaders if clan cooks didnt exist. So, that gets my vote. Its a personal preference thing.

The force is strong with this one.

You are just like that kid who grew up to be Darth Vader.

I bet Yoda would have killed you, if he just would have known in the beginning.

The more restrictions there are in a clan, the more perks there should be. This viewpoint is gamist, mostly OOC.

Clans with next to zero restrictions on actual gameplay shouldn't have clan cooks.  Clans with crazy restrictions/responsibilities should have jugs of free water and NPC cooks serving up gourmet meals. I think a survey of clans and relative level of restrictions would reveal this situation already exists, more or less.

...However, IC events should trump this philosophy, at least on a temporary basis.

Realistically, the PC population will never reflect the "real" population of a clan.  

For example, since roughly half the people living in the cities are slaves, there is an excellent chance that all the Houses (noble and merchant) have many slaves.  Slaves work for nothing but room and board, so they are great for the kind of unskilled but necessary drudgery needed to keep an organization alive, but that isn't worth paying a free man to do.  Since they can be raised in the clan they are also pretty good for extremely specialized "trade secret" type stuff that you wouldn't want to teach everyone who walks in off the street.  Not only are slaves raised in the house usually as loyal as the Family members themselves, they can be cloistered inside the compound so that they never encounter anyone who is not loyal to the house (both Family members and free employees tend to object to being restricted to the compound all the time).  But among PCs slaves are pretty rare, and non-mul slaves rarer still.  A "normal" slave role is boring, nobody wants to spend their free time playing something more boring than their real job.

Even among free employees, the careers of PCs probably don't reflect the careers of an average employee.  For a large organization with hundreds of employees, specialization is the most efficient way to go.  There is a publicly accessible NPC Kadian workshop in Tuluk, where people are making things out of wood.  It appears that carving wood is all the artisans there do, they don't cook, they don't go logging, they don't go hunting, they don't go making contacts in the taverns, and they don't get bored with carving wood and start carving stone or making feathers into jewelery just for a change.  They carve wood, and then the things they make are sold in the dedicated "stuff made out of wood" shop out front.  That is their job.


PCs are generalists.  They tend to do a little of this and a little of that, frequently dabbling in things outside their job description, depending on what needs to be done and what is currently available to do.  That makes sense for a small organization with half a dozen employees.  It also makes sense for a tribe, where most people are jacks of all trades, with very few specialists (such as a shaman or lore keeper) because historically you don't really get a lot of specialization of trades until after the development of agriculture.  

Generalists don't make sense for an organization that will have dozens or hundreds of employees in a small area, organization and specialization are key to keeping a large number of employees as productive as possible.  It makes perfect sense for these large organizations to have a dedicated cooking staff, it is much more efficient to have a few people working in the kitchen all day, than to have dozens of people making a rush on the the kitchen as they each try to cook lunch for themselves or their own small unit every day.  Hunters and grebbers should be bringing back food that they find, but most of that food should go into the virtual common pot, to be prepared and distributed to the non-hunting masses along with the un-forageable staples that the organization buys in bulk at significantly less than retail prices.  Having each small group buy and prepare all of their own supplies would be much more expensive and less efficient than having a quartermaster organize the supplies, and then have the cook(s) make enough for everyone.

PCs don't provide for themselves.  I have never once, upon joining a clan with a uniform, been handed a bolt of cloth and a needle and told to sew it myself, or get Malik to do it for me if I see him around.   :D  PCs should be contributing things that they do not use, and using things that they did not contribute.

Quote from: Angela Christine on September 22, 2008, 01:59:40 PM
Realistically, the PC population will never reflect the "real" population of a clan.  

For example, since roughly half the people living in the cities are slaves, there is an excellent chance that all the Houses (noble and merchant) have many slaves.  Slaves work for nothing but room and board, so they are great for the kind of unskilled but necessary drudgery needed to keep an organization alive, but that isn't worth paying a free man to do.  Since they can be raised in the clan they are also pretty good for extremely specialized "trade secret" type stuff that you wouldn't want to teach everyone who walks in off the street.  Not only are slaves raised in the house usually as loyal as the Family members themselves, they can be cloistered inside the compound so that they never encounter anyone who is not loyal to the house (both Family members and free employees tend to object to being restricted to the compound all the time).  But among PCs slaves are pretty rare, and non-mul slaves rarer still.  A "normal" slave role is boring, nobody wants to spend their free time playing something more boring than their real job.

