Alternatives to clan cooks

[Delstro]

And what about the clans that have low level grunts? The ones that -do- recruit. How many yes's and no's are there? Tribes wont have low level grunts. When the hunters for those tribes are gone, the crafter PCs leave.

[Removed IC specific information. -Nyr]

[Malken]

Only Ste'en Seagal an' th' GDB could turn a discussion about 'em cooks hostile!

I think ye're all jus' goin' in circles, now.

[FantasyWriter]

Clans with cooks accecable to everyone.

[Removed a list of clans due to IC information and specifics. -Nyr]

Are my numbers off that bad?

Nyr,

Was I correct in that there ARE more clan which provide for themselves rather than an unlimited supply of food from a clan cook?

[Kronibas]

I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans.

What I think is a damn shame.. is you saying you wouldn't join a clan because they won't give you enough shit.

Joining a clan should reflect what makes sense for your character.. and that includes a lot of intangibles.  It should not
be all about "gettin free lewt yarr lawl."

Maybe you should re=evaluate your motivations.

[Lizzie]

FW, you are completely not understanding the point of this thread, and nitpicking on points that have nothing to do with the issue.

The point is for Xygax and the rest of the staff, to figure out what to do about clans that would normally have coded cooks for employees.

In general and with the exception of special exceptions, which are exceptions and therefore irrelevent to this discussion, tribe don't hire employees. So whether or not they have coded cooks, has nothing to do with this thread. They're talking about noble houses and GMHs and the Militia and the Legion. As far as I know, only a couple of those do -not- provide their employees with a free access to food and water. The rest, do.

[Nyr]

Clans with cooks accecable to everyone.

[Removed a list of clans due to IC information and specifics. -Nyr]

Are my numbers off that bad?

Nyr,

Was I correct in that there ARE more clan which provide for themselves rather than an unlimited supply of food from a clan cook?

Tribes do not count for the purpose of this discussion, for the most part.  They would fall into the area of "some clans" in the original post.
That may not have been apparent from the outset.  Tribes are distinctly different from clans that have employees.

Obviously, for some clans, these ideas might have to be tweaked a bit to be reasonable.  For the most part, what I'm interested in is having your overall gut feeling on the matter, not in what you'd do specifically with each clan (too IC, anyway).

[Salt Merchant]

I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans.

What I think is a damn shame.. is you saying you wouldn't join a clan because they won't give you enough shit.

Joining a clan should reflect what makes sense for your character.. and that includes a lot of intangibles.  It should not
be all about "gettin free lewt yarr lawl."

Maybe you should re=evaluate your motivations.

Let's say you had a choice of running your own business or joining someone else's.

Option A: You're experienced, and you're able to run your own business consistently profitably.

Option B: On the other hand, if you join that someone else's, suddenly there are all sorts of restrictions on you. You don't get fed or watered. You have to at the minimum share the profits for anything you do. You do receive some pay (intermittently rather than consistently), most of which you have to spend on food. Oh, and you have to risk your life when ordered, even if you know more about survival than your leader does.

I'd say Option B sucks in relative terms, and characters in the game are going to understand that.

[Lizzie]

I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans.

What I think is a damn shame.. is you saying you wouldn't join a clan because they won't give you enough shit.

Joining a clan should reflect what makes sense for your character.. and that includes a lot of intangibles.  It should not
be all about "gettin free lewt yarr lawl."

Maybe you should re=evaluate your motivations.

if I am already a seasoned hunter, I am LESS likely

Please do me a favor Kronibas, and respond to what I am saying rather than to what you want to spin.

IF I am already a seasoned hunter, THEN I am LESS likely to...

Nowhere do I say, imply, hint, or insinuate, that I "wouldn't" join a house just because "they won't give me enough shit." And I resent you twisting and misquoting me just so you can claim that I said that.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Let's say you had a choice of running your own business or joining someone else's.

Option A: You're experienced, and you're able to run your own business consistently profitably.

Option B: On the other hand, if you join that someone else's, suddenly there are all sorts of restrictions on you. You don't get fed or watered. You have to at the minimum share the profits for anything you do. You do receive some pay (intermittently rather than consistently), most of which you have to spend on food. Oh, and you have to risk your life when ordered, even if you know more about survival than your leader does.

I'd say Option B sucks in relative terms, and characters in the game are going to understand that.

Option A offers nearly certain death in an unfair amount of time.

Option B offers the best chance to live long and wax old.


