Quote from: Dar on January 05, 2022, 09:34:18 AM
If opportunity to miss is still there. Especially if opportunity to miss is significant enough to really speak of. Then the opportunity to improve is still there, no?

I thought by a plateau it's ment that at some rather early point, people no longer miss. Therefore no longer improve.

It really depends what you are fighting. This is why Bynners all the time become 'King of the Ring' when sparring their buddies, and then get OMGWTFPWND by the first Baddy they fight.

Gith are different from Scrab, and PCs are different from Mantis.

You can look at it like this...Depending on what you fight to get to the level you are, you are likely to be 'best' at fighting those things. If you have a narrow focus on what you fight, when you encounter things that are not that, you will be much worse in fighting them. There is also a distinction between 'things you have fought and personally killed' and 'things you have fought but got away or someone else killed'.

When a Journeyman Fighter faces PvE stuff, they may think they are amazing at fighting. Landing every hit, getting great damage, and rocking it. Then, in a PvP situation, they face someone not only more skilled, but better equipped. Suddenly, their landed blows are deflecting off armor. They are missing more than they are hitting, when they are super used to hitting all the time. And the more skilled fighter is landing neck shots and doing insane damage, and hitting more often (!). You will notice different speeds of attack when you are fighting someone less skilled or as skilled or more skilled than you.

This isn't even to mention dual wield vs two handed and so on. Or Riposte. Or Hack.

So yeah, the combat system is more nuanced than 'I have Jman Slashing and I think my offense is good, fite me'.

I don't think Lotion's assertions are very accurate, and just some like troll bait. Any 'Heavy Combat Class' can and will get very good at combat eventually. You just have to have patience, fight things with real weapons, fight people that are much better than you, and slog up that hill.

Quote from: Lotion on January 05, 2022, 11:15:15 AM
If your character can't reasonably do what you want them to do (e.g. get weapons skills to master) then you should realize that it's your fault for not making a character that could get your weapon skills to master.

That's not necessarily true. Sometimes code mistakes happen.


My general point is this.

If people reach a point in development of their combat abilities where they simply stop failing on 90% of all the NPCs in the entire Known. Then higher level of combat development is needed for two things.  PvP (to get through those pesky shield use and parry) and for highest end 10% of NPCs that have a tendency to OHK a lot.


Don't you actually 'want' those highest levels of combat development to be gated via intense risk and intense effort?

It wouldn't prevent you from owning the 90%.  And those individuals who put in the ridiculous amount of work, or survived the ridiculous effort get to be known as the 'masters' of the sword.


How often do you feel masterful with your hunt on master, or your Hide on master

Haw haw. Master hide. You and every other miscreant in the city.

Let me state my minority opinion. I personally think that the combat system for the game is great. I like the idea of being able to improve your skills over the course of a long time. I like that a 1.5 year hunter is better than a 9 month hunter. I would suggest players gauge your skill not by apprentice, journey, etc... but instead by what can you hunt. I can kill a jozhal. Later a scrab..  later a beetle... later a gith.. later two gith. That's how I look at it. In fact, I wish the magick system worked like the combat system. Instead of practicing in a lonely temple which is often tedious and boring, I'd rather have to go out and use the spells in the real world for them to improve. Want to branch time stop? Then go out and stop time. Want to get to mon at create bicycle? You'll  need to conjure bicycles. If magick required more risk, maybe more people would play mundane characters which seems to be what the staff currently wants.

Veselka hit the nail on the head.

Dar: Yes, those highest level SHOULD be gated via intense risk and intense effort, much like in real life. I think the way that it is set up is fine, personally.

When people say Plateau, I hear that as, "It is now difficult to get gains."

Quote from: Lotion on January 05, 2022, 11:15:15 AM
If your character can't reasonably do what you want them to do (e.g. get weapons skills to master) then you should realize that it's your fault for not making a character that could get your weapon skills to master.

