Alternatives to clan cooks

[Gimfalisette]

It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.

Actually the primary source of nutrition in all centers of population is agriculture. Hunting is supplemental.

[nyrk]

It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.

Actually the primary source of nutrition in all centers of population is agriculture. Hunting is supplemental.

I know, I should have said that the players feel that the proper way to feed a city clan is through hunting.  I think if the free food for the clans did go away, they should shift to buying food rather than hunting for it.

As a primary source that is.

[Desertman]

It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.

Actually the primary source of nutrition in all centers of population is agriculture. Hunting is supplemental.

Nyrk meant strictly for the PC base, not the hordes of NPC's and VNPC's.

We dont have an agriculture code.

Yet.

(When we do its going to rock though.)

But yeah, many PC's simply hunt to feed themselves.

Clans, atleast those without a legitimate sensible hunter base, should depend primarily on buying food, not hunting.

The militia wouldnt hunt, for example. The Byn wouldnt hunt. The slaving Houses wouldnt hunt.

Houses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

[Lizzie]

Desertman:

Houses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

Bolded for emphasis - that is not a fact. I don't know if saying anything more is IC or not, so I'll just err on the side of caution. It bugs me when people say "it's a known fact" or "due to the fact that" when it's clear their facts are incorrect, and not facts at all, but rather suppositions or assumptions based on limited perception.

[Desertman]

Desertman:

Houses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

Bolded for emphasis - that is not a fact. I don't know if saying anything more is IC or not, so I'll just err on the side of caution. It bugs me when people say "it's a known fact" or "due to the fact that" when it's clear their facts are incorrect, and not facts at all, but rather suppositions or assumptions based on limited perception.

Well then the clan that I'm talking about must have a super sekret cook that noone in that clan below "Family Member" has ever been able to find.

Please, I would love to know where they hide that cook. Can you tell me via PM? Since I have played in that clan NUMEROUS times in MANY different ranks and never once found this sekret cook you know about.

[Yam]

Buying food is seriously too expensive in its current state. Seriously.

[Nyr]

Desertman:

Houses like Kadius and Salarr who have a hunter base, would likely (some already do) depend on hunters due to the fact that food from their kills is a secondary product of the hides and other goods they pay them to bring in.

Bolded for emphasis - that is not a fact. I don't know if saying anything more is IC or not, so I'll just err on the side of caution. It bugs me when people say "it's a known fact" or "due to the fact that" when it's clear their facts are incorrect, and not facts at all, but rather suppositions or assumptions based on limited perception.

Well then the clan that I'm talking about must have a super sekret cook that noone in that clan below "Family Member" has ever been able to find.

Please, I would love to know where they hide that cook. Can you tell me via PM? Since I have played in that clan NUMEROUS times in MANY different ranks and never once found this sekret cook you know about.

You actually hit on a curousity that initially sparked the debate about this staff-side.
Whatever the outcome, there should be some continuity between different clans of certain types based on a meshing of IC realism, IC roleplay, and OOC playability.
As it stands now, there is no such continuity in that regard.

[Delstro]

This is my opinion on the matter.

If it is a hunting/providing house like Salarr/Kadius, it should supply bread-type objects and leave it up to the hunters to bring in the meat.

If it is the Byn, then they are fine. Since they buy all their food from the shit that went bad in Salarr's kitchen.

If it is the Miltia, the State should provide crappy bread objects and near bad meats.

If it is a noble house, the noble house should provide a small selection of fruits, bread, meat, etc.

[Lizzie]

If there's no coded clan cook for employees, then food becomes a *primary* product for hunters to bring in. Not a *secondary* product.

[Desertman]

If there's no coded clan cook for employees, then food becomes a *primary* product for hunters to bring in. Not a *secondary* product.

I can think of one clan where there isnt a coded cook.

Food is still a secondary product.

In fact, last I checked, which was recently, they still had so much it filled up about four screens.

(This is a good time to propose that "Food Decay" code in fact.)

[Desertman]

This is my opinion on the matter.

If it is a hunting/providing house like Salarr/Kadius, it should supply bread-type objects and leave it up to the hunters to bring in the meat.

If it is the Byn, then they are fine. Since they buy all their food from the shit that went bad in Salarr's kitchen.

If it is the Miltia, the State should provide crappy bread objects and near bad meats.

If it is a noble house, the noble house should provide a small selection of fruits, bread, meat, etc.

Look, I know I am a realism extremeist.

I know that what I propose is probably WAY TOO FAR left wing to actually be playable for a lot of people.

I think a good middle ground between what I have proposed, and what is proposed above, is a good stand point.

How about this:

Cooks no longer provide infinite food.

For example...

The Byn has one pot of stew a day (or something, this is just an example) and everyone gets a "ration".

No more going in and stacking up six bowls of stew a piece.