Even among free employees, the careers of PCs probably don't reflect the careers of an average employee.  For a large organization with hundreds of employees, specialization is the most efficient way to go.  There is a publicly accessible NPC Kadian workshop in Tuluk, where people are making things out of wood.  It appears that carving wood is all the artisans there do, they don't cook, they don't go logging, they don't go hunting, they don't go making contacts in the taverns, and they don't get bored with carving wood and start carving stone or making feathers into jewelery just for a change.  They carve wood, and then the things they make are sold in the dedicated "stuff made out of wood" shop out front.  That is their job.


PCs are generalists.  They tend to do a little of this and a little of that, frequently dabbling in things outside their job description, depending on what needs to be done and what is currently available to do.  That makes sense for a small organization with half a dozen employees.  It also makes sense for a tribe, where most people are jacks of all trades, with very few specialists (such as a shaman or lore keeper) because historically you don't really get a lot of specialization of trades until after the development of agriculture.  

Generalists don't make sense for an organization that will have dozens or hundreds of employees in a small area, organization and specialization are key to keeping a large number of employees as productive as possible.  It makes perfect sense for these large organizations to have a dedicated cooking staff, it is much more efficient to have a few people working in the kitchen all day, than to have dozens of people making a rush on the the kitchen as they each try to cook lunch for themselves or their own small unit every day.  Hunters and grebbers should be bringing back food that they find, but most of that food should go into the virtual common pot, to be prepared and distributed to the non-hunting masses along with the un-forageable staples that the organization buys in bulk at significantly less than retail prices.  Having each small group buy and prepare all of their own supplies would be much more expensive and less efficient than having a quartermaster organize the supplies, and then have the cook(s) make enough for everyone.

PCs don't provide for themselves.  I have never once, upon joining a clan with a uniform, been handed a bolt of cloth and a needle and told to sew it myself, or get Malik to do it for me if I see him around.   :D  PCs should be contributing things that they do not use, and using things that they did not contribute.

After reading all of this twice, I have to say that I am not sure if you are for or against clan cooks.

???

I am for automagic-cooks for large, organized clans.

The gist of my post is that I don't think small groups of PCs inside a larger organization should necessarily be self sufficient.

Yeah, for certain organizations it would be unrealistic to try and force the pc's to be self sufficient.

In other organizations, it would however be feasable.

Here is just a quick run down of my opinion on such clans and a short justification for "Why?" on each.

Allanaki/Tuluki Nobles = Yes = Paid for through city awarded stipends obviously.

Arm of the Dragon/Legion = Yes = Paid for through city awarded tax coins?

Bards of Poets Circle = No = Live by your talents.

Desert Elves = No = Obvious.

House Kadius = No/Yes = No for lower ranks, yes for family members and upper ranks.

House Kurac = Yes = They are technically just another militia like AOD and Legion.

House Salarr = No/Yes = No for lower ranks, yes for family members and upper ranks.

Human Tribals = No = Obvious.

Tan Muark = No = Just because we love them doesnt mean they arent just another tribe.

The Guild = No = Live by your quick fingers or not at all rat.

Templarate = Yes = Obvious.

Tzai Byn = No/Yes = No for lower ranks (Sergeant and below). Yes for upper ranks. (Lieutenant and above)

Quote from: Desertman on September 22, 2008, 05:01:21 PM
Tzai Byn = No/Yes = No for lower ranks (Sergeant and below). Yes for upper ranks. (Lieutenant and above)

That would suck.

Let me say it again. That would suck.

New Runner? No food, no water, you paid THEM 300 coins, you're not allowed out of the city on your own, you either have no armor or no coins left, dependent as a baby on the Sergeant. Why not just rename the clan the "Coocoo's Nest", with mama Sergeant out hunting all of the time to bring back worms to feed the ravenous fledglings?

You guys should probably stop posting those lists as they all get edited for speculating about/containing IC information.

Quote from: Yam on September 22, 2008, 05:14:33 PM
You guys should probably stop posting those lists as they all get edited for speculating about/containing IC information.

Everyone note, my list above is completely hypothetical.

If any of those clans already do, or dont, have clan cooks is not reflected.

That is simply the setup I would prefer if I had my choice.

Again, there are no verified facts posted in my list.