Not to be too offensive but this might be the worst possible take I have ever seen on this topic.

Your ability to hit master in a weapon skill should be limited (mostly) only by your skill maximum. Should it take a really long time? Sure. But every Fighter should eventually with enough days played be able to hit master slashing or chopping or what have you. Eventually. I'm talking nearing a hundred days plays eventually. But it should be able to happen.

Except it doesn't, unless you get exceptionally lucky or are a horrible twink who does everything in their power to grind against turaal's and other barely dangerous critters with high agility.

If you know how to train, it's not impossible, it just takes patience. That said, there are definite hurdles and a lot of potential for wasted time. You don't have to be a horrible twink or resort to ridiculous measures, you just have to know what you're doing and be lucky enough to have the right opportunities. There is absolutely a plateau toward the endgame. Once you hit that slow grind, it is about patience and smart training.

Quote from: Dar on January 05, 2022, 01:06:47 PM
stuff

This has been what I've talked about for a long time regarding combat skills.  The reason that there is a hard 'plateau' is because this is one of the few skill areas where master and journeyman are incredibly different.  It's a huge disparity.  -And it should be-.  But masters are few and far between, and legendary in their own right.

The problem is that once we revealed skill levels, people became actually -obsessed- with maxing it out instead of being utilitarian with it.  People went from sparring until they were the best one in their clan (which could be varying skill levels depending on the quality of your partners), to going out of their way to get skill gains (they risked death, but attempted stupendous feats!), to what we have now.  The attempt to do the latter from safety as much as possible.

It IS entirely unnecessary as your question states.  It literally has no importance whatsoever.  It actually works out beautifully the way that it is.  But it just became an obsession, is all.

I always liked graphs to explain stuff.
I made up these numbers.

This is a graph that shows the old classes and the new classes, and how the new classes start 'higher', but it still takes a long ass time to hit the top end of the skill percentage.



There's a few things here:
a) ArmageddonMUD does not have skill degradation.  Once you hit 'master', you don't ever go back down to 'advanced'.
b) Once you hit a certain level of proficiency, you've 'won' that aspect of the game.   Be that stealth, crafting, spells, combat.  You can't really lose anymore, unless there's some external intervention going on.   This is why combat scripts get added to the 'high-end' beasts of the game.
c) Combat is the most important part of ArmageddonMUD, as it is the primary way to kill other characters of the game.   The skill gains are designed to be slower -> It's a chance to go up every fail, rather than a guaranteed gain upon a fail.
d) As you get better and better at the skills involved, it gets harder and harder to fail the skill.  When you have a random roll between 1 and 10, or between 1 and 100, or between 1 and 1000 upon a chance skillup, those skills progression becomes harder and harder.
e) The game world is designed around players never reaching maximum.  There is a particular threshold of player proficiency that the game is expected to be played in, and you can exceed that threshold and 'break the game' as designed.
f) Characters that break the game aren't fun to play with.  They are only fun to play as.   Those characters ruin other players experience and fun of the game.

The game essentially has a 10-15 real year wait list to play your first sorc or psion.  I dont have a problem with a 6 month to year wait to pay a serious hardass killer.

I only personally see two problems with the system.  The more you abuse it, the faster you rise... bad design elements I will outline to staff in private with previous character examples, if they like.   

Serious fighters of most races dont really matter in the grand scheme of things.   Archery, backstab, poisons and spells matter.   Angry and skilled halfgiants and muls conditionally matter in fights, but not all the time.

So, other than design issues, I dont see a problem.   Your pc isnt going to survive a serious, prepared assassin or a territorial raider, sorry.

Quote from: Armaddict on January 05, 2022, 04:27:02 PM
It IS entirely unnecessary as your question states.  It literally has no importance whatsoever.  It actually works out beautifully the way that it is.  But it just became an obsession, is all.

Agree.

