Alternatives to clan cooks

[FantasyWriter]

Spam hunting all day to gather enough food to feed four people =! fun group interaction.

There are MANY ways to get food in Zalanthas that don't involve killing NPC animals.

[Yam]

Indeed. Picking enough fruits to feed four people can be somewhat more interesting.

[Haze]

I concede that some groups (noble houses and other groups that are not oriented around resource-gathering) should be
exempt from this, but the vast majority of groups within the game should have to get their own food.  If they're having to
buy this chow from NPCs, then they should have to pay for it out of their own coffers.  There has to be an overhead.

There's a huge flaw in this argument, though:  This penalizes players who are on more often than others.  You play more, you eat more, you drink more and you booze more, but your pay remains the same.  Meanwhile, the guy who logs in once a week for an hour is raking in the cash 'cause he has almost no overhead.

[FantasyWriter]

I concede that some groups (noble houses and other groups that are not oriented around resource-gathering) should be
exempt from this, but the vast majority of groups within the game should have to get their own food.  If they're having to
buy this chow from NPCs, then they should have to pay for it out of their own coffers.  There has to be an overhead.

There's a huge flaw in this argument, though:  This penalizes players who are on more often than others.  You play more, you eat more, you drink more and you booze more, but your pay remains the same.  Meanwhile, the guy who logs in once a week for an hour is raking in the cash 'cause he has almost no overhead.

Every 'good' clan leader I have ever had offered bonuses in addition to salary to compensate for this.

[Kronibas]

There's a huge flaw in this argument, though:  This penalizes players who are on more often than others.  You play more, you eat more, you drink more and you booze more, but your pay remains the same.  Meanwhile, the guy who logs in once a week for an hour is raking in the cash 'cause he has almost no overhead.

Let me clarify.. by they, I meant those in leadership positions.  Ideally, there should be more than one of these guys running around.

I don't think entry-level PCs should have to go out and buy their own food.

[Medena]

Spam hunting all day to gather enough food to feed four people =! fun group interaction.

When was the last time you played a hunter?  It doesn't take all day and it certainly doesn't require "spam hunting".  As an independent solo hunter, a PC of mine had enough food to easily feed 2 or 3 others.  She was on her own though and it would just pile up on the shelves of her apartment. (yeah, I know, sanitary eh?)

And I've also played as a hunter in a clan where a core of three good hunters could easily keep the clan supplied with meat and sometimes fruit.  The hunters were good at hunting and did it often because ummm... that's what they got paid to do and, again, no spam hunting was involved.  Also, group hunting trips actually do  =   fun group interaction.

[Yam]

I play hunters quite frequently.

Considering how skin works currently, 3 hunters (not guild_rangers) could not keep 3 other PCs fed indefinitely.

Hunting = fun interaction.

Being forced to hunt constantly while playing = not fun.

I've played in clans with NPC cooks and without NPC cooks. I no longer play in clans without NPC cooks (excepting desert elves and tribals). It's simply too much of a burden to feed and water PCs given the limited food yield of animals and plants.

[Lizzie]

Once upon a time, I was hired into a clan that didn't have a clan cook for non-family, and didn't have an automatic water bin. A few RL days later, my employer filled up his wagon with meat from the food bin, and left for the other city. Which was where the other clan employer was. And which was where all the other clan hunters were.

Me, being a brand-new hunter with no armor, no weapon, no access to house funds, and spent most of my sids on a brand shiny new mount, wasn't about to go running out by myself to take down a duskhorn just so I'd have enough food to eat. My rangerly self was able to get out the gate to grab some roots, because thankfully, I happened to be in Tuluk. That wouldn't have been an option if this was all going on while I was in Allanak and everyone in the clan was up north.

Fortunately, the clan imm took pity on me and saw that I was the only PC in the clan in that city - and also knew that -because- I was the only PC in the clan in that city, there was also no representative available to do all the things that clan representatives do in cities. So - she did a little RP promotion for my character and gave me some sids and authority to do some of those things, which would give me enough profit to afford buying my food, my armor, my weapons, so that I could actually get out and BE the hunter they hired me to be.

In the meantime, one of the PC leaders brought up a crew of hunters, who went to town on what was left of the food bin and emptied out the waterbin. Fortunately at that point, the PC leader was there...and was able to stock up on water. Except...that water was for bringing back down to Allanak. So not only did we have barely a sip of water left in the entire compound, we only had two barrels to lug to the market to fill the big barrel in the compound. Because the PC leader took all the other barrels with him. Fortunately - once he and his crew left, I was the only one in Tuluk again. And fortunately, my character didn't drink much.

The moral of the story is, IDEALLY things wouldn't work this way. But this isn't an IDEAL code, players will -not- play IDEALLY, and it is unfair, unrealistic, unplayable, and generally unwise to count on people doing the IDEAL thing. Because most of the time, they won't.