(Better?)

Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 22, 2008, 05:12:49 PM

Quote from: Desertman on September 22, 2008, 05:01:21 PM
Tzai Byn = No/Yes = No for lower ranks (Sergeant and below). Yes for upper ranks. (Lieutenant and above)

That would suck.

Let me say it again. That would suck.

New Runner? No food, no water, you paid THEM 300 coins, you're not allowed out of the city on your own, you either have no armor or no coins left, dependent as a baby on the Sergeant. Why not just rename the clan the "Coocoo's Nest", with mama Sergeant out hunting all of the time to bring back worms to feed the ravenous fledglings?

I was actually thinking that the runners/troopers/sergeants would be forced to use coins from their contracts to buy food.

Anyone who knows shit about the Byn, knows that a self respecting mercenary would NEVER be caught "hunting" as you put it, for their food.

The next arguement being..."Well, what if we dont have a Sergeant who is active enough/good enough to get us enough contracts to keep us fed?"

Impeach that bitch. The next time you go out on a training run, make sure he has an accident because you and the rest of the boys are tired of his piss poor leadership and being hungry all of the damn time.

I guarantee you any Runner/Trooper who has ever played under me can vouch that basic food and supplies would be no problem to obtain through funds gotten from contracts.

I dont want to post numbers, because I kept formulated excel charts for each RL week reflecting the exact number of coins paid to each member of my unit, but trust me, if a Byn leader is worth a shit, his Runners will atleast be able to swill crap ale and eat travel cakes until they make Trooper. And then, they will be living relatively well.

The Byn is my baby, I love it, like a mother would love her only fatherless child that gets picked on by all of the other kids. I hate the fact it has gotten a NEWBIE CAMP face painted on it over the years. Some of the best roleplayers I have ever encountered, scratch that, THE BEST roleplayers I have ever encountered were Byn mercenaries. It is not a newbie camp, I dont care what anyone says, thats not what it fucking is.

If you have a Byn leader who does a shit job and cant supply his mercenaries, he doesnt deserve to be a Byn leader. I might be a bit of an elitist about it, but I dont care if its due to IC or OOC reasons, if your Byn leader is a shit Byn leader, that fucker needs to resign, or he deserves to be killed. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

(I will also note that due to some "changes" instated recently by Byn staff, if I agree with them or not is irrelevant, supplying yourself based on contract money would be about 50% easier than it was the last time I actually wore stripes. So feel free to DOUBLE my enthusiasm posted above regarding a Byn mercs ability to feed themselves.)

I think it's actually ok that there is more than one way to approach clans and cooks and rangers and things. I don't think any one is inherently better than another. If you show up willing to play with a certain (ooc) generosity of spirit you can't go too far wrong.

That list just pertains to how he would like to see it. I agree with Desertman, except for the Bynn, of course.

Quote from: Delstro on September 22, 2008, 08:02:49 PM
That list just pertains to how he would like to see it. I agree with Desertman, except for the Bynn, of course.

What I want for the Byn reflects what would be the most fun for me personally. Of course, that doesnt mean it reflects what would be best for the clan over all.

I have been trying to figure out a way to get this "Newbie School" tag off the greatest clan in the game for years. Taking away the infinite food for newbies is just one more step in that direction, so that definantly gets my vote.

If I was a man looking for a job, and I picked one up in a compound that I am not aloud outside from, except in evenings, and on contract. I would expect to be fed.

I also like the idea of food become a more important resource, one worth de-throneing your sarge for.

As an outrageous super noob I can't imagin living without some tasty support,

As I get a little more involved and experienced I see that it isn't so bad, but I still needed that sweet Buxom stew to get me started.

I suppose this didn't help at all, to not be a 'I love everyone, fence sitting forum noob' I vote leave them as is, but would still play regardless.

Yet another thread, brought back to life by AJM, the thread NEEEEEECROMAAAAANCAHHH!

Quote from: Riev on November 19, 2008, 07:01:57 PM
Yet another thread, brought back to life by AJM, the thread NEEEEEECROMAAAAANCAHHH!

Which is, as I view it, better than creating another thread on the topic. Noobs reading old threads makes me happy.

Me too, especially since I wasn't here when this thread was in its prime. Yet I'm playing now and any action taken by the imms based upon the thread would affect me.

I do not like them, Sam I am. I do not like green eggs and ham.