Quote from: Halcyon on January 05, 2022, 06:26:34 PM
So, other than design issues, I dont see a problem.   Your pc isnt going to survive a serious, prepared assassin or a territorial raider, sorry.

I agree, in part. It's harder to 'be prepared' now than it was a little while ago with the changes to NPC AI in how it relates to harvesting dangerous poisons. Still, a prepared aggressor has a huge advantage in this game, especially if the player knows how to leverage the element of surprise... but is that a design flaw?

Other comments:
Sparring can you get you very competent, particularly when you consider the ability to train special skills like Bash and Disarm safely. Advanced disarm + journeyman weapon skill is incredibly effective and a lifesaver in combat.

It's already difficult enough to get PC's out of the training hall and into the sands. I would like to see sparring do even less for weapon skills to encourage real adventures. When I started this game, it wasn't the byn sparring hall that made me stick around. It was my first trip across the red desert with Iltrin and some trooper dwarf that got killed by gith and Iltrin saved my ass.

Master warriors should bear the scars of a thousand battles.

Don't be the MMA guy who says he's the toughest guy in the world but won't enter a tournament or real competition.

Quote from: Hauwke on January 05, 2022, 03:00:12 PM
Should it take a really long time? Sure. But every Fighter should eventually with enough days played be able to hit master slashing or chopping or what have you. Eventually. I'm talking nearing a hundred days plays eventually. But it should be able to happen.

Blame oppressive mathematics, but that isn't actually how it is designed.  It is designed so that most people get to a point lower than that legendary combat character.  And for whatever reason, once in awhile there is a legendary character that has skills to a higher level.  It is not designed that someone just has to put in the time.  While that may be how you want it to be, that isn't how it is meant to be.  Again, blame math.

As for as magick, one of its issues is that it just requires required time to become the end-all-be-all.  It isn't like we are unaware of that as an issue.

The main issue specifically with weapons skills doesn't even seem to be competitiveness, either for PvE or PvP.  It seems to be that chasing the satisfaction of seeing certain levels of skill is frustrating, because it is hard to achieve.  I wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

I'd be all for removing the skill levels from weapon skills specifically.

Quote from: Hauwke on January 05, 2022, 03:00:12 PM
Eventually. I'm talking nearing a hundred days plays eventually.

I think this is a completely ludicrous expectation.

Quote from: Brokkr on January 07, 2022, 01:40:48 PM
I wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

Change the display for weapon skills such that "master" encompasses everything from current high-journeyman up. So it's like, e.g.,
   skill 0-15 novice
   skill 15-30 apprentice
   skill 30-45 journeyman
   skill 45-60 advanced
   skill 60-100 master

Calibrate it so that master is still an achievement (maybe not every Bynner gets there), but then you don't get further feedback.

It's not a deceptive label. It's like getting your black belt in the karate--yeah, you can go on improving forever, but you're more than competent at all the normal things.

This gets rid of the feedback that some folks are feeling frustrated with, while also giving us more feedback on the way up to the plateau (rather than just "apprentice for a few days, then journeyman forever").

Quote from: Brokkr on January 07, 2022, 01:40:48 PM
...
The main issue specifically with weapons skills doesn't even seem to be competitiveness, either for PvE or PvP.  It seems to be that chasing the satisfaction of seeing certain levels of skill is frustrating, because it is hard to achieve.  I wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

I think it might be better to have 3 categories, rather than 5, because I'd like to know if I'm better than a newbie.  :|

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on January 07, 2022, 02:47:53 PM
Change the display for weapon skills such that "master" encompasses everything from current high-journeyman up. So it's like, e.g.,
   skill 0-15 novice
   skill 15-30 apprentice
   skill 30-45 journeyman
   skill 45-60 advanced
   skill 60-100 master

Calibrate it so that master is still an achievement (maybe not every Bynner gets there), but then you don't get further feedback.

It's not a deceptive label. It's like getting your black belt in the karate--yeah, you can go on improving forever, but you're more than competent at all the normal things.