(You know how much a bowl of stew costs? Atleast 10 sid if its crappy...50 sid a day per mercenary on food isnt realistic for a mercenary company to be spending, plain and simple)

At some point for the day the cook will say,

"Sorry fella', but you got here too late. Be here early for breakfast I reckon' cause' were out fer' now. Or go buy yer' own."

Something like that.

I dont know, I dont really like this idea myself, just throwing something out there.

[Kronibas]

Real clans hunt for their own chow. 

But really, aside from maybe nobles, templars, and GMH family members.... the cook NPCs should be yanked.

They make for a softer game.

[Salt Merchant]

Real clans hunt for their own chow. 

But really, aside from maybe nobles, templars, and GMH family members.... the cook NPCs should be yanked.

They make for a softer game.

Why bother to join a merchant house then, for example. You've signed up to work cloth but they send you out hunting for you own food half the time instead? You're supposedly a junior merchant but you're required to take up a spear and ride out now and then, trying to skewer a tarantula, because no one is around to pay you and a single steak can cost over a hundred coins? No thanks.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That's what hunters are for.

[a strange shadow]

And when there are no PC hunters at the moment?

[FantasyWriter]

And when there are no PC hunters at the moment?

You spend the money you earn at the grocery shop.

[Angela Christine]

You spend the money you earn at the grocery shop.

Which leads right back to:

You're supposedly a junior merchant but you're required to take up a spear and ride out now and then, trying to skewer a tarantula, because no one is around to pay you and a single steak can cost over a hundred coins? No thanks.

A secure food supply and reasonably secure shelter/storage are among the main incentives to join a clan in the first place. 

Removing clan cooks could simultaneously increase the number of "real" jobs available for PCs in clans, and decrease the number of PCs who want jobs in clans.




Clan cooks are tricky.  It is silly that a clan cook will offer the same food to a Noble as they offer to a grubby drudge.  However, nobles often don't want to go get their own food directly from the cook, if possible they want to sit somewhere nice and have a servant bring them food, so servants have to have access to the good food. 

Then you get people going around with the backpack full of bowls of stew  (the handy thermos hasn't been invented yet, and stew is too chunky to go in a waterskin).  And other people getting free food from the cook and then selling it to a grocer.   

Those all seem like RP problems, not code problems.  I recommend clarifying proper use of clan cooks on the clan BB, or the clan web page.  Tell people what is allowed, and what is considered poor RP.  You may be able to talk a cook into giving you a "noble" style meal once in a while, but you shouldn't be able to con her out of 5 of them every day.  Most players will follow the guidelines, if guidelines exist.



Another option, if possible, would have a limit on how many nice things you can get from a cook each day, but also have an unlimited amount of hard tack, stale bread, or other unpleasant, low value food available.  So you can get 1 each of the nice things, which is more than enough for most purposes.  But you aren't screwed if you need to go on a long mission, because you can have all the hardtack you want. (The cheap slave/grunt/travel type food should only be worth a coin or two, if it is sell able at all).  If a noble wants to plan a dinner party, he will have to plan ahead.  He'll either need several clan members helping him get enough food from the clan cook, or he will need to spend actual money buying food (or ingredients for a PC cook to prepare food) which is a good idea for parties anyway.

I'm not keen on clan cooks providing raw ingredients, because raw ingredients can be easily converted into salable products.  Even flour can be turned into a variety of things at fairly low levels of skill.  Sure, most of those things aren't worth much, but if you can make 4 things, and sell 5 of each of those 4 things to your local grocer, then you can sell at least 20 things per boot, at no cost to yourself.






TL;DR:  I am an optimist.  I think that if you put clear guidelines for using clan cooks in a hard to miss spot, most players will use them responsibly.  No change to the cooks themselves is necessary.

[Ampere]

You spend the money you earn at the grocery shop.

Then you get people going around with the backpack full of bowls of stew  (the handy thermos hasn't been invented yet, and stew is too chunky to go in a waterskin).  And other people getting free food from the cook and then selling it to a grocer.   

1. Bynners walking around with bags full of bowls must have been hysterical.  Fortunately the code no longer allows that.  Some runner attempted that very thing, and the contents spilt into his backpack.  Deservedly.

2. This is something my grandfather told me; and old people are notorious liars.  He said that miners would carry soup to work in buttered paper bags..(obviously cold).

[Kronibas]

You've signed up to work cloth but they send you out hunting for you own food half the time instead? You're supposedly a junior merchant but you're required to take up a spear and ride out now and then, trying to skewer a tarantula, because no one is around to pay you and a single steak can cost over a hundred coins? No thanks.

If merchants are having to hunt and there's no family member PC to go out and buy food or assign people to make runs to
places where food can be bought cheaply (there are such places in game, we know), then something is FUBAR'd logistically within
the clan.