What I mean is, WTF? Please, please, don't mess with the cooks. For some people in clans, being able to get regular meals of some sort is important. I would rather keep things as they are. As LoD noted, the food objects allow for some really good roleplay at times. As props. Also, I am not in favor of worsening the food, of limiting the quantity or any such thing.

When you have an active, thriving, clan where there are more than a few PCs recruited, I would not like someone to go hungry because we 'ran out'. It would be just another hurdle to throw into the faces of those PCs trying to lead the clan in whatever capacity they might. I am not in favor of moves that takes away their support base, at all.

Quote from: deviant storm on December 04, 2008, 08:51:12 AM

When you have an active, thriving, clan where there are more than a few PCs recruited, I would not like someone to go hungry because we 'ran out'. It would be just another hurdle to throw into the faces of those PCs trying to lead the clan in whatever capacity they might. I am not in favor of moves that takes away their support base, at all.

Most of the times that limiting the food was mentioned, it was talking about pne PC only being allowed to gt a certain amount per game day, that keeps them from filling up a pack full of free food and what-not.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 04, 2008, 09:41:32 AM

Quote from: deviant storm on December 04, 2008, 08:51:12 AM

When you have an active, thriving, clan where there are more than a few PCs recruited, I would not like someone to go hungry because we 'ran out'. It would be just another hurdle to throw into the faces of those PCs trying to lead the clan in whatever capacity they might. I am not in favor of moves that takes away their support base, at all.

Most of the times that limiting the food was mentioned, it was talking about pne PC only being allowed to gt a certain amount per game day, that keeps them from filling up a pack full of free food and what-not.

Erm, why would that be a problem? Most of the cooks are at estates that are FOREVER away from where most people RP. Walking all the way back EVERY TIME you get hungry? No thank you. Put some bread or ginka fruit in your pack and get going!

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that I think all Clans should have go to and provide their own meat and material that clan cooks can then use. It'll give some more stuff to do at least, especially when I've noticed, alot of people tend to have pantrys with a billion uneaten food items in there while relying on the adjacent cook.

I think they should go away completely -- however, I believe a few things would be helpful here.

1)  make bodies of some of the animals easier to carry.   Maybe a hunter can buy a special sling which can hold the corpse or something -- but a way so the emphasis is on hunting for food.

2)  For small PC clans Imms can simply keep the food and water supply up.  But, for larger PC clans (5 or so) offer the job to a PC.  Like the Byn could hire a cook/ aide.

Quote from: My 2 sids on December 09, 2008, 11:22:43 AM
I think they should go away completely -- however, I believe a few things would be helpful here.

1)  make bodies of some of the animals easier to carry.   Maybe a hunter can buy a special sling which can hold the corpse or something -- but a way so the emphasis is on hunting for food.

2)  For small PC clans Imms can simply keep the food and water supply up.  But, for larger PC clans (5 or so) offer the job to a PC.  Like the Byn could hire a cook/ aide.

>get body
>pack body mount

The way they are now, I believe for lower-ranks like hunters who bring in masses of meat from hunts and such - The meat never finds any good use. It literally sits there for IC months before someone either pulls them out to spam-cook or junks them.

For the poll, I choose "Other" because I think it's possible to have a mixture of everything.

Leave the cooks - But put a daily limit to what they serve or make it to where they serve servant-ranked clan members at certain times, throughout the day.

Hungry but just got in at the middle of the night? Tough luck - That's why you need to chow in the morning when the cooks are making food en-masse for everyone.

Dawn, High Sun, and Dusk would be the ideal times, I'd think. Dawn - Everyone's up and about to ride out. High Sun would be typically slow if the hunters are out, but it would satisfy low-ranked crafters and any other folks who didn't ride out with the rest.

By the time Dusk rolls around, people should be calling it a day and heading back in.

If your starved but their not serving - That's why we have clan food-bins filled with, what would you know, FOOD!

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on December 13, 2008, 03:19:23 PM
The way they are now, I believe for lower-ranks like hunters who bring in masses of meat from hunts and such - The meat never finds any good use. It literally sits there for IC months before someone either pulls them out to spam-cook or junks them.

For the poll, I choose "Other" because I think it's possible to have a mixture of everything.

Leave the cooks - But put a daily limit to what they serve or make it to where they serve servant-ranked clan members at certain times, throughout the day.