This gets rid of the feedback that some folks are feeling frustrated with, while also giving us more feedback on the way up to the plateau (rather than just "apprentice for a few days, then journeyman forever").

That works too.

Things are fine the way they are. Weapon skills plateauing isn't an issue of code, or how they show up. It's an issue of frustration at players not having access to opportunities to realistically improve those skills if they aren't lucky enough to be in a situation where they HAVE those opportunities, i.e. a suitably skilled sparring partner. Or, they don't know how to train so that they maximize their chances of getting a skill improvement and sometimes unintentionally make it harder to get those skill gains later down the road (and no, it doesn't require unrealistic behavior). The opacity around how to train efficiently is probably the biggest frustration. Improvement SHOULD plateau and slow once you're getting That Good. Otherwise everyone's a kung fu fighter and there's no sense of achievement.

I'd be willing to write up some kind of "this is how you train combat" guide so that it's not some guarded veteran secret and new players are on the same footing as older vets who understand the combat system.

Is this something staff would be okay with?

(source: I've had multiple characters hit their weapon skill max and have had characters with multiple weapon skills above journeyman, and I do not resort to "silly behavior" and am probably one of the most hardcore immersive RPers you will find... so I feel pretty qualified to offer this. It's a matter of continually challenging your character and working out drills that focus on what you want to learn, and combat styles that help you achieve your goal.)

Quote from: Delirium on January 07, 2022, 02:55:41 PM
Things are fine the way they are. Weapon skills plateauing isn't an issue of code, or how they show up. It's an issue of frustration at players not having access to opportunities to realistically improve those skills if they aren't lucky enough to be in a situation where they HAVE those opportunities, i.e. a suitably skilled sparring partner. Or, they don't know how to train so that they maximize their chances of getting a skill improvement and sometimes unintentionally make it harder to get those skill gains later down the road (and no, it doesn't require unrealistic behavior). The opacity around how to train efficiently is probably the biggest frustration.
...

I think that because the skill levels are visible, they are absolutely something that the players want to achieve, and changing the levels / removing the levels would change that behaviour.

How do you know you're not at master if your skills command doesn't say so?

Quote from: mansa on January 07, 2022, 03:19:55 PM

Quote from: Delirium on January 07, 2022, 02:55:41 PM
Things are fine the way they are. Weapon skills plateauing isn't an issue of code, or how they show up. It's an issue of frustration at players not having access to opportunities to realistically improve those skills if they aren't lucky enough to be in a situation where they HAVE those opportunities, i.e. a suitably skilled sparring partner. Or, they don't know how to train so that they maximize their chances of getting a skill improvement and sometimes unintentionally make it harder to get those skill gains later down the road (and no, it doesn't require unrealistic behavior). The opacity around how to train efficiently is probably the biggest frustration.
...

I think that because the skill levels are visible, they are absolutely something that the players want to achieve, and changing the levels / removing the levels would change that behaviour.

How do you know you're not at master if your skills command doesn't say so?

Because hitting master is required for some classes, and removing the skill levels will only add frustration.

Because some players LIKE seeing that progression, even if it's slow. I love seeing my skills gradually tick up, even though I am a primarily roleplay-based player, I am also an explorer/achiever. This would take that away from me. Why ruin that due to a vocal minority of players being frustrated that they aren't at "master piercing weapons" yesterday because they don't know how to train or are impatient that they have to slog through the plateau?

If you don't want to see skill levels, hit 'brief skills' and carry on your merry way.

I will straight up write a "how to train combat" guide (like the "how to be a thief" guides). Happy to do so.

I don't believe in gating knowledge behind veteran experience and familiarity with occasionally obscure code.

Quote from: Delirium on January 07, 2022, 03:23:26 PM
Because hitting master is required for some classes, and removing the skill levels will only add frustration.