ICly, most Citizens would choose B, because they do get Fed and Watered and have a place to Chill at that is Relatively Safe.

OOCly, choosing B will get you into more stories and more group fun and more all around mayhem.

I really tend to be annoyed at how many PCs (not players) seem to think that life in a clan isn't 'worth the rules.' They live in a police state. Seriously, they are not used to rules yet? Bah.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And ultimately, I do agree that clan cooks should remain. I would just like to see the option for those clan cooks to have more on the menu based on food the clan-members might bring in.

[Desertman]

I'm thinking FW is basing his opinion on incorrect information. Perhaps if his knowledge wasn't quite so limited (which apparently it is), his opinion would be different.

And yeah for Desertman, if I am already a seasoned hunter, I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans. Cause indendents who are -already- good at what they're doing, don't need anything that the GMHs can offer.

Food: Already good at getting my own, and cooking it.
Water: Plenty of places to get water free if you're already good at it, no thanks.
Stable fees: Dood. I'm a *skilled* independent hunter. 20 sid stable fees are the least of my worries.
Salary: Uh, I get more sids as a *skilled* independent hunter in 3 game days, than you are willing to pay me in a game month.

That is why it's so hard for a GMH to -find- already skilled seasoned knowledgeable hunters. Because they're already doing better than what the GMH can offer. They join for the comeraderie, and they join because they're not good enough to be independent. And you're saying if you're not good enough to be independent (that is, take care of yourself, by yourself), then you aren't willing to hire them.

Has nothing to do with being a new player. It has to do with being a new *character.* When you just rolled up your character, you SUCK. Your skills SUCK. You aren't worth shit. Yet. Join a clan, GET good, and you will be an enormous contribution to your clan and worth more than your weight in copper. Maybe Desertman should consider not being a leader then, if that is his attitude toward hiring new characters.

And this, coming from someone who brags about how much he loves the Byn and playing leader roles? That's a damn shame.

I have to be honest.

I only ever join clans because I like to RP in the clan.

Sure, I can make about 6 times as much "sid" in a RL week as a indy than I can make in a clan for a month.

Stables, food, and water arent even a concern for me, if I choose to power play.

If I chose to power play, I could supply half the population of Tuluk with food and water from my one pc.

So I have to be honest, food, stables, and a place to sleep dont even make blip on my radar of reasons to join a house.

I guess for some people its a major feature, having those free goodies at your disposal, for me, I could easily forget they even offered them and never notice.

Also, it has nothing to do with skillz.

The way Rangers (most hunters are rangers) are set up, if you have ANY trouble supplying yourself, and three other people, from the very beginning, at one hour played, you simply arent very skilled at playing a ranger yet.

I find it rediculously easy to "survive".

Of course, like I said before, I  may have a slight problem with being "newbie friendly". I understand that not all players know where/how to get resources ect, even basic ones.

I also have the problem of never joining a clan with a new pc.

I always "Train" them first.

I guess for most people the process is...

New PC

Join Clan

Train While in Clan

Be Leet

Stay With Clan for Life or Leave Clan Now That I am Leet from Sparringz and Getting Free Food for Yearz


For me its...

Train my character up to a level befitting of his background.

Join a clan for no other reason than I enjoy the RP in that clan.

*shrugs*


In the end my point is...If you cant supply yourself or your clan without magick cooks, you deserve to die.

You deserve to perish in Zalanthas.

Why?

Because if you are a weakling, who lacks the ability to hack it, you deserve to starve to death. Repeatedly. Pc after PC, until you do learn to hack it.

(I have played far too many half-elves, I know my perspective is warped, but it is mine.)

[Desertman]

Tribes do not count for the purpose of this discussion, for the most part. 

I personally think that looking at tribes for one reason alone would prove useful for this discussion.

Tribes are in fact, a proven example of a pc populations ability to not only supply its self, but thrive while doing so.

The way tribes are set up, the pc's supply themselves.

It is assumed the NPC's and VNPC's are taking appropriate measures to supply themselves as well.

I dont see why merchant Houses and the like shouldnt work the same way.

The PC employees are responsible for taking care of themselves and supplying their own branches and units.

It can be assumed the NPC's and VNPC's are taking appropriate steps to supply themselves and their own units/branches as well.

We already have perfect working models that prove PC populations, even large ones, are VERY capable of taking care of themselves without clan cooks.

Calling it a tribe is an IC factor.

If you changed the name Tribe to House, you would still have the same end result.