Hungry but just got in at the middle of the night? Tough luck - That's why you need to chow in the morning when the cooks are making food en-masse for everyone.

Dawn, High Sun, and Dusk would be the ideal times, I'd think. Dawn - Everyone's up and about to ride out. High Sun would be typically slow if the hunters are out, but it would satisfy low-ranked crafters and any other folks who didn't ride out with the rest.

By the time Dusk rolls around, people should be calling it a day and heading back in.

If your starved but their not serving - That's why we have clan food-bins filled with, what would you know, FOOD!

The accumulations of food in the clan stores represents several RL years of play. If the clan members became dependent on the stores and hunting to feed themselves, I predict the accumulations would be eaten up in no time and clan members would start starving as soon as their coin ran out.

Think about it. Say there are six active members. So they go out on a scrab hunt. They'd have to bag six scrabs, skinning them perfectly, and cooking the meat perfectly, to have two pieces of meat and a scrab head each. After eating that, they're all hungry again in two hours RL and back out they go, two hours later. Oh, but wait. Now there's a heavy sandstorm going and no scrabs left in the wastes. What to do?

The game just can't sustain that level of hunting, and eighteen pieces of meat every two hours would wipe out the storeroom fast. Even worse if there are a bunch of stay-at-homers depending on the hunters.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 13, 2008, 04:38:57 PM

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on December 13, 2008, 03:19:23 PM
Leave the cooks - But put a daily limit to what they serve or make it to where they serve servant-ranked clan members at certain times, throughout the day.

The accumulations of food in the clan stores represents several RL years of play. If the clan members became dependent on the stores and hunting to feed themselves, I predict the accumulations would be eaten up in no time and clan members would start starving as soon as their coin ran out.

Think about it. Say there are six active members. So they go out on a scrab hunt. They'd have to bag six scrabs, skinning them perfectly, and cooking the meat perfectly, to have two pieces of meat and a scrab head each. After eating that, they're all hungry again in two hours RL and back out they go, two hours later. Oh, but wait. Now there's a heavy sandstorm going and no scrabs left in the wastes. What to do?

The game just can't sustain that level of hunting, and eighteen pieces of meat every two hours would wipe out the storeroom fast. Even worse if there are a bunch of stay-at-homers depending on the hunters.

You kind've missed the entire reason of my post.

In fact, I only mentioned the food-bin as something to use for emergencies.

I suggested that cooks, instead of turning around and tossing out a freshly grilled steak each time you asked - A Cook was only "open" to serve anyone with the rank of servant during Dawn, High sun and Dusk.

Your argument makes it seem as if I planned on removing cooks all-together.

Heh, I really wonder if many of you have ever played even a middling good ranger or warrior with hunter sub.

With any that I have ever had, I could easily feed an active clan of up to 8 PCs while hunting less then 1 RL hour per day, And this includes cooking fails. With 2 good rangers or warriors even, there would be so much food left over it gets silly. And this can be done both north and south.

When I had my last bynner, Tarq, who was a warrior/merc. Taking 3 PCs with him, one being a ranger, and hunting for about an hour a day for a RL week. We were able to fill 8 large bags completly Full of meat...with ease. Thats like 60-90 items per bag. I estimated that as enough food for the entire PC population of the clan for 1 IC year. And if you have one or two good PC cooks, you actually end up with even more food then you started with.

Some of us don't like to overhunt so badly.

Quote from: fourTwenty on December 13, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
Some of us don't like to overhunt so badly.

I've always thought the people worrying about overhunting were a bit on the TOO realistically roleplayed side.

My personal view is unless the admin stop scrabs from being generated, kill the bastards!

JaRoD

Quote from: Cerelum on December 13, 2008, 05:30:39 PM

Quote from: fourTwenty on December 13, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
Some of us don't like to overhunt so badly.

I've always thought the people worrying about overhunting were a bit on the TOO realistically roleplayed side.

I always thought people who hunted like that were way on the H&S side.

Quote from: fourTwenty on December 13, 2008, 05:34:26 PM

Quote from: Cerelum on December 13, 2008, 05:30:39 PM

Quote from: fourTwenty on December 13, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
Some of us don't like to overhunt so badly.

I've always thought the people worrying about overhunting were a bit on the TOO realistically roleplayed side.

I always thought people who hunted like that were way on the H&S side.