[Kronibas]

Having knowledge of this situation, I can say with certainty that a clan cook wasn't necessary in this group, because after a  game month the buffer filled up about two thirds of screen when one "looked in bin."  There was so much food once recruiting in the clan
began in earnest that it had to be shipped off to Allanak, which was actually interesting because it allowed for a portrayal of the distribution of resources that ICly should have been happening.

A clan cook would have made for a ridiculous excess of raw materials, and not only would it have added absolutely nothing to the
group, but also it would have detracted from the group by making things entirely too easy.

Characters aren't hired as hunters within a clan to mud sex or sit in taverns 90% of the time.

They're hired as hunters to portray their character, and when one is trying to portray a hunter... one should be hunting.  Which involves going out and killing things for food or grebbing for it.  And if you're in Tuluk, this is almost too easy as it is, anyway.

If you're starving or dehydrating in Tuluk as a ranger, you're doing it wrong.

[Melody]

When I play a hunter, I want to roleplay a hunter. I don't want to actually live the life of a hunter.

There are a lot of things to do other than hunt or mudsex. Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that. Maybe I have the time to hunt and feed myself, but certainly not enough time to feed other aides/merchants/agents.

[Desertman]

When I play a hunter, I want to roleplay a hunter. I don't want to actually live the life of a hunter.

There are a lot of things to do other than hunt or mudsex. Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that. Maybe I have the time to hunt and feed myself, but certainly not enough time to feed other aides/merchants/agents.

When I play a hunter, its because I want to actually live the life of a hunter. I really cant see how thats off. When I play an assassin, its because I want to live the life of an assassin. I dont complain that me sitting around listening to rumors doesnt leave me with enough time to go hunting. So I surely dont complain that having to go hunting with my hunters doesnt leave me with enough time to rumor monger and conspire.

If you dont like the hunting aspect of a hunter's life, which in many ways rules it...hint the keyword..."Hunter"...you might consider playing something else.

When I play a merchant/bard/assassin, its because I want to be involved in "Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that".

Some people just arent cut out to be a hunter I guess.

The next time you interview for a job with Kadius as a hunter tell the Agent this...

"I dont really want to spend all of my time hunting and supplying the House and its members. I need time to do other things with my friends and stuff, you know how it is."

Agents need a good laugh every now and then. They get bored.

[FantasyWriter]

When I play a hunter, I want to roleplay a hunter. I don't want to actually live the life of a hunter.

Living (RPing) like you were suggesting would be the same as being a runner in the Byn (being paid to be a mercenary), but not actually wanting to go out on contracts (being a mercenary).
If you are not hunting, you are not RPing being a hunter, you are RPing pretending to be a hunter.

There are a lot of things to do other than hunt or mudsex. Competitions to kill, rivals to assassinate, friends to conspire with/against, and all that. Maybe I have the time to hunt and feed myself, but certainly not enough time to feed other aides/merchants/agents.

If you are in clan as a hunter, that is what you are being paid to do.  If you are conspiring, instead of going out to get food, you are not doing the job you are paid to do.

You would, however make a great aid.  I would suggest assassin/house servant, instead of ranger/weaponsmaker for such a role.  IF the noble/family member wants to call you a "hunter" to cover up your true job, that is another matter, but if you are hired to be a hunter, you need to be out hunting.

[staggerlee]

FW you're still not really taking play times into account in your argument.

[staggerlee]

It's hard enough to recruit people into clans as is.  The perks are basically protection, limited prestige, free food and possibly somewhere to sleep or a low wage.  Removing access to food from clans is going to make recruitment even harder and penalize players with low play times and off peakers.

Furthermore, what happens when clan membership drops.  I'd hate to be a militia sergeant with no pc members, and have to tell potential recruits: "Well, we'll take you on and train you - no pay as a recruit, and we can't feed you, but once we start getting busy and get some more bodies in here we'll hopefully be able to make some coin and feed you."

The current system is hard enough on off peakers and those of us with limited play time. And I don't know if you've looked at the pay scales lately, but people in clans are a very, very long way from rich.

It also sounds like it would lead to a prioritizing of tasks that make ic money.  Tor needs to buy food? Suddenly they're out hunting and mining sid when they used to be lecturing on tactics.  The Byn needs food? Oops, no more drinking in the bar, no cleaning the latrine, let's run more missions that get us coin or food objects. 

I don't like it.  I think that virtually supplied food is a very important aspect of coded clans, it's part of what gives them the leisure to rp the roles they're supposed to be rping, and one of the few perks.

Quoted because honestly none of these problems have been addressed.