PC populations supplying themselves.

It is possible, we have currently functioning proof that pc's can do it.

The question here is not...

CAN CLANS SURVIVE WITHOUT CLAN COOKS?

The question here is...

DO PEOPLE WANT TO BE FORCED TO SURVIVE WITHOUT CLAN COOKS?
It is not a matter of "Can it work." its a matter of "Do we want it."

Its been proven it can work already.

[Yam]

Paragraphs.

[staggerlee]

The game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

And uhm yeah... Desertman I honestly can barely read your posts, double spacing isn't like paragraphs.  It'd take a lot of strain off of everyone's eyes if you could break it up a little.  No offense, I just find it harder to get the point you're trying to make when the post gives me a headache.

[Desertman]

The game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

Yeah, I agree that my method isnt horribly "newbie friendly".

On that aspect alone, depending on what the IMM's consider important, my idea may be crap.

But thats just my view point.

Let them die repeatedly from starvation.

It makes them tough.

(Or makes them quit the game, but, every plan has as downfall somewhere)

And uhm yeah... Desertman I honestly can barely read your posts, double spacing isn't like paragraphs.  It'd take a lot of strain off of everyone's eyes if you could break it up a little.  No offense, I just find it harder to get the point you're trying to make when the post gives me a headache.

Use the force.

[Desertman]

Also, I would like to note that my view point is probably twisted by the way I like to play  my clan leaders as well.

(Double space, how is your meta-chlorine count this morning? Bwahah.)

I see people complaining that they are already "busy" with their clan leaders. Too busy to waste time running around making sure everyone from newbie Runner to seasoned Trooper is supplied.

I personally would LOVE to do that.

I like being extremely busy, and extremely involved as a clan leader.

I love it.

If I dont have fifteen PC's breathing down my neck wanting "this, this, and this," I am not having a good time.

When I play clan leaders I also log multiple hours every day of the week most of the time. So that probably makes a difference for my preferences as well. I personally WOULD have the time to take care of my underlings, but I understand that some people wouldnt due to OOC restrictions.

Its not that I dont think you guys that are "For clan cooks" are wrong, in fact it is proven clan cooks work really well. We have done it that way for a long time.

You guys arent wrong at all.

I just personally would have a LOT more fun with my clan leaders if clan cooks didnt exist. So, that gets my vote.

Its a personal preference thing.

[Yam]

The game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

Yeah, I agree that my method isnt horribly "newbie friendly". On that aspect alone, depending on what the IMM's consider important, my idea may be crap. But thats just my view point. Let them die repeatedly from starvation. It makes them tough. (Or makes them quit the game, but, every plan has as downfall somewhere)

Also, I would like to note that my view point is probably twisted by the way I like to play  my clan leaders as well. (Double space, how is your meta-chlorine count this morning? Bwahah.) I see people complaining that they are already "busy" with their clan leaders. Too busy to waste time running around making sure everyone from newbie Runner to seasoned Trooper is supplied. I personally would LOVE to do that. I like being extremely busy, and extremely involved as a clan leader. I love it. If I dont have fifteen PC's breathing down my neck wanting "this, this, and this," I am not having a good time. When I play clan leaders I also log multiple hours every day of the week most of the time. So that probably makes a difference for my preferences as well. I personally WOULD have the time to take care of my underlings, but I understand that some people wouldnt due to OOC restrictions. Its not that I dont think you guys that are "For clan cooks" are wrong, in fact it is proven clan cooks work really well. We have done it that way for a long time. You guys arent wrong at all. I just personally would have a LOT more fun with my clan leaders if clan cooks didnt exist. So, that gets my vote. Its a personal preference thing.

The force is strong with this one.

[Desertman]

The game isn't a single player, competetive H&S type mud.  Not everyone is equal or expected to supply themselves with food, there are structures ic that support certain people. It isn't fair. It was never meant to be fair.  What's so hard about that?