Because some players LIKE seeing that progression, even if it's slow. I love seeing my skills gradually tick up, even though I am a primarily roleplay-based player, I am also an explorer/achiever. This would take that away from me. Why ruin that due to a vocal minority of players being frustrated that they aren't at "master piercing weapons" yesterday because they don't know how to train or are impatient that they have to slog through the plateau?

If you don't want to see skill levels, hit 'brief skills' and carry on your merry way.

All this.

On Brytta's post:
  skill 0-15 novice
   skill 15-30 apprentice
   skill 30-45 journeyman
   skill 45-60 advanced
   skill 60-100 master

I like the idea and would suggesting the following re-proposal, assuming a class can get a skill to 100..You would scale it based on the max.
   skill  0 - 20 novice
   skill 21 - 50 apprentice
   skill 51 - 75 journeyman
   skill 76 - 89 advanced
   skill 90 - 100 master

Quote from: Krath on January 07, 2022, 03:30:13 PMOn Brytta's post: ...
I like the idea and would suggesting the following re-proposal, assuming a class can get a skill to 100..You would scale it based on the max.
   skill  0 - 20 novice
   skill 21 - 50 apprentice
   skill 51 - 75 journeyman
   skill 76 - 89 advanced
   skill 90 - 100 master

Okay but that's exactly the opposite of what I was proposing. You want to give higher resolution feedback at the top end rather than at the bottom end? such that the typical plateau is high apprentice?

As a player whose buffest PC didn't get past, I think, one journeyman weapon skill, more feedback at lower levels is what I would personally enjoy. But I have no problem with the current situation.

Quote from: Delirium on January 07, 2022, 03:23:26 PM
I don't believe in gating knowledge behind veteran experience and familiarity with occasionally obscure code.

This would be super useful. Stuff is not intuitive.

Hey Brytta,

I can see how that may have come off as trolling lol. That was not my intent. Maybe if we break it down into smaller subsets and add more "levels"?

Hah, I didn't think you were trolling.

Hear me out, though...
piercing weapons [wek]

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on January 07, 2022, 07:36:53 PM
Hah, I didn't think you were trolling.

Hear me out, though...
piercing weapons [wek]

I laughed audibly.

QuoteI wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

I believe it would create more frustration, at least at the beginning.  I don't believe showing skill levels on anything did -any- service to the game whatsoever in the long run, but as someone (I think it was XD) pointed out to me in one of my rants about it, the cat's already out of the bag now; people already know what to expect from skills at each level and what it takes to get where.

That is not to say that I think it's a bad idea.  I will always advocate for it to be that way again, because the opposite of what everyone said when it first went in place is what happened.  'If I were able to see my skill levels, I wouldn't have to focus so much on the grind.'  But I do think it's more of a player perception problem than a problem that requires code changes/display changes.

QuoteI don't believe in gating knowledge behind veteran experience and familiarity with occasionally obscure code.

What kind of guide are you talking here?  If it's a guide that says 'go hunt these things, then when those don't hit you, hit these instead', or 'It can help you boost up to blah blah blah during training', then I'd say no.  If it's an in-depth explanation of how the code works, and how sparring works, what the 'plateau' is and what it means as far as being one of the best in the game, then I'm all for it.  Kind of surprised it doesn't already exist, to be honest. ETA:  To clarify, I don't think we need a deep dive on how combat mechanics themselves work, because generally that is just...asking for meta-game over roleplay [i.e. You shouldn't do that, you're gimping your defense by using blah blah'].  But a deep dive on how weapon skills are different than the normal 'failure creates skill increases', and some relevant, roleplay based tips would be great.  The gist of it is, I don't think we need a bunch of people making the master weapon skill dream enabled, because I don't think that many should actually be attaining mastery.

I mostly agree with the need for a guide to discuss in a more OOC manner the way combat works.
The 'Don't use a weapon in your offhand because it won't raise your weapon skillever' talk is silly as fuck to have IC