Now I'm all for the staff having an account somewhere on how much each group is paying for their food and water, I assumed that they already had that taken into consideration.  The thing is that generally for someone like Oash, the Byn, Kadius, Kurac, Tor, the militia, feeding those four pcs is a negligible cost after the cost of feeding the rest of the organization. So unless the group has fallen on very hard times there's no real reason for their members to go hungry.

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

A virtual account of the money spent seems just fine to me.  I know that a few months ago some of the contents of clan kitchens were changed to represent ic events, so I suspect that there's some of that already going on.  At least in some clans.

How is rp served by forcing clan leaders to buy groceries? 

What people arguing against clan cooks seem to want is smaller organizations that exist on a day to day basis, there seems to be a general disdain for large organizations that can afford to dip into the coffers to feed their members. That's fine, and mostly seems to have been addressed in Arm 2.0. But as long as this is Arm, I don't think those houses/groups are going anywhere, and it wouldn't make much sense for them to starve their members.

[FantasyWriter]

FW you're still not really taking play times into account in your argument.

No offense to anyone who can't play as much as they would like to, if you can't do the job your PC get's hired to do, then you need to either stay indy of get a job (like a crafter) within the house to where you can be productive and not just a house leech.  Don't make IC commitments that you can't back up OOC.  It would be like making a noble or templar who can only play two hours per week.  Once you join a clan or a sponsored role, you are expected to contribute to to the game world and your clan/house/city, not just reap the benefits of free food and water.

[FantasyWriter]

It's hard enough to recruit people into clans as is.  The perks are basically protection, limited prestige, free food and possibly somewhere to sleep or a low wage.  Removing access to food from clans is going to make recruitment even harder and penalize players with low play times and off peakers.

So not doing one of your jobs as a leader (to make sure your clan members have food), should be solved my having an NPC do your job for you?  Maybe the leader needs to store so that a player who has the time to do it can take his place.  If the leader is doing his job, the player with low play time is not suffering.

Furthermore, what happens when clan membership drops.  I'd hate to be a militia sergeant with no pc members, and have to tell potential recruits: "Well, we'll take you on and train you - no pay as a recruit, and we can't feed you, but once we start getting busy and get some more bodies in here we'll hopefully be able to make some coin and feed you."

When the membership drops, there are fewer PCs to feed, and give you the opportunity to stock up for the next batch of PCs.  Leaders should feed their minions or appoint someone else to do this for them.

The current system is hard enough on off peakers and those of us with limited play time. And I don't know if you've looked at the pay scales lately, but people in clans are a very, very long way from rich.

If you aren't playing much than you don't need much food, do you?  Someone mentioned earlier that not playing much, actually gave you the advantage of having more money per time played.  If the PC leaders or doing their jobs, you don't need an NPC to feed the people, if the are not, the need to be knocked off IC or stored, so someone that can do the job can.

It also sounds like it would lead to a prioritizing of tasks that make ic money.  Tor needs to buy food? Suddenly they're out hunting and mining sid when they used to be lecturing on tactics.  The Byn needs food? Oops, no more drinking in the bar, no cleaning the latrine, let's run more missions that get us coin or food objects. 

The noble houses and militias, as apposed to those clans who do have to to make money to survive, have money loaded into their accounts my IMMs.  If your clan doesn't hunt IC, then they have to buy groceries IC, so the PC should have to buy these groceries, the money IS loaded into the account for a reason, after all.

I don't like it.  I think that virtually supplied food is a very important aspect of coded clans, it's part of what gives them the leisure to rp the roles they're supposed to be rping, and one of the few perks.

Clans that have roles that involve gathering food, should gather food.  Clans that involve having to buy food to keep their minions fed, should have to buy food to keep their minions fed.

[FantasyWriter]

harsh desert world + murder, corruption, betrayal = free food and water?

I would suggest a mush without hunger/thirst code

[Melody]

harsh desert world + murder, corruption, betrayal = free food and water?

I would suggest a mush without hunger/thirst code

If that's the way you want to see it...

Armageddon's motto is Murder, Corruption, Betrayal. Not Hunting, Skinning, and Cooking.



Sure, we can do without a clan cook. But clans would become so unattractive. It gets more work than fun to play in a clan. It's so much more easier to go inddie. Have you any idea how difficult it is to recruit? (it is hard enough to make people stay alive without them having to go out and die in an attempt of getting some dinner)

[staggerlee]

harsh desert world + murder, corruption, betrayal = free food and water?

I would suggest a mush without hunger/thirst code

That's flippant, and a straw man.  Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  What I'm saying is that clan leaders and members of large organizations have better things to do than hunt or run to the grocer every day, and that it doesn't make much sense for a character in those positions to have to do so.

Not all clans or characters deal with the same level of conflict, and clan leaders and players often can have plenty to do without dealing with food or skills that bring a coded response or benefit.  True conflict comes from inequality, hierarchy and uneven distribution of resources, not necessarily a lack of resources.

Greater equality of resources means less conflict not more, and the documentation and game do not corroborate this "everyone has to struggle to feed themselves" theory you're basing your arguments on.  

[FantasyWriter]

(it is hard enough to make people stay alive without them having to go out and die in an attempt of getting some dinner)

Then what do you expect your hunters to do?

There are grocery stores.  What in the world would clans do with their money, if they didn't use is to cover overhead?

Gain without cost is unrealistic.

[staggerlee]

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

[FantasyWriter]

Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

What I'm saying is that clan leaders and members of large organizations have better things to do than hunt or run to the grocer every day, and that it doesn't make much sense for a character in those positions to have to do so.

It is THEIR job to take care of their subordinates.  if they can't/won't do it, they can appoint someone else to or died when his minions get tired of not being fed.

Not all clans or characters deal with the same level of conflict, and clan leaders and players often can have plenty to do without dealing with food or skills that bring a coded response or benefit.  True conflict comes from inequality, hierarchy and uneven distribution of resources, not necessarily a lack of resources.

Is not everyone having the same access to an supply of food and water despite rank or standings badly distributed resources?

Greater equality of resources means less conflict not more, and the documentation and game do not corroborate this "everyone has to struggle to feed themselves" theory you're basing your arguments on.  

There are clans who get neither free food and water, there are clans who get unlimited food and water.  This IS NOT equality of resources.  To me it seems that the only reason that some can, and some can't, is that those who can't have weaker leadership.

• If the clans that have to work for to get their food/water can keep people hired, than the argument saying that it would make recruiting harder is void.  
• Since clans that don't hunt/gather food, have the coin to buy food, then the argument of having to spend all their time hunting/gathering is void.  
• Since it takes less than a IG hour for a trip to the grocery store to fill up a large bag with food, the argument of leaders or those appointed by leaders 'not having time' for it is void.

[FantasyWriter]

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

Virtual money should be spent on virtual employees, PC earned money should be spent on PCs.
If there is not enough PC earned money, someone is slacking or embezzlement going on.

If the PC population of the organization is not able to support themselves, than the clan SHOULD be struggling.
The PC population, after all, should be the standard for how the group is functioning considering that is how the PC population (and subsequently the rest of the world too) perceives the group.

[staggerlee]

Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

What I'm saying is that clan leaders and members of large organizations have better things to do than hunt or run to the grocer every day, and that it doesn't make much sense for a character in those positions to have to do so.

It is THEIR job to take care of their subordinates.  if they can't/won't do it, they can appoint someone else to or died when his minions get tired of not being fed.

Not all clans or characters deal with the same level of conflict, and clan leaders and players often can have plenty to do without dealing with food or skills that bring a coded response or benefit.  True conflict comes from inequality, hierarchy and uneven distribution of resources, not necessarily a lack of resources.

Is not everyone having the same access to an supply of food and water despite rank or standings badly distributed resources?

Greater equality of resources means less conflict not more, and the documentation and game do not corroborate this "everyone has to struggle to feed themselves" theory you're basing your arguments on.  

There are clans who get neither free food and water, there are clans who get unlimited food and water.  This IS NOT equality of resources.  To me it seems that the only reason that some can, and some can't, is that those who can't have weaker leadership.

• If the clans that have to work for to get their food/water can keep people hired, than the argument saying that it would make recruiting harder is void.  
• Since clans that don't hunt/gather food, have the coin to buy food, then the argument of having to spend all their time hunting/gathering is void.  
• Since it takes less than a IG hour for a trip to the grocery store to fill up a large bag with food, the argument of leaders or those appointed by leaders 'not having time' for it is void.

I think you're misunderstanding my post.  Read it again.

Currently it's virtual money being spent on food, money from the organization. I suppose the staff could hand that money to the leadership of the organizations and tell them to make grocery runs, but I'm not sure that clan leaders need/want to go on grocery runs, or clan members need/want to wait for their leader to buy them groceries.

Virtual money should be spent on virtual employees, PC earned money should be spent on PCs.
If there is not enough PC earned money, someone is slacking or embezzlement going on.
If there is, what is it being spent one besides supplies for the people that make it?

Large organizations do not make the majority of their coin from players, and hire characters that do not necessarily employ coded skills or bring money into the clan directly.  I do not want the game reduced to a giant merchant/hunt off where coded skills rule the day and clans can't afford to hire people that aren't represented in the coded economy. The coded economy only works when you produce things that can be sold/bought from a merchant.

You're also not taking into account that the powers that be in city states are fantabulously rich.

[Delstro]

How is stocking up on raw meat more realistic than having an NPC that cooks them?