Usually when there's a situation like this, when there are no commanding officers about regularly enough to supply food and send PCs
on runs, food is the least of a clan's worries, because everything else is going to shit too.

But when a clan is functional, this shouldn't be a problem.  Personally, I wouldn't join a clan that didn't have leadership PCs or
hunters when it's supposed to, unless I felt like going that extra mile and helping build the clan up (which is a really good
way to earn leadership positions within a group).

[Malken]

Think about them who only be havin' about two hours or so t' play a night!

If they be havin' t' spend half that time havin' t' hunt fer the'r food, they might
as well jus' play a hunter an' forget clans.

[Lizzie]

Think about them who only be havin' about two hours or so t' play a night!

If they be havin' t' spend half that time havin' t' hunt fer the'r food, they might
as well jus' play a hunter an' forget clans.

Yarr. Srsly

[FantasyWriter]

Think about them who only be havin' about two hours or so t' play a night!

If they be havin' t' spend half that time havin' t' hunt fer the'r food, they might
as well jus' play a hunter an' forget clans.

Um... get food out of the food bins, that the PC/PCs responsible for keeping them filled, filled.

[Salt Merchant]

[If merchants are having to hunt and there's no family member PC to go out and buy food or assign people to make runs to
places where food can be bought cheaply (there are such places in game, we know), then something is FUBAR'd logistically within
the clan.

Usually when there's a situation like this, when there are no commanding officers about regularly enough to supply food and send PCs
on runs, food is the least of a clan's worries, because everything else is going to shit too.

But when a clan is functional, this shouldn't be a problem.  Personally, I wouldn't join a clan that didn't have leadership PCs or
hunters when it's supposed to, unless I felt like going that extra mile and helping build the clan up (which is a really good
way to earn leadership positions within a group).

So in other words we're back to the clan's moneyed members buying and providing food for the employees. Might as well have a cook. Especially since we know how irregular PC-gathered supplies can be. I once had a clan member in Red Storm nearly die of starvation because the powers that be there weren't available to restock food for over half a year in-game (no cook, you see). That was after exhausting personal funds too.

Or just throw your character away if the clan's PC activity withers for a while. Thanks.

It's funny how the products of agriculture have been systematically either eliminated from the game (Allanak) or priced through the roof (Red Storm) by the staff. Living in these places, you might really believe that the population supports itself primarily by hunting. The products of agriculture just aren't really there at a lower price than meats. As a result, advice to clans to buy food is going to be very, very expensive if done at retail value. Especially with all the meat-burning that would go on by inept cooks. I can readily believe a clan would set up a buying and competent cooking organization, just to keep costs down.

[Kronibas]

So in other words we're back to the clan's moneyed members buying and providing food for the employees. Might as well have a cook. Especially since we know how irregular PC-gathered supplies can be. I once had a clan member in Red Storm nearly die of starvation because the powers that be there weren't available to restock food for over half a year in-game (no cook, you see). That was after exhausting personal funds too.

Yeah, in some clans, the responsibility of feeding the group should fall on whoever is in a leadership position.  If they choose to
fulfill this task by spam-buying food from grocer NPCs, then they are robbing their clan of a facet of group roleplay that
provides a lot of potential for travel, interaction with their fellow clannies, problem-solving, and managing the clan's economic situation.

I concede that some groups (noble houses and other groups that are not oriented around resource-gathering) should be
exempt from this, but the vast majority of groups within the game should have to get their own food.  If they're having to
buy this chow from NPCs, then they should have to pay for it out of their own coffers.  There has to be an overhead.

Joining a clan =! an automatic free ride. 

Your example of a character dying of starvation is a good example of why there shouldn't be cook NPCs.  If no leader
PCs have been around for half a year, then the group they're overseeing should start to wither due to neglect.  The
state of a clan should reflect on how said clan is being led/managed.  That's what leaders are for.  If there aren't any leaders
or hunters around.. then you're pretty much screwed anyway.  Such a clan is like the freaking Titantic... it's all
going down, down, down unless the staff steps in and bumps you up or slips in another another leadership PC to
replace Senior Merchant Busyplayingwarcraft.  It sucks this happened to you, but cutting a major part of clan
logistics ain't the best solution.

I was over a hunting/gathering group for a while, and I'll tell you this from about three years of experience:

I had an NPC in an area not accessible to the grunt-level PCs that would dispense food, and I can count on
one hand the number of times I resorted to said NPC to sustain my group.  By refusing to resort to this NPC -
by refraining from throwing steaks and fruit and all that other good shit at them - I provided who-knows-how-many
chances at group roleplay for those within the group. 

The "problem" is what you make of it, and I'm pretty sure that this won't even be an issue if resourceful players are
in charge.

[Yam]

Spam hunting all day to gather enough food to feed four people =! fun group interaction.