Yeah, I agree that my method isnt horribly "newbie friendly". On that aspect alone, depending on what the IMM's consider important, my idea may be crap. But thats just my view point. Let them die repeatedly from starvation. It makes them tough. (Or makes them quit the game, but, every plan has as downfall somewhere)

Also, I would like to note that my view point is probably twisted by the way I like to play  my clan leaders as well. (Double space, how is your meta-chlorine count this morning? Bwahah.) I see people complaining that they are already "busy" with their clan leaders. Too busy to waste time running around making sure everyone from newbie Runner to seasoned Trooper is supplied. I personally would LOVE to do that. I like being extremely busy, and extremely involved as a clan leader. I love it. If I dont have fifteen PC's breathing down my neck wanting "this, this, and this," I am not having a good time. When I play clan leaders I also log multiple hours every day of the week most of the time. So that probably makes a difference for my preferences as well. I personally WOULD have the time to take care of my underlings, but I understand that some people wouldnt due to OOC restrictions. Its not that I dont think you guys that are "For clan cooks" are wrong, in fact it is proven clan cooks work really well. We have done it that way for a long time. You guys arent wrong at all. I just personally would have a LOT more fun with my clan leaders if clan cooks didnt exist. So, that gets my vote. Its a personal preference thing.

The force is strong with this one.

You are just like that kid who grew up to be Darth Vader.

I bet Yoda would have killed you, if he just would have known in the beginning.

[number13]

The more restrictions there are in a clan, the more perks there should be. This viewpoint is gamist, mostly OOC.

Clans with next to zero restrictions on actual gameplay shouldn't have clan cooks.  Clans with crazy restrictions/responsibilities should have jugs of free water and NPC cooks serving up gourmet meals. I think a survey of clans and relative level of restrictions would reveal this situation already exists, more or less.

...However, IC events should trump this philosophy, at least on a temporary basis.

[Angela Christine]

Realistically, the PC population will never reflect the "real" population of a clan.  

For example, since roughly half the people living in the cities are slaves, there is an excellent chance that all the Houses (noble and merchant) have many slaves.  Slaves work for nothing but room and board, so they are great for the kind of unskilled but necessary drudgery needed to keep an organization alive, but that isn't worth paying a free man to do.  Since they can be raised in the clan they are also pretty good for extremely specialized "trade secret" type stuff that you wouldn't want to teach everyone who walks in off the street.  Not only are slaves raised in the house usually as loyal as the Family members themselves, they can be cloistered inside the compound so that they never encounter anyone who is not loyal to the house (both Family members and free employees tend to object to being restricted to the compound all the time).  But among PCs slaves are pretty rare, and non-mul slaves rarer still.  A "normal" slave role is boring, nobody wants to spend their free time playing something more boring than their real job.

Even among free employees, the careers of PCs probably don't reflect the careers of an average employee.  For a large organization with hundreds of employees, specialization is the most efficient way to go.  There is a publicly accessible NPC Kadian workshop in Tuluk, where people are making things out of wood.  It appears that carving wood is all the artisans there do, they don't cook, they don't go logging, they don't go hunting, they don't go making contacts in the taverns, and they don't get bored with carving wood and start carving stone or making feathers into jewelery just for a change.  They carve wood, and then the things they make are sold in the dedicated "stuff made out of wood" shop out front.  That is their job.


PCs are generalists.  They tend to do a little of this and a little of that, frequently dabbling in things outside their job description, depending on what needs to be done and what is currently available to do.  That makes sense for a small organization with half a dozen employees.  It also makes sense for a tribe, where most people are jacks of all trades, with very few specialists (such as a shaman or lore keeper) because historically you don't really get a lot of specialization of trades until after the development of agriculture.  

Generalists don't make sense for an organization that will have dozens or hundreds of employees in a small area, organization and specialization are key to keeping a large number of employees as productive as possible.  It makes perfect sense for these large organizations to have a dedicated cooking staff, it is much more efficient to have a few people working in the kitchen all day, than to have dozens of people making a rush on the the kitchen as they each try to cook lunch for themselves or their own small unit every day.  Hunters and grebbers should be bringing back food that they find, but most of that food should go into the virtual common pot, to be prepared and distributed to the non-hunting masses along with the un-forageable staples that the organization buys in bulk at significantly less than retail prices.  Having each small group buy and prepare all of their own supplies would be much more expensive and less efficient than having a quartermaster organize the supplies, and then have the cook(s) make enough for everyone.

PCs don't provide for themselves.  I have never once, upon joining a clan with a uniform, been handed a bolt of cloth and a needle and told to sew it myself, or get Malik to do it for me if I see him around.    PCs should be contributing things that they do not use, and using things that they did not contribute.

[Desertman]

Realistically, the PC population will never reflect the "real" population of a clan.  