When I have been employed to kill and skin things, it's what I did.  I never did it indy, not to the amount we are talking here, because you really can't make all that much profit off killing six scrabs in a single trip.  After a few pieces are sold to the merchants you're done and now you have all these stones of goopy insect parts to carry around.

If your employed as say a Salarri hunter where you feed six real people, plus countless vnpcs, you hunt every day you work, taking one or two days off a week for your own time.  That's your job.

JaRoD

Quote from: Cerelum on December 13, 2008, 05:36:58 PM

Quote from: fourTwenty on December 13, 2008, 05:34:26 PM

Quote from: Cerelum on December 13, 2008, 05:30:39 PM

Quote from: fourTwenty on December 13, 2008, 05:28:52 PM
Some of us don't like to overhunt so badly.

I've always thought the people worrying about overhunting were a bit on the TOO realistically roleplayed side.

I always thought people who hunted like that were way on the H&S side.

When I have been employed to kill and skin things, it's what I did.  I never did it indy, not to the amount we are talking here, because you really can't make all that much profit off killing six scrabs in a single trip.  After a few pieces are sold to the merchants you're done and now you have all these stones of goopy insect parts to carry around.

If your employed as say a Salarri hunter where you feed six real people, plus countless vnpcs, you hunt every day you work, taking one or two days off a week for your own time.  That's your job.

1 RL week. 8 bags of meat. 60-90 items. = Overhunting

Working enough in 1RL week to "feed an entire clan for a year" is not your job. It's overdoing it.

You say Potato, I say Pototo.  We agree to disagree.

JaRoD

Actually, there was a reason for it and VERY IC.

Second, Oooh, one IC day per RL day hunting...Wow, how horrible. Over hunting my ass, a good ranger can fill a large bag rather quickly and with suprisingly few kills. Four people taking 4 animals each is far from over hunting, you would not think a ranger going out 1 time per IC week taking 4 animals as over hunting.

Look, I'm not jumping on your case or anything. I remember Tarq and he seemed to be a very well played PC. But it's a quantitative thing. You killed enough stuff in less than an IG month to "feed an entire clan for a year" I don' care how you slice it that's overdoing it. It's not realistic and just because the code lets us do something...

Alright, let me put it this way. It is really not about the number of things killed, but more about the amount of items from each kill. I mean, an experianced ranger causes screen spam from skinning almost anything.

I mean, even a vestric is good for two food, and larger animals are good for 4-8..then you get to add in sellables from the animal which let you buy 3 times the food you got from the animal itself. If I am playing a ranger, and his job is to feed the clan, once advanced, said ranger could make a single kill per RL day and keep the clan fed for a RL week. And the animal of choice is common and medium sized, good amount of meat and a value of around 200 coins. then add in that rangers can forage for food...hell, if a ranger wanted he could keep a clan fed without every hunting a thing.

Though, I think if clan cooks were gotten rid of, and I think most should be. I think that Staff should go through and increase the meat yield on most animals. Like, take erdlu. You kill, you get a full skin and it only yields breast meat...Huh...by desc you should get a pair of hefty thighs too.

I'd like to point out a few things here:

Some clans' emphasis is on other things besides hunting. If they have to send out hunters for food every so often they have less time for whatever it is they usually do. Also, newer members of the clan don't really contribute as much as they eat.

Limiting the amount of food per cook puts limits on players, too. Half giants go hungry. They have to eat quite a lot, sometimes. People who play the game for longer stretches of time have to eat more than once during that time. Are they out of luck? Does this mean they'll need to log off sooner? That limits what gets done in that clan, especially if the person is in a leadership position.

I say leave the cooks be. Let people rp other things besides the constant struggle to get enough to eat. If I wanted to rp that I'd stay independent, and do just that. Clans feed their people, that's just how it's been done and what I count on them doing so that we can get on to doing other things besides running out for more scrab/whatever.

why not just make it an optional thing, clan cook npcs can be bought for X sid per Y days. Like an apartment. If not paid up, it disappears.

make it expensive so that having a player do it is preferable but not always necessary.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 13, 2008, 04:38:57 PM

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on December 13, 2008, 03:19:23 PM
The way they are now, I believe for lower-ranks like hunters who bring in masses of meat from hunts and such - The meat never finds any good use. It literally sits there for IC months before someone either pulls them out to spam-cook or junks them.

For the poll, I choose "Other" because I think it's possible to have a mixture of everything.

Leave the cooks - But put a daily limit to what they serve or make it to where they serve servant-ranked clan members at certain times, throughout the day.

Hungry but just got in at the middle of the night? Tough luck - That's why you need to chow in the morning when the cooks are making food en-masse for everyone.

Dawn, High Sun, and Dusk would be the ideal times, I'd think. Dawn - Everyone's up and about to ride out. High Sun would be typically slow if the hunters are out, but it would satisfy low-ranked crafters and any other folks who didn't ride out with the rest.

By the time Dusk rolls around, people should be calling it a day and heading back in.

If your starved but their not serving - That's why we have clan food-bins filled with, what would you know, FOOD!

The accumulations of food in the clan stores represents several RL years of play. If the clan members became dependent on the stores and hunting to feed themselves, I predict the accumulations would be eaten up in no time and clan members would start starving as soon as their coin ran out.

Think about it. Say there are six active members. So they go out on a scrab hunt. They'd have to bag six scrabs, skinning them perfectly, and cooking the meat perfectly, to have two pieces of meat and a scrab head each. After eating that, they're all hungry again in two hours RL and back out they go, two hours later. Oh, but wait. Now there's a heavy sandstorm going and no scrabs left in the wastes. What to do?

The game just can't sustain that level of hunting, and eighteen pieces of meat every two hours would wipe out the storeroom fast. Even worse if there are a bunch of stay-at-homers depending on the hunters.

I think some animals give ridiculously too little food. An entire bahamet gives a single slab of meat.

If animals gave more food, it would then seem that providing meat for a clan would be more logical and well received. Personally, this is the solution I prefer.

Quote from: Clearsighted on December 14, 2008, 09:41:01 PM
If animals gave more food, it would then seem that providing meat for a clan would be more logical and well received. Personally, this is the solution I prefer.

That seems to be in direct disagreement to what X-D was saying, about being able to easily rack up enough food from four or so animals to feed 8 or so PC's.

I'm chiming in here to add my support for an increase in food, especially from the larger animals. I didn't know bahamet only gives one slab of meat. They should give like... fifty. Mekillot too, of course.

Some animals have older or less well thought out skin scripts then others musashi. I could name some rather old LARGE animals that have no skin script at all. But I think almost all animals IG should have some meat added and maybe some other things as well. I know Sanvean was working on such some time back, but stopped. So certain animals like Duskhorn and Gortoks have well thought out skin scripts and multiple layers.

Other new animals have poor skin scripts or they are way too hard, I mean why is it you never get more then a hunk of meat and a single fang from a kank sized spider? What happened to the rest of it, the hair, claws, legs, other fang? And why exactly is it so hard to even get that fang? It is what the spider bites with, not like it is eggshell fragile or hard to find, it is on the front of its head after all. Giant beetles larger then a man...skin beetle, a shell and a hunk of meat? Was the rest of the animal made from air? And why is it the only animal you get breast meat from walks and you get leg meat from flyers and no breast meat? Exactly the opposite what it should be. Ever skin an inix, This is something bigger then a half-giant, but you get what, two 1 stone hunks of meat from it. I could go on and on and on and on and on.

I would hope, if clan cooks were removed, that before that happened a few (not one) Staffers would take on the job of fixing and fleshing out the skin scripts of the animals IG. Even though it would be a large task.

You should offer to do it on the builder port X-D  ;)

You seem to have some good ideas for what the scripts should be like.

After review, there are no plans to alter clan cooks and how they function in the current game.

This will be something to figure out for Armageddon Reborn, instead.

Quote from: Nyr on December 15, 2008, 08:54:33 AM
After review, there are no plans to alter clan cooks and how they function in the current game.

This will be something to figure out for Armageddon Reborn, instead.

Dammmmmnnnn... Nyr just told you all to F off!

JaRoD

Quote from: Cerelum on December 15, 2008, 09:04:51 AM

Quote from: Nyr on December 15, 2008, 08:54:33 AM
After review, there are no plans to alter clan cooks and how they function in the current game.

This will be something to figure out for Armageddon Reborn, instead.

Dammmmmnnnn... Nyr just told you all to F off!

JaRoD

Not so much.  Since I raised the issue initially on the IDB, I figured I should post the results from the poll and discussion with staff resulted in leaving this the same for Arm 1.