For example, since roughly half the people living in the cities are slaves, there is an excellent chance that all the Houses (noble and merchant) have many slaves.  Slaves work for nothing but room and board, so they are great for the kind of unskilled but necessary drudgery needed to keep an organization alive, but that isn't worth paying a free man to do.  Since they can be raised in the clan they are also pretty good for extremely specialized "trade secret" type stuff that you wouldn't want to teach everyone who walks in off the street.  Not only are slaves raised in the house usually as loyal as the Family members themselves, they can be cloistered inside the compound so that they never encounter anyone who is not loyal to the house (both Family members and free employees tend to object to being restricted to the compound all the time).  But among PCs slaves are pretty rare, and non-mul slaves rarer still.  A "normal" slave role is boring, nobody wants to spend their free time playing something more boring than their real job.

Even among free employees, the careers of PCs probably don't reflect the careers of an average employee.  For a large organization with hundreds of employees, specialization is the most efficient way to go.  There is a publicly accessible NPC Kadian workshop in Tuluk, where people are making things out of wood.  It appears that carving wood is all the artisans there do, they don't cook, they don't go logging, they don't go hunting, they don't go making contacts in the taverns, and they don't get bored with carving wood and start carving stone or making feathers into jewelery just for a change.  They carve wood, and then the things they make are sold in the dedicated "stuff made out of wood" shop out front.  That is their job.


PCs are generalists.  They tend to do a little of this and a little of that, frequently dabbling in things outside their job description, depending on what needs to be done and what is currently available to do.  That makes sense for a small organization with half a dozen employees.  It also makes sense for a tribe, where most people are jacks of all trades, with very few specialists (such as a shaman or lore keeper) because historically you don't really get a lot of specialization of trades until after the development of agriculture.  

Generalists don't make sense for an organization that will have dozens or hundreds of employees in a small area, organization and specialization are key to keeping a large number of employees as productive as possible.  It makes perfect sense for these large organizations to have a dedicated cooking staff, it is much more efficient to have a few people working in the kitchen all day, than to have dozens of people making a rush on the the kitchen as they each try to cook lunch for themselves or their own small unit every day.  Hunters and grebbers should be bringing back food that they find, but most of that food should go into the virtual common pot, to be prepared and distributed to the non-hunting masses along with the un-forageable staples that the organization buys in bulk at significantly less than retail prices.  Having each small group buy and prepare all of their own supplies would be much more expensive and less efficient than having a quartermaster organize the supplies, and then have the cook(s) make enough for everyone.

PCs don't provide for themselves.  I have never once, upon joining a clan with a uniform, been handed a bolt of cloth and a needle and told to sew it myself, or get Malik to do it for me if I see him around.    PCs should be contributing things that they do not use, and using things that they did not contribute.

After reading all of this twice, I have to say that I am not sure if you are for or against clan cooks.

[Angela Christine]

I am for automagic-cooks for large, organized clans.

The gist of my post is that I don't think small groups of PCs inside a larger organization should necessarily be self sufficient.

[Desertman]

Yeah, for certain organizations it would be unrealistic to try and force the pc's to be self sufficient.

In other organizations, it would however be feasable.

Here is just a quick run down of my opinion on such clans and a short justification for "Why?" on each.

Allanaki/Tuluki Nobles = Yes = Paid for through city awarded stipends obviously.

Arm of the Dragon/Legion = Yes = Paid for through city awarded tax coins?

Bards of Poets Circle = No = Live by your talents.

Desert Elves = No = Obvious.

House Kadius = No/Yes = No for lower ranks, yes for family members and upper ranks.

House Kurac = Yes = They are technically just another militia like AOD and Legion.

House Salarr = No/Yes = No for lower ranks, yes for family members and upper ranks.

Human Tribals = No = Obvious.

Tan Muark = No = Just because we love them doesnt mean they arent just another tribe.

The Guild = No = Live by your quick fingers or not at all rat.

Templarate = Yes = Obvious.

Tzai Byn = No/Yes = No for lower ranks (Sergeant and below). Yes for upper ranks. (Lieutenant and above)

[Salt Merchant]

Tzai Byn = No/Yes = No for lower ranks (Sergeant and below). Yes for upper ranks. (Lieutenant and above)

That would suck.

Let me say it again. That would suck.

New Runner? No food, no water, you paid THEM 300 coins, you're not allowed out of the city on your own, you either have no armor or no coins left, dependent as a baby on the Sergeant. Why not just rename the clan the "Coocoo's Nest", with mama Sergeant out hunting all of the time to bring back worms to feed the ravenous fledglings?

[Yam]

You guys should probably stop posting those lists as they all get edited for speculating about/containing